#1 -- Is Drinking alcohol, SINFUL?

[willieH]

willieH: Hello you's guys... :hithere: :hiya:

Just thought I'd start the first of 2 controversial topics...

On another board we discussed this topic -- Is DRINKING alcohol a SIN?

Can one say he/she is a believer and follower of CHRIST and indulge in its use?

I look forward to any commentary, and will begin by saying this (though I have much more to say about it)

I do NOT think it is a SIN at all... :mnah:

...willieH(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/somebody614/grouphug2.gif)

[Beloved Servant]

Things like this I've learned to call "Indulging Adam"
And I know when I've done something that displeased the Lord.

[Lupac]

I really don't know why anyone would anything wrong with drinking alcohol, it's not illegal, being a drunkard is a sin, but drinking at a party, or in your home? There's no reason for me to believe it's a sin.

[Molly]

The whole Bible talks about wine from one end to the other.  

We all know the beneficial effects of it.  It has harmful effects too.

Paul warns not to turn communion into a bacchanalia, doesn't he?  :laughing7:

Must have been those Corinthians who were doing that.

Alcohol abuse is a huge problem in this country.  It's a problem with teens, too.

There should be a way to handle alcohol appropriately, but a lot of people don't do it.

It's a shame people feel they have to check out of their own lives.

I think alcoholism is a sugar addiction or allergy myself...

Just ruminating...  

Sinful? Maybe if it is abused...

[Gab]

Considering that Jesus openly instructed his followers to drink wine at the Last Supper, I would kind of hope that drinking alcohol is not sinful. :laughing7:

[Lupac]

Silly Gab, everyone knows it was un-fermented grape juice.  :laughing7:

[sparrow]

One must practice self-control and everything in moderation.
Overindulgence is gross and does nothing for your spirit.
Just my personal opinion.
I may say more later on in the conversation.


And no, I personally don't think marijuana should be illegal.
Government propaganda.

[jfraysse]

The use of Drugs and Alcohol can not be sinful of itself.  Sin would depend on the motives of their use and the resulting consequences.  Eating too much can be sinful. :mshock: 

Some people are born with "addictive" personalities.  For these, immodest or uncontrolled use of drugs and alcohol would likely be devastating.  All of this is made far worse by the fact that we live in a mechanized society and drug and alcohol impaired operators can kill or injure potentially thousands at a time. :sigh: 

Laws are generally enacted for the "collective" good but I don't think that just because something is illegal that is necessarily a sin nor do I think that if something is legal, it can not be sinful.  And for the record, I think that "reefer" has been very unfairly treated with respect to alcohol.  But, I also believe we should be responsible for our actions and if the use of drugs and alcohol disinhibits our tendencies to perpetrate evil, then it would be sin.

Again, I think motives are very important.  There are many things in life that we can't control but willfully seeking to lose control of one's mental faculties (not just relax) seems patently unwise. :mshock: 

All things in moderation, save Love, is splendid advice methinks. :thumbsup:

In His Love, John (stopping one toke short of "the line") :HeartThrob:

[sparrow]

I am in agreement with my brother John.
well said.

[fullarmor2]

   Its all about the  :HeartThrob: with God.   When a person's  :HeartThrob: is right with God,   they can do or not do all sorts of things,  which would  draw finger pointing from  typical religious folks,  who mix grace with law. 

[NinjaWizards777]

I used to be completely against drinking, being that I grew up Wesleyan and they are pretty anti-alcohol. Now, I will drink on occasion to be social and unwind with friends. I have (unintentionally) gotten drunk a few times and while Im not overly proud of that, it was never to the point I did anything stupid. The last time I was "buzzed" me and two guy friends were standing out in their driveway at 3 am grilling some awesome chicken. I tend to think something like that is okay but jfraysse said, I think it depends alot on your motives.

If youre depending on alcohol/drugs to fill a void inside you that is meant for God, then it is sin. If youre just being social and not going overboard and doing stupid things, then I personally find it hard to call it sin. A little buzz and having some (clean) fun I think is okay, I personally feel I can handle that. but if you are just getting flat out wasted, and doing it frequently, Id say your in sketchy territory. But again, this is just me.

[Raggedy Anne]

If you drink, don't drive, and do so in moderation.  That's my personal view on the use of alcohol.

Anne

[WhiteWings]

Isn't sin not following God's rules? I never found anything said against alcohol in the Bible.
Alcohol gets sinful if you start to act wrong because of it. You know starting to 'touch' ladies that sort of stuff. But then the touching is the sin not the drink. It sorta removes barriers between thinking and acting sinful???
And as all brothers know the aim gets worse so we sometimes mis the mark in the toilet :laughing7:

[jabcat]

Things like this I've learned to call "Indulging Adam"
And I know when I've done something that displeased the Lord.

I really like your post BServ.  I reckon it's not "what's the most can I get away with", but rather "what pleases my Father?  What's sowing to the spirit and what's sowing to the flesh"?  Paul talks quite a bit about our conscience, and that some things are expedient, others not.  Also, am I doing something to cause my brother to stumble with my own freedom?  I find a lot of these things hard to absolutely know sometimes, but then again, the conscience - the Holy Spirit giving us that nudge.

So I believe some things seem a matter of conscience, while some are more clearly spelled out - drunkeness (excess), doing things that destroy the temple.  I also believe that includes food - how much and what types.

Anyway, liked your post, adding some of my thoughts.  :thumbsup:

[rosered]

Tts 1:15 Unto the pure all things [are] pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving [is] nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 

    thinking sinful nature  verses a pure nature  Bro Willie
what is spirit is Spirit and whats flesh is flesh
   that discerning  spirit of knowing which is which  and learning to seperate them  both  in righteous judging ...... :icon_flower:

 
  Good stuff guys  :thumbsup:

  :HeartThrob:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Gab... :hithere:

Let it be known that I do not propose drunkeness or over indugence in anything.  My purpose in generating these threads is to dispose of Christian teachings and directives, that bring unnecessary condemnation to men (in or out of CHRIST), with their BIBLICALLY UNSUPPORTED doctrinal views...

Maybe along the way, dispensing some of the RELIGIOUS thoughts that might find life in the corners of our opinions... which have NO FOUNDATION in the WORD, and only serve as NEGATIVE JUDGMENT toward our beloved brothers and sisters.

Considering that Jesus openly instructed his followers to drink wine at the Last Supper, I would kind of hope that drinking alcohol is not sinful. :laughing7:

Amen Gab... :nod:

He also turned WATER into WINE... at a "party"  :dontknow:

CHRIST's FIRST miracle was turning WATER into WINE... (not grape juice)... and this was done, well into the Wedding Celebration... (John 2:3-10) It amounted to 108-162 GALLONS total... quite a QUANTITY of WINE... (6 waterpots 18-27 Gallons each)

What of the scriptural RECOMMENDATION to GIVE one in despair, strong drink?

Pro 31:6-7 -- GIVE STRONG drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts [in despair]... let him drink and forget his POVERTY, and remember MISERY no more...

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

 

 good stuff guys  :thumbsup:

 they called Jesus a  wine bibber and glutton
and He hung out with the sinners and such ,
I did note Jesus always had a real "sharp Word "  for the self righteous   according to the Law of moses    stick em and it hurt that would get mad / angry at him  :mshock:  

 he judges  the heart not the things of  flesh  because there in nothing in the flesh good  but God ,   Jesus sees God always  ....... :thumbsup:

Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.  

 born from the widsom above  has  dominion over the wisdom   from below  :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

  wow!  Great posts!  Thanks for bringing it up...there is a

judgement in the eyes of men that 'appears' righteous.


   working as a nurse, I have seen many 'religious' families

deny pain releif[drugs] to their loved ones d/t their perverted

righteous judgement.  [I mean the people are dying and are in

agony..and the family is afraid they might become addicted, or

that it is 'unclaen' for other reasons.]  They will at times bring

up that when Jesus Christ was on His torture stake he refused

wine mixed with myrrh[painkiller]

                     Sheila

  p.s.  Willie, a little off topic,sorry!!

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Shiela... :hithere:

  wow!  Great posts!  Thanks for bringing it up...there is a

judgement in the eyes of men that 'appears' righteous.


   working as a nurse, I have seen many 'religious' families

deny pain releif[drugs] to their loved ones d/t their perverted

righteous judgement.  [I mean the people are dying and are in

agony..and the family is afraid they might become addicted, or

that it is 'unclaen' for other reasons.]  They will at times bring

up that when Jesus Christ was on His torture stake he refused

wine mixed with myrrh[painkiller]

                     Sheila

  p.s.  Willie, a little off topic,sorry!!

No worries sis...  :goodpost:

As far as family members denying pain relief to a terminal person, or even to one who has a chance... it's quite easy to "manage" another's pain (kind of like the criticisms that come from "armchair quarterbacks" as they watch a football game)

Wonder what they shall do, when and if THEY are faced with the same PAIN one day...  :sigh:

P.S. -- I salute your occupation...  :clapping: :flowerred: :cheerleader:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Raggedy Anne]

  wow!  Great posts!  Thanks for bringing it up...there is a

judgement in the eyes of men that 'appears' righteous.


   working as a nurse, I have seen many 'religious' families

deny pain releif[drugs] to their loved ones d/t their perverted

righteous judgement.  [I mean the people are dying and are in

agony..and the family is afraid they might become addicted, or

that it is 'unclean' for other reasons.]  They will at times bring

up that when Jesus Christ was on His torture stake he refused

wine mixed with myrrh[painkiller]

                     Sheila

  p.s.  Willie, a little off topic,sorry!!

Sad.  Such overly religious folk just set my teeth on edge!   :winkgrin:

I'm very pro pain-relief!

Anne

[WhiteWings]

I see double standards how people react to the wine thread and the cannabis thread.
Sorry I have to say this but the cannabis thread was like a bunch of ETs ramming fire through ones throat and carefully avoiding requests for scriptures.
The double standard is that because Jesus drank wine people seem to hold back on critising alcohol.
Where are the endless lists with medical articles showing  alcoholics have a wrecked body and mind? Not to mention stats on wrecked cars...
See this is a religious forum so we have to approach things from a religious angle. All scientific reports, our views. etc  are nothing more than "the vain thoughts of man"
So if the topic title is "Is Drinking alcohol, SINFUL?" then the question is how Father views the topic. Not the views of scientist Larry or president Obama. It so often isn't about the substance but the amount of it.
Is drinking water a sin? Drinking to much water kills you. So why is it not a sin? Simply because God didn't forbid it.
Does eating fruit from a certain tree in Eden makes you sick. No. Likely it was tastful and healthy fruit. Even according to "our" scientists if they could test the fruit. Then why was it wrong? Simply beacause God told it was wrong.
I find many laws in the Bible strange (to say the least). I also have thoughts about some laws in your country and my own country. But does that make the laws go away? Nope.

So my view on alcohol. The Bible doesn't forbid it so on itself it's perfectly ok to be drunk 24/7.
But.... while being drunk itself is not sinful it may clash with other laws of God.
For example we should set enough time apart to thank Father for His creative work etc. We can debate what enough is but if one is constantly drunk then that's certainly not enough worship time.
If a person is drunk only 3 hours a year I don't see that sinful as in to little worship time. But if someone during those 3 hours starts cursing God. Killing. Raping and other things against God's law then that is wrong. (that=cursing, klling, raping. Not drunk)
Eating is no sin. Jesus did it. It's even needed to stay alive. But when overdone it's called gluttony and that's a sin.
So all is fine as long as it doesn't clash with Father's 'sin list'.

[V.I.D.]

I will not say its a sin . It is a MISTAKE to drink alcohol because it is a poison.
Weak alcohol may not be a problem and can be tasty . Wine is very VERY good for some meals .It makes the taste of the food much better !

[CHB]

I tend to go with what Paul said here in  (1Cor. 6:12) "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: {or profitable} all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any".

It is not that drinking or smoking is a sin but is it profitable? Some cannot handle either and get addicted to them. was this what Paul meant when he said "I will not be brought under the power of any"?

My personal opinion is, to start drinking or smoking pot is like playing Russian roulette, you never know how you will be effected by either until you have tried it. If you are a mature Christian, you should be able to do all things in moderation and that is the key to the whole thing. Not all people can do this. Jesus could drink, smoke, or do whatever without a chance of becoming addicted to anything but us humans do not have that same power of resistance to things. The flesh is weak.

I am thankful I never had drinking or drugs to influence me when I was growing up. Doesn't mean I don't have other things to worry about and as I told my son, "we all have our addictions, they are just different kinds of addictions and some are worse on the body than others". Doesn't mean one is worse than the other. One person could be addicted to drink, another to drugs, another to food, another to sex, I could go on and on.

CHB

[Jerm]

I see no problem at all with drinking if done responsibly (In moderation, at legal age, not driving, etc.)  Personally, I like to have a beer with dinner or after work. However, as I said in my opening, this is done responsibly (I'm 22, I usually have no more than two, and definately have never driven drunk.)  As far as Scriptural evidence, I don't see any condemnation of drinking in and of itself, just drunkeness.  As people have already pointed out, Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine (About 180 gallons for a group of people who had already had enough to where they couldn't tell the difference between Boone's Farm and Merlot) as well as the fact that He drank enough for the religous leaders to call a Him drunkard.  All this being said, I can definately understand why someone would choose not to drink, having a history of alcoholism being an example.  So I guess it comes down to the person.  If you can indulge in a responsible manner, do so.  If not, then don't.

[jabcat]

Jerm and CHB  :thumbsup:

Found this at gotquestions.org and thought it was quite solid;  Some of the scriptural references I don't believe I was familiar with.  A good read, IMO.

Scripture has much to say regarding the drinking of alcohol (Leviticus 10:9; Numbers 6:3; Deuteronomy 29:6; Judges 13:4, 7, 14; Proverbs 20:1; 31:4; Isaiah 5:11, 22; 24:9; 28:7; 29:9; 56:12). However, Scripture does not necessarily forbid a Christian from drinking beer, wine, or any other drink containing alcohol. In fact, some Scriptures discuss alcohol in positive terms. Ecclesiastes 9:7 instructs, "Drink your wine with a merry heart." Psalm 104:14-15 states that God gives wine "that makes glad the heart of men." Amos 9:14 discusses drinking wine from your own vineyard as a sign of God's blessing. Isaiah 55:1 encourages, "Yes, come buy wine and milk..."

What God commands Christians regarding alcohol is to avoid drunkenness (Ephesians 5:18). The Bible condemns drunkenness and its effects (Proverbs 23:29-35). Christians are also commanded to not allow their bodies to be "mastered" by anything (1 Corinthians 6:12; 2 Peter 2:19). Drinking alcohol in excess is undeniably addictive. Scripture also forbids a Christian from doing anything that might offend other Christians or encourage them to sin against their conscience (1 Corinthians 8:9-13). In light of these principles, it would be extremely difficult for any Christian to say he is drinking alcohol in excess to the glory of God (1 Corinthians 10:31).

Jesus changed water into wine. It even seems that Jesus drank wine on occasion (John 2:1-11; Matthew 26:29). In New Testament times, the water was not very clean. Without modern sanitation, the water was often filled with bacteria, viruses, and all kinds of contaminants. The same is true in many third-world countries today. As a result, people often drank wine (or grape juice) because it was far less likely to be contaminated. In 1 Timothy 5:23, Paul was instructing Timothy to stop drinking the water (which was probably causing his stomach problems) and instead drink wine. In that day, wine was fermented (containing alcohol), but not necessarily to the degree it is today. It is incorrect to say that it was grape juice, but it is also incorrect to say that it was the same thing as the wine commonly used today. Again, Scripture does not forbid Christians from drinking beer, wine, or any other drink containing alcohol. Alcohol is not, in and of itself, tainted by sin. It is drunkenness and addiction to alcohol that a Christian must absolutely refrain from (Ephesians 5:18; 1 Corinthians 6:12).

Alcohol, consumed in small quantities, is neither harmful nor addictive. In fact, some doctors advocate drinking small amounts of red wine for its health benefits, especially for the heart. Consumption of small quantities of alcohol is a matter of Christian freedom. Drunkenness and addiction are sin. However, due to the biblical concerns regarding alcohol and its effects, due to the easy temptation to consume alcohol in excess, and due to the possibility of causing offense and/or stumbling of others, it is usually best for a Christian to abstain entirely from drinking alcohol.

http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-alcohol.html