You've Gotta Be Kidding...Right? Full Version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaqaGGRg9Yw
No I'm kidding. It's the name of the video. I'm familiar with the history of the period and this video is compelling. I can't subscribe to fully because it would require you to give the book of Revelation an earlier than the accepted date. I haven't read all of the recommended books the video talks of so who knows. Some Jesus prophecies form the Gospels on the other hand do indeed seem to be fulfilled. This has come to be my belief before watching this video.
Yes, I'm interested.
I was arguing with some atheists about Jesus words "heaven and earth shall be pass away" and found an article here on Tentmaker that gave some good information on the wordage.
Quote
We have to go to the Old Testament to see what "heaven and earth" means in prophetic language.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/heavenandearth.htm
Link in the quote.
I felt that I gave a logical answer to the atheist's question.
There is more then one way to interpret the Bible.
I have been studying J Preston Eby's current series on Revelation.
I got a bout 20 minutes through the vidio you provided..........a lot of parallels between preterism and J Preston Eby's writings.
Thanks for the link.
ed
At aproximately 12:50 seconds in, the teacher makes a broad assumption that could be true, but is by no means absolute. He ascribes Psalm 18 to a direct reference to David's deliverance form earthly enemies.
Yet, the whole point of the video is against literalism. Also, much weight is placed there on the past tense English of the Psalm. Yet there was no such tense in the original. You can't have it both ways. I say the guy is being way to literal minded in his defense against literalism and advocacy for preterism. :o)
I think David was speaking in prophetic language both of the defeat(judgment) of his enemies, and the picture of God's ultimate judgment of all his enemies through death, meaning the verses are at the same time historic, prophetic, metaphorical.
What I dislike about both preterists and futurists is that they are each trying to make one side of the stone into the whole truth
These prophecies are always in the Now, always in the Was, Is, and Is To Come of the I Am. They are neither completely fulfilled(in 70 ad or any other date yet passed) nor are they awaiting some future date to be initiated. They are both prophetic and historic. They are both literal and metaphoric.
They are like the dawn rising to full noon- When God is ALL IN ALL
They are like wav theory, pulses following one another through the ether from the original source(Alpha), occasionally intersecting and manifesting in time in great effect on nations and the earth, but always in effect for every adversary.
They are like string theory, strings running through the fabric of creation from beginning to end, always alive until the last adversary, death, is subjected to Christ and God becomes all in all.(Omega)
They are like dark matter. Unseen within the material our senses can detect, recognizable, however, because of their overwhelming effect upon all matter and energy and advent.
No one can claim them as their own. No one can ultimately define their scope and limit them to one time or another. As long as their are adversaries they will speak. When the last adversary is destroyed, they will be fulfilled.
To me it's that simple ;o)
Quote from: eaglesway on July 05, 2014, 05:29:40 PM
To me it's that simple ;o)
Sectarian!!!!!!
Just joking.
I agree that the futurist and preterits are too much into the literal.
I am interested in his comment on the four major ways of interpretations for the book.
Gonna google that a bit.
:peace:
Yea, there is some interesting stuff in it, I just wish they didnt hav to tie so many "doctrinal finalities" to their interpretations. Skews the adventure :o)
In looking at EaglesWay Post:
I think David was speaking in prophetic language both of the defeat(judgment) of his enemies, and the picture of God's ultimate judgment of all his enemies through death, meaning the verses are at the same time historic, prophetic, metaphorical.
What I dislike about both preterists and futurists is that they are each trying to make one side of the stone into the whole truth
These prophecies are always in the Now, always in the Was, Is, and Is To Come of the I Am. They are neither completely fulfilled(in 70 ad or any other date yet passed) nor are they awaiting some future date to be initiated. They are both prophetic and historic. They are both literal and metaphoric.
Viewing scripture from a historical view (past or present), prophetic (future) or metaphorical which in the last paragraph is tied into literal.
I'm somewhat confused by the literal and metaphoric being tied together. Wouldn't the historical view be the literal view? A metaphor is "a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable. ref: Bing Dictionary". Or a metaphor is a way to represent something else, maybe like we overuse the term "virtual" today.
So David's message was historic in the literal sense, either past, present or future (prophetic) and that is was metaphoric in symbolically representing the victory. Of our sinful nature? I didn't watch the video so I'm not sure of its context.
Anyway, just trying to understand the ways to look at scripture - 3D like!
3D exactly! The word of God is living and active. Oracles. We hav to be careful when we limit things. A prophet may speak of a current event in his daybut, God may b speaking thru at the same time of eternal unchanging principles or to something that plays outfrequently in history, like the surrounding of Jerusalem by foreign armies, for example- or the desire of aman to rule the world, which could speak literally to someone in a specific time, but also figuratively to all such men, or to all men about the way the adversary manifests, or to some paritcular person about how they treat their family, or too the pen-ultimate occurrence of such a thing in the end-game of the age. So many of the Psalms arelike this because they came out of Davids life. When believers oppose one another at the crossroads of these living words as if they hav the absolute insight or interpretation, it is imo a failure to seek the whole counsel of God, and a form of arrogance. When i first bumped into preterism i was blessed by the insights into figurative language, and hav learned a lotfrom them, but i am always alarmed when i hear folks(of any perspective)being so absolute about things that hav multiple(wheels within wheels) layers and perspectives.
The wisdom of God is many faceted diamond cut by the master jewler himself and the angles of refraction are limitless. People who want to "posess" the truth r too often ready to discount witnesses that may show another facet that doesnt fit their systematic theology. :2c:
The narrator of the video states; "through my logic and reasoning". Hmm, what about the guidance of the Holy Spirit?
Throughout the video, he talks about the spiritual fulfillment and at the same time, shows literal fulfillments. He talks about Josephus mentioning Angels appearing and great light in the nighttime and earthquakes, but yet he also contended that these were not to be physical manifestations, but spiritual manifestations.
I can definitely see a spiritual reign, where we are currently walking in his light. But I don't see the restoration of Israel and Jesus reigning over all the nations of the earth, or every tongue confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord.
And then there is this:
Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Rev_1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Did the apostles not see Jesus physically go up into the clouds. So would he not physically come back the same way, as spoken of in Revelation?
The narrator of the video mentions that the people of that time understood the "language" of the scriptures. Of course they would have understood reference to the Cloud; for that was where God was, in heaven. So Jesus was ascending into heaven, from where he will return.
Two part prophecy. I would agree with the narrator of the video on this for these verses in Luke and Mark, that there is not a double fulfillment. However, these verses are clearly divided. As we see the destruction of Jerusalem and it being trodden down by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles if fulfilled.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
and in Mark...
Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Mar 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
Mar 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
History is clearly showing us that Jerusalem has been trodden down by the Gentiles, and currently is still being trodden down, although it is currently in the hands of the Zionists, not all of Israel, despite the name.
A generation of worldwide capitalism:
Mat_11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
Mat_12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mat_12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
Nineveh and the Queen of the south were both of Great wealth.
And the last state of man:
Mat_12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
The wicked generation:
Luk_9:41 And Jesus answering said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you? Bring thy son hither.
Imo, this was the generation in Jesus' day, the generation that saw the destruction of Jerusalem.
In the video, he had mentioned that the sun in one account was attributed to Egypt. That would be relevant as Egyptians were sun worshipers, big time! Is Luke 21:25 telling us exactly what the Sun, moon and stars are; namely the distress of nations, and the sea and waves roaring (In revelation we are told that the sea is people, tongues and nations). So I guess I would concede that the Sun, moon and stars won't literally be darkened, but this metaphorically signifies the nations of the earth; which nations are signified by the sun, the star and the nations I'm not sure, but it might tie into the Beast, the false prophet and those who have the mark in Revelation; as I have elsewhere posted, the Beast (worldly kingdoms), false prophet (false religions and beliefs [evolution] and those with the mark in there foreheads and hands (thoughts and actions). Or it could be more literal then that, time will tell.
I've never really looked at the Preterist view before, and maybe I'm missing its message. But to me, there is a lot of literal, physical stuff happening and I think still to happen.
Mat_5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. :dsunny:
Quote from: saintwalee on July 10, 2014, 04:58:57 AM
The narrator of the video states; "through my logic and reasoning". Hmm, what about the guidance of the Holy Spirit?
Throughout the video, he talks about the spiritual fulfillment and at the same time, shows literal fulfillments.
I didn't watch the video due to my extremely bad hearing but what I'm going to say applies to many similar teachings. Often people point toward earthquakes, wars, drought etc. They correctly point out those things happened on a date matching a certain prophetic timeline. What they all seem to ignore is that all those things took place many times in history. Those events don't fall on a timeline.
A few graphs with statistical correlations:
http://www.themarysue.com/spurious-correlations-engine/
QuoteHe talks about Josephus mentioning Angels appearing and great light in the nighttime and earthquakes, but yet he also contended that these were not to be physical manifestations, but spiritual manifestations.
QuoteI can definitely see a spiritual reign, where we are currently walking in his light. But I don't see the restoration of Israel and Jesus reigning over all the nations of the earth, or every tongue confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Spiritual things are so easily abused. If something should happen according to the time line presented, but nothing seems to happen then just make up a unverifiable spiritual event.
And then there is this:
Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Rev_1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Did the apostles not see Jesus physically go up into the clouds. So would he not physically come back the same way, as spoken of in Revelation?
It can be argued they didn't see it happen spiritually but imo that contradicts the whole ministry of the Apostles. If Jesus went out of sight spiritually they lost connection with Him. And that's the total opposite of what happened. During His ministry the Apostles didn't understand many things. But after He went away they got so much knowledge they didn't just understand, they were great teachers of Truth. To me that doesn't sound like Jesus going spiritually out of sight. Yeah, I'm aware of the difference between HS and Christ, but still...
QuoteHistory is clearly showing us that Jerusalem has been trodden down by the Gentiles, and currently is still being trodden down, although it is currently in the hands of the Zionists, not all of Israel, despite the name.
It's hard to determine what exactly was Israel. Or any other ancient country like say Babylon. But still the Jews had no control over there land in Jesus time. Practically no Jews lived in Israel until they returned shortly after WW2. And yeah Israel isn't a Jewish nations because I think the majority who live there are considered Gentiles by Biblical standard. The many atheist Israeli, muslims and of course quite a few Christians.
QuoteIn the video, he had mentioned that the sun in one account was attributed to Egypt. That would be relevant as Egyptians were sun worshipers, big time! Is Luke 21:25 telling us exactly what the Sun, moon and stars are; namely the distress of nations, and the sea and waves roaring (In revelation we are told that the sea is people, tongues and nations). So I guess I would concede that the Sun, moon and stars won't literally be darkened,
Read what I sent you, but while I see a possibility for literal fulfillment. Let's say volcanic ashes darkening the sky.
But you are totally right what the sea is besides the regular sea. But the symbolism just starts there.
Sun = Christ = Gives life
Moon reflects the glory of Father and Son as a law --> Period of lawlessness. Abandoning the Torah.
Rivers are the source of running fresh water. Running water was called living water. Rivers are a flow of life giving truth. Rivers made bitter means pagan doctrines corrupting the truth.
Ships are people who spread the truth. So Revelation says 1/3 of those people get murdered.
Stars are angels. Falling stars is falling angels is heavenly war. It's absolutely totally out of the question literal stars can fall on earth. They look tiny but in reality even one hitting earth will totally turn earth into dust.
There are more words with an extra meaning. Knowing that symbology gives a whole different look on Revelation.
:2c:
the phrases like, "The sun will darken, the moon will turn to blood, the stars will fall from the sky, the mountains will quake, etc are periodically used in prophetic messages of judgment from the OT through to the NT. It makes me think of verses, also occuring more than once describing God as "coming in thick darkness and hailstorms and fire.....
Many of these were spoken by prophets at times of impending judgment against Israel, "The Lord's army marhes before Him, they do not break rank, they leap over the wall"... Joel here at the same time speaking perhaps of Assyrias army, but also speaking f the inevitability of God's judgments, and perhaps all of them pointing to that day of final judgment that all must face, the army time relentlessly bringing God in clouds of thick darkness(death) to all men.
But God who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness is the One who has shone n our hearts to reveal the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."
Quote from: eaglesway on July 10, 2014, 09:01:25 AM
the mountains will quake,
Yeah, that's exactly the Revelation type of thing. It's very much possible literal mountains quake during an earthquake. Mountains can also be literally flattened. But mountains in Scripture also have the meaning of 'places of authority'. RCC is a mountain but also Assyria was once a huge mountain and that mountain has been turned to dust. That once extremely mighty empire is now just a vague memory found in history books. Yeah, and those mountains crumbling is often (always?) because God's fist crushed them.
While there are many possible interpretations of Revelation (I think there are several that are 100% correct) knowing the 'hidden meaning' of words is a huge first step in beginning to understand Revelation. We find those words in the whole Bible, but it's taken into the extreme in Revelation. Combine that with the references to the literal Temple like saints under the altar and silence in heaven and it becomes even more apparent (to me) that starting a Revelation study without knowing these things is a perfect recipe for false doctrine...
In my previous post, I mentioned the different Judgments.
Two of the judgments:
Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
Could this actually be a prophecy regarding the "latter days". As Nineveh is in northern Iraq (ISIS anyone?), and Sheba (African nations) from the south, could be part of an Islamic confederation of ten nations.
Of course this would be from the perspective of a physical fulfillment of the end of this age, not a spiritual perspective, although surely there is something there as well.
This is all assuming the ten kings are an Islamic confederation...
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 10, 2014, 10:09:50 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on July 10, 2014, 09:01:25 AM
the mountains will quake,
Yeah, that's exactly the Revelation type of thing. It's very much possible literal mountains quake during an earthquake. Mountains can also be literally flattened. But mountains in Scripture also have the meaning of 'places of authority'. RCC is a mountain but also Assyria was once a huge mountain and that mountain has been turned to dust. That once extremely mighty empire is now just a vague memory found in history books. Yeah, and those mountains crumbling is often (always?) because God's fist crushed them.
While there are many possible interpretations of Revelation (I think there are several that are 100% correct) knowing the 'hidden meaning' of words is a huge first step in beginning to understand Revelation. We find those words in the whole Bible, but it's taken into the extreme in Revelation. Combine that with the references to the literal Temple like saints under the altar and silence in heaven and it becomes even more apparent (to me) that starting a Revelation study without knowing these things is a perfect recipe for false doctrine...
I agree. Much of what is written in Revelation is in the language of the prophets of the OT and Jesus in the gospels. Much of what Jesus said in the gospels is also in the language of the prophets of the OT, often applying their(prophets) words to the new creation in Christ- which Peter refers to in Acts 3:19. Isaiah 65 is a good example of this. Ezekiel's wheels and Zechariah's Lampstand and Daniel's stars of heaven are all presages to the visions of John's apocalypse(imo). Comparng the statue of Babylon's head of gold in Daniel with the Giant messenger with one foot on the land and one foot on the sea and its head(Jesus) "in the cloud" juxtaposes the kingdoms of man(daniel/head of gold) with the kingdom of God's "one new man"(rev 10 one new man), with the little book(eternal gospel) in his hand. All these clues to things past present and future, images of eternal spiritual reality being first priority(imo). The images of the temple(souls beneath the altar, seraphim, golden altar of incense), as you pointed out, provide great insights into the revelation, as the earthly temple was made from the pattern of the heavenly.
The earth and sea are under His feet.
Sea = nations
Earth = mankind.
For me it symbolizes complete rulership over everything.
There is also a reason we are told above left and right feet because that way we know who He face and who He turns His back too (magog).
Quote from: saintwalee on July 11, 2014, 05:17:15 AM
This is all assuming the ten kings are an Islamic confederation...
From the futurist perspective, I've understood the rulers with no thrones to be the heads of Corporations, since even they have more power than governments and even control them, yet they don't rule over specific land masses.