Are There Deceivers Today?

[jabcat]

Is there such a thing as a deceiver, or are we "all carrying truth and there is no difference between darkness and light"?  If we agree deceivers exist, then what is a deceiver?  How can they be identified?  Is it important to do so, and if so, why?  How are they/their message to be handled?

Why are descriptive terms used such as "angel of light", "wolves in sheep's clothing", "crept in [to your midsts] unaware", "there are those teaching destructive heresies" (not beautiful heresies :)?  Because the one who announces he's a "thief and robber" isn't nearly as dangerous as one that purports to be a trusted brother or sister?

"...even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light" 2 Cor. 11:14.

Is it possible the messenger may bring a brilliantly subtle counterfeit message that outwardly and almost overwhelmingly purports to be from the Lord?  Doesn't Paul warn against turning from the gospel of Christ and says that "even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed" (Gal. 1:8)?

Is it possible he/she may not appear in supernatural dazzling light, but in the familiar garb of one who is respected, even trusted, but then subtly proceed to distort the truth;  by doing so, sowing seeds of doubt and confusion, "leading many astray"?

What if they may use scripture and even coat their message with some truth, but overall the intention is to lead away from the teaching in scripture and the truth of the gospel?  "...do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God" (I John 4:1).  Two of the tests are the test of scripture, and the gift of discernment.  If the "spirit" should speak in any way that contradicts or distorts the gospel message, do you still believe it is of God—no matter how impressive the words might be?  Secondly, one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is the discerning of spirits (I Cor. 12:10).  Our spiritual discernment may at times suffer from human subjectivity and constantly needs the check of scripture.  However, isn't it an increasingly important test for the activity of spirits in our time?

Though many disagree and even bring reproach upon those that hold scripture to a trustworthy level, there are still some that believe we must have that standard, so we may guard against deceivers and "lying spirits".  Admittedly, many may be misinformed and dogmatically insist that we have a perfect copy of scripture.  Still others misuse scripture by misapplying it, using it out of ignorance and/or arrogance to dominate and manipulate others according to their own desires and personal gain.  However, personally I would hope that to anyone truly seeking Father's heart and not their own interests, we can see that unless we have the standard of both the Spirit and the logos, members of the body of Christ can be left vulnerable to many false doctrines and the sharp teeth of the wolves amongst the flock.

Are there deceivers?  If so, how do they appear and how specifically are they to be handled?

[sparrow]

This is a good question jabcat. I know there will be many thoughts on this.

Just from my perspective, I see it as everyone being in varying degrees of darkness. I think there are some that are very paranoid of others and see wolves in sheep's clothing all over the place. But maybe it's not really a wolf, but just another sheep who is lost. Some folks kinda jump all over people and shoot these so-called "wolves" down with all sorts of arrows and they stand there triumphantly like "ha! I slayed yet another wolf!" and I can't help but think...  :dontknow: but they're just another human. Can't we be a little more gentle and lovingly try to guide them?

And then there are OTHER sheep who DO try to sway others because they have their own agenda, maybe they are not thinking in spiritual terms whatsoever, maybe they are just swindlers trying to make $$$$. (lots of those around.) but they're still in need of love. The money they are trying to make thinking it will bring them happiness, but we know it ultimately will not. This person is seeking the same thing we are ALL seeking.... LOVE. This person just doesn't realize that what they seek is not money, what they seek is ACTUALLY God!!! But one day they will realize it. This is one of the reasons why Jesus said to love your enemies. So you can see their CORE being. Their humanness. Their deep down yearning for the same thing we ALL yearn for... God. We're all the same when it comes down to it. We really are. We're brothers and sisters all on different roads. Some of these roads are really, really SAD places. We can't hate a brother or a sister for being on a certain road... We have to look at them and see their deep down yearning for God. We all have it. That's what unites us.

oops, straying from the topic a bit...
back to the sheep..
... or maybe they just want their own belief system to be solid. So the more people they can get to share their beliefs, the more REAL their beliefs will be to them. There are certainly preachers and gurus all over who fit this description. But they are ALSO just human like the rest of us, they're just further away from the good Shepherd. They're just steeped in the darkness a little more, maybe. Maybe some of what they say is actually very GOOD! God can work in many different ways to reach people. Even if some people have an agenda, God can still touch people's hearts. That's the mystery and beauty of God. God can turn stuff around for good... He does it all the time.


I just tend to see all folks as humans who are just, like I said...  in varying degrees of darkness. A lot of times you just have to look at the heart. What they are saying... to kind of see where they may be coming from and why they might believe what they believe.

Everyone needs to be responsible for their own selves, their own beliefs. Everyone needs to talk to God, in their own personal way, more often. So they don't become rocked back and forth and swayed  by every doctrine and belief system out there.

[Molly]

I counted the word 'deceived' 36 times in one version of the New Testament.  The apostles, and Jesus himself, warn us again and again not to be deceived.   Why so many warnings?  Is it because deception is a powerful tool of the enemy, and that, combined with how easily we are deceived, makes us easy targets?

Revelation 12:9
.... that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: ....

The serpent deceives the whole world.  That means every one of us has been, is, or will be---deceived.

The question, then, is not are there deceivers, ---there are plenty--the question is why are we so easily deceived and how do we prevent being deceived?

We have been given two witnesses--the indwelling Holy Spirit and the Holy Scriptures--against which we are to test every doctrine and statement of man, every claim of the enemy.   Satan and his demons know the Bible better than most people, therefore, when Satan lies, as he did to Eve in the garden, the lie will contain a half truth embedded in the lie. 

Unless we know the entire truth--as given to us in the scriptures--we will easily fall for the half truth, as did Eve.

Did God really say... [Gen 3:1]... no man comes to the Father except through me?[Jn 14:6]

Indeed, unless we first acknowledge that Satan is lying to us all the time,  as the scriptures tell us, we will never even consider the fact that everything we think we know might be a lie.

We must first acknowledge that there are dark forces trying continually to deceive us and that we are easily deceived if we are to honor the warning given to us by our Lord--


Matthew 24:4
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

[captamajora]

I personally see the mass deception of humanity to be operating through the institution of religion.  I see the greatest deception to the "followers" of Christ coming from the established church, through the many lies of orthodoxy. The more subtle the deception- the more pernitious.  The greatest subtlety, in this case, being the source and vehicle of such deception...The CHURCH.

"For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many" Matthew 24:5

People assume that Jesus is talking about people that will come and claim themselves as the Christ. Look closely at what He says here.  He says that they will come "in My Name." What is the name of the group that uses the Name of Christ?  Christians!

I see Him saying: "People will indeed affirm Me as the Christ (with their mouth) but they will deceive many with their doctrines.

They will deceive with their doctrines of hell, the "conditionality" of God's Love, misinterpretations of "wrath", etc, etc...

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ."

Once again, the deceivers fashion themselves into "apostles of Christ."  They cite Christ's name but preach terribly destructive lies from their pulpits.

"...Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness..."
(2 Corinthians 11:14-15)

The deception doesn't come dressed in a red suit carrying a pitchfork! It comes dressed in a pinstripe suit (tie-clip and all), carrying a bible.

The bible desribes a deception that will basically fool all of the followers of Christ.  Christians are convinced that it is the "new-age" movement is the deception, but if so, it wouldn't be a good one because Christians have already identified it as the deception and vehemently shun any shadow of its teachings. ( I am not saying that these beliefs aren't deceptive, but I believe there to be a more insidious deception being spoken of the bible, a deception from "within.")

..."wolves in sheep's clothing"...

Aren't "sheep" followers of Christ?  Wouldn't "sheep's clothing" then be the "appearance" of a follower of Christ (ie., a pastor, minister, etc)?

Wouldn't the "wolf" be the twisted teachings that devour those that are indoctrinated, utterly destroying their peace and comfort?

So when you have nefarious anti-Christian teachings being promulgated through the insitution of Christainity by self-professed "followers" of Christ, you have "wolves in sheep's clothing."

The pervasive, wide-scale deception of Christ's followers doesn't come from an "enlightened" guru,  the new-ager, the entranced shaman, or anyone esle that is ostensibly "incongruant" with established orthodox Christianity. It comes from your local Christian church, from the pastor who carries his bible, and the priest who wears a crucifix.  It comes from those using the Name of Christ, those that "teach" Christ, etc.

This insidious deception has has been absolutely BRILLIANT!

That means every one of us has been, is, or will be---deceived.

This is why most everyone has that has any history of Christianity have fallen prey for these blatant lies.  What could be a better mode of disseminating lies about Christ but through Christianity.

If anyone is still waiting with baited breath for the deception, well...it's here. 

[Molly]

Revelation 12:9
.... that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: ....


This says the whole world is being deceived by Satan.  That means everybody, not just Christians, not just Buddhists, not just atheists---everybody.

We get some clue as to why here--everyone wants to be deceived--


19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. --John 3

[captamajora]

This says the whole world is being deceived by Satan.  That means everybody, not just Christians, not just Buddhists, not just atheists---everybody.

Right, which is why I wrote:

I personally see the mass deception of humanity to be operating through the institution of religion. 

I am including ALL religions and/or belief systems in this statement.

As far as atheism- it is still a belief system, of sorts. The belief in non-belief.  It still requires faith- faith that there is no God.

I was addressing the "Christian deceit" because that is what the bible focuses on...

"wolves in sheep's clothing"

"many will come in My name... and deceive many"

"false...apostles of Christ."

[Molly]

The problem is much more widespread than 'religion.'

What is Satan's most salient quality?  He's a liar.

Everyone lies all day long, to themselves and others, for starters.

Jeremiah 9:5
And they will deceive every one his neighbour, and will not speak the truth: they have taught their tongue to speak lies, and weary themselves to commit iniquity.

[sparrow]

This says the whole world is being deceived by Satan.  That means everybody, not just Christians, not just Buddhists, not just atheists---everybody.

Right, which is why I wrote:

I personally see the mass deception of humanity to be operating through the institution of religion. 

I am including ALL religions and/or belief systems in this statement.

As far as atheism- it is still a belief system, of sorts. The belief in non-belief.  It still requires faith- faith that there is no God.

I was addressing the "Christian deceit" because that is what the bible focuses on...

"wolves in sheep's clothing"

"many will come in My name... and deceive many"

"false...apostles of Christ."

yup.  You're completely right.

[sparrow]

The problem is much more widespread than 'religion.'

What is Satan's most salient quality?  He's a liar.

Everyone lies all day long, to themselves and others, for starters.

Jeremiah 9:5
And they will deceive every one his neighbour, and will not speak the truth: they have taught their tongue to speak lies, and weary themselves to commit iniquity.

?? What do you mean?

[Molly]

What do you mean, Sparrow?

That the great deceiver is all religions and belief systems?

So are our heads supposed to be--empty?

[Molly]

The problem is much more widespread than 'religion.'

What is Satan's most salient quality?  He's a liar.

Everyone lies all day long, to themselves and others, for starters.

Jeremiah 9:5
And they will deceive every one his neighbour, and will not speak the truth: they have taught their tongue to speak lies, and weary themselves to commit iniquity.

?? What do you mean?

I mean what I said--everyone lies all day long.

By the way, believing a lie is a lie.

That's a good starting point--to acknowledge that.

Or, here's another way to say the same thing--


19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. --John 3

[sparrow]

What do you mean, Sparrow?

That the great deceiver is all religions and belief systems?

So are our heads supposed to be--empty?

Huh? what do you mean our heads are supposed to be empty?

What I mean, is I agree with captamajora... everything he said is correct, in my opinion.

[captamajora]

The problem is much more widespread than 'religion.'

Ok, but what is this deception that is spoken of about? 

Christ wasn't talking about your buddy who lies to you about being good at golf.

The deception is about God.  Religion is man's "medium" to God, in which he tries to comprehend, experience, and come to know God.

Therefore, lies about God are primarily disseminated through the "medium" of religion.

Everyone lies all day long, to themselves and others, for starters.

Hmmm....that's a little bit of a dismal view, but ok. 

I do believe that we lie to ourselves but it is not always conscious.  Also, there is a distinction between lying and being mistaken.

I believe that most pastors that teach the doctrine of hell are sincere in their beliefs.  I don't believe that they are actively trying to deceive anyone.

"Today I'm going to trick my congregation into thinking that God will torture the lost for eternity...ha ha."

The pastor can preach lies, without lying. He is not willfully misrepresenting the truth, but is genuinely mistaken. Granted, he should be more responsible for unearthing the truth, but that is another story.

[Molly]

well, ok, let's talk about what fosters evil in the world.

If we were going to nurture and grow evil, how would we do it?

By telling lies about everything?  Everything.  That's how you deceive the whole world.

The truth is shrouded in secrecy--darkness.  Most do not  know or want to know the truth.

So--we are all in this pack of lies together.

Jesus says, I am the truth...

That means that Jesus is telling us the truth all the time.

That means that if we are abiding in Jesus, we will also tell the truth all the time.

But, nobody does--very few do--most lie all day long.

[captamajora]

So--we are all in this pack of lies together.
That means that if we are abiding in Jesus, we will also tell the truth all the time.
But, nobody does--very few do--most lie all day long.

Molly, do you lie all day long to everyone, even yourself?

[Molly]

So--we are all in this pack of lies together.
That means that if we are abiding in Jesus, we will also tell the truth all the time.
But, nobody does--very few do--most lie all day long.

Molly, do you lie all day long to everyone, even yourself?

In order not to lie, you have to welcome the light of Christ.

This is a light which shines into every corner of your mind and heart.

Our natural instinct is to avoid this light.  What will be exposed?  What will be required of us?

Let's take the husband lying to his wife about an affair--they both know, yet he lies to her and she believes it because --they are complicitious--because if they face the truth, they will have to do something about it.

Do you think Satan could be so successful at deceiving the whole world without every man co-operating in collusion with him?

What happened to Jesus for telling the truth?  Telling the truth is not for the faint of heart.

[jabcat]

A lot of good thoughts and comments, some enlightening/good reminders.  A thought I had today is, "what if I'm a deceiver and don't know it?", conversely, "what if 'you' are a deceiver and don't realize it?".  Would I be open to my untruths being refuted and shown a better way, or would 'you'?  And how would you do it?  With your own opinions, or would you take me to the logos to show me?  And if you didn't hold the logos as a standard, then why should I believe you?  I've already heard thousands of opinions.

Should you come to me only as to share/teach the truth to me hoping I would hear it, or should you come more directly to me and say "I believe you are in error, you are being deceitful, here's why, here's what I base that on"?  Again, Paul said "let them be accursed".  Wonder what that means exactly and what it looks like?  Seems to me there is some judgment going on here...if not judgment, then at least some sort of discernment then a "turning over to Satan" or a turning away somehow.  Again, Paul didn't say "well, everybody's alright, just pick and choose what parts you want"...he talked of a specific gospel, testing, trying for truth, and consequences if found wanting.
On the other hand, he also said "if anyone be ignorant, let him remain ignorant", and Jesus talked of the wheat and tares growing together...but again, Paul said to refute error...so.....

In my own simple-mindedness I maintain that I will still benefit from the check against the Spirit and the logos, or else I would be concerned that there are those I could lead astray with just my own foolish thoughts/vain imaginations...so maybe they don't have a firm faith or are weak in the faith...isn't that who we're especially supposed to be careful of and look after?  Personally, I don't want a millstone.  I don't think it would make a very good necklace.  Just some further thoughts and observations...God's blessing.

[captamajora]

"what if I'm a deceiver and don't know it?", conversely, "what if 'you' are a deceiver and don't realize it?".  Would I be open to my untruths being refuted and shown a better way, or would 'you'?

Great point, Jab...

I think that spirituality is a journey of discovery. God teaches us something new about Him all of the time.  We may alter certain beliefs, and or completely reject beliefs that we once embraced. It's all part of the process.

If we change an opinion about one aspect of our belief, that doesn't mean that everything that we have ever maintained has been a complete lie.

When you stopped believing in "hell", you didn't claim that EVERYTHING that you had ever learned about Christ was a lie!

We have to guard against becoming dogmatic and LOCKED within our current set of beliefs. We have to welcome criticism and thoughtfully evaluate our own beliefs.

A consuming and unabating fear of deception will stifle one's walk with God.  Instead of always searching for a better comprehension of the truth, this inevitably leads to spiritual stagnation.

[Molly]

It's not something we can do ourselves, Jab.  We have to keep clinging to him, until his fruit appears.


John 15:1
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.


John 15:4
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

[sparrow]

We have to guard against becoming dogmatic and LOCKED within our current set of beliefs. We have to welcome criticism and thoughtfully evaluate our own beliefs.

A consuming and unabating fear of deception will stifle one's walk with God.  Instead of always searching for a better comprehension of the truth, this inevitably leads to spiritual stagnation.

Exactly.

[jabcat]

I agree with much of that Cap...but don't you think there's a balance, not that we need to constantly live in fear, but that we do need to be aware of either the possibility of deceiving or being deceived?  Otherwise I don't think there would be such direct, dire warnings against it, including Jesus' admonition wrt the millstone. My  :2c:.

[Molly]

A consuming and unabating fear of deception will stifle one's walk with God.  Instead of always searching for a better comprehension of the truth, this inevitably leads to spiritual stagnation.

The fear people have is not of deception.  Nobody fears being deceived.  Everyone welcomes being deceived. Let's all go to Disneyland!  That is why Satan is so successful.

The fear most people have is of the truth.

Isaiah 59:4
None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.

[jabcat]

That's a good point Molly, and I had missed it...aka "itching ears"...I know I've got'em...I often want to hear what makes me feel good and comfortable, not what God wants to use to change me...yikes!  Guess that's probably part of what makes it so subtle...and dangerous.

Bonus-- :wink:.  "And that's another thing"  :soap:... balance, seeking the whole counsel of God.  Does it seem that we either believe in one thing or the other...that often we can't accept that there's truth to embrace and error to refute?  And I agree with Cap..none of us know it all yet.  But, IMO that doesn't mean we shouldn't still be seeking truth (not just what I want to be true, but what is).  I'll leave it at that, I think there are more of these either/or's, but I'll hijack my own thread :doh:.

[sparrow]

A constant paranoid fear of being deceived WILL stifle one's walk with God. Fear snowballs and pretty soon your ability to trust becomes completely eroded to the point where you have no idea what is truth and what is not.

Jabcat... I think balance is exactly what captamajora is talking about.
He said a "consuming" and "unabating" fear of deception.
Which is what some fall into...
A consuming fear is a deep hole to have to climb out of...

Guarding yourself:

Not being consumed by fear of deception. Always looking for and seeing evil lurking about in every single corner is so unhealthy. Constantly seeing darkness even where there is actually light can cheat you out of some great and wonderful truths.

Not being consumed by your own personal views...
meaning, allowing yourself to explore your beliefs and your truths and always be seeking. To be steadfast but open-minded to the possibility that your own beliefs may be not be quite correct...
Always be seeking truth. TRUTH. What good are your beliefs if there is no truth to them?
Always be willing to have your beliefs refined..

balance is key.

[Molly]

When he starts turning on the lights, it's an awesome thing.  It almost killed Paul.  Yet, if he doesn't turn on the lights, we are constantly bumping into things in the dark that we cannot identify.  Do we want to identify them?  Men prefer the dark.  One has to really really want the truth more than the lie.



John 11:9
Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.


John 11:10
But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.