Hi everybody,
I hope everyone is well. It's been too long since I've posted here, but life has been very busy lately. Anyways, I have kind of just realized that a lot of websites have entire sections dedicated to debunking other teachers and exposing them as false prophets. Now I know we are supposed to "expose those who contradict", but I feel like some people take it so far as to declare every teacher who believes the slightest difference than they do a false prophet.
Many ETers do this, and Calvinists and Arminians are in a constant battle to "expose" each other, but I have even noticed this on websites that promote UR. I really enjoy L. Ray Smith's website and his videos, but I feel like he was hostile to anyone who disagreed with him on anything. Now he had some very nasty critics, for which he gave very justified blunt replies, but there are some emails on his site that came from honest truth seekers, and he didn't exactly come off as friendly in some of his replies.
I also recently discovered a site called thepathoftruth.com, which seems to be a good UR site. They, however, have an entire page with a list of false teachers they are dedicated to exposing. Many of the names on there are without a doubt false prophets who are proven liars, adulterers, money grubbers, etc. But they also condemn many others just for having a different belief than they do, however slight as it may be. They even call Gary a false prophet, as well as Martin Zender and L. Ray Smith. They say that Gary denies that God can speak through men today, which I have never seen Gary say.
So maybe I am just spiritually immature and can't see the necessity in that. But does God want to go all out in exposing every little flaw in the teachings of our brothers and sisters in Christ? Once again, I know Paul said to expose those who contradict, but he also said not to quarrel over minor interpretations of scripture so the unity in the Body of Christ isn't broken up.
Quote from: Warhawk17 on September 12, 2013, 09:21:56 AM
I really enjoy L. Ray Smith's website and his videos, but I feel like he was hostile to anyone who disagreed with him on anything. Now he had some very nasty critics, for which he gave very justified blunt replies, but there are some emails on his site that came from honest truth seekers, and he didn't exactly come off as friendly in some of his replies.
Yeah, Ray usually used the blunt ax approach. When a seeker asked he gave polite answer but if that seeker used just one verse he didn't like :punish:
QuoteI also recently discovered a site called thepathoftruth.com, which seems to be a good UR site.
One of the site owners was a member here for a short while. Regardless of his message it was pure venom an superiority complex disguised as spreading the Gospel.
Yeah I hear you warhawk. Probably in some cases it's necessary... in others probably not so much. It takes the leading of His Spirit for sure. :HeartThrob:
Hi Warhawk17!
I think you have, as they say, hit the nail on the head!
I've seen the same thing before, when someone may be sincerely asking a question about the faith, they got back somewhat of a snarky answer, which likely had the opposite effect from what the Spirit of God would have intended..
I'm thinking this is from being in the debate a long time and experiencing many darts and arrows from others because of it.. and so a small root of bitterness rises up.. I think we all do well to guard against that!
The "Amplified Bible" when, in Galatians (ch 5) is listed the fruit of the Spirit, preceded by the fruits of the flesh, or more accurately, the fruits of the un-regenerated human tendencies (it can't be "flesh"as "matter" because if so why did God say after creation.. of planets, birds, animals.. people.. "behold it's all good!"? the gnostics carried this one too far, saying it was a falling into matter which all needed to be saved from, and not from a fallen, flawed and imperfect nature)
But.. I'm straying.. the amplified Bible lists "party spirit" like sects and divisions, as a fruit of the lower nature, as opposed to being a fruit of the Spirit..
Perhaps some get caught up in the idea that a spirit of criticism and division is really the gift of "discerning of spirits" but! We can tell something by its fruit!
How terrible that a seeker of truth, coming across all this, should be repelled by this spirit of division..
If we made a list of true doctrine and doctrinal error, I'm afraid every single believer would find our selves under each column!!
Now most of us know that someone going around saying, no matter what you believe.. no matter what religion.. they all are saved, most would agree that is a false doctrine and teaching (and of course that's what likely most e.t. folks think UR is about) :laughing7: :eek:
...and some folks seem to think everything is a salvation issue.. if you don't believe in 'hell'.. if you don't believe in inherent immortality.. or if you do.. etc.. etc.. you will surely be lost.. burn in 'hell' etc.. etc..
I think you said it accurately, Paul said to contend for the faith.. but also "not to squabble over minor interpretations of scripture so the unity in the Body of Christ isn't broken up" - Somewhere between the two (poles, often true of many issues?) is the proper balance..
:Peace2:
I've been a spiritual hermit.. I had to 'google' Calvinis, and Arminianism, tho I had a little bit of an inkling of what Calvinism is..
As I read through Calvinism here: it includes how God is perfect and He ((too)) can only choose what is in, or conforms to His nature..
..then it mentions some not chosen, so chosen for hell..
That to me is SO illogical!! It makes the heavenly Father out to be some (sort of, but no we can leave out the sort of) monster.. heartless.. uncaring.. even if it were to be that the un-chosen were chosen to perish / annihilation.. still.. uncaring, heartless would seem to be in His nature. Impossible. yes?
Then it mentions two types of "the call" the outer which is often and usually rejected.. and the inner call (to the elect from God) which cannot be rejected.. I agree. But, why the outer call at all then? I'm sure there is reason for ev-er-y thing God does and chooses to do and for how He chooses to do it.
And when I read about Arminianism which seems to say it pretty much depends on man's will.. I mean 'they' say it's an equal formula, God's wooing and Grace, and man's choice/free will in the matter, but ultimately, doesn't that idea really say it's dependent upon what man chooses - in regard to salvation - but then again how can it be a real free will choice, if someone does not fully understand that to choose one way is to choose for their self annihilation, or worse..! ..I'm confusing myself now!
I want to paste what I read and learned.. didn't know if I should post it here or under new topic but decided here as Calvinism and Arminianism were mentioned here which sent me off to search.. it's likely long but I found it to be so interesting..
:eek: Long..
[COPIED & PASTED, all]
-- [from: http://www.challies.com/articles/an-introduction-to-calvinism-arminianism-part-2 (http://www.challies.com/articles/an-introduction-to-calvinism-arminianism-part-2)]
CALVINISM - John Calvin (1509 - 1564) was born in France, but lived most of his life in Geneva Switzerland. Though a contemporary of Martin Luther, he was a generation removed and never met
him. Calvin, like Luther, formed theology that was based on an understanding of the errors of Roman Catholicism, specifically the belief in a works-based salvation. Calvin's "Institutes of the
Christian Religion," which laid the foundation for his system of theology, were first published in 1536.
A proper understanding of Calvinism is fully dependant on understanding Calvin's view of man's depravity. He taught that man, who once enjoyed perfect fellowship and communion with God, had
his very nature changed through the fall into sin. This not only destroyed the communion between God and man, but also removed the ability of man to have communion with God. Man's nature became
so wholly corrupt as to leave him unable to choose against his nature. A fallen man is able to choose to do what he wants, but is unable to want God. There is a misconception that Calvinists do not
believe in human free will, but this is not true. Calvinism teaches that free will exists, but is bound by a man's nature. Man is a slave not to God, but to his own nature. Because man does not want God,
he can never choose Him. Only God, in His Sovereign free will, can change man's nature and make him capable of repentance.
The five points of Calvinism are often summarized in the acronym T.U.L.I.P. - Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints
Genesis 6:5 - God saw that the intent of every heart was only continual evil.
Genesis 8:21 - The intent of every heart is evil from its youth.
Isaiah 64:6-7 - There is no one who calls on God's name or stirs himself to take hold of God.
Jeremiah 17:9 - The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked.
John 3:19 - Men loved darkness rather than light because their hearts are evil.
Romans 3:10-18 - There is none righteous. There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside.
Romans 8:8 - Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
1 Corinthians 2:14 - The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God and cannot know them because they are spiritually discerned.
Ephesians 2:1-3 - God made us alive when we were dead in our sin. We once walked in sin and were children of wrath.
2 Timothy 2:25,26 - We have been taken captive by the devil to do his will and if we are granted repentance God will bring us to our senses and help us escape.
Matthew 11:27 - No one knows the Father except the Son and the ones to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.
Matthew 13:11 - To some it has been given to know God, but to others it has not.
Matthew 15:13 - God is the one who does the planting.
Matthew 20:23 - God has ordained who will sit at His right and His left.
Mark 13:20 - God chose the elect.
Luke 10:21,22 - God chooses to whom He will reveal the plan of salvation based on what seems good in His sight.
Luke 12:32 - It is God's pleasure to give some the kingdom.
Luke 13:24 - Some seek but may not enter.
John 5:21 - The Son gives life to whom He will.
John 6:44 - No one can come to the Son except those who are first drawn by the Father.
John 6:65 - No one can come to the Son unless it has been granted by the Father.
John 8:43-47 - The children of the devil cannot understand Christ's teaching.
John 10:26-30 - Christ's sheep know His voice and thus follow Him. Those who are not His sheep cannot follow Him.
John 12:37-40 - The people were kept from believing in order to fulfill Isaiah's prophecy.
John 13:18 - I know whom I have chosen. Christ did not choose Judas.
John 15:16 - You did not choose Me, but I chose you.
John 17:6 - Some were given to Christ by the Father for eternal life.
Acts 13:48 - As many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Romans 8:28-30 - Those who were predestined were called, justified and glorified.
Romans 9:11-13 - God chose Jacob before his birth, not based on his works.
Galatians 1:15 - Paul was set apart by God from his mother's womb.
1 Corinthians 1:26-29 - Those who believe are first called.
Ephesians 1:3-5 - He chose us before the foundation of the world, having predestined us to adoption according to the good pleasure of His will.
Ephesians 1:11 - We have been predestined according to the purpose of His will to receive an inheritance.
Ephesians 2:4-7 - God made us alive while we were still dead.
Colossians 1:26, 27 - God willed to make Christ known to the saints.
Colossians 3:12 - As the elect of God.
1 Thessalonians 1:4 - Knowing your election by God.
2 Thessalonians 13,14 - From the beginning God chose some for salvation.
2 Timothy 1:9 - God has saved us and called us according to His own purpose.
Hebrews 9:15 - Those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
1 Peter 1:1,2 - Elected according to God's foreknowledge.
1 Peter 2:7,8 - Some have been predestined to hell.
Jude 4 - Some were predestined for condemnation.
Psalm 34:22 - The Lord redeems the soul of His servants.
Isaiah 53:8 - For the transgressions of His people He was stricken.
Matthew 1:21 - He will save His people from their sins.
Matthew 20:28 - To give His life as a ransom for many (not all).
Mark 14:24 - Christ's blood is shed for many.
John 10:11 - Christ is the good shepherd and gave His life for the sheep.
John 13:1 - Christ loved His own.
Luke 1:68 - He has visited and redeemed His people.
John 17:9 - Christ prays for those whom the Father has given Him.
Acts 20:28 - Christ purchased the church (the body of believers) with His blood.
Romans 4:24 - It was imputed to those who believe in Christ.
Romans 5:6-8 - Christ demonstrates His love to us (those who believe).
Romans 5:19 - As all fell through Adam, so many will be made righteous.
Ephesians 5:2 - Christ gave Himself for us (the believers).
Ephesians 5:25 - Christ loved the church and gave His life for her.
Hebrews 10:14 - His offering was for those who are being sanctified.
Revelation 5:9 - Christ's redemption was for some out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
John 6:37-39 - God has given the elect to Christ.
John 6:44 - No one can come unless the Father draws him.
Ephesians 2:1-10 - While we were still dead God made us alive.
Philippians 2:12-13 - God works in us the desire to do good.
John 1:12-13 - We are born not of our own will but of the will of God.
Romans 8:8 - Those who are in the flesh cannot please God (which means regeneration must precede faith and repentance).
Romans 9:19 - We cannot resist God's will.
1 Corinthians 15:10 - It is only by God's grace that Paul is a believer.
Matthew 24:24 - It is not possible to deceive the elect to nullify their salvation. (see also Mark 13:22)
Luke 15:11-32 - The prodigal son falls away for a time, but not permanently.
John 3:36 - He who has God has everlasting life
John 4:14 - Whoever receives the water of Christ will never thirst again.
John 6:39 - It is God's will that of all He gives Christ, none should perish.
John 10:28 - Jesus gives believers eternal life and they shall never perish.
Romans 8:28-30 - Those whom God calls He also justifies and glorifies.
Romans 11:29 - The calling and gifts of God are irrevocable.
1 Corinthians 1:8 - Christ will confirm us to the end.
Philippians 1:6 - He who has begun a good work in you will complete it.
1 Thessalonians 5:23,24 - God, who calls us, is faithful and will preserve us until Christ comes.
2 Thessalonians 3:4 - Paul has confidence that God will preserve them.
2 Timothy 4:18 - The Lord will preserve me for His heavenly kingdom.
Hebrews 10:14 - By His offering Christ has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
1 John 2:19 - If they were of us they would have remained with us.
Revelation 3:5 - Names cannot be blotted from the book of life.
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-- [from: http://www.challies.com/articles/an-introduction-to-calvinism-arminianism-part-3 (http://www.challies.com/articles/an-introduction-to-calvinism-arminianism-part-3)]
ARMINIANISM - five points of (was in response to Calvinism) Free will, Conditional Election, Universal Atonement, Obstructable Grace, Falling from Grace [COPIED & PASTED]
Jacobus Arminius (1559 - 1609) was born in The Netherlands and spent the majority of his life as a pastor in that country. From the beginning of his pastorate he came under fire for teaching
theology that was contrary to Calvinism, which was already a well-established system of theology. He taught that human free will and God's sovereignty could be reconciled and also denied the
doctrine of Irresistible Grace. As Calvinism can not be understood without a proper understanding of man's depravity, so Arminianism is dependent on understanding human free will.
- - American Heritage dictionary defines it as follows (emphasis added):
1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
neither is a full meaning as it pertains to theology
- - For a will to be truly free there must be an alternative to what the person in question actually chose. A person who is presented with only one option does not truly have free will. Calvin taught
that man is free to choose but only within the bounds of his nature. Arminius believed that this was not true free will. For free will to exist man must be able to of his own accord choose or reject God.
- - Arminius taught that man's fall into sin has not completely removed his ability to make a choice for or against God. Rather, man's will is in a neutral state and is not able to choose only evil. The
will is free to make a choice for either good or evil. In salvation, then, the Spirit draws people sufficiently and enlightens them enough that they can, of their own free will, choose salvation. However, He does not draw or enlighten them enough to force them into a decision. Developing faith is a human act and is man's gift to God.
Matthew 18:12,13 - He rejoices if he finds one of the lost sheep.
Matthew 23:37 - Jesus longs to gather the people to Him but they are not willing.
Luke 15:11-32 - The prodigal son came to the realization of his depravity by himself.
John 3:16 - "whoever believes in Him" would seem to indicate we choose to believe in Him.
John 5:40 - You are not willing to come to Me so you may have life.
John 7:17 - If anyone chooses (wills) to do God's will
Acts 2:38 - after their choice to be baptized they would receive the Holy Spirit.
Acts 16:31 - Paul and Silas told the jailer that if he were to repent and baptized he would be saved, seemingly indicating that he was given the choice of repentance.
Romans 10:9 - Free will is indicated in that we are told that if we believe with our hearts and confess with our lips we will be saved.
Arminians teach that God's election is based upon his foreknowledge that a person would choose to be saved. In the wide scope of eternity God saw those who would choose Christ and in response to
this act of human free will, God in turn chose them and called them the elect. We see that election is conditional upon free will because God has to see that a person will make a free will decision in
the future before He is able to impart salvation to that person. The decision to be saved, then, is ultimately a human decision and not an act of God.
Romans 8:29 - Those who He foreknew, He predestined.
Romans 11:2 - God foreknew His people.
1 Peter 1:1,2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.
The belief is when Christ died he took upon Himself every sin for every human being throughout time. This is not to say, though, that all humans are saved. Therefore, Christ's sacrifice does not
actually save individuals but only provides the potential for every individual to be saved. Christ's death will only provide salvation when it is completed by a free will decision made by a human. A
simple formula to express this would be, Christ's sacrifice + Human's free will choice = salvation. Salvation cannot be completed without both of the pieces being in place. Again we see that
atonement is conditional upon free will, as humans are able to freely choose or reject atonement.
John 1:12 - Those who received him were given the right to become children of God.
John 1:29 - John calls Jesus the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" not just the sin of the elect.
John 3:16 - God so loved the world, not just the elect.
John 12:32 - I will draw all peoples too myself.
Matthew 18:14 - It is not God's will that any of His sheep should perish.
Romans 11:32 - So God might have mercy on all.
1 Corinthians 15:22 - As all fell in Adam so all are saved in Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:14, 15 - One died for all.
1 Timothy 2:3-6 - God desires all to be saved and gave His Son as a ransom for all.
1 Timothy 4:10 - God is the Savior of all men, especially those who believe.
Hebrews 2:9 - Christ tasted death for everyone.
2 Peter 2:1 - Jesus "bought" even the false prophets.
2 Peter 3:9 - God does not will that any should perish, but that all should be saved.
1 John 2:2 - Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.
The fourth foundation of Arminian teaching is that God never forces salvation upon anyone. Though the Holy Spirit is instrumental in salvation, He does not force anyone into repentance. The
Spirit merely woos people who are then free to choose for or against the gift of salvation. The process of salvation is this: The Spirit woos people. Man in his free will chooses to believe in Christ.
Having believed, he then begins to exercise faith. As a result of these actions, the Holy Spirit regenerates him. Faith, therefore, precedes regeneration and is actually the cause of regeneration.
Faith is what allows the Holy Spirit to do His regenerative work in the new believer. As with the other points we see that free will is fundamental.
Matthew 23:37 - Christ longs to gather Jerusalem, but they are not willing.
Luke 7:30 - The Pharisees and lawyers rejected God's will for themselves.
John 1:12 - To those who received Him who already believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God.
John 3:18-21 - This would seem to indicate that works precede faith.
John 5:40 - We come to God and then are given life.
Acts 7:51 - You resist the Spirit as your fathers did.
2 Corinthians 6:1 - Do not receive the grace of God in vain.
1 Thessalonians 5:19 - Do not quench the Spirit.
Therefor can Fall from Grace.
Matthew 5:13 - Salt can lose its flavor (see also Mark 9:50).
John 15:1-7 - Vines can be cut off and burned if they don't bear fruit.
Romans 11:22 - If we don't continue in goodness we will be cut off.
2 Corinthians 11:4 - The people have fallen away and Paul tries to bring them back.
Galatians 5:4 - Paul says that those who have tried to be justified by the law have fallen from grace.
Hebrews 6:4-6 - The passage discusses how it is possible to fall away from God.
2 Peter 1:8-10 - It is possible to forget our salvation.
2 Peter 2:20-22 - It is better not to know the way of righteousness than to know it and turn from it.
Revelation 2:5 - God threatens to remove the church's lampstand if they do not repent.
What think ye? One right? other wrong? both some right, some wrong? :gsmile:
another member put it so well earlier this year that I copied it and am re presenting it to you.
The 5 points of Ultimate Reconciliation
The Calvinist have five points(TULIP) that define their basic beliefs concerning salvation. The Christian Universalist also have five points(TUUIP) that define their basic beliefs concerning salvation. Here they are as follows:
TOTAL INABILITY--The unregenerate man is dead in his sins(Ephesians 2:1). Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the unregenerate man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel(2Corinthians 4:3-4). The natural man without the Spirit of God is unable to come to Christ, until God makes him alive through Christ(1Corinthians 2:14; 1Corinthians 15:22-23; Ephesians 2:1-5).
UNCONDITIONAL SALVATION--Salvation is by God alone as He sovereignly chooses those He will save. He saves the elect(body of Christ)in this age(The church age-Pentecost;Ephesians 1:3-5); He saves the non elect(unbelievers or the rest of mankind) in the coming ages or eons(The Fall Harvest or The Ingathering;Ephesians 1:10;1Corinthians 15:22-28; Exodus 23:14-16). God's choice is based on His good pleasure and grace, not on any human individual merit, or forseen faith(John 15:16; Ephesians 2:8; James 1:17).
UNIVERSAL ATONEMENT--Jesus Christ died for all mankind, and thereby actually secured salvation for all mankind. The death, burial, and resurrection of the Lamb of God was a propitiatory sacrifice which was in effect payment for the sins and guilt of all mankind(1John 2:2; 1Timothy 2:5-6; Romans 5:18-19; John 1:29; Revelation 14:10;).
4.IRRESISTIBLE GRACE--God will effectually call all men to Himself and will sovereignly bring them to salvation. No on will be lost forever(Lamentations 3:31-33). God will not force men to Himself. God will draw all men to Himself through His love and grace expressed in the power of the Cross(John 12:32-33; Acts 17:30-31; Isaiah45:21-24; Psalm 90:3 1Timothy 1:14-15).
5.PERSERVERANCE OF GOD--God is patient and longsuffering towards all of us. God never gives up on any of us(1Corinthians 13:3-8; Romans 2:3-4). God's mercy endures always(Psalm 118:29; Psalm 100:5; 1Chronicles 16:33-34). God will seek out sinners until He is completely successful: until everyone has submitted their will to Him(Luke15:4-10; Psalm 66:3-4; Philippians 3:21). If you agree with these five points, then you believe in the salvation of all through Jesus Christ. This belief has many names: Christian Universalism, Biblical Universalism, Universal Reconciliation, The Blessed Hope, and the earliest name--Apocatastasis. The church calls this belief heresy. If it is a heresy, then in my opinion, it is a most beautiful, wonderful and glorious heresy. Blessings.
In another life, Ray Smith was very helpful in being to light much of what I have learnt from the bible. However, his caustic approach to those who disagreed always left a bad taste in my mouth. Where was the love?
But here is the lesson, while ever any choose to list others as less than themselves, they have only shown the shortfall of love in their hearts.
Love Julie : :HeartThrob:
Quote from: marie glen on September 12, 2013, 06:26:08 PM
:eek: Long..
[COPIED & PASTED, all]
-- [from: http://www.challies.com/articles/an-introduction-to-calvinism-arminianism-part-2 (http://www.challies.com/articles/an-introduction-to-calvinism-arminianism-part-2)]
CALVINISM - John Calvin (1509 - 1564) was born in France, but lived most of his life in Geneva Switzerland. Though a contemporary of Martin Luther, he was a generation removed and never met
him. Calvin, like Luther, formed theology that was based on an understanding of the errors of Roman Catholicism, specifically the belief in a works-based salvation. Calvin's "Institutes of the
Christian Religion," which laid the foundation for his system of theology, were first published in 1536.
A proper understanding of Calvinism is fully dependant on understanding Calvin's view of man's depravity. He taught that man, who once enjoyed perfect fellowship and communion with God, had
his very nature changed through the fall into sin. This not only destroyed the communion between God and man, but also removed the ability of man to have communion with God. Man's nature became
so wholly corrupt as to leave him unable to choose against his nature. A fallen man is able to choose to do what he wants, but is unable to want God. There is a misconception that Calvinists do not
believe in human free will, but this is not true. Calvinism teaches that free will exists, but is bound by a man's nature. Man is a slave not to God, but to his own nature. Because man does not want God,
he can never choose Him. Only God, in His Sovereign free will, can change man's nature and make him capable of repentance.
The five points of Calvinism are often summarized in the acronym T.U.L.I.P. - Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints
Genesis 6:5 - God saw that the intent of every heart was only continual evil.
Genesis 8:21 - The intent of every heart is evil from its youth.
Isaiah 64:6-7 - There is no one who calls on God's name or stirs himself to take hold of God.
Jeremiah 17:9 - The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked.
John 3:19 - Men loved darkness rather than light because their hearts are evil.
Romans 3:10-18 - There is none righteous. There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside.
Romans 8:8 - Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
1 Corinthians 2:14 - The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God and cannot know them because they are spiritually discerned.
Ephesians 2:1-3 - God made us alive when we were dead in our sin. We once walked in sin and were children of wrath.
2 Timothy 2:25,26 - We have been taken captive by the devil to do his will and if we are granted repentance God will bring us to our senses and help us escape.
Matthew 11:27 - No one knows the Father except the Son and the ones to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.
Matthew 13:11 - To some it has been given to know God, but to others it has not.
Matthew 15:13 - God is the one who does the planting.
Matthew 20:23 - God has ordained who will sit at His right and His left.
Mark 13:20 - God chose the elect.
Luke 10:21,22 - God chooses to whom He will reveal the plan of salvation based on what seems good in His sight.
Luke 12:32 - It is God's pleasure to give some the kingdom.
Luke 13:24 - Some seek but may not enter.
John 5:21 - The Son gives life to whom He will.
John 6:44 - No one can come to the Son except those who are first drawn by the Father.
John 6:65 - No one can come to the Son unless it has been granted by the Father.
John 8:43-47 - The children of the devil cannot understand Christ's teaching.
John 10:26-30 - Christ's sheep know His voice and thus follow Him. Those who are not His sheep cannot follow Him.
John 12:37-40 - The people were kept from believing in order to fulfill Isaiah's prophecy.
John 13:18 - I know whom I have chosen. Christ did not choose Judas.
John 15:16 - You did not choose Me, but I chose you.
John 17:6 - Some were given to Christ by the Father for eternal life.
Acts 13:48 - As many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Romans 8:28-30 - Those who were predestined were called, justified and glorified.
Romans 9:11-13 - God chose Jacob before his birth, not based on his works.
Galatians 1:15 - Paul was set apart by God from his mother's womb.
1 Corinthians 1:26-29 - Those who believe are first called.
Ephesians 1:3-5 - He chose us before the foundation of the world, having predestined us to adoption according to the good pleasure of His will.
Ephesians 1:11 - We have been predestined according to the purpose of His will to receive an inheritance.
Ephesians 2:4-7 - God made us alive while we were still dead.
Colossians 1:26, 27 - God willed to make Christ known to the saints.
Colossians 3:12 - As the elect of God.
1 Thessalonians 1:4 - Knowing your election by God.
2 Thessalonians 13,14 - From the beginning God chose some for salvation.
2 Timothy 1:9 - God has saved us and called us according to His own purpose.
Hebrews 9:15 - Those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
1 Peter 1:1,2 - Elected according to God's foreknowledge.
1 Peter 2:7,8 - Some have been predestined to hell.
Jude 4 - Some were predestined for condemnation.
Psalm 34:22 - The Lord redeems the soul of His servants.
Isaiah 53:8 - For the transgressions of His people He was stricken.
Matthew 1:21 - He will save His people from their sins.
Matthew 20:28 - To give His life as a ransom for many (not all).
Mark 14:24 - Christ's blood is shed for many.
John 10:11 - Christ is the good shepherd and gave His life for the sheep.
John 13:1 - Christ loved His own.
Luke 1:68 - He has visited and redeemed His people.
John 17:9 - Christ prays for those whom the Father has given Him.
Acts 20:28 - Christ purchased the church (the body of believers) with His blood.
Romans 4:24 - It was imputed to those who believe in Christ.
Romans 5:6-8 - Christ demonstrates His love to us (those who believe).
Romans 5:19 - As all fell through Adam, so many will be made righteous.
Ephesians 5:2 - Christ gave Himself for us (the believers).
Ephesians 5:25 - Christ loved the church and gave His life for her.
Hebrews 10:14 - His offering was for those who are being sanctified.
Revelation 5:9 - Christ's redemption was for some out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
John 6:37-39 - God has given the elect to Christ.
John 6:44 - No one can come unless the Father draws him.
Ephesians 2:1-10 - While we were still dead God made us alive.
Philippians 2:12-13 - God works in us the desire to do good.
John 1:12-13 - We are born not of our own will but of the will of God.
Romans 8:8 - Those who are in the flesh cannot please God (which means regeneration must precede faith and repentance).
Romans 9:19 - We cannot resist God's will.
1 Corinthians 15:10 - It is only by God's grace that Paul is a believer.
Matthew 24:24 - It is not possible to deceive the elect to nullify their salvation. (see also Mark 13:22)
Luke 15:11-32 - The prodigal son falls away for a time, but not permanently.
John 3:36 - He who has God has everlasting life
John 4:14 - Whoever receives the water of Christ will never thirst again.
John 6:39 - It is God's will that of all He gives Christ, none should perish.
John 10:28 - Jesus gives believers eternal life and they shall never perish.
Romans 8:28-30 - Those whom God calls He also justifies and glorifies.
Romans 11:29 - The calling and gifts of God are irrevocable.
1 Corinthians 1:8 - Christ will confirm us to the end.
Philippians 1:6 - He who has begun a good work in you will complete it.
1 Thessalonians 5:23,24 - God, who calls us, is faithful and will preserve us until Christ comes.
2 Thessalonians 3:4 - Paul has confidence that God will preserve them.
2 Timothy 4:18 - The Lord will preserve me for His heavenly kingdom.
Hebrews 10:14 - By His offering Christ has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
1 John 2:19 - If they were of us they would have remained with us.
Revelation 3:5 - Names cannot be blotted from the book of life.
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-- [from: http://www.challies.com/articles/an-introduction-to-calvinism-arminianism-part-3 (http://www.challies.com/articles/an-introduction-to-calvinism-arminianism-part-3)]
ARMINIANISM - five points of (was in response to Calvinism) Free will, Conditional Election, Universal Atonement, Obstructable Grace, Falling from Grace [COPIED & PASTED]
Jacobus Arminius (1559 - 1609) was born in The Netherlands and spent the majority of his life as a pastor in that country. From the beginning of his pastorate he came under fire for teaching
theology that was contrary to Calvinism, which was already a well-established system of theology. He taught that human free will and God's sovereignty could be reconciled and also denied the
doctrine of Irresistible Grace. As Calvinism can not be understood without a proper understanding of man's depravity, so Arminianism is dependent on understanding human free will.
- - American Heritage dictionary defines it as follows (emphasis added):
1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
neither is a full meaning as it pertains to theology
- - For a will to be truly free there must be an alternative to what the person in question actually chose. A person who is presented with only one option does not truly have free will. Calvin taught
that man is free to choose but only within the bounds of his nature. Arminius believed that this was not true free will. For free will to exist man must be able to of his own accord choose or reject God.
- - Arminius taught that man's fall into sin has not completely removed his ability to make a choice for or against God. Rather, man's will is in a neutral state and is not able to choose only evil. The
will is free to make a choice for either good or evil. In salvation, then, the Spirit draws people sufficiently and enlightens them enough that they can, of their own free will, choose salvation. However, He does not draw or enlighten them enough to force them into a decision. Developing faith is a human act and is man's gift to God.
Matthew 18:12,13 - He rejoices if he finds one of the lost sheep.
Matthew 23:37 - Jesus longs to gather the people to Him but they are not willing.
Luke 15:11-32 - The prodigal son came to the realization of his depravity by himself.
John 3:16 - "whoever believes in Him" would seem to indicate we choose to believe in Him.
John 5:40 - You are not willing to come to Me so you may have life.
John 7:17 - If anyone chooses (wills) to do God's will
Acts 2:38 - after their choice to be baptized they would receive the Holy Spirit.
Acts 16:31 - Paul and Silas told the jailer that if he were to repent and baptized he would be saved, seemingly indicating that he was given the choice of repentance.
Romans 10:9 - Free will is indicated in that we are told that if we believe with our hearts and confess with our lips we will be saved.
Arminians teach that God's election is based upon his foreknowledge that a person would choose to be saved. In the wide scope of eternity God saw those who would choose Christ and in response to
this act of human free will, God in turn chose them and called them the elect. We see that election is conditional upon free will because God has to see that a person will make a free will decision in
the future before He is able to impart salvation to that person. The decision to be saved, then, is ultimately a human decision and not an act of God.
Romans 8:29 - Those who He foreknew, He predestined.
Romans 11:2 - God foreknew His people.
1 Peter 1:1,2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.
The belief is when Christ died he took upon Himself every sin for every human being throughout time. This is not to say, though, that all humans are saved. Therefore, Christ's sacrifice does not
actually save individuals but only provides the potential for every individual to be saved. Christ's death will only provide salvation when it is completed by a free will decision made by a human. A
simple formula to express this would be, Christ's sacrifice + Human's free will choice = salvation. Salvation cannot be completed without both of the pieces being in place. Again we see that
atonement is conditional upon free will, as humans are able to freely choose or reject atonement.
John 1:12 - Those who received him were given the right to become children of God.
John 1:29 - John calls Jesus the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" not just the sin of the elect.
John 3:16 - God so loved the world, not just the elect.
John 12:32 - I will draw all peoples too myself.
Matthew 18:14 - It is not God's will that any of His sheep should perish.
Romans 11:32 - So God might have mercy on all.
1 Corinthians 15:22 - As all fell in Adam so all are saved in Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:14, 15 - One died for all.
1 Timothy 2:3-6 - God desires all to be saved and gave His Son as a ransom for all.
1 Timothy 4:10 - God is the Savior of all men, especially those who believe.
Hebrews 2:9 - Christ tasted death for everyone.
2 Peter 2:1 - Jesus "bought" even the false prophets.
2 Peter 3:9 - God does not will that any should perish, but that all should be saved.
1 John 2:2 - Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.
The fourth foundation of Arminian teaching is that God never forces salvation upon anyone. Though the Holy Spirit is instrumental in salvation, He does not force anyone into repentance. The
Spirit merely woos people who are then free to choose for or against the gift of salvation. The process of salvation is this: The Spirit woos people. Man in his free will chooses to believe in Christ.
Having believed, he then begins to exercise faith. As a result of these actions, the Holy Spirit regenerates him. Faith, therefore, precedes regeneration and is actually the cause of regeneration.
Faith is what allows the Holy Spirit to do His regenerative work in the new believer. As with the other points we see that free will is fundamental.
Matthew 23:37 - Christ longs to gather Jerusalem, but they are not willing.
Luke 7:30 - The Pharisees and lawyers rejected God's will for themselves.
John 1:12 - To those who received Him who already believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God.
John 3:18-21 - This would seem to indicate that works precede faith.
John 5:40 - We come to God and then are given life.
Acts 7:51 - You resist the Spirit as your fathers did.
2 Corinthians 6:1 - Do not receive the grace of God in vain.
1 Thessalonians 5:19 - Do not quench the Spirit.
Therefor can Fall from Grace.
Matthew 5:13 - Salt can lose its flavor (see also Mark 9:50).
John 15:1-7 - Vines can be cut off and burned if they don't bear fruit.
Romans 11:22 - If we don't continue in goodness we will be cut off.
2 Corinthians 11:4 - The people have fallen away and Paul tries to bring them back.
Galatians 5:4 - Paul says that those who have tried to be justified by the law have fallen from grace.
Hebrews 6:4-6 - The passage discusses how it is possible to fall away from God.
2 Peter 1:8-10 - It is possible to forget our salvation.
2 Peter 2:20-22 - It is better not to know the way of righteousness than to know it and turn from it.
Revelation 2:5 - God threatens to remove the church's lampstand if they do not repent.
What think ye? One right? other wrong? both some right, some wrong? :gsmile:
I think this is the easiest way to break it down.
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/partuniv.html
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2013, 09:38:59 AM
Quote from: Warhawk17 on September 12, 2013, 09:21:56 AM
I really enjoy L. Ray Smith's website and his videos, but I feel like he was hostile to anyone who disagreed with him on anything. Now he had some very nasty critics, for which he gave very justified blunt replies, but there are some emails on his site that came from honest truth seekers, and he didn't exactly come off as friendly in some of his replies.
Yeah, Ray usually used the blunt ax approach. When a seeker asked he gave polite answer but if that seeker used just one verse he didn't like :punish:
QuoteI also recently discovered a site called thepathoftruth.com, which seems to be a good UR site.
One of the site owners was a member here for a short while. Regardless of his message it was pure venom an superiority complex disguised as spreading the Gospel.
So you're saying I should stay away from that sight? They're right on about a lot of things, but there does seem to be an air of superiority over there. They were very hostile to Martin Zender as well, emailing him and calling him a cult leader to which Martin responded with good humor.
Quote from: Warhawk17 on September 13, 2013, 01:31:05 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2013, 09:38:59 AM
Quote from: Warhawk17 on September 12, 2013, 09:21:56 AM
I really enjoy L. Ray Smith's website and his videos, but I feel like he was hostile to anyone who disagreed with him on anything. Now he had some very nasty critics, for which he gave very justified blunt replies, but there are some emails on his site that came from honest truth seekers, and he didn't exactly come off as friendly in some of his replies.
Yeah, Ray usually used the blunt ax approach. When a seeker asked he gave polite answer but if that seeker used just one verse he didn't like :punish:
QuoteI also recently discovered a site called thepathoftruth.com, which seems to be a good UR site.
One of the site owners was a member here for a short while. Regardless of his message it was pure venom an superiority complex disguised as spreading the Gospel.
So you're saying I should stay away from that sight? They're right on about a lot of things, but there does seem to be an air of superiority over there. They were very hostile to Martin Zender as well, emailing him and calling him a cult leader to which Martin responded with good humor.
Well I read their condemnation of Gary and Martin, and that was enough for me. Here's a better site for you to check out.
http://concordant.org/