The two witnesses are: Israel and the church

[WhiteWings]

Video: The two witnesses are: Israel and the church
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Text: The two witnesses are: Israel and the church

[thinktank]

I don't see how Israel and the church are two seperate witnesses, for all jew and gentile are one in Christ Jesus.

To me the 2 witnesses are just that, 2 people, one be John of patmos the other Elijah.

[LS]

I don't see how Israel and the church are two seperate witnesses, for all jew and gentile are one in Christ Jesus.

To me the 2 witnesses are just that, 2 people, one be John of patmos the other Elijah.

:goodpost:

[WhiteWings]

Mmmm, two advesaries  :laughing7:

Did you watch the short video in the first link?

Small uncomplet summary.
The witnesses never are called men.

^KJVRev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

^KJVRev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

^KJVJer 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.

^KJVRom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Israel = OT witness
Church = NT witness
Since 1948 (Israel) they both witness.

Well just a thought... :2c:

[thinktank]

Israel = OT witness
Church = NT witness
Since 1948 (Israel) they both witness.

Well just a thought.

whitewings



Isreal is hardly a witness though, since 1948 Cristians have been a minority, sometimes discriminated against, throughout it's small history.

Jesus said to Israel "you will not see me again until you say hassanah be the lord"

I have another verse that compliments the 2 olive trees, I must show it to you.

[micah7:9]

Witnesses:   G3144 martus  mar'-toos
Of uncertain affinity; a witness (literally [judicially] or figuratively [generally]); by analogy a "martyr": - martyr, record, witness.

(KJV)  I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
(YLT)  I have known thy works, and where thou dost dwell--where the throne of the Adversary is --and thou dost hold fast my name, and thou didst not deny my faith, even in the days in which Antipas was my faithful witness, who was put to death beside you, where the Adversary doth dwell.

I remain seeking the identity of the two witnesses of Rev. 11 but I do not accept Israel and the church;  but I believe that Antipas the fatihful witness is Jesus, any thoughts?   Peace and Love Through Jesus

[WhiteWings]

I remain seeking the identity of the two witnesses of Rev. 11 but I do not accept Israel and the church;

Fine with me.
But why do you think Isreal and the church are not the witnesses?

[WhiteWings]

Isreal is hardly a witness though, since 1948 Cristians have been a minority, sometimes discriminated against, throughout it's small history.

The witness is near the end. Maybe that's not now. Plus the witness was also dead for a while. :dontknow:

[thinktank]

Isreal is hardly a witness though, since 1948 Cristians have been a minority, sometimes discriminated against, throughout it's small history.

The witness is near the end. Maybe that's not now. Plus the witness was also dead for a while. :dontknow:

If you look at the power that elijah had that no other prophet did, was to bring fire down from heaven, this is one of the powers that the witnesses posses.

If Israel is the witness are you saying, that that witness is a symbol of a multitude of peoples ie. Christian israelis, so that witness could be 1000 christian Israelis, is that what you are saying?

[WhiteWings]

The video/idea from the OP is not mine.
The author of the video backs up his/her claim with some verses. Straight forward reasoning.
I know Elijah and Moses are often thought to be the 2 witnesses.
That must be based on verses that debunk the idea presented in the video.

so that witness could be 1000 christian Israelis, is that what you are saying?

That's correct according to the verses presented in the video.

So basicly I'm asking some proof why the idea presented in the video is totally insane...

[thinktank]

Mmmm, two advesaries  :laughing7:

Did you watch the short video in the first link?

Small uncomplet summary.
The witnesses never are called men.

^KJVRev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

^KJVRev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

^KJVJer 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.

^KJVRom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Israel = OT witness
Church = NT witness
Since 1948 (Israel) they both witness.

Well just a thought... :2c:

I found the verse I wanted to show you

^KJVRev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

zechariah 4
11What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side therof?
And I answered again

14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the lord of the whole earth.

Jesus Christ = Yesu the anioted one

but these be two

I hope you like it :happygrin:

[LS]

But why do you think Isreal and the church are not the witnesses?

Sorry I posted & disappeared! This has been a busy week.

I think "Israel" and "the church" are one and the same ... not two witnesses, but one.

When I originally supported ThinkTank's post, I should have edited better - I don't necessarily believe it is John & Elijah. 

[thinktank]

The video/idea from the OP is not mine.
The author of the video backs up his/her claim with some verses. Straight forward reasoning.
I know Elijah and Moses are often thought to be the 2 witnesses.
That must be based on verses that debunk the idea presented in the video.

so that witness could be 1000 christian Israelis, is that what you are saying?

That's correct according to the verses presented in the video.

So basicly I'm asking some proof why the idea presented in the video is totally insane...

I don't think it's insane and might be something to it. I cannot load up the video though sorry, takes too long to load. Maybe there are two witnesses and also I would not be suprised if there would be also Israeli multitude of witnesses, but I think these are the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation, rather than the 2 olive trees. :2c:

[micah7:9]

I remain seeking the identity of the two witnesses of Rev. 11 but I do not accept Israel and the church;

Fine with me.
But why do you think Isreal and the church are not the witnesses?

Israel is a state and the chruch is the body of Christ. I do not see where the chruch is killed;
and Israel, the important Israel, spiritual Israel is, I believe the Overcomer. Israel
H3478 he will rule as God. from H8280 to prevail and H410 strength; as adjective mighty; especially the Almighty
Could Law and Grace be the two witnesses?

[WhiteWings]

I do not see where the chruch is killed

I can only guess. But where I live church after church gets closed (even turned in mosques sometimes)
Maybe all members leaving is death?  :dontknow:

[micah7:9]

I do not see where the chruch is killed

I can only guess. But where I live church after church gets closed (even turned in mosques sometimes)
Maybe all members leaving is death?  :dontknow:

You my friend are speaking of the buildings of men. I have read your posts you are beyond that mind set, you know the called out is the body of Christ. The Body is not closed or dead, nor is it dying.

[WhiteWings]

I'm not really speaking about buildings.
The buildings are closed because the people leave them; or never entered them in the first place.
So all potential "church people" are spiritually dead.
Although I admit it's possible to worship outside that building I think looking how much people attend to church is a good measuring stick to see how strong religion is in a certain area :2c:

The Body is not closed or dead, nor is it dying.

Then it gets smaller everyday.
The state of things here is that in, say 1950, only weird people do not go to church.
But today only weird people go to church. (speaking about public opinion)

[micah7:9]

I used to believe the same way, about the diminshing of the believers and that I am pretty much alone, but when I would talk to the Lord, He would always remind me of what one of my first teachers told me. He gave me these verses which have helped me much over the years.
1Ki 19:14  And he saith, `I have been very zealous for Jehovah, God of Hosts; for the sons of Israel have forsaken Thy covenant, Thine altars they have thrown down, and Thy prophets they have slain by the sword, and I am left, I, by myself, and they seek my life--to take it.'
1Ki 19:18  and I have left in Israel seven thousand, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that hath not kissed him.'
Well, it then that I begin to shout! Glory Halleujah!
No His Body (the called out) are very much alive, we just cant see em all!

[micah7:9]

COME ONE BROTHERS AND SISTERS YOU GOTTA HAVE SOMETHING, SOME THOUGHTS. ARE YOU SAYING THAT THE LORD HAS NOT SPOKEN TO YOU ON THIS SUBJECT? YOU HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT? WELL GLORY AND PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST THE SAVIOR OF THE WHOLE WORLD :thumbsup:

[CHB]

KJVRev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

KJVRev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Hi WW,

When you look up the references to these verses you find that the two olive trees are called the "sons of oil" (Zech. 4:11-14). When you look up the references in verse 14, one is (Zech. 3:7) Notice it says "Thus saith the Lord of host; if thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among THESE THAT STAND BY, notice: (Rev. 11:4). Who are these that stand by? Read (Lev. 8:35). They are the sons of Aaron who are also refered to as the sons of oil.

Aaron's sons offered strange fire and God destroyed them by fire. The sons of Zadok are the ones who stayed faithful to God. Zadok was a son of Aaron.

It is all connected with the temple and the positions that were held.

CHB

[thinktank]

Great find about the sons of oil, it also fits in with what I said about the two "anointed ones".

[Doug]

Zechariah 4:5-6
Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

The two things highlighted, the word of the LORD, or the scriptures, and God's Spirit, were identified by Jesus as things that would "testify" of him, in John's gospel. One who "testifies" is a "witness."

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

The two witnesses are said to shut heaven, so it would not rain, like Elijah did in Israel. I suggest the "rain" here represents the word of God, and other gifts of God to the church, that ceased after the apostolic era.

They "turn the waters to blood." In the plagues during the exodus from Egypt, waters were turned to blood so the Egyptians could not drink. The meaning is that the gospel and many of the promises of God to his saints are seen as unpalatable and so are avoided. Prophecy is one example.

The two witnesses "smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will." These are the plagues and other events already specified in the prophecies of scripture. No humans have that power. Neither does the Jewish state, or the church.

How are they killed? The "beast" from the pit represents the deceiver, Satan, who has mislead many Christians, who follow flawed interpretations. There are many ways in which the "two witnesses" have been "killed."

What is the great city? Not Jerusalem, as Jesus was crucified "without the gate." [Hebrews 13:12] The "spiritual" name of the city is Sodom or Egypt, both places from where God's people escaped. This suggests John refers to mystical Babylon, or the world. And Bibles are present, in courts, and libraries, and motels, and are studied in many schools, etc. So they are widely available. Its message has been ridiculed, and discredited, in books, newsgroups, and on TV for example.

The 1,260 days during which they prophesy spans the entire church age, from the first century to now. It is the same as the "time, times, and a half" when the saints are dominated by the "little horn" with "eyes like the eyes of a man," or a human viewpoint. [Daniel 7:25]

It is the period when the saints are scattered. [Daniel 12:7]

It is the time when the holy city is trodden under foot by Gentiles, Revelation 11:2. This holy city is the church. This implies the saints are the "temple" and the true Israel.

It is the time when the church flees to the wilderness where she is nourished. [Revelation 12:6, 14]

It is the last half of the 70th week, the period when Christ confirms his covenant with his church [Daniel 9:26-27]

Doug 

[micah7:9]

Doug wrote: Zechariah 4:5-6
Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD
unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit
, saith the LORD of hosts.

The two things highlighted, the word of the LORD, or the scriptures, and God's Spirit, were identified by Jesus as things that would "testify" of him, in John's gospel. One who "testifies" is a "witness."

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify
of me.

John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify
of me:

The two witnesses are said to shut heaven, so it would not rain, like Elijah did in Israel. I suggest the "rain" here represents the word of God, and other gifts of God to the church, that ceased after the apostolic era.

They "turn the waters to blood." In the plagues during the exodus from Egypt, waters were turned to blood so the Egyptians could not drink. The meaning is that the gospel and many of the promises of God to his saints are seen as unpalatable and so are avoided. Prophecy is one example.

The two witnesses "smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will." These are the plagues and other events already specified in the prophecies of scripture. No humans have that power. Neither does the Jewish state, or the church.

I really like what you wrote.  :thumbsup: :Sparkletooth:

[thinktank]

And their dead bodies shall lie in that great city


It cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Jesus


Words used

Two anointed ones, Jesus is one person called The annointed one

Witness, A witness is one person as spoken by Micah in the above post somewhere

Dead bodies, to me means human flesh, what else?

Powers, similar to Old testament prophets

Prophecies, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great day of the lord
Revelation: Angel said, John of Patmos You must prophecy again before many nations

Those who are ready will receive this truth via the spirit, don't worry if you have not got it yet, plenty of time. The prophets might not be Elijah or John but they are prophesied that they would come in some shape or form.

God bless in Jesus name

[Doug]

And their dead bodies shall lie in that great city


It cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Jesus

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were prophets; Noah, Enoch, Daniel, and many other prophets did not die in the earthly Jerusalem, but they are included in the heavenly one. Jesus died outside Jerusalem, probably on the mount of Olives, as the Roman soldier standing nearby when Jesus died saw the veil of the temple rent from top to bottom, which implies he must have been on an elevated location east of the temple, and well outside the city, no doubt upon the mount of Olives.

Mark 15:37-39
And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

Words used

Two anointed ones, Jesus is one person called The annointed one

Witness, A witness is one person as spoken by Malachi in the above post somewhere

Dead bodies, to me means human flesh, what else?

John 6:51-52
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

The Jews made the mistake of taking the words of Jesus too literally here, and on other occasions.

Powers, similar to Old testament prophets

Prophecies, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great day of the lord
Revelation: Angel said, John of Patmos You must prophecy again before many nations

Those who are ready will receive this truth via the spirit,

Jesus said Elijah had come already.

Matthew 17:12
But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

I suggest the "prophet" Malachi spoke of is the Holy Spirit that Jesus sent to his disciples. The Spirit was in Jesus as well as John; "...the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." [Revelation 19:10]

Doug