Tentmaker Forum

What have you guys learned and been inspired to do regarding the "flesh"?

Battle it by praying, rebuking satan, confessing/asking forgiveness for evil thoughts, pride, lust, etc?  Keep "pressing in" and seeking Him?

Or, trusting in God's provision, believing all is nailed to the stake, believing "it's no longer I that do it but the sin that dwells in me"?  Not just willfully and carelessly sinning more so "that grace may abound", but still, resting in His grace, and by doing so let Him work His work.

Having been brought up in a very strict, legalistic environment, as well as my own personality, I tend to do a combination of those things, probably mostly leaning towards not trusting nearly enough.   Seems there's some sort of healthy balance between "things will turn out just right in the end" with "Father still spanks and He requires obedience". 

What are your experiences? 

The Flesh PROFITS NOTHHING   :icon_flower: such is the NATURAL MAN

Or, trusting in God's provision, believing all is nailed to the stake, believing "it's no longer I that do it but the sin that dwells in me"?  Not just willfully and carelessly sinning more so "that grace may abound", but still, resting in His grace, and by doing so let Him work His work.

:icon_flower:

So do you see any struggle at all for us Taf?  One thing I thought of then forgot to mention was, Paul saying he crucified his flesh and died daily.  Do you understand that as him simply looking to and trusting God rather than him making some sort of "effort" to battle any evil thoughts or attitudes, etc.?  He said he did what he didn't want to do, and didn't do what he wanted to do, almost as if he accepted that's the way it was UNTIL he was fully delivered by Christ Jesus.  Again, God's work not his at all?  Because as you say, any actions by the flesh are useless - even if done against unruly flesh!     Simply done by trusting and believing?     

I know when I go through a period...I see it for what it is,and look forward to the day when it won't have anymore desire in me.God brought it and allowed me to see it and know that it too will be taken care of.No condemnation required!
blessings :icon_king:

Personally, I am closer to the first of your statements.  With each morning there is a renewed battle with my flesh.  I know my salvation is secure.  I know God's grace abounds in my life.  With that said, I believe Jesus asked of us to be perfect.  Matthew 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.  This is the goal...and we should strive for it daily.  It is not "legalistic" to strive to live a life pleasing to God.  Legalistic is abusing yourself with your past sins and or trying to save yourself.  You should be grieved, ask for forgiveness and turn away.  This is a daily battle for me in many areas.  If trying to live a holy life were legalistic then why the abundance of scriptures instructing us how to lead a fruitful life pleasing to God?

Legalism=Restricts the blood of Christ, forcing us to complete the act of salvation.  It says if we do A, B,C and don't do D,E,F we are saved.  This is nonsense and destructive to the Christian walk.

Walking by grace= We strive to live lives pleasing to God because we love him, want to please him and are thankful for our salvation.  We know our salvation is secure and because of the peace that wonderful gift brings we offer ourselves as living sacrifices.  We ache for our heavenly body...our heavenly home so until then we will conduct ourselves in ways that build up and love others.

I think people should take advantage of the knowledge we have today, as well as apply biblical methods you mentioned.

One technique I used to battle the flesh which was quite effective, was to give myself permission to fail, that way when I did fail, which was going to happen in any case, I was prepared for it, thus did not fall under condeming myself and forgiveness was much easier. The plan of course is to make sure that I had permision to fail, but I had to resist, a bit like a computer game, where if one fails they have continues left to continue the game and advance.


Also there seems to be misunderstanding in the body of christ who think the flesh is evil, probaby due to translation issues. God works through the flesh, He uses a mans and womans flesh based hands to give to the poor, that alone should get one thinking.
:2c:

Jabcat. I believe that what you have brought forth are the answers and the problems. Let go and let God and then stumble right there before you can finish the good and end up doing the part that is bad.

"Or, trusting in God's provision, believing all is nailed to the stake, believing "it's no longer I that do it but the sin that dwells in me"?  Not just willfully and carelessly sinning more so "that grace may abound", but still, resting in His grace, and by doing so let Him work His work." Jabcat

All of the above. Jesus, was the Master, He alone, knowing the wiles of the flesh and its easy way to access man to cause him to fall, I reason He knows our every shortcoming, especially the closer we are led by the Holy Spirit, to the mysteries of the Kingdom.

And I like this as well, " Seems there's some sort of healthy balance between "things will turn out just right in the end" with "Father still spanks and He requires obedience". " Jabcat

Peace and Love Through Jesus

Good scripture OT, "no condemnation to them in Christ Jesus".  That's one of the scrips (along with "Happy God", "my yoke is easy/burden light") I've been pondering lately.

And then before I read your post Shawn (and I see several things the same way) I just went and found the following from Hebrews 12 -

4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,
   "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
   and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
   and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son."[a]

7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness.

Hmm...yes micah, how it all fits together - the discipline/failing(sin),  and then grace/rest, often eludes me.  I have some view of balance, but tend to swing one way or the other.   So I struggle, I confess, then I trust/rest for a little while.  I realize there's sin in me, I confess, then I struggle, then I trust/rest for a little while.....

We all have to come to the end of ourselves....the sin has to end in death.Just "managing the problem won't be beneficial,we must see it for what it is.
I beleive our Father is allowing us to see and experience the futility of our sin,and in doing so see that it has no hold on us,and really be free of it.
To long we have been religously managing our sin.Sin is sin,God is not shocked,he just wants us to mature in Him
blessings :icon_king:

Quote from: onlytruth on January 08, 2011, 02:52:53 AM
We all have to come to the end of ourselves....the sin has to end in death.Just "managing the problem won't be beneficial,we must see it for what it is.
I beleive our Father is allowing us to see and experience the futility of our sin,and in doing so see that it has no hold on us,and really be free of it.
To long we have been religously managing our sin.Sin is sin,God is not shocked,he just wants us to mature in Him
blessings :icon_king:

Well said. Well said! The words you wrote, as I read them are quite powerful, with great understanding. I  agree with you, prayer for me my friend as Im sure you do for all the brethern. Good and sound words. :bigGrin: :thumbsup:

Quote from: jabcat on January 08, 2011, 01:43:07 AM
So do you see any struggle at all for us Taf?  One thing I thought of then forgot to mention was, Paul saying he crucified his flesh and died daily.  Do you understand that as him simply looking to and trusting God rather than him making some sort of "effort" to battle any evil thoughts or attitudes, etc.?  He said he did what he didn't want to do, and didn't do what he wanted to do, almost as if he accepted that's the way it was UNTIL he was fully delivered by Christ Jesus.  Again, God's work not his at all?  Because as you say, any actions by the flesh are useless - even if done against unruly flesh!     Simply done by trusting and believing?   

:icon_flower:

The Body of sin Perished in the Natural Realm-  - it has NO place withinin the spirit- Light and Darkness dont MIX-
it seems when we SLEEP to the spirit we give birth to Sin , in a realm we No longer dwell
Rom 13:11  And that, knowing the time, that now [it is] high time to awake out of sleep: for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed. 


Rom 13:12   The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


as for Pauls words - to Die daily to the SELF -a continuation of Dwelling in the Spirit - SONS ARE THOSE led by the spirit


Through the scrips theres a Process of growth to A MATURE SON[ Full age] ,   Babe , child ,young man etc as we continue the Race -

Cards back  SOME , Maybe she given to expound this a Little more Jab- or others :icon_flower:

Blessings :icon_flower:

 :cloud9: For me the key was learning to discern the origin of thoughts. Once I had the Word in me, and knew the NATURE of the Word thru the washing of it, it made it much easier to discern where they were coming from and so take the appropriate action, which for me, coming out of a deliverance mindset, is to do battle in the heavenlies thru the warfare of the Spirit against the principalities and powers of the air (spirits).

So, in practical application, if a thought comes at me that I recognize is not my thought (on the outside of me), or IS "my" thought (on the inside of me), the warfare takes on a different slant in each instance.

In the former, I command whatever it is away from me, and come back at it with the Word that applies to the situation. If I think it's something that is in my flesh either thru birth, right of generational curses, or willfull disobedience, then I'm praying, repenting of any agreement with it (whether aware of it or not), and asking for understanding on HOW this spirit "works", thus how it gained access in the first place, which will help me tailor my warfare response to the situation.

You don't always get IMMEDIATE deliverance from it, particularly if it's established a stronghold in you (something that has either been there so long or is so ingrained in you, you MISTAKENLY think it's part of your "personality"), but if you "chip" away at it everytime it manifests, you will eventually weaken it's hold on you to where deliverance is forthcoming.

Then you have to learn how to KEEP your deliverance from it, which is a whole another topic. NOT learning how to keep it, is why people get healed from something only to have it come back on them, because the spiritual root was not dealt with. There is bud, bloom and FRUIT, in any situation. We that are in these flesh bodies when we are primarily focused on the flesh, only perceive the FRUIT, usually, and then it's a lot harder to deal with.

We are given the "promised land", but to be able to live in it in fullness, we have to destroy the giants in it THAT WERE THERE BEFORE WE ARRIVED. My  :2c: Blessings.....

Quote from: jabcat on January 08, 2011, 02:15:28 AM
Good scripture OT, "no condemnation to them in Christ Jesus".  That's one of the scrips (along with "Happy God", "my yoke is easy/burden light") I've been pondering lately.

And then before I read your post Shawn (and I see several things the same way) I just went and found the following from Hebrews 12 -

4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,
   "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
   and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
   and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son."[a]

7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness.

Hmm...yes micah, how it all fits together - the discipline/failing(sin),  and then grace/rest, often eludes me.  I have some view of balance, but tend to swing one way or the other.   So I struggle, I confess, then I trust/rest for a little while.  I realize there's sin in me, I confess, then I struggle, then I trust/rest for a little while.....

It's amazing how things work in the spiritual realm.  I have wanted to put up a post about this same thing lately.  I'm not sure what held me back from doing so.  I suppose I have old fears of being judged.  Then you put up this post.  You are saying the same things I am feeling in my spirit.  You are struggling with the same things.

I recently allowed my peace and walk to be disturbed by my own sin.  It was the kind of sin I have struggled with on some plane, in some fashion for most of my life.  I grew discouraged.  I have grown discouraged by my lack of faith as well...allowing anxieties to consume me.  It's very easy for me to go to a dark depressive place with these thoughts.

I read onlytruth's posts.  I instantly wanted to debate.  I started posts and then stopped.  I had nothing to write.  After reading his second post God gave me a dear gift of encouragment.  He showed me a glimpse of myself in the future.  He showed me what he is molding me into and I gained tremendous peace.  He showed me a man beyond offense.  I had recently been wounded by a family member.  He showed me a day when my offensive response would be a loving response.  He showed me a man unable to be wounded or disturbed.  He showed me a man with unshakeable faith even in the mist of significant trials.  He showed me a life of peace and rest beyond circumstances.

I now believe even my sin has it's purpose.  In that knowledge, and the vision of what the Lord is forming me into, I found some peace with my own struggles.  This is only for a season.  Don't be discouraged.  God disciplines those he loves.  He is maturing us to a place that I think few can envision.

Quote from: Cardinal on January 08, 2011, 06:32:27 PM
:cloud9: For me the key was learning to discern the origin of thoughts. Once I had the Word in me, and knew the NATURE of the Word thru the washing of it, it made it much easier to discern where they were coming from and so take the appropriate action, which for me, coming out of a deliverance mindset, is to do battle in the heavenlies thru the warfare of the Spirit against the principalities and powers of the air (spirits).

So, in practical application, if a thought comes at me that I recognize is not my thought (on the outside of me), or IS "my" thought (on the inside of me), the warfare takes on a different slant in each instance.

In the former, I command whatever it is away from me, and come back at it with the Word that applies to the situation. If I think it's something that is in my flesh either thru birth, right of generational curses, or willfull disobedience, then I'm praying, repenting of any agreement with it (whether aware of it or not), and asking for understanding on HOW this spirit "works", thus how it gained access in the first place, which will help me tailor my warfare response to the situation.

You don't always get IMMEDIATE deliverance from it, particularly if it's established a stronghold in you (something that has either been there so long or is so ingrained in you, you MISTAKENLY think it's part of your "personality"), but if you "chip" away at it everytime it manifests, you will eventually weaken it's hold on you to where deliverance is forthcoming.

Then you have to learn how to KEEP your deliverance from it, which is a whole another topic. NOT learning how to keep it, is why people get healed from something only to have it come back on them, because the spiritual root was not dealt with. There is bud, bloom and FRUIT, in any situation. We that are in these flesh bodies when we are primarily focused on the flesh, only perceive the FRUIT, usually, and then it's a lot harder to deal with.

We are given the "promised land", but to be able to live in it in fullness, we have to destroy the giants in it THAT WERE THERE BEFORE WE ARRIVED. My  :2c: Blessings.....

I would be very interested in your thoughts on this particular section...maybe in a seperate thread.

Then you have to learn how to KEEP your deliverance from it, which is a whole another topic. NOT learning how to keep it, is why people get healed from something only to have it come back on them, because the spiritual root was not dealt with. There is bud, bloom and FRUIT, in any situation. We that are in these flesh bodies when we are primarily focused on the flesh, only perceive the FRUIT, usually, and then it's a lot harder to deal with.

"You don't always get IMMEDIATE deliverance from it, particularly if it's established a stronghold in you (something that has either been there so long or is so ingrained in you, you MISTAKENLY think it's part of your "personality"), but if you "chip" away at it everytime it manifests, you will eventually weaken it's hold on you to where deliverance is forthcoming." Cardinal

I find this to be very helpful! Thank you Cardinal thank you Jesus. :HeartThrob:

 :cloud9: @ Micah......glad it blessed you :thumbsup: It was initially quite a shock to me in the beginning of my walk to realize some things that I thought were "personality attributes" were really spirits expressing THEIR nature thru me with my unwitting cooperation.......I just HATE IT when that happens  :winkgrin: :mblush:.......

@ Shawn.......what specifically are you wanting me to expand on? Start the thread and I'll follow..... :icon_flower:

QuoteIt was initially quite a shock to me in beginning of my walk to realize some things that I thought were "personality attributes" were really spirits expressing THEIR nature thru me with my unwitting cooperation.......I just HATE IT when that happens 

:icon_flower:

Quote from: Cardinal on January 09, 2011, 05:06:18 AM
:cloud9: @ Micah......glad it blessed you :thumbsup: It was initially quite a shock to me in the beginning of my walk to realize some things that I thought were "personality attributes" were really spirits expressing THEIR nature thru me with my unwitting cooperation.......I just HATE IT when that happens  :winkgrin: :mblush:.......

@ Shawn.......what specifically are you wanting me to expand on? Start the thread and I'll follow..... :icon_flower:

I was speaking specifically about how to keep your deliverance from something that once bound you.

For me it's not just putting all the blame on an evil spirit and claiming victory . . .I think when there's a change of inward alignment in us that frees us from whatever the bondage was, the "keeping it off" has to do with changing habits that allowed the problem to take root in us in the first place.  If it's alchohol, stay away from bars . . . that's an elementary explanation I know, but the principle stays pretty much the same on any of the bondages we get freed from.

Filling our minds with heavenly thoughts for me is the biggest step to walking totally out of the issues that plague us.  Pursuing Christ redirects our head from going down the dark alleys we have no business being in.  As a man "thinks" . . .  I don't think the problems come on us by a blind-sided attack . . .I think there were some doors we opened somewhere in our lives that allowed the unwelcome things to come in . . .so once we're flushed out, our lifestyle of thinking should be encouraged to change direction with it's processes as well.

Yes it does sound as if we deal with some of the same things Shawn.  Reminds me of "nothing has come on us that's uncommon to man".  We're all clay.

Quote from: Nathan on January 09, 2011, 06:47:27 AM
For me it's not just putting all the blame on an evil spirit and claiming victory . . .I think when there's a change of inward alignment in us that frees us from whatever the bondage was, the "keeping it off" has to do with changing habits that allowed the problem to take root in us in the first place.  If it's alchohol, stay away from bars . . . that's an elementary explanation I know, but the principle stays pretty much the same on any of the bondages we get freed from.

Sometimes I need to "pluck my eye out".

Quote from: Nathan on January 09, 2011, 06:47:27 AM
Filling our minds with heavenly thoughts for me is the biggest step to walking totally out of the issues that plague us.  Pursuing Christ redirects our head from going down the dark alleys we have no business being in.  As a man "thinks" . . . 

Lately been empowered a little bit to "look to Him" during these times, give Him the burden.   "...casting your cares on Him, because He cares for you".

Just thought of something. Paul said " (Rom. 8:8-9) So they that are in the flesh cannot please God." (Verse 9) but ye are not in the flesh but in the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. 

(Gal. 2:20) "I am crucified with Christ: {which we are} nevertheless I live; YET NOT I, {our flesh is not alive it is dead} BUT CHRIST LIVETH IN ME: and that life which I NOW LIVE IN THE FLESH I LIVE BY THE FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD". 

(2Cor. 5:16) Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh:

Paul also said, "hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:6).

(Col. 3:2) Set your affection {mind} on things above, not on things on the earth.

All of these verses tell me that since it is God that works in us both to will and to do of HIS GOOD PLEASURE. That we are spiritually sitting in the heavenly places already in Christ. That we should think on things above and that we are in the spirit and not in the flesh.  This means to me, that to worry about the flesh is not having faith in Christ that he is in us and is working out all things for his good pleasure.  This is just the way I see this.

CHB

Jab, that is a struggle for me as well.  The proverbial plucking of my eye is something I have to remind myself everyday.  Walking through a world without modesty or shame can be a struggle.  I grow tired of white knuckling through temptation.  But, one thing I believe with all my heart...true deliverance from the temptation is just around the corner.  I have been bound by many things that had deep roots, planted by pain, fear and just the journey of walking in this flesh.  There was a time when I seen no relief in my future and I lost hope.  At that point, God gave me his hand and led me to healing.  It wasn't easy, nor do I consider it something I never have to battle with again.  But, I can say that today I walk in hope and faith.  So, today I believe he will deliver me even from the wandering of my eyes.  What a wonderful Savior we have in Christ Jesus.

Quote from: CHB on January 09, 2011, 04:52:15 PM
Just thought of something. Paul said " (Rom. 8:8-9) So they that are in the flesh cannot please God." (Verse 9) but ye are not in the flesh but in the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. 

(Gal. 2:20) "I am crucified with Christ: {which we are} nevertheless I live; YET NOT I, {our flesh is not alive it is dead} BUT CHRIST LIVETH IN ME: and that life which I NOW LIVE IN THE FLESH I LIVE BY THE FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD". 

(2Cor. 5:16) Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh:

Paul also said, "hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:6).

(Col. 3:2) Set your affection {mind} on things above, not on things on the earth.

All of these verses tell me that since it is God that works in us both to will and to do of HIS GOOD PLEASURE. That we are spiritually sitting in the heavenly places already in Christ. That we should think on things above and that we are in the spirit and not in the flesh.  This means to me, that to worry about the flesh is not having faith in Christ that he is in us and is working out all things for his good pleasure.  This is just the way I see this.

CHB

I can see some benefit to that line of thinking.  With that said, we are to strive to live holy lives pleasing to God.  If we are to total be unconcerned about sin then why all the instruction on Holy living?

 :cloud9: We are told to bring every THOUGHT into captivity to the mind of Christ. Not recognizing the need to take authority over this avenue is, at worst, setting ourselves above the Master, who Himself had to respond with the scriptures when tried as by fire in the wilderness. He went from taking authority over His own vessel, to being given power and authority over the vessels of others. Those that would rule with Him must first rule over their own "kingdoms/gardens".

In a similar illustration, as children we don't have other children to "rule" over, but we must learn how to disipline ourselves. But as adults we have children and we must "rule" over them as part of our responsibility as adults and parents. And so we read, "spare the rod, spoil the child". Unfortunately, in their carnal understanding many mistook this to mean to beat their children into submission, but the rod of authority is/was both a shepherds hook, and a symbol of being the firstfruits/head, ie. GENESIS of something. In the same vein, many heads of ministries beat their sheep into submission to their particular doctrine or doctrines.

An interesting thing is, the patriarchs had rods, in which they carved their generations into, tracing back their lineage all the way to Adam, who traced his all the way back to GOD. Christ, the firstfruits, is OUR ROD OF AUTHORITY, and we are to "wield" that "upright (righteousness) staff" both as a shepherd in tending/caring for the flock, and in the corrective aspect of a LOVING parent.

So when we RAISE our rod of authority, the spirits see our lineage as going back to GOD also. The resurrection while still in the body, is as the raising of the rod of authority, no different than when Moses raised his rod and the waters (of judgment to the flesh) rolled all the way back to the city (multiple habitations) of ADAM. This is what Romans 8 the manifestation of the sons of God, IS. No longer Christ in us the HOPE of glory ONLY, but the actual glory being manifested. Christ IS, the glory of God.

The HELMET of salvation is the first article of our armor for a reason. The "womb-man" will recreate whatever seed is planted into it, giving birth to "giants" (exalted themselves above the mind of Christ). So the first "battleground" is the mind, where the seeds are planted. These seeds come in as thoughts, they are the unclean birds that seek to make a nest so they can procreate.

As I said before, some thoughts originate inside our flesh, some outside. The "method" for carrying out the judgments of the law, is a spirit. Jesus said not one jot or tittle would fall away, and indeed it doesn't, BUT in us it is accomplished spiritually. Read Deut. 28 if you are unfamiliar with the judgments and the blessings decreed by God. Then look to your own family to see if the judgments have not been carried out down thru the generations, and are not still being carried out. These are generational curses at work, and the reason you see particular things running thru the generations. Science and medicine say they are "genetic predispositions", but they are only looking at the fruit, not the root. The root is spiritual, a spirit has the capacity to change our physical make-up and eventually our DNA.

One of the errors in separating us from Israel leads to missing the fact that we are spiritually speaking, spiritual Israel. Everything that they went thru was for our example, because we are to inherit the promises that were made to THEM! They "carried" us as a woman with child. As in the wilderness, the children were the only ones to enter into the promised land, and so we are told that we must enter in as a small child.

I'm going to finish this in another post; the program is jolting my screen again :(

:cloud9: Ok, so how do we overcome? Again, it depends on whether outside the body or inside the body. Also understand that there is nothing outside the body that can tempt you if it is not FIRST inside the body. THIS is why it says let no man say when he is tempted, that God tempted him (as if the temptation was from WITHOUT) but rather he was led away of his OWN lusts. And so it's NOT because He does not allow the tempting/testing (think of Job), but because if we fail it's because it was already IN US to begin with. That's why Jesus said the prince of this world cometh, BUT HE HATH NOTHING IN ME.

Until we can say the same, when the princes/principalities of the air/spirit, come, and they many times find something in us they can stand on. And then the battle begins. If we entertain the thought the spirit brings to the door (sin crouching at the door, as a lion crouches) of our heart, and open our door/heart to it, it comes in and makes our condition worse/more weak in that area than it was before.

Let me just say up front, that there is NO SHAME in admitting these things happen. Now this may come as a shock to some, but ALL SIN IS COMMON TO MAN, means we were all made from the same serpent's meat (dust) and all have the same spirits to begin with. This is what we were lowered into to overcome, to grow strong and mature from, just as a muscle grows bigger and stronger from resistance.

The ONLY DIFFERENCE between us and a literal murderer is that, that person gave life to what was in their heart and we didn't. HOWEVER; that the SPIRIT is still there, is why He said if you hate your brother IN YOUR HEART, then you have murdered him.

This is why He rebuked the Pharisees, telling them to clean the INSIDE OF THE CUP, not just the outside. Deliverance, then, is cleaning the INSIDE of the "cup". We, our hearts, are the cup or vessel HE drinks from. Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. Christ is in the "hell" of all, ie. their unclean cups/hearts, waiting for a drink of cool living water from one who has overcome in whatever area they are struggling with. Do we have a drink for Him? Or do we expect Him to drink of a bitter (unclean) fountain?

An old friend of mine went to an conference once of 5000 pastor's from all over the country, of her denomination. He gave her a vision of HIM in all 5000 of them, BOUND, saying, "SET ME FREE!" She had been resisting leaving her denomination; that took care of that.

But He is not just bound by denominational walls men have erected to separate His body within man, He is bound by all the things we do not overcome. He wants to manifest Himself FULLY thru the body He died for. We are not just overcoming for ourselves, we are overcoming for HIM, and for ALL, including our generations.

Now the nuts and bolts. Do you hear His voice yet? If He can speak to you in your seeking, He can tell you what spirit it is you are battling. It's not necessary for removal that you name it, but it DOES aid in understanding what it is and HOW it operates. They are "sneaky"; they will find any avenue to express their nature thru you.

For example, most people think of lust as being a sexual sin only, but His definition of lust is DESIRING ANYTHING apart from His perfect will for the individual in whatever situation is being presented. Start praying and asking Him for His perfect will to be done in you.

Train yourself to become aware of every thought and measure it against what the Word says, or against what a particular revelation to you has been previously (of the Word). Resist the devil and he will flee, comes in here. If you continue to be diligent in this, eventually you will lose your appeal to that spirit, because it already has tried you so many times before without success, and following that, the Lord will deliver you of whatever remnant in that area of your heart/soul may remain.

I will add here before anyone raises that flag, that the abuses of deliverance in many ministries were a result of "getting ahead" of the Lord and just indiscriminately casting out anything they thought they saw. Sometimes they hit on one, and the spirits ARE subject to us in His name, but the ministers failed to listen to the LORD on WHEN to remove it, and so the person had not overcome it yet, and subsequently fell "7 times worse". The ministers will bear their own judgment over that, no need to condemn them.

I'll use myself as an example. I had a serious back injury when young; had 4 vertebraes out of place, ruptured discs, partial paralysis on one leg. After I came to the Lord NO ONE PRAYED FOR ME, I didn't ask for prayer, BUT, I got healed one night. I asked Him how this could happen since no one prayed, I didn't ask (thought I was unworthy), and He told me I had overcome the darkness (read spirits here) that had brought the injury to me.

He then showed me in the Word, how He had told the Israelites to seperate themselves from idolators like the Egyptians and Chaldeans, but when it was time to BUILD THE TEMPLE, He instructed them to BRING IN these groups as workers. When their particular job to do in the temple was finished, THEY LEFT WITHOUT BEING TOLD, and the priests (read Christ here) cleansed the temple and the glory of the Lord came in. So by the same principle, when the "workmen's" work was finished IN MY TEMPLE, they left.

He didn't name them, and to this day I have no idea what their name/nature was, but I know they must have had something to do with righteousness (uprightness), and probably rebellion (neck). They have never come back, and I was so healed the mylogram couldn't even find the scar tissue where the injuries WERE. When God does it, He does it right, LOL. I hope this helps someone.......Blessings.....

Quote from: Cardinal on January 09, 2011, 07:17:01 PM
:cloud9: We are told to bring every THOUGHT into captivity to the mind of Christ. Not recognizing the need to take authority over this avenue is, at worst, setting ourselves above the Master, who Himself had to respond with the scriptures when tried as by fire in the wilderness. He went from taking authority over His own vessel, to being given power and authority over the vessels of others. Those that would rule with Him must first rule over their own "kingdoms/gardens".

In a similar illustration, as children we don't have other children to "rule" over, but we must learn how to disipline ourselves. But as adults we have children and we must "rule" over them as part of our responsibility as adults and parents. And so we read, "spare the rod, spoil the child". Unfortunately, in their carnal understanding many mistook this to mean to beat their children into submission, but the rod of authority is/was both a shepherds hook, and a symbol of being the firstfruits/head, ie. GENESIS of something. In the same vein, many heads of ministries beat their sheep into submission to their particular doctrine or doctrines.

An interesting thing is, the patriarchs had rods, in which they carved their generations into, tracing back their lineage all the way to Adam, who traced his all the way back to GOD. Christ, the firstfruits, is OUR ROD OF AUTHORITY, and we are to "wield" that "upright (righteousness) staff" both as a shepherd in tending/caring for the flock, and in the corrective aspect of a LOVING parent.

So when we RAISE our rod of authority, the spirits see our lineage as going back to GOD also. The resurrection while still in the body, is as the raising of the rod of authority, no different than when Moses raised his rod and the waters (of judgment to the flesh) rolled all the way back to the city (multiple habitations) of ADAM. This is what Romans 8 the manifestation of the sons of God, IS. No longer Christ in us the HOPE of glory ONLY, but the actual glory being manifested. Christ IS, the glory of God.

The HELMET of salvation is the first article of our armor for a reason. The "womb-man" will recreate whatever seed is planted into it, giving birth to "giants" (exalted themselves above the mind of Christ). So the first "battleground" is the mind, where the seeds are planted. These seeds come in as thoughts, they are the unclean birds that seek to make a nest so they can procreate.

As I said before, some thoughts originate inside our flesh, some outside. The "method" for carrying out the judgments of the law, is a spirit. Jesus said not one jot or tittle would fall away, and indeed it doesn't, BUT in us it is accomplished spiritually. Read Deut. 28 if you are unfamiliar with the judgments and the blessings decreed by God. Then look to your own family to see if the judgments have not been carried out down thru the generations, and are not still being carried out. These are generational curses at work, and the reason you see particular things running thru the generations. Science and medicine say they are "genetic predispositions", but they are only looking at the fruit, not the root. The root is spiritual, a spirit has the capacity to change our physical make-up and eventually our DNA.

One of the errors in separating us from Israel leads to missing the fact that we are spiritually speaking, spiritual Israel. Everything that they went thru was for our example, because we are to inherit the promises that were made to THEM! They "carried" us as a woman with child. As in the wilderness, the children were the only ones to enter into the promised land, and so we are told that we must enter in as a small child.

I'm going to finish this in another post; the program is jolting my screen again :(

Amen!

This section especially is spot on.

As I said before, some thoughts originate inside our flesh, some outside. The "method" for carrying out the judgments of the law, is a spirit. Jesus said not one jot or tittle would fall away, and indeed it doesn't, BUT in us it is accomplished spiritually. Read Deut. 28 if you are unfamiliar with the judgments and the blessings decreed by God. Then look to your own family to see if the judgments have not been carried out down thru the generations, and are not still being carried out. These are generational curses at work, and the reason you see particular things running thru the generations. Science and medicine say they are "genetic predispositions", but they are only looking at the fruit, not the root. The root is spiritual, a spirit has the capacity to change our physical make-up and eventually our DNA.

And yet, many attempt to cure addiction, anxiety and depression with pills.  The root is a spiritual sickness.  Heal the spirit, heal the person.

 :cloud9: Exactly......man tries to fix things from the outside in, God fixes things from the inside out, and He's the only one who can do it.....

Quote from: Cardinal on January 09, 2011, 08:14:52 PM
:cloud9: Ok, so how do we overcome? Again, it depends on whether outside the body or inside the body. Also understand that there is nothing outside the body that can tempt you if it is not FIRST inside the body. THIS is why it says let no man say when he is tempted, that God tempted him (as if the temptation was from WITHOUT); NOT because He does not allow the tempting/testing (think of Job), but because if we fail it's because it was already IN US to begin with. That's why Jesus said the prince of this world cometh, BUT HE HATH NOTHING IN ME.

Until we can say the same, when the princes/principalities of the air/spirit, come, and they many times find something in us they can stand on. And then the battle begins. If we entertain the thought the spirit brings to the door (sin crouching at the door, as a lion crouches) of our heart, and open our door/heart to it, it comes in and makes our condition worse/more weak in that area than it was before.

Let me just say up front, that there is NO SHAME in admitting these things happen. Now this may come as a shock to some, but ALL SIN IS COMMON TO MAN, means we were all made from the same serpent's meat (dust) and all have the same spirits to begin with. This is what we were lowered into to overcome, to grow strong and mature from, just as a muscle grows bigger and stronger from resistance. The ONLY DIFFERENCE between us and a literal murderer is that, that person gave life to what was in their heart and we didn't. HOWEVER; that the SPIRIT is still there, is why He said if you hate your brother IN YOUR HEART, then you have murdered him.

This is why He rebuked the Pharisees, telling them to clean the INSIDE OF THE CUP, not just the outside. Deliverance, then, is cleaning the INSIDE of the "cup". We, our hearts, are the cup or vessel HE drinks from. Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. Christ is in the "hell" of all, ie. their unclean cups/hearts, waiting for a drink of cool living water from one who has overcome in whatever area they are struggling with. Do we have a drink for Him? Or do we expect Him to drink of a bitter (unclean) fountain?

An old friend of mine went to an conference once of 5000 pastor's from all over the country, of her denomination. He gave her a vision of HIM in all 5000 of them, BOUND, saying, "SET ME FREE!" She had been resisting leaving her denomination; that took care of that.

But He is not just bound by denominational walls men have erected to separate His body within man, He is bound by all the things we do not overcome. He wants to manifest Himself FULLY thru the body He died for. We are not just overcoming for ourselves, we are overcoming for HIM, and for ALL, including our generations.

Now the nuts and bolts. Do you hear His voice yet? If He can speak to you in your seeking, He can tell you what spirit it is you are battling. It's not necessary for removal that you name it, but it DOES aid in understanding what it is and HOW it operates. They are "sneaky"; they will find any avenue to express their nature thru you. Most people think of lust as being a sexual sin only, but His definition of lust is DESIRING ANYTHING apart from His perfect will for the individual in whatever situation is being presented. Start praying and asking Him for His perfect will to be done in you.

Train yourself to become aware of every thought and measure it against what the Word says, or against what a particular revelation to you has been previously (of the Word). Resist the devil and he will flee, comes in here. If you continue to be diligent in this, eventually you will lose your appeal to that spirit, because it already has tried you so many times before without success, and following that, the Lord will deliver you of whatever remnant in that area of your heart/soul may remain.

I will add here before anyone raises that flag, that the abuses of deliverance in many ministries were a result of "getting ahead" of the Lord and just indiscriminately casting out anything they thought they saw. Sometimes they hit on one, and the spirits ARE subject to us in His name, but the ministers failed to listen to the LORD on WHEN to remove it, and so the person had not overcome it yet, and subsequently fell "7 times worse". The ministers will bear their own judgment over that, no need to condemn them.

I'll use myself as an example. I had a serious back injury when young; had 4 vertebraes out of place, ruptured discs, partial paralysis on one leg. After I came to the Lord NO ONE PRAYED FOR ME, I didn't ask for prayer, BUT, I got healed one night. I asked Him how this could happen since no one prayed, I didn't ask (thought I was unworthy), and He told me I had overcome the darkness (read spirits here) that had brought the injury to me.

He then showed me in the Word, how He had told the Israelites to seperate themselves from idolators like the Egyptians and Chaldeans, but when it was time to BUILD THE TEMPLE, He instructed them to BRING IN these groups as workers. When their particular job to do in the temple was finished, THEY LEFT WITHOUT BEING TOLD, and the priests (read Christ here) cleansed the temple and the glory of the Lord came in. So by the same principle, when the "workmen's" work was finished IN MY TEMPLE, they left.

He didn't name them, and to this day I have no idea what their name/nature was, but I know they must have had something to do with righteousness (uprightness), and probably rebellion (neck). They have never come back, and I was so healed the mylogram couldn't even find the scar tissue where the injuries WERE. When God does it, He does it right, LOL. I hope this helps someone.......Blessings.....

I am being fed today.  Thank you for that Cardinal.

 :cloud9: You're most welcome, but thank Him, for it was by Him and thru Him that I overcame anything, to have anything TO share.

I also want to add as a means of showing you how "sneaky" they are.......One year after I KNEW I was healed, the tests they ran on me confirmed it, I suddenly had the same near crippling pain in my back one day. I TOOK THE THOUGHT, that "maybe I did something to it, lifted something wrong, ect." and by that was opening myself up to it again, unwittingly.

Just then, the Lord spoke to me, "This is a LYING SYMPTOM, cast it out." I got MAD, and stomped my foot (impossible nearly with back pain like that), and commanded that thing off me and loosed it into the fire of the living God. It has never tried to return and that was over 20 years ago now, praise be to Him. Blessings.....

PS. Anyone that tries to tell you God doesn't do deliverance has not read Genesis 1 where God separated the light FROM the DARKNESS.

Quote from: Cardinal on January 09, 2011, 09:39:48 PM
:cloud9: You're most welcome, but thank Him, for it was by Him and thru Him that I overcame anything, to have anything TO share.

I also want to add as a means of showing you how "sneaky" they are.......One year after I KNEW I was healed, the tests they ran on me confirmed it, I suddenly had the same near crippling pain in my back one day. I TOOK THE THOUGHT, that "maybe I did something to it, lifted something wrong, ect." and by that was opening myself up to it again, unwittingly.

Just then, the Lord spoke to me, "This is a LYING SYMPTOM, cast it out." I got MAD, and stomped my foot (impossible nearly with back pain like that), and commanded that thing off me and loosed it into the fire of the living God. It has never tried to return and that was over 20 years ago now, praise be to Him. Blessings.....

PS. Anyone that tries to tell you God doesn't do deliverance has not read Genesis 1 where God separated the light FROM the DARKNESS.

That is an awesome story of deliverance.  Thank you and thank God!

Quote from: Cardinal on January 09, 2011, 09:17:08 PM
:cloud9: Exactly......man tries to fix things from the outside in, God fixes things from the inside out, and He's the only one who can do it.....

If God is the only one who can do it... fix things from the inside out, why should we struggle to fix things ourselves?

If we are in Christ and it is God who works in us to will and to do of his good pleasure, why do we try to improve on the works that God is doing. Can't he do a much better job than us? If we are sitting in the heavenlies in Christ, we are dead to sin. If we are dead how can we work?

I guess I just feel that my life is in his hands and however things are, is because that is the way he wants it to be. I don't worry about whether I am doing something God isn't pleased with, because he's got the reigns in his hands. There is nothing I can do on my own as far as becoming more righteous. I can't make myself perfect, or righteous, that is his job. Like Paul said "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling but in the very next verse he tells how that is done. "For it is God that works in us to will and to do of his good pleasure". 

If I question my self as to whether I am living and doing all the right things concerning the flesh, Isn't that questioning God? Isn't that not having the faith that Christ took care of all sin and why should we even be concerned about the flesh? Aren't we suppose to be living in the Spirit and not the flesh? How can we do that if our mind is always on our flesh, and what the flesh accomplishes?  Isn't the flesh all about the law anyway, and the spirit about grace?  These are the things I ask myself.

CHB

Quote from: CHB on January 09, 2011, 10:05:07 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on January 09, 2011, 09:17:08 PM
:cloud9: Exactly......man tries to fix things from the outside in, God fixes things from the inside out, and He's the only one who can do it.....

If God is the only one who can do it... fix things from the inside out, why should we struggle to fix things ourselves?

If we are in Christ and it is God who works in us to will and to do of his good pleasure, why do we try to improve on the works that God is doing. Can't he do a much better job than us? If we are sitting in the heavenlies in Christ, we are dead to sin. If we are dead how can we work?

I guess I just feel that my life is in his hands and however things are, is because that is the way he wants it to be. I don't worry about whether I am doing something God isn't pleased with, because he's got the reigns in his hands. There is nothing I can do on my own as far as becoming more righteous. I can't make myself perfect, or righteous, that is his job. Like Paul said "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling but in the very next verse he tells how that is done. "For it is God that works in us to will and to do of his good pleasure". 

If I question my self as to whether I am living and doing all the right things concerning the flesh, Isn't that questioning God? Isn't that not having the faith that Christ took care of all sin and why should we even be concerned about the flesh? Aren't we suppose to be living in the Spirit and not the flesh? How can we do that if our mind is always on our flesh, and what the flesh accomplishes?  Isn't the flesh all about the law anyway, and the spirit about grace?  These are the things I ask myself.

CHB

I don't have all answers - maybe just a few pieces here and there.  But I think they are beautiful (and helpful) questions as I seek either a balance, or a total "giving over" to Him.  In process.   Thanks.  :)

Quote from: CHB on January 09, 2011, 10:05:07 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on January 09, 2011, 09:17:08 PM
:cloud9: Exactly......man tries to fix things from the outside in, God fixes things from the inside out, and He's the only one who can do it.....

If God is the only one who can do it... fix things from the inside out, why should we struggle to fix things ourselves?

If we are in Christ and it is God who works in us to will and to do of his good pleasure, why do we try to improve on the works that God is doing. Can't he do a much better job than us? If we are sitting in the heavenlies in Christ, we are dead to sin. If we are dead how can we work?

I guess I just feel that my life is in his hands and however things are, is because that is the way he wants it to be. I don't worry about whether I am doing something God isn't pleased with, because he's got the reigns in his hands. There is nothing I can do on my own as far as becoming more righteous. I can't make myself perfect, or righteous, that is his job. Like Paul said "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling but in the very next verse he tells how that is done. "For it is God that works in us to will and to do of his good pleasure". 

If I question my self as to whether I am living and doing all the right things concerning the flesh, Isn't that questioning God? Isn't that not having the faith that Christ took care of all sin and why should we even be concerned about the flesh? Aren't we suppose to be living in the Spirit and not the flesh? How can we do that if our mind is always on our flesh, and what the flesh accomplishes?  Isn't the flesh all about the law anyway, and the spirit about grace?  These are the things I ask myself.

CHB

:cloud9: If you're dead, who is it then that does any works thru you?

Faith without works is dead, and works without faith is dead. Let me reword that a little for clarity. Faith (apart from the Spirit-given faith) without works (apart from the Spirit, ie. the HG does the works) is dead (or produces death) and works (apart from the Spirit, ie. the HG does the works) without faith (apart from the Spirit-given faith) is dead (produces death).

It all begins and ends with Him. The struggle is from trying to do things in our flesh, ie. out of season, out of order, not according to pattern, INDEPENDENT of the working of the Spirit in us and thru us. What does the pattern of the Tabernacle show us, is where I begin.

The priests had to trim the wicks daily or else the place would smoke up and visibility was nil. This speaks of circumcising our hearts so that we can perceive more of Him, and therefore receive, more of Him, since we have to "see" Him to be changed to be as He is, from glory (terrestrial/fleshly) to glory (celestial/spiritual).

Putting the animal (carnal beastly natures) to death for sins was another repeat pattern given to us to show the necessity of making of ourselves a living sacrifice. The people who brought the animal laid their hands on it with the idea of transferrence of sins to the animal; Himself bore our sins.

The High Priest's offering took away the sins of the people once a year, but during that year they were STILL expected to bring forth the animals for their sins. Our High Priest took away the power of sin offering a permanent cleansing from it, BUT we are still expected to appropriate it by COOPERATING with the HG who DOES the works. If it were all done, then death the last enemy would be defeated, yet look around us, death still reigns from Adam to Moses because we are still under the law and it's effects SPIRITUALLY until it is all accomplished in us and thru us BY THE SPIRIT.

This is why He said today and tomorrow (2000 years) I will DO CURES AND CAST OUT DEVILS, but the third day, I will be perfected (completed). Who does the works? HE does. Do we have to do our part in cooperation by pressing in gaining wisdom and knowledge, growing to maturity, and that including appropriating deliverance? YES. Under the law if a man did not work, he did not eat.

The churches are full of people that are starving to death, because they've been taught by the Jezebel spirit that rules over them, not to work, living lives of "leisure" letting another man get their bread for them, which is against the commandment given for every man to get gather his own manna for his house, and TWICE that amount on the 6th day (which is NOW).

Herein lies the main problem, and that is that the churches taught that the law is not in effect because we are under grace, BUT Jesus said that not one jot or tittle would pass away till all be fulfilled. It has to be fulfilled in us spiritually, else God is a liar. Passover, was part of the law. Pentecost, was part of the law.

Do we "observe" these feasts spiritually, or no? Yes, we do, so then all the law means something to us spiritually, because you can't take one part of the law, or you're a debtor to the whole law. Well, He "set us up" because from the beginning of the NT covenant, He made us a debtor to the law, BUT the difference is that now we have a SPIRITUAL High Priest and a spiritually mediated and ENFORCED, covenant. The Spirit IS grace, grace is not something separate that excludes the law, it FULFILLS it. My  :2c: Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on January 09, 2011, 11:10:11 PM

Quote from: CHB on January 09, 2011, 10:05:07 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on January 09, 2011, 09:17:08 PM
:cloud9: Exactly......man tries to fix things from the outside in, God fixes things from the inside out, and He's the only one who can do it.....

If God is the only one who can do it... fix things from the inside out, why should we struggle to fix things ourselves?

If we are in Christ and it is God who works in us to will and to do of his good pleasure, why do we try to improve on the works that God is doing. Can't he do a much better job than us? If we are sitting in the heavenlies in Christ, we are dead to sin. If we are dead how can we work?

I guess I just feel that my life is in his hands and however things are, is because that is the way he wants it to be. I don't worry about whether I am doing something God isn't pleased with, because he's got the reigns in his hands. There is nothing I can do on my own as far as becoming more righteous. I can't make myself perfect, or righteous, that is his job. Like Paul said "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling but in the very next verse he tells how that is done. "For it is God that works in us to will and to do of his good pleasure". 

If I question my self as to whether I am living and doing all the right things concerning the flesh, Isn't that questioning God? Isn't that not having the faith that Christ took care of all sin and why should we even be concerned about the flesh? Aren't we suppose to be living in the Spirit and not the flesh? How can we do that if our mind is always on our flesh, and what the flesh accomplishes?  Isn't the flesh all about the law anyway, and the spirit about grace?  These are the things I ask myself.CHB

{quote author=Cardinal]
:cloud9: If you're dead, who is it then that does any works thru you?

God. When Christ died, I died, when he was resurrected, I was resurrected, he is sitting on the right hand of God and I am sitting IN him there also.  Christ did the works for me. I no longer have any works, it is the works of Christ that are manifested in me.

Quote from: Cardinal
Faith without works is dead, and works without faith is dead. Let me reword that a little for clarity. Faith (apart from the Spirit-given faith) without works (apart from the Spirit, ie. the HG does the works) is dead (or produces death) and works (apart from the Spirit, ie. the HG does the works) without faith (apart from the Spirit-given faith) is dead (produces death).

(Gal. 2:20) I live by the faith of the Son of God. My faith isn't worth diddly squat. (Gal. 9:12) law {or works} is not of faith.

Quote from: Cardinal
It all begins and ends with Him. The struggle is from trying to do things in our flesh, ie. out of season, out of order, not according to pattern, INDEPENDENT of the working of the Spirit in us and thru us. What does the pattern of the Tabernacle show us, is where I begin.

I agree that it begins and ends with him. Struggling to do things in the flesh is just pleasing ourselves and not God.

Quote from: Cardinal
The priests had to trim the wicks daily or else the place would smoke up and visibility was nil. This speaks of circumcising our hearts so that we can perceive more of Him, and therefore receive, more of Him, since we have to "see" Him to be changed to be as He is, from glory (terrestrial/fleshly) to glory (celestial/spiritual).

Putting the animal (carnal beastly natures) to death for sins was another repeat pattern given to us to show the necessity of making of ourselves a living sacrifice. The people who brought the animal laid their hands on it with the idea of transferrence of sins to the animal; Himself bore our sins.

The High Priest's offering took away the sins of the people once a year, but during that year they were STILL expected to bring forth the animals for their sins. Our High Priest took away the power of sin offering a permanent cleansing from it, BUT we are still expected to appropriate it by COOPERATING with the HG who DOES the works. If it were all done, then death the last enemy would be defeated, yet look around us, death still reigns from Adam to Moses because we are still under the law and it's effects SPIRITUALLY until it is all accomplished in us and thru us BY THE SPIRIT.

We have to cooperate before the Holy Spirit can do it's work? Sounds like works to me which I thought we no longer needed.

Quote from: Cardinal
This is why He said today and tomorrow (2000 years) I will DO CURES AND CAST OUT DEVILS, but the third day, I will be perfected (completed). Who does the works? HE does. Do we have to do our part in cooperation by pressing in gaining wisdom and knowledge, growing to maturity, and that including appropriating deliverance? YES. Under the law if a man did not work, he did not eat.

But we are not under the law. This sounds like a mixture of law and grace. I may be misunderstanding you Cardinal. If I am please set me straight.

Quote from: Cardinal
The churches are full of people that are starving to death, because they've been taught by the Jezebel spirit that rules over them, not to work, living lives of "leisure" letting another man get their bread for them, which is against the commandment given for every man to get gather his own manna for his house, and TWICE that amount on the 6th day (which is NOW).

But isn't this even in God's hands? It also says, "The Lord maketh poor, and  maketh rich (1 Sam. 2:7)

Quote from: Cardinal
Herein lies the main problem, and that is that the churches taught that the law is not in effect because we are under grace, BUT Jesus said that not one jot or tittle would pass away till all be fulfilled. It has to be fulfilled in us spiritually, else God is a liar. Passover, was part of the law. Pentecost, was part of the law.

I thought it had to be fulfilled in Christ? We had nothing to do with grace or law. At least that is what I thought?

Quote from: Cardinal
Do we "observe" these feasts spiritually, or no? Yes, we do, so then all the law means something to us spiritually, because you can't take one part of the law, or you're a debtor to the whole law.

This is why I said I don't have any works of my own, any works that I do is Christ working in and through me.

Quote from: Cardinal
Well, He "set us up" because from the beginning of the NT covenant, He made us a debtor to the law, BUT the difference is that now we have a SPIRITUAL High Priest and a spiritually mediated and ENFORCED, covenant. The Spirit IS grace, grace is not something separate that excludes the law, it FULFILLS it. My  :2c: Blessings....

I may be wrong but I don't see grace as being any part of the law. The law kills, Grace makes alive. Completely apart.  I am sorry Cardinal, I amy be misunderstanding what you are saying, I am good at that sometimes.

CHB

 :icon_flower:

So Much LIFE inthe WORD you shared Card -awesome- PTL :icon_flower:

I like the cooperating with the Holy Spirit that cardinal posted. Some christians think that living a godly life means to kill everything in them and let christ take over. But to me this does not make sense, God created us to be indivuduals, there is only one Son of God. If God wanted us to be Jesus christ he would have simply begotten a million Jesus Christs, but I believe that we are all individual parts of the body with christ as our head and our example. I think the devil wants to confuse us so that we as christians are depressed and stripps us of our individuality, by becoming Jesus clones, but I think this is twisted and takes our joy from our adoration of Christ.
:2c:

TT,

I never said nor do I claim to be Christ but if Christ is in me thenm it is no longer I but Christ that works in me. He does the works. Our works are going to be burned up.

I believe we are individuals also and that Christ is the head of the body.

(2Tim. 2:11) It is a faithful saying: for if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him. I believe onlytruth said "we all have to die to self", or something to that effect and that is true. If Christ lives in us then we are dead to sin, we have died to self and Christ reigns in us. Otherwords Christ has complete control of my body. I am in him and he is in me, we are one. Wasn't that what Jesus prayed for?  At least this is the way I see it, maybe I am nuts, I don't know?

CHB

I did not say you were claiming to be Christ, I did not read your post, but now I read it you could possibly one of the people I am talking about, only you know. It is just my own personal opinion on this matter and I find it frustrating when Christians or the devil want to destroy individuality within people by making them die to self etc.

To me Jesus is our creator and created us to be individuals and that dying to self means, to live again as He intended and not to live as a carnal person. I don't know your exact opinion but a lot of christians think dying to self means to deny their personality wants and needs etc, they are killing a part of their being that Jesus created them to be, killing their true self, I see a lot of christians who are subdued and do not have the joy of the lord I think this is one of the reasons. Jesus wants us to kill the carnal self, not the spirit man within who is precious as a priceless pearl that God has named each one of us and knows the number of hairs on our head. I do not know if I am 100% correct on this issue, but when I think like this, as a co creator with Christ I feel alive, powerful and liberated( Jesus came to give life and to have it more abundantly), but when I go back to the typical christian thought of killing everything in me, life is dull, lifeless, weak and boring. (The devil came to kill, thief and destroy)

Quote from: thinktank on January 10, 2011, 02:02:31 AM
I like the cooperating with the Holy Spirit that cardinal posted. Some christians think that living a godly life means to kill everything in them and let christ take over. But to me this does not make sense, God created us to be indivuduals, there is only one Son of God. If God wanted us to be Jesus christ he would have simply begotten a million Jesus Christs, but I believe that we are all individual parts of the body with christ as our head and our example. I think the devil wants to confuse us so that we as christians are depressed and stripps us of our individuality, by becoming Jesus clones, but I think this is twisted and takes our joy from our adoration of Christ.
:2c:

I don't think our carnal nature dying is stripping one of their personality.  It's merely allowing us to be everything we were meant to be in Christ.

Yes Christ wants us to crucify the carnal nature, lust and the pride of life, but he doesn't want us to crucify or kill our inner man, but rather liberate our spirits, some christians crucify their spirit, I know that I have by mistake on many occasions and it has been painfull, but must see past the enemies tricks and not shoot oneself in the foot.

 :cloud9: @ CHB......it's a process and I am describing the process. Again, what He did, we appropriate by cooperation with the HG who does the works. Corinthians tells us what the works are, ie. the gifts of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is what comes out of the processing.

@ TT.......I understand what you mean. The Lord once told me to tell a young woman that, "He was not making cookie cutter Christians."  :laughing7:

 :icon_flower:
The Battle of the flesh being the theme --

Understanding the WAY- [I AM the WAY- The TRUTH and the LIFE]- through the Tabernacle\Temple pattern  incooperates much of this Discussion.

Theres Much to  Glean from the thread started some two yrs - maybe  a perusal will be beneficial :icon_flower:

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/experiencing_tabernacle_4983.0.html

:icon_flower:

Quote from: thinktank on January 10, 2011, 03:09:11 AM
I did not say you were claiming to be Christ, I did not read your post, but now I read it you could possibly one of the people I am talking about, only you know. It is just my own personal opinion on this matter and I find it frustrating when Christians or the devil want to destroy individuality within people by making them die to self etc.

To me Jesus is our creator and created us to be individuals and that dying to self means, to live again as He intended and not to live as a carnal person. I don't know your exact opinion but a lot of christians think dying to self means to deny their personality wants and needs etc, they are killing a part of their being that Jesus created them to be, killing their true self, I see a lot of christians who are subdued and do not have the joy of the lord I think this is one of the reasons. Jesus wants us to kill the carnal self, not the spirit man within who is precious as a priceless pearl that God has named each one of us and knows the number of hairs on our head. I do not know if I am 100% correct on this issue, but when I think like this, as a co creator with Christ I feel alive, powerful and liberated( Jesus came to give life and to have it more abundantly), but when I go back to the typical christian thought of killing everything in me, life is dull, lifeless, weak and boring. (The devil came to kill, thief and destroy)

I liked that, TT.   :thumbsup:

Quote from: Molly on January 10, 2011, 10:13:32 PM

Quote from: thinktank on January 10, 2011, 03:09:11 AM
I did not say you were claiming to be Christ, I did not read your post, but now I read it you could possibly one of the people I am talking about, only you know. It is just my own personal opinion on this matter and I find it frustrating when Christians or the devil want to destroy individuality within people by making them die to self etc.

To me Jesus is our creator and created us to be individuals and that dying to self means, to live again as He intended and not to live as a carnal person. I don't know your exact opinion but a lot of christians think dying to self means to deny their personality wants and needs etc, they are killing a part of their being that Jesus created them to be, killing their true self, I see a lot of christians who are subdued and do not have the joy of the lord I think this is one of the reasons. Jesus wants us to kill the carnal self, not the spirit man within who is precious as a priceless pearl that God has named each one of us and knows the number of hairs on our head. I do not know if I am 100% correct on this issue, but when I think like this, as a co creator with Christ I feel alive, powerful and liberated( Jesus came to give life and to have it more abundantly), but when I go back to the typical christian thought of killing everything in me, life is dull, lifeless, weak and boring. (The devil came to kill, thief and destroy)

I liked that, TT.   :thumbsup:

I like that too TT.  :thumbsup:

I have really loved this thread - thank you all!  :girlheart:

Thank you all, I'm glad my post has been a blessing to you, I was a bit affraid of posting it at first.

But as Ls said above this has been a good thread with some great posts made.

Those that would rule with Him must first rule over their own "kingdoms/gardens".[/color]

Can't quite digest this one Card, sorry . . .but I can't very well rule over my own garden unless I've been empowered by Him in the first place.  Casting my concerns into him is what is asked of me.  The overcoming doesn't come from within my own nature, it can only come through his "in" me.  And once I recognize and act on that, that act alone is evidence that I'm already with and in Him . . .it's all him from A to Z.  I know you see that as well.  But this one sentence kinda messed the rest of it up for me is all. 

It's BECAUSE I rule with him that I can then rule over my own kingdom.  Not by might, not by power . . .

It's not through my own laboring mind, my own strength, discipline, study, actions . . .it's all through him that any of those would manifest through me at all.

Quote from: Nathan on January 12, 2011, 12:54:10 AM
Those that would rule with Him must first rule over their own "kingdoms/gardens".[/color]

Can't quite digest this one Card, sorry . . .but I can't very well rule over my own garden unless I've been empowered by Him in the first place.  Casting my concerns into him is what is asked of me.  The overcoming doesn't come from within my own nature, it can only come through his "in" me.  And once I recognize and act on that, that act alone is evidence that I'm already with and in Him . . .it's all him from A to Z.  I know you see that as well.  But this one sentence kinda messed the rest of it up for me is all. 

It's BECAUSE I rule with him that I can then rule over my own kingdom.  Not by might, not by power . . .

It's not through my own laboring mind, my own strength, discipline, study, actions . . .it's all through him that any of those would manifest through me at all.

Nathan, I see it the same way.

CHB

From THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS by Andrew Jukes:

Such was the fall of man, and it explains why death is needful for our return to God. Death is the only way out of any world in which we are. It was by death to God we fell out of God's world. And it is by death with Christ to sin and to this world that we are delivered in spirit from sin, that is the dark world, and in body from the toil and changes of this outward world. For we are, as Scripture and our own hearts tell us, not only in body in this outward world, but in our spirits are living in a spiritual world, which surely is not heaven, for no soul of man till regenerate is at rest or satisfied; and being thus fallen, the only way out of these worlds is death: so long as we live their life, we must be in them. To get out of them, therefore, we must die: die to this elemental nature, to get out of the seen world, and die to sin, to get out of the dark world, called in Scripture "the power of darkness" (Col. 1:13). And since the life of the one is toil and change, and the life of the other is dissatisfaction and inward restlessness, we must die to both if we would be free from the changes of this world, and from the restlessness and dissatisfaction in which by nature our spirits are. Christ died this double death for us, not only "to sin" (Rom. 6:10), but also "to the elements of this world" (Col. 2:20). And to be free, we also must die with Him to both. Only by such a death are we delivered.

Quote from: shawn on January 10, 2011, 04:57:47 AM

Quote from: thinktank on January 10, 2011, 02:02:31 AM
I like the cooperating with the Holy Spirit that cardinal posted. Some christians think that living a godly life means to kill everything in them and let christ take over. But to me this does not make sense, God created us to be indivuduals, there is only one Son of God. If God wanted us to be Jesus christ he would have simply begotten a million Jesus Christs, but I believe that we are all individual parts of the body with christ as our head and our example. I think the devil wants to confuse us so that we as christians are depressed and stripps us of our individuality, by becoming Jesus clones, but I think this is twisted and takes our joy from our adoration of Christ.
:2c:

I don't think our carnal nature dying is stripping one of their personality.  It's merely allowing us to be everything we were meant to be in Christ.

I just had a conversation with a friend on email today about this very thing.

There's an old, old chorus that I used to sing growing up in church that went "in him we live, and move, and have our being . . ."  It's actually a quote from Scripture.  Singing it was a normal staple for our song services for years.  Like many MANY other hymns and choruses, the meanings of things have changed for me as my perspectives on other things have changed.  This song that gets sung is kind of an oxy moron for those who sang it . . .and for me then as well.

We claim we can move and live and have our being . . .yet that only floats as long as we live under the denominational boundary lines the church establishes and often times, enforces.  In other words, you can only move within the church's perception of who they see he is.  But now, I no longer see God as this monster judge who wathes my every move with disdain and aggrivation sketched across his face as he takes his swats at me as though I'm an annoying gnat.  But instead, my realization of this verse is not just that in him I live and move . . .but most precious to me is, I retain MY being.  I'm not conformed to a disciplinary set of rules, I'm free to retain my personality in him.  Lucky for me . .otherwise I'm totally screwed!!

I think card is saying that we are the ones that decide whether to follow christ or not, and we must rule over our garden .i.e flesh.

The scriptures says

A man is drawn after his own lust and when it is conceived bringeth forth death

Also says "resist the devil and he will flee from you"

If we do nothing, then nothing will happen.

With the heart man believes, but with his mouth confession is made into salvation

Confess your sins etc

Jesus said "follow me" Take up your cross, my burden is light etc

I told Jesus the other day, lord I will not do anything unless you do it.

That day I had a lie in and nothing happened, because we must do something i.e move our legs, God, is more like a catalyst, he empowers us, but he doesn't do all the work for us, otherwise washing the dishes would be a lot more fun/easier  :grin:

I'm not sure yet if we're saying the same thing or not. 

I'm not one to promote doing nothing.  I'm promoting changing the emphasis from worrying about what "we're" doing and pursuing the kingdom . . .seek ye first the kingdom . . .I'm not doing anything, I'm just not putting all my energies in self-discipline.  The things I overcome, I overcome due to my pursuit in heavenly matters.  Jesus stands at the door and knocks . . he's not coming because my house is dirty, the reason he's not coming in is because I'm not opening the door so he can.

Even Paul was concerned about the thorns in the flesh and yet God wasn't.  God was more concerned that Paul would realize his grace in the midst of the thorn infested flesh. 

I don't think God's nearly as concerned with us trying to rid ourselves of the dust of the earth as much as we our.  The freedom I pursue is not freedom to do whatever my flesh desires without guilt or shame.  The freedom I pursue is the freedom to flow in the kingdom beyond the reaches of the fleshly desires in the first place.  My flesh is still affected, it still craves, but the power is no longer in my flesh to have the thorns inflict their pain on me.  Pursing the ascended place takes me through the temptations whether I fall or fly, and into the realm of his presence and unexplainable things that reinstate my awareness of who I/we are in Him through Christ. 

But doing nothing?  Being at rest in Christ doesn't mean I do nothing.  It just means the battle isn't mine to fight anymore.

Nathan, as I was typing this, you took a step towards answering my "dilemma", with your last line.

You said "being at rest in Christ doesn't mean I do nothing.  It just means the battle isn't mine to fight anymore".  I agree with that, I'M JUST NOT ALWAYS SURE WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE AND HOW WE'RE TO WALK IT OUT".

Here's what I had typed.  I'll post it with the above now in play;

I started this thread, had and have several different thoughts rolling around in my head as evidenced by my OP.

Even before, and now that the thread's been going for awhile, seems to me I've heard and/or thought all these different things;

Let go, let God
Cast your cares on Him
Trust
Rest
Give over to Him
Surrender
Submit
It's not I that sin, it's sin in me (Jesus will [fully] one day deliver me), so
Relax


Then there are these;

Commit/re-commit
Press in
Overcome
Hold on tight
Don't give up
Keep the faith
Fight the fight
Rule over your flesh
Crucify your flesh
Don't let go

As I said, I probably do all these things at one time or another, often thinking I need to move more toward the first group.  But still, we hear all these "encouragements".    It reminds me of being a little kid, growing up in those country Pentecostal churches.  You may have someone down at the altar "praying through", with one well-meaning person on each side, coaching in each ear.  One's saying "LET GO!", the other says "HOLD ON!"..."LET GO!", "HOLD ON!", "LET GO!", "HOLD ON!"... 

I'm thinking there must be a place where maybe some of lists above get thrown out, and/or at least, there's a place where they (or what's left) reconcile in our daily walk.   :2c:

The one thing members on Tent can probably all relate to the most above everything else when it comes to being a follower of Christ is . . .there's no conformity by one movement or another.  We are all unique individuals set apart from each other with a common denomonator or two with things pertaining to UR.  I personally came by way of revelation.  Many others came by way of word definition, absolute literalization . . .others were just frustrated with where they were and started looking for something they couldn't identify.  But in the end, we've all arrived  . . .here.

The only answer I can give you that comes to me after reading your post when you ask "what does that look like" . . . is through all the experiences in Scripture, through all of the terrible failures of the people in Scripture, through all of the rhetoric, the hype, the great manifestations . . through all of it . . .those that could truly see were the same that simply laid down their fight, laid down their agendas, their schedules, their expectations of how they think it should be done or said and they simply yielded the thing over to the Lord. 

God had to actually argue with Moses to get him to be a part of the greatest exodus ever to take place on earth.  Abraham marveled, Sarah laughed.  Jonah jumped ship. Thomas doubted, John the Baptist's Dad questioned . . .Mary yielded.  Saul had the zeal but in his zeal, he was putting people in prisons . . .because they didn't see God through his eyes.  But when he became imprisoned himself . . .he worshiped and in his worship he became a free man.

What does it look like?  The closest answer I can come up with is . . .it looks a lot like worship.  In spite of our battles, our jousting, our locking of horns intellectually, when we simply join each other in worship, the rest of it sort of takes care of itself.  The unity of worship is a truly powerful place to enter into.  In Revelation John "heard" the voice calling "come up here and the moment he did, worship was everywhere.

I think you're speaking here from the Spirit.  Thanks.

Quote from: jabcat on January 12, 2011, 02:02:31 AM
I think you're speaking here from the Spirit.  Thanks.

I appreciate your heart . . .it kinda felt like that when my fingers wrote it.  Rereading it makes me emotional . . .what's with that?!!

I'd say it's the Spirit blessing you.  I felt a "flow" as I was reading it.  Good word.

Maybe because you mentioned all those heroes of the faith, it made me a bit emotional too reading it when I remember them all like that and how real they actually are, their trials, pain, suffering and great victories  :bigGrin:
:2c:

I understand and hear you both my brothers, will you hear that just as Moses, Abraham, Jonah, Thomas, Mary, and Saul (Paul) had a moving on.?! I  :sigh: only because I cannot say no more, yet it behoves me to say, " Off your cots and pick up your socks, LETS GO!"

ANGELS COME, GATHER 'ROUND
DANCE WITH US UNTO THE SOUND
OF LOVE, OF LIGHT, OF SAAAABBETH REST
LET THE WORLD NOW ALL BE ONE
GIVE GLORY TO GOD'S HOLY SON
SO ALL WHO HEAR, MAYYYY  BE BLESSED

i WANT TO DANCE . . .I WANT TO DANCE . . . .I WANT TO DANCE.

Quote from: Nathan on January 12, 2011, 12:54:10 AM
Those that would rule with Him must first rule over their own "kingdoms/gardens".[/color]

Can't quite digest this one Card, sorry . . .but I can't very well rule over my own garden unless I've been empowered by Him in the first place.  Casting my concerns into him is what is asked of me.  The overcoming doesn't come from within my own nature, it can only come through his "in" me.  And once I recognize and act on that, that act alone is evidence that I'm already with and in Him . . .it's all him from A to Z.  I know you see that as well.  But this one sentence kinda messed the rest of it up for me is all. 

It's BECAUSE I rule with him that I can then rule over my own kingdom.  Not by might, not by power . . .

It's not through my own laboring mind, my own strength, discipline, study, actions . . .it's all through him that any of those would manifest through me at all.

:cloud9: I know you know all this, but for clarification......I see what you're saying and without realizing I needed to make a distinction I didn't make; I was talking about one dimension of ruling and reigning (and you another). Both are equally true, just different "levels".

My point might be better stated as UNTIL He is all in all IN US (deliverance completed, in other words), we must press in and take dominion over our own "kingdom/garden", which we do in cooperation with the HG.

It's the "Satan can't cast out Satan," principle. Until He can FULLY STAND in us, bound by nothing (we're beheaded essentially like John the baptist), we have only limited authority to effect change, because we have not overcome ALL. What He did, we appropriate fully, in a process.

There's a warfare state and a rest state. Just KNOWING there's a rest state doesn't bring you into His complete rest, anymore than just KNOWING He's a healer, enables you to walk in it totally and heal everyone you come into contact with (yet). We have times and seasons of ALL of it, until we have appropriated ALL of it fully.

Rest is peace, and true peace that only comes from Him is when the flesh is no longer warring against the Spirit. As long as there is ANYTHING in our flesh left to raise up in His place, it will stand in us instead, thus keeping us needing to wage war against it to rid the flesh of it and break it's hold. Blessings....

PS. And now that I've caught up with all the other posts after this one of yours, Amen to it, too  :thumbsup:

A few months ago our small group (home bible study, life group) was doing along with our church a book called Emotionally healthy spirituality.  I was in the midst of walking in sin, and couldn't get out (you can see my first post on the welcome page for details).  I was barely reading the book, but did read one section.  In the book he talks about Matthew 5:3  Blessed are the poor in spirit for they will inherit the kingdom of God.  The word there means utterly destitute, he (the author) says "  picture a person in such abject poverty that he is incapable of doing anything more than lying in a corner with a palm upraised, hoping someone will take pity on him.  Picture someone who knows he will die unless someone has mercy upon him"

This stabbed me in the heart, and I could see that that is me for the first time, and that I am utterly helpless in the eyes of God, I am no better than anyone else (which was the main thrust of the book relating to this point that our pride says I'm better than that other beggar, I make more money than the other beggars, how foolish that thought is). 

The two edged sword pierced me so deep, God kept saying to me you are utterly helpless without Christ to pick you up and heal you.  God told me thats how he sees all of us, which is why Christ had to come, and the only way I could be healed was to reach out my hand and ask Him to pick me up.  My efforts were foolishness like me saying I'm better than the other beggars, which brought me to the root of pride.

That passage was the starting point which led me to UR, because it was ultimately me having to totally let go of my self will, and totally giving everything to God, at which point he gave me the revelation to research is hell eternal.

To the point of this post, this paradigm shift for me is what has totally changed my battle of the flesh.  Not that the battle isn't there, but fully ,visually spiritually realizing the victory is through Him.  I know this is elementary, but man it is exciting, and I hope it can help.

I think it's awesome.  Amen brother!

..and Amen!  (one wasn't enough!)

Quote from: Cardinal on January 09, 2011, 11:10:11 PM
:cloud9: If you're dead, who is it then that does any works thru you?

Faith without works is dead, and works without faith is dead. Let me reword that a little for clarity. Faith (apart from the Spirit-given faith) without works (apart from the Spirit, ie. the HG does the works) is dead (or produces death) and works (apart from the Spirit, ie. the HG does the works) without faith (apart from the Spirit-given faith) is dead (produces death).

It all begins and ends with Him. The struggle is from trying to do things in our flesh, ie. out of season, out of order, not according to pattern, INDEPENDENT of the working of the Spirit in us and thru us. What does the pattern of the Tabernacle show us, is where I begin.

The priests had to trim the wicks daily or else the place would smoke up and visibility was nil. This speaks of circumcising our hearts so that we can perceive more of Him, and therefore receive, more of Him, since we have to "see" Him to be changed to be as He is, from glory (terrestrial/fleshly) to glory (celestial/spiritual).

Putting the animal (carnal beastly natures) to death for sins was another repeat pattern given to us to show the necessity of making of ourselves a living sacrifice. The people who brought the animal laid their hands on it with the idea of transferrence of sins to the animal; Himself bore our sins.

The High Priest's offering took away the sins of the people once a year, but during that year they were STILL expected to bring forth the animals for their sins. Our High Priest took away the power of sin offering a permanent cleansing from it, BUT we are still expected to appropriate it by COOPERATING with the HG who DOES the works. If it were all done, then death the last enemy would be defeated, yet look around us, death still reigns from Adam to Moses because we are still under the law and it's effects SPIRITUALLY until it is all accomplished in us and thru us BY THE SPIRIT.

This is why He said today and tomorrow (2000 years) I will DO CURES AND CAST OUT DEVILS, but the third day, I will be perfected (completed). Who does the works? HE does. Do we have to do our part in cooperation by pressing in gaining wisdom and knowledge, growing to maturity, and that including appropriating deliverance? YES. Under the law if a man did not work, he did not eat.

The churches are full of people that are starving to death, because they've been taught by the Jezebel spirit that rules over them, not to work, living lives of "leisure" letting another man get their bread for them, which is against the commandment given for every man to get gather his own manna for his house, and TWICE that amount on the 6th day (which is NOW).

Herein lies the main problem, and that is that the churches taught that the law is not in effect because we are under grace, BUT Jesus said that not one jot or tittle would pass away till all be fulfilled. It has to be fulfilled in us spiritually, else God is a liar. Passover, was part of the law. Pentecost, was part of the law.

Do we "observe" these feasts spiritually, or no? Yes, we do, so then all the law means something to us spiritually, because you can't take one part of the law, or you're a debtor to the whole law. Well, He "set us up" because from the beginning of the NT covenant, He made us a debtor to the law, BUT the difference is that now we have a SPIRITUAL High Priest and a spiritually mediated and ENFORCED, covenant. The Spirit IS grace, grace is not something separate that excludes the law, it FULFILLS it. My  :2c: Blessings....

This is an incredible post.

Quote from: Cardinal on January 12, 2011, 03:06:11 AM

Quote from: Nathan on January 12, 2011, 12:54:10 AM
Those that would rule with Him must first rule over their own "kingdoms/gardens".[/color]

Can't quite digest this one Card, sorry . . .but I can't very well rule over my own garden unless I've been empowered by Him in the first place.  Casting my concerns into him is what is asked of me.  The overcoming doesn't come from within my own nature, it can only come through his "in" me.  And once I recognize and act on that, that act alone is evidence that I'm already with and in Him . . .it's all him from A to Z.  I know you see that as well.  But this one sentence kinda messed the rest of it up for me is all. 

It's BECAUSE I rule with him that I can then rule over my own kingdom.  Not by might, not by power . . .

It's not through my own laboring mind, my own strength, discipline, study, actions . . .it's all through him that any of those would manifest through me at all.

:cloud9: I know you know all this, but for clarification......I see what you're saying and without realizing I needed to make a distinction I didn't make; I was talking about one dimension of ruling and reigning (and you another). Both are equally true, just different "levels".

My point might be better stated as UNTIL He is all in all IN US (deliverance completed, in other words), we must press in and take dominion over our own "kingdom/garden", which we do in cooperation with the HG.

It's the "Satan can't cast out Satan," principle. Until He can FULLY STAND in us, bound by nothing (we're beheaded essentially like John the baptist), we have only limited authority to effect change, because we have not overcome ALL. What He did, we appropriate fully, in a process.

There's a warfare state and a rest state. Just KNOWING there's a rest state doesn't bring you into His complete rest, anymore than just KNOWING He's a healer, enables you to walk in it totally and heal everyone you come into contact with (yet). We have times and seasons of ALL of it, until we have appropriated ALL of it fully.

Rest is peace, and true peace that only comes from Him is when the flesh is no longer warring against the Spirit. As long as there is ANYTHING in our flesh left to raise up in His place, it will stand in us instead, thus keeping us needing to wage war against it to rid the flesh of it and break it's hold. Blessings....

PS. And now that I've caught up with all the other posts after this one of yours, Amen to it, too  :thumbsup:

Another incredible post, Cardinal.

It's the book of Joshua.


11And they did eat of the old corn of the land on the morrow after the passover, unleavened cakes, and parched corn in the selfsame day.

12And the manna ceased on the morrow after they had eaten of the old corn of the land; neither had the children of Israel manna any more; but they did eat of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year.

13And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?

14And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?

15And the captain of the LORD's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

--Josh 5

1Now Jericho was straitly shut up because of the children of Israel: none went out, and none came in.

2And the LORD said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valour.

3And ye shall compass the city, all ye men of war, and go round about the city once. Thus shalt thou do six days.

4And seven priests shall bear before the ark seven trumpets of rams' horns: and the seventh day ye shall compass the city seven times, and the priests shall blow with the trumpets.

5And it shall come to pass, that when they make a long blast with the ram's horn, and when ye hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city shall fall down flat, and the people shall ascend up every man straight before him.

--Josh 6

Quote from: jabcat on January 12, 2011, 01:41:49 AM
Nathan, as I was typing this, you took a step towards answering my "dilemma", with your last line.

You said "being at rest in Christ doesn't mean I do nothing.  It just means the battle isn't mine to fight anymore".  I agree with that, I'M JUST NOT ALWAYS SURE WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE AND HOW WE'RE TO WALK IT OUT".

Here's what I had typed.  I'll post it with the above now in play;

I started this thread, had and have several different thoughts rolling around in my head as evidenced by my OP.

Even before, and now that the thread's been going for awhile, seems to me I've heard and/or thought all these different things;

Let go, let God
Cast your cares on Him
Trust
Rest
Give over to Him
Surrender
Submit
It's not I that sin, it's sin in me (Jesus will [fully] one day deliver me), so
Relax


Then there are these;

Commit/re-commit
Press in
Overcome
Hold on tight
Don't give up
Keep the faith
Fight the fight
Rule over your flesh
Crucify your flesh
Don't let go

As I said, I probably do all these things at one time or another, often thinking I need to move more toward the first group.  But still, we hear all these "encouragements".    It reminds me of being a little kid, growing up in those country Pentecostal churches.  You may have someone down at the altar "praying through", with one well-meaning person on each side, coaching in each ear.  One's saying "LET GO!", the other says "HOLD ON!"..."LET GO!", "HOLD ON!", "LET GO!", "HOLD ON!"...

I too have had these same battles within my own mind recently.  I have been "battling the flesh" for as long as I can remember.  Personally, I'm exhausted.  Like magma said, I am utterly destitute...I have no ability to overcome...none.  But, what I have seen in my life is a slow, painful growth in spiritual maturity.

I remember a time when I looked for loopholes.  I wanted to run after the flesh without guilt.  The things that Nathan preaches about were not meant for me at that point in my walk.  I didn't want God more than anything.  I still wanted to keep certain sins.  I was a babe in Christ.  I was spiritually immature.  I lived how I wanted to live and it nearly took my family, my career and my life.  Sin brought me death.  It wasn't until I had experienced the weight of sin that I was relieved of it's true power...which was my love of the flesh over my love of God.  The flesh was my first love and it had to be put to death.

Today, I still have my battles...but what's different is I want God more than I want anything...more than my family, more than my career and certainly more than the flesh I must live in.  I see this and know it's God working within me.  I had no power over sin.  I still have no power over sin that doesn't come from the Father. 

I know in my spirit that what Nathan is saying is true.  It's that next step for me.  It's the ability to lay down that last bit of pride (that pride in MY ability to overcome) and just dwell in Him.  I need to trust the process.  I need to know he is in charge.  He knows my heart and he will give me the desires of my heart.  But, it will be on his time table.

Today, I have only one true, aching desire...and it's to experience him. 

Let me ask you or anyone who can relate to this a question.  Do you want God more than anything?  If the answer is no...then it's just not your time.  If the answer is a true heart felt yes...then how does brow beating ourselves with the proverbial whip, and closing our doors to Christ benefit our walk?  Why do we allow the failings of the flesh define us?  Why do we relate our "position" with Christ to how much sin we can resist?  For me and my walk, this is merely that last ounce of pride crying out for a home.  Today, I choose not to allow my flesh to define me...but I will press in...draw near...abide...and rest in his presence. 

Quote from: redhotmagma on February 02, 2011, 07:14:14 AM
A few months ago our small group (home bible study, life group) was doing along with our church a book called Emotionally healthy spirituality.  I was in the midst of walking in sin, and couldn't get out (you can see my first post on the welcome page for details).  I was barely reading the book, but did read one section.  In the book he talks about Matthew 5:3  Blessed are the poor in spirit for they will inherit the kingdom of God.  The word there means utterly destitute, he (the author) says "  picture a person in such abject poverty that he is incapable of doing anything more than lying in a corner with a palm upraised, hoping someone will take pity on him.  Picture someone who knows he will die unless someone has mercy upon him"

This stabbed me in the heart, and I could see that that is me for the first time, and that I am utterly helpless in the eyes of God, I am no better than anyone else (which was the main thrust of the book relating to this point that our pride says I'm better than that other beggar, I make more money than the other beggars, how foolish that thought is). 

The two edged sword pierced me so deep, God kept saying to me you are utterly helpless without Christ to pick you up and heal you.  God told me thats how he sees all of us, which is why Christ had to come, and the only way I could be healed was to reach out my hand and ask Him to pick me up.  My efforts were foolishness like me saying I'm better than the other beggars, which brought me to the root of pride.

That passage was the starting point which led me to UR, because it was ultimately me having to totally let go of my self will, and totally giving everything to God, at which point he gave me the revelation to research is hell eternal.

To the point of this post, this paradigm shift for me is what has totally changed my battle of the flesh.  Not that the battle isn't there, but fully ,visually spiritually realizing the victory is through Him.  I know this is elementary, but man it is exciting, and I hope it can help.

I am greatly blessed by this post and your openess.  That image of being utterly destitute is me.  I am without ANY ability on my own to overcome.  But, yet I see the process, this evolution, and I know it's not of me.  I can see the hand of God moving and rearranging my thought processes.  He is giving me spiritual eyes.  The flesh has less of a hold on me.  It wins less and less battles for my affections.  My interactions with people are different.  My priorities have changed.

Is this my doing?  Can I take ANY of that credit?  No!  It's the process God has set forth in my life.  It's the narrow path that we walk.  It's that path less traveled.

My prayer today is this, Lord relieve me of the last bits of pride within me.  Help me to know who I am in you.  Help me to draw near, and to seek your face.  Help me to not grow discouraged but let me abide in your rest.  And in that rest let me be relieved of me.  It has never been about me...it's always been about you.  Thank you for your grace, forgiveness and mercy.  Thank you for being my Father.  Thank you for adopting me as your son.  Amen.

 :cloud9: Excellent posts, redhotmagma and shawn.....and a hearty AMEN..... :thumbsup:

Quote from: shawn on February 02, 2011, 12:45:02 PM

Is this my doing?  Can I take ANY of that credit?  No!  It's the process God has set forth in my life.  It's the narrow path that we walk.  It's that path less traveled.

My prayer today is this, Lord relieve me of the last bits of pride within me.  Help me to know who I am in you.  Help me to draw near, and to seek your face.  Help me to not grow discouraged but let me abide in your rest.  And in that rest let me be relieved of me.  It has never been about me...it's always been about you.  Thank you for your grace, forgiveness and mercy.  Thank you for being my Father.  Thank you for adopting me as your son.  Amen.

I love this post.  :happy3: it made my heart sing.  :HeartThrob: You are man after God's own heart.  :HeartThrob:

CHB

 :2thumbs:

I'm blessed that you were blessed.  This thread has evolved into one of my favorites. 

I was reading Romans 7 in the Message translation and just began to weep.  I have read this passage many times in the NIV but never appreciated it in it's fullness.  After reading, it confirmed in my spirit that relationship with Christ, truly seeking his face is our only relief from the pressures of the flesh.  This passage is so relevant to this thread.

7But I can hear you say, "If the law code was as bad as all that, it's no better than sin itself." That's certainly not true. The law code had a perfectly legitimate function. Without its clear guidelines for right and wrong, moral behavior would be mostly guesswork. Apart from the succinct, surgical command, "You shall not covet," I could have dressed covetousness up to look like a virtue and ruined my life with it.

8-12Don't you remember how it was? I do, perfectly well. The law code started out as an excellent piece of work. What happened, though, was that sin found a way to pervert the command into a temptation, making a piece of "forbidden fruit" out of it. The law code, instead of being used to guide me, was used to seduce me. Without all the paraphernalia of the law code, sin looked pretty dull and lifeless, and I went along without paying much attention to it. But once sin got its hands on the law code and decked itself out in all that finery, I was fooled, and fell for it. The very command that was supposed to guide me into life was cleverly used to trip me up, throwing me headlong. So sin was plenty alive, and I was stone dead. But the law code itself is God's good and common sense, each command sane and holy counsel.

13I can already hear your next question: "Does that mean I can't even trust what is good [that is, the law]? Is good just as dangerous as evil?" No again! Sin simply did what sin is so famous for doing: using the good as a cover to tempt me to do what would finally destroy me. By hiding within God's good commandment, sin did far more mischief than it could ever have accomplished on its own.

14-16I can anticipate the response that is coming: "I know that all God's commands are spiritual, but I'm not. Isn't this also your experience?" Yes. I'm full of myself—after all, I've spent a long time in sin's prison. What I don't understand about myself is that I decide one way, but then I act another, doing things I absolutely despise. So if I can't be trusted to figure out what is best for myself and then do it, it becomes obvious that God's command is necessary.

17-20But I need something more! For if I know the law but still can't keep it, and if the power of sin within me keeps sabotaging my best intentions, I obviously need help! I realize that I don't have what it takes. I can will it, but I can't do it. I decide to do good, but I don't really do it; I decide not to do bad, but then I do it anyway. My decisions, such as they are, don't result in actions. Something has gone wrong deep within me and gets the better of me every time.

21-23It happens so regularly that it's predictable. The moment I decide to do good, sin is there to trip me up. I truly delight in God's commands, but it's pretty obvious that not all of me joins in that delight. Parts of me covertly rebel, and just when I least expect it, they take charge.

24I've tried everything and nothing helps. I'm at the end of my rope. Is there no one who can do anything for me? Isn't that the real question?

25The answer, thank God, is that Jesus Christ can and does. He acted to set things right in this life of contradictions where I want to serve God with all my heart and mind, but am pulled by the influence of sin to do something totally different.

And the solution in Romans chapter 8.  Amen and praise God!

The law always ended up being used as a Band-Aid on sin instead of a deep healing of it. And now what the law code asked for but we couldn't deliver is accomplished as we, instead of redoubling our own efforts, simply embrace what the Spirit is doing in us.

5-8Those who think they can do it on their own end up obsessed with measuring their own moral muscle but never get around to exercising it in real life. Those who trust God's action in them find that God's Spirit is in them—living and breathing God! Obsession with self in these matters is a dead end; attention to God leads us out into the open, into a spacious, free life. Focusing on the self is the opposite of focusing on God. Anyone completely absorbed in self ignores God, ends up thinking more about self than God. That person ignores who God is and what he is doing. And God isn't pleased at being ignored.