Tentmaker Forum

Where did Enoch go?

What an interesting question  :URWelcome:.

I saw one guy say he was raptured like we will be.  Since I'm guessing you're not going with that answer exactly, I looked up Hebrews 11:5 in The Christian Bible (1992)...extremely literal to the Koine Greek, but I do believe they add some "explanations" here and there, so I'm making no claims here...just found their translation interesting, and see if adds anything or not.

"By faith Enoch was transferred [to the beginning of the Last Age], so that he wasn't acquainted with death;  and he wasn't found because God had transferred him [Gen. 5:24]."  Hebrews 11:5, Christian Bible

To me, this sounds almost like another dimension rather than "heaven".  Don't know if it's accurate or not, but again, thought it was interesting.  

I was trying to corroborate this scripture with John 3:13; And no one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven.

And Jab that is interesting: To the beginning of the Last Age.
That would be Eden?

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 24, 2009, 06:38:30 AM

I was trying to corroborate this scripture with John 3:13; And no one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven.

And Jab that is interesting: To the beginning of the Last Age.
That would be Eden?

I was thinking the same thing about "no one ascended except Jesus".  Then we get into what is heaven  :sigh:.  Some believe it's THE heavens, not A heaven  :dontknow:.  Not sure I know the difference  :laughing7:.

Here's what I believe about the translators of the Christian Bible.  I believe they only see one more age AFTER this one, so they call it The Last Age.  I almost see it as Enoch's already "out there in time" somewhere, waiting for us to catch up.  If it's the beginning of the "next age", not necessarily the Last One as the translators indicate, then maybe he has a special role of leading the saints/Sons of God in further restoration, heading up to God All in All.

Know what?  I don't know!  I'm just throwing out some thoughts on an intersting question you asked.

But that's a cool thought about Eden.  Some might say that's sort of how it all ends up.  :thumbsup:

Willi, before you post, I want you to know I thought about you as I was posting the "somewhere in time" thing...one reason I put it in quotes...I almost noted your thoughts on "God doesn't have 'time', time is for us."  :bigGrin:

willieH: Hi brother James... :hithere:

Quote from: jabcat on November 24, 2009, 06:19:59 AM
What an interesting question  :URWelcome:.

I saw one guy say he was raptured like we will be.  Since I'm guessing you're not going with that answer exactly, I looked up Hebrews 11:5 in The Christian Bible (1992)...extremely literal to the Koine Greek, but I do believe they add some "explanations" here and there, so I'm making no claims here...just found their translation interesting, and see if adds anything or not.

"By faith Enoch was transferred [to the beginning of the Last Age], so that he wasn't acquainted with death;  and he wasn't found because God had transferred him [Gen. 5:24]."  Hebrews 11:5, Christian Bible

To me, this sounds almost like another dimension rather than "heaven".  Don't know if it's accurate or not, but again, thought it was interesting.

That IS interesting brother James... however, ...as I see it, ...this is at best, a speculation (imagination), for no "other dimension" is noted as existent, nor is referenced in the WORD... is it?  :dunno:

Nor does the WORD say that Enoch was "transferred" to the "beginning of the last age"...

Heb 11:13 speaks of all the prior mentioned ones (which included ENOCH):

Heb 11:13 -- these ALL -- DIED in faith, not having recieved the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them and confesssed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth...

Enoch is the (7th) decendant of ADAM... and Scripture plainly states that -- IN ADAM --- ALL DIE... 1 Cor 15:22 -- [ADAM--SETH--ENOS--CAINAN--MAHALALEEL--JARED--ENOCH] --

If Enoch actually "went to Heaven" -- and is in Heaven with God (as most of Chrisitianity believes) -- Then concerning Enoch, the Savior was therefore not necessary, and this would also mean that JESUS in part (concerning Enoch) died UNNECESSARILY, as JESUS tasted DEATH for EVERY MAN -- Heb 2:9 -- So a portion of CHRIST's sacrifice was not necessary!

I don't buy it.  Enoch was a man, and IN ADAM, and therefore concieved in SIN, and in need of the Savior...

And though his DEATH was not noted, it HAD to have taken place, otherwise the above Scriptures are compromised [1 Cor 15:22 and Heb 2:9] as well as others that state that JESUS is the "Savior of the WORLD"...

They would have to say --

JESUS is "the Savior of the World" -- except Enoch... or,

JESUS is "the Savior of ALL" -- except Enoch...  :dontknow:  The WORD does NOT say these things...

Though Enoch's "physical death" is not recorded, the "physical deaths" of many other "Biblical" personages are not recorded either.  :dontknow:

I believe the "translation" of ENOCH was one of FAITH (in the Savior to come)... meaning that His "walk with God" was a transforming one, and one which Scripture intends as is noted in the FAITH chapter (in Hebrews 11) that he did not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit...

Col 1:13 notes that believers are "translated" into the Kingdom of God... This does not mean that we no longer are here on earth, it means our hearts have been "transferred" from UNBELIEF... Even then, MEN are still APPOINTED -- Once to die -- Heb 9:27 -- this is/was applicable  to Enoch, who was a MAN.

PS... I just read your note, brother...   :laughing7:   :friendstu:

QuoteWilli, before you post, I want you to know I thought about you as I was posting the "somewhere in time" thing...one reason I put it in quotes...I almost noted your thoughts on "God doesn't have 'time', time is for us."

It remains my belief that Enoch PHYSICALLY DIED because:

(1) men are appointed once to die
(2) Heb 11 notes him amongst the men of FAITH who DIED
(3) Enoch was a direct descendent of Adam and In Adam all DIE
(4) Enoch was a SINNER, and in need of a Savior, as well as RESURRECTION
(5) God is IMPARTIAL to all men, so no one "gets there" before the others...

:Peace: me bratha  :afFro:

Thanks Willie.
It was faith that translated him from one state of being to another state of being.
For he walked by faith not by sight as did those that could not find him anymore.

Yeah, good points Willi.  As far as my "imagining" things, I said "sounds almost like...don't know if it's accurate".  There was also this part of my post -

"Know what?  I don't know!  I'm just throwing out some thoughts on an intersting question you asked."

Also, 2 more things -

I'm going to do a little word study on this "Nor does the WORD say that Enoch was "transferred"...actually, as I said, The Christian Bible is a very literal translation to the Koine Greek.  I don't know exactly what Greek word that is, and how others translate it, but I want to look.

The other thing is, he seemed to be missing, as in, "they couldn't find him".  Not sure how that fits.

Thanks, James.

Jab, perhaps that they could not find him anymore has a very practical meaning.
Like when a young person hangs out at a bar every Saturday night for years, then he finds his faith and stops going the the nightclubs and behold — they saw him no more!

Maybe.  I got'ta do some thinkin' on this one.   Thanks a lot  :laughing7:.

OK, looking at that word some more, I didn't get a whole lot new out of this...anyone else?  

(Hebrews 11:5 in the Greek Interlinear)

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/heb11.pdf

biblecc.org notes these cross-references about Enoch;


Genesis 5:21 Enoch lived sixty-five years, and became the father of Methuselah.
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Luke 2:26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
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John 8:51 "Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death."
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Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

Certainly to me, that last verse especially seems to be referencing spiritual death, but not positive.

μετετεθη  verb - aorist passive indicative - third person singular
metatithemi  met-at-ith'-ay-mee:  to transfer, i.e. (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert -- carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.   :dontknow:

There are other realms or dimensions.  Paul's aim was regarding "the on-high calling."  He wanted to obtain a prize he called being summoned into a higher realm in Christ. (Php)  He also spoke of being so possessed by God that he entered into the third heaven and into "Paradise" (2 Co 12;)  I'm not sure if they are the same thing.  He also said twice that whether it was in the body or out of the body he was unaware.  This says much about several things.  One area is existing apart from the body as a spirit being, as a disembodied spirit and what can happen receptively or assertively with a spirit.  But this is a digression.  Paul speaking of entering the third heaven is what I'm pointing to.

I also know by experience we can be in another time by the Holy Spirit.

That Jesus alone possesseth immortality I searched out and posted about somewhere else here.  As far as I could determine it is right to think of that as being Jesus' possession but not something He doesn't bring others into experienceing.  He gives something of it to others but it remains His own special possession.  Others have entered into things pertaining to immortal, incorruptible states; but, Jesus holds the key as "the firstborn from the dead."

Willie says:
(1) men are appointed once to die
          but I say "we shall not all sleep"
(2) Heb 11 notes him amongst the men of FAITH who DIED
          but how was that death accomplished:  physically or vicariously?
(3) Enoch was a direct descendent of Adam and In Adam all DIE
          those "who are baptized into (not water, but) Christ are baptized into His death." and again, "We shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed!"
(4) Enoch was a SINNER, and in need of a Savior, as well as RESURRECTION
(5) God is IMPARTIAL to all men, so no one "gets there" before the others...
          Jesus is a man...there are Overcomers and they are ahead of others, whether in time or rank.  Scripture speaks of "each man in his own order."  This "order" is a word used of military "ranks."  Besides, I know by experience I'm way ahead of those "sons of stubborness" who are walking according to the spirit that works in them.  I was previously among them in the same or worse condition.  The principal reason anyone gets there (?) ahead of anybody else is to bring others in.

The 5th book of Genesis is basicly just a list of birth and death.
Every person seems to "end" with: And the days of xxx were yyy years. And he died.

Only for Enoch the last part states and the Lord took him instead of he died.
For me that can simply mean: Took his life. (God gives and takes)
And if Enoch was sorta raptured where too? Not to heaven it seems...
John 3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

But this possibly contradicts that...?
2 Kings 2:11  And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Right now I believe "took him"simply means died.
Lots can be argued about the vague wording of Enoch and Elijah.
But the verse about Jesus is very direct and clear. And in my opinion a opinion/doctrine should be build on the clear cut verses. Not the maybe, possibly, likely, type of verses....
:2c:

Quote from: jabcat on November 24, 2009, 06:47:42 AMI was thinking the same thing about "no one ascended except Jesus".  Then we get into what is heaven  :sigh:.  Some believe it's THE heavens, not A heaven  :dontknow:.  Not sure I know the difference  :laughing7:

There are (at least) 3.
The sky. Space/universe. Where God lives.

Quote from: jabcat on November 24, 2009, 06:55:08 AM
But that's a cool thought about Eden.  Some might say that's sort of how it all ends up.  :thumbsup:

Mmm, and where is Eden located? It's not on earth (at least not visible). It's not in heaven because only Jesus went there.
Then it must be in Abrams bossom in the rich man and lazarus parable... :laughing7:

:idea2: Mmmz. :idea2:

John 3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that decended from heaven.
(I changed (red) the verse a little to make my point)

A king also ascends and decends to a throne. -> change in power
That has a different meaning as for example walking to a throne. -> change of place.

Jesus always was higher lifeform to use Trekkie speak :icon_king:
He decended=lower rank/mortality/flesh/etc
He ascended=king/immortal/spiritual/etc

Jesus seems the only one that did something with His own power
Elajah needed a chariot. Enoch was translated, whatever the exact meaning of that is.
I guess the other people are lost in translation :laughing7:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 24, 2009, 11:41:29 AM
Jesus seems the only one that did something with His own power
Elajah needed a chariot. Enoch was translated, whatever the exact menaing of that is.
I guess teh rest is lost in translation :laughing7:

so here's a thought...
If both Enoch and Elijah didn't die way back then but "was found no more"...and man is appointed once to die...maybe they would be the two witnesses in the last days?...we know that the two witnesses do die and after three days they are called up to heaven...mmm...the plot thickens

noname,
By now they are already several millenia 'not found' and witnesses or not my question (and of BS I think) where are they right now?

Quote from: jabcat on November 24, 2009, 08:50:43 AM
μετετεθη  verb - aorist passive indicative - third person singular
metatithemi  met-at-ith'-ay-mee:  to transfer, i.e. (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert -- carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.   :dontknow:

Doesn't that mean the transferring is still taking place?
(does not sound like blink of an eye)

Colossians 1:13  Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Do believers die.....?

Deuteronomy 34:5-6  So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

Moses was also not found. Because Father buried him.
He was translated into dust.... :2c:

One more....  :mblush:

Hebrews 11:1-13 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.  2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.  3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.  4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.  5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.  6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.  7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.  8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.  9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:  10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.  11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.  12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.  13 These all died  in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 24, 2009, 02:20:24 PM
noname,
By now they are already several millenia 'not found' and witnesses or not my question (and of BS I think) where are they right now?

maybe on planet X...just a jokey
who knows...does it really matter? God had another plan for them, one day we'd know :thumbsup:

 :cloud9: Personally, I don't see a problem with it saying Enoch was translated by faith and did not see death and was taken into heaven. I don't think that could be any plainer, and since faith in Christ is a prerequisite, to me it just seems that He revealed Himself to him for him to accomplish this.

The Spirit IS Christ, and He is not limited to one age since by Him and thru Him all things were created. The Spirit is active throughout all generations; the Spirit came upon Saul and he prophesied. I think in both the case of Elijah and Enoch, He was simply "creating" two types and shadows for us. My  :2c: Blessings.....

Here is an article I thought you might enjoy.


Did Enoch and Elijah Die?

Most Christians commonly assume that the Bible shows the prophets Enoch and Elijah as having been translated to heaven back in their times and that they are now living in an immortal state with Christ and God the Father (II Kings 2:1,11; Hebrews 11:5). The fact is, however, nothing could be farther from the truth. In no way do the Holy Scriptures teach that these two prophets are now immortal and in heaven.
 
It is the simplest thing in the world to show where the dead are at the present (both the righteous dead and the unrighteous dead) if one wants to rely solely on the teachings of the Holy Scriptures. They are presently in their graves (thoroughly unconscious in every way) and they are awaiting the resurrection from the dead (see Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalm 6:5; 146:4; John 3:13). The inspired revelation as to the state of the dead shows that they "sleep in the dust of the earth" (Daniel 12:2) and that none of them will "awake" from his or her death state until after the great tribulation at the end of the age (Daniel 12:1,2). For those who are "in Christ," they will be resurrected back to life when Christ Jesus returns with his saints (the angels) at his second advent (I Corinthians 15:50-55; I Thessalonians 4:15-16). This is called "the first resurrection" (Revelation 20:5), and it is the plain teaching of Scripture. It solves so many problems to understand it.

Indeed, the only one who has ever lived in the flesh and has become an immortal being is Jesus Christ once he was resurrected from the dead. In fact, the apostle Paul in A.D. 63, over thirty years after Christ was resurrected from the dead, stated that Christ was the one "who only hath immortality" (I Timothy 6:16). To state otherwise, as so many people are prone to do today, is to be totally inconsistent with scriptural truth and is a patent absurdity. Immortality for Christians will only arrive when Christ returns. It is only then that "this mortal must put on immorality" (I Corinthians 15:53). The false teaching of the "present immortality" in Christ (which is the belief that the soul is immortal or that there is a continual living existence of the human personality which transcends the physical consequences of death) is a teaching which makes a mockery out of the inspired revelation of God that the dead remain dead (and will continue to remain in their graves) until their resurrections from the dead.

And let's face it, if mankind were created by God with an inherent immortality, then the "tree of life" in the midst of the Garden of Eden would have been a redundant item in the Garden. The first lie of the serpent was to tell Eve and Adam that God was a liar and that they would never die (Genesis 3:4). The serpent was trying to convince Eve that it was not necessary to take of the "tree of life" to attain an immortality because, according to the serpent, they had immortality already. He said: "Ye shall not surely die." Satan has been a liar from the very beginning (John 8:44) and he and his ministers (II Corinthians 11:14,15) are constantly perpetuating the same lie to human beings that "ye shall not surely die." At the present, however, some preachers are slightly modifying the serpent's teaching by saying that if you are "in Christ" then you are presently immortal and that you don't have to wait for salvation which is in accord with the scriptural teaching concerning the resurrection from the dead which will occur at Christ's advent. Its erroneous to say that Christians are immortal already. Nothing could be more wrong.

But what about Enoch and Elijah? Do we not read in the Scripture that Enoch did not die and that Elijah was transported into heaven? Let us first look at the matter of Elijah. The verse that makes some people thing that Elijah was taken into heaven where God lives is II Kings 2:11. This describes the scene when Elijah departed from his successor Elisha. It says: "And it came to pass, as they still went on and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." From this, it has been surmised by many people that Elijah was taken to God's throne in heaven and has remained there alive ever since. In no way is this true.

The fact is, there are three usages of the word 'heaven' in the Bible. One is where the birds fly and the clouds exist (that is, our atmosphere) (Genesis 1:20). The second is where all the heavenly bodies are (Genesis 1:14-17). And the third is, indeed, the very region where God himself resides. This is even called "the third heaven" by apostle Paul (II Corinthians 12:1,2). Was it "the third heaven" into which Elijah was taken? The answer is clearly NO. We even have the express teaching of Christ himself that no one (man or woman) has ever ascended into the heaven where God resides. "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven" (John 3:13). This means that Elijah (who lived almost 900 years before the birth of Christ) could not have gone into the heaven in which God has his residence. He simply went upwards into the heavens where the birds fly and the clouds exist and was transferred to another location on earth.

Such a circumstance concerning Elijah was even anticipated by those who lived in Elijah's time and knew him personally. A righteous man by the name of Obadiah told Elijah that he believed God would cause "the Spirit of YHVH to carry thee whither I know not where" (I Kings 18:12). This shows that the power of Elijah to be transported by the Spirit from one place on earth to another was already recognized as possible by the people who lived at the time. And when Elijah handed over power to his successor, Elisha, he was indeed transported through the air out of the central area of Palestine into the kingdom of Judah in the south (II Kings 2:11). Elijah only went into the "first heaven" (the atmosphere of the earth), and not into outer space or the heaven of God's throne. This is made clear in the scripture because about seven years later we find Elijah still on earth (but this time living in Judah) writing a letter to the King of Judah (II Chronicles 21:12). So Elijah continued to live on earth.

Elijah was simply taken miraculously through the air to a location in southern Judah. The prophet Ezekiel experienced the same phenomenon in his day (Ezekiel 3:12-14) and even the evangelist Philip was similarly transported bodily through the air from a spot near Gaza to the city of Azotus a few miles away (Acts 8:39,40). Thus, Elijah was not taken to the heaven where God lived. The prophet died a few years after his "transfer" and is awaiting his resurrection from the dead (like all the saints of old). Of all who have lived in the flesh, Christ "only hath immortality" ( I Timothy 6:16).

Now what about Enoch? The answer is much the same. The apostle Paul in the Book of Hebrews says this about Enoch: "By faith Enoch was translated [Greek: transferred] that he should not see death; and was not found because God had translated [transferred] him: for before his translation he had this testimony that he pleased God" (Hebrews 11:5). Notice that Paul did not say Enoch did not die. He simply said he was transferred by God to a place where no death could be seen. Where was that place? The answer is plain but it may be a surprise to some people. Enoch was transferred into the Garden of Eden which remained on earth until the Flood. This was the place where God had His presence (Genesis 3:8; 4:16). This was a place where anyone taken into the Garden could talk to God face to face as the word "presence" signifies.

It was in the Garden that God was accustomed to walk in the cool of the day (Genesis 3:8). Now note this point. This Scripture says that two men were able to "walk WITH GOD" and these were Enoch and Noah (Genesis 5:22-24; 6:9), while later men such as Abraham were able to "walk BEFORE GOD" (Genesis 17:1). It was only 'in the midst of the Garden" that God walked, and to "walk with God' meant that Enoch was transferred into the Garden where he stayed in a permanent way in God's presence until his death. Noah was also permitted to "walk with God' in the Garden in Eden, but he was also allowed to leave in order to build the ark.

Thus, Enoch at the age of 365 was not found in human society any longer. As the Scripture says: "He was not; for God took him [transferred him in the Garden]." Where, as Paul said, "he should not see death" (Hebrews 11:5). Paul was not saying that Enoch would not die. He simply meant that Enoch was taken to a place where no death could be seen. And while in the Garden no death was seen. The same occurs in the New Jerusalem where it says "there shall be no more death" (Revelation 21:4). But Enoch did die (maybe near the time when the Garden ceased at the Flood) because Paul said "these ALL DIED" (Hebrews 11:13, and this obviously (as the context shows) including Enoch. This means that both Enoch and Elijah are like all other men. Both are dead and awaiting the resurrection at the second advent of Christ.
Ernest L Martin

Willie  :hithere:

I appreciate your thoughts on this topic.   Perhaps "was not" just means he passed away peacefully.   
That is how my mother died -- just leaned back and closed her eyes while riding in a car with my sister.
It was a peaceful passing and she was not anxious about it since she did not know it was going to be
her last breath.   My father-in-law died in a similar manner sitting in a comfortable chair.  Just went to sleep.
I'd like to pass in a similar way if it is in God's permissive will.   I do not want to die a violent, painful death.

Anne

Quote from: Cardinal on November 24, 2009, 04:56:12 PM
:cloud9: Personally, I don't see a problem with it saying Enoch was translated by faith and did not see death and was taken into heaven. I don't think that could be any plainer, and since faith in Christ is a prerequisite, to me it just seems that He revealed Himself to him for him to accomplish this.

The Spirit IS Christ, and He is not limited to one age since by Him and thru Him all things were created. The Spirit is active throughout all generations; the Spirit came upon Saul and he prophesied. I think in both the case of Elijah and Enoch, He was simply "creating" two types and shadows for us. My  :2c: Blessings.....

Ok that's your opinion. But based on what? Words like 'can' and 'not limited' are noting more that wishful thinking.
Shure it could be done. But the way I see it another verse claims Jesus was the first.
So unless you show me at least 1 verse that supports your view it's just your personal opnion to me.... :2c:

 :cloud9: I already gave you one verse; did you miss the one about the Spirit coming upon Saul and he prophesied?  :laughing7:

I'd also like to point out that He ascended and descended all thru the "book of ages", which is what it literally is; He didn't just do it in the NT account of 2000 years ago.

And CHB, it's an interesting article but I kinda tuned him out, as soon as I got to his statement about the soul being unconscious after death, which I know to be untrue. I discussed this on another thread and don't feel like rehashing it here, but that's where I stand on that. Blessings...

Quote from: Cardinal on November 24, 2009, 06:33:45 PM
:cloud9: I already gave you one verse; did you miss the one about the Spirit coming upon Saul and he prophesied?  :laughing7:

I'd also like to point out that He ascended and descended all thru the "book of ages", which is what it literally is; He didn't just do it in the NT account of 2000 years ago.

And CHB, it's an interesting article but I kinda tuned him out, as soon as I got to his statement about the soul being unconscious after death, which I know to be untrue. I discussed this on another thread and don't feel like rehashing it here, but that's where I stand on that. Blessings...

  Amen Card
  I can see the soul  that ''rests'' in the Lord and His Work
  the seat of emotions   where the peace and joy and Holy Spirit is felt and known by reciving this  promise of  God though Jesus Christ ....  Hebs 4  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Cardinal on November 24, 2009, 06:33:45 PM
:cloud9: I already gave you one verse; did you miss the one about the Spirit coming upon Saul and he prophesied?  :laughing7:

I never overlook those spirit verses.

QuoteI'd also like to point out that He ascended and descended all thru the "book of ages", which is what it literally is; He didn't just do it in the NT account of 2000 years ago.

By stating that you add contradictions instead of clearing them up.
I doubt the verses about Enoch and Elijah only have a spiritual component.
Perhaps the spirit form of Jesus ascended and decented billions of times but is that relevant? Jesus was the fist man that did so. For me that means someone that was/is of flesh and blood. That happend long after Enoch and Elijah.
:dontknow:

 :cloud9: How do you know He wasn't one of the 3 that appeared to Abraham, for example? There are plenty of Christophanies in the book, including Him appearing as the gardener after His resurrection, and the man on the road to Emmaus that spoke to the two, in the NT.

My point was, that He tries to get us to quit looking at His form and to look at Him behind the form, as Spirit. Both Elijah and Enoch could have been taken up IN CHRIST, who is as both a chariot of fire, and a whirlwind.

I've seen Him as the whirlwind myself, and I saw no man, yet it was Him. Obviously at least for Enoch, it would have necessitated a change in his nature, no less than the one we are currently anticipating, ie. the redemption of our BODIES.

I'm not trying to argue with anyone's post here, just throwing out some food for thought.......Blessings.....

Quote from: Cardinal on November 24, 2009, 07:57:48 PM
:cloud9: How do you know He wasn't one of the 3 that appeared to Abraham, for example?

What 3?

QuoteThere are plenty of Christophanies in the book, including Him appearing as the gardener after His resurrection,

But we are not discussing 'appearing' but 'ascending' or 'not found anymore'

QuoteMy point was, that He tries to get us to quit looking at His form and to look at Him behind the form, as Spirit. Both Elijah and Enoch could have been taken up IN CHRIST, who is as both a chariot of fire, and a whirlwind.

I don't argue with that. I simply don't know that. But I do know I've read a verse that clearly states Jesus was the first man to ascend. So all the above doesn't really help me.

QuoteI've seen Him as the whirlwind myself

Great. Maybe a million others saw. Maybe a 1 miljon unmentioned people are taken away in a whirlwind.

Quoteand I saw no man, yet it was Him.

But the verse said Jesus was the first man/human to ascend. I'm in no may claiming Jesus before of after never visited earth. Maybe He even took several people before Enoch away.

I'm in no way caliming I have solid proof of anything. But at least I have a few verses that seem to say Enoch, Elijah and Moses are not in heaven. Moses was buried by Father. Totally out of context? Very well possible!
But no matter how true it is what you write I'm simply unable to believe you until you debunk my use of those verses.
Just because I don't believe teachings of the HS clash with a verse

QuoteObviously at least for Enoch, it would have necessitated a change in his nature, no less than the one we are currently anticipating, ie. the redemption of our BODIES.

I'm not trying to argue with anyone's post here, just throwing out some food for thought.......Blessings.....

But if you throw food in a discussion forum it gets...discussed :laughing7:

Quote from: Whitewings
Maybe a 1 miljon unmentioned people are taken away in a whirlwind.

:laughing7:  That made my belly fat jiggle.  Sorry for the yucky visual.  :eeew:

Anne

willieH: Hi brother James... :hithere:

Quote from: jabcat on November 24, 2009, 08:12:16 AM
Yeah, good points Willi.  As far as my "imagining" things, I said "sounds almost like...don't know if it's accurate".  There was also this part of my post -

"Know what?  I don't know!  I'm just throwing out some thoughts on an intersting question you asked."

:mblush:  Sorry bro... I did not mean it was "your" speculation, ...I meant it is ANYONE who beholds Enoch as alive and IN HEAVEN, is holding a speculation (imagination)... Again, no offense or criticism was intended toward you my brother.  :cloud9:

Quote from: jabcat on November 24, 2009, 08:12:16 AMAlso, 2 more things -

I'm going to do a little word study on this "Nor does the WORD say that Enoch was "transferred"...actually, as I said, The Christian Bible is a very literal translation to the Koine Greek.  I don't know exactly what Greek word that is, and how others translate it, but I want to look.

Actually, the word which appears "translated" in Heb 11:5 as "translated" -- means -- removed, exchanged, transfer, transfigure or disguise, change sides, pervert, turn, translate, etc. -- #G3346 -- Metatithemi

Quote from: jabcat on November 24, 2009, 08:12:16 AMThe other thing is, he seemed to be missing, as in, "they couldn't find him".  Not sure how that fits.

Thanks, James.

Because the WORD does not plainly state this, we should not speculate... however, as I noted earlier, PAUL notes in Col 1:13 that we are "translated" into the Kingdom of God as believers...

This does not mean that we shall not DIE, nor does it mean that we have "left the earth"...  :dontknow:

(1)  As Anne, suggests... perhaps Enoch DIED -- the Lord ending his days on the earth, for his work was done, or his part in THIS LIFE was complete...  :dontknow: ...or,

(2)  Another possibility PHYSICAL Disassociation with UNBELIEF/UNBELIEVERS happens often when conversion takes place in the heart...  

Many that find the Lord, no longer associate or "hang out" with former friends... for their lives, goals, desires, habits, lifestyle, etc... has completely changed, and there is nothing left in common with them.

:Peace: bro  :afFro:

Quote from: willieH on November 24, 2009, 10:33:00 PMMany that find the Lord, no longer associate or "hang out" with former friends... for their lives, goals, desires, habits, lifestyle, etc... has completely changed, and there is nothing left in common with them.

This must be the first post of you I understood Willie :thumbsup:
So when I leave this forum I'm saved?
Or do I misunderstand your "former friends"?  :laughing7:

Thanks Willi, maybe I misunderstood.  Sorry.  This topic is a bit of a puzzler.  :scratchhead:

You'll never be our former friend WW.  :bigGrin:

 :cloud9: Definitely a topic worth digging into some more; got it on my list of priorities for the next 30 days, LOL. Blessings....

Quote from: CHB on November 24, 2009, 05:37:23 PM
Here is an article I thought you might enjoy.


Did Enoch and Elijah Die?....

Ernest L Martin

Holy smokes, C...what an interesting article.  Certainly worth a read.  Thanks for posting it.

willieH: Hi WW... :hiya: :hithere:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 24, 2009, 10:40:21 PM

Quote from: willieH on November 24, 2009, 10:33:00 PMMany that find the Lord, no longer associate or "hang out" with former friends... for their lives, goals, desires, habits, lifestyle, etc... has completely changed, and there is nothing left in common with them.

This must be the first post of you I understood Willie :thumbsup:

:cheerleader:  well, ...I'm quite happy forya, WW...   :myahoo: :laughhand:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 24, 2009, 10:40:21 PMSo when I leave this forum I'm saved?

Are you planning to leave us, WW?  :upset: ...I so enjoy confusing you!  :wacko2: (juz kidn, bro  :icon_jokercolor:)

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 24, 2009, 10:40:21 PMOr do I misunderstand your "former friends"?  :laughing7:

If you do not see that many lives are CHANGED by their HEART's encounter with God, then maybe you "don't understand", ...WW --  :dontknow:

As far as former friends... A person which is delivered from drugs... doesn't continue to hang with his "connection" eh?  :drunken_smilie: :drunken_smilie: :drunken_smilie: :drunken_smilie:

Or maybe the one who used to frequent the bar,  :Party: and get soused -- :beerburp: ...no longer is an, "attendee"...   :search:

As James said... you'll never be a "former friend"... :mwink:

I don't see that this would apply to you anyway WW... after all, ...as I recall,  :shakepoint: ...you never did share your "pot" with us!  :pointlaugh:

Quote from: willieH on November 25, 2009, 03:44:51 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 24, 2009, 10:40:21 PMSo when I leave this forum I'm saved?

Are you planning to leave us, WW?  :upset: ...I so enjoy confusing you!  :wacko2: (juz kidn, bro  :icon_jokercolor:)

I think I confused you with my little joke. You wrote something that I understood as: If we turn to Christ we start a new life and leave the old life/friends behind.
I'm still in what you call "old life" So if i turn to Christ I have to leave you Willie :Mcry:

Gota go now. Gonna walk a bit in this place. Never know what happens..... WW is here (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=nl&geocode=&q=damascus&sll=33.515637,36.376762&sspn=0.114925,0.263844&g=damascus&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Damascus,+Syri%C3%AB&ll=33.519286,36.313419&spn=0.05746,0.131922&z=14&iwloc=A>)

WW, you don't claim to be any sort of champion of the faith, or even mostly a believer.  I'll tell you though, ever since you've been posting here, you've been so respectful of the scriptures and the things of God.  I want to take a second and say "thank you".  I know you were joking about leaving, and I thought it was funny;  but know that you have many friends here.   :HeartThrob:

James.

Thank you f r i e n d  :handshake:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 25, 2009, 10:50:59 AM
Thank you f r i e n d  :handshake:

Luke 18:9-14

And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves
that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt:
"Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the
other a tax collector.
"The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank
You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or
even like this tax collector.
'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.'
"But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even
unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast,
saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'
"I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the
other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles
himself will be exalted."

WW is in Damascus? :mshock:

Quote from: jabcat on November 25, 2009, 10:39:47 AM
WW, you don't claim to be any sort of champion of the faith, or even mostly a believer.  I'll tell you though, ever since you've been posting here, you've been so respectful of the scriptures and the things of God.  I want to take a second and say "thank you".  I know you were joking about leaving, and I thought it was funny;  but know that you have many friends here.   :HeartThrob:

James.

:cloud9: Amen to that Jab.....sad to say I've known professing Christians with less positive to say about the scriptures......Blessings...

Quote from: jabcat on November 25, 2009, 10:39:47 AM
WW, you don't claim to be any sort of champion of the faith, or even mostly a believer.  I'll tell you though, ever since you've been posting here, you've been so respectful of the scriptures and the things of God.  I want to take a second and say "thank you".  I know you were joking about leaving, and I thought it was funny;  but know that you have many friends here.    :HeartThrob:

James.

Ditto that!
:icon_flower:  :HeartThrob: :girlheart: :dsunny: :gguitar: :skittles: :hihat:

:winkgrin:

:goodpost:

Quote from: sparrow on November 25, 2009, 05:49:13 PM

Quote from: jabcat on November 25, 2009, 10:39:47 AM
WW, you don't claim to be any sort of champion of the faith, or even mostly a believer.  I'll tell you though, ever since you've been posting here, you've been so respectful of the scriptures and the things of God.  I want to take a second and say "thank you".  I know you were joking about leaving, and I thought it was funny;  but know that you have many friends here.    :HeartThrob:

James.

Ditto that!
:icon_flower:  :HeartThrob: :girlheart: :dsunny: :gguitar: :skittles: :hihat:

:winkgrin:

:goodpost:

:HeartThrob:  second   3rd that :laughing7:

  and he has  great wit to boot!  :icon_jokercolor: :happy3: LOL 

 well, I think it is a real possibility that God did 'take' Enoch

and Elijah so they would not see death.

 Jesus addressed Peter in regard to the possibility that one of

His disciples may remain unto His return, with 'what is it to you"


 Another reason is Jesus prayer to the Father, "not to take

them out of the world,but to look after them in the world,on

account of the evil one' .

 Not that I think I have a complete and full undertanding of

this subject, but I am excited that the spirit may enlighten us

all further on it.

  Enoch's account speaks of ascending to the throne of God,and

God disclosing  366 books of Word to him. He received a

garment change'like one of God's glorious ones' He then

returned to earthly realm  and wrote out all that God had told

him[this makes me think of the change of Garments that those

wore when ministering to God and ministering to the people.]


 Also the garment change of Joshua the High preists


   ! Cor 2;12 We have not received the spirit of the world,but

the spirit who is from God,that we may understand what God

has freely given us.This is what we speak,not in words taught

us by human wisdom,but in words taught by the

spirit,expressing spiritual truth in spiritual words. The man

without the spirit does not accept the things that come from

the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him,and he cannot

understand them,because they are spiritually discerned. The

spiritual man makes judgements about all things, but he

himself is not subject to any man's judgement. For who has

known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?

But we have the mind of Christ.

 God was about to bring judgement upon the earth per the

flood in Enochs time. He gave Enoch knowledge of Spiritual truth

from His throne. The Lord 'took' him..so he would not see death

the death he was spared was the awesome judgement of God

coming upon the world that was then.  For, the righteous are

taken away to be spared the great evil that is to come. A time

ws coming quickly were the thoughts of men were only evil all

the time, God spared Enoch from that expierence of death,also

 and how?..because God took him. For I tell you, two women

will be working at the hand mill, one will be taken and the other

left.

two men in a bed..one will be taken,the other left. In this way,

the spirit of God takes us..when we go to His throne and He

declares spiritual truths to us.

 :cloud9:  :thumbsup:

Quote from: sheila on November 25, 2009, 06:32:12 PM
well, I think it is a real possibility that God did 'take' Enoch and Elijah so they would not see death.

Sheila, then I have the same question for you as I had for Cardinal: What about John 3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

 Do you not know that we have access to the throne of God

through Christ?.....Paul said I KNOW A MAN THAT WAS CAUGHT

UP TO THE THRONE OF GOD TO THE THIRD HEAVEN.

   WHETHER IN THE BODY OR OUT, I DO NOT KNOW.

   Do you not know that you must be 'born again' from above?

   If it is a rebirth or again..then you were with Him from the

beginning before you were lowered into this death realm.


   All of mankind is of Christ's body,coz all that belongs to the

  Father was given him. Whether dead or alive we are Christ's

  and if a member of His body, we have been with Him from the

beginning[even before He descended to earth].


   No-one has ever gone into heaven except the one who come

from heaven- the SON OF MAN.


    In the scriptures  other men are called SON OF MAN...

  the son of man is the regenerated promised seed of which all

men will bear the image of. A son of man[Adam], brought into

being by our kinsman redeemer. See Deut 25;5-7  If brothers

are living togather and one of them dies without a son, his

widow must not marry outside the family.Her husbands brother

shall take her and marry her and fulfill the duty of a brother-in-

law for her. THE FIRST SON SHE BEARS WILL CARRY ON THE

NAME OF THE DEAD BROTHER, SO THAT HIS NAME WILL NOT BE

BLOTTED OUT FROM ISRAEL.

   Adam=man...thus SON OF MAN

   

 
 see what you are saying Sis ..
she is my sister  :HeartThrob:


Jhn 1:51   And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.  

angels / messengers  Enoch had a good testimony / witness to others  :thumbsup:

 :cloud9: :thumbsup:

   that reminds me of Jacobs ladder account. with angels ascending and descending


   Gen 28;12  he had a dream in which he saw a stairway

resting on the earth,with it's top reaching to heaven[can anyone

sing 'I'm climbing the stairway to heaven?']



    and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it


  There above it,stood the Lord and He said ' I am the God of

Abraham and the God of Isaac, I will give to you and your

descendants the land on which you are lying.Your descendants

will be like the dust of the earth,and you will spread out to the

north to the east to the west and to the south..........

....


  v 16  when Jacob awoke from his sleep,he thought,

  surely the Lord is in this place and I was not aware of it.

  He was afraid and said,'how awesome is this place! This is

none other than the house of God, this IS THE GATE OF HEAVEN


    And Jacob rose up early and took the STONE that he had

put for his pillows, and sat it up for a pillar[ thinking of the

stone on which Christ would raise his church..that which is

revealed by God,unto Peter, for He said, Blessed art thou Peter,

for flesh and blood did not reveal this unto you, but the Father

in heaven]   AND POURED OIL UPON THE TOP OF IT


   And he called the name of that place  Bethel, but the name of

that city was called Luz at first    3870/3869 some kind of nut

tree,perhaps the almond[Strongs].

   Sos 6;11  Let us go down to the grove of nut trees, to look at the new growth in the valley.

  v 10  why would you gaze on the Shulamite as on the dance of Mahanaim

   Genesis 32;2 Jacob also went on his way, and the angels of God met him. When Jacob saw them,he said ' This is the camp of God! So he named that place Mahanaim

  Rev 20;9  They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the 'CAMP" of God's people, the city He loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them

 Jhn 1:51   And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.  

I saw that in a vision once, just upon awakening.  It became clear to me who/what the meaning of "angels of God" are and how they ascend and descend even now.  This was what I'd call an open vision/epiphany - hard to explain.  I just remember how amazed I felt by seeing this.   The Head was in heaven -- the feet in the earth.... the body many membered... the angels ministering spirits to the whole body.

 Good Morning,Anne

   There's nothing like His spirit for teaching,is there?

   Our Father is an awesome God!!! And we are 'wonderfully'

   made. 

   When He ascended on high, He led captives in His train

  and gave GIFTS TO MEN.


   Thanking Father for HIS Gift In You and other members of the

   Body. :bgdance:

   Have a Happy Thanksgiving,Anne

                                       

         

I thank God for you as well, dear Sheila :LoveH1: and for the many members of the family of God.   :grouppray:

Hope you had a warm and wonderful day of Thanksgiving day.

Luz means "turning," as it may have been a point at which the road turned.  It is the place of "turning," from sin, and the world, the flesh and the devil -- in the rest from that -- the "house of God" Bethel is made known.  Access to God and God to us, messengers of glory ascending and descending, the oil on the rock is where there is a repentant heart and a contrite spirit asleep to Adam but awakening to the heavenlies.

Some of the newer versions have put the word "descendents" in Genesis 28 instead of "seed."  You'll have to ask them for why, but I have some very good guesses.

Galatians 3:16, 27-29 (AV)

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 24, 2009, 06:03:42 AM

Where did Enoch go?

To heaven....
http://reluctant-messenger.com/1enoch61-105.htm#Chapter70

1Afterwards my spirit was concealed, ascending into the heavens. I beheld the sons of the holy angels treading on flaming fire, whose garments and robes were white, and whose countenances were transparent as crystal.

2I saw two rivers of fire glittering like the hyacinth.

3Then I fell on my face before the Lord of spirits.

4And Michael, one of the archangels, took me by my right hand, raised me up, and brought me out to where was every secret of mercy and secret of righteousness.

5He showed me all the hidden things of the extremities of heaven, all the receptacles of the stars, and the splendours of all, from whence they went forth before the face of the holy.

6And he concealed the spirit of Enoch in the heaven of heavens.
7There I beheld, in the midst of that light, a building raised with stones of ice;

8And in the midst of these stone vibrations (72) of living fire. My spirit saw around the circle of this flaming habitation, on one of its extremities, that there were rivers full of living fire, which encompassed it.

(72) Vibrations. Literally, "tongues" (Laurence, p. 90).

9Then the Seraphim, the Cherubim, and Ophanin (73) surrounded it: these are those who never sleep, but watch the throne of his glory.

(73) Ophanin. The "wheels" of Ezek. 1:15-21 (Charles, p. 162).

10And I beheld angels innumerable, thousands of thousands, and myriads and myriads, who surrounded that habitation.

11Michael, Raphael, Gabriel, Phanuel and the holy angels who were in the heavens above, went in and out of it. Michael, Raphael, and Gabriel went out of that habitation, and holy angels innumerable.

12With them was the Ancient of days, whose head was white as wool, and pure, and his robe was indescribable.

13Then I fell upon my face, while all my flesh was dissolved, and my spirit became changed.

14I cried out with a loud voice, with a powerful spirit, blessing, glorifying, and exalting.

15And those blessings, which proceeded from my mouth, became acceptable in the presence of the Ancient of days.

16The Ancient of days came with Michael and Gabriel, Raphael and Phanuel, with thousands of thousands, and myriads and myriads, which could not be numbered.

17Then that angel came to me, and with his voice saluted me, saying, You are the Son of man, (74) who art born for righteousness, and righteousness has rested upon you.

(74) Son of man. Laurence's original translation renders this phrase "offspring of man." Knibb (p. 166) and Charles (p. 185) indicate that it should be "Son of man," consistent with the other occurrences of that term in the Book of Enoch.

18The righteousness of the Ancient of days shall not forsake you.

19He said, On you shall he confer peace in the name of the existing world; for from thence has peace gone forth since the world was created.

20And thus shall it happen to you for ever and ever.

21All who shall exist, and who shall walk in your path of righteousness, shall not forsake you for ever.

22With you shall be their habitations, with you their lot; nor from you shall they be separated for ever and ever.

23And thus shall length of days be with the Son of man. (75)

(75) Son of man. Literally, "offspring of man," or "the Christ who comes from the offspring of man."

24Peace shall be to the righteous; and the path of integrity shall the righteous pursue, in the name of the Lord of spirits, for ever and ever.

Quote from: sheila on November 25, 2009, 11:51:42 PM
Do you not know that we have access to the throne of God

through Christ?.....Paul said I KNOW A MAN THAT WAS CAUGHT

UP TO THE THRONE OF GOD TO THE THIRD HEAVEN.

   WHETHER IN THE BODY OR OUT, I DO NOT KNOW.

   Do you not know that you must be 'born again' from above?

   If it is a rebirth or again..then you were with Him from the

beginning before you were lowered into this death realm.


   All of mankind is of Christ's body,coz all that belongs to the

  Father was given him. Whether dead or alive we are Christ's

  and if a member of His body, we have been with Him from the

beginning[even before He descended to earth].


   No-one has ever gone into heaven except the one who come

from heaven- the SON OF MAN.


    In the scriptures  other men are called SON OF MAN...

  the son of man is the regenerated promised seed of which all

men will bear the image of. A son of man[Adam], brought into

being by our kinsman redeemer. See Deut 25;5-7  If brothers

are living togather and one of them dies without a son, his

widow must not marry outside the family.Her husbands brother

shall take her and marry her and fulfill the duty of a brother-in-

law for her. THE FIRST SON SHE BEARS WILL CARRY ON THE

NAME OF THE DEAD BROTHER, SO THAT HIS NAME WILL NOT BE

BLOTTED OUT FROM ISRAEL.

   Adam=man...thus SON OF MAN

   

Interesting Adam = son of man. This supports my theory that Adam = Mankind as a group, that God named THEM Adam, thus when God creates a vessel for a Spirit to dwell in,(possibly called Adam also) then he calls the soul(spirit+flesh) son of man.