What are members' ideas for Christian activism?
While waiting to hear from you, here's my present idea.
I'm trying to hire a recruiter to start a weekly anti-war, anti-corruption young people's local gathering (St. Louis area), as well as a weekly online discussion. The latter would be for sharing ideas with people in other areas for starting similar gatherings there.
The gatherings have to be fun, informative and inspiring. What else?
God puts human governments in place and they all either start corrupt or become corrupt. (The exceptions were the good kings mentioned in 1+2 kings) God warned us not to desire a human ruler.
2 of the apostles were originally part of the same type of group (except they advocated violent overthrow of the government and originally thought messiah would lead them into battle to defeat the existing government.)
They were zealotes from which we get the term zealot.
My point is, you hear about that at the beginning of their discipleship as where they came from and then never hear it mentioned again.
However, if you believe this is what God wants you to do for him rather than your distaste for corrupt government
then it's a good thing.
* It's disappointing that no one around here seems interested in action. Just talk.
our gatherings here in the spirit are fun,imforative and inspiring....there is a fire come down from heaven right here burning tares..it IS
come down by CHRIST [I}S [AN]D ACTIVE if you have eyes to see
Jesus said that if His Kingdom were of this world, He and His followers would fight. They did not.
However, His Kingdom is of the world to come, the Stone Kingdom which will not be set up by the mere arm of flesh, or even co-existing with the kingdoms of this present world.
You can not set up the Kingdom of God by the arm of flesh, and certainly not here in the territories of the Kingdoms of God's Enemies.
However, the issues of the day can be well used to raise consciousness, and spread the good news of the Kingdom.
Sheila amen! Again! :HeartThrob: (Made me cry lol)
QuoteLS said: Jesus said that if His Kingdom were of this world, He and His followers would fight.
When he said "this world" here, Jesus was apparently talking about the Beastly government of Rome and errant Judaism that dominated Israel. He wasn't talking about the whole planet, Earth. He said to pray that His Kingdom come on Earth as it is in Heaven. And Rev. 11:15 says the governments of man are to become governments of God.
I believe it wasn't kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven, but may your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Quote from: Lloyd on September 24, 2012, 01:46:05 PM
QuoteLS said: Jesus said that if His Kingdom were of this world, He and His followers would fight.
When he said "this world" here, Jesus was apparently talking about the Beastly government of Rome and errant Judaism that dominated Israel. He wasn't talking about the whole planet, Earth. He said to pray that His Kingdom come on Earth as it is in Heaven. And Rev. 11:15 says the governments of man are to become governments of God.
That's right. Thy kingdom come--Thy will be done --on earth as it is in heaven.
we ar not against flesh and blood but powers and prince-i-palities in High place...like the ones that convince christians muslims and jews that killing their enemies
is the will of God. Satan has gone forth and deceived all the nations[kings of the earth] to fight against this REVELATION OF CHRIST that all MEN
ARE SAVED AND RECEIVE THE INHERITANCE THROUGH THE PROMISED SEED...So they may quit this warring over it..and devouring of one
another over it....they will not win.... THY KINGDOM COME....THY WILL BE DONE
HE will settled disputes between strong nations
Quote from: Sheilawe ar not against flesh and blood but powers and prince-i-palities in High place...
It's all supernatural, playing itself out on this earth.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.
--Dan 8
it appears to me the fullness of the gentiles has come..and the time of trampling of the outer court has come to an end....the uncircumcized in heart
those without Love for their brothers...seed of Abraham...all of them.... Read Ezekiel...woe to the city of bloodshed[Christians Muslims and jews who
spill blood over fighting for that land in Jerusalem] deceived of Satan to fight against the camp of the Holy city in the earth.....
I think the trampling of the outer court begins when Jerusalem is invaded by the abomination that causes desolation.
The time of the gentiles will end when Jacob's trouble begins.
We who are in Christ are no longer gentiles.
presumptousness is the same as witch CRAFT[babylon's spell] which sits atop the beastly kingdoms/fornicate with kings of the earth. O'presumptous one
I sit a queen[heavenly rule]...by 'peace' shall destroy many=compromise in lying covenant? three unclean inspired expressions= three 'kings"
from the east[christian muslims and jews who do not obey Christ..the KING OF KINGS
the abomination that causes desolation is the refusal of the annointed one....they will not 'SEE" HIM again until they say....
Blessed is He who comes in the NAME OF THE LORD...same for professing christians that are christians in name only..and seed of Abraham
Ishmael...that claim Jesus Christ as prophet of Isreal.....that devour one another in their carnality
right now there are three unclean inspired expressions in Jerusalem...devouring one another..what an abomination leading to desolation....
until the GLORY RETURNS.... it's been nothing but an abomination and desolation[struggle] til the name/nature change....
struggle=until you BLESS ME
Christian Activism=loving thy neighbor. I don't believe Christ ever got wrapped up in political nonsense, or picketed for a cause. If we truly focused on living our neighbor that would change the world.
One additional thing. With each new movement by well intentioned, or maybe not so well intentioned people...someone ends up looking for headship...leadership. Then of course, they need finances to run said organization...and we all know money and power tend to corrupt. So, personally my activism will be very individual with Christ as the head. I don't need to join one more group of people pointing out what is wrong with the world.
QuoteShawn said: Christian Activism=loving thy neighbor. I don't believe Christ ever got wrapped up in political nonsense, or picketed for a cause. If we truly focused on living our neighbor that would change the world.
- One additional thing. With each new movement by well intentioned, or maybe not so well intentioned people...someone ends up looking for headship...leadership. Then of course, they need finances to run said organization...and we all know money and power tend to corrupt. So, personally my activism will be very individual with Christ as the head. I don't need to join one more group of people pointing out what is wrong with the world.
* Jesus was replacing conventional beastly politics with the
politics of love. He was the king of Israel, who ran the thieves (money-changers) out of the treasury. What the apostles did after his resurrection was the kind of government he was re-instituting, one like that of the Judges in ancient Israel.
* I believe the
abomination and desolation took place at the time of Rome's invasion of Israel in 70 A.D. The second
temple was destroyed by them, which Jesus predicted at Mark 13: 1-4, but Jesus was the real temple, which was "destroyed", but which he rebuilt after three days, which he also predicted at John 2:19.
* Shawn, you seem to think I have bad intentions. That's a fine thing to think, just because I don't think the same way you do.
* There are always lots of reasons to be inactive, but Jesus and the
apostles are our examples to follow and they were not inactive. They set the foundation of the government that would ultimately
save mankind from the beast, i.e. from worldly beastly government. His followers continued his form of government in Russia and other parts of Europe (who became later Amish or Mennonites etc) and in Britain among the Saxons, who I believe were descendants of some of the ten lost tribes, to whom Paul had preached the gospel. It was the early Saxon form of government which served as a model for Thomas Jefferson as one of the founders of the U.S. government. This site, http://metanoia.org (http://metanoia.org), says "Wycliffe and his associates defied church tradition by translating the Latin Bible into English, declaring in the preface,
"The Bible is for the Government of the People, by the People, and for the People." That was in the mid or late 1300s.
* The U.S. was founded by Christians who meant to follow Jesus' form of government, though they weren't perfect. Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa started the
movement for righteous government in the 1400s shortly after Joan of Arc gave her life for better government in France. That led to commonwealths modeled on Jesus' commonwealth, such as briefly existed in England and France, but also became part of the movement for self-government in the U.S. Cusa understood the Bible as describing righteous government, which seeks to satisfy the needs of all of the people, not just rulers. That's what commonwealth meant, i.e. providing for the common good of the people. And the term "public servants" comes from the idea that the purpose of government is to serve the people. That's how they understood the command to Love thy Neighbor.
* The U.S. government was fairly righteous until after the Civil War, when it seems that corporatism began, which was the early stage of the presently mushrooming satanic greed and power-based fascism. Of course, slavery was one of the major faults of the U.S., which was meant to be ended by the early 1800s, but which it took till Lincoln's time to finally end, though other forms of slavery and abuse continue.
*
Our laws were initially based on the Bible. The main law is to love God and our neighbors. Just as the Pharisees had corrupted the Law, which Jesus came to correct, our laws have similarly become very corrupted, and Jesus will correct them too, possibly by inspiring us, just as he came to Paul and his disciples in the first century to inspire them.
*
Question. Do you inactivists oppose the idea of asking our public servants to serve the public, rather than just the upper class? Do you advise Christians not to run for or accept public office in order to be true public servants ourselves? Even at the local level?
Why do you assume that I believe you have ill intentions? I am making a case that activism is best done on the individual level, and that organizations tend to corrupt. I don't know you, so I have no opinion about your intentions.
As for "inactivism"... I just don't believe in organized activism. Those systems are what I do not trust. As for getting myself involved in politics...color me skeptical. I have better uses of my time and energy than fighting Washington. Instead, I choose to engage in what is in front of me...what God has given me to do. If there are people like yourself that believe they are called to do so, then by all means follow that lead. That includes Christ followers in politics. Who am I to tell someone else not to follow their heart?
Yes, some of the early colonies such as Massachusetts, were founded by Christians with the Bible as the law document. However, the United States of America was founded by Deists and Masons.
PS: there is also the issue of everything you bring up...how to apply Biblical principles to the government? Should we? And who's interpretation, and doctrines are we to apply?
For instance loving thy neighbor.
You might believe loving your neighbor means more social systems for the poor and middle class. i might believe social systems for those who won't work are enabling, and would prefer to show love through training and education. Who's right? Should we mix religion and government? If we do, does that actually endanger our ability to freely worship?
Not looking for a political debate, just showing you why I don't get wrapped up in it. I like the simplicity of my life...love those in front of me....show them kindness, love and respect.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on September 25, 2012, 07:39:33 AM
Yes, some of the early colonies such as Massachusetts, were founded by Christians with the Bible as the law document. However, the United States of America was founded by Deists and Masons.
The idea of turning the US into a theocracy scares me. We have seen how that has turned out in the Middle East.
Shawn is right. Our purpose here is to love others.
Since only God knows if the guy asking you for money(this is an example)
will use it for food for his family or booze for himself, we need to let God show us and tell us
who and how and where we are to show his love.
There are absolutely so many people that need the love we can share to help and comfort that
we would literally kill ourselves (as the missionary Annie Armstrong did) by giving so much to so many.
(Annie starved to death giving her food away to other starving people)
This was apparently what God wanted (or she felt he wanted)her to do.
I even struggle with the time I spend in these forums but being physically handicapped I'm limited
to what I can physically and financially able to do for others.
Quote from: ded2daworld on September 25, 2012, 05:18:26 PM
Shawn is right. Our purpose here is to love others.
I agree. One at a time, as God leads.
Quote from: ded2daworld on September 25, 2012, 05:18:26 PM
I even struggle with the time I spend in these forums but being physically handicapped I'm limited
to what I can physically and financially able to do for others.
You're of great benefit here. Blessings.
Amen to that Jab. Ded you are indeed a terrific part of this community.
QuoteSomeone said: Yes, some of the early colonies such as Massachusetts, were founded by Christians with the Bible as the law document. However, the United States of America was founded by Deists and Masons.
QuoteShawn replied: The idea of turning the US into a theocracy scares me. We have seen how that has turned out in the Middle East.
* Deists and Masons were capable of being Christian Universalists. And Christians were definitely involved in founding the U.S. It wasn't just Deists and Masons. The U.S. was the culmination of Christian practice at virtually self-government for over 150 years. The Mathers, Winthrops and others helped put New England on Christian foundations. The Quakers certainly did so especially in Pennsylvania. Even Georgia started out as an anti-slave colony.
* Every government is already a theocracy. It's either founded on the law of the jungle, the Beast, or it's founded on the law of Love, the Bible.
* Good people have made great sacrifices in the past to see to it that we inherited a government founded on love, a commonwealth for the common good of all.
* It's the Beast (Satan) who tries to persuade us that government should be separate from God's law. That way the Beast can take it over by default, which is what's been happening for over a hundred years, eroding our freedom and increasing enmity among the people. The Beast feeds on enmity.
Guess I'm the beast then, because I certainly do not want to live in a country under theocratic rule. Why? Because I then have government telling me how and what/who to worship. Separation of church and state ensures me that the government won't tell me what worship should look like...won't use the name of Christ to commit acts of war and murder. I also like people being able to seek other faiths without persecution...which ensures that i will be able to seek Christ without persecution. No, a theocracy is never really God running the government...it's man using religion to control. No thank you to any of that.
Quote from: Lloyd on September 20, 2012, 04:12:49 AM
What are members' ideas for Christian activism?
While waiting to hear from you, here's my present idea.
I'm trying to hire a recruiter to start a weekly anti-war, anti-corruption young people's local gathering (St. Louis area), as well as a weekly online discussion. The latter would be for sharing ideas with people in other areas for starting similar gatherings there.
The gatherings have to be fun, informative and inspiring. What else?
I m not sure what the unemployment rate is in St Louis
But couldn't be that low that it would be hard to hire some one especially
for a job that sounds like so much fun.
Have you tried more politically orientated web sites?
We could debate theocracy and America and church/state all day, but it is important to go back to the USA constitution to see the exact wording. It is very precise: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. What does that mean? It means, and remember we're dealing with 18th century English here, that the national congress is forbidden to make any law having to do (respecting) a State Church (establishment). It's that simple, and all the hot air about church and state separation just indicates a misunderstanding of the language.
I do understand your view Shawn, and I have some of those same leanings. What I would probably primariy choose though would be something that's probably gone (if it ever existed) and won't be until God truly reigns and satan is bound.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on September 26, 2012, 04:44:06 AM
We could debate theocracy and America and church/state all day, but it is important to go back to the USA constitution to see the exact wording. It is very precise: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. What does that mean? It means, and remember we're dealing with 18th century English here, that the national congress is forbidden to make any law having to do (respecting) a State Church (establishment). It's that simple, and all the hot air about church and state separation just indicates a misunderstanding of the language.
Laz, I've got this thing going on right now on facebook about this topic, started with someone complaining at University of Tennessee about a prayer at a football game. I made the comment that if I were in another culture, I'd expect to hear their prayer, respect that, and move on, etc. Most agreed, a couple got all into the Constitution thing, one guy telling me if I didn't like the Constitution I could move to another country. :laughing7: :doh:
Anyway, I personally wouldn't want to live in a theocracy unless it was established by God Himself (which will happen), but also, I DO want to live in a culture where the prevailing belief is of the God of Abraham, Father of Jesus Christ, and where that is allowed to pervade society - WITH freedom, respect for others, nothing FORCED, etc. - which IMO, a
true environment of the prevailing knowledge and worship of YHWH in Spirit and truth would include (respect and love for others), unless and until God Himself changes
all hearts to Him.
I shared this in the discussion on my FB page with the "move out of the country, the law says..." guy, and your post made me think to share it here;
"So if I were at a soccer game for instance, where most of the participants were of Arab descent and culture, if they wanted to have a prayer to Allah, I guarantee you I wouldn't go marching around trying to figure out how I could shut them up. I'd figure I was "on their turf", and it was to be expected. So as I said, I'd respect their right to pray according to their custom and culture, and when done, move on and participate in mine.......The refrain of "separation of church and state" was in a letter as one man's personal opinion, not in any official state document.
OUR CULTURE in the U.S. has historically been Judeo-Christian, with allowances made for other religions and no one forced to convert to any particular religion.As an example for those who may be unaware of the issue as it historically truly was, Bryan Fischer writes; "The Continental Congress, which gave us the Declaration of Independence in 1776, convened for the first time on September 7, 1774.
The first legislative action taken was a motion to open this first session in prayer. The motion was opposed. Aha, you say — separation of church and state!
But it was opposed for reasons other than you might expect. It was not that the delegates were opposed to prayer, but rather that they weren't sure which Christian clergyman to choose for the honor, as there were, according to Founding Father John Adams, Episcopalians, Quakers, Anabaptists, Presbyterians, and Congregationalists present.
"Any gentleman of Piety"
The logjam was broken when Samuel Adams, the Father of the American Revolution, "arose," according to John Adams' account, "and said that he was no bigot, and could hear a Prayer from any gentleman of Piety and virtue, who was at the same time a friend to his Country." (Note to the ACLU: according to this Founder, opposition to public invocations is a form of bigotry.)
As a result of Sam Adams' intervention, the motion carried and an Episcopalian clergyman, Rev. Jacob Duche', was prevailed upon to open the next morning's session in prayer.
Psalm 35 — "Contend, O Lord, with those who contend with me"
Duche' first read several prayers "in the established form," and then read the assigned passage from the Book of Common Prayer for that day, Psalm 35. (The horror: not only multiple prayers, but Bible reading, right there in the open, in Congress!)
Providentially, this Psalm opens with these words: "Contend, O LORD, with those who contend with me; fight against those who fight against me. Take hold of shield and buckler and rise for my help. Draw the spear and javelin against my pursuers. Say to my soul, 'I am your salvation.' Let them be put to shame and dishonor who seek after my life. Let them be turned back and disappointed who devise evil against me."
Adams writes that this passage from the Scripture electrified the Founders. "I never saw a greater effect upon an audience. It seemed as if heaven had ordained that Psalm to be read on that morning."
So Lazarus do you want the US government to be a Christian based theocracy? Do you want to mix government and religion? What do you personally believe the founding Fathers were trying to convey with their language?
Jab...you totally nailed it when you said...
I wouldn't want to live in a theocracy unless it was established by God himself.
AMEN! To that.
Quote from: shawn on September 26, 2012, 05:01:25 AM
Jab...you totally nailed it when you said...
I wouldn't want to live in a theocracy unless it was established by God himself.
AMEN! To that.
:thumbsup: Thanks. It would probably be fair to say as for my view, I just want true things of God permeating our culture and for it to be free, open, and affecting everything. But that's not the way it is, and I don't want it forced by man. :2c:
Quote from: jabcat on September 26, 2012, 05:05:35 AM
Quote from: shawn on September 26, 2012, 05:01:25 AM
Jab...you totally nailed it when you said...
I wouldn't want to live in a theocracy unless it was established by God himself.
AMEN! To that.
:thumbsup: Thanks. It would probably be fair to say as for my view, I just want true things of God permeating our culture and for it to be free, open, and affecting everything. But that's not the way it is, and I don't want it forced by man. :2c:
But I also don't want it forced out by a minority. So it does set up a conundrum.
Quote from: shawn on September 26, 2012, 04:59:31 AM
So Lazarus do you want the US government to be a Christian based theocracy? Do you want to mix government and religion? What do you personally believe the founding Fathers were trying to convey with their language?
In the end, it is a matter of balance. I would argue that the founding fathers wanted the government to operate under the influence of Christianity in a non-denominational sense, without carrying out the agenda of any church, denomination or sect. They had the example of intolerance, persecution, and religious war back in Europe to go on.
A true theocracy is rule by God. The theocracy we need is in our personal lives. Human rulers, even devout ones, will sin, do wrong, and make mistakes. God was the ruler in Israel and things went fine until the people asked for a king "like" the pagan nations around them had. It's difficult enough for a person to run his own life and it is a personality problem for one person to want to rule over another.
It's in an old rock song but it's still true today, "He can't even run his own life, I'll be damned if he'll run mine."
Paul said we must obey God and not men.
You are in a theocracy if Gods rule in your life supercedes that of others.
A democracy is majority rule. One person, one vote, each issue.
A republic, (which we have) the majority elects those that rule and make the rules.
There is not now, nor has there ever been a true democratic government.
That's why we pledge allegiance "to the Republic"
fATHER SAID..IF YOU INSIST ON HAVING A KING LIKE THE NATIONS AROUND YOU.....HE WOULD
TAKE TAKE TAKE....NOW WE KNOW THAT WE ARE TO SERVE..GIVE GIVE GIVE AS THE LORD COMMANDED.
HE SAID..IT IS REALLY ME THEY ARE REJECTING IN WANTING THIS
THE BRIDE OF CHRIST BECOMES MOTHER/NURTURER TO ALL THOSE BORN FROM ABOVE IN THE IMAGE
OF JERUSALEM ABOVE AND RAISED UP IN CHRIST.
....CHILDREN ARE ADMONISHED TO NOT 'FORSAKE THE LAW OF YOUR MOTHER'
WHICH IS..LOVE FOR GOD/CHRIST, YOUR HUSBAND AND LOVE FOR YOUR BROTHERAS YOURSELF
AND YOUR CHILDREN... SHE IS NOT IN THE IMAGE/LIKENESS OF THE HARLOT WHO DESPIZES HER
HUSBAND AND HER CHILDREN EZEKIEL 36;13 BUT YOU O'MOUNTAINS OF ISREAL, WILL PRODUCE
BRANCHES AND FRUIT FOR MY PEOPLE ISREAL FOR THEY WILL SOON COME HOME...
I WILL CAUSE PEOPLE MY PEOPLE ISREAL TO WALK UPON YOU THEY WILL POSSESS YOU
AND YOU WILL BE THEIR INHERITANCE YOU WILL NEVER AGAIN DEPRIVE THEM OF THEIR CHILDREN
BECAUSE PEOPLE SAY TO YOU 'YOU DEVOUR DEVOUR MEN AND DEPRIVE YOUR NATION OF IT'S CHILDREN
THEREFORE YOU WILL NO LONGER DEVOUR MEN OR MAKE YOUR NATION CHILDLESS
NO LONGER WILL I MAKE YOU HEAR THE TAUNTS OF THE NATIONS, AND NO LONGER WILL YOU
SUFFER THE SCORN OF THE PEOPLES OR CAUSE YOUR NATION TO FALL,DECLARES THE SOVEREIGN LORD
* My original questions and ideas for this thread were these:
QuoteWhat are members' ideas for Christian activism? While waiting to hear from you, here's my present idea. I'm trying ... to start a weekly anti-war, anti-corruption young people's local gathering [and a similar one] online.... The gatherings have to be fun, informative and inspiring. What else?
* I regret somewhat that I helped take the discussion off into political issues.
* I really meant only to discuss Christian activism, not politics. I think it should be up to each local gathering to decide for itself how to be active against war and corruption.
* But don't others share interest in forming local young people's gatherings for the common good and against war and corruption? If so, what are your inspired ideas on how to start and maintain such gatherings?
Quote from: Lloyd on September 26, 2012, 09:48:48 PM
* But don't others share interest in forming local young people's gatherings for the common good and against war and corruption? If so, what are your inspired ideas on how to start and maintain such gatherings?
Common good is debatable, war
is politics, corruption
is politics.
I see your point Lloyd and agree that there may be some interest. I just believe it's naive to think that you won't have a worldview, culture view, political view clash. I've been in many of these groups and they tend to degenerate into arguing about trifles. I once saw a church split over the color of the carpet in the foyer! How's that for people of God concerned with obeying Jesus commandment to love one another.