I was raised in a loving home by good parents and a decent family.
My church is probably one of the most accepting and loving that I know of. No one there shoves the gospel down your throat, and my pastor is a very generous, kind-hearted man. He's been through what he calls the "school of hard knocks" in that he grew up in a very legalistic church, which eventually caused him to leave church altogether. He later had a calling from God to start the church that I'm at now in about 1989.
Since I was a pre-teen, I've struggled with intense fears of Hell and eternal damnation. I often asked my parents for help (they're both Christians). They would always ask if I had asked Jesus in my heart, and of course I would respond with a 'yes' (seeing I had done it several times "just to be sure"). They would then say that that was proof I was saved... simple as that. To tell the truth, it hasn't been more than a year since the last time this has happened.
Similar things would happen when I asked my pastor and youth pastor about it. They would try to assure me with Scripture and their personal experiences that I really was saved, no matter how bad I had messed up. After each of these talks, I would usually feel reassured of my salvation and go about daily life. Of course, this only lasted for a few weeks (months, at the most, and sometimes only days) and then I would enter "panic mode" again.
In the past year I've gone through several changes in my thought processes in which I've come to see that God would not sentence anyone to meaningless torture forever (books like "Absolute Assurance" by Charles Slagle and "Hope Beyond Hell" by Gerry Beauchemin have helped immensely with this). I've presented my beliefs (in person) to a few people (my parents and my pastor, mainly, and my brother, indirectly) who all disagree with me, of course. :bigGrin:
Anyway, now that I've discovered this belief, not much in my life has changed besides the way that I look at Christianity. In fact, I've become kind of bitter over some things, even though I see it as nearly completely unjustifiable seeing how lovingly I was treated by everyone I've talked to about my fears. I was never really "spiritually abused" or told that I was going to Hell if my behavior slipped up. For example, I was at a gathering of college students called "Vintage" on Tuesday night, which consists of live worship music and a message. I was listening to the message, which basically consisted of "God is both loving and just" and I just sat there with this pseudo-arrogant grin on my face through most of it. Then, at the end, when they wanted to have an altar call ("We're going to open up the altar..."), the host said something like "stage guy, dim the lights, please" and I felt myself getting really angry at the way he seemed to be emotionally manipulating the audience. I was just mad at how it was run and kept thinking about how they were wrong about Hell and I was right. I used to be glad when I saw people go up at altar calls and pray to be made right with God. I should have been focusing on God and asking Him to help the people around me, but I was too self-absorbed.
Basically, I feel like I'm becoming the kind of judgmental person I hate. I sometimes view others with disdain because of my new insights. To make matters worse, sometimes I feel like I doubt God's existence more often now than I did when I thought Hell was real, because (and I know you've all probably heard this before, and I have too) it seems like if you can say that there was a mistranslation issue with such a key issue of modern Christian doctrine, then you "might as well throw out the whole book". I've been brought up to believe that the Bible is inerrant (except on minor issues) and the recent discovery that it's not is messing with my head. I still believe that Jesus died for me and rose again, but it doesn't affect me like it used to. I just want to get rid of the confusion I'm experiencing and feel and act out the love that most people here seem to have.
...P.S. for a bit of the chronicling of my experiences, check out these discussions on a different message board (be warned, strong language is often used there):
This is where a pastor scared the crap out of me:
http://www.bleedzao.com/forums/shocking-convicting-message-paul-washer-t12290/index.html?t=12290&highlight=paul+washer (http://www.bleedzao.com/forums/shocking-convicting-message-paul-washer-t12290/index.html?t=12290&highlight=paul+washer)
This is where I just started questioning:
http://www.bleedzao.com/forums/why-live-good-life-if-t12328/index.html?t=12328&highlight=slagle (http://www.bleedzao.com/forums/why-live-good-life-if-t12328/index.html?t=12328&highlight=slagle)
This is the huge thread where I talk about my experiences with my pastor and everyone on the board gives their two cents about universalism and Christianity:
http://www.bleedzao.com/forums/am-over-my-head-and-t12835/index.html (http://www.bleedzao.com/forums/am-over-my-head-and-t12835/index.html)
The question of our salvation is often very misunderstood. The enemy tries to destroy our faith, in any way possible, we must keep our helmet of salvation on, otherwise the enemy gets us with a fatal blow to the head, that is, our salvation itself.
Here is the definition of salvation as I see it, and I'm stickin with it:
2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
Mike
This bitterness is a phase you and all of us have gone through. It must be harder for someone still in the mainstream system. The system requires that you attend regularly and once you stop you are back-slidden.
This is the crap they dish out and mainly because they learned it this way. I would suggest focusing on study and get to know more on the precepts of CU. In reality, CU and ET differ mainly on hell. I have done some articles on my blog where i study in depth the hell teachings of Jesus. There are only 8 and all of them are directed at the religious folk of Jesus' day. Many ET folk will say Jesus spoke more on hell than any other topic, it is a lie, only 8 and the apostles and Paul do not mention it at all. James mentions it once.
You will only convince others if you yourself are 100% convince and can articulate your beliefs from scripture. You have to know what they will offer up in defense and know how to address that too.
Ultimately, it takes God to open their eyes. Indoctrination is another word for brainwashing. If your friends are happy with a performance based relationship, leave them, the ones seeking deeper meaning like yourself you will come across eventually.
Universalism has a bad rep as it shows the system is not necessary for salvation. The system will protect itself.
Blessings
Good morning, Mike! :dsunny:
Doctrines may change and Bible versions may change, but our Lord never does!
Look to Him- draw near to Him in your heart and get to know Him more.
Let Him fill you with Himself and then there will be less and less room for anything else!
Bitterness, confusion, apathy, ANYTHING that drains us of an abundant life will eventually fade away!
I'm praying for you, Brother!
:girlheart:
I agree that it is hard to not feel the 'bitterness' when you are still in the system. Some people can deal with it, but I, like you begin to get very synical when in that atmostphere....which isn't right.
I almost think that having a 'good church', not 'preaching hell-fire' is more desceptive...because ultimately hell is the proverbial elephant in the room, but he's been their so long that no one sees him.
Sometimes you want to scream at the insanity of how glaringly and ridiculous a belief it is all the while they are saying,"God is love, blah, blah, blah." But the truth is they don't see it. They just don't. And I have to remember that I at one point I was there, and heard and felt and fellowshipped with God with the big fat beast in the room, too.
It has helped me to remove myself from the insanity...but that has it's own challenges, too. Doubt is a big one, I agree. Make sure you write down your anchors, those things that you know that you know are true witnessess of God in your life. Keep fellowshipping with those of like faith..'tentmaker', when your faith is failing many times others' testimonies will pull you through. Keeping a diary to God, and writing down what you believe you heard from Him also helps.
Be true to yourself and to God, and remember, it is all about love, not about doctrine.
Love, Sarah
Our wings – I'll pray for you man it must feel bad to have had to deal with hell fire preachers for so long.
As Sarah just said it can be almost as bad coming from a good church. In my early twenties I had a several year long crises of faith thanks to thinking too much about the problem of evil and the paradox of how the God of love could allow souls to suffer for eternity.
But I guess at least once I saw the truth I didn't have to feel bitter towards my church as they rarely stress the fear of Hell like some do.
From what little I know its surprising that we universalists arent the majority, so much of Scripture seems to suggest all will be saved.
God bless you!
:cloud9: Wings, it sounds like what you are experiencing is what is common to all of us when He takes away something from us that was deeply rooted. It leaves sort of a "hole" in the fabric of our soul, and if we do not get that "hole" filled with more of His wisdom to replace what the soul perceives we lost, it can open a door for bitterness to try to work, like Job's wife who told him to curse God and die.
But God uses all things for His purpose, and even this He uses. He has to open our eyes to everything that was wrong with the system we came out of, the doctrines we got shed of, the manipulation of the people that are still in those things, ect. and it does seem to raise up some anger and bitterness with it; I remember that, too.
But it will pass as you sit at His table and sup with Him and let Him heal the wounds from the thorns you encountered. Try to keep your focus on Him and give thanks He has opened your eyes, and don't feel you have to go and rescue the others and do battle. That will only increase the woundings before you are spiritually strong enough to withstand the battle. Be at peace and rest in Him, and let Him finish the work in you in this season of your walk.
As for feeling His love, He said we can do NOTHING without Him. He quickened to me years ago, that, that nothing includes LOVING HIM. He had me to ask Him to give me the love to love Him with. I felt hollow and inadequate when it came to that, and thought there was something wrong with me. There was. I was trying to do it in my own strength and even our best is not good enough, we cannot out give God. Blessings to you.....
Quote from: Cardinal on January 12, 2008, 05:29:54 PM
As for feeling His love, He said we can do NOTHING without Him. He quickened to me years ago, that, that nothing includes LOVING HIM. He had me to ask Him to give me the love to love Him with. I felt hollow and inadequate when it came to that, and thought there was something wrong with me. There was. I was trying to do it in my own strength and even our best is not good enough, we cannot out give God. Blessings to you.....
That was great, Cardinal.
Our Wings,
I am another that can identify with what you are saying. I had bitterness for quite some time towards people in my church after God brought me to a belief in universal salvation. But God reminded me that I, not so long ago, believed the same things as the rest of the people there. He also made me realize that they didn't want to believe in eternal hell either, but to challenge that belief they must face something that they have successfully backfiled in their minds. Why would they face something that they have managed to cope with? I only faced it because I couldn't stand it any longer, and needed to see if the "orthodox" belief was true.
Over time, God made me remember the love he had given me before for the people in my church, but it took time. The bitterness still creeps in sometimes, but He is stil working.
But, all our paths are different.
God's blessings.
Andrew
Thanks so much for the replies, everyone. I'll try to take your advice.
Also, just to clarify, the Tuesday night thing wasn't at my church, it was some other thing I started going to where a few hundred of college students gather. My church is more of the "little country church on the edge of town" type.
And Sarah, I know exactly what you mean about the "elephant in the room". Now that I've accepted Universalism, I wonder why people / pastors who believe in ET don't mention it during sermons or Sunday church, seeing that it's such an important issue. At least at my church, it seems like a topic that's been relegated to Tuesday night Bible Study only.
Dear Burning Wings -
Reading your post brings tears to my eyes because I've been through all those places before... the fear, the having to pretend I'm sure I'm saved (when I wasn't sure).... been through it all, and thank God it was many years ago. But I do remember the pain and the dark place. Then I got wonderfully delivered from my terrors in the year 2000, thanks to God and his servants Gary and Michelle Amirault. Then I began to feel angry with the church and all the religion, just as you have described. Then I got free of that anger. But I can't seem to get completely free from anger. I am still frequently angry about injustice, arrogance, corruption in politics and in the market place, etc... Not angry to the point of wanting to "act out", but just a sense of asking God .... "how long, how long must people be trampled underfoot by the war mongers, the religious charlatans, the greedy bankers, etc... So in my anger, I give place to God for vengeance. Because I do still believe he will judge. But not cast off forever.
I've been through so many stages in my Universal experience. I have finally come to understand that just because I'm a believer that all will be saved does not mean that God will not judge all things and even punish those who rejoice over evil. My views used to be so unbalanced before I understood that even in anger, God still loves and his wrath is "for a moment".
The title of your thread - bitterness - it is something I battle against all the time - trying to make sure I don't let any bitterness take root in me. It's going to be an ongoing battle until I pass away, I know. The Spirit in me is often grieved.
Bless you, brother.
Anne
Burning Wings,
I want to add a hearty Amen to what all others have shared and add my part to the picture. The Bible says that when we go through trials, we should not feel like we are going through some strange thing that is not common to man. As evidence of this, I encourage you to think about the history of the Kingdom on earth from the beginning until now.
The Bible and Church history is full of stories of men and women who had an encounter with God that revealed truth to them that was not popular or accepted by the institutionalized system of religion of their time. (Abraham, Moses, David, Daniel, John the Baptist, Jesus, Peter, Paul, Martin Luther etc.).
The truth is that it is the way of God to periodically come to a few whom He challenges to go against the traditions of men that were being taught as the commandments of God and were making the Word of God of no effect in the process. What we are experiencing now is no different than what happened to these others, it is just our turn to suffer the reproach of Christ outside the camp of the godly.
Notice what Peter spoke right after Pentecost was fullfilled in Jerusalem to those who asked what they must do to be saved:
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Regardless of what has been taught in Christendom, neither repentence, being converted, or salvation are one time affairs. Everytime that God comes to us and shows us something that He says is the truth and it goes contrary to what we have believed, we must repent (turn the other way), be converted (convert to the truth of God while casting down the imaginations that we have held that exalted themselves against the truth of God while bringing every thought obedient to Christ), and once again be saved (made whole) from a lie to the truth.
It saddens my heart when some feel shaken in their faith in God based on finding out that what man has taught was not the truth afterall according to the truth of God. This is not an unusual thing that should shake us, but it is just normal Christianity.
In my humble opinion, UR is just the next "time of refreshing coming from the presence of the Lord" as He goes about His mission of the restitution of all things. Relax, my Brother, and enjoy your moment in history. The Book of the Acts of the Apostles is still being written and it is an honor to receive our stripes at the hands of the Sanhedren of our day and to obey God rather than man.
Blessings,
John
Wings,
I don't think it is metioned because it is an uncomfortable belief. It is funny how the more 'loving churches' don't push hell, because in their heart they know it is an embarrassing belief. In fact, you will probably only hear vague references to it as you mentioned 'He is a just God (interpertation; He can't be around sin and therefore allows people to 'choose' hell ((being tortured forever and ever...and if your 'progressive', living in your own personal flames forever and ever...likes that's any better))---tortured logic isn't it?)'
And as you said, you will probably only get into a more deep discussion of it during bible study. It reminds me of when I was younger....we would get together with our Christian friends and drink/get drunk but wouldn't do it in front on a non-Christians because we 'knew the deal'.
Kind of sick really.
:HeartThrob: Sarah
:cloud9: And a hearty AMEN to that post, John :thumbsup:
I can identify with so much of what you've said...I think it's part of the process God is bringing you through, even the times of pridefullness and self-righteousness...God's revealing, and purging (cleansing) you. For me, that's been part of the "pulling away" from orthodoxy process, some of the stages...also, there can be judgementalness and as others have noted, anger/bitterness...as God processes us, our flesh acts up, but then God shows up, and deals with the sinfulness, and wills us (and helps us) turn from it...to me, it's just part of the fire, Him chastening, bringing us into His likeness... God teaches us through Hebrews 12 that He "chastens the sons whom He loves and scourges them". I see it as, God draws (drags) us, we fall, He picks us up, drags us, we fall, He picks us up....in the process bringing us to where He wants us...you're seeing the sin, that's a good thing...don't dwell on it or let the adversary accuse you with it..confess it, move on, and be continually believing on Him, Who is "the author and finisher of our faith". God's blessing.
Quote from: Our Wings are Burning on January 12, 2008, 07:28:47 AM
Basically, I feel like I'm becoming the kind of judgmental person I hate. I sometimes view others with disdain because of my new insights. To make matters worse, sometimes I feel like I doubt God's existence more often now than I did when I thought Hell was real, because (and I know you've all probably heard this before, and I have too) it seems like if you can say that there was a mistranslation issue with such a key issue of modern Christian doctrine, then you "might as well throw out the whole book". I've been brought up to believe that the Bible is inerrant (except on minor issues) and the recent discovery that it's not is messing with my head. I still believe that Jesus died for me and rose again, but it doesn't affect me like it used to. I just want to get rid of the confusion I'm experiencing and feel and act out the love that most people here seem to have.
We all have times when the truths we know don't seem to 'effect' us like they used too. It really has nothing to do with believing or not believing in inerrancy or mistranslations. Since I knew UR when first born again I always knew there were errors in the bible but was totally overwhelmed by what Jesus had done. In fact, it was the ressurection literally happening inside me as I read which made it so overwhelming. That's reality - when we read the book but embrace the person as He embraces us...
blessings,
Byron