Example:
Say a relative died in a car crash and his family prays that he was killed instantly and didn't suffer in the fire when the car went up in flames.
Can it be that because of those future prayers the person was killed instantly?
I don't see why not, God is not limited to time. Kind of hard to wrap your head around though
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 15, 2011, 12:38:20 PM
Example:
Say a relative died in a car crash and his family prays that he was killed instantly and didn't suffer in the fire when the car went up in flames.
Can it be that because of those future prayers the person was killed instantly?
Or maybe it is the oposite. Because of the wreck the prayers were being made, not that it kept the relative from suffering but it caused the family member to seek God. If the relative didn't suffer it was because God planned it that way, not that the prayers kept it from happening, althouigh it is a possibility. I kinda of think what's already been done won't be reversed. Not that God can't reverse things, it's just that I don't see those things happening now.
CHB
I'm not saying God reverses things; I'm saying (asking) that God made sure the person in the car wreck didn't suffer BECAUSE He knew the family would start praying the next day.
He looked into the future and used that knowledge to decide what to do during the car crash.
It sure looks that way to me. I'll see some catastrophe reported and do a quick calculation of probable casualties in my head and then start praying. I'm often amazed at how few the casualties are compared to what I predicted [based on reasonable assumptions].
Case in point twin towers on 911. Twenty thousand people should have died that day, based on how many were in the buildings and how long it takes to evacuate those buildings.
I dont recieve that. From what I understand that unless it is His Will in what you are praying, then it is our will that Im praying and that is vanity.
Just the way I understand it.
C S Lewis believed this to be so, I think in his book "Miracles" though it's years since I read it. That God sees time in its entirety and takes into account the prayers prayed after an event as well as before. At least, I think that's how he put it. It's a concept that kind of blows my mind and could be a terrible pressure... should we still be praying for the alleviation of past tragedies? How much prayer is enough? :mshock:
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 15, 2011, 06:05:55 PM
I'm not saying God reverses things; I'm saying (asking) that God made sure the person in the car wreck didn't suffer BECAUSE He knew the family would start praying the next day.
He looked into the future and used that knowledge to decide what to do during the car crash.
The scripture says he knows our thoughts before we pray, praying. It could mean what you said, but also can simply mean that he knows what we have in need of before we ask, but we must pray and ask those things in the present, in order to seed the heavens and establish the earth. In your perspective, the reapear woul overtake the sower. But interestingly it says in scripture in the last days the reaper shall overtake the sower, so in effect it could mean that the harvest in the last days are so fast that it happens even before we sow the seed.
------------------
I have also thought this question wings but I have looked at it at another angle, and that is for out future prayers, or our present prayers to go back in the past to comfort those in the past. Sometimes I pray for bad times I went through in the past, so that the seed is planted in that time frame and Jesus can help me in those instances, so then my present becomes a changed present based on that prayer, where my past was blessed by God, whereas before it maybe was not. So by blessing the past it births a better present/future.
:2c:
I find it unfair that prayers work for others...
Some people are lonely and have no friends (that pray for them).
But I bet many prayed when Michael Jackson died.
Does God give more Mercy to people because they are famous?
It seems like like it if I read about praying for others.
Praying for others is asking God to give positive things to that person. Assuming God acts on such prayers it means He by default gives more blessing to the famous.
But famous isn't a synonym for good. Famous people can be rotten to the core. But still they receive 100s extra blessings and that good, but lonely man gets none.
:thinking:
Yeah but famous people also get cursed even more. How many attacks does the president receive from those who spit out negative words on a daily basis and even those who are clean slip up now and again.
:cloud9: He says He knows the hairs on our head. The Spirit prays thru intercessory prayer, and unless He allows you to know what He said, you have no idea who you might be praying for, even if consciously you started out thinking you were praying for a relative in the Spirit. You could be praying for someone in China getting ready to get hit by a bus; God is no respector of persons, only we are. So He pours out the rain of His Spirit upon everyone. My :2c:
Quote from: Cardinal on May 17, 2011, 02:36:18 AM
:cloud9: He says He knows the hairs on our head. The Spirit prays thru intercessory prayer, and unless He allows you to know what He said, you have no idea who you might be praying for, even if consciously you started out thinking you were praying for a relative in the Spirit. You could be praying for someone in China getting ready to get hit by a bus; God is no respector of persons, only we are. So He pours out the rain of His Spirit upon everyone. My :2c:
Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
I'd be inclined to think that they do.
Last Friday this one woman at church, who's specialized in prayer, told us that if we only knew all the (spiritual) things that are going on around of us, and how effective prayer is, we'd be praying a lot more than we currently do.
If I don't remember it all wrong, Cardinal has had a similar experience; she said that for a period of time she could see (sense? feel?) all the spiritual things happening around of us, and that if we really saw all that invisible stuff none of us could sleep well at night. Or something like that.
Quote from Cardinal
Aleax......this is a true story and I hope you're not offended, because what I'm going to tell you could literally save your life.
Before I came to the Lord, my step-sons played Dungeons and Dragons with 2 of their friends in our basement for a total of 3 years. One week after I came to the Lord, He moved on me to go look at those books. They had told their dad and I that they were like "knights and armor" type stuff. What I found was so deeply disturbing I ran upstairs to throw up.
In addition to an demonic looking Jesus on a cross, one page told kids to summon demons, another told them to where they might be able to obtain human blood and bones for their spells (graveyard, hospital). I waited for their dad to come home (who was not a Christian) and showed him the books. Even he was offended.
I made a call to a Christian friend who was going to come over after work to burn them with me. It was nearly the last call I ever got to make, as I met what they had summoned that afternoon. I fought it off (spiritually speaking) then went to take a nap. During my nap, apparently it was up to more mischief, because the Lord spoke to my mother at work, telling her "that if she didn't pray for me NOW, I was going to die". She stopped what she was doing and was crying and praying, not having a clue what for.
When my friend came to the door she told me what had happened with my mom at work, and we set about trying to get the books all carted out of the basement. My friend went down the stairs first, she froze and began to pray vigorously. Their "creation" had wrapped itself around her leg and she couldn't lift her foot up. It was trying to protect the books.
We finally got them up and out of there and when we tried to burn them, because they wouldn't burn, I became panicked and ran and got the lawnmower gas can and poured it on an open flame (paper towel burning). My friend and her daughter ran screaming, telling me to drop the gas can, as the flame went up into the can opening. I was dumbfounded (and dumb) and said, "God's not going to let me die now, He just saved me last week!"
As soon as I said it, the fire went out immediately and the can didn't explode. Even WITH the gas poured on them, the books wouldn't burn. Finally, out of the mouth of babes, her daughter suggested we pray over them. Duh We did, and they began to burn, but not without a sub-human scream coming from them and a greenish thing rising up out of them.
The reason we are told to think on whatsoever is lovely, of good report, ect., is not so we don't become depressed with the trials of this walk and life in general, although no doubt it helps with that too, it's because the soul, of which the carnal mind is a part, reproduces or gives LIFE (strength) to whatever seed is planted in it. The demons know this and know it's no different to what the serpent did to Eve in the garden. This is also why we're told to guard our heart with all diligence, because out of it come the issues of life.
The woman who had an issue of blood speaks of the soul of every man, because until "she" is totally consumed by the mind of Christ, she keeps reproducing the things that are NOT like Him. This is why the Father said man's heart only produces evil imaginations continually. He also said don't take an unclean thing into your house lest you worship that thing. The reason being, is because the spirit of the thing is hidden in the object. This is why Paul said it's not the idol that is anything but the spirit behind it.
What I've just shared happened only EIGHT DAYS after I came to the Lord, and began a walk of deliverance for others (particularly from these same types of spirits) that the Lord led us thru for the next 3 years.
Dungeons and Dragons relies heavily on info from the (out in the open) Satanic church, as from it's content it's not hard to see that their witchcraft and occult knowledge was used to snare it's users. Perhaps they even "tamed" down the net game, but the same principles exist. They seek to harness your "woman" (soul) to "impregnate" her and make her reproduce giants in the land.
A wise friend at the beginning of my walk told me that the devil never bothers you as long as you're walking in the same direction he is; it's only when you turn to go the other direction that you run into him. You may never see the spirit behind this thing until it's too late, because it stays hidden until you try to get rid of it. My Blessings to you.....
Quote from: Aleax on May 17, 2011, 09:07:41 PM
I'd be inclined to think that they do.
Last Friday this one woman at church, who's specialized in prayer, told us that if we only knew all the (spiritual) things that are going on around of us, and how effective prayer is, we'd be praying a lot more than we currently do.
If I don't remember it all wrong, Cardinal has had a similar experience; she said that for a period of time she could see (sense? feel?) all the spiritual things happening around of us, and that if we really saw all that invisible stuff none of us could sleep well at night. Or something like that.
:cloud9: She's right, and that's both good things and not good things.....they are there, but we just can't see them without the Lord's opening our eyes to see.
With someone as hard-headed as me, He had to show me the negatives first to make sure He had my complete attention.......He got it....... :laughing7: :mshock:
Interesting thoughts. A dear old friend of mine underwent chemo to combat Prostate cancer and I wasn't informed of the date until after the fact. Nice thought to think my prayers now can reach back in time.
And, not to derail the thread, but I love me some DnD. :Sparkletooth:
ALL prayers are heard and answered, whether they are before the obstacle or after the obstacle the need. There is only one prerequisite..................it needs to be the WILL OF GOD/FATHER. NO OTHER WILL has the ability to get it done.
We, family and friends can pray and we should, but the hinderance of the completion, is whether it is His Will.
Peace and Love Through Jesus.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 15, 2011, 12:38:20 PM
Example:
Say a relative died in a car crash and his family prays that he was killed instantly and didn't suffer in the fire when the car went up in flames.
Can it be that because of those future prayers the person was killed instantly?
You are thinking wrong about the idea of prayer.... :2c:
Jesus taught you how to pray...
Mat 6:10 'Your kingdom come.
Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.
The true question is... was it God's will to die instantly or to die more slowly? It's all about God's will, and not our wants or desires.... If a slow death glorifies God then it will be slow, If a fast death... then it will be fast... No matter, in the end we should pray the same... Thy will be done! :thumbsup:
Paul
Quote from: Pierac on May 20, 2011, 02:05:06 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 15, 2011, 12:38:20 PM
Example:
Say a relative died in a car crash and his family prays that he was killed instantly and didn't suffer in the fire when the car went up in flames.
Can it be that because of those future prayers the person was killed instantly?
You are thinking wrong about the idea of prayer.... :2c:
Jesus taught you how to pray...
:thumbsup:
Mat 6:10 'Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.
The true question is... was it God's will to die instantly or to die more slowly? It's all about God's will, and not our wants or desires.... If a slow death glorifies God then it will be slow, If a fast death... then it will be fast... No matter, in the end we should pray the same... Thy will be done! :thumbsup:
Paul
Quote from: Pierac on May 20, 2011, 02:05:06 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 15, 2011, 12:38:20 PM
Example:
Say a relative died in a car crash and his family prays that he was killed instantly and didn't suffer in the fire when the car went up in flames.
Can it be that because of those future prayers the person was killed instantly?
You are thinking wrong about the idea of prayer.... :2c:
Jesus taught you how to pray...
Mat 6:10 'Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.
But still we are told to pray. Using the right words is not really the point of discussion, but let's assume the right words are used.
QuoteThe true question is... was it God's will to die instantly or to die more slowly? It's all about God's will, and not our wants or desires.... If a slow death glorifies God then it will be slow,
Just like people in hell glorify God.... :sigh:
QuoteIf a fast death... then it will be fast... No matter, in the end we should pray the same... Thy will be done! [/color] :thumbsup:
Paul
In that case I have to ask if you don't see a tension/contradiction in the above.
God has a will.
That will shall be done.
It doesn't depend on what we want. Read what we pray.
Jesus teaches us how to pray.
But even Jesus' way of praying has no effect at all. It doesn't change His will.
:dontknow:
Simply, it is HIS WILL that is to be done.
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 20, 2011, 07:59:49 AM
Simply, it is HIS WILL that is to be done.
Simply, prayers are a waste of time.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 20, 2011, 08:22:51 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 20, 2011, 07:59:49 AM
Simply, it is HIS WILL that is to be done.
Simply, prayers are a waste of time.
1 Thessalonians 5:17 (New American Standard Bible)
17pray without ceasing;
Quote from: Molly on May 20, 2011, 08:36:27 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 20, 2011, 08:22:51 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 20, 2011, 07:59:49 AM
Simply, it is HIS WILL that is to be done.
Simply, prayers are a waste of time.
1 Thessalonians 5:17 (New American Standard Bible)
17pray without ceasing;
But why if they have no effect at all? His will is done no matter how, when, what is prayed.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 20, 2011, 08:39:14 AM
Quote from: Molly on May 20, 2011, 08:36:27 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 20, 2011, 08:22:51 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 20, 2011, 07:59:49 AM
Simply, it is HIS WILL that is to be done.
Simply, prayers are a waste of time.
1 Thessalonians 5:17 (New American Standard Bible)
17pray without ceasing;
But why if they have no effect at all? His will is done no matter how, when, what is prayed.
We are his agents, his eyes and ears on the ground, so to speak.
Praying in his will keeps us from messing up.
So you pray for your own benefit. Not for the person in the car wreck?
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 20, 2011, 09:07:34 AM
So you pray for your own benefit. Not for the person in the car wreck?
We can pray for anything but we are not God. Only God knows whether our prayers are within his will.
You know, magic works, that's why people practice it. That's the case where you are causing something to happen and you have no idea whether it's good or bad or in God's will or what the outcome will be.
So, if we pray in his will, we know he has us covered. Look at Jesus in Gethsemene.
when you should pray,you will know.I mentioned it before but I had a friend clear across the country thinking of suicide,while I was driving I had an incredible urge to speak out blessing and protection on him.It was so strong of an emotion I had to pull over.
I think sometimes we get ahead of ourselves and make up our own wills
blessings :icon_king:
:cloud9: I recently prayed with a new friend. I was struck by the difference in our praying, something I had never contemplated before, because I don't think I had ever prayed with anyone who was not Spirit filled before (at least not where THEY prayed, too).
What struck me as far as a difference aside from the obvious, was when as they continued speaking on and on, I realized that they were praying (in English) to talk to Him, but I was praying (in the Spirit) to hear Him. We were coming from two totally different approaches.
Can't remember where it is or who it was in there now, but there was an incident mentioned in the OT where someone asked for something that was not His will, and He finally let them have it, to their dismay. The old adage, "Be careful what you pray for because you just might get it", rings true.
I remember being stunned to read that when I first came to the Lord, and asked Him to NEVER let me have anything short of His perfect will, no matter if I begged with tears and pleading. He reminded me of this 25 year pact I made with Him last year; I had completely forgotten it.
So obviously prayer can be used to alter the outcome of a matter. But the thing we have to learn is, we can't out do God. Our "best" prayer, still may fall short of His perfect will for the situation, which is why we are to seek His wisdom and will on the subject. Blessings....
I think I know what you mean (someone that wanted to travel to some place) but can't find it right now. Not much to search because I'll be out of town a few days.
Totally off-topic regarding your question but perhaps useful for some: http://www.soniclight.com/constable/prayer/prayer.pdf
Hi cardinal,I beleive once we realize the "power" we have,we can accomplish a lot.That is why we have to be refined so we don't end up like adam and eve.I believe it was Moses that changed God's plan but I beleive it was the supernatural power he was walking in.
Jesus turned the water to wine but was this the will of God? or did he do it because he knew he could?and this in turn would stop the asking and asking?
prayers of a righteous man avail much
blessings :icon_king:
:cloud9: Amen....
Quote from: Cardinal on May 21, 2011, 07:37:51 AM
Can't remember where it is or who it was in there now, but there was an incident mentioned in the OT where someone asked for something that was not His will, and He finally let them have it, to their dismay. The old adage, "Be careful what you pray for because you just might get it", rings true.
2 Kings 20:6, Amplified Bible; I will add to your life fifteen years and deliver you and this city [Jerusalem] out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake and for My servant David's sake.
Commentary: Good King Hezekiah's prayer life holds a mighty challenge and a clear and terrible warning for every believer. In his nation's darkest hour (18:13-17), he prayed (19:15), and God performed a miracle, one He had foretold (19:20, 32-37).
It is a wonderful thing to have such power as that with God! But in this chapter (20) and the next, that power has become a terrible thing; for Hezekiah had put himself on God's "ways and means committee," as chairman in fact.
God virtually said, "Your time has come to die" (20:1). But Hezekiah's words and tears implied, "No! I want to live and have sons who will do mighty things, and I myself have my best years ahead of me!"
Read this chapter and the next, and note at least ten terrible things (see also footnote on II Kings 20:17) that resulted which only God could foresee and that only Hezekiah's death executed at the time God intended it would have prevented. But Hezekiah interfered. The only safe prayer policy is "God's will; nothing more; nothing less; nothing else; at any cost" (see Luke 22:42, Acts 21:14).
WELL GLORY!!!!
:cloud9: Exactly..... :thumbsup:
BRO T aka WW ,,
the prayers what the do that I believe it is to increase our faith in GOD ..you just know when He answers them and you cannot deny what God has done and you seen it for yourself
anyone who dies in the flesh /corruption will be raised into incorruption
where there is no knowledge of LAW there is no sin inputed ... many have died innocent
before God That is why GOD is such a good judge over all His creation , it still serves His purpose
prayer are just talking to God / Jesus ,,,, as we do with one another ,, there is the Spirit of God in them all we are all connected .....its the Christ in them raised up to Glorify God in the earth to me
you can share your thoughts on this concept ... :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on June 02, 2011, 02:17:05 AM
BRO T aka WW ,,
the prayers what the do that I believe it is to increase our faith in GOD ..you just know when He answers them and you cannot deny what God has done and you seen it for yourself
that really hit home, rang true. thanks rosie :thumbsup:
Sis Rosey aka Rosey :winkgrin:
Quotethe prayers what the do that I believe it is to increase our faith in GOD
Did Jesus pray because His faith in God needed improvement?
Quoteanyone who dies in the flesh /corruption will be raised into incorruption where there is no knowledge of LAW there is no sin inputed ... many have died innocent before God
Who is given little is required of little. But we also have verses like "when I was hungry/thirsty you gave me food/water" I think those laws apply to everyone. Not just believers.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 02, 2011, 07:41:16 AM
Sis Rosey aka Rosey :winkgrin:
Quotethe prayers what the do that I believe it is to increase our faith in GOD
Did Jesus pray because His faith in God needed improvement?
Quoteanyone who dies in the flesh /corruption will be raised into incorruption where there is no knowledge of LAW there is no sin inputed ... many have died innocent before God
Who is given little is required of little. But we also have verses like "when I was hungry/thirsty you gave me food/water" I think those laws apply to everyone. Not just believers.
Good morin to ya by the way ... :icon_flower: Jesus always prayed /Talked to His Father because they were close :HeartThrob:
Jhn 11:42
And I knew that thou hearest me always:
but because of the people which stand by I said [it], that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
But we also have verses like "when I was hungry/thirsty you gave me food/water" I think those laws apply to everyone. Not just believers
yes according to HOW YOU BELIEVE :thumbsup: not everyone has the same measures of faith
the man who asked Jesus to increase his faith because he knew his lack Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven
give good things to them that ask him? Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly,
according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. :HeartThrob: oh my lol , I try but :dontknow: