Who is or could be the wild beast in the Book of Revelation 13?
...the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the feild
So you are saying that ".......the serpent..." is the wild beast? Im wondering hows that?
O yeah Good Morning :dsunny:
The serpent, the dragon, the devil, satan and the beast are all one and the same . . .just like God is . . .The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
The last verse of that chapter tells you who it is . . .the "symbol" of the beast is 666 . . .6 is the number of MAN. The beast is the nature of the carnal man in all of us.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 23, 2011, 02:50:59 AM
Who is or could be the wild beast in the Book of Revelation 13?
I don't understand it all but I believe the beast is/was A man who existed during 70AD, or will exist at the end. I think the beasts of Revelation is certain individual men who had power over certain countries, like Greece, Rome and so forth. Why would the beast make war with the saints AND OVERCOME THEM if it is our carnal nature? If the beast is our carnal nature why are there more than one of them? These things don't make any sense to me. In verse 18 It refers to THE beast and says 666 is the NUMBER OF A MAN, not men. Verse 8 says "all that dwell upon the earth shall worship HIM"...one individual.
I actually think this has been fulfilled already.
CHB
Why would the beast make war with the saints AND OVERCOME THEM if it is our carnal nature?
Doesn't Paul talk about the war that was going on within him? I know what I should do but don't, I know what I shouldn't do but do anyway . . .oh what a wretched man I am . ..who can save me from this body of death??? Only the power of the blood of the Lamb can save us from the carnality of ourselves. Without Christ, the beast rules us. "They overcame, by the blood of the Lamb, and the word of their testimony. . ." Overcame what? That's what all these stories beneath the stories have been all about . .. the beast within us rising up against the authority God placed in us. Satan=adversary. My carnality is ALWAYS at emnity (war) with God. It's always in adversity agianst the nature of God.
If the beast is our carnal nature why are there more than one of them?
For me, it's like when Jesus would say . ."the kingdom of God is like . . .a mustard seed . . ." and then he'd go someplace else and he'd say "the kingdom of God is like a man who dug up a preceious stone in his field . ." Same kingdom, different manifestation. It's the same with the beast, we see it in different forms, but it's all the same carnal force within us that's being dealt with.
In verse 18 It refers to THE beast and says 666 is the NUMBER OF A MAN
There are many different parts to the body, but they all make up "one" body. We are all a part of the body of Christ, we all have a carnal nature at war against our authoritive position. I've said this bunches of times and I love the message of it. God is not out to destroy MEN. he's out to destroy the MAN in men. 666 is not the number of "men". It's the number of MAN in men. It's the number of carnal flesh.
all that dwell upon the earth shall worship HIM"...one individual.
Ever notice when something of GREAT magnitude happened, it was ALWAYS at an elevated place? Moses received the commandments on a mountain . . .a LOT of things happened with Moses on a mountain. It was on a mountain when the disciples saw the transfiguration of Jesus. It was on a mountain range that the ark came to rest. The Garden of Eden was in an elevated place . . .one river flowed "out" of it and divided into four other rivers. It was in the "upper" room where the spirit was poured out upon all flesh . . .all of these things are pictures of God's nature being connected to "ascended" places. You can't be an earth-dweller if you expect to walk in the spirit realm of Truth.
In this passage you're talking about . . .the "men upon the earth" were not godly people walking in the spirit, they were merely people who were bound in the flesh, the carnal man and they "worshiped" it by giving themselves over to their lusts and desires . . .that can also apply to religious people as well. They were the ones that were deaf, blind and dead in the first place.
I agree with you in that literally speaking . .. it's already been fulfilled.
"Here is wisdom. Let him that has understanding count the NUMBER OF THE BEAST: for it is the NUMBER OF A MAN; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six [666]" (Rev. 13:18).
Is this indeed what the Greek manuscripts of Rev. 13:18 state? No, it is not.
The Greek word used when only man is meant (always excluding woman), is aner. But the Greek word translated "man" in Rev. 13:18 is not aner, but rather the word anthropos, which means "a human being, male or female." Strong's Concordant.
Furthermore, it is not the number of "a" anything. It is just the number of human or of mankind! Even the Revised Standard Version translators saw this and therefore, states, "It's number is six hundred sixty-six." The number of the wild beast is not the number of "a" man, but rather the number of "man" or "mankind."
Quote from: CHB on August 23, 2011, 10:38:22 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 23, 2011, 02:50:59 AM
Who is or could be the wild beast in the Book of Revelation 13?
I don't understand it all but I believe the beast is/was A man who existed during 70AD, or will exist at the end. I think the beasts of Revelation is certain individual men who had power over certain countries, like Greece, Rome and so forth. Why would the beast make war with the saints AND OVERCOME THEM if it is our carnal nature? If the beast is our carnal nature why are there more than one of them? These things don't make any sense to me. In verse 18 It refers to THE beast and says 666 is the NUMBER OF A MAN, not men. Verse 8 says "all that dwell upon the earth shall worship HIM"...one individual.
I actually think this has been fulfilled already.
CHB
2Jn 1:7 Because,
many deceivers, have gone out into the world, they
who do not[/b] confess Jesus Christ coming in flesh: This, is the deceiver and the antichrist.
Many deceivers...who do not confess.....THIS= the many, who do not confess....is the antichrist. The antichrist is not just a man, but is man.
Quote from: Nathan on August 24, 2011, 01:49:57 AM
I agree with you in that literally speaking . .. it's already been fulfilled.
I'm a
partial preterist, but my problem is, I'm not sure what all's been fulfilled and what's yet to be. :NewB1:
I've been following the Prophecy thread, and had some thoughts. I didn't want to derail that thread, as it's plugging along at a rapid clip from a futurist perspective. So I thought I'd post "out here to the side" in this thread, and if anyone wanted to pursue a little different angle of it they could do so here without interfering with Molly's thread - and if not, they can ignore this one. :beach:
So some thoughts; with so many differing views about future fulfillment, at some point I wonder "has some of this already happened"? Do
some of these apply to Israel and God's dealings with them in the
past? If so, how much? Recently the "figurative/spiritual" aspect has been brought up in the Prophecy thread, and I wondered about member Nathan for instance, who I
think sees it from both a spiritual
and an already fulfilled perspective. He's sent me a study on Revelation a long time ago that I tried to find and couldn't. In lieu of that, I found the following interesting. Although I think it may have some merit, I'm NOT saying what the author is claiming is "all there is to it", I PERSONALLY believe there's more to be fulfilled. Also, I expect he'll get bashed as a derelict Full Preterist :laugh:. but even if he were, I just think (at least parts of) the following may be something to consider. :2c:
Excerpts from The Beast of Revelation;
"..before we can turn to those passages where the Beast is mentioned, we must deal with some basic issues of interpreting the Revelation. It seems that most people today have not read the first verse of this book, which
would go along way in helping them interpret it. Take note of verse 1:
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place...."
Notice verse 3:
".... and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near"
We cannot ignore John's use of these words, because they supply us with important information to the interpretation of this book. Whereas, most believers are awaiting the events described in the book of the Revelation to find their fulfillment in the future, John clearly tells us that the prophecies of Revelation would begin to come to pass within a very short period of time of his writing. He dogmatically states that the events of Revelation were "shortly" to take place, and that the time is "near." Both of these words are significant.
In addition, John states, "the other has not yet come" (the seventh), "and when he comes, he must remain a little while." Following Nero came Galba, who reigned less than seven months.
Further Evidence
"And it was given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them...."
(Revelation 13:7)
Nero was not only the sixth emperor of Rome, he was the first to persecute Christians. That persecution began in the middle of November 64 A.D. and continued until June 8, 68 A.D. when Nero committed suicide, a period of 42 months. Take note how this fits with Revelation 13:5, which says:
"And there was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies; and authority to act for forty-two months was given him."
Is this just another coincidence, or is it more evidence from Scripture as to the identity of the Beast?
Furthermore, John prophesied the death that the Beast would die. The Beast not only slays by the sword, but ultimately is to die of a sword wound.
Revelation 13:10 tells us:
"If anyone leads into captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed."
The fact that Nero killed by the sword is well documented. Paul, for example, is said to have died under Nero by decapitation with a sword. Tertullian credits "Nero's cruel sword" as providing the martyr's blood as seed for the Church. He urges his readers to "Consult your histories; you will there find that Nero was the first who assailed with the imperial sword the Christian sect."
Likewise, history records that Nero took his own life with the sword. Roman historian Suetonius describes Nero's death: "Then with the help of his secretary, Epaphroditus, he stabbed himself in the throat."
It is interesting, from a historical perspective, that Nero was actually referred to as a "beast" by his contemporaries. For instance, the pagan writer Apollinius of Tyana, who lived at the time of Nero, states: "In my travels, which have been wider than ever man yet accomplished, I have seen many wild beasts of Arabia and India; but this beast, that is commonly called a Tyrant, I know not how many heads it has, nor if it be crooked of claw, and armed with horrible fangs.... And of wild beasts you cannot say that they were ever known to eat their own mother, but Nero gorged himself on this diet."
Nero ruthlessly murdered his parents, his brother, his pregnant wife (whom he kicked to death) and other family members. He was a homosexual, who found sexual gratification in watching torture. He enjoyed dressing up as a
wild beast and raping male and female prisoners. He illuminated his garden parties with the bodies of Christians, covered with pitch and set aflame.
The whole article on Revelation here - http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/walker-don_pp_01.html
QuoteThat persecution began in the middle of November 64 A.D. and continued until June 8, 68 A.D. when Nero committed suicide, a period of 42 months. Take note how this fits with Revelation 13:5
That's an interesting quote.
Revelation is often linked to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD
Like always there is disagreement but many scholars date the book of Revelation near 90AD. Revelation looks forward in time; meaning the events will take place after 90AD.
So if Revelation is about 63-70AD (7 years) it must have been written before that time.
I find all that info about Nero interesting. Yes, the argument is with many saying Rev. is written after 70 AD, some others saying before. Which I'm sure most if not all full preterists argue for before.
Interesting article: http://www.mediafire.com/?miqb9g34r5gngz7
Revelation is happening very close to the day of the LORD. If you know what that is, you will know it hasn't happened yet. But, maybe I'll cover it some on the prophecy thread.
This is why Jesus is saying he will come quickly. John is taken way ahead in time to the end times, and once he gets there, things are about to happen leading up to the day of the LORD.
Revelation has over 600 references to the book of Daniel.
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,...
--Rev 1
Quote from: jabcat on September 12, 2012, 09:51:28 AM
I find all that info about Nero interesting. Yes, the argument is with many saying Rev. is written after 70 AD, some others saying before. Which I'm sure most if not all full preterists argue for before.
Of course one can find 30 people saying post-70 AD and another 30 saying pre-70 AD. This is one guy's opinion and information he shares;
"The bible is it's own best reference for interpretation. Internal evidence -- words found in the book of Revelation, itself, prove it to be pre-AD70 in dating.
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; (Rev. 3:14).
Laodicea was destroyed by a mighty earthquake in 60 B.C. It was hit again in 65 AD.
One source says: " It was destroyed by an earthquake (A.D. 66, or earlier) and rebuilt by Marcus Aurelius. " Strong's Lexicon agrees. Aurelius was not even born until 121 AD, and died in 161 A.D. So how could there have been a church there if it was destroyed by an earthquake in the mid 60's and not rebuilt until decades later?
Also, we see the precise time of Jerusalem's destruction (3.5 years) noted in this book:
But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. (Rev 11:2).
All the pieces fit together. Read my studies concerning Jesus' statements about the Jerusalem of His day that correlate with Revelation's references to the harlot. Revelation was not written in 96 AD. It was written before 70 AD." - Mike Blume (I believe a full preterist).
Quote from: Molly on September 12, 2012, 10:03:07 AM
Revelation is happening very close to the day of the LORD. If you know what that is, you will know it hasn't happened yet. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,...
--Rev 1
I like information and scriptural possibilities, so no one think I'm coming down hard exclusively in one absolute place or another here. As with many things, although I seek wisdom and understanding, I'm open to the possibility that I just don't know for sure and/or could be shown to be wrong. I like to explore things
within the scriptures and knowledge of God, things that may be different than "what I've always thought" or believed. That said, it's interesting about the Lord's Day Molly. I think I know what you're saying, and it just occurs to me if there could be a difference between the Lord's Day and The Day of the Lord/That Day? Barnes Notes on the Bible says this about that particular phrase, The Lord's Day;
"On the Lord's day - The word rendered here as "Lord's" (κυριακῇ kuriakē), occurs only in this place and in 1 Corinthians 11:20, where it is applied to the Lord's supper. It properly means "pertaining to the Lord"; and, so far as this word is concerned, it might mean a day "pertaining to the Lord," in any sense, or for any reason; either because he claimed it as his own, and had set it apart for his own service, or because it was designed to commemorate some important event pertaining to him, or because it was observed in honor of him. It is clear:
(1) That this refers to some day which was distinguished from all other days of the week, and which would be sufficiently designated by the use of this term.
(2) that it was a day which was for some reason regarded as especially a day of the Lord, or especially devoted to him.
(3) it would further appear that this was a day particularly devoted to the Lord Jesus; for:
(a) that is the natural meaning of the word "Lord" as used in the New Testament (compare the notes on Acts 1:24); and
(b) if the Jewish Sabbath were intended to be designated, the word "Sabbath" would have been used.
:search:
Blessings.
OK, then, try this. Has this happened yet?
1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
--Dan 12
And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
--Rev 20
Quote from: jabcat on September 12, 2012, 10:17:07 AM
That said, it's interesting about the Lord's Day Molly. I think I know what you're saying, and it just occurs to me if there could be a difference between the Lord's Day and The Day of the Lord/That Day?
I don't think there is a diffrence. If I'm right it refers to Atonement day. It's a fall feast in late September.
QuoteBarnes Notes on the Bible says this about that particular phrase, The Lord's Day;
"On the Lord's day - The word rendered here as "Lord's" (κυριακῇ kuriakē), occurs only in this place and in 1 Corinthians 11:20, where it is applied to the Lord's supper.
Jesus died during a spring feast.
QuoteIt properly means "pertaining to the Lord"; and, so far as this word is concerned, it might mean a day "pertaining to the Lord," in any sense, or for any reason; either because he claimed it as his own, and had set it apart for his own service, or because it was designed to commemorate some important event pertaining to him, or because it was observed in honor of him. It is clear:
So according to Barnes "Day of the Lord" = "Last Supper" = a
new feast dedicated to Jesus?
I think all of that is wrong.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2012, 10:49:33 AM
So according to Barnes "Day of the Lord" = "Last Supper" = a new feast dedicated to Jesus?
I think all of that is wrong.
It may be, but I think he's just saying it's a special day set aside for the Lord, similar to the reference in I Cor. about taking communion/the Lord's Supper (not the Last Supper :). He's making a distinction between the Lord's Day and "that great and terrible day of the Lord". I don't know, but I think it's worth considering. :2c:
Quote from: Molly on September 12, 2012, 10:30:10 AM
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
--Rev 20
No, I don't think
the resurrection has happened yet.
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
a. to finish the transgression, and
b. to make an end of sins, and
c. to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
d. to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
e. to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
f. to anoint the most Holy.
a] I just have to take a quick look at the front page of any newspaper and I see a lot of transgression.
b] See a.
c] That could be fullfilled by crucifixion.
d] See a. The rightousness hasn't arrive yet.
e] That could point to Revelation.
f] Jesus was anointed. Sorry for the Trinity reference James but I think Father and not Son is the most Holy.
Also note THY people and city. It's only about Jerusalem and the Jews. I think nobody will be able to convince me that there is really peace in Jerusalem.
Jews are still rejecting Jesus.
There is no Jewish Temple but a mosque (sp?)
All-in-all it doesn't sound very completed to me. Parts, maybe. Everything, nope.
I set this all up by saying I don't believe everything's happened yet. That's not my point, I'm not saying it has. That's full preterism. I said I'm partial preterist, that I believe some things have happened and some haven't. But I do wonder if we get in a rush sometimes and assume it's all future rather than being able to discern which is which. Personally, I can't always do so. But I think it's interesting to look at possibilities.
I personally believe the Lord is yet to return, the dead in Christ arise, etc. But I also wonder if some things we take as future prophecies (especially OT and parts of Revelation) have either already happened, are at least what happened was a "type" of something that will happen further - for instance, if Nero was a "type" of the anti-Christ, if not "the". Bottom line, I'm not sure anybody really has all the answers to it.
Quote from: jabcat on September 12, 2012, 11:00:29 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2012, 10:49:33 AM
So according to Barnes "Day of the Lord" = "Last Supper" = a new feast dedicated to Jesus?
I think all of that is wrong.
It may be, but I think he's just saying it's a special day set aside for the Lord, similar to the reference in I Cor. about taking communion/the Lord's Supper (not the Last Supper :). He's making a distinction between the Lord's Day and "that great and terrible day of the Lord". I don't know, but I think it's worth considering. :2c:
To be honsest it didn't take me long to consider :P
The OT sets patterns. Those patterns become useless if suddenly new stuff is added.
I think Last Supper was just a regular Jewish custom that was celebrated by other Jews too.
And even if it's a completly new feast I think it's not relevant in connection ot Revelation. :Chinscratch:
Quote from: jabcat on September 12, 2012, 11:08:23 AM
I set this all up by saying I don't believe everything's happened yet. That's not my point, I'm not saying it has. That's full preterism. I said I'm partial preterist, that I believe some things have happened and some haven't. But I do wonder if we get in a rush sometimes and assume it's all future rather than being able to discern which is which. Personally, I can't always do so. But I think it's interesting to look at possibilities.
I personally believe the Lord is yet to return, the dead in Christ arise, etc. But I also wonder if some things we take as future prophecies (especially OT and parts of Revelation) have either already happened, are at least what happened was a "type" of something that will happen further - for instance, if Nero was a "type" of the anti-Christ, if not "the". Bottom line, I'm not sure anybody really has all the answers to it.
I don't even rule out some sort of double fulfiment.
It's all how things are calculated. I can calculated revelation to happen near 2016, 2026 and.... when Jesus lived.
Your suggestion makes things even more complex.
Instead of viewing Revelation, especially the 7 year part, as a compact timeline of events you seem to spread it out over at least 2000 years.
I'm not saying that's wrong, but it gets extremely hard to prove anything.
Dare I say "useless"? What's the use of prophesy is it's so extremely complex nobody has a clue what it even romotely is about.....?
Which point(s) of Reply #19 you think have taken place already?
Let me get to your last 2 posts. I'm still on The Lord's Day :)
I'm still wondering if there's a difference between the Lord's Day, when John saw his vision, and the Day of The Lord, when Christ returns, and starts to "wrap things up"...
You didn't like the first guy, let me run these out..these are all from biblios/biblecc, commentary on that verse. Maybe they're all wrong. :dontknow: (they probably all believe in hell, too :o ). So maybe Molly's right and John was transported forwarded "to THAT day". But here's what they say;
The Lord's day - The first day of the week, observed as the Christian Sabbath, because on it Jesus Christ rose from the dead; therefore it was called the Lord's day, and has taken place of the Jewish Sabbath throughout the Christian world. – Clarke's Commentary
He calls it the Lord's day, which Paul calls the first day of the week; 1Co 16:2. Geneva Study Bible
On the Lord's day - On this our Lord rose from the dead: on this the ancients believed he will come to judgment. Wesley's Notes
on the Lord's day-Though forcibly detained from Church communion with the brethren in the sanctuary on the Lord's day, the weekly commemoration of the resurrection, John was holding spiritual communion with them. This is the earliest mention of the term, "the Lord's day." But the consecration of the day to worship, almsgiving, and the Lord's Supper, is implied in Ac 20:7; 1Co 16:2; compare Joh 20:19-26. The name corresponds to "the Lord's Supper," 1Co 11:20 Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
The day and time when he had this vision was the Lord's day, the Christian sabbath, the first day of the week, observed in remembrance of the resurrection of Christ. – Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
Getting to your previous 2 posts, and including Molly's thoughts;
maybe it's all very simple, all very literal, all very easy to understand, and one can track it to know pretty much exactly what's going to happen. If so, that's great. I'm personally not able to do so (I haven't even watched the Left Behind Series! :spank: :winkgrin:)
now, to your a,b,c's..
a) agree, lot of transgression
b) agree, still sin
c) tentatively, would say yes, the cross fulfills c [although not everyone as yet reconciled TO God]
d) everyone and everything's not righteous yet, but Righteousness has come, and He's everlasting - so I'm not sure of the accurate meaning(s) of that verse - but I DON"T believe His knowledge and righteousness as yet "covers the earth as the waters cover the sea", or that He has as yet assumed position as All in All
e) ?
f) agree, Jesus was annointed, if that's what it's indeed referring to
Quote from: jabcat on September 12, 2012, 11:24:35 AM
Maybe they're all wrong.
Everybody who disagrees with me is wrong. But I could be wrong about that :P
QuoteThe Lord's day - The first day of the week, observed as the Christian Sabbath, because on it Jesus Christ rose from the dead; therefore it was called the Lord's day, and has taken place of the Jewish Sabbath throughout the Christian world. – Clarke's Commentary
So now it's not Last Supper but Sunday?
Well, also wrong. Imo Jesus was resurrected on a Jewish weekly Sabbath day (Friday 18:00-Saturday 18:00)
QuoteHe calls it the Lord's day, which Paul calls the first day of the week; 1Co 16:2. Geneva Study Bible
On the Lord's day - On this our Lord rose from the dead: on this the ancients believed he will come to judgment.
But, according to the same ancients, which day was it?
QuoteWesley's Notes
on the Lord's day-Though forcibly detained from Church communion with the brethren in the sanctuary on the Lord's day, the weekly commemoration of the resurrection, John was holding spiritual communion with them. This is the earliest mention of the term, "the Lord's day."
But Lord's day "celebration' predates Jesus.
Rev 1:1 A revelation (disclosure, revealing)of Jesus Christ,
Rev 19:10, those having the testimony(evidence) of Jesus; bow before God, for the testimony(evidence) of Jesus is the spirit of the prophecy.'
I do not believe the last book of the Bible is prophecy of what is to come, the book is revealing Jesus Christ in Spirit, in the "new creature," Gal 2:20 with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh--in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me;
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day
Heb 3:7 Wherefore, (as the Holy Spirit saith, `To-day, if His voice ye may hear--
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ yesterday and to-day the same, and to the ages;
The book is revealing Christ in you-me the true worshipers...Col 1:26 the secret that hath been hid from the ages and from the generations, but now was manifested to his saints,
Col 1:27 to whom God did will to make known what is the riches of the glory of this secret among the nations--which is Christ in you, the hope of the glory,
It has been comforting to me and He keeps me out of the world's turmoils and current events, He reassures me He has in hand on the pulse of all the goings on....that is Good News.
There maybe a small amount that will have a literal out come, and I am assured He will reveal that in his time to those who have ears to hear.
SEEING THROUGH THE EYES OF FAITH,NOT APPEARANCES
A.FINISH THE TRANSGRESSION='IT IS FINISHED'
B MAKE AN END OF SINS=BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD WHO TAKES AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD
C TO MAKE RECONCILIATION=BECOME RECONCILED TO GOD THROUGH CHRIST
D BRING IN EVER-LASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS= THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD THROUGH CHRIST,CHRIST OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS
ESEAL UP VISION AND PROPHECY= TRANSLATION VISION-TELL NO MAN
F ANOINT THE MOST HOLY- STAY IN JERUSALEM UNTIL THE PROMISE OF THE FATHER LUKE 24;49
WALKING BY6 FAITH WE KNOW.........DOES THE GREAT MASSES OF MANKIND THAT REMAINS IGNORANT TO THESE THINGS
NULLIFY THE WORK OF THE FATHER AND SON?..NO
LUKE 17;20 THE KINGDOM OF GOD DOES NOT COME WITH YOUR CAREFUL OBSERVATION,NOR WILL PEOPLE SAY
HERE IT IS,OR THERE IT IS...BECAUSE THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN YOU[AS A SEED OF FAITH IN WHAT GOD AND THE SON HAVE DONE]
I know it's just me, but I just never get the gist of some posts. Just who is the WILD BEAST? I mean can we find a common ground, I know the truth of inter weaving literal and the spirit causes, lets say shudder, but lets step forward with some real summations. I for one have grown VERY weary of religious dogma and rhetoric. :sigh: :Chinscratch:
Well, anyone who disagrees with my point of view and repeats it is guilty of religious dogma and rhetoric HAHAHAHAH :LH:
Really, the simple truth is that we don't kno. Day has dawned, when will it reach "HIGH NOON?" We just don't get it. The times and the seasons which are in the Father's domain are not for us to know(specificly) we watch for the signs of the times and we get caught up(the wrong way) because we don't realize the "Full Noon" only exists where the body is one in the spirit as one soul. The beast, could be like the harlot Babylon riding kingdoms through time, manifesting here and there over this kingdom or that- perhaps manifesting in a final earthly kingdom that will fall in one hour, perhaps not. But the DAY is in the TABERNACLE where there is no need of sun or moon(natural light) because the Lamb is its Lamp and God is the light in the midst of it, He WALKS AMONG THE LAMPSTANDS, He TRIES THE REIGNS AND The HEARTS, He says, let the one who has ear to hear, hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches.
"Sorry", 300 preterists said to the 300 literalists when the DAY finally awakened them, "We thought it was all over and missed it happening". "Sorry" said the 300 literalists to the 300 preterists, "We thought it had not begun yet, and missed it happening as well".
In every age their are fulfillments in measure of these "aionian" truths. When the age is finally, really, coming to a close, we will see it "happening" in the streets and the nations because Jesus is going to be Head over all things to His church BEFORE the end comes. Buckle up kids, this ride has barely begun :o)
"And those who lead the many to righteousness will shine like the stars" "And those who kno their God will Be STRONG AND DO EXPLOITS".
"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. "For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."
(Rev 12:11-12)
Amen!
GLLLOOORY!!!
:sigh:
(7) the Anglo-American dual world power.
There has been times of persecution in both these countries, but nevertheless both have been the fortress and home of Christianity and Jews. The prophets also prophecy great things coming from both these nations.
He that lead into captivity shall go into captivity: he that kill with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
(Rev 13:10)
Quote from: eaglesway on November 03, 2012, 06:54:18 AM
He that lead into captivity shall go into captivity: he that kill with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
(Rev 13:10)
does that rule out self defence?
First time i have read it differently that it sounds like only those who are the persecuter gets the sword, rather than those who defend themselves.
Self defence sure wasn't ruled out in old testament times. All able men were soldiers when being attacked.
True, God didn't allow David (a man after God's own heart) to build the temple because David was bloodthirsty, but I don't think it was because David killed others (his enemies). I think it was because God saw Davids heart and saw that David kinda enjoyed the killing. :2c:
I was actually speaking of the captivity of the spirit and using the sword of the word to kill, but if anyone asks, I believe in self-defense in general- altho our Lord did not defend Himself, so I can see God leading me to not defend myself.
Quote from: jaareshiah on November 04, 2012, 07:32:13 AM
At Revelation 13:3, it says concerning one of the "heads", that "I saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death, but its death-stroke got healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration." Which "head" or world power was this ? Since the time period for the book of Revelation is mostly during "the Lord's day" (Rev 1:10), which began with Jesus installation as king of God's kingdom in 1914, then the last "head" is the one that is in existence during this time and therefore controlling the "wild beast".
And since, the world powers of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome have long disappeared, then it has to be the "seventh" or final world power of human history - the Anglo-American dual world power - that came into existence when the United States "joined hands" with Britain during World War I. From that point forward, they have played a significant role in world events, such as forming and backing the League of Nations that came to exist in 1920 as well as the United Nations in 1945.
As a result of the heavy toll of World War I, of the loss of men and materials, as well as the pandemic of the Spanish Flu (in which epidemiologists estimate perhaps as many as 100 million people world wide may have died during 1918-19 pandemic) this made the Anglo-American world power seem as if it had been "slaughtered to death". This "death-stroke" or "sword-stroke"(Rev 13:14) also had an impact throughout the earth, deeply affecting Satan's political "wild beast", all the political governments on the earth.
However, "its death-stroke got healed", recovering over time from the economic strain as well as the loss of men, to attain to world renown status, leading the way politically so that "all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration." The "dollar" of the United States became the currency that has dominated the world markets.
Because of this, "they (all the earth) worshiped the dragon because it gave the authority to the wild beast, and they worshiped the wild beast with the words: "Who is like the wild beast, and who can do battle with it?" (Rev 13:4) Hence, Satan the Devil receives the worship he wants by means of his creation of the "wild beast", though the vast majority of mankind are unaware that they are, in effect, worshipping Satan by pledging allegiance to their respective nation's flags. They are unaware that it is Satan that is pulling "the puppet strings" of the nations through the various demons under his control.(see Dan 10:13, 20)
Satan delegates authority to the wild beast, and he does this on a nationalistic basis. Thus, instead of being united in bonds of godly love, mankind has become divided by pride of tribe, race, and nation. The great majority of people worship, in effect, that part of the wild beast (the entire political arrangement of the world) having authority in the land where they happen to live. Thus the whole beast gains admiration and worship, putting love of country ahead of love of God, giving blind devotion to their country's nationalistic interests. These extoll it and as if saying: "Who is like the wild beast, and who can do battle with it?"
There is certainly NO HISTORIC record that would indicate that the United States suffered anything like a "death stroke" in the early 20th century- this is a real reach, almost like an alternate reality fiction by Eric Lustbader. The United States and Britain delivered the "death stroke" to Germany- one could even hypothesize that Hitler's Germany was the the resurrected beast and it would make more sense that the United States and Britain.
A "wild beast" is in other words, an "unrestrained creature." Though a man-made creature, the internet/computer, possibly including certain software, is unrestrained.
Consider also how it is, or can be, "full of eyes."
(I'm not setting anything in stone. It's only meant to be suggestive.)
Quote from: reFORMer on November 04, 2012, 09:21:26 AM
A "wild beast" is in other words, an "unrestrained creature." Though a man-made creature, the internet/computer, possibly including certain software, is unrestrained.
Consider also how it is, or can be, "full of eyes."
(I'm not setting anything in stone. It's only meant to be suggestive.)
Very interesting suggestion on computer/internet...
another suggestion : computer/internet=end times Tower of Babel
and reminds me of:
Hab 2:4
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Hab 3:18-19 AMP
18 Yet I will rejoice in the Lord; I will exult in the victorious God of my salvation.
19 The Lord God is my Strength, my personal bravery, and my invincible army; He makes my feet like hinds' feet and will make me to walk [not to stand still in terror, but to walk] and make [spiritual] progress upon my high places [of trouble, suffering or responsibility]!
============
Rev 13:5-6
5 ...there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies...
6 and he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
like everything man has created there is good and evil... oh to be able to discern the good and avoid the evil of all that is made available on the internet!!!!
IMO, Paul speaks as if nothing is evil in itself, but rather, as man's imagination is evil, innocent things, even helpful good things, become endowed with the power to accomplish evil in the hands of self-centered people.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 23, 2011, 02:50:59 AM
Who is or could be the wild beast in the Book of Revelation 13?
"Beasts" in Bible prophecy, from what I gather are human governings, or governments. I've heard this "wild beasts" as interpreted as literal wild beasts in late days consuming people.. but I believe it's a way of saying wild governments. This is in the description of the 4th horse and rider of the apocalypse, which "the grave" follows after him, and what he has (this pale horse and rider) is plagues and pestilence (including surely? chemical, and when all is said and done, this fourth galloping/progressing element of the latter age (the years of our Lord, A.D.) kills 1/4 of the earth.
- Included with "the grave" which follows after this one, is the mass grave.
"Wild government(s)" - terrorists? Jihadists? :2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2012, 11:02:25 AM
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
a. to finish the transgression, and
b. to make an end of sins, and
c. to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
d. to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
e. to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
f. to anoint the most Holy.
a] I just have to take a quick look at the front page of any newspaper and I see a lot of transgression.
b] See a.
c] That could be fullfilled by crucifixion.
d] See a. The rightousness hasn't arrive yet.
e] That could point to Revelation.
f] Jesus was anointed. Sorry for the Trinity reference James but I think Father and not Son is the most Holy.
Also note THY people and city. It's only about Jerusalem and the Jews. I think nobody will be able to convince me that there is really peace in Jerusalem.
Jews are still rejecting Jesus.
There is no Jewish Temple but a mosque (sp?)
All-in-all it doesn't sound very completed to me. Parts, maybe. Everything, nope.
It's talking about Jesus, what He did.
You all don't even have a idea about the wild beast, sad. :2c:
The Wild Beast is the animal impulses of the flesh. Food, covering, reproduction...
The False Prophet is the religious mind of the flesh.
The Devil is the originating identity of the flesh. This is the father of the carnal nature.
These three entities are the only things clearly said by the Bible to be in the Lake of Fire.
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 28, 2013, 08:08:26 AM
You all don't even have a idea about the wild beast, sad. :2c:
Some of us do, and this thread seems to be beating around the bush.
First off, the wild beast harks back to the Book of Daniel.
The leopard, bear, and lion resemblances take us back to Daniel 7:3-6.
The seven heads and ten crowns take us to Daniel 7:7-8.
But what is it?
My sojourn with the SDA church was instructive, for there were many seminars on the Revelation, and books about it, which I studied a lot. My main reference was/is
Unfolding the Revelation by Roy Allan Anderson. This book goes into quite a bit of depth, and I agree with most of it. However, I do not want to step on any toes here, and the book, overall, and in its coverage of Rev. 13, is NOT kind to Papal Rome.
Am I in violation of T&C if I continue in this vein? Mods, please advise...
Quote from: reFORMer on January 28, 2013, 08:28:21 AM
The Wild Beast is the animal impulses of the flesh. Food, covering, reproduction...
The False Prophet is the religious mind of the flesh.
The Devil is the originating identity of the flesh. This is the father of the carnal nature.
These three entities are the only things clearly said by the Bible to be in the Lake of Fire.
Wow! Very succinct and well presented! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 28, 2013, 08:38:24 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 28, 2013, 08:08:26 AM
You all don't even have a idea about the wild beast, sad. :2c:
Some of us do, and this thread seems to be beating around the bush.
First off, the wild beast harks back to the Book of Daniel.
The leopard, bear, and lion resemblances take us back to Daniel 1:3-6.
The seven heads and ten crowns take us to Daniel 1:7-8.
But what is it?
My sojourn with the SDA church was instructive, for there were many seminars on the Revelation, and books about it, which I studied a lot. My main reference was/is Unfolding the Revelation by Roy Allan Anderson. This book goes into quite a bit of depth, and I agree with most of it. However, I do not want to step on any toes here, and the book, overall, and in its coverage of Rev. 13, is NOT kind to Papal Rome.
Am I in violation of T&C if I continue in this vein? Mods, please advise...
I think you're ok
The wild beast in Rev. 13 is described in a sort of shorthand manner. To see it more fully, we need to go to the Book of Daniel. Here, we see more detail. Looking at chapter seven, we see four beasts in a dream of Daniel's, as follows. At the same time, keep chapter two in mind, for Daniel's dream in chapter seven ties in with Nebuchadnezzar's dream in chapter two.
First, there is a lion with eagle's wings, and being the first beast in the series, it would represent Babylon, and would correspond to the head of gold in Nebuchadnezzar's dream.
The second beast is a bear, which raised itself on one side, representing the successor kingdom of the Persians and the Medes, the Persians being dominant, thus the lopsided stance. This bear carried three ribs in its mouth, perhaps to stand for three previous empires it had conquered, maybe Babylon, Egypt and Lydia. In terms of Nebuchadnezzar's dream, this beast/empire is the chest and arms of silver.
After the bear, we have beast number three, a four-headed leopard with wings. This swift leopard would be the Greek empire of Alexander and his successors, divided after the death of Alexander, like the brass of the belly of the figure of Nebuchadnezzar's dream, divided into the two thighs, but in fact, his empire was divided into four parts, correstponding to the four heads.
Now we reach the strong meat, our real subject matter: beast number four. The first three are important to know and understand, but I've mentioned them mostly for context, which is always important. After the brass in the dream of Nebuchadnezzar, came the two legs of iron, and iron is the key to this beast and empire. As Daniel said about the dream of Nebuchadnezzar, "...as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise." Moving on to Daniel's dream, we can see added detail. Daniel said in chapter seven, "Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; and of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of the horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom." Daniel was answered thus, also in chapter seven, "The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise; and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and think to change times and laws; and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."
OK, let's break all this down. First, iron came along long after bronze had been the dominant metal, not all at once, but for me, iron suggests late antiquity, when Rome came to power, a little at first, and then ever larger. Teeth of iron, and nails (or claws) of brass, so there is also a connection with the Greeks and their culture and civilization. The Romans were famous for adopting anything Greek, especially after
they had overrun the decadent Greek world. Even the gods and mythology of the Greeks was recast into a Roman mold. So the brass claws fit with the iron teeth. Next, let's look at the ten up and three down horns. Here's a rough list of the nations making up the Roman Empire about 14 AD, or the death of Augustus:
Iberia
Gaul
Italy
Illyricum
the Greek world
Syria
Palestine
Egypt
Lybia
the former lands of Carthage (in North Africa)
These make up the ten horns – so what makes up the three fallen horns? First, we must identify the single horn coming up among the ten. To do so, I'll list its characteristics:
It has eyes, a mouth speaking great things, a look more stout than that of the other horns, overthrows three kingdoms, wears out and makes war with the saints, prevails against the saints for 1260 years, it speaks against the Most High, it will think to change times and laws, and it will last until the Second Coming.
Pagan Rome overthrew lots of kingdoms, and forcefully destroyed Carthage, Dacia, and Judea, but did not entirely exterminate their people. After Pagan Rome became Papal Rome, the Rugian people were wiped out, and nearly forgotten; the Occitan people were crusaded against, and a person has to dig to find out the attendant horrors. The third kingdom is the other leg of iron, the Eastern Empire, which split off from the authority of Rome, and paid dearly for it, as repeated Crusades weakened it , although official history will repeat the lie that the reason for the Crusades was to retake the Holy Land – in my (maybe-not-so-humble) opinion, that was not the real reason. The dominance of the little horn lasted until 1798, when the Napoleonic Wars stripped it of its temporal powers. Counting back 1260 years – or time (360 years), times (720 years), and half a time (180 years), takes us to 538 AD, and the decree of Justinian, which gave the Church the recognition of the secular State, and with it, the beginning of temporal power. Persecutions and wars against genuine Christians began at about that time. Further, Papal Rome spoke against the Most High with non-Biblical traditions, doctrines (like ET) Canon Law. It changed times (Sabbath > Sunday) and laws (dropped the second Commandment against graven inages, and split another to make ten).
As we go forward to Rev. 13, I think we can bring most of what we learned in Daniel forward, except for one detail: "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast." [Rev. 13:3] In 1798, the Pope was taken prisoner by General Berthier, and he died in exile. At the time, many thought the institution was finished. Later, when Italy was united by Garibaldi in the 19th century, Papal Rome was stripped of its land and thus, of its temporal power. However, in 1929 its temporal power was restored
by Mussolini, making the Pope a king again. Anderson, in his book, quotes a Church official as saying, "...it is healing the wound of fifty-nine years." There is more that I can say, but at least (if I am correct) we know who/what the Wild Beast is, and that is our subject. Be aware that this is an SDA interpretation, and other views are welcome, especially since I am an ex-Adventist.
Quote from: reFORMer on January 28, 2013, 08:28:21 AM
The Wild Beast is the animal impulses of the flesh. Food, covering, reproduction...
The False Prophet is the religious mind of the flesh.
The Devil is the originating identity of the flesh. This is the father of the carnal nature.
These three entities are the only things clearly said by the Bible to be in the Lake of Fire.
:iagree:
I respectfully disagree. Jesus spoke of those who would be cast in the fire prepared for the devil and his angels in Matthew, I believe, because "I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, etc.". Also, I belive He spoke of this also when He said, for it is better to enter heaven maimed than to enter Gehenna whole- or maybe you do not see a connection between these manifestations of the fire?
I see only one fire- the fire that consumes darkness and is shining from the eyes of Jesus- the fulness of God within Him. But I think it has different affects on beings in different conditions.
When the scriptures talk of the devil being punished in "the presence of God and His holy angels", I see this as the "lake of fire".
Everyman will be salted with fire and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt.
:iagree: too
I think the different beasts are the carnal nature of men, and all men will enter the LOF, it was prepared for them(the carnal beasts). Seeing how the LOF is Gods presence, IMO, or His radiance, all will enter, only some will be hurt, all will be saved though as through fire, and all will lose the beast image of the corruptible, and reflect the glory of the lord as in a mirror (basanos), and bear the image of the incorruptible.
in the valley of ben-hinnom they burned up carcasses of dead beasts? right?..... we can't be burning up
sons in the valley of ben-hinnon/gehenna..that isBaal's high place of worship Jeremiah 32;;35 they built
High places for Baal....in the valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech
though I never commanded nor did it enter my mind,that they should do such a detestable thing.
whoaa...ain't going there. :eek:..there has to be some other way.......than throwing Israels son and daughters
in the fire.........
we are told in the parable of the wheat and tares..that angels will bind the tares for burning..thus serpent seed
or demons..that the demons are seperated first from God's wheat[man to bear image of incorrupt one]
Is Jesus capable of directing His angels to seperate demons from mankind? Harvest is the end/consumation
you either end up in the barn or the LOF...two very different ends.
you all are entitled to your opionion as to who goes into the lof..but I'm not giving any worship to Baal
or Molech..on this front.. THERE IS ANOTHER WAY and the salvation of all mankind is in the barn...
what will be lost in the LOF..evil rebellious spirits,doctrines of demons/lies/unclean spiritsoppressive spirits
it is the place where all that is negative/evil contrast..all that causes sin..and stumblings is consumed in
HIS JEALOUS WRATH.......... It is what He does for us..that we can not do for ourselves In this wrath and jealousy
He demolishes all death.all things that cause sin. ..
discern ever so carefully..and make the distinction between a man and any demons that may be using him..
Note that Jesus had full authority to cast them out and restore men. that He addressed them,inquired of their
names and spoke to them openly whether they be on the bodies of the Pharisee's sadducees..and say
to them'who will save YOU from the fires?" evidently proclaimingHis sacrifice would not. He come in flesh
because the little children were partakers of flesh.And He said..the flesh is weak,but the spirit willing
FOR THIS REASON ANTI-CHRIST SPIRITS WILL NOT CONFESS THAT JESUS CHRIST COME IN THE FLESH.
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 30, 2013, 02:55:18 AM
:iagree: too
I think the different beasts are the carnal nature of men, and all men will enter the LOF, it was prepared for them(the carnal beasts). Seeing how the LOF is Gods presence, IMO, or His radiance, all will enter, only some will be hurt, all will be saved though as through fire, and all will lose the beast image of the corruptible, and reflect the glory of the lord as in a mirror (basanos), and bear the image of the incorruptible.
We're not all that far apart but I think the lake of fire is a post second resurrection experience of the presence of God for those whose names were blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.
My saying there is only one fire means that i think it is all(for us in this life and for the wicked in the aionian kolassis/pur) eminating from God. What we are experiecing in this life, (imo) is not the fire prepared for the devil and his angels- I see that as coming at the end of the next age(but I see it as through a glass darkly :o)
Our beast is slain when we die and are buried and are raised into newness of life in Christ- if any man be in Christ Jesus, "Behold(see, understand)- old things are passed away, all things become new."
The same fire/light we rejoice in will cause weeping and gnashing of teeth among the adversaries until every hidden thing is brought to light and Leviathan, the fleeing twisting serpent(ego/self) is brought up and slain by the sword of His mouth and the knee bows and the tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord with rejoicing heart and mind set free and spirit delivered.
I don't see it all as allegory lived in the now, I see it as an administration suitable to the completion of time, with ages to come.
Sheila wow amen! And your last line in caps really struck deep!
Quote from: eaglesway on January 30, 2013, 07:42:43 AM
We're not all that far apart but I think the lake of fire is a post second resurrection experience of the presence of God for those whose names were blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.
Scripture never tells us if anyone's name was actually blotted out, only, "If anyone's name was not written..." an "if" that was never answered. Then too, only the kind of people, like murderers and liars, who would have a part (not all their lot) in the lake, not that any or how many were found. That wasn't written either. We'd have to add to the scroll to say. These facts continue to amaze me.