Is there such a thing as a deceiver, or are we "all carrying truth and there is no difference between darkness and light"? If we agree deceivers exist, then what is a deceiver? How can they be identified? Is it important to do so, and if so, why? How are they/their message to be handled?
Why are descriptive terms used such as "angel of light", "wolves in sheep's clothing", "crept in [to your midsts] unaware", "there are those teaching destructive heresies" (not beautiful heresies :)? Because the one who announces he's a "thief and robber" isn't nearly as dangerous as one that purports to be a trusted brother or sister?
"...even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light" 2 Cor. 11:14.
Is it possible the messenger may bring a brilliantly subtle counterfeit message that outwardly and almost overwhelmingly purports to be from the Lord? Doesn't Paul warn against turning from the gospel of Christ and says that "even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed" (Gal. 1:8)?
Is it possible he/she may not appear in supernatural dazzling light, but in the familiar garb of one who is respected, even trusted, but then subtly proceed to distort the truth; by doing so, sowing seeds of doubt and confusion, "leading many astray"?
What if they may use scripture and even coat their message with some truth, but overall the intention is to lead away from the teaching in scripture and the truth of the gospel? "...do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God" (I John 4:1). Two of the tests are the test of scripture, and the gift of discernment. If the "spirit" should speak in any way that contradicts or distorts the gospel message, do you still believe it is of God—no matter how impressive the words might be? Secondly, one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is the discerning of spirits (I Cor. 12:10). Our spiritual discernment may at times suffer from human subjectivity and constantly needs the check of scripture. However, isn't it an increasingly important test for the activity of spirits in our time?
Though many disagree and even bring reproach upon those that hold scripture to a trustworthy level, there are still some that believe we must have that standard, so we may guard against deceivers and "lying spirits". Admittedly, many may be misinformed and dogmatically insist that we have a perfect copy of scripture. Still others misuse scripture by misapplying it, using it out of ignorance and/or arrogance to dominate and manipulate others according to their own desires and personal gain. However, personally I would hope that to anyone truly seeking Father's heart and not their own interests, we can see that unless we have the standard of both the Spirit and the logos, members of the body of Christ can be left vulnerable to many false doctrines and the sharp teeth of the wolves amongst the flock.
Are there deceivers? If so, how do they appear and how specifically are they to be handled?
This is a good question jabcat. I know there will be many thoughts on this.
Just from my perspective, I see it as everyone being in varying degrees of darkness. I think there are some that are very paranoid of others and see wolves in sheep's clothing all over the place. But maybe it's not really a wolf, but just another sheep who is lost. Some folks kinda jump all over people and shoot these so-called "wolves" down with all sorts of arrows and they stand there triumphantly like "ha! I slayed yet another wolf!" and I can't help but think... :dontknow: but they're just another human. Can't we be a little more gentle and lovingly try to guide them?
And then there are OTHER sheep who DO try to sway others because they have their own agenda, maybe they are not thinking in spiritual terms whatsoever, maybe they are just swindlers trying to make $$$$. (lots of those around.) but they're still in need of love. The money they are trying to make thinking it will bring them happiness, but we know it ultimately will not. This person is seeking the same thing we are ALL seeking.... LOVE. This person just doesn't realize that what they seek is not money, what they seek is ACTUALLY God!!! But one day they will realize it. This is one of the reasons why Jesus said to love your enemies. So you can see their CORE being. Their humanness. Their deep down yearning for the same thing we ALL yearn for... God. We're all the same when it comes down to it. We really are. We're brothers and sisters all on different roads. Some of these roads are really, really SAD places. We can't hate a brother or a sister for being on a certain road... We have to look at them and see their deep down yearning for God. We all have it. That's what unites us.
oops, straying from the topic a bit...
back to the sheep..
... or maybe they just want their own belief system to be solid. So the more people they can get to share their beliefs, the more REAL their beliefs will be to them. There are certainly preachers and gurus all over who fit this description. But they are ALSO just human like the rest of us, they're just further away from the good Shepherd. They're just steeped in the darkness a little more, maybe. Maybe some of what they say is actually very GOOD! God can work in many different ways to reach people. Even if some people have an agenda, God can still touch people's hearts. That's the mystery and beauty of God. God can turn stuff around for good... He does it all the time.
I just tend to see all folks as humans who are just, like I said... in varying degrees of darkness. A lot of times you just have to look at the heart. What they are saying... to kind of see where they may be coming from and why they might believe what they believe.
Everyone needs to be responsible for their own selves, their own beliefs. Everyone needs to talk to God, in their own personal way, more often. So they don't become rocked back and forth and swayed by every doctrine and belief system out there.
I counted the word 'deceived' 36 times in one version of the New Testament. The apostles, and Jesus himself, warn us again and again not to be deceived. Why so many warnings? Is it because deception is a powerful tool of the enemy, and that, combined with how easily we are deceived, makes us easy targets?
Revelation 12:9
.... that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: ....
The serpent deceives the whole world. That means every one of us has been, is, or will be---deceived.
The question, then, is not are there deceivers, ---there are plenty--the question is why are we so easily deceived and how do we prevent being deceived?
We have been given two witnesses--the indwelling Holy Spirit and the Holy Scriptures--against which we are to test every doctrine and statement of man, every claim of the enemy. Satan and his demons know the Bible better than most people, therefore, when Satan lies, as he did to Eve in the garden, the lie will contain a half truth embedded in the lie.
Unless we know the entire truth--as given to us in the scriptures--we will easily fall for the half truth, as did Eve.
Did God really say... [Gen 3:1]... no man comes to the Father except through me?[Jn 14:6]
Indeed, unless we first acknowledge that Satan is lying to us all the time, as the scriptures tell us, we will never even consider the fact that everything we think we know might be a lie.
We must first acknowledge that there are dark forces trying continually to deceive us and that we are easily deceived if we are to honor the warning given to us by our Lord--
Matthew 24:4
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
I personally see the mass deception of humanity to be operating through the institution of religion. I see the greatest deception to the "followers" of Christ coming from the established church, through the many lies of orthodoxy. The more subtle the deception- the more pernitious. The greatest subtlety, in this case, being the source and vehicle of such deception...The CHURCH.
"For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many" Matthew 24:5
People assume that Jesus is talking about people that will come and claim themselves as the Christ. Look closely at what He says here. He says that they will come "in My Name." What is the name of the group that uses the Name of Christ? Christians!
I see Him saying: "People will indeed affirm Me as the Christ (with their mouth) but they will deceive many with their doctrines.
They will deceive with their doctrines of hell, the "conditionality" of God's Love, misinterpretations of "wrath", etc, etc...
"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers,
transforming themselves into apostles of Christ."
Once again, the deceivers fashion themselves into "apostles of Christ." They cite Christ's name but preach terribly destructive lies from their pulpits.
"...Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves
into ministers of righteousness..."
(2 Corinthians 11:14-15)
The deception doesn't come dressed in a red suit carrying a pitchfork! It comes dressed in a pinstripe suit (tie-clip and all), carrying a bible.
The bible desribes a deception that will basically fool all of the followers of Christ. Christians are convinced that it is the "new-age" movement is the deception, but if so, it wouldn't be a good one because Christians have already identified it as the deception and vehemently shun any shadow of its teachings. ( I am not saying that these beliefs aren't deceptive, but I believe there to be a more insidious deception being spoken of the bible, a deception from "within.")
Quote from: jabcat on April 19, 2008, 05:52:31 AM
..."wolves in sheep's clothing"...
Aren't "sheep" followers of Christ? Wouldn't "sheep's clothing" then be the "appearance" of a follower of Christ (ie., a pastor, minister, etc)?
Wouldn't the "wolf" be the twisted teachings that devour those that are indoctrinated, utterly destroying their peace and comfort?
So when you have nefarious anti-Christian teachings being promulgated through the insitution of Christainity by self-professed "followers" of Christ, you have "wolves in sheep's clothing."
The pervasive, wide-scale deception of Christ's followers doesn't come from an "enlightened" guru, the new-ager, the entranced shaman, or anyone esle that is ostensibly "incongruant" with established orthodox Christianity. It comes from your local Christian church, from the pastor who carries his bible, and the priest who wears a crucifix. It comes from those using the Name of Christ, those that "teach" Christ, etc.
This insidious deception has has been absolutely BRILLIANT!
Quote from: Molly on April 19, 2008, 02:17:54 PM
That means every one of us has been, is, or will be---deceived.
This is why most everyone has that has any history of Christianity have fallen prey for these blatant lies. What could be a better mode of disseminating lies about Christ but through Christianity.
If anyone is still waiting with baited breath for the deception, well...it's here.
Revelation 12:9
.... that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: ....
This says the whole world is being deceived by Satan. That means everybody, not just Christians, not just Buddhists, not just atheists---everybody.
We get some clue as to why here--everyone wants to be deceived--
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. --John 3
Quote from: Molly on April 20, 2008, 06:11:06 AM
This says the whole world is being deceived by Satan. That means everybody, not just Christians, not just Buddhists, not just atheists---everybody.
Right, which is why I wrote:
Quote from: captamajora on April 20, 2008, 06:01:47 AM
I personally see the mass deception of humanity to be operating through the institution of religion.
I am including ALL religions and/or belief systems in this statement.
As far as atheism- it is still a belief system, of sorts. The belief in non-belief. It still requires faith- faith that there is no God.
I was addressing the "Christian deceit" because that is what the bible focuses on...
"wolves in
sheep's clothing"
"many will come
in My name... and deceive many"
"false...apostles of
Christ."
The problem is much more widespread than 'religion.'
What is Satan's most salient quality? He's a liar.
Everyone lies all day long, to themselves and others, for starters.
Jeremiah 9:5
And they will deceive every one his neighbour, and will not speak the truth: they have taught their tongue to speak lies, and weary themselves to commit iniquity.
Quote from: captamajora on April 20, 2008, 06:27:30 AM
Quote from: Molly on April 20, 2008, 06:11:06 AM
This says the whole world is being deceived by Satan. That means everybody, not just Christians, not just Buddhists, not just atheists---everybody.
Right, which is why I wrote:
Quote from: captamajora on April 20, 2008, 06:01:47 AM
I personally see the mass deception of humanity to be operating through the institution of religion.
I am including ALL religions and/or belief systems in this statement.
As far as atheism- it is still a belief system, of sorts. The belief in non-belief. It still requires faith- faith that there is no God.
I was addressing the "Christian deceit" because that is what the bible focuses on...
"wolves in sheep's clothing"
"many will come in My name... and deceive many"
"false...apostles of Christ."
yup. You're completely right.
Quote from: Molly on April 20, 2008, 06:35:31 AM
The problem is much more widespread than 'religion.'
What is Satan's most salient quality? He's a liar.
Everyone lies all day long, to themselves and others, for starters.
Jeremiah 9:5
And they will deceive every one his neighbour, and will not speak the truth: they have taught their tongue to speak lies, and weary themselves to commit iniquity.
?? What do you mean?
What do you mean, Sparrow?
That the great deceiver is all religions and belief systems?
So are our heads supposed to be--empty?
Quote from: sparrow on April 20, 2008, 06:47:40 AM
Quote from: Molly on April 20, 2008, 06:35:31 AM
The problem is much more widespread than 'religion.'
What is Satan's most salient quality? He's a liar.
Everyone lies all day long, to themselves and others, for starters.
Jeremiah 9:5
And they will deceive every one his neighbour, and will not speak the truth: they have taught their tongue to speak lies, and weary themselves to commit iniquity.
?? What do you mean?
I mean what I said--everyone lies all day long.
By the way, believing a lie is a lie.
That's a good starting point--to acknowledge that.
Or, here's another way to say the same thing--
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. --John 3
Quote from: Molly on April 20, 2008, 06:49:05 AM
What do you mean, Sparrow?
That the great deceiver is all religions and belief systems?
So are our heads supposed to be--empty?
Huh? what do you mean our heads are supposed to be empty?
What I mean, is I agree with captamajora... everything he said is correct, in my opinion.
Quote from: Molly on April 20, 2008, 06:35:31 AM
The problem is much more widespread than 'religion.'
Ok, but what is this deception that is spoken of about?
Christ wasn't talking about your buddy who lies to you about being good at golf.
The deception is about God.
Religion is man's "medium" to God, in which he tries to comprehend, experience, and come to know God.
Therefore, lies about God are primarily disseminated through the "medium" of religion.
Quote from: Molly on April 20, 2008, 06:35:31 AM
Everyone lies all day long, to themselves and others, for starters.
Hmmm....that's a little bit of a dismal view, but ok.
I do believe that we lie to ourselves but it is not always conscious. Also, there is a distinction between
lying and being
mistaken.
I believe that most pastors that teach the doctrine of hell are sincere in their beliefs. I don't believe that they are actively trying to deceive anyone.
"Today I'm going to trick my congregation into thinking that God will torture the lost for eternity...ha ha."
The pastor can preach lies, without lying. He is not willfully misrepresenting the truth, but is genuinely mistaken. Granted, he should be more responsible for unearthing the truth, but that is another story.
well, ok, let's talk about what fosters evil in the world.
If we were going to nurture and grow evil, how would we do it?
By telling lies about everything? Everything. That's how you deceive the whole world.
The truth is shrouded in secrecy--darkness. Most do not know or want to know the truth.
So--we are all in this pack of lies together.
Jesus says, I am the truth...
That means that Jesus is telling us the truth all the time.
That means that if we are abiding in Jesus, we will also tell the truth all the time.
But, nobody does--very few do--most lie all day long.
Quote from: Molly on April 20, 2008, 07:05:50 AM
So--we are all in this pack of lies together.
That means that if we are abiding in Jesus, we will also tell the truth all the time.
But, nobody does--very few do--most lie all day long.
Molly, do you lie all day long to everyone, even yourself?
Quote from: captamajora on April 20, 2008, 07:12:43 AM
Quote from: Molly on April 20, 2008, 07:05:50 AM
So--we are all in this pack of lies together.
That means that if we are abiding in Jesus, we will also tell the truth all the time.
But, nobody does--very few do--most lie all day long.
Molly, do you lie all day long to everyone, even yourself?
In order not to lie, you have to welcome the light of Christ.
This is a light which shines into every corner of your mind and heart.
Our natural instinct is to avoid this light. What will be exposed? What will be required of us?
Let's take the husband lying to his wife about an affair--they both know, yet he lies to her and she believes it because --they are complicitious--because if they face the truth, they will have to do something about it.
Do you think Satan could be so successful at deceiving the whole world without every man co-operating in collusion with him?
What happened to Jesus for telling the truth? Telling the truth is not for the faint of heart.
A lot of good thoughts and comments, some enlightening/good reminders. A thought I had today is, "what if I'm a deceiver and don't know it?", conversely, "what if 'you' are a deceiver and don't realize it?". Would I be open to my untruths being refuted and shown a better way, or would 'you'? And how would you do it? With your own opinions, or would you take me to the logos to show me? And if you didn't hold the logos as a standard, then why should I believe you? I've already heard thousands of opinions.
Should you come to me only as to share/teach the truth to me hoping I would hear it, or should you come more directly to me and say "I believe you are in error, you are being deceitful, here's why, here's what I base that on"? Again, Paul said "let them be accursed". Wonder what that means exactly and what it looks like? Seems to me there is some judgment going on here...if not judgment, then at least some sort of discernment then a "turning over to Satan" or a turning away somehow. Again, Paul didn't say "well, everybody's alright, just pick and choose what parts you want"...he talked of a specific gospel, testing, trying for truth, and consequences if found wanting.
On the other hand, he also said "if anyone be ignorant, let him remain ignorant", and Jesus talked of the wheat and tares growing together...but again, Paul said to refute error...so.....
In my own simple-mindedness I maintain that I will still benefit from the check against the Spirit and the logos, or else I would be concerned that there are those I could lead astray with just my own foolish thoughts/vain imaginations...so maybe they don't have a firm faith or are weak in the faith...isn't that who we're especially supposed to be careful of and look after? Personally, I don't want a millstone. I don't think it would make a very good necklace. Just some further thoughts and observations...God's blessing.
Quote from: jabcat on April 20, 2008, 07:19:39 AM
"what if I'm a deceiver and don't know it?", conversely, "what if 'you' are a deceiver and don't realize it?". Would I be open to my untruths being refuted and shown a better way, or would 'you'?
Great point, Jab...
I think that spirituality is a journey of discovery. God teaches us something new about Him all of the time. We may alter certain beliefs, and or completely reject beliefs that we once embraced. It's all part of the process.
If we change an opinion about one aspect of our belief, that doesn't mean that everything that we have ever maintained has been a complete lie.
When you stopped believing in "hell", you didn't claim that EVERYTHING that you had ever learned about Christ was a lie!
We have to guard against becoming dogmatic and LOCKED within our current set of beliefs. We have to welcome criticism and thoughtfully evaluate our own beliefs.
A consuming and unabating fear of deception will stifle one's walk with God. Instead of always searching for a better comprehension of the truth, this inevitably leads to spiritual stagnation.
It's not something we can do ourselves, Jab. We have to keep clinging to him, until his fruit appears.
John 15:1
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:4
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Quote from: captamajora on April 20, 2008, 07:32:43 AM
We have to guard against becoming dogmatic and LOCKED within our current set of beliefs. We have to welcome criticism and thoughtfully evaluate our own beliefs.
A consuming and unabating fear of deception will stifle one's walk with God. Instead of always searching for a better comprehension of the truth, this inevitably leads to spiritual stagnation.
Exactly.
I agree with much of that Cap...but don't you think there's a balance, not that we need to constantly live in fear, but that we do need to be aware of either the possibility of deceiving or being deceived? Otherwise I don't think there would be such direct, dire warnings against it, including Jesus' admonition wrt the millstone. My :2c:.
QuoteA consuming and unabating fear of deception will stifle one's walk with God. Instead of always searching for a better comprehension of the truth, this inevitably leads to spiritual stagnation.
The fear people have is not of deception. Nobody fears being deceived. Everyone welcomes being deceived. Let's all go to Disneyland! That is why Satan is so successful.
The fear most people have is of the truth.
Isaiah 59:4
None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.
That's a good point Molly, and I had missed it...aka "itching ears"...I know I've got'em...I often want to hear what makes me feel good and comfortable, not what God wants to use to change me...yikes! Guess that's probably part of what makes it so subtle...and dangerous.
Bonus-- :wink:. "And that's another thing" :soap:... balance, seeking the whole counsel of God. Does it seem that we either believe in one thing or the other...that often we can't accept that there's truth to embrace and error to refute? And I agree with Cap..none of us know it all yet. But, IMO that doesn't mean we shouldn't still be seeking truth (not just what I want to be true, but what is). I'll leave it at that, I think there are more of these either/or's, but I'll hijack my own thread :doh:.
A constant paranoid fear of being deceived WILL stifle one's walk with God. Fear snowballs and pretty soon your ability to trust becomes completely eroded to the point where you have no idea what is truth and what is not.
Jabcat... I think balance is exactly what captamajora is talking about.
He said a "consuming" and "unabating" fear of deception.
Which is what some fall into...
A consuming fear is a deep hole to have to climb out of...
Guarding yourself:
Not being consumed by fear of deception. Always looking for and seeing evil lurking about in every single corner is so unhealthy. Constantly seeing darkness even where there is actually light can cheat you out of some great and wonderful truths.
Not being consumed by your own personal views...
meaning, allowing yourself to explore your beliefs and your truths and always be seeking. To be steadfast but open-minded to the possibility that your own beliefs may be not be quite correct...
Always be seeking truth. TRUTH. What good are your beliefs if there is no truth to them?
Always be willing to have your beliefs refined..
balance is key.
When he starts turning on the lights, it's an awesome thing. It almost killed Paul. Yet, if he doesn't turn on the lights, we are constantly bumping into things in the dark that we cannot identify. Do we want to identify them? Men prefer the dark. One has to really really want the truth more than the lie.
John 11:9
Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
John 11:10
But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.
Quote from: jabcat on April 20, 2008, 07:47:40 AM
I agree with much of that Cap...but don't you think there's a balance, not that we need to constantly live in fear, but that we do need to be aware of either the possibility of deceiving or being deceived?
Yeah, I agree. I wrote:
Quote from: captamajora on April 20, 2008, 07:32:43 AM
We have to guard against becoming dogmatic and LOCKED within our current set of beliefs. We have to welcome criticism and thoughtfully evaluate our own beliefs.
We need to be open to criticism and evaluate our
own beliefs. We have to evaluate whether we are in error or not, and be open to the possibility of being in error.
Quote from: jabcat on April 20, 2008, 07:58:21 AM
And I agree with Cap..none of us know it all yet. But, IMO that doesn't mean we shouldn't still be seeking truth (not just what I want to be true, but what is).
Yes, I agree. It seems as though you are insinuating that I am seeking what I want to be true, rather than what is true.
Cap, thanks for putting it that way, because I wasn't thinking that at all, that statement was not directed at you...maybe I should've said "I" rather than "we"...
Quote from: sparrow on April 20, 2008, 08:09:12 AM
Always looking for and seeing evil lurking about in every single corner is so unhealthy. Constantly seeing darkness even where there is actually light can cheat you out of some great and wonderful truths.
This is very insightful, Sparrow.
You can get so enveloped in darkness- it will enslave you. There is most certainly a balance.
We talk about "seeking truth." Seeking involves movement- a progression. It's not curling up into a little ball and peering out from your finger's over your eyes to see of there is something there to deceive you.
I certainly don't believe that every person, every experience, every piece of writing, every perspective, every relationship, every friendship, every insight, and every conversation is a lie.
There are 30,000 denominations within protestant Christianity and each one believes that all of the others are deceived and each one believes that they, themselves, have the Holy Spirit. Is there only one church our the 30,000 that has the Holy Spirit working within? Which one?
I see it as process- our falling into deception being part of the process. Falling into deception (as long as you realize your error) is like any human failure. Failure is an integral part of the process of Spiritual growth. We are susceptible to failure in our futility, and we are susceptible to deception in our futility. This does not mean that we should go looking for it, or be apathetic about it.
The old adage: "You learn from your mistakes." Because I learn from my mistakes, I do not look to make mistakes. Because I learn from my mistakes, I am not less careful in making mistakes.
I know of a UR writer that said that his belief in Hell was indispensible for him. After he realized the fallacy of this teaching, he was able to develop a stronger bond with God. He said that belief in hell giving way to the belief in the salvation of all gave him a closeness to God that he said he wouldn't have otherwise had.
Bernie, I don't think we have a "perfect" copy of scripture, though I personally believe there's a type of "perfection" in the sense that we have [at this moment, for this moment] what God wants us to have [He may increasingly clarify/shed light day by day]; that it does contain His truths, because He said He would preserve it; and, that the manner in which He has given it to us encourages/necessitates us searching/seeking, i.e., "it is the glory of God to conceal a matter, the honor of kings to search out a matter", Prov. 25:2). I also realize/believe the oldest manuscripts agree at least about 96-98% of the time. However, wrt UR, I believe it is found within the logos, as I've said, properly translated, divided, and revealed.
My personal POV is that this is one of those other either/or issues I alluded to in one of my last posts, i.e., that it's not only the logos or the rhema, but both that we need. I won't go into a long exchange on this as I've said it all before..also, we'll both sit at Jesus' feet someday and He'll surprise us both with some things...however, I will say that I find in scripture that His rhema is absolutely vital, but that His logos is also "forever settled in heaven" (Psalm 118?). I just believe it's both, and that without either, any of us are more susceptible to deceit..to receive it, and then most likely teach it one way or another. I believe the Holy Spirit reveals to us what's in the logos, and conversely, the logos will reinforce what the Holy Spirit reveals.
Don't want to argue, responding to your comments and clarifying my POV. Take care.
:cloud9: It was suggested this post might go better here, and after reading it, I decided to post it here. I didn't write it, but it sure blessed me........Blessings........
OK lets pose the question "what is truth"?
The Tanak (the so-called "Old Testament") tells us that the Torah is
"truth" (Ps. 119:142, 151)
But Yochanan (John) tells us that Messiah is "truth" (Jn. 14:6)
In fact Yochanan (John) tells us that the Messiah is "the Way, the
Truth and the Life" (Jn. 14:6)
But the Tanak tells us that the Torah is "the Way" (Deut. 9:12;
11:22-23; 30:15-16) "the Truth" (Ps. 119:142, 151) and the "Life"
(Deut. 32:46-47)
Yochanan tells us that the Messiah is "the Light" (Jn. 1:4-5, 9; 3:19;
8:12; 9:5; 12:35-36, 46; 14:6).
The Tanak tells us that the Torah is the "Light" (Prov. 6:23; Ps.
119:105; Is. 8:20; 51:4)
Yochanan tells us that Messiah is "the Word" (Jn. 1:1-13, 14-18; Rev.
19:13)
But the Tanak tells us that the Torah is "the Word" (Is. 1:10; 2:3)
Let us now look at Romans 10:4. This is a passage which is so
misunderstood. It appears in the KJV to say that "Christ is the end of
the law". The Aramaic word used for "end" here is SAKA. Back in 1893
when James Murdock S.T.D. (A Christian) translated the Aramaic
Pecrapta into English for the first time, he translated this word as
"aim". He noted the original Aramaic word in the margin and further
defined it "end, scope, summary". This Aramaic word is used in the
Rabbinic literature to mean "number" "sum" or "total". In the
Babylonian Talmud this word is used as follows "...the SUM of pupils for
a teacher in the primary class is twenty five" (b.Bat. 21a) The root
verb for this Aramaic noun means "to calculate, count, sum up" or "to
look out for, to hope for".
With this Aramaic word, Paul is saying, not that the Messiah is the
TERMINATION of the Torah, but that Messiah is the aim, goal, scope,
summary, number, total and sum of the Torah! Paul is saying that the
Messiah is the Torah. Messiah is the SUM of the Torah.
Rom 10:5 then continues with:
"For Moses thus wrote of the righteousness that is by the Torah that
`he who does these will live by them.'(Lev. 18:5)"
Remember now, Paul has just said that the Messiah is the sum of the
Torah, and now he is quoting the Torah to prove that "life" comes from
the Torah.
Then in Rom. 10:6-8 Paul continues:
"And of the righteousness that is by trust, he thus says: `Do not say
in your heart: who has ascended to heaven' (Deut. 30:12) and brought
down the Messiah? `And who has descended' to the depth of She'ol `and
brought up' (Deut. 13:13) the Messiah from among the dead? But what
does it say? `The answer is near to you, to your mouth and to your
heart,' (Deut. 30:14) which is the word of trust that we proclaim"
Now Christian commentators have taken Paul to be contrasting "the
righteousness that is by the Torah" (Rom. 10:5) with "the
righteousness that is by faith" (Rom. 10:6) to prove that Messiah is
the "end"/"termination" of the Law as stated in Rom. 10:4.
There are several problems with this interpretation.
To begin with, we have already shown that Paul's point in Rom. 10:4 is
not that Messiah is the termination of the law, but that Messiah is
the goal and sum of the Torah.
Secondly Rom. 10:5 and Rom 10:6f both quote passages from the Torah to
prove their points.
Thirdly, these commentators totally mangle the point Paul is making in
Rom. 10:6-8.
When Paul was teaching the Bereans in Acts 17, we are told that they
checked "the Scriptures" to see if what Paul said could be found
there, and Paul said they were more noble than others he had taught
for doing this. Now the only Scriptures they had at the time were
those of the Tanak ("Old Testament") so Paul would look to the
passages he cites from the Tanak to see that we are applying his words
accurately as they are in the Tanak.
So lets be good Bereans and look at the portion of Torah Paul actually
quotes in Rom. 10:6-8, see what it actually says in context, and see
how Paul is using it. Paul is quoting from Deut. 30:12-14. To get some
context we will begin in verse 9 and take the quote through verse 16:
9 And YHWH your Elohim will make you over-abundant in all the work of
your hand, in the fruit of your body, and in the fruit of your cattle,
and in the fruit of your land, for good; for YHWH will again rejoice
over you for good, as He rejoiced over your fathers, 10 If you shall
hearken to the voice of YHWH your Elohim, to keep His commandments and
His statutes which are written in this Book of the Torah; if you turn
unto HYWH your Elohim with all your heart, and with all your soul.
11 For this commandment which I command you this day, it is not too
hard for you, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that you should say: `Who shall go up for us
to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may
do it?'
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should says: `Who shall go
over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it,
that we may do it?'
14 But the word if very near unto you, in your mouth, and in your
heart, that you may do it.
15 See, I have set before you this day life and good, and death and evil,
16 In that I command you this day to love YHWH your Elohim, to walk in
His ways, and to keep His commandments and His statues and His
ordinances; then you shall live and multiply, and YHWH your Elohim
shall bless you in the land where you go in to possess it.
(Deut. 30:9-16)
Now the first and most important point is that in Deut. 30:12-13 it is
the Torah that we do not have to have brought down to us, but in
Paul's citations in Rom. 10:6-7 it is the "Messiah" who does not have
to be brought down to us. Paul is applying his logic that Messiah is
the sum of the Torah from Rom. 10:4 (thus reaffirming that we are
correct in our understanding of SAKA in Rom. 10:4).
Moreover, when Paul says "the answer is near to you, to your mouth,
and to your heart, which is the word of trust that we proclaim" (Rom.
10:8) Deut. Says "But the WORD is very near unto you, in your mouth
and in your heart, that you may do it" (Deut. 30:14). So the "answer"
and the "word of trust/faith" in Rom. 10:8 is the "word" in Deut.
30:14, but in Deut. 30:14 that "word" is CLEARLY the Torah! In other
words Rom. 10:8 might be understood "the TORAH is near to you, to your
mouth, and to your heart, which is the TORAH of trust/faith that we
proclaim".
Fourth, we find that Deut. 30:15-16 parallel the meaning of Lev. 18:5
so that we can see that Paul is citing these two passages together,
not because he is contrasting them, but because they teach the same thing!
Finally if we look back to Rom. 10:6 which is quoting Deut. 30:12 and
we look closely at the phrase Paul quotes "who shall go up for us to
heaven" in the original Hebrew of Deut. 30:12, and if we take the
first letter of each word to from a new word (this is a technique
known as "Notarikon") then we spell the Hebrew word MILAH (which can
mean "word" or "circumcision") and if we take the last letter of each
word we find the name YHWH, so hidden and imbedded in this Hebrew
phrase is the phrase "Word of YHWH". Paul's point is that both the
Messiah and the Torah are the "Word of YHWH".
This is wonderful and confirms what the Spirit has revealed to me about the logos. Again, we often do an "either/or" with this, but that's what's been revealed to me...they can't be separated, they co-exist, they are...Jesus isn't somehow separated from the logos, nor does the Spirit reveal things against the logos...they are all "of the breath of God"...God's blessing.
Quote from: Molly on April 20, 2008, 06:35:31 AM
Everyone lies all day long, to themselves and others, for starters.
EVERYONE lies all day long, to themselves and others?
Everyone? So, are you would have to be including yourself in that as well, correct?
I assume you are excluding yourself from the "everyone."
My point is, "everyone" is too much of a blanket statement, obviously.
Quote from: captamajora on April 22, 2008, 02:52:49 AM
Quote from: Molly on April 20, 2008, 06:35:31 AM
Everyone lies all day long, to themselves and others, for starters.
EVERYONE lies all day long, to themselves and others?
Everyone? So, are you would have to be including yourself in that as well, correct?
I assume you are excluding yourself from the "everyone."
My point is, "everyone" is too much of a blanket statement, obviously.
Satan has obviously deceived the world into thinking it's ok to lie. The stats on lying are pretty well known.
Here's some samples from googling--
Resumes--as many as 80 percent can be misleading, as many as 60 percent have inconsistencies, as many as 30 percent have outright lies about education, experience, etc.
Marriages--40 percent of men and 20 percent of women have cheated by age 45.
"According to Dr. Michael Lewis of the Robert Wood Johnson Medical
School in New Jersey,
"In a single day, most people lie a minimum of
25 times." It's very hard to tell when someone is lying," says
Feldman. He says some indicators of deception, like facial and body
language, could merely be signs of anxiety or nervousness that have
nothing to do with lying."
"Seven in 10 students
[70 percent] surveyed admitted cheating on a test at least
once in the past year, and nearly half said they had done so more than
once, according to the nonprofit Joseph & Edna Josephson Institute of
Ethics. The "Report Card on the Ethics of American Youth" found that
92 percent of the 8,600 students surveyed lied to their parents in the
past year. Seventy-eight percent said they had lied to a teacher, and
more than one in four said they would lie to get a job."
etc.
To tell if you are lying to yourself takes constant vigilance and awareness. It's hard work.
But, I'm wondering--what would it be like if everyone suddenly told the truth all the time?
What if everything was completely transparent? What if the media told the truth?
What if everyone paid attention to the truth?
How would our world change overnight?
Molly,
I still haven't received your answer...
You said: "EVERYONE lies all day long, to themselves and others."
Are you including yourself in this?
Quote from: captamajora on April 22, 2008, 07:58:58 AM
Molly,
I still haven't received your answer...
You said: "EVERYONE lies all day long, to themselves and others."
Are you including yourself in this?
I very rarely directly lie to others, but I do lie to myself--in that I often don't really want to know the truth about a given situation--relationships, world affairs, history, or politics or whatever. The truth can often be very disturbing. There are many ways to lie--to others, to yourself, by omission, by commission, by aggressive ignorance (head in the sand), by secrecy, by laziness or selfishness, and so forth. So I personally now work very hard to see as much of the truth as possible in all situations--but it's hard work, it doesn't come naturally. It's amazing how much truth is hidden out there in the world. I also rarely tell people how much I know about a given subject, because others don't want the truth, either--so that's probably a type of lie. I go along to get along too much.
What about you? Do you ever tell a lie to yourself or others?
The bible says satan deceives the whole world.
How about you answer my question? How would the world change if everyone told the truth all the time?
Perhaps you've heard this . . .
"Everybody lies; but, it doesn't matter since nobody listens!"
[quote :or=captamajora link=topic=2522.msg26025#msg26025 date=1208660507]
I personally see the mass deception of humanity to be operating through the institution of religion. I see the greatest deception to the "followers" of Christ coming from the established church, through the many lies of orthodoxy. The more subtle the deception- the more pernitious. The greatest subtlety, in this case, being the source and vehicle of such deception...The CHURCH.
"For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many" Matthew 24:5
People assume that Jesus is talking about people that will come and claim themselves as the Christ. Look closely at what He says here. He says that they will come "in My Name." What is the name of the group that uses the Name of Christ? Christians!
I see Him saying: "People will indeed affirm Me as the Christ (with their mouth) but they will deceive many with their doctrines.
They will deceive with their doctrines of hell, the "conditionality" of God's Love, misinterpretations of "wrath", etc, etc...
"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers,
transforming themselves into apostles of Christ."
Once again, the deceivers fashion themselves into "apostles of Christ." They cite Christ's name but preach terribly destructive lies from their pulpits.
"...Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves
into ministers of righteousness..."
:thumbsup:(2 Corinthians 11:14-15)
The deception doesn't come dressed in a red suit carrying a pitchfork! It comes dressed in a pinstripe suit (tie-clip and all), carrying a bible.
The bible desribes a deception that will basically fool all of the followers of Christ. Christians are convinced that it is the "new-age" movement is the deception, but if so, it wouldn't be a good one because Christians have already identified it as the deception and vehemently shun any shadow of its teachings. ( I am not saying that these beliefs aren't deceptive, but I believe there to be a more insidious deception being spoken of the bible, a deception from "within.")
Quote from: jabcat on April 19, 2008, 05:52:31 AM
..."wolves in sheep's clothing"...
Aren't "sheep" followers of Christ? Wouldn't "sheep's clothing" then be the "appearance" of a follower of Christ (ie., a pastor, minister, etc)?
Wouldn't the "wolf" be the twisted teachings that devour those that are indoctrinated, utterly destroying their peace and comfort?
So when you have nefarious anti-Christian teachings being promulgated through the insitution of Christainity by self-professed "followers" of Christ, you have "wolves in sheep's clothing."
The pervasive, wide-scale deception of Christ's followers doesn't come from an "enlightened" guru, the new-ager, the entranced shaman, or anyone esle that is ostensibly "incongruant" with established orthodox Christianity. It comes from your local Christian church, from the pastor who carries his bible, and the priest who wears a crucifix. It comes from those using the Name of Christ, those that "teach" Christ, etc.
This insidious deception has has been absolutely BRILLIANT!
Quote from: Molly on April 19, 2008, 02:17:54 PM
That means every one of us has been, is, or will be---deceived.
This is why most everyone has that has any history of Christianity have fallen prey for these blatant lies. What could be a better mode of disseminating lies about Christ but through Christianity.
If anyone is still waiting with baited breath for the deception, well...it's here.
[/quote]
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I see this from much the same viewpoint as you have posted above captamajora,
This is true, how else can Satan transform into an angel of light except through the very organized religious institutions that are preaching all these various doctrines of men as the way to God? Jesus Christ alone
is the way, not the Pope, not church leaders, not organized churches who preach, even though subtly another gospel, even Poliicians in the secular realm do this and get followers to trust in their doctrines, all figures weather religious or political who are exalted up to idol-hood have fiollowers who believe that these human beings are the way or are showing the way, when one of these Idols falls then all who followed their leadings are crushed and many fall into dispare, when they preach these fallable doctrines this all falls under another gospel ( and there are and have been many another gospels at large in the world) than what was preached and taught by Jesus Christ.
In his absence we are not left orphaned because he has sent his spirit and the grace of God has appeared bringing salvation to ALL men, the religious institutions want control and authority over others to varied degrees and don't want to loose their exhalted place in this world, it keeps many in bondage to the doctrines and leadings of men weather of religious, political or secular institutions.
Personally I would want no man to follow me because sooner or later I would only let them down, I am human just as they are, an equal, no less, no more, I am not after fame, notoriety, followers, money or power in this world.
Peace,
Fire Walker
2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
--2 Timothy 4
Revelation 22:15
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Again, interesting thoughts...firewalker and Cap, you seem to be identifying institutionalized religion, orthodoxy..."inside the camp". Molly, not that you disagree with that necessarily, but it seems to me that you're also pointing to "outside the camp"..which reminds me of Paul saying they "crept in unawares"...brings to mind the scripture about "if the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness"...maybe many times, from within or without, we don't even realize we are deceivers, because we ouselves may be deceived. One may think they're sharing light, when in fact the darkness inside only appears to be light, so one can't tell the difference...because the "eye" or view/perspective is distorted.
Is this an either/or proposition, or again, maybe not always so easy to recognize because the deceit could come from "outside the camp", but could also come from "me/us inside the camp" if we're not always seeking sound doctrine as Molly's scripture stated? I know personally I've shared things with folks before, that later I realized probably wasn't accurate. So really, even without intending to, I would guess I played the role of deceiver and propogated unsound doctrine :sorry:. Again, not to live in constant fear of this (unless God's specifically convicting us of our own error and we need to set up and take notice), but to be aware, making sure our doctrine has a sound scriptural basis (accurately translated, properly divided, Spirit revealed), not just "what I think"...because IMO and to me personally, the millstone thing is no joke. We are clearly told to be on guard...must be good reasons for that...I know I have to be careful because I can imagine all kinds of stuff :fool:..then I'm convicted once again to take it to Father and the logos and be corrected...James.
John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
The light is come into the world but men loved the darkness. They are the lovers of the lie.
This is so hard to acknowledge. What is evil? Yes, it can often be some huge dark thing,--millions murdered--- but, more often than not it is the day to day lie that people tell and that people accept.
If we acknowledge the truth, we will have to do something about it, we will have to speak it, we will have to accept the consequences. People who tell the truth all the time are hated, scorned, ridiculed, spat at, shunned, fired, imprisoned, and killed. Yes, it is that dramatic. Look what happened to Jesus. And, who is doing this to them? Those who love the lie and the darkness.
This is not just a matter of religion. This goes very deep into the society and into the heart of man. The Pharisees were not just teaching wrong doctrine, they were running a society which cheated people, which stole from the widow, which dealt harshly with the pauper, which wrongly accused innocent people, which repressed and controlled everyone. They did this with lies. They were so far gone in their own darkness that they didn't recognize God when he was standing right in front of them. So it is the same with every society.
What would happen if starting tomorrow everyone told the truth all the time? No one will answer me.
17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
--Rev 3
"eye salve"
G2854
κολλούριον
kollourion
kol-loo'-ree-on
Neuter of a presumed derivative of κολλύρα kollura (a cake; probably akin to the base of G2853); properly a poultice (as made of or in the form of crackers), that is, (by analogy) a plaster: - eyesalve.
G2853
κολλάω
kollaō
kol-lah'-o
From κόλλα kolla ("glue"); to glue, that is, (passively or reflexively) to stick (figuratively): - cleave, join (self), keep company.
Hi Molly...I thought that particular question was directly to Cap, but I'll take a spin at it since I guess I'm in the "no one" group :wink:. My thought is that we would probably initially have severe upheaval because it would be such a shock to all the individual, group, and societal systems. As I think about it, that is probably actually a pretty interesting question, because a) I doubt we're really capable of such in this age, b) we may end up with more killing/murder than we have now because often the truth is hard to bear, it cuts and separates, c) connected to 'a', until we are truly in the literal, physical reign of God, i.e., when He's all in all, we will continue to deal with sin...at that time we will then be in a perfect society. Now, my actual, rubber-hits-the-road answer to your question......"I'm not sure".. :thinking:. It would be great if could happen and we could handle it, but I imagine that's why we're warned about being on guard for and refuting deceit...because we'll live with it "until then"...
Thanks, Jab. I agree. It would be a great upheaval. If everyone from the President to the street sweeper started telling the truth, it would be like a huge earthquake shaking society to its roots. Murderers would have to confess murder, Judges would have to confess bribes, husbands and wives would have to confess cheating, bankers would have to confess usury, shop keepers would have to confess selling faulty products, the rich would have to confess greed, the poor would have to confess addiction, government officials would have to confess hidden agendas---there would be no end to it.
How can we even live in this sick world? That's what I wonder.
Satan opens the eyes of Adam and Eve, causing them to go blind. Jesus covers the eyes of the blind man so that he may see.
It is only through His eye that we can see rightly.
John 9:6
When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,
Quote from: Molly on April 23, 2008, 02:27:58 AM
How can we even live in this sick world? That's what I wonder.
Because we know the truth about the Being who created us. We know the truth (or at least the MAIN truth about our Creator.... That He is LOVE.) and that all love-starved people in this world (everyone who is a cheater, liar, murderer, addict, greedy jealous, etc... everyone all has the same illness... LACK OF LOVE.)
I say instead of wondering what the world would be like if everyone told the truth, we should be wondering if the whole world was able to truly LOVE and BE LOVED.
The following is just a general statement and not directed to anyone in particular: :HeartThrob:
We can live in this "sick" (yes it is a "sick" world because we all suffer the same affliction, it only manifests in different ways in each of us. Our affliction is lack of PURE, true LOVE. Love beyond what we could ever even IMAGINE... THAT kind of love. We will one day behold LOVE (God) in all it's glory. We see glimpses, but they are mere GLIMPSES compared to what awaits us all. Our affliction (lack of love) manifests different in each human being. Some of us have fear and lots of it, some are jealous of others...(I fall into this myself, feeling insecure around others sometimes), addictions, shopping, workaholics, alcoholics, drug addicts, "Church" people who sometimes worry too much about being knowledgable and booksmart, people who are bitter, sad, those who numb their minds with extreme addictions to television and video games and porn, and those addicted to making their exterior shells more and more acceptable with tons of plastic surgery and procedures to hopefully attract more love... The list goes on and on and on and on....
Yes, we all suffer the same illness. Even those of us who know the glorious truth about our loving Creator. But those who don't know this truth suffer the most, I dare say. So for every person you see, always look past everything and only see the vast hole in their heart, the yearning that person has for LOVE. No matter how dirty, disshelved, harsh, rude, proud a person appears on the outside... we ALL have the same yearning in our heart. This is how we need to see each other. ONLY by looking at the yearning.... that little hole in each of our hearts.
Let's learn to be more gentle with each other because of this.
But let us also rejoice for this "sick ailing" world has a cure...
MY GOD! How wonderful to know...
GOD is the cure.
Some will be partially cured while they are here.
Some won't be cured at all until they reach the other side and fall into His wonderful arms!
(and yes, MY image of God.. He does have arms!!! And dangit! He is going to hug us all!) :HeartThrob:
Love you all so much.
Have a happy night,
love,
sparrow
P.S. Molly, I think this verse is especially for you:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a
crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but
unto all them also that love his appearing.God bless you, Molly...
We'll all be ok.
I know it's hard to live here in this world..
I feel your pain.
Just keep looking at people's yearning...
their yearning for God. (They might not recognize it as a yearning for God...and even atheists will vehemently disagree with you, however... we do TRULY know that ALL yearn for God. ALL DO. This is something that we've all here, been allowed to see. Some just don't realize WHY they are ailing. Some just don't realize it. But one day they will. And God will fill them with so much love... oh my! It will be something to behold.)
All of creation groans....
ALL of creation..
not just the humans.
all creatures.
every living thing...
we're all in this together.
and we're all in for something unbelievable on the horizon.. :HeartThrob: