Anger is Lord of???

[donken]

Hi.  We read in James 1:20 that the wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God.

Envy, jealousy, greed, hate, lack of forgiveness to others, possessiveness passing as love, desire to get own way, addictions of the flesh, and so on ALL turn to anger when they are not getting their own way IN US.  And the anger then does the works of affliction, war, torture, death.  When these things are being satisfied or getting what they want they still exist but are at ease until aroused by resistance to their will.Jas 3:10  Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
Jas 3:11  Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
Jas 3:12  Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
                                   {Can both anger and love, violence and peace, come out of the one source, GOD.  No}

Here is what James also said about wisdom, both the wisdom from above and the wisdom from below.

The wisdom from below, meaning of the spirit of the world only, agrees with the truth about what ANGER rules over when some desires are thwarted.

Jas 3:13  Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
Jas 3:14  But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
Jas 3:15  This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
Jas 3:16  For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and **every** evil work.

See if the explanation of this scripture about the wisdom that is from ABOVE, meaning of course God.  The FRUIT or RESULT of righteousness is that and those which MAKE PEACE and righteousness is SOWN IN PEACE.   No anger acts allowed.  So, is GOD righteous, and is the result of righteousness PEACE forever.  YES.

Jas 3:17  But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Jas 3:18  And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

I read the scripture below with the mind that remembers God is righteous ALL THE TIME.

Isa 32:15  Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.
Isa 32:16  Then judgment shall dwell in the wilderness, and righteousness remain in the fruitful field.
Isa 32:17  And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
Isa 32:18  And my people shall dwell in a peaceable habitation, and in sure dwellings, and in quiet resting places;

Isaiah 32:16 tells us the work or result of righteousness IS PEACE.  The effect of righteousness IS quietness and assurance FOREVER.  That is also like GOD is.

Jesus did NO VIOLENCE.  {ie.. righteousness is sown IN peace of them that MAKE PEACE}. 
Isa 53:9  And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Noi deceit.  So when Jesus said we have heard it said an eye for an eye, taught sincerely and done physically by Moses and the prophets and all Israel, and then Jesus said, "BUT" I say unto you\us, we resist not evil.

So what is the evil we are not resisting if we do eye for eye in a manner of physical vengeance as man understands those words.  It is OUR OWN EVIL in us.  IF we give in to and believe eye for eye in a physically applied vengeance and manner of getting even, we are falling prey to the temptation in us to do evil to another ... .and even think we are going good and right.     Jesus did no violence.

If anyone of us can believe this, ask God to let you see the scripture this way.  But... if you do not really believe it and ask as a test, I do not know if God will show it yet.  By our faith we will have done to us as we do "to God" in our thoughts, faith, and spirit.   Our own ways will be given to us, showed to us, and we will eventually reap them as the promises of God in LIFE eternal.

1Co_15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co_15:54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The little kepi of the Jewish faith is the symbol of their true head being "covered" or hidden from them in what they believe at that time.  So is it with us, as we can and do have a "spiritual" covering that causes us to not be able to see our true "head", Jesus Christ.

Do you not believe that those who do not know what they are doing right now are STILL FORGIVEN and thus, not dealt with and that the evil that happens to them and the same evil happens to all, even Christians, is therefore NOT DONE BY GOD.  Ie... they are forgiven.  No accusation, no blame, just like when a human baby does something immature.   God is looking for a people to establish mercy, knowledge, and dominion IN, to GIVE THEM THE RULE they do not presently have.  Doing evil as a belief of how a ruler acts is ENMITY WITH GOD.

God bless, donken

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: And again, if you read my explanation of what God's peace IS, you can see that peace and even anger, can and do co-exist in God, and even in a man doing God's will. Still eating of the wrong tree, of which GOOD is a part of.

Jesus even said, why callest thou me good, there is NONE GOOD but the Father. Why? Because God is the only one with a pure motive, who can use evil to do good. It's all about the motive of the heart, not about the actions. You cannot look at anything and declare it good or evil ACCURATELY, APART from being told the MOTIVE God had in doing it.

Let me give you an example. You give someone a leather coat on a night it's going to dip down in the 40's because they have none. It looks like a good thing to do, because they were in lack. Then you find out that the lack is because they just sold their other coat to buy drugs, and they will also sell the one you just gave them for same.

Now it looks like you blessed them, but in fact, you just gave them a coat to sell to purchase the round of drugs thats going to kill them. It looked like a blessing, you meant well, but had you listened to the SPIRIT of God, He might have told you to offer them shelter from the cold, and minister deliverance to them instead, thereby sparing their life. He might even have told you not to do anything at all (which looks "bad"), because He has someone coming by next that will do what you cannot.

This is called a sin of ASSUMPTION, and we've all done them, the serpent is more SUBTLE than the all the other beasts of the field. We assume, BECAUSE WE'RE JUDGING BY WHAT WE SEE OR KNOW FROM THE NATURAL REALM, AND THAT INCLUDES THE LETTER UNDERSTANDING, what to think and what to do.

This is why it says those that are led by the SPIRIT, are the sons of God. I can do "good" all the day long in my own eyes, or the eyes of others, but if the Spirit is not telling me what to do and when, it's just as easily SIN and I don't know it. This is why without the mind of Christ in full operation, we have NO CHANCE of coming into perfection. The mind of Christ is the END of works without faith (realm of Spirit, the unseen) which is also dead, or death producing. My  :2c:..... Blessings....

[Seth]

{Can both anger and love, violence and peace, come out of the one source, GOD.  No}

Hi Ken,
I read your whole post, but only quoted this because I believe it to be your main point. Don't take the small quote to mean that I didn't read everything.

Can violence "come out of God?" Well, that is a bit of ambiguous statement "come out of." If the question is, "did God cause violence," then I would have to say yes. In Joshua 11 we read that God hardened the hearts of Israel's enemy to attack Israel, and in 1 Samuel 18, we read that an "evil spirit from the Lord" came upon Saul and that Saul attacked David.

I can approach those scriptures in several ways.

1) I can declare those scriptures were Israel's justifications for war (as I believe you have done), rendering scripture untruthful as the Lord did not actually harden the hearts or send evil spirits.

2) Or, I can admit that those scriptures are entirely truthful, that God DID harden Israel's enemy's heart, and that the evil spirit which came up on Saul really was from the Lord. Then, at that point, if my own viewpoint contradicts those scriptures, I must challenge my own viewpoint to allow ALL scripture to be true.

[josh]

methinks
tis best sourced by putting on another basis
namely

Jas 3:1  My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
Jas 3:2  For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
Jas 3:3  Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
Jas 3:4  Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.
Jas 3:5  Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
Jas 3:6  And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
Jas 3:7  For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
Jas 3:8  But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
Jas 3:9  Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
Jas 3:10  Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
Jas 3:11  Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
Jas 3:12  Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
Jas 3:13  Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
Jas 3:14  But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
Jas 3:15  This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
Jas 3:16  For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
Jas 3:17  But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Jas 3:18  And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

THE QUESTION THEN BECOMES WHAT SCRIPTURE MIGHT EXPLAIN HOW WHAT GOD DOES
WHERE IT SEEMS STRANGE TO THE HUMAN MIND
English translation of the Septuagint by Sir Lancelot Charles Lee Brenton (1807-1862) originally published in 1851.

Isa 28:21  The Lord shall rise up as a mountain of ungodly men, and shall be in the valley of Gabaon; he shall perform his works with wrath, even a work of bitterness, and his wrath shall deal strangely, and his destruction shall be strange.
Isa 28:22  Therefore do not ye rejoice, neither let your bands be made strong; for I have heard of works finished and cut short by the Lord of hosts, which he will execute upon all the earth.
Isa 28:23  Hearken, and hear my voice; attend, and hear my words.
Isa 28:24  Will the ploughman plough all the day? or will he prepare the seed beforehand, before he tills the ground?
Isa 28:25  Does he not, when he has levelled the surface thereof, then sow the small black poppy, or cumin, and afterward sow wheat, and barley, and millet, and bread-corn in thy borders?
Isa 28:26  So thou shalt be chastened by the judgment of thy God, and shalt rejoice.

ANOTHER PASSAGE TO PONDER ON THIS CONCERN
Pro 25:2  It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
Pro 25:3  The heaven for height, and the earth for depth, and the heart of kings is unsearchable.
Pro 25:4  Take away the dross from the silver, and there shall come forth a vessel for the finer.
Pro 25:5  Take away the wicked from before the king, and his throne shall be established in righteousness.
Pro 25:6  Put not forth thyself in the presence of the king, and stand not in the place of great men:
Pro 25:7  For better it is that it be said unto thee, Come up hither; than that thou shouldest be put lower in the presence of the prince whom thine eyes have seen.
Pro 25:8  Go not forth hastily to strive, lest thou know not what to do in the end thereof, when thy neighbour hath put thee to shame.
Pro 25:9  Debate thy cause with thy neighbour himself; and discover not a secret to another:
Pro 25:10  Lest he that heareth it put thee to shame, and thine infamy turn not away.

[lomarah]

:cloud9: And again, if you read my explanation of what God's peace IS, you can see that peace and even anger, can and do co-exist in God, and even in a man doing God's will. Still eating of the wrong tree, of which GOOD is a part of.

Jesus even said, why callest thou me good, there is NONE GOOD but the Father. Why? Because God is the only one with a pure motive, who can use evil to do good. It's all about the motive of the heart, not about the actions. You cannot look at anything and declare it good or evil ACCURATELY, APART from being told the MOTIVE God had in doing it.

Let me give you an example. You give someone a leather coat on a night it's going to dip down in the 40's because they have none. It looks like a good thing to do, because they were in lack. Then you find out that the lack is because they just sold their other coat to buy drugs, and they will also sell the one you just gave them for same.

Now it looks like you blessed them, but in fact, you just gave them a coat to sell to purchase the round of drugs thats going to kill them. It looked like a blessing, you meant well, but had you listened to the SPIRIT of God, He might have told you to offer them shelter from the cold, and minister deliverance to them instead, thereby sparing their life. He might even have told you not to do anything at all (which looks "bad"), because He has someone coming by next that will do what you cannot.

This is called a sin of ASSUMPTION, and we've all done them, the serpent is more SUBTLE than the all the other beasts of the field. We assume, BECAUSE WE'RE JUDGING BY WHAT WE SEE OR KNOW FROM THE NATURAL REALM, AND THAT INCLUDES THE LETTER UNDERSTANDING, what to think and what to do.

This is why it says those that are led by the SPIRIT, are the sons of God. I can do "good" all the day long in my own eyes, or the eyes of others, but if the Spirit is not telling me what to do and when, it's just as easily SIN and I don't know it. This is why without the mind of Christ in full operation, we have NO CHANCE of coming into perfection. The mind of Christ is the END of works without faith (realm of Spirit, the unseen) which is also dead, or death producing. My  :2c:..... Blessings....

Yes, yes, yes, yes, AMEN!

[Seth]

Yeah that's spot on, Cardinal. Amen  :thumbsup:

[donken]

Hello,   
Isa_41:23  Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.
Rom_3:8  And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

I realize that you are all sincere in your belief about God and believe you are protecting why God must or does do evil yet is good, but you are really in the same mistake pictured  as Eve's error and why she was not able to remain in paradise.  You are all protecting and supporting the spirit of the devil.   We just can not have God and "the devil" doing the same works or we would never know who or what is doing what.   

If God does do evil, even that good may come, what was wrong with Eve's understanding and with giving her fruit to "the man".  Of course, the story is only a parable.   So eve thought dong both good and evil were what God was like.  So, what is different about that than what you are all supporting here?

donken

[Seth]

I am not sure why you quoted Isaiah 41, since that is an example of God mocking false Gods through sarcasm. The irony of your providing this quote is that it is identifying all the traits of God and asking whether a false god can do them.

Isaiah 41
"Present your case," the Lord says. "Bring forward your strong arguments," The King of Jacob says. 22 Let them bring forth and declare to us what is going to take place; As for the former events, declare what they were (God does this), That we may consider them and know their outcome. Or announce to us what is coming (God does this); 23 Declare the things that are going to come afterward, That we may know that you are gods; Indeed, do good or evil, that we may anxiously look about us and fear together (God makes peace and creates evil). 24 Behold, you are of [h]no account, And your work amounts to nothing; He who chooses you is an abomination.

See the pattern? He's telling the dead idol gods to produce works similar to God himself to prove their worth as gods, but they can't because there is no other God but one, a God who both kills and makes alive, who both wounds and heals.

You cannot accept that God does those things though the Bible says he does. Your solution is to place doubt on the OT scriptures as being an infallible testament to God's character. Your solution is to throw shade onto the scriptures and you hold that up as an example of stepping out in faith that you believe in a God that fits your definitions.

WE are not to do evil that good may come. We are not God either. God could have created a perfect world, where nobody sins. The only explanation as to why he didn't - excepting that God creates evil - is that evil crept in outside of his power and knowledge. That makes God weak and limited in knowledge. Evil is of use to God to SET IN CONTRAST to his elect, which is why he appointed some to MURDER Jesus Christ, and others to receive his Spirit to reveal the patience of Christ through the saints.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ donken..... How is it different? It's different because the Lord God IS God. The clay cannot tell the potter what to do, how to do it, or when to do it, or question His motive IN doing it.

And Romans 3:8 is talking about using grace to do evil. In other words, some said that since the Lord forgives all, let's all just do what we want, and claim grace covered it. The motive of their heart was wrong, and it got exposed. THIS is not THAT.

And you CAN KNOW who or what is doing what. That is what the Spirit of God does, that you have relegated and entrusted to your carnal mind. The Spirit of God is the One who divides asunder soul from spirit, and in so doing reveals the motive of the heart that did x,y,z.

What you are doing IS what Eve did, ie. trusting her carnal mind and her senses, to determine what is good and what will make her like God, according to what she SEES.

Had she listened to the Spirit, the correct answer to the temptation would have been to repeat what God said, and perhaps point out that she was already in made in the image of God.

Satan always adds to or takes away (snake side to side movement instead of upright Christ) from the Word that is breath or Spirit, because any deviation from the plumb line corrupts the word that was spoken, and if we fall for the deviation, instead of raising up another "part" of Christ to become life and covering for us, "He" just stays in the grave of the body He was buried in (us). Blessings....

[donken]

Hi.  Isaiah 41 says do evil or do good and we are dismayed and WILL SEE BOTH.   And, tell of things that are to come.  So, what exists when "you are in heaven", let me ask.  Is there anger there, hate, greed, envy, jealousy, etc?  Is it of the eternal spirit and existence.  Is it ever seen there.  I think you may say yes.

Murder is one of the lusts of the flesh.  Murder is to do something that causes someone to lose their life and do it on purpose and knowing what you are doing.

**IF** God ever purposely caused anyone to die either by directing it to happen at the hand or work of another or did it of his own will and action, his own spirit, it would always be murder.    A person can not die or even be hurt without one who knows everything in advance doing it by accident.    When we think God does or even directs both good and evil upon one we are dismayed and WILL see both, in scripture and in and upon our own life so we may see that doing and experiencing evil is not "good" only.

And, Israel's problem was that they also believed all the scripture was about what God was like and they wanted to see Jesus do evil on what the people of Israel considered their enemies, {Rome etc.} by physical violence against their enemies.   Just like man does today.   They wanted God to act like a man, like they believed, believing that God would be good to them only and do evil to other PEOPLE.

Jesus shows us how God works to get rid of evil.  God CHANGES a person's personality, WITHIN.  God bypasses the flesh entirely works on and through the spirit of nature within us all.  We are all born with the carnal nature in us and that nature becomes our natural base of understanding everything.

Do we not make God like the world is right now when we say God will do or direct evil against some but not against us "if" we are a believer, etc.  We are blinded by the world and that is the veil we are showing to be still up in our lives when we are double minded about God.

To overcome the world we have to believe that God is and always is only one of the two choices we have from our experiences in the world.  Choose us this day.

Do we serve a double minded double spirited god or just an unchangeable God of ONE SPIRIT ONLY, life.   Words will never ever give one the ability of Jesus.  Doing all of Jesus' witness our selves will reveal which is which.

And, in reply to God can do anything idea.. God can not lie scripture says.    The clay is MARRED the scripture says.  That is the source of something in us that is not in God.  The law of sin in our members, the serpent and source of devilishness that Paul himself said was what caused him to do what he did not want to do at times.  In other words, the apostles were not FREE either.  Only Jesus is free and can make us free of be stronger than the lusts of the flesh so they can be kept bound.  Bind FIRST the tares is what we are told will happen when Jesus comes with the fullness of the Kingdom of God.  WE CAN DO IT TODAY.  That is all I am really saying.  The flood of the spirit is coming and we can build our ark now.  The ark being the body of Christ that will remain and exist above the waters.

How can God, who is not a respecter or persons apparently, do evil to some people and yet leave others who we know are doing some evil and selfish and greedy things {the rich and goverment types, etc., even though all people do some of the same evils} prosper still and be double minded himself, apparently, as to how he deals with man.   Or... is man in control, really?  Yes.  God said let THEM have dominion.  This does mean that they are allowed to do what they do without God causing any evil to them and this continues until Christians actually be maturely Christ like.    the idea that we are to be like Jesus who is like God and yet think God does different things than Jesus said or more things that Jesus witnessed, we are saying Jesus is not a complete witness of the father.


God bless, donken

[Seth]

Hi.  Isaiah 41 says do evil or do good and we are dismayed and WILL SEE BOTH.   

As I demonstrated, Isaiah 41 is asking false gods to prove their worth by doing things that God does. God DOES dismay people. He DOES wound. Here I will prove that to you:

Deut 32
39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

That's the exact point he is making in Isaiah 41. There is no other god that can do what he does.

So, what exists when "you are in heaven", let me ask.  Is there anger there, hate, greed, envy, jealousy, etc?  Is it of the eternal spirit and existence.  Is it ever seen there.  I think you may say yes.

Murder is one of the lusts of the flesh.  Murder is to do something that causes someone to lose their life and do it on purpose and knowing what you are doing.

Those things are of the EARTH, which God created. He not only created the POT, but also the clay by which to make the pot. He created BOTH the heavens and the earth.

**IF** God ever purposely caused anyone to die either by directing it to happen at the hand or work of another or did it of his own will and action, his own spirit, it would always be murder.

There is no "if." The scriptures show that he kills. Case closed. It would only be murder FOR YOU, according to the way YOU see it. I don't have to accept that, because it belongs to you, not God.

We are all born with the carnal nature in us and that nature becomes our natural base of understanding everything.

Like I said, GOD CREATES the earth as well as heaven. He created the dust. He created the mind. Nothing happened by accident.

To overcome the world we have to believe that God is and always is only one of the two choices we have from our experiences in the world.  Choose us this day.

You cannot prove what you say without having to doubt whether the scriptures of God commanding war were only a result of Israel's justification. Your solution is to cast doubt the scriptures which clearly state God's influence as a historic record.

[donken]

The scripture needs to be divided.  Rightly divided, the scripture itself says.

Jesus himself tells us that some of the things taught and DID by Moses and the prophets as ways of God, which they sincerely believed were like God is, were not what God is like. 

Jesus said, you have heard it said, BUT I say unto you....it is not like you think. {my take}.

So [mod edit -  declaring (post in the spirit of "as I understand"/"I believe")  something approaching personal insult]

Bless, Donken

[Seth]

Jesus himself tells us that some of the things taught and DID by Moses and the prophets as ways of God, which they sincerely believed were like God is, were not what God is like. 

Jesus said, you have heard it said, BUT I say unto you....it is not like you think. {my take}.

Jesus never said that "some of the things taught and DID by Moses and the prophets as ways of God, which they sincerely believed were like God is, were not what God is like," but you INFER it. "Your take" does not mean Jesus actually said that. Jesus changed the Law, but not to invalidate it. He changed it because it was weak through the flesh. The flesh is the reason Christ came to change it so that he could be the High Priest rather than fallible man. He did that to give them what they lacked, which was the Spirit, to change them from the inside out.

The fact that Christ changed the Law does not mean the Law was flawed in its intended purpose, or that God was not the author of its provisions. The purpose was to lead man to Christ through man's incapability to follow it, and create a desire for salvation from the carnal mind.

Why would the O.T. need to become OLD or the former testimony.

Because it served its purpose.

[donken]

Hello Seth.  You speak of the law being changed, and yet say that Jesus did not say it was not of God's spirit etc.  Jesus witnessed the father in him, and what he said HE DID and how he did it instead of doing it like Moses and the prophets and Israel believed it to be done, is abolishing the OLD WAY OF DOING IT because it is of men and the world and not of God's Spirit.'

IF we do not understand that, we are still going to be double minded in thinking we are to be like God yet God does things we are not to do, etc.  Jesus said that the way man does and understands many things are INCORRECT when the Spirit of God does them.  Ie... the wording is meant differently, by a different mind and method.  God establishes life by first abolishing all the ways of death that cause death, by establishing eternal life in the former dead one\thing.  Dead even though they were alive according to the world's idea of what being alive is like.

The PARABLE about Elisha following Elijah, is about Jesus coming AFTER the spirit of the law and the prophets, man's spirit.  John the baptist, the SPIRIT OF ELIJAH, has to be seen to be REMOVED in and over us, removed BY GOD ONLY, if we are to have a double portion.  Knowledge correctly discerned as to life and death, and never do both ways exist in one who has eternal life, like God does.

The problem arises because men, even nice Christian people, believe that God MUST DO EVIL TO MAN in the end to teach man to be good.  God says this is foolishness, the foolishness of man in the world.   GOOD teaches what good is, not evil.  Making one GOOD is what establishes GOODNESS.  If one does evil to try to make one do and be good, then the evil doer is deceiving the one having evil done to them about the difference between good and evil.

When one says that one DOES EVIL TO SOMEONE to teach them about evil, the one doing evil is also Dead because if one does evil for ANY REASON AT ALL, even if they think it is for good, then evil doing has power IN THE HEART AND MIND OF THAT PERSON and they will die by their own evil.  Jesus shows us that doing evil, even the scripture accounts of his death, KILL HIM.   IF we think the God he witnessed by doing no violence, etc, is going to be other than what Jesus witnessed, then we are following the belief of faithful Moses and the prophets and the old testament.  Christians who believe doing evil to someone teaches them to be good and what goood is like have lost the mind of Christ.

If we are to have a double portion as the story about Elisha and Elijah portrays, then we have to have GOD REMOVE the testimony of the law and the prophets from our understanding about God.  God is not a child and never ever was.  The child believes "his father" does evil, even for a good purpose.

The truth is, if we can be made to do evil to another for ANY REASON whatever, we are in the night still and evil has power to deceive us, live in us, and kill us be being stronger than we.  It is not stronger than God who is LIFE ONLY ALL THE TIME.

Why do we think that the promises of God, and of peace on earth and good will toward men at the coming of Jesus Christ in maturity, are finally fulfilled LAST?

Because they are eternal.
and change not.              We have to see the testimony of Moses and the prophets for what spirit it is of, activated and accomplished for us in us BY GOD, or we will remain as the son of the morning and not as the son of the Kingdom and the full light of day.
What is wrong with doing only Jesus' words and find out.   I understand that many reasons sit in the middle of that road saying, I can not.  So, later then.
The spirit of the old testament has to be beheaded, and a new head, Jesus Christ, established.  This is what the covering of the woman is, the old head\mind\nature.
donken

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ donken......and as always, my  :2c:.

And as I said in the earlier post, I can do good works according to my own eyes, all the day long, and will likely be in the "get away from Me, I never KNEW (to know intimately, as Adam knew his wife and they were one flesh) you," crowd.

Knowing Him is about being one with Him which is only possible via His Spirit. Only walking in the Spirit in the proceeding word of life fulfills the law. That's it. The law was spoken by God, and that is never ending. He spoke the law and it never stops speaking.

Jesus as the Spirit, spoke the law but He gave/gives it understanding so that it brings life instead of death to the hearer. As long as there is flesh to kill, we will hear it only in the way that it is needed, which is to kill the flesh. Our resurrection from that "death" is to hear the life of it released, so that what once condemned us, now raises us up!

But because He's God and He created us, He knew when He spoke it man couldn't fulfill it, apart from the Spirit teaching it. You can do nothing without Me. That's exactly why He did it. He literally created a pit to throw us in, knowing we couldn't get out of it by ourselves, so we would recognize our need for a savior to get us out of the pit (which He does on the SEVENTH DAY = which of you would not get your donkey/beast of burden out of a pit on the Sabbath?).

But because the flesh by nature LIKES the pit (sin satisfies for a season), He made sure we had a "motivational speaker" with us to encourage us via making things go from bad to worse, so we would call on someone, anyone, to get us out of the pit.

And we did call on lots of things to make the pit better for a season, like escapism through the flesh, via things like drugs, alcohol, denominational rules and regulations (threw up a few curtains to make the place homey), but no matter what we did, the pit was still a pit, and it had a very inhospitable guest in it with a flair for the dramatic, ie. he always brings down the house.   :LH:

Yes, just to make it interesting, He put a snake in the pit with us.  :eek: A talking snake. A snake that desperately wants to have us for dinner. Literally. So that we would be one with HIM, having been consumed. Finally, after a few close encounters of the truly scary kind, we decided we really wanted out of the pit and called on THE NAME, that got us out of the pit.

Problem is, we brought the blasted snake with us, because he'd already bit us and had a good hold on the fles-s-s-s-s-sh, and he's still hanging on our tree (FRAME/letter devoid of spiritual understanding/Christ's flesh) whispering to our branches to reach out and do works, so he has food (fruit/flesh) to eat.

The only answer to the snake problem is let Jesus's heel (the END OF THE WORLD/flesh IN US) crush the serpent's head (to be carnally minded is death). And this is only a sovereign work of the SPIRIT of God in us, we CANNOT by taking thought, add one cubit to the measure of the stature of Christ in us. Christ IS the end of the world, OUR world, our flesh, when He has taken over all of us, the last thing to change is OUR WALK (to walk in the Spirit is LIFE), and then we are, through Him IN US, able to crush the serpent, and not until.

And when the serpent sees the day approaching, he is even more furiously determined to not let us ascend in the Spirit, and he snags us by the heel, the last part of us he tries to poison with disobedience, by corrupting our walk. The heel-catcher goes for the heel.

Leaning to the carnal mind to determine for you what is good and what is bad, is taking thought, which we are told will not add to the stature of Christ in us. Stature = FULL GROWN MATURE SON OF GOD who is in heaven, but walking on earth, capable of DEMONSTRATING THE WORKS OF HIS KINGDOM.

Our Father, which are it heaven, thy KINGDOM COME, THY WILL BE DONE. It is impossible to know the will of God, apart from the Spirit leading you. Impossible, because He is to be our hands AND our FEET. Flesh (works and walk = us in a physical body) is what gets crucified, and only the SPIRIT can kill AND make alive.

This is why He came back in a body that was crucified. Ever wonder why those wounds weren't healed from the resurrection? It was because He appeared to them as the NEXT MANIFESTATION OF GOD IN A BODY, THE RISEN LORD IN A CRUCIFIED PEOPLE, who do His works and walk His walk AND crushed the serpent's head. Halleluyah! Come, Lord, come. Blessings....

[Seth]

Hello Seth.  You speak of the law being changed, and yet say that Jesus did not say it was not of God's spirit etc.  Jesus witnessed the father in him, and what he said HE DID and how he did it instead of doing it like Moses and the prophets and Israel believed it to be done, is abolishing the OLD WAY OF DOING IT because it is of men and the world and not of God's Spirit.'

That last part is YOUR INFERENCE. Jesus never literally said "because the Law is of men and the world and not of God's Spirit." There are alot of possible "because" statements, not just yours.

Abolishing the need to follow the Law DOES NOT mean the Law was not written by God and commanded Israel to perform. It means that there was a former administration and a new administration for the reasons I already provided above, which are paraphrases of scripture.

IF we do not understand that, we are still going to be double minded in thinking we are to be like God yet God does things we are not to do, etc.

Are you substituting the word "we" for "you" because you are essentially saying that I am double minded because of what I believe?

The problem arises because men, even nice Christian people, believe that God MUST DO EVIL TO MAN in the end to teach man to be good. God says this is foolishness, the foolishness of man in the world.

You keep substituting "God says" for things that YOU infer. Christians, like me, believe that God creates evil and kills and makes alive, and heals and wounds, BECAUSE the Bible says he does. Your only method to demonstrate otherwise is to cast doubt on whether or not those scriptures are of the Lord.

Jesus shows us that doing evil, even the scripture accounts of his death, KILL HIM.   IF we think the God he witnessed by doing no violence, etc, is going to be other than what Jesus witnessed, then we are following the belief of faithful Moses and the prophets and the old testament.  Christians who believe doing evil to someone teaches them to be good and what goood is like have lost the mind of Christ.

God brought violence upon Christ in his sovereign choice to not only prophecy his death thousands of years before it happened, but to set in motion all that led to his sacrifice. God GAVE his son to his persecutors, because "not my will be done, but YOURS."

We have to see the testimony of Moses and the prophets for what spirit it is of, activated and accomplished for us in us BY GOD, or we will remain as the son of the morning and not as the son of the Kingdom and the full light of day.
What is wrong with doing only Jesus' words and find out.   I understand that many reasons sit in the middle of that road saying, I can not.  So, later then.
The spirit of the old testament has to be beheaded, and a new head, Jesus Christ, established.  This is what the covering of the woman is, the old head\mind\nature.

The testimony of Moses and the Prophets are of the Spirit of GOD.

[Seth]

Ken: "IF we do not understand that, we are still going to be double minded in thinking we are to be like God yet God does things we are not to do, etc."

If you knew that a child would die in a war, and you had the power to stop it, would you?

If the answer is "yes" and you have any faith in God's sovereign power to interfere with the affairs of men, you have to recognize that while YOU might stop it, God chooses not to, on innumerable occasions. Therefore, you are to be like God, yet would do something God does not do. God allows men to destroy themselves when he has the power to stop it, because that's part of the evil travail he has given the sons of men to humble them thereby.

[eaglesway]

The scripture needs to be divided.  Rightly divided, the scripture itself says.

Jesus himself tells us that some of the things taught and DID by Moses and the prophets as ways of God, which they sincerely believed were like God is, were not what God is like. 

Jesus said, you have heard it said, BUT I say unto you....it is not like you think. {my take}.

So [mod edit -  declaring (post in the spirit of "as I understand"/"I believe")  something approaching personal insult]

Bless, Donken

The issue is........ it may not be as I take it, yet....it may also not be as you take it. There is no final word here, no "I have the ultimate take on it". Hence, the importance of expressing our views as opinions regardless of whether we think we have "the very mind of the Spirit", or not. This site is run as an internet forum, not a platform for "teachers" and their particular views.

[donken]

Hi.  Re personal insult.  I am sorry, but it is not even in my thoughts to mean it as such.  I am simply saying Jesus said that the way the Israel and the priesthood understood the scripture was in the natural understanding as things are done in and by and through the spirit of the world.  Jesus said it was not as they thought, I put it that way simply to emphasize the point because many have read the sermon on the mount and do not see it as Jesus changing the former UNDERSTANDING.  That is not way that GOD {the father in Jesus} means it as HIS WORD.  His words, or the meaning of them, would not be "hidden" if they were the natural meaning of the scripture which is prey to the mind and desires and ways of natural man.   

Jesus said we have heard it said, eye for eye, but I say unto you you are not resisting evil.   ... turn the other cheek instead.   {Follow me Jesus said also, in other places, and that is one of the ways of THE WAY to Jesus Christ.

In a sense, Jesus also said if we hear his words and do not do them we are building our house on the sand, {will be washed away, we die}.  So, why are we not doing what he said and trying to prove that God does different than Jesus witnessed of him.  We do not see Jesus doing any harm to anyone, in fact he was reversing {restoring} the physical state of man back to the norm and what it should be.

Jesus reversed disease, blindness, and so on, physically, and these diseases and problems are said in the scripture to be "works of the devil, or demons, etc.".
We know different today thanks to the beast that is bringing forth this truth for us today "IF" we see this properly and there will be no fear involved in knowing about the beast or man or anything.  But what scripture says about Jesus was that he was reversing or healing man from the works of "the devil" that has the power of death.  He was not reversing God's works.  When he "arrives" his work is going to be to still the storms and all the problems caused by the nature of and in the world, just as he witnessed himself doing, among other things, in Israel.

The Spirit is said to leave {heaven or the father or whatever one may name this at this time} and cleave unto THE FLESH and they TWO shall be ONE FLESH.   I would like to emphasize here, one FLESH.  Anyone who died as a Christian has not "yet" entered into eternal life.  Jesus always takes his body with him.
I also say, if I die and my body goes to the grave, I was not yet Jesus Christ.  We are to be WHO HE IS spiritually in this body in the world.  God's seed bears absolutely true every time, not different "spirits" as if any other spirit but God's could ever have eternal life.

I understand that this may be controversial, but the scripture can also be read to agree with this interpretation and it is up to any hearer or reader to do with it as they wish.   That is what is going on everywhere where there is a difference of Opinion.

I will share a couple of scriptures that may be seen in a provocative manner if the see something different than what is presently believed by whoever reads it.  If not, fine, but some one might and that is why I share them.   This is already the battle of the Lord's DAY {daylight}.  God draws us to armageddon where the beast IN US is defeated, the natural SPIRIT and MIND.  Not the death of the body.  This is the time we approach being changed without sleeping.     Do we have to wait until we see others who are there and we not.

Joh_11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

   {so, just what is belief.  Is it about Jesus, or is it IN Jesus and the resurrection of Jesus IN US.?   This mortal MUST put on immortality.  This is speaking about the body that can die.  Spirit joins to the flesh and they two become ONE FLESH... Jesus Christ, the only flesh that does not die because he already died physically.  This is what salvation is, the body is the increase to the Kingdom.  The spirit in that body when it is in the Kingdom already is in the Kingdom.  No increase of Spirit, just of bodies.  The "created things" made perfect by the contents in them>  Make the inside clean and the outside WILL BE clean also.

Pro_7:1  My son, keep my words, and lay up my commandments with thee.
Joh_14:23  Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Pro_7:1  My son, keep my words, and lay up my commandments with thee.
Joh_14:23  Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Do we think God and Christ Jesus COME TO US and we still are incomplete or imperfect.  What is it they COME TO, not we go there, but they come here.

The second man, the Lord from Heaven, is A QUICKENING SPIRIT.   Do not look to see Jesus outside of yourself.  The quickening spirit is already here, now.  Invisible.  same as... until the spirit be poured out upon us FROM ON HIGH, and then peace in righteousness will reign.  I want to emphasize THE SPIRIT does it, not Jesus outside, th pouring out of the spirit, not the Jesus in the sky.

Any who believe that the natural Adam is carnal or physical bodied, please read closely.

1Co_15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
In line with this mortal and this corruptible must put on immortality.  something that does not have it must put it on or have it.

2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified **in his saints***, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
So, who is "punished" with everlasting destruction.  Certainly not the devil.  But the power of death of the devil is destroyed at His coming.  The devil as a spiritual condition of man that is going to continue to be born physically and grow up spiritually after Jesus the Christ "comes".  The child.  But death is what is going to be abolished when Jesus Christ rules IN THE FLESH in the world forever.  Yes, people may be born, grow up spiritually and eventually go to eternal life with God but there will still always be new babies being born to grow up and they will not longer suffer the things we did and no longer die physically.  It will be a spiritual death, the death of immaturity and of ignorance and "sin".  Every baby will automatically still be short of the glory of God until fully grown physically and spiritually as Jesus Christ.

Mat_7:26  And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

He is obviously talking here about people who HEAR what he says.  Of course, there is two types of "ears" and I think most of you know about that.

Jesus gives us the TRUE BREAD FROM HEAVEN.    The church all through history, even up to today although it is diminishing, has named the name of Jesus but taught and obeyed MOSES as if that was Jesus.   

Bless, donken

[Seth]

I am simply saying Jesus said that the way the Israel and the priesthood understood the scripture was in the natural understanding as things are done in and by and through the spirit of the world.  Jesus said it was not as they thought, I put it that way simply to emphasize the point because many have read the sermon on the mount and do not see it as Jesus changing the former UNDERSTANDING.  That is not way that GOD {the father in Jesus} means it as HIS WORD.  His words, or the meaning of them, would not be "hidden" if they were the natural meaning of the scripture which is prey to the mind and desires and ways of natural man.   

I have no problem with the idea that the Israelites misunderstood scripture. But that really not at the heart of this issue. The heart of this issue is whether or not we can trust the OT scripture, whether it was written incorrectly, whether the prophets spoke by the spirit of man or God.

You have not simply declared that the scriptures have been misunderstood. You have impugned the reliability of the prophets and the scriptures themselves. This is because the scriptures clearly testify to things you deny, so you'd have to say that the prophets were of the spirit of man because they make claims that you don't believe. That is the real disagreement here, not that scriptures were misunderstood.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: IMO, donken, respect of persons, which was Eve's sin, is only wanting to see what the FLESH MAN Jesus spoke as being from the Spirit of God, when in fact, the Spirit of God spoke through others in the OT, including Moses and the prophets. When you see the Seed that is Christ, and know His "voice", then EVERYONE in there was, did, and is capable of "speaking". We have only to be willing to receive the hearing ear, and HEAR. Blessings....