Tentmaker Forum

Quote from: jabcat on July 02, 2009, 08:27:54 PM
If Paul's not really talking about himself, that's one thing.  I'd want some really good proof that's not the case, never heard that before.

Also, it sure doesn't sound like he's saying he's perfect or will be made perfect in this life.  Sounds to me like he's looking forward to the resurrection, while continuing to struggle in this life.  Though He sees God's grace as being "sufficient", therefore, no condemnation.

Hi jabcat,
In that linked thread we were talking about Romans 7, and I just want to share some thoughts on what I see in that chapter, and how Chapter 7 immediately leads to Chapter 8. This has to do with what Paul is talking about when he says "what a wretched man I am." And the question, which has been talked about by many Christians is who is Paul talking about when he says that. In other words, is Paul talking about himself in the present time, or using the present tense to discuss a general process which happens to ANYONE who is under the law? Before we really examine Romans 7 and 8 (and also chapter 6) I want to post a hypothetical story and ask what you see in it:

----

About a month ago, I tripped on the stairs and I tumbled down a good two floors and really hurt my knee and shin. I was really dazed and in shock. When this happened I thought I heard a bone break but at that time, I couldn't be sure.  So I picked myself up and stumbled out through the door. So I am walking down the street and I can't seem to get my bearings. In my mind I want to walk without this limp, but my leg is too injured. I try to walk without the limp, but every time I try, I can't do it. Oh this wretched leg I have! Who will come heal my leg? Thanks be to God, an ambulance! So in my mind I want to walk normally, but with my leg I keep limping.

But today, I am glad to say that NOW I walk normally and to say that my leg is healed. What my leg was not able to do (heal itself), the parametic did by coming with his supplies and bandaging me up. I am so thankful for that parametic.

----

What I hope to do in this conversation is to confirm that Christians do struggle with sin, but that Romans 7 does not describe that. It describes the struggle with sin by those who are under the law and not yet delivered from it. Contrasted to that, I will show that there is another process by which Christians who are not under the law do struggle with sin unto deliverance from it (That process is what we know as, and call, being under "grace").

For now though, regarding that story, I want to ask if you see the literary device, common in all languages and cultures, of shifting the present and past tenses to tell a story.

You had me at Grace!   :mblush:


Paul

 :laughing7:

Hi Jabcat, not sure if you have been able to see this thread yet. But I had just wanted to know if you could see the little story there, showing the device by which a writer shifts back and forth between past and present tense. Understanding how, not only do writers do that, but people do that all the time. A much shorter example: I was at the grocery store last week, standing in line, and the cast register broke. So I am standing there with my ice cream melting.

You see how quickly I switched from past to present tense, yet you know when I say "So I am standing there with my ice cream melting" doesn't mean I am doing that right now as I write this. I had just wanted to make sure that you see how that works in the way we speak. Paul does the same thing in Romans 7. If you read the chapter from front to back without pausing, you see that he starts from the past perspective, then suddenly switches to the present tense, yet still talking about the same thing. 

One thing that Christian's struggle with is between Law and Grace. Grace they associate only with forgiveness of sin, and Law they associate with development of good morals. I actually had a preacher who was in the midst of rejecting "UR" tell me that one of his responsibilities is to teach a balance between Law and Grace. That is what Christians do, and this sounds right to them, because while "grace" makes the congregation feel loved and forgiven, and thereby safe, the preacher does not want to take that too far, so he goes back to the Law to keep them moral.

The Bible tells us NOT to mix law with grace. I could post the scripture, but I doubt I need to. And all through Romans 7 we find out why. One MAJOR problem with the Evangelical Christian traditional understanding of grace is its association ONLY with forgiveness of sin. However, if I can establish that grace is much more than that, that it is what grows our morality, then it becomes totally unnecessary to rely on the law to grow in morality. And it also becomes totally NECESSARY to to be completely delivered form the law, to rely only on grace for what we need.

Grace (Gk - charis) is simply God's favor toward us. By faith we access this favor, not by the law. God reveals his favor by his mercy toward us. That mercy is not just in forgiving our sins, but in actively delivering us from them, even through chastisement. If someone is a slave, what is the most merciful thing to do, but to unchain their shackles right? That's true mercy.

Titus 2:11-14
For the Grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches (paideuo) us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to DO what is good.

paideuo (pa-hee-dyoo-o)
to train up a child, that is, educate, or (by implication) discipline (by punishment): - chasten (-ise), instruct, learn, teach."

Hebrews 12:5-7
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth (paiduo), and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

There it is. That is why you don't need the law to teach morality like most Christians believe. Grace is sufficient for ALL your needs and not only is it associated with forgiveness of sin, but also with CHASTISEMENT from God toward us growing in Godliness. Isn't it telling then, that Paul does not mention "grace" ONCE in Romans 7? Not once. It's all about the law. And while people think that being under the law of Moses is good for our morals, Romans 7 shows us the EXACT opposite.

In this post, I just wanted to show how that 1) grace is sufficient for all things we need, including our moral development, and 2) that Romans 7 doesn't talk about Grace at all.

In my next post, I'll break Romans 7 down piece by piece and show how it relates to Romans 6 and Romans 8.

So I will now go through Romans 7 and the beginning of 8 point by point to show why, if we say "oh what a wretched man I am" we show that we are under the law, and not under grace and that rather than being delivered from sin daily, we are hopeless captives to it, without mercy or victory. That is the message of this following chapter. The entire chapter of Romans 7 is dealing with the experience of one who is under the law, whether it be an Israelite, or a Christian who has been bewitched by what we would call Judaizers who wish to place anyone they can back under captivity. Paul dealt with that in Galatians. Let's do it:

Romans 7:1-4
Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man. So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

Paul gives us a valuable metaphor: When a man dies he is released from the authority of the law. When a woman's husband dies, she is free to marry another because she is free from the law that bind her to him. What the chapter shows is that this is a metaphor for those who have the Spirit. Christ is our husband now, right? We are his bride? What were we married to before? A body of sin. And the law kept us married to that body, until our husband is put to death, thereby releasing us from the law so we can be joined to Christ. We see here that "the law" is something to die to, or be delivered from, not something to be under.

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verses 5-6
For when we were controlled by the sinful nature (KJV "when we were in the flesh") the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

It is interesting, that phrase "when we were in the flesh" because Romans 8 says that "we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if the Spirit of God dwells in us." So, everything Paul is about to say regarding the law, applies to them who are "in the flesh" when all the sinful passions were at work in their bodies. Now, even though Spirit carriers do struggle with sin to some degree, they do even as they are not "in the flesh" rather "in the Spirit." That means our struggle is under grace unto deliverance not under the law unto captivity.

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verses 7-9
What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

Here Paul is still speaking in the past tense, and he is still talking about what it was like when we "were in the flesh" married to sin, still needing to die to sin to be married to Christ. Paul establishes that the law is not sin itself, but is holy and righteous. Sin in us is there but it lies dormant with no law to reveal it. When the holy law comes, sin uses the law to trick us, and produces lust within us, which is lawless. So the law is weak in delivering us from sin, which is why Paul says that none can be made righteous by works of the law.

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verses 11-13
For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

Again, Paul is still speaking in the past tense, as when we were in the flesh and not in the Spirit, when the motions of sin worked in us unto death in sin.In another place, Paul says that the law engraved in stone and written in ink are "ministrations of death." Here, Paul clarifies that while the law is holy, it nevertheless kept us in bondage to death, because of sin. What is critically important here is that the purpose of the law is revealed: "that sin be recognized as sin." In order for sin to be recognized as sin, it grew "utterly (KJV "exeeding") sinful"

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verse 14-19
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Now, Paul suddenly switches to the present tense. Hopefully you can see through my earlier example, that just because the present tense is used, does not mean Paul is speaking about the present tense, but is using it to illustrate the past. The law is spiritual. I am carnal, sold under sin. This is still "while we were in the flesh, the motions of sin worked in us." Was Paul intending to say that he couldn't do good under the Gospel of Grace? Of course not, as you saw, Grace teaches us to do good when before we could not, as illustrated here.

He says he is carnal but the law is spiritual. The law of Moses is spiritual, but veiled in the flesh, just like Christ was. He was veiled in the flesh, still being spiritual, yet brought no spiritual conversion to the inward man, until he died and was resurrected unto Pentacost. Christ only healed people outwardly, but did not convert anyone until the flesh was removed. So the Law of Moses, in like fashion was spiritual, but veiled in the flesh, and brought healing to nobody, because while being spiritUAL, it was not THE SPIRIT.

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verses 21-24
So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Paul, being a former Pharisee, delighted in his inner man after the law, but could not do good when he was "in the flesh" and married to sin under captivity to the law. Who would deliver him from the body of death? Wait a minute, did Paul in present time not know the answer to that? Of course he did, but when he was "in the flesh" and not "in the Spirit" he had no idea who could deliver him from slavery. The answer of course is Christ who comes to destroy the old man (to kill him), as we see in Romans 6 and 8, so that a new man can be born.

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verse 25
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Here Paul recaps the former struggle in the mind that he had in slavery to sin. Turn the page

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Romans 8:1-9
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are NOT in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Here is the turning point of the struggle. Paul speaks about the righteousness of the law, yet he says that the law was weak through the flesh (because sin used it to trick us). However, Jesus in the likeness of sinful flesh pronounced a death sentence against sin so that the righteousness OF the law (which is LOVE with the flesh-veil removed) can be fulfilled in us. This is why it says that those who are "in the flesh" cannot please God. However, once recieving the Spirit and being placed under GRACE, our minds are no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit. This is why BY GRACE we do not need to be condemned to say "I am so wretched" if it means continually not doing what we want. Grace gives us the ability to do what we wanted, by setting us free from that. This does not mean we don't struggle, but we do not have to join the struggle of them who are under the law.

Hello Seth

There are a couple of different laws being discussed in Romans

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

The law of sin is one law but the law of his mind that is the mind of Christ is a different law and is mentioned earlier in Romans

Romans 3:27
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
[/b]

The words "faith" and "sin" serve as both nouns and verbs. As nouns they are both "seeds" and follow the law of the seed that simply says apple seeds in turn will make more apples. So it is with the seed of sin that is a noun and brings forth fruit in its own image that in this case is a verb that describes the act of a sin

Same thing with faith....... faith is a seed from God that is a noun and brings forth in its own image..... good works of faith.......James proves that he agrees with when he speaks of faith without works being dead

So we have two laws. at war here within Paul......... the law of faith from the presence of the seed that is Christ in us and the law of sin that is the "seed of the serpent

Paul trying to serve the law of faith and failing is what makes him a "wretched man" and is confirmed when he says the following

Ro. 7: For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I

As far as the wife and the husband part goes........ that is Adam and Eve in us....... if Adam in us dies (Spirit of the old man in us) Eve (our mind, will and emotions) is free to follow after the Holy Spirit that is Christ in us  :thumbsup:

Blessings

Doug

Quote from: Seth on July 09, 2009, 07:22:06 PM
One thing that Christian's struggle with is between Law and Grace. Grace they associate only with forgiveness of sin, and Law they associate with development of good morals. I actually had a preacher who was in the midst of rejecting "UR" tell me that one of his responsibilities is to teach a balance between Law and Grace. That is what Christians do, and this sounds right to them, because while "grace" makes the congregation feel loved and forgiven, and thereby safe, the preacher does not want to take that too far, so he goes back to the Law to keep them moral.

The Bible tells us NOT to mix law with grace. I could post the scripture, but I doubt I need to. And all through Romans 7 we find out why. One MAJOR problem with the Evangelical Christian traditional understanding of grace is its association ONLY with forgiveness of sin. However, if I can establish that grace is much more than that, that it is what grows our morality, then it becomes totally unnecessary to rely on the law to grow in morality. And it also becomes totally NECESSARY to to be completely delivered form the law, to rely only on grace for what we need.

Grace (Gk - charis) is simply God's favor toward us. By faith we access this favor, not by the law. God reveals his favor by his mercy toward us. That mercy is not just in forgiving our sins, but in actively delivering us from them, even through chastisement. If someone is a slave, what is the most merciful thing to do, but to unchain their shackles right? That's true mercy.

Titus 2:11-14
For the Grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches (paideuo) us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to DO what is good.

paideuo (pa-hee-dyoo-o)
to train up a child, that is, educate, or (by implication) discipline (by punishment): - chasten (-ise), instruct, learn, teach."

Hebrews 12:5-7
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth (paiduo), and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

There it is. That is why you don't need the law to teach morality like most Christians believe. Grace is sufficient for ALL your needs and not only is it associated with forgiveness of sin, but also with CHASTISEMENT from God toward us growing in Godliness. Isn't it telling then, that Paul does not mention "grace" ONCE in Romans 7? Not once. It's all about the law. And while people think that being under the law of Moses is good for our morals, Romans 7 shows us the EXACT opposite.

In this post, I just wanted to show how that 1) grace is sufficient for all things we need, including our moral development, and 2) that Romans 7 doesn't talk about Grace at all.

In my next post, I'll break Romans 7 down piece by piece and show how it relates to Romans 6 and Romans 8.

Great stuff, Seth. Not to mention that Paul clearly describes that the function of the law is to show us that we need help, not to actually give the help needed that you have described above.   :thumbsup:

QuoteGreat stuff, Seth. Not to mention that Paul clearly describes that the function of the law is to show us that we need help, not to actually give the help needed that you have described above.   

Right.  :thumbsup: That is the third law described in Romans 7.

We have:

1) the law of sin and death in our members
2) the law of our mind which is in slavery to that law
3) the Law of Moses (the spiritual law) which exposes the law of sin by placing into battle with the law of our mind. That spiritual law is what we are delivered from into THE Spirit.

Quote from: Seth on July 09, 2009, 10:28:54 PM

QuoteGreat stuff, Seth. Not to mention that Paul clearly describes that the function of the law is to show us that we need help, not to actually give the help needed that you have described above.   

Right.  :thumbsup: That is the third law described in Romans 7.

We have:

1) the law of sin and death in our members
2) the law of our mind which is in slavery to that law
3) the Law of Moses (the spiritual law) which exposes the law of sin by placing into battle with the law of our mind. That spiritual law is what we are delivered from into THE Spirit.

At some point in time Paul obtains the mind of Christ that is the law of God

He spoke of himself and the others as having the mind of Christ but then exonerates Christians to allow the mind of Christ to be in them too

Considerable difference between the two

Blessings

Doug

Yes Paul spoke that we are given the Spirit as a downpayment until the redemption of the purchased possession. Romans 7 does not describe victory in the Spirit. It describes continual defeat as the law of sin in our members sets itself successfully against the law of our minds by using the holy commandments in the Law of Moses. Since we have recieved not the full inheritance we still must grow in the Spirit. This is not done under the spiritual law by which sin continually USES that command to GROW within us. This is done under grace by which sin is continually put down within us daily, and not under the law.

Romans 7 describes defeat under the law of Moses. Romans 6 and 8 describe victory in the Spirit.

Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.



Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.




Romans 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 
 Hi all , Seth  
Do you think it is the same Law of Liberty  spoken of as well ?


Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty  of the children of God.  
 
1Cr 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty  of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.  
1Cr 10:29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty  judged of another [man's] conscience?  
2Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.  
Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty  which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:  
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free,  and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.  


Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only [use] not liberty  for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.  
 
Jam 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.  
Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.  

 1Pe 2:16 As free, and not using [your] liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.  
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.


 strongs  greek 1657 from G1658

eleutheria
1) liberty to do or to omit things having no relationship to salvation

2) fancied liberty

a) licence, the liberty to do as one pleases

3) true liberty is living as we should not as we please

eleutheros
Pronunciation

e-lyü'-the-ros (Key)


Outline of Biblical Usage 1) freeborn

a) in a civil sense, one who is not a slave

b) of one who ceases to be a slave, freed, manumitted

2) free, exempt, unrestrained, not bound by an obligation

3) in an ethical sense: free from the yoke of the Mosaic Law
  children  born of the free woman [church]For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.  


Gal 4:23   But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.  
Gal 4:31   So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.    :icon_flower:

Quote from: Seth on July 09, 2009, 11:06:46 PM


Romans 7 describes defeat under the law of Moses. Romans 6 and 8 describe victory in the Spirit.

    VERY WELL PUT !  :thumbsup:

  Simple sweet and to the point

spot on ! :HeartThrob:

Amen Molly and redrose. Sometimes, and entire chapter of one NT book can be summed up in a few verses of another book and vice versa. While this smaller verse captures the point of Romans 7, Romans 7 explains in great detail the meaning of Galatians:17-18


Gal 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Does that sound familiar? It sounds just like Romans 7. It's the difference again between being under the law and being in the Spirit. The law binds us to the flesh, until the flesh is crucified with Christ.

Gal 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are NOT under the law.

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Here is another one: Remember how Romans 7 says that the law is made to reveal sin as sin?

Romans 3:21
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

------

This again reveals the point of Romans 7, that the law BINDS us to being wretched UNTIL Christ comes at which point we are placed under GRACE and set free as we walk in our lives. If anyone is in Christ the wretched man should be captured by grace and set free from the spiritual Law of Moses, not further bound in sin under it.

QuoteFor they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are NOT in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Verses like these always bothered me. It often feels like it's saying: if you sin, you're walking in the flesh, and so not of the Spirit, and so under the law. It feels like grace is only their if you walk in the Spirit, but if you're walking the Spirit, then you wouldn't need grace to begin with. (Because, it seems, to walk in the Spirit is to do what's right, and so you wouldn't need grace.) Maybe it's because I've also looked at grace as only being from the standpoint of "forgiveness".

But it often feels like walking in the Spirit is some sort of silly conditional thing. It's like: do good = you walk in the Spirit = within grace, verse this: do bad = walk in the flesh = under the law = in need of grace = needs to walk in the Spirit. Walking in the Spirit feels very conditional upon actions rather than grace.

Walking by the Spirit does not necessarily mean "do good." It means walk in the GUIDANCE of the Spirit who will TEACH you to do good. That is what grace does, it TEACHES even if through chastisement. It doesn't meant that by walking in the Spirit you will be utterly perfect, not even Paul claimed that. It just means by doing so, it will result in being able to do better, because you will be guided. But those who walk in the flesh are in utter slavery. That is a big difference.

It means

walk in the Spirit = will be guided to do good
walk in the flesh = can never do good

It's not a back and forth kind of thing. Law and grace do not mix. It is about being delivered from slavery, and then perfected more through the rest of your life, but always under grace and never back under the law. Do you remember how Paul reacted when he found out the Galatians were placing themselves back under the law? He asked them "who has bewitched you?"

Tim, the Apostle John said this:

I John 2:1
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

You see? He decidedly does NOT say: "If you sin, that law is gonna getcha! You are walking according to the flesh, and now you are wretched wretched people, let the cycle keep running" John knew better than to put people back under condemnation. If any man sin, he points to GRACE. If you sin, and you are walking by the Spirit, you will be guided by grace according to your advocate. Your advocate is a living being, the man Jesus Christ, not dead letters of the law.

Adam and Eve are our spirit and soul who have become one flesh that bring forth both good and evil as given evidence through Abel and Cain

In addition to that flesh is given life by spirit albeit an unclean spirit (adam)

When Jesus spoke of an unclean spirit going out of a man and going to the "dry places that is the dust the flesh is made up of he finds his wicked friends (the soul of the unclean spirit) whom he then through Eve tempts the the individual to sin just as back in the garden.......... if the person yields then the unclean spirit is once again sitting as the "man of sin in the temple of God where he ought not to be"

Spirit can bring forth good or bad and so can flesh bring forth good or bad.................flesh cannot inherit heaven but then neither can every spirit........ when the Apostles wanted to pass judgement on those who rejected them Jesus rebuked them saying "you know not what matter of spirit you are"

Blessings

Doug









[/quote]

QuoteAdam and Eve are our spirit and soul who have become one flesh that bring forth both good and evil as given evidence through Abel and Cain

Here is how I see it being laid out in Romans 7 and in the whole scripture. The first Adam was a type and shadow of the Adam to come which is Christ. The shadow is not the very thing, but is weaker than the body that casts the shadow. Adam was weaker than Christ.

The church is Eve. Eve is married to Adam, until Adam dies. So, with all the jealousy of his Father and in his wrath, Christ puts Adam to death, and Eve is able to marry Christ.  We are bound by the law to remain married to our old Adam, until Christ baptizes us, and kills that old nature, and replaces Adam with Himself. Thus being, we are delivered from the law, when we are delivered from the old Adam.

It is true that some spirits are evil and some good. But the Holy Spirit is good. And having been delivered of the law, by the Spirit, we are able to be submitted to Grace and walk free of sin and perfected more as we grow. All good things come in and through God's grace to us. This is why we must continue to walk in grace without wavering or sidestepping.

Amen to the Holy Spirit being good

As far as Adam being a type and shadow of Christ that is in reference to before the fall or as Ezeikeil says "until iniquity was found in him"

Eve can never marry Christ because she has sinned and is no longer a virgin that one has to be to marry the High Priest but I understand the "spirit" of what you are saying and do agree........ consequently we are to do as Paul says and be able to be presented as chaste virgins that means appearing as one even though it is not (God calling things as if they are even though they are not) just as you said the shadow being weaker than the real thing.

Enjoyed reading your post  :thumbsup:

Blessings

Doug

Thanks Doug. What I have learned so far is this. We have received the deposit of the inheritance until the redemption comes. This means we do not have the Spirit without measure, but a measured part, so that we may fit into a many membered body, not all are eyes, not all are feet.

What I see is that we are already married to Christ, yet not fully. So Eve is able to marry Christ in as much as it is a downpayment of the future full inheritance. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and the great thing about that is that we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit.

In downpayment form, we have righteousness and peace in the Spirit (which is the kingdom), yet not the FULL inheritance. So, while I say that Adam is put to death, I say also that he is being put to death and that also he WILL be put to death. However, all this three part process is happening under the administration of GRACE, not under the law. If we were under the law, Adam would always be alive and could not even BEGIN to die because the sin, by the law, strengthens Adam so that he becomes exceeding within us. Under grace is where Adam is slain.

Peace to you too brother.  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

 :cloud9: Amen, Livelystone...... :thumbsup:

Adam wasn't slain, he fell on his sword for Eve. The high priest enters the Most Holy Place not without blood, and the only blood he had to offer was his own--undeceived, undefiled, the firstborn of the flock, [Abel's offering in Gen 4], without spot or blemish until he entered into the transgression for Eve.

Adam, a son of God, is not only a type of the one to come but a brother and father by blood to Christ.

Christ is called the second Adam, the last Adam, the Son of Adam.

Jesus is our kinsman Redeemer.

Christ didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.

He didn't come to slay Adam, but to set him free.

People are always maligning Adam, but isn't he the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God, if not directly, then by proxy, the first step in fulfilling God's plan for redemption?  Isn't Adam the shadow of the Redeemer, Christ?


Something happened before Adam was lowered, something that required the freeing of all creation by God's Man.

2 Now the earth [became] formless and empty,  darkness covered the surface of the watery depths, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

--Gen 1


23 I looked at the earth,
    and it was formless and empty.
    [I looked] to the heavens,
    and their light was gone.

--Jer 4


A creation that is ruined, as surely as his bride..


25 I looked, and no [Adam] was left;
    all the birds of the sky had fled.

---Jer 4

...and there was not a man to till the ground.

---Gen 2


No man to till a garden that had been turned into wilderness.  What happened?


26 I looked, and the fertile field  was a wilderness.

--Jer 4


18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
    and you will eat the plants of the field.

--Gen 3


But God's man Adam would be with Eve in the wilderness,-- her name,  'Woman,' meaning  'mortal.'



"Woman"

From
H582
אנושׁ
'ĕnôsh
en-oshe'
From H605; properly a mortal (and thus differeing from the more dignified H120); hence a man in general (singly or collectively).


And, the mortal woman would carry an incorruptible seed.

Romans 13:10
.... therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Hi Seth, sorry bro, SO busy the past few days (and nights)...Lord willing, by tomorrow night (Friday) I'll be able to sit and actually read some things.  Until then, carry on without me  :happygrin:.

Quote from: jabcat on July 10, 2009, 06:41:54 AM
Hi Seth, sorry bro, SO busy the past few days (and nights)...Lord willing, by tomorrow night (Friday) I'll be able to sit and actually read some things.  Until then, carry on without me  :happygrin:.

No problem

Molly

By one man sin entered into the world and the one man was Adam. Adam was a blood brother to Christ but after his sin he became unclean and was forever cast out of the garden where we are to return to

God spoke of Adam when He spoke of Lucifer and of the King of Tyre. It is the man Adam in us that will be consumed by the fire so that the "son of man" in us be saved and for all time glorify God

Ezek. 18: Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Adam did not fall on his sword for Eve and he could have kept her from partaking of the forbidden fruit. Had Adam not been weak and chosen to become one with Eve when she was already at enmity with God and in compliance with Satan they could have avoided the sin that got them the boot from the garden.

Adam's failure to do the right thing is a "type and shadow" of when we fail to remain in obedience and commit a sin through yielding to the "Eve" in us who was taken from the flesh.

Blessings

Doug

QuoteAdam, a son of God, is not only a type of the one to come but a brother and father by blood to Christ.

Hi Molly, I was wondering where you see that Adam is a "son of God."

QuoteHe didn't come to slay Adam, but to set him free.

Why are the two mutually exclusive? If Adam needed to be set free, and we need to be set free, doesn't Romans 6 show that in order to be set free, we also die (ie crucified with Christ?)

QuoteIsn't Adam the shadow of the Redeemer, Christ?

Yes the but shadow is not the body that casts the shadow. This is why the lambs did not have power to redeem. While they were shadows, they were not the "very thing" in that they lacked the power that Christ has by the Spirit. You seem to be saying that Adam was a shadow and a type, and ALSO the very thing in that the shadow and the body had the same characteristics and power. I don't see that so far.

Quote from: SethHi Molly, I was wondering where you see that Adam is a "son of God."

It's in the book of Luke where he is giving the genealogy of Jesus and takes it all the way back to Adam.


38Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

--Luke 3



My head spun around on my shoulders when I first saw that.  There's more to Adam than meets the eye.

Hey, there's your name! :happygrin:

As far as I know, the Greek text from in Luke 3 concerning the genealogy is just a list of names. For example in verse 28, the Greek reads:

Luke 3:28
Enos, Seth, Adam, God.

That's why in the King James, the words "the son of" is in italics, because the translators added it to flesh it out.

Whereas in John 10:36 where it calls him the "Son of God" it says "huios theos" and the word for "son (huios)" is absent from Luke 3:28. And so is absent "monogenēs huios" in John 3:16 where it calls Jesus "the only begotten son."

Hi Seth.  I'm thinking and reading a bit on the topic.  I basically very much agree with your premises about the law and grace, etc., and I certainly understand the difference between switching tenses.  I'm just not sure that's exactly what Paul was doing and/or when and where.  And it seems to me that to emphatically state so would be either a) complicated and best done with extreme care and clear proofs, or b) (though done with good intent) conjecture.  You may have personally done 'a' very well, I just may need some time to examine and mull it.

Again, the basic premises you have about the Law of Moses showing our sin, and the Law of the Grace of Yesu being sufficient and the ultimate antidote for that sin, I strongly "Amen!".  Carry on, I'm looking at it.

Quote from: Seth on July 10, 2009, 01:03:18 AM
Walking by the Spirit does not necessarily mean "do good." It means walk in the GUIDANCE of the Spirit who will TEACH you to do good. That is what grace does, it TEACHES even if through chastisement. It doesn't meant that by walking in the Spirit you will be utterly perfect, not even Paul claimed that. It just means by doing so, it will result in being able to do better, because you will be guided. But those who walk in the flesh are in utter slavery. That is a big difference.

It means

walk in the Spirit = will be guided to do good
walk in the flesh = can never do good

It's not a back and forth kind of thing. Law and grace do not mix. It is about being delivered from slavery, and then perfected more through the rest of your life, but always under grace and never back under the law. Do you remember how Paul reacted when he found out the Galatians were placing themselves back under the law? He asked them "who has bewitched you?"

:thumbsup:.  And told them they had "fallen from grace", right?  Not that they weren't "saved", but that they were placing themselves back under a yoke of bondage rather than living in the liberty of the way of the cross.

Quote from: jabcat on July 11, 2009, 01:46:48 AM
Hi Seth.  I'm thinking and reading a bit on the topic.  I basically very much agree with your premises about the law and grace, etc., and I certainly understand the difference between switching tenses.  I'm just not sure that's exactly what Paul was doing and/or when and where.  And it seems to me that to emphatically state so would be either a) complicated and best done with extreme care and clear proofs, or b) (though done with good intent) conjecture.  You may have personally done 'a' very well, I just may need some time to examine and mull it.

Again, the basic premises you have about the Law of Moses showing our sin, and the Law of the Grace of Yesu being sufficient and the ultimate antidote for that sin, I strongly "Amen!".  Carry on, I'm looking at it.

Good points. While I believe that Paul is switching tenses like we often do, and does it so suddenly and without transition, that it doesn't change the meaning of the first half of the chapter, even if we take Paul to be saying these things about himself at present day, it only shows an experience under the law.

If Paul is talking about himself at the time of writing, he had placed himself under the law, and was trapped by sin again. The Law of Moses doesn't just reveal or show us our sin by itself. It does it by SIN using the law to grow exeedingly sinful within us. That is the mechanics of sin being revealed by Moses.

It isn't simply that the Law shows us what is good so that we compare it to ourselves (I think that is what people generalize Romans 7 to mean). It's that the law is actually USED by sin for that sin can grow within us and we become BOUND as slaves to sin. It is through that SLAVERY to sin caused by the law without grace, that sin that reveals sin to be sin. Then we are delivered to Christ for salvation, and delivered from the law as a result. That is why, if Paul is talking about himself, not only would he have to have abandoned Grace to teach him Godliness, he would be back under bondage to sin by the Law.

That simply would not make sense, and would make Paul a hypocrite because he would have told the Galatians to not seek righteousness through the law, then he turns around to attempt to follow a Mosaic commandment unto failure himself. Yikes. Most Christians see Romans 7 as a general struggle with sin, which we all identify with, but they don't consider the very important particulars of the chapter, and that is why they misinterpret it, and not even notice the lack of grace being emphasized in the chapter concerning the law.

Quote from: Seth on July 11, 2009, 01:00:16 AM
As far as I know, the Greek text from in Luke 3 concerning the genealogy is just a list of names. For example in verse 28, the Greek reads:

Luke 3:28
Enos, Seth, Adam, God.

That's why in the King James, the words "the son of" is in italics, because the translators added it to flesh it out.

Whereas in John 10:36 where it calls him the "Son of God" it says "huios theos" and the word for "son (huios)" is absent from Luke 3:28. And so is absent "monogenēs huios" in John 3:16 where it calls Jesus "the only begotten son."

Again, I'll say that Luke is giving a genealogy for Jesus.  To that effect, it is understood that each is the son of the one before, and if he meant to indicate otherwise regarding God and Adam, he could have made it clear.  Or, he could have just stopped at Adam.

Instead, he continues the genealogy to God. 

The implication is huge because of the importance it assigns Adam as the [eldest] son.   And, we see this tension between the oldest and youngest sons throughout the Old Testament--a type Old and New Covenant, a type of old and new Israel, a type of flesh and spirit, a type of Law and Grace--the children of the blood versus the children of the promise.

Anyway, it opened up a lot for me.

Very well, but an implication is not a statement. Implications rely much on interpretation rather than stated facts. To me, the implication of leaving out "begotten son of" when in relation to God is that while Adam was physically made by God, he was not born of the Spirit like Christ. If Adam was without sin, then the fact that he transgressed according to Romans 5 shows that a good tree can bring forth bad fruit. Adam can be contrasted with Abraham. Abraham did not "fall on his sword" concerning Isaac, he really went to kill his own son because God said so. Did Adam do the same? No, he transgressed a commandment and followed Eve. Jesus says that his brothers are them "who do the will of the Father in Heaven."

BTW, I just wanted to be clear that when I said that Christ slays Adam, I was talking about the Adamic nature of disobedience in the mind, not literal Adam. It was a metaphor. I am chief sinner along with Paul worthy of all rebuke by the Lord and I am not putting my sin off on Adam. I have great affection for him.  :HeartThrob:

 :cloud9: Molly  :thumbsup:

Someone said here that Grace is "FAVOR".  While that is true, it is stopping short of what Grace is and could give people the wrong understanding.  Grace is "APPROVAL".  Approval is favor but Favor is not APPROVAL.  Just wanted to make that distinction. I know there are many commentarys and concordances that will interpret it as "favor" but just wanted to give my opinion on the meaning.

Paul

Quote from: Seth on July 11, 2009, 02:38:10 AM
Very well, but an implication is not a statement. Implications rely much on interpretation rather than stated facts. To me, the implication of leaving out "begotten son of" when in relation to God is that while Adam was physically made by God, he was not born of the Spirit like Christ. If Adam was without sin, then the fact that he transgressed according to Romans 5 shows that a good tree can bring forth bad fruit. Adam can be contrasted with Abraham. Abraham did not "fall on his sword" concerning Isaac, he really went to kill his own son because God said so. Did Adam do the same? No, he transgressed a commandment and followed Eve. Jesus says that his brothers are them "who do the will of the Father in Heaven."

Adam was born by the Spirit of God when God who is Spirit breathed into the form created from the dust. God spoke of Adam as being perfect until iniquity was found in him and did not become the son in whom God was 'well pleased" with.

Ezekiel 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

I think the question that we must face is was their any life in the form that came to be called Adam before God breathed into it?

After God breathed into the form of Adam it was said to have become a living soul but later Paul spoke of himself before his conversion as alive to the world but dead unto God........ when God made man better than any of the other trees in the garden what does that statement mean?

Ezekiel 31:8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chestnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty. 9  I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him. 10 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast lifted up thyself in height, and he hath shot up his top among the thick boughs, and his heart is lifted up in his height;


Is the garden story about the creation of the first man or is it a prophecy of man getting the Holy Spirit and then committing a sin  :dontknow:

Who were the morning stars that jumped for joy before the foundations of the earth were formed ?

Lots of unknowns  :Chinscratch:

Blessings

Doug

Quote from: trettep on July 11, 2009, 05:19:52 AM
Someone said here that Grace is "FAVOR".  While that is true, it is stopping short of what Grace is and could give people the wrong understanding.  Grace is "APPROVAL".  Approval is favor but Favor is not APPROVAL.  Just wanted to make that distinction. I know there are many commentarys and concordances that will interpret it as "favor" but just wanted to give my opinion on the meaning.

Paul

Right, I agree. Grace is favor in that God shows that favor by releasing us from sin, even through teaching/chastisement. The point was is that grace is shown in God's mercy to take away the sin of those who have access by faith, not leave it there and pretend that it doesn't exist, like traditionally believed (like I used to believe).

Quote from: Livelystone on July 11, 2009, 09:57:13 AM
Adam was born by the Spirit of God when God who is Spirit breathed into the form created from the dust. God spoke of Adam as being perfect until iniquity was found in him and did not become the son in whom God was 'well pleased" with.

Ezekiel 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

I think the question that we must face is was their any life in the form that came to be called Adam before God breathed into it?

Really interesting thoughts Doug. Very thought provoking. Whenever I see that someone is "perfect in THY ways" a big bell goes off. It does not say he was perfect inside and out, or perfect in God's ways, but perfect in THY ways. It reminds me of when Paul said that he had "HIS OWN" righteousness which was by the law. But we know that the law is meant to reveal "the iniquity in thee."

I see that the Holy Spirit can be given to people, but not necessarily unto conversion of the soul. For example, the 70 disciples were empowered by the Spirit by Christ, in order to go from town to town and cast out devils. However, Jesus, also said to Peter before he died "when you are converted, feed your brothers." The prophets had the Spirit in them....but in order to forecast the Promise of the Spirit to come through the Messiah. So the question is not whether he had the Holy Spirit (which I personally do not believe he did), the question is whether Adam was converted by it if he did.

There will be many people who cast out devils in Christ's name, and he will say "depart from me." But Christ cannot deny his own Body. Having the Spirit is one thing, but being converted by it is something else entirely.

QuoteEzekiel 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

How can you be perfect and still have a flaw?

The Law has its limitations, depending, as it does, on our own human frailty to abide by it.

Hebrews 8:7
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.


19For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

--Heb 7


We cannot be 'perfect' in God's eyes without Christ, because perfect means complete.  Yes, Adam was there, joined to God as he was in the garden.   Outside the garden, we need Christ.


1 Peter 5:10
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.



"perfect"
G2675
καταρτίζω
katartizō
kat-ar-tid'-zo
From G2596 and a derivative of G739; to complete thoroughly, that is, repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust: - fit, frame, mend, (make) perfect (-ly join together), prepare, restore.

Good afternoon Seth

I do not think that there is to be a conversion of the soul as far as our old one being changed but be given a new one just as we were given a new spirit that was our free gift of salvation....... Every spirit has its own soul and it is the tabernacle (or covering) of the spirit.......... our old soul (eve) along with the spirit we were born with (Adam) is whom Jesus referred to when he said let the dead bury their dead and follow Him

Adam chose Eve instead of the female he was first created with when God blew His breath into Adam that was the very essence of Him thus making Adam to be both male and female before Eve ever came to be. This other woman is the woman with the seed that will always be at enmity with the serpent....... I believe it is the woman from above that Paul referred to as the Jerusalem who is the mother of us all and is our inheritance that is undefiled, UNCORRUPTIBLE and reserved for us in heaven. It is the mind of Christ, and is the bride for the Holy Spirit in us seen being given to us in Rev 21 1-3 . It is the very soul of Jesus that is the balance due for the "earnest of our inheritance" that we already received.

Our old soul being made able to ascend unto heaven is another one of those teachings of the church that is keeping the body separate from the head and as Jesus said nothing will ascend unto heaven that has not first descended (Eve was never in heaven).

No one seems to have a problem with the knowledge that we were given Adam and Eve for our original spirit and soul at our natural birth but for some reason cannot accept that we are given the Holy spirit of Jesus for the earnest of our inheritance and will receive the female half that is the soul of Jesus at a time determined by the Lord....... meanwhile we are to follow after Him who is the Holy Spirit in us

So Brother Seth........ This is just doorknob that opens to a whole new room and I pray that the Lord will allow us to become as one voice and on one accord concerning how our mortal soul will be putting on immortality............ we already have an immortal male spirit given to us from Him and all we need is the equivalent immortal soul also to be given to us so that we may receive the salvation of the soul

Blessings

Doug

 
 Hi Seth and Doug  
when reading Gen 1  and than chapter 2  
Adam was made  first  in the image of God and  in Chapter two  from the dust  
seems we do have an inward and outward  distinction  here :icon_flower:


Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.  
Gen 1:27 So God created man  [in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and[Strong's H120 - 'adam ] female created he them.


28   And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

 one thing is  Name  man  Strong's H120 - 'adam and it seems the inward Image of Man Adam is male and female  in the begining

 now in Gen 2.  Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.  

there is lots to  consider  when you look at chapters one and two in Genesis  :HeartThrob:  rose

Quote from: rosered on July 11, 2009, 08:24:51 PM

 Hi Seth and Doug  
when reading Gen 1  and than chapter 2  
Adam was made  first  in the image of God and  in Chapter two  from the dust  
seems we do have an inward and outward  distinction  here :icon_flower:
 :HeartThrob:  rose

Amen RR

Just like the water (the Word) was in existence before the the waterpots were that were filled with water (the Word) and when they were filled all the way to the top with that water (the Word) it was changed to wine (Christ).

Blessings to you

Doug

Quote from: Livelystone on July 11, 2009, 08:22:16 PM

Adam chose Eve instead of the female he was first created with when God blew His breath into Adam that was the very essence of Him thus making Adam to be both male and female before Eve ever came to be. This other woman is the woman with the seed that will always be at enmity with the serpent.......

What do you mean?

Quote from: sparrow on July 12, 2009, 12:18:56 AM

Quote from: Livelystone on July 11, 2009, 08:22:16 PM

Adam chose Eve instead of the female he was first created with when God blew His breath into Adam that was the very essence of Him thus making Adam to be both male and female before Eve ever came to be. This other woman is the woman with the seed that will always be at enmity with the serpent.......

What do you mean?

Hi Molly

Good question and especially so since it is about something that has only been talked about amongst very few since the time of the Apostles. (Although there have been some going back as far as Jane Leade who was a 17th century prophet whom did acknowledge this "other woman" who was "from the beginning" but did not quite grasp the full significance of her because IMO it was not yet time for it to be revealed)

Simply speaking (because I am both simple and base) God who is a Spirit with a Soul (male and female) breathed into the nostrils of Adam Himself so consequently Adam became a "living soul". (because Adam was then made alive unto God having not yet been separated by the sin that caused Paul to speak of his own past as dead to God because of sin yet he was alive unto the world)

Fast forward back to Genesis when God turned to the woman and said that there "would be enmity between her seed and the seed of the serpent".......... well we know that woman could not be Eve because at that time Eve was in cahoots with the serpent and was in fact at enmity with God rather than the serpent........... Amen?......... I think so !!!

So who is the woman that had the seed that is Christ who would bruise the head of the serpent? ..........that woman in Adam is the female half of God whom has the Spirit (seed) of God within her just like Mary did when she was impregnated with the Holy Spirit of God, when God breathed Himself into Adam just as he did to Mary.

She unlike Eve did not get the boot from the Garden of Eden that translated means "the fence of God on earth" and within that fence was righteousness with God that is reserved for us as the reconciliation of that what was lost at the fall.

I will pray that you see what I am saying here Molly........ as you already know I have always considered you special and chosen of God be amongst the first order.

Blessings to you

Doug

My spirit has never comfortable with the idea that the Father fertilized one of Mary's eggs.
For as He newly created the first Adam from the dust of the earth.
The second Adam also was newly created.

Quote from: Molly on July 11, 2009, 08:18:50 PM

QuoteEzekiel 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

How can you be perfect and still have a flaw?

You can be perfect in THY ways and your righteousness can be dirty rags. That was my point.  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Livelystone on July 11, 2009, 08:22:16 PM
Good afternoon Seth

I do not think that there is to be a conversion of the soul as far as our old one being changed but be given a new one just as we were given a new spirit that was our free gift of salvation....... Every spirit has its own soul and it is the tabernacle (or covering) of the spirit.......... our old soul (eve) along with the spirit we were born with (Adam) is whom Jesus referred to when he said let the dead bury their dead and follow Him

Conversion is a change of mind, a renewing. What I was referring to is having the Spirit unto conversion like Peter did at Pentacost, and having the Holy Spirit not unto conversion like Peter did when he was casting out devils. The Spirit is with people to certain tasks and purposes. It was not in God's plan to convert people until Christ was risen, so the Spirit was given according to His plan, which why someone can have the Spirit and not be converted.

QuoteOur old soul being made able to ascend unto heaven is another one of those teachings of the church that is keeping the body separate from the head and as Jesus said nothing will ascend unto heaven that has not first descended (Eve was never in heaven).

This might be a difference in how we see the "soul." I am referring to the mind, which is our life (psuche) in that it makes us what we are, everything that we identify with. It is by our mind that we can ascend to heaven, while our flesh is on earth. Do you remember how Christ said that "no man has ascended to Heaven, except the Son of God, who is in Heaven." That is because his mind was with God. Yes, our old soul must die, and a new soul reborn, and that is what it means to be in the Kingdom of God ("righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit").

QuoteNo one seems to have a problem with the knowledge that we were given Adam and Eve for our original spirit and soul at our natural birth but for some reason cannot accept that we are given the Holy spirit of Jesus for the earnest of our inheritance and will receive the female half that is the soul of Jesus at a time determined by the Lord....... meanwhile we are to follow after Him who is the Holy Spirit in us

As I see it, our mother, New Jerusalem is what we have entered into, being as that it is the Bride. And we have entered the Bride in as much as we have the earnest of the redemption. I do not see the marriage with Christ as being a single event. Marriage is simply a symbol of becoming ONE with another. We are becoming one with Christ daily. That is why Jesus compared the kingdom to a bit of leaven that eventually leavens the whole lump. That is why I think it is unnecessary to separate a joining with Christ's soul at a later time, with joining his Spirit now. Both are happening simultaneously in a growing fashion until our flesh is gone and our bodies are new.

To be joined with Christ's soul is to have a mind renewal daily this day, BY the Spirit which is a process that grows as leaven until it leavens the whole lump.

Quote from: rosered on July 11, 2009, 08:24:51 PM

 Hi Seth and Doug  
when reading Gen 1  and than chapter 2  
Adam was made  first  in the image of God and  in Chapter two  from the dust  
seems we do have an inward and outward  distinction  here :icon_flower:


Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.  
Gen 1:27 So God created man  [in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and[Strong's H120 - 'adam ] female created he them.


28   And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

 one thing is  Name  man  Strong's H120 - 'adam and it seems the inward Image of Man Adam is male and female  in the begining

 now in Gen 2.  Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.  

there is lots to  consider  when you look at chapters one and two in Genesis  :HeartThrob:  rose

Consider something interesting: God made Adam in his image. Yet do you remember what God said after Adam and Eve ate the fruit? He said "They have become like one of us." Therefore, it is possible for something to be made in the image of something else, yet without containing ALL characteristics of it. It's like how we can create a graven (carved) image of God, but that does not mean the image contains all attributes. This is why we are still being "conformed to the image of the Son."

The slain lambs of the Law of Moses were images of Christ to come and even Adam was a type of Christ, but because something is a type, does not make it the VERY thing. The statue of David is an image of a man, but only contains the form, not the very soul of the man or his very nature.

Quote from: Livelystone on July 12, 2009, 01:26:46 AM
Hi Molly

Good question and especially so since it is about something that has only been talked about amongst very few since the time of the Apostles. (Although there have been some going back as far as Jane Leade who was a 17th century prophet whom did acknowledge this "other woman" who was "from the beginning" but did not quite grasp the full significance of her because IMO it was not yet time for it to be revealed)

Simply speaking (because I am both simple and base) God who is a Spirit with a Soul (male and female) breathed into the nostrils of Adam Himself so consequently Adam became a "living soul". (because Adam was then made alive unto God having not yet been separated by the sin that caused Paul to speak of his own past as dead to God because of sin yet he was alive unto the world)

Fast forward back to Genesis when God turned to the woman and said that there "would be enmity between her seed and the seed of the serpent".......... well we know that woman could not be Eve because at that time Eve was in cahoots with the serpent and was in fact at enmity with God rather than the serpent........... Amen?......... I think so !!!

So who is the woman that had the seed that is Christ who would bruise the head of the serpent? ..........that woman in Adam is the female half of God whom has the Spirit (seed) of God within her just like Mary did when she was impregnated with the Holy Spirit of God, when God breathed Himself into Adam just as he did to Mary.

She unlike Eve did not get the boot from the Garden of Eden that translated means "the fence of God on earth" and within that fence was righteousness with God that is reserved for us as the reconciliation of that what was lost at the fall.

I will pray that you see what I am saying here Molly........ as you already know I have always considered you special and chosen of God be amongst the first order.

Blessings to you

Doug

Hey...
I'm sparrow... not molly... :laughing7:  :HeartThrob:


I am just not following what you're saying.
But peace to ya. I guess this thread is just not for me.
(no offense to anyone here. just being honest.)

peace,
sparrow

The change of tenses described in the first OP or like the change of voice in Song 1:2 from speaking of him as though he is absent changing to speaking to him directly...

en⋅al⋅la⋅ge

[en-al-uh-jee] – noun Rhetoric.
the use of one grammatical form in place of another, as the plural for the singular in the editorial use of we.
Origin:
1575–85; < LL < Gk enallag an interchange, deriv. from base of enalláttein to give in exchange; cf. en- 2 , agio
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.

http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=enallage&ia=luna (http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=enallage&ia=luna)

I was present when a brother spoke a rather lengthy and detailed "prophecy" which, when it was understood, explained why the sister was so hysterical. What had been told in future tense as prophecy was a word of wisdom and knowledge about what had already happened across a number of weeks in a primitive part of Africa she had just returned from and nobody else could have known about it.

Seth,,

So much comes and goes through our awareness things we haven't payed a direct look at lurk in the background, surfacing to face uncertainties raised by so many other voices speaking confused ideas with God's words.  It has been nagging me in the back of my mind for a while, this real need to clear up the confusion between law and grace; but, like so many other things, I don't know how I could have gone about it even if I had become sufficiently conscious of the problem.  That preparation means all the more respect is due to the working of God in you to bring this word to us.  I'm really blessed to be brought into a greater clarity. I still have questions, but they may now be better asked so sooner answered.

Quote from: Seth on July 10, 2009, 02:40:20 AMWhat I have learned so far is this. We have received the deposit of the inheritance until the redemption comes. This means we do not have the Spirit without measure, but a measured part, so that we may fit into a many membered body, not all are eyes, not all are feet.

I don't know the full answer between two sides of this.  Let me try telling some of it and see what you all think.  The Spirit given now is not God as He is.  "When He appears, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is." While there are gifts of healings now, when we have immortal bodies we won't need healing.  So, the Spirit now is the "Spirit of Promise," meaning, a "Promissory Spirit," that, in manifesting regarding partial and passing needs, promises the Spirit as He is when the purchased possession of our body is liberated into born of God in its physical aspect.

I say that because He never gives the Spirit by measure due to the nature of God the Holy Spirit. One has said, "Wherever there is any of God, there is all of God." Notice this verse more closely:  "For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him." (Jn 3:34, AV)  It gets misprinted, specially in e versions.  Because of copy and paste from InstaVerse I just now had to manually re-insert the original italics because they didn't copy into here.  "Unto him" is added by the translators.  What is literally said is:  "God gives not the Spirit by measure."  That also is what the Concordant Literal Translation has:  "For He Whom God commissions is speaking God's declarations, for God is not giving the spirit by measure."

God said that Adam was perfect in all his ways until iniquity was found in him....... nothing more and nothing less

That statement by God speaking of Adam signifies a difference between when before iniquity was found in Adam and when after iniquity was found in Adam...... "iniquity found in him" was the result of disobedience when Adam ate the fruit that had the seeds of evil knowledge within it....... at that time it evil had transformed from being "outside knowledge of evil" into a life giving force that within Adam that Paul spoke of as the "law of sin" in his members bound by the law of the seed to bring forth more evil aka when iniquity was found in Adam........

The "law of sin" by definition is a principality meaning it is a life giving force albeit one that brings forth death....... The law of sin is NOT the law of God that was given to Moses but is what Paul called to be the messenger of satan that was a thorn in his flesh in 2nd Corr 12..... Paul knew to call it a "thorn" because God spoke of those who worshipped false gods whom Israel did not destroy as He had commanded them would become "thorns in their flesh" for all generations.

Everyone here has the law of sin within them....... it has been handed down within the male seed for all generations of mankind and it brings forth a life destined for death......... so the Bible says "in Adam all men die".  Eve as one flesh with Adam in us carries this seed as they were both in the transgression of Gods commandment "thou shalt not because both ate the same evil seed that by law would bring forth more evil from the "one flesh" the two of them had become.

Because they "both" have evil within them and are as Paul said "earthy", neither of them can ever ascend unto heaven !!!....... Jesus also said that only what comes down from heaven (the Holy Spirit and His Bride) will ascend unto heaven and so did God in Ezek 28 when He spoke of Adam who had been the covering cherub "would be cast out of the mountain of God AND DESTROYED".

There are three ways in which we are to attain perfection and those ways are body, spirit and soul.......... so Jesus said I am the way, (him,body) the truth (soul,mind) and the life (spirit)....... We here have been given a Holy Spirit and by following after it in obedience may apprehend the mind of Christ providing we first have both the truth of the scriptures and the love of Jesus for others...... however not until after their is some sort of "death" can one be resurrected without sin.

Can their be a death onto resurrection in this life........... IMO yes their can be but it has not yet happened to anyone as there are not yet any "manifested sons".


Blessings

Doug

Jeremiah 21:13
I am against you, Jerusalem, you who live above this valley on the rocky plateau, declares the LORD— you who say, "Who can come against us? Who can enter our refuge?"

12 Woe to him who builds a city with bloodshed
    and founds a town with injustice!
--Hab 2




Hi Doug--

You are saying that there are two women in the garden.  Are these the two who are talked about throughout scripture?

One has children, one is barren.  One is slave, one is free.

One has a husband, one is desolate.



25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written:
  "Be glad, O barren woman,
      who bears no children;
   break forth and cry aloud,
      you who have no labor pains;
   because more are the children of the desolate woman
      than of her who has a husband.
---Gal 4



A barren woman who bears no children but has more children than her married counterpart.

It seems a contradiction--most certainly a mystery.

One is the Law, and one is grace, faith, and Spirit.

Are you saying the soul that Adam left behind in the garden is the woman without a husband?

Was this Adam's first love?   Was leaving her his first death?

Molly

Yes I am saying that there are two woman in the garden....... Eve the mother of all things earthly and the other one being the woman from above who Paul spoke of as the mother of us all whom I say is also the one that has the seed that will always be at enmity with Satan

I have not before now considered the answers for the questions you have raised concerning the desolate and/or barren however I have always seen a parallel between Eve who should have not have ever been any more than "just a 'helper" for Adam to  Abraham taking the handmaiden to bed and bringing forth the line of the flesh........ for sure Paul links the story of the bondwoman and the handmaiden to the mother of the promised child to who would be Sarah, Abraham true wife to the mother of us all "from above"


Blessings

Doug

Quote from: reFORMer on July 12, 2009, 07:31:47 AM
I say that because He never gives the Spirit by measure due to the nature of God the Holy Spirit. One has said, "Wherever there is any of God, there is all of God." Notice this verse more closely:  "For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him." (Jn 3:34, AV)  It gets misprinted, specially in e versions.  Because of copy and paste from InstaVerse I just now had to manually re-insert the original italics because they didn't copy into here.  "Unto him" is added by the translators.  What is literally said is:  "God gives not the Spirit by measure."  That also is what the Concordant Literal Translation has:  "For He Whom God commissions is speaking God's declarations, for God is not giving the spirit by measure."

Hi ReFORMer,
I think the context is showing that the unlimited measure of the Spirit is being qulaified to Christ. Here is why. In context, the "one who is sent" is being spoken about by John regarding Jesus Christ. The verse directly afterwards shows us this:

John 3:34
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

What I see is that Jesus was given all things unto his hand. But in 1 Corinthians 12, we see what Christ was given, some are not given: are all healers? Are all prophets? etc, where Jesus was all these things. I think the reason is to first, in the flesh, reveal his Body, then upon dying and being resurrected, further revealing that body as formed from many people. Jesus was the completed man that we are meant to become corporately, and explains why he was given the Spirit without measure unto being without sin, while we are given the Spirit, and are not without sin, as a downpayment for the redemption of the purchased possession. Really, the redemption (the collecting) of the purchased possession is done all through the Spirit. That is why Paul speaks about an "aionios weight of glory" in the future as compared to the struggles that we see now which are passing.

That "weight of glory" which we press forward for in hope, is still the Spirit, only at a greater weight.

Quote from: DougYes I am saying that there are two woman in the garden....... Eve the mother of all things earthly and the other one being the woman from above who Paul spoke of as the mother of us all whom I say is also the one that has the seed that will always be at enmity with Satan

Hi Doug, One thing that I've long wondered about is that our Lord's name is the feminine form of the word for salvation--that is, my question, why feminine?


Genesis 49:18
I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD.


"thy salvation"

H3444
ישׁוּעה
y'shû‛âh
yesh-oo'-aw
Feminine passive participle of H3467[; something saved, that is, (abstractly) deliverance; hence aid, victory, prosperity: - deliverance, health, help (-ing), salvation, save, saving (health), welfare.


I have waited for y'shû‛âh, O LORD.


29 Now, Master,

    You can dismiss Your slave in peace,

    according to Your word.

    30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation.

--Luke 2



Why is Jesus portrayed as the feminine?  The masculine form of the word 'salvation' is yasha H3467 (which means to be open, wide or free).

The first form is the person being saved, where as the second is the person who is doing the saving.



Christ, as our Saviour, has to come to this earth first, and be in need of deliverance himself, which deliverance he receives on the cross.  Before the cross, then, there is a kind of passive type of deliverance, the feminine, whereas after the cross, it becomes masculine and pro-active, that is, yasha.

1 Chronicles 16:35
And say ye, Save us, O God of our salvation, and gather us together, and deliver us from the heathen, that we may give thanks to thy holy name, and glory in thy praise.


[God] "of our salvation"
H3468
ישׁע    ישׁע
yesha‛ yêsha‛
yeh'-shah, yay'-shah
From H3467; liberty, deliverance, prosperity: - safety, salvation, saving.


Our Salvation God is masculine but his salvation, the Lord Jesus on this earth, is feminine.

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
--Gen 3

The seed comes from the woman, but it produces a manchild.

"seed"
H2233
זרע
zera‛
zeh'-rah
From H2232; seed; figuratively fruit, plant, sowing time, posterity: -  X carnally, child, fruitful, seed (-time), sowing-time.




I'm beginning to understand the many 'passive'[feminine] instructions we are given in the name of [our Lord's] salvation--turn the other cheek, love your enemies, repay evil with good.  This is the female seed that will overcome, and restore us to the garden of our God, as the sons of God.


Galatians 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Molly

When Jesus was on earth he was the expression of God and had come God the Spirit as the soul who comes from a spirit. The soul is always feminine and comes from a seed provided by a male so even though Jesus who is decidedly male was still the seven fold fulness of God's Soul that contains the original spirit as seen in Isa. 11: 2

Isaiah 11:2 (King James Version)

And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

Every spirit has a soul that is image and likeness and of the spirit Jesus is the image and likeness of God that is a prophecy of the Will of God stated for us in Ge 1: 26..........

Genesis 1:26 (King James Version)

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Thus the spirit of Jesus within us is the spirit of prophecy that John saw fulfilled in the following verse

Revelation 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Although the soul is always feminine the spirit is gender free so that it may become either the lesser or the greater as need be. For example when Jesus walked on earth He was the lesser of God but when we become in the image and likeness of God, Jesus who has become our father will be then be the greater.

Ironically there are several species of fish that change their sex from male to female (to bare offspring) and then eventually back to male..

Blessings

Doug

Quote from: DougThe soul is always feminine and comes from a seed provided by a male so even though Jesus who is decidedly male was still the seven fold fulness of God's Soul that contains the original spirit as seen in Isa. 11: 2

Isaiah 11:2 (King James Version)

And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

And the spirit of the LORD

"shall rest" [upon him]

H5117
נוּח
nûach
noo'-akh
A primitive root; to rest, that is, settle down; used in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively, intransitively, transitively and causatively (to dwell, stay, let fall, place, let alone, withdraw, give comfort, etc.): - cease, be confederate, lay, let down, (be) quiet, remain, (cause to, be at, give, have, make to) rest, set down. Compare H3241.


32John gave further evidence, saying, I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and it dwelt on Him [never to depart].

    33And I did not know Him nor recognize Him, but He Who sent me to baptize in (with) water said to me, Upon Him Whom you shall see the Spirit descend and remain, that One is He Who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

    34And I have seen [that happen--I actually did see it] and my testimony is that this is the Son of God!

--John 1



He wears the spirit of the LORD like a robe.

Does the soul that comes from a seed produce the seed of his father [spirit]?  Here we see a soul that is covered by the spirit of the LORD.   If the soul is feminine, isn't it the soul that, like a mother,  gives birth, --like giving birth to like?

Isaiah 53:11
He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.



It is his very soul that Jesus gives for [to] us.



1 John 3:16

Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: ..



"life"

G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.



Until Christ appeared, that soul [woman] was barren.

Is it the soul of Christ that becomes [gives birth to] the quickening spirit?

How can a house divided, stand?
When our Lord God Jesus Christ spoke, He never spoke more than a few hundred Words, and they were awed.
And often, at the end of a parable, He said: "Let those who have ears to hear..."
The parable was used, perhaps, not to teach the masses but to keep the deaf from hearing.
Each man in is own order.

Jesus is the soul of God.  What a lovely way to think of it.

John 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

WELL — YES.

 :cloud9: AMEN Livelystone! Blessings.....

But this time the soul could not eat of the wrong tree, for He is the Right Tree.

 :cloud9: Amen, Beloved Servant....... :thumbsup:

Someone has said, "Wherever there is any of God, there is all of God." I really believe it is of the nature of God that, "He gives not the Spirit by measure" (Jn 3:34)  When Jesus as Spirit came into me I received not a piece of Him, but HIM.  HE came to dwell within.

Whether Seed or sprout, tree or flower and fruit, it is all the Apple. In God as Spirit coming to be manifesting His presence to us it may be compared to a holograph. It may be on a glass plate that when it is broken into many pieces and the laser streams are passed through each piece, the whole image is there, only from a slightly different perspective than another piece off of the original whole.

In the beginning of Hebrews, after mentioning the ways God has previously manifested, the ultimate and never to be superceded manifestation is spoken of.  "God...in the last of these days speaks to us in a Son..." (Heb 1:1-2, CLT)  It is (anarthous) without an article. No "a" son.  If He had wanted to speak of the Jesus of history there would have been an article:  "the" Son. As it stands, more generic, without an article, it should be translated:  "God...in the last of these days speaks to us in Sonship," or, "God...speaks to us in Son-wise," or, "in the category of Sonship."  This makes a big difference in how you read the Bool of Hebrews.  The way we are constituted sons is through union with The Son.

When the Holy Spirit is in me it is not a part of the Holy Spirit.  When I am in HIM, it is not a part of me; but, from the innermost we come into union. "We are made to drink of one spirit," not a one-ten-thousandths of the Spirit."  When Jesus (by the Holy Spirit) is in me, all that HE is and does is in me. I didn't get just HIS awareness of sin and love of God. I didn't get only something of HIM as Healer.  HE came into me.  My maturity is how available I am to HIM.  I may express HIM as Teacher today; but, as I mature I will pass on, increasing in the range of sharing HIM with others, being more used to draw them to HIM, an evangelist's functioning.  As I deepen in experiencing the Mysteries both of HIS nature and accessed by HIS nature, drawn more into things requiring qualification, I function in Jesus the Prophet in me.  As I grow in the number of experiences of HIM, the breadth of of HIS Character manifestly mine, I qualify as a special emissary or for apostolic sending.  Even the apostle has more to grow into: the fulness of Christ, the victory even over death, being raised out from among the dead.

The pulpit centric nature of the apostate "church," if it deserves the name, disqualifies it from this process of coming into "the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ."  Those captive in the cages of Babylon, stunted in their growth into the likeness of the Son of God, are not reliable guages or examples of what the will of God is for our lives.  I comfort myself that, "There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number.  My dove, my undefiled is but one..." (Song of Songs 6:8-9, AV)  The continuation unfolds a threefold oneness in verse 9.  Though in the house, virgins (outer court) have no intimacey, no interpenetration of the word.  They've been attracted by the "revival." They are available.  One experience of His presence is permanent. Once "chosen," they are never again virgin.  The concubine (holy place) is either barren or bears what is not the restoration of the true image. The queen runs lawfully, reproducing the exact likeness.  The inheritance comes through the queens.  That born of them will rule in all the earth.  But it all is one.  Whether 30, 60, or 100 fold, it is all of those bringing fruitful multiplication of the word of God. Jesus says, "They shall be...one shepherd."

OH! Reformer, that is beautiful — please continue.

HI ReFORMER,
I think we see things very similarly. When man is given a measured portion of the Spirit, I do not mean to say that the Spirit ITSELF is divided, only that we still wait for the "aionios WEIGHT of glory." Perhaps we are seeing the same thing only through a slightly different perspective. The WEIGHT of glory is what we hope for.

The sons are always appointed.  We see that Able, called righteous by Jesus, was an appointed son as Seth was appointed also to replace him.

25And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

The seed of Christ is an appointed seed.

Later, Paul will use this same word to describe himself.


2 Timothy 1:11
Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.


The appointed seed was rare in the Old Testament, but in the New Covenant, the seed is seen to be sprouting into harvest everywhere.



John 4:35
Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

In preparation for sonship, we go through all the stages and trials seen in the Old Testament, first earthly priests, then earthly judges, then earthly kings, then earthly warriors, then earthly prophets, then learning by faith to close the mouth of lions and build an ark and go forward into a place we know not.

Still we are waiting for the appointed time of heaven on earth--


....[waiting expectantly and confidently] looking forward to the city which has fixed and firm foundations, whose Architect and Builder is God.

--Heb 11

 :cloud9: LOVE IT REFORMER AND AMEN........ :thumbsup: Blessings....

Seth, back to the discussion of Paul's struggles, him saying "no longer I that do it", the subsequent discussion of Paul/us being accountable/responsible, etc....I've questioned if since the above is stated by Paul and true, then was the sin even being laid to his account at that point...if it's "no longer I that do it", he'd been reconciled through grace, etc.

I don't know of any off the top of my head...do you know of any scriptures/places where Paul talked about needing to ask God for forgiveness of his sins, or even confess them?  I know he said things like "no longer I that do it...God's grace is sufficient...Jesus would deliver him"...

Peter talked about confessing sins (some would argue that was a message to the Jews/House of Israel...that although they were also saved through Jesus, there were still some cultural/"Jewish" differences for those that had been given the Law as opposed to the nations/Gentiles).  That's been hashed and re-hashed before   :punish:.  Right now I'm specifically bringing into view Paul's position on confession of sin and needing to ask forgivenss, etc. .   I haven't researched it thoroughly, but I can't think of any.  Seems to me Paul sort of "separated" himself, as a new creation, from sin; focusing more on grace, forgiveness, reconciliation, etc. - just knowing/trusting Jesus had it covered/taken care of  :scratchhead:.

Paul may well of not confessed his sins however he did ask God to remove the "thorn in his flesh" that was the cause of him having to deal with sin and doing what he "chose mot to do".

Also we have Jesus who taught us to pray daily asking for forgiveness of our sin as we forgave others of their sins against us

Blessings

Doug

Quote from: Livelystone on July 16, 2009, 04:22:59 PM
Paul may well of not confessed his sins however he did ask God to remove the "thorn in his flesh" that was the cause of him having to deal with sin and doing what he "chose mot to do".

Also we have Jesus who taught us to pray daily asking for forgiveness of our sin as we forgave others of their sins against us

Blessings

Doug

cool,

i see forgiveness as a state of mind, repentence too, lets walk in them all day long.

peace
euty

QuoteSeth, back to the discussion of Paul's struggles, him saying "no longer I that do it", the subsequent discussion of Paul/us being accountable/responsible, etc....I've questioned if since the above is stated by Paul and true, then was the sin even being laid to his account at that point...if it's "no longer I that do it", he'd been reconciled through grace, etc.

Yes, the sin was laid to his account by the law itself, when he was under the law, remembering that slavery to sin is by the law, and deliverance from sin is by the Spirit. So even though his was not the causal responsibility for lust, the law laid it to his charge - so that in his struggle, he would recognize his slavery.

When he was under the law, and in the flesh, he wanted to obey the good commandments, but slavery kept him from doing it and brought him under guilt. By being delivered from the law and the body of sin, the Holy Spirit STANDS between the body of sin, and our minds. That is how the flesh is crucified before it is physically dead. The Holy Spirit is the barrier between us and the body of sin, which is why Romans 8 declares that when we have the Spirit we are no longer in the flesh.

HOWEVER, we are still GROWING in the Spirit, while Christ was the visible image of the invisible God having the full measure of the Spirit, the weight of Glory that we hope for. Christ was perfectly mature because he was the visible image of perfect maturity (God). That is why, though we still have sin, we GROW enough to maturity so that more and more, the lusts of the seed of sin die out and our minds are completely dead to the lusts it produces.

Accountablity is useful to God even when the causal responsibility is not placed on man. It's useful for him to make us accountable so that we will desire deliverance.

QuoteI don't know of any off the top of my head...do you know of any scriptures/places where Paul talked about needing to ask God for forgiveness of his sins, or even confess them?  I know he said things like "no longer I that do it...God's grace is sufficient...Jesus would deliver him"...

Yes, the reason we ask God for forgiveness is to show our humility. We SHOULD want to be delivered from sin, and God does not resist the humble. So God's grace actually brings us to a place of more humility so that if/when we sin we WANT to be humble enough to ask for forgiveness. God resists the proud, and asking forgiveness simply shows our humility.

Can you think of any places where Paul said he needed to confess his sins or ask for forgiveness?

No, I see in Acts 19 (?) where Paul says "God is calling all men everywhere to repent" (paraphrase). Repentance is not the same as asking for forgiveness, but it is a change of mind. Actually, in Paul's conversion, he doesn't ask for forgiveness, and in fact on Pentacost, I don't think there is any sign that ANY of the Apostles asked for it. The Spirit just came upon them.

In Romans 6, 7, and 8 there is no indication that a formal request for forgiveness is necessary. HOWEVER, going back to the repentance part, both chapters 7 & 8 describe that change of mind pretty clearly. So I don't think that it says "God's grace is sufficient" should be read to mean that not having a change of mind is necessary, which some in UR believe, unfortunately; quite the opposite. The change of mind is what the Gospel is all about.

As to the two-Gospel theory, I don't see things that way. All signs point to all apostles being of one accord regarding THE Gospel. IMHO

QuoteRepentance is not the same as asking for forgiveness, but it is a change of mind.

"repent"

G3340
μετανοέω
metanoeō
met-an-o-eh'-o
From G3326 and G3539; to think differently or afterwards, that is, reconsider (morally to feel compunction): - repent.


"a change of mind"--metanoeo



G3539
νοιέω
noieō
noy-eh'-o
From G3563; to exercise the mind (observe), that is, (figuratively) to comprehend, heed: - consider, perceive, think, understand.