Was anyone else ever scared to death of Revelations?

[Akira Takahashi]

I can remember avoiding Revelations like it was a plague.  Why?  To be perfectly blunt, it turned the idea of a loving God on its head and instead transformed Him into a vengeful God, ready to incinerate everyone but a few.  The Left Behind series didn't help me overcome my phobia for Revelations, either.

What made me think of this?  A group of Jehova's Witnesses made their way to my door (how they found me I don't know), but rather than their normal rhettoric, they started talking about how we're living in the End Times, and they asked me if I'd ever thought about that.  I admitted that I had, and when they asked me what I thought of that, I replied, "I'm terrified."

Now, here's where I stopped trying to explain my issues with Revelations altogether.  They assured me that I was fine (although, since I'm not part of The Watchtower, I'm positive they didn't think I was 'fine'), and that the End Times was simply the end of the wicked.

Now, when I say, "I'm terrified," I mean not or myself, but for the very wicked these people are referring to.  Why is it that so many Christians assume that when we're talking about eternal bliss or punishment we're always looking out for Number One?  Is it so wrong to care for the wicked?  Aren't we supposed to place ourselves last in the rank of things?  Revelations doesn't scare me when it concerns myself, but it scares the crap out of me when I think about the 'wicked' people I know; but, alas, no one has an explanation for that kind of paranoia.  After all, the only thing that matters is that I'm saved, right?  :dontknow:

[jabcat]

Wow, you've covered a lot of ground here, from the JW's to the plagues :).  A couple of thoughts I have is that Paul was apparently very concerned about what he called his brethren, the fellow Jews, to the point of wishing himself accursed so they could be saved.  It sounds as if you have a good heart for the lost, and IMO that's a good thing.  I think I need to be even more concerned and reaching out to others.

Another thing wrt the JW's...they said you're OK?  They don't believe in UR, so were they saying you weren't wicked or that if you "just got annihilated" it wouldn't be such a big deal? :Shoot:

Personally, I still think Revelation is at least a little unsettling, for one thing, there seems to be so much we generally don't understand, so I feel you on that.  A few things about that though...as I see Revelation, following the Lake of Fire, then the Tree of Life is for the healing of the nations, and there will be no more curse...also, scripture says "the end of the Lord is mercy".

God's blessing, James.

[firstborn888]

I can remember avoiding Revelations like it was a plague.  Why? 

Only the carnal man has anything to fear. Why? Because his end is death. The carnal man's various names are NOT written in the book of life, and so is extinguished by the beautiful lake. The good news is your is fear is consumed by that fire (just like mine) and everyone else's.

blessings,
- Byron

[friarted]

About the JW's thinking that you're "fine", they believe in the annihilation of the wicked, the Heavenly reward of the 144000, and the resurrection of the vast majority of humanity on Paradise Earth for re-education and opportunity to inherit Eternal Life. So they put most people in that last category.

[shibboleth]

What made me think of this?  A group of Jehova's Witnesses made their way to my door (how they found me I don't know), but rather than their normal rhettoric, they started talking about how we're living in the End Times, and they asked me if I'd ever thought about that.  I admitted that I had, and when they asked me what I thought of that, I replied, "I'm terrified."

In the 1970's I used to read everything I could get my hands on about the book of Revelation. I read Hal Lindsey, Salem Kirban and others. Their writings just made me upset and terrified about the end of the world. I have found that these writers, especially Hal, just recycle their writings and put new dates and names on their material. More money has been made on Revelation than any other book of the Bible, probably more money than all the other books combined.

Now I see Rev. as a symbolic book. I haven't studied it thouroughly yet, but I will someday.

As far as the JW's normal rhetoric; the only things they even wanted to talk to me about was the end times and how we could live in the celestial kingdom if we were good people. Just remember that God loves you and don't let anyone tell you otherwise!!!! :icon_flower:

[Redlettervoice]

Quote from: firstborn888 on April 29, 2008, 04:29:05 AM
Quote from: Akira Takahashi on April 29, 2008, 01:25:20 AM
I can remember avoiding Revelations like it was a plague.  Why? 


Only the carnal man has anything to fear. Why? Because his end is death. The carnal man's various names are NOT written in the book of life, and so is extinguished by the beautiful lake. The good news is your is fear is consumed by that fire (just like mine) and everyone else's.

blessings,
- Byron

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE BEAUTIFUL LAKE?

Did anyone else notice how Byron called the "Lake of Fire" THE BEAUTIFUL LAKE?

Because "there" our "fear" is CONSUMED.


Then "that" would be a "death to death" type thing........wouldn't it?

But it would "have" to be "behind the veil" according to what is written in Numbers 16 thru 18
where the "plague" had begun and the "atonement"was ordered by Moses even then to fix things?
I see it was a "protected" ministry too because any stranger that came nigh while Aaron and his
sons were officiating in the atoning behind the veil type ministry would be "put to death."  That
sounds like "death to death" too.

Since Jesus is our "atonement" HE is our high priest NOW behind the veil and is always LOVE, even in the Lake! Does that make
sense?

Surely "all" things work together for good to them that LOVE the Lord!

Seens here like no one could do that "but" HIM, and that it's all in how you look at it.

So, it is a "descent" that happens before an "ascent." Is that right?

Jesus "destroys" "death" doesn't HE?  And where so? in the BEAUTIFUL LAKE?

IT WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT THAT IS A 'BEAUTIFUL TRUST' OF HIS PROMISES.



AND IT TIES IN WITH WHAT IS IN NUMBERS 16 17 AND 18.


Byron, I got something out of your words.........that was "Beautiful" .......thank you.

[martincisneros]

In the 1970's I used to read everything I could get my hands on about the book of Revelation. I read Hal Lindsey, Salem Kirban and others. Their writings just made me upset and terrified about the end of the world. I have found that these writers, especially Hal, just recycle their writings and put new dates and names on their material. More money has been made on Revelation than any other book of the Bible, probably more money than all the other books combined.

Not so much for the money, per se, although more money to get the work of the ministry done, to financially help with Tentmaker, and to do quite a few other things that needed to get done is always nice; but, a really good book on the book of Revelation would probably be the way to get a much larger segment of the Body of Christ to read something deliberately and outspokenly UR.

As you said, the book of Revelation is such a cash cow.  People can't get enough of it.  People have clammered to read why Jesus is coming back next spring for about the last hundred years.  Imagine getting a really solid UR presentation to that many hands :happy3:

It would be nice to have a popular book out on Bible prophecy that doesn't bottomline in how many are Left Behind, or how many are burning alive for as long as God exists.  A real book with a real message on a book that's spawned more controversy, more heart ache, and perhaps more suicides than any other book of the Bible  :cloud9:

And no, I'm not saying this 'cause I just happen to have one to sell ya!

Not.

The furthest that I've written about Revelation is on this book of Revelation board.  I'm still "listening to it."

[reFORMer]

I like the past tense in this thread's heading.  Byron has already pointed to the truth here.

Over time, continuing with God, whether we are personally winning or losing, we come to a more settled and peaceful state.  We sow to the spirit and gain mastery over the flesh.  "For to be carnally minded (lit., disposed) is death; but to be spiritually minded (lit., disposed) is life and peace." (Rom 6⁸)  While this change is already done upon the entrance of the Spirit of God into our lives (cf., Rom 8⁹,) it is practically developed in our character over a period of time.

There have been many incidents and periods of time in my life when I was subjected to some sort of fear.  Even when this was in the dealings of God, it seems mostly a result of being carnally minded.  What happens to those who persist in coming after God is like the man who was seen repeatedly beating his head against a wall.  When he suddenly stopped one of his onlookers asked why had he stopped.  He answered, "Because it feels good."  Time after time, the shelter from the storm that is the Holy Spirit in us is powerful incentive to not be given over to the flesh which produces torment and loss.

The book of Revelation becomes increasingly a comfort and joy as you are more and more taught of God.  It is slanders against God and tradition of men, as well as our own view from pride and a love of the world and the flesh that have corrupted our minds to experience the good word of God as an evil thing.  Listed among other experiences, to, "Have tasted the good word of God..." (Heb 6⁵) is of those who, "Go on unto perfection" or, "maturity" (Heb 6¹).

I will say, that in the early years after my conversion, to fast when seeking God has more than once placed me in what I thought was the time of the Antichrist, the mark of the beast and the "Seven years great tribulation" (a phrase nowhere in Holy Writ!") and several times it was for what seemed to me to be quite a long period of time.  A living hell!  Perhaps they are stories worth telling.  Not enough time for now.

Not as a last word on it, but in a sense we are walking out these things in an allegory if we could only understand the dynamics of our times, those things of our lives that are but masks of the real powers behind them.  The words of the book of Revelation are a key to a mindset that takes away the masks on those things that inhabit our world.  By these words we are made holy and united with God.

[sparrow]

I can remember avoiding Revelations like it was a plague.  Why? 

Only the carnal man has anything to fear. Why? Because his end is death. The carnal man's various names are NOT written in the book of life, and so is extinguished by the beautiful lake. The good news is your is fear is consumed by that fire (just like mine) and everyone else's.

blessings,
- Byron

I love this whole post.
"beautiful lake"...  :happy3: :HeartThrob: :icon_flower:


thanks Byron..
that was so uplifting and comforting and just altogether happy.
:HeartThrob:,
sparrow

[martincisneros]

I have a sneaky suspicion that on some subliminal level that the reason why I started pursuing ministry was because of the fear that was instilled in me through the whole pre-trib, pre-millenialist world view.  Not to mention any names (Hal Lindsey), but some of the Bible prophecy teachers on television would paint such a bleak picture of the world and of ever getting to really accomplish anything in this world (because Jesus could come back any minute now), to where all of my life until I discovered UR and Postmillenialism, I pretty much figured that anything that I wanted to do that was meaningful in this life would be checkmated by the Lord's return.  The idea that Jesus could come back any second, therefore you might have wasted all of this time getting a degree, pursuing a relationship that could lead to marriage, etc., is such mental abuse on those who are younger, that I cannot even begin to tell you what that did to me and my ideas of being a marine biologist, astrophysicist, member of the Coast Guard, etc. 'cause who wants to be out on the open seas when we're suddenly in a world where the "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" scenario is finally playing out and God's finally letting the world know what He really thinks of them?

It was never preached that way, but come on!  Isn't that the bottomline?

I'm definitely tempted by preterism, and not just partial preterism, but total preterism where at least the New Testament is concerned BECAUSE so many of my eschatological views really aren't that dependent upon anything in the New Testament with things in Isaiah, the Hosea 2:18 Covenant, etc.  And so many times the Concordant translation will translate "parousia" as "Presence," which with my Pentecostal background could easily be interpreted as all of Jesus's spiritual comings to us in great power and expressions of His authority, like with the Azusa Street outpouring of the Holy Spirit in 1906 and everything that's happened before and since of that nature/kind of spiritual Invasion of all of the hurts and calamities of mankind with all of these miracle ministries that He's raised up and will continue to raise up until there's no such thing as sorrow, sighing, and illness in the world. 

Too many things in the book of Revelation don't quite add up 100% that way (i.e. along preterist lines) for me 'cause of the devil being in the details, as they say.  There are 200 million man armies in this generation, both Chinese and Islamic, but I doubt there were 200 million people on the whole planet 2000 years ago if you counted all of the hemispheres of the globe back then.  Too many things that scream that even if someone could conclusively prove that there were spiritual fulfillments of the entire book of Revelation 1900 years ago, then perhaps it's a book with multiple fulfillments and that history would always play out that way until we were on the new earth.  There are lots of oddities throughout history that can be pointed to as a sort of "history repeating itself."

But whether any type of preterism or futurist interpretation winds up being the exact meaning of the book of Revelation, the bottomline is how it all turns out in Revelation 5:13, because even in the book of Revelation God spoke the end from the beginning.  I wish that someone had been there when I was little that could have pointed me towards both that verse and the Song of Moses and of the Lamb in Revelation 15, saying, "if you don't understand anything else in the book of Revelation or if you never again understand anything else in Bible prophecy, then hold on to those two passages because they're the absolute truth of the Scriptures -- no matter what you ever see, feel, or hear to the contrary from your own mind, emotions running wild, or Dr Mabel McClutchbutt somewhere who's the latest Bible prophecy expert."

[jabcat]

You're describing my [early] life..."I probably won't get to get married", "I probably won't go to college", "I probably....and what if I'm not ready?".

Preterism is also attractive to me, but what a great point about the 200 mil.  I was thinking earlier about Willi's description of The Revelation/Unveiling, and it made a lot of sense to me, and I like that interpretation....wondering though, and now with your post, perhaps Willi's version is true, that it is a picture of Jesus' work in all of us, but also if there are still many future events as well, i.e., the "is/was/will be" effect.

Dr Mabel McClutchbutt somewhere...the latest Bible prophecy expert."       :pointlaugh:.

[AbbasChild]

The best book on Revelation that I've ever read is 'The Revelation Of Jesus Christ' by Lynn Hiles, published by Destiny Image. I was really surprised to find that the author openly presents UR. But then again, they also publish Charles Slagles books and those of others who are at symphatetic to the idea or even hold to it.

"The Revelation Of Jesus Christ" by Lynn Hiles

[jabcat]

Thanks Floyd...it looks good, I may order it.

[Craig]

I am not scared any more. I used to be scared, but those who fear have not yet been perfected by Love. As I began to understand that God is love, and then began to understand that all mankind is reconciled, I began to read Revelation under a different view. The Lord gave me this instruction, "Read everything from the view of Love." and since then, many things that I was fearful and scared of, ended up just being my misunderstanding.

[martincisneros]

I can't get enough of the book of Revelation.  Read it aloud the other day all of the way through twice in one sitting from the Concordant Literal New Testament.  I nearly sang it the second time.  In fact, I couldn't stop singing of God's judgments in other tongues after I'd gotten through reading it the second time.  Probably would have read it a third time all of the way through, but my heart was too full of rejoicing in God's judgments, KNOWING we're not going to lose a single individual :cloud9:

Whenever a major cruise ship has ever sank, whether the Titanic or any of the handful of others, the only thing that's ever mattered was how many were saved and how many were lost.  The first Adam was the luxury liner that we were all riding upon, once upon a time, and he hit the ice berg in the middle of the ocean and it seemed as though all was lost.  But then came the last Adam, the start of the 2nd human race, and Jesus Christ is rescuing every single one of us.  He knows who is half a nostril above water, and His Hand is plunging into the water after them to pull them out of the watery oblivion threatened by religion that's otherwise known as the "Christless eternity" that all of the fundamentalists scream of.  He's not losing a single one of 'em!  It doesn't matter how quickly this whole building is burning that humanity has been trapped in, that some would call planet earth.  He's reaching every single one of them, moment by moment, day after day!

He's prepared a place for every single one of them at God's right hand.  When John wept and thought that all was lost, someone had to remind him that the Lion of the Tribe of Judah had prevailed and was worthy to open the seals.  As I'm writing this, I'm seeing the Holy City again, descending from heaven.  All of those colors.  The whole thing is just a giant prism that's flashing colors and combinations of colors in every direction.  On the new earth that He's prepared for us, according to Isaiah 54, the colors of the city that are shining in every direction are to remind everyone that He'll never again have wrath towards any of us for any reason whatsoever!  Talk about light and color therapy!  It's not going to be much longer before the whole earth is filled with His glory.

Oh worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness: fear before him, ALL the earth. Psalm 96:9

The earth, O LORD, is full of thy mercy...Psalm 119:64

My mouth shall speak the praise of the LORD: and let ALL flesh bless his holy name for ever and ever. Psalm 145:21

Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for ALL that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above ALL.  Both riches and honor come of thee, and thou reignest over ALL; and in thine hand is power and might; and in thine hand it is to make great, and to give strength unto ALL. 1Chron. 29:11-12

[Akira Takahashi]

Only the carnal man has anything to fear. Why? Because his end is death. The carnal man's various names are NOT written in the book of life, and so is extinguished by the beautiful lake. The good news is your is fear is consumed by that fire (just like mine) and everyone else's.

blessings,
- Byron

I like how you call it the beautiful lake.  That really changed the tone from one of misery and suffering to one of cleansing.