.... with all its sorrows and suffering if you believed this is all there is?
That's what I most wonder about atheists -- how they can enjoy life without believing in the promises of God.
I would have to conclude that there is no justice in the universe if I believed this life/world is all there is. And in that case, why would men concern themselves with any sense of desiring justice if the universe itself is unjust?
Would it not be better to never have been born than to be born only for knowing about the things of this world?
That's my question today for those who deny the existence of God.
If this universe is all there is? Sounds like Ultra [Caleb Rich, Hosea Ballou, Thomas Whittemore, perhaps J.W. Hanson type] Universalists. Full preterists seem to go there as well. Not entirely sure that in my Postmillenialism that I'm not looking at a version of it. I'm not sure that an argument for this life being all there is would necessitate a "there is no God" argument. The "there is no God" argument seems to stand by itself alone with no foundation, though it'll rant and rave that this life is all that there is. That would be nothing to the point as to whether or not there were a God. That's as conclusive in the matter as saying "Green Eggs And Ham!!!" and you're left going "and......???? your point??????" To say that this life, this world, this universe is all that there is wouldn't be an argument against a transcendent God. It would speak to the inherent limitations of a human being and would only indirectly be an attack on God by bringing into question what is meant by our being in the image of God. Then again, a photo of either you or I is an image of us. Doesn't need to be beyond three demensional to avoid doing either of us wrong, so......
Atheism isn't really based upon anything but an opinion, emotions, and an interpretation of a lack of Experiences or of troubling experiences.
Paul spoke "Oh that I might apprehend "that' for which I am
"apprehended" .........
When we "apprehend" it, I think it makes this world dim.
Remember that little song:
Turn your eyes upon Jesus!
Look full in His Wonderful face!
And the things of earth, will grow strangely dim!
In the Light of His glory and grace!
Somebody was sure in the Spirit.........when they wrote that song!
Love you Anne Hamon!
And so, "if" that is not our current situation, let us remember,
how did Stephen "endure" his stoning, and at the same time,
LOOK UP and see Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father.
Somebody had changed his focus.
I do not believe it was Stephen.
He did NOT change his"own" focus.
Somebody bigger than you or I?
How do we get ours changed?
Well we can always ask knock seek...............
God will make a record of it.
Despise not the day of "small things" ..........asking, knocking,
seeking............"
Trust in the Lord.......with all heart.........and lean NOT to your
own understanding.
God is in control........all that He does is good. He shakes, but
why? Why is He shaking this world? SO THAT..........so that.......
so that..........."that" which cannot be shaken........will remain!
REMAIN> Stay put! Endure. etc.
It's in you. I've seen it. I've heard it. I've read it. It is
greater than the raging waters. It is the WATERS from Above.
Hang on..........hang on.......and continue .......in His Word.
It will NOT return void, but it shall accomplish that for which
HE sends it.
River flowing....girl.
I'm not sure if I understand Martin's response. I'll have to re-read it again and ponder it. The reason I posted this was due to the fact that atheism is on the rise in America and I just wonder how the atheist can endure the uncertainty of life's circumstances with all the violence and death surrounding him/her. If we are all dealt a different hand from birth and this lifetime is all there is, it certainly would appear to be unjust. Yet the atheists I know do claim to have a sense of morality and justice. They believe law breakers should be punished, etc... My point is that it seems like you'd have to have a very arrogant type of faith to be a strongly convinced atheist. Does this make sense to any of you what I'm saying?
QuoteMy point is that it seems like you'd have to have a very arrogant type of faith to be a strongly convinced atheist. Does this make sense to any of you what I'm saying?
Yes.
Romans 2:14
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on March 12, 2009, 07:29:10 PM
Yet the atheists I know do claim to have a sense of morality and justice.
well I think all humans have morality and justice built into us...circumstances and upbringing tend to undermine these in many cases
as for the history of "Christian" justice...one only needs to see what's happening now...self-proclaimed "reborn Christians" taking up the sword to go murder millions of people in other lands..."change we can believe in" resulting in more war (the afghanistan "surge")...no wonder people do not want to associate themselves with a "Christian" god...and all these looney pastors calling for more death and destruction...does anyone blame people for becoming atheists with the examples set by "Christians"?
Quote from: noname on March 18, 2009, 04:10:26 PM
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on March 12, 2009, 07:29:10 PM
Yet the atheists I know do claim to have a sense of morality and justice.
well I think all humans have morality and justice built into us...circumstances and upbringing tend to undermine these in many cases
as for the history of "Christian" justice...one only needs to see what's happening now...self-proclaimed "reborn Christians" taking up the sword to go murder millions of people in other lands..."change we can believe in" resulting in more war (the afghanistan "surge")...no wonder people do not want to associate themselves with a "Christian" god...and all these looney pastors calling for more death and destruction...does anyone blame people for becoming atheists with the examples set by "Christians"?
Yes, I blame them lol.
If they would study the New Testament instead of rejecting it based on false prophets, we would be living in a better world.
Molly,
Most people don't study besides in the area of a their profession.
And that should be enough. Do I have to be a MD to get a bypass?
Do I have to be a mechanic if I own a car?
Nope.
People should be able to rely on preachers.
Religion (and politics) seems to be the only area where truth isn't that important. Just parroting what the elite tells you is enough. If you don't agree you can find a denomination that suits you.
I can understand they don't like religion when they look at its past. I feel a link with then. Dunno why... :laughing7:
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 18, 2009, 05:55:03 PM
Molly,
Most people don't study besides in the area of a their profession.
You do. :HeartThrob:
It's not the Bible that is the problem. It's men, and their desire for power and domination over other men, at any expense. And, they will use anything, including God's word, to that end.
It is clear to me that my initial question and the point I wanted to make was not stated well enough to be understood.
I did not start this thread in order to "condemn" atheists, but rather to question their reasoning which seems faulty to me, and here is why:
Atheists, like everyone else DO have the inner witness of right and wrong or of justice and injustice. Yet if I were an atheist, (assuming that by definition that as an atheist, I believe this life is 'all there is' - when we die, we'll just be dead or no longer exist) then I'd have to conclude that the whole universe is unjust since I could see with my eyes that this world is unjust (lots of people "get away" with sin and with taking advantage of others, stealing, lying, cheating. ) Many people die without ever "dealing with God about their sin problem" and without being punished by the powers that be in this world for unlawful deeds. So how does the atheist then conclude that there is any such thing as intrinsic justice. In fact, doesn't the atheist wonder why he/she is concerned with justice (where does that concern come from?). The scriptures say, "The fool says in his heart, there is no God." And for the reasons I stated, I agree that it is foolish to say such a thing in one's heart - foolish and arrogant and self-deceiving.
So, my point was: If I believed that there was no God and nothing after this fleeting time we have on earth, I would be very sad indeed because I would have to conclude that there is no justice nor ever will there be. I hope this better explains my initial point.
Anne
no offense, but that existence ends forever with death is way better than what modern Christian mainstream believes, I personally would have no problem if there is no afterlife (but I was suicidal, so don't give anything on my opinion regarding this).
but I think many atheists (or at least agnostics) believe in an afterlife, reincarnation, karma, immortal soul etc. for example, they just don't believe in the Bible or in a personal God.
Ann I think atheists on average are equally loving/hating/just/unfair as the average Christian.
Some would say they are almost human :laughing7:
A pure atheist just believes/knows we are just a chemical reaction. When that chemical reaction ends, it simply ended.
Everything else strickly speaking isn't an atheist. But still many call themselfs that.
They say things like: Maybe, perhaps, unlikely but there possibly is a God. A sadist I don't want to serve.
Just like only a few people are totally a-politics.
Many other refuse to vote because they don't want to be a pon in a web of lies. They say "I don't care" but they do. They just want to play the game with the currebt rules.
I'm sure there would have been less (sub-)atheists if there was peaceful church history.
Religion=pope=pedophile=war=greed=oppression so I'm an atheist type of reasoning.
Quote from: sven on March 18, 2009, 06:48:55 PM
no offense, but that existence ends forever with death is way better than what modern Christian mainstream believes,
Yes, I find a lot of what mainstream Christianity believes and teaches quite depressing as well. I think, however, if this world exists with such the magnitude of suffering for billions followed by non-existence, that is rather depressing to me. I suppose because I would feel like "What was the point?" I don't like to entertain the thought that people and animals suffer without a very good reason.
Anne