The two witnesses are: Israel and the church

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I may or may not agree with them, but I enjoy reading other's commentaries. This view of the 7 years is interesting to me, and I could see it being that. Blessings....

[Doug]

:cloud9: I may or may not agree with them, but I enjoy reading other's commentaries. This view of the 7 years is interesting to me, and I could see it being that. Blessings....

An interesting view of the prophecy of the two witnesses was published by James Brocard in a commentary on Revelation, written in the sixteenth century during a period of religious warfare in France. He applies the prophecy to the situation that then existed. He identified the two witnesses, if I understood him correctly, with the Spirit of Prophecy, and those People who have continued in the word of the Gospel. He wrote in Latin, but a translation in English was made soon after his work appeared, and published in 1582.

The Reuelation of S. Ihon reueled or a paraphrase opening by conference of time and place such things as are both necessary, and profitable for the tyme present: writen in Latine by Iames Brocard, and Englished by Iames Sanford Gent., Imprinted at London: In Fleetestreate neare vnto S. Dunstones Church by Thomas Marshe, 1582.

I have prepared a pdf file which contains his interpretation of the prophecy of the two witnesses, available here.

Another interpretation by John Napier in A plaine discovery of the whole Revelation of S. John, published in 1611, identified the two witnesses as the Old and the New Testaments.

A summary of his view is available here.

My own view on it is a combination of the two; they are the scriptures, as Napier said, and the Spirit of Christ, as Brocard said; so IMO, they each had a bit of the truth!

Doug


Who are the Two Witnesses?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  Yes, they usually do "each" have a piece of the truth. I think that's why the Israelites were told to round off the corners of the field in the harvest, leaving the corners for the poor (poor in spirit) to glean. As we have allowed Him to make us poor to the world, but rich in Spirit, we are being allowed to glean what the harvester's left behind.  :winkgrin: Blessings....

[Doug]

:cloud9:  Yes, they usually do "each" have a piece of the truth. I think that's why the Israelites were told to round off the corners of the field in the harvest, leaving the corners for the poor (poor in spirit) to glean. As we have allowed Him to make us poor to the world, but rich in Spirit, we are being allowed to glean what the harvester's left behind.  :winkgrin: Blessings....

Jes, Jesus said the poor in spirit are the ones who inherit the kingdom of heaven; those who hunger and thirst will be filled.

Matthew 5:3
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:6
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

There is much to be learned in the writings of saints in past ages; they had the spirit of Christ in them; the two witnesses have always been with the church, as James Brocard said in the quote below from his discussion of the two witnesses, which are called two olive trees and two candlesticks.

As it has been said that Spirits stand before the throne; as it has been said that Christ standeth on the right hand of the Father; as it has been said in Zechariah chap. 4, that the two olive branches stand before the ruler of the whole earth; so here I understand the Holy Ghost and the son of God. And because Christ cometh into his members, and the Holy Ghost is poured into them, and worketh in them, the ministers of the Gospel, and of the word of Prophecy are called olive trees and candlesticks and they are called two olive trees and two candlesticks, because Prophecy is injoined in them with the Gospel, and the Gospel with Prophecy, as it was in the Apostles, and because that which is Christ in them, is the Holy Ghost, and that which is the Holy Ghost, is Christ. The these two offices were in the Apostles, and to these two Peter in the beginning of the third chapter of his second epistle willeth the faithful to look; they have been hitherto in the Church, and shall be hereafter, most of all; and now in the greater light we all are willed to receive them. Which also is signified to us in fulfilling the Prophecy of these two witnesses, which are here set forth. Forasmuch as we in this time shall all be Witnesses of the truth of the Gospel, and of the truth of God's word of Prophecy.

Doug

Who are the Two Witnesses?

[Doug]

In the table below, the prophecies in Daniel 12:7, and Revelation 10:5-7, of angels who raise their hand or hands to heaven and sware an oath, are compared. Several interesting points of correspondence can be seen. The prophecy of the two witnesses is inserted between John's account of the angel, and the 7th trumpet to which he refers, and so elements of the prophecy of the two witnesses are included in the comparison.

	Daniel 12	Revelation 10
Angel's clothing	clothed in linen	clothed with a cloud
Angel standing	yes	yes
Angel's location	upon the waters of the river	upon the sea and upon the earth
Angel's hand raised to heaven	yes	yes
Angel swares by "him that liveth for ever"	yes	yes
Duration of the previous period	a time, times, and an half	42 months, 1,260 days
Nature of desolation	Antichrist plants the tabernacles of his palace in the glorious holy mountain; the power of the holy people is scattered	The two witnesses are overcome by the beast which ascends from the bottomless pit, and killed; their corpses then lie exposed in the street
Saints shine	Saints who turn many to righteousness shine as the stars for ever	The two witnesses revive and ascend to heaven
Resurrection	Many raised up to everlasting life; those whose names are written in the book are delivered	When the seventh angel begins to sound, the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of Christ, who reigns for ever and ever. The saints are rewarded; the time of judgment
Completion	All these things are finished	The mystery of God is finished, as declared to the prophets

The table suggests that perhaps there is a connection between the saints shining as the stars, and the two witnesses' ascent to heaven.

Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses?

[peacemaker]

 Some things are temporal, while other things will never pass away.

      "Death is not the end of this journey, it's the beginning."

peacemaker

[micah7:9]

"Death is not the end of this journey, it's the beginning."

Now there is something that will let one sleep with good thoughts.
We need, have to, and must come to that wonderous thought that death is a door that holds no fear....... unless one holds on to deceite, trys to hold back the very thing that keeps joy from ones life.


Well,  I almost got lot in something else...just like this post about the two witnesses.
My input has nothing to do with relevation and two witnesses.

[Doug]

A point of comparison between Daniel 12 and Revelation 10, which I omit from the table in my previous post, is that there seem to be two individuals involved, in both prophecies. In Daniel, one of them asked the question, "How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?" The answer was given by the other person.

In Revelation 10, John hears a voice from heaven, which tells him not to write what he had heard in the seven thunders, and also, to take the little book which was open in the hand of the angel who was standing on the earth and the sea.

So, the presence of two messengers, is yet another way in which the two prophecies correspond, besides those listed in the table.

When John writes, in Revelation 11:3, "And I will give power unto my two witnesses..."
Who is the one speaking?

This refers back to the "angel" introduced in Revelation 10:1, from whom John received the little book, which he had eaten. Several things suggest the angel described here is Christ.

He is clothed with a cloud; Jesus was concealed by a cloud, when he ascended to heaven.

Acts 1:9
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

The cloud possibly alludes to the pillar of cloud, that led the Israelites in the wilderness. [Exodus 13:21-22]

He had a rainbow upon his head, which resembles the description John gave of Jesus in heaven. 

Revelation 4:3
And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

His face was as it were the sun; again, like the description John gave of Jesus. 

Revelation 1:16
And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

Also see Matthew 17:2.

His feet were as pillars of fire, perhaps alluding to the pillar of fire, which was with the Israelites in the wilderness at night.

His voice was like a lion; John previously identifies with Christ with a lion.

Revelation 5:5
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

He stood upon the earth and sea, indicating his authority.

Psalm 24:1
The earth is the LORD's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

Several commentators note that the angel standing upon the earth and the sea seems to refer to Christ. I suggest he is Christ, and the two witnesses are his witnesses. Jesus identified the Spirit, and the scriptures, as two things that would "testify" of him.  [John 5:39; 15:26]

Doug

Who are the Two Witnesses?

[Cardinal]

"Death is not the end of this journey, it's the beginning."

Now there is something that will let one sleep with good thoughts.
We need, have to, and must come to that wonderous thought that death is a door that holds no fear....... unless one holds on to deceite, trys to hold back the very thing that keeps joy from ones life.


Well,  I almost got lot in something else...just like this post about the two witnesses.
My input has nothing to do with relevation and two witnesses.

:cloud9: I don't want to offend anyone, but this mindset that was taught by the churches, is in fact, a thief because it puts the focus on dying and not on living. Death is not a friend, it is an enemy and a thief, and it robs God of a vessel to dwell in. Death is not defeated by dying, it's defeated by NOT DYING.

While there is no condemnation if we end up going the way of the grave (because God is the ultimate decider of our fate), but our hope is Christ in us, and that is a LIVING HOPE, the hope for glory, ie. a body that can walk thru walls and not die. My  :2c: Blessings.....

[peacemaker]

:cloud9: I don't want to offend anyone, but this mindset that was taught by the churches, is in fact, a thief because it puts the focus on dying and not on living. Death is not a friend, it is an enemy and a thief, and it robs God of a vessel to dwell in. Death is not defeated by dying, it's defeated by NOT DYING.

While there is no condemnation if we end up going the way of the grave (because God is the ultimate decider of our fate), but our hope is Christ in us, and that is a LIVING HOPE, the hope for glory, ie. a body that can walk thru walls and not die. My  :2c: Blessings.....

Every journey begins with a first step and every step is its own journey.
Death is not the end of this journey, it's the beginning of a new one, if you will.
No offense taken, for life is eternal; having no beginning or end.

I do not adhere to the traditions of men, who see death as being more universal than life.
Whereas, everyone dies, but not everyone lives?

The significance of life is not in the destination, rather, it is in the journey itself.

"Catching the breath of life with joy."  :cloud9:

Do you hear a second witness, Amen.

peacemaker

[thinktank]

"Death is not the end of this journey, it's the beginning."

Now there is something that will let one sleep with good thoughts.
We need, have to, and must come to that wonderous thought that death is a door that holds no fear....... unless one holds on to deceite, trys to hold back the very thing that keeps joy from ones life.


Well,  I almost got lot in something else...just like this post about the two witnesses.
My input has nothing to do with relevation and two witnesses.

:cloud9: I don't want to offend anyone, but this mindset that was taught by the churches, is in fact, a thief because it puts the focus on dying and not on living. Death is not a friend, it is an enemy and a thief, and it robs God of a vessel to dwell in. Death is not defeated by dying, it's defeated by NOT DYING.

While there is no condemnation if we end up going the way of the grave (because God is the ultimate decider of our fate), but our hope is Christ in us, and that is a LIVING HOPE, the hope for glory, ie. a body that can walk thru walls and not die. My  :2c: Blessings.....

Great post, but I see the point of people who want to be positive in the face of death and try to regard death in a positive light, even though death is an enemy. :2c:

[jabcat]

"Death is not the end of this journey, it's the beginning."

Now there is something that will let one sleep with good thoughts.
We need, have to, and must come to that wonderous thought that death is a door that holds no fear....... unless one holds on to deceite, trys to hold back the very thing that keeps joy from ones life.


Well,  I almost got lot in something else...just like this post about the two witnesses.
My input has nothing to do with relevation and two witnesses.

:cloud9: I don't want to offend anyone, but this mindset that was taught by the churches, is in fact, a thief because it puts the focus on dying and not on living. Death is not a friend, it is an enemy and a thief, and it robs God of a vessel to dwell in. Death is not defeated by dying, it's defeated by NOT DYING.

While there is no condemnation if we end up going the way of the grave (because God is the ultimate decider of our fate), but our hope is Christ in us, and that is a LIVING HOPE, the hope for glory, ie. a body that can walk thru walls and not die. My  :2c: Blessings.....

Great post, but I see the point of people who want to be positive in the face of death and try to regard death in a positive light, even though death is an enemy. :2c:

God may have "unusual" plans for some, I haven't studied that a lot.  I believe at Jesus' glorious appearing, any believer alive and remaining will certainly attain that - in the twinkling of an eye.

However, IMO, even for most believers who have gone and will go by way of the grave, Jesus still has conquered death and has given life immortal to us - on the other side.  Death and the grave are no longer the victor.  Jesus is.

Paul said if he lived, it was for the benefit of Christ - he was sharing the Savior and bringing in believers;  if he died, it would be a blessing to him personally, a "gain" - because he would be in the Presence of His Savior.  So death would be a door to him "getting on with it" - no more trials, no more tears.  That's my understanding.  Blessings, James.

[Cardinal]

"Death is not the end of this journey, it's the beginning."

Now there is something that will let one sleep with good thoughts.
We need, have to, and must come to that wonderous thought that death is a door that holds no fear....... unless one holds on to deceite, trys to hold back the very thing that keeps joy from ones life.


Well,  I almost got lot in something else...just like this post about the two witnesses.
My input has nothing to do with relevation and two witnesses.

:cloud9: I don't want to offend anyone, but this mindset that was taught by the churches, is in fact, a thief because it puts the focus on dying and not on living. Death is not a friend, it is an enemy and a thief, and it robs God of a vessel to dwell in. Death is not defeated by dying, it's defeated by NOT DYING.

While there is no condemnation if we end up going the way of the grave (because God is the ultimate decider of our fate), but our hope is Christ in us, and that is a LIVING HOPE, the hope for glory, ie. a body that can walk thru walls and not die. My  :2c: Blessings.....

Great post, but I see the point of people who want to be positive in the face of death and try to regard death in a positive light, even though death is an enemy. :2c:

:cloud9:  Which is why I said there is no condemnation in it, BUT we are to resist the enemy and he will flee. The problem has been that since Adam died, nearly all men have accepted death, and either we believe it is an enemy or......

There is an angel of death, I have come up against it more than once in it's attack on me and on others, and I'm not going to lay down and die for it, if by the GRACE of God I can resist it. That's my point. Had I thought that way, I'd be dead many times over by now, merely from listening to doctors.   :grave:

I just want to present that there is another hope for men to seek the Lord for.  Blessings....

[jabcat]

I had this posted, removed it while looking for a video (you'll get more out of it if you move the screen down so you aren't distracted by the animation at bottom of link screen  :sigh:).

Card, God has sustained you through a lot.  IMO, your living "is Christ", as Paul said.  You will be rewarded one way or another.   :thumbsup:

Anyway, here's the post -

I guess we need to work on getting back to the OP.    :mblush:     Or if we can't, I can split this off.

A pertinent thought though;  my wife is right now at the hospital with her mother, who is dying of cancer.  They have just apparently found that it has spread to her brain.  She is a strong believer, who has fought this thing in her body of flesh for the past 11 years.  If God raises her up in this life, it will be to her benefit and His glory.  When He's used her for all the benefit He knows is best, then I believe the sooner she can draw her final breath in her decaying clay, and wake in the Presence of the Lord she loves so much, will be a blessing to her and to those who are watching her suffer.  She's lived a good life, helped many people, and run a good race.  To be in His Presence will mean she has finished the course - and will indeed be her gain.     :2c:

Good people underneath the sea of grief
Some get up and walk away
Some will find ultimate relief

It's sad but true
And while we pray for one more heartbeat
The real comfort is with you

You know pain has little mercy
And suffering's no respecter of age, of race or position
I know every prayer gets answered
But the hardest one to pray is slow to come
Oh Lord, not mine, but Thy will be done

Home Free, eventually
At the ultimate healing we will be Home Free
Home Free, oh I've got a feeling
At the ultimate healing
We will be Home Free - c Wayne Watson

Listen here;

http://www.rhapsody.com/player?type=undefined&id=tra.17527685&remote=undefined&page=undefined&pageregion=undefined&guid=undefined&from=undefined&__pcode=

[peacemaker]

I guess we need to work on getting back to the OP.    :mblush:    

Sure enjoyed that song and music, it went extremely well with the screen savers on my computer, thanks!  :thumbsup:

Of course, you are correct. :mblush:
My apologies to you, Whitewings, Doug, and everyone else.  :mblush:

[Doug]

I guess we need to work on getting back to the OP.    :mblush:    

Good point.

In Daniel's prophecy, in chapter 11, it is the king of the north who invades the holy land, and sets up the tabernacles of his palace in "the glorious holy mountain," which represents the church; in the prophecy of the two witnesses in Revelation 11, the two witnesses are overcome and killed by the beast from the bottomless pit.

So, this naturally leads to the question, is the beast from the pit, who is the serpent, and who is bound for 1,000 years in Revelation 20:3, the abomination of desolation that Jesus spoke of?

The fact that he is bound, and cast into the bottomless pit, and in Revelation 11 he begins to ascend from the pit, identifies the beast with Satan.

If the answer is affirmative, then the things that kill the two witnesses, which are many, are the "abomination of desolation." Satan is pictured as a dragon with seven heads in Revelation 12.

The table comparing Revelation 10:5-7 with Daniel 12:7 is updated below.

	Daniel 12	Revelation 10
two speakers	yes	yes
Angel's clothing	clothed in linen	clothed with a cloud
Angel standing	yes	yes
Angel's location	upon the waters of the river	upon the sea and upon the earth
Angel's hand raised to heaven	yes	yes
Angel swares by "him that liveth for ever"	yes	yes
Duration of the previous period	a time, times, and an half	42 months, 1,260 days
Nature of desolation	Antichrist plants the tabernacles of his palace in the glorious holy mountain; the power of the holy people is scattered	The two witnesses are overcome by the beast which ascends from the bottomless pit, and killed; their corpses then lie exposed in the street
identity of desolator	the king of the north	the beast from the bottomless pit, Satan
Saints shine	Saints who turn many to righteousness shine as the stars for ever	The two witnesses revive and ascend to heaven
Resurrection	Many raised up to everlasting life; those whose names are written in the book are delivered	When the seventh angel begins to sound, the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of Christ, who reigns for ever and ever. The saints are rewarded; the time of judgment
Completion	All these things are finished	The mystery of God is finished, as declared to the prophets

Doug
Who are the Two Witnesses?

[Doug]

Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg discussed the numbers given in Revelation 11:2 & 3, the 42 months and the 1,260 days, in the quotation below from his Commentary.

The Revelation of St John: expounded for those who search the Scriptures, Volume 1. By Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg; T. & T. Clark, 1851

http://books.google.com/books?id=PN5JAAAAMAAJ

p. 396

The two and forty months contain only an apparent determination of time; as, indeed, all numbers in the Apocalypse have only an ideal signification; they belong not so properly to the chronological, as to the symbolical forum. The common signature of the dominion of the world over the church in the Revelation, resting on the prophecies of Daniel, (comp. at ch. xii. 6, xiii. 5), is the three and a half, in which we have only to think of the broken seven, the signature of the church. So that the meaning is here conveyed, that however the world may lift itself up, however it may proudly triumph, it can never attain to anything complete and lasting. These three and a half years return again in different forms: a time, two times, and an half time, ch. xii. 14, forty and two months, here and in ch. xiii. 5, 1260 days in ch. xii. 6. In the number of the beast also in ch. xiii. 18, the same thing substantially holds as in these numbers. We have here before us a representation, which does not bring into view some particular period of time in the world's history, but the whole course of it, only that towards the end every thing realizes itself in a more perfect manner. Wherever the world is found overflowing the church, from that of which John himself saw the commencement, to the last in ch. xx. 7--9, of which we have now the beginning before our eyes, there the substance of the prophecy always verifies itself anew, there the obligation still remains to those who are affected by the evil, to take it as the ground of consolation and warning to their hearts. ... The thought in this prophecy was in other respects quite correctly apprehended by the older expositors. Thus on the expression, "the holy city shall be trodden down," Bossuet remarks, "Christians shall be under the sway of the unbelievers; but though the weak shall fall, the church shall continue in strength. This is the first point which St John apprehends in the persecutions: the church continually abiding."

Hmm...
Why would he not have connected the three and a half years, or the "broken seven," with the ministry of Jesus, and thus identified the two periods added together with the 70th week of Daniel? Daniel said "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease..." [Daniel 9:27] Christ confirmed the covenant, in his earthly ministry, and continues to do so today. The destruction of the temple in 70 AD caused the end of sacrifices; that happened "in the midst of the week," which of course is fatal to both preterism and dispensationalism. It seems that it is called a "week," perhaps because it was foreshadowed by the 7 years that Jacob labored, for his bride Rachel.

Evidently, Hengstenberg and other commentators failed to notice how this helps to explain the significance of the "time, times and a half" and the equivalent periods. He was right though, IMO, that it represents the whole course of the church's history, and is not limited to 1,260 literal years as others had claimed.

Doug

Who are the Two Witnesses?

[Doug]

In previous posts I have presented a table comparing the prophecies of Daniel 12:7 and Revelation 10:5-7, which both feature angels who raise their right hand to heaven and swear by him who lives for ever. These are not the only references to such a scene in scripture, as there is a similar one depicted in the verses below:

Deuteronomy 32:39-43
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.
I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

Here the Lord identifies himself as the One who lives for ever, and lifts up his hand to heaven.

This suggests a connection between the prophecies of Revelation 10-11, and Deuteronomy 32. The context supports this. Chapter 31 tells about Moses completing writing the book of the law, which he refers to as a "witness."

Deuteronomy 31:24-30
24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
27 For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death?
28 Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.
29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.
30 And Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended.

The law is called a "witness" and Deuteronomy 32:41 refers to God's sword, which Paul identifies with the scriptures in Ephesians 6:17, and as also seen in Hebrews 4:12.

The foes of Christ and the saints are not flesh and blood; the sword of God is spiritual, and John showed that it proceeds from the mouth of Christ; Revelation 1:16; 2:16; 19:15, 21.

The sword or word of God may be identified with one of the two witnesses in Revelation 11; it wars against the flawed imaginations of man, wrong interpretations, delusions. Christ makes war with his enemies; Revelation 12:7. Both this verse, and Daniel 12:1, refer to Michael, which is another link between these prophecies.

Deuteronomy 32:39-43 and 31:24-30 seem to be connected with the swearing angel in Revelation chapter 10, and the prophecy about the two witnesses in Revelation 11, supporting the idea that one of the two witnesses represents the scriptures.

And the mention of the ark of the covenant in Revelation 11:19, that is seen in the temple in heaven, also supports this. The ark is mentioned in Deuteronomy 32:26, where Moses commands the Levites to put the book of the law in it.

Doug

Who are the Two Witnesses?

[thinktank]

cloud9  Which is why I said there is no condemnation in it, BUT we are to resist the enemy and he will flee. The problem has been that since Adam died, nearly all men have accepted death, and either we believe it is an enemy or......

There is an angel of death, I have come up against it more than once in it's attack on me and on others, and I'm not going to lay down and die for it, if by the GRACE of God I can resist it. That's my point. Had I thought that way, I'd be dead many times over by now, merely from listening to doctors.   grave

I just want to present that there is another hope for men to seek the Lord for.  Blessings...
cardinal

Amen

[micah7:9]

cloud9  Which is why I said there is no condemnation in it, BUT we are to resist the enemy and he will flee. The problem has been that since Adam died, nearly all men have accepted death, and either we believe it is an enemy or......

There is an angel of death, I have come up against it more than once in it's attack on me and on others, and I'm not going to lay down and die for it, if by the GRACE of God I can resist it. That's my point. Had I thought that way, I'd be dead many times over by now, merely from listening to doctors.   grave

I just want to present that there is another hope for men to seek the Lord for.  Blessings...
cardinal

Amen

Is this in the wrong post?

[thinktank]

"Death is not the end of this journey, it's the beginning."

Now there is something that will let one sleep with good thoughts.
We need, have to, and must come to that wonderous thought that death is a door that holds no fear....... unless one holds on to deceite, trys to hold back the very thing that keeps joy from ones life.


Well,  I almost got lot in something else...just like this post about the two witnesses.
My input has nothing to do with relevation and two witnesses.

Is this in the wrong post?
micah


yes, the root has been exposed  :mblush:

[reFORMer]

I still lean to an understanding derived from what Jesus said of "two witnesses."  It was Jesus, what He said as witness to the truth and the miracles His Father did confirming His word.  Each of us is a witness and "God with us," Immanuel, is the other witness.  In other words, each and everyone of us, on that basis, can say, "Just Jesus and me:  we're the two witnesses."

[Doug]

I still lean to an understanding derived from what Jesus said of "two witnesses."  It was Jesus, what He said as witness to the truth and the miracles His Father did confirming His word.  Each of us is a witness and "God with us," Immanuel, is the other witness.  In other words, each and everyone of us, on that basis, can say, "Just Jesus and me:  we're the two witnesses."

I think Jesus referred to the Spirit that was in him as a witness; it was the Spirit that accomplished the works.

Jesus said,   

John 5:31-32
If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

The Spirit he sends to the church, is one of the two witnesses; the other one, IMO, is the scriptures.

John 5:33-37
Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Jesus did many miracles, which works were a witness to the disciples, and people of that age, but we have the witness of the past 19 centuries of history, and of all the saints who have lived in the past, and today, we can see how prophecies are being fulfilled, if we understand them correctly; the prophecy of the two witnesses is one example; the Spirit, and the scriptures, are treated in the media, like the two corpses lying in the street; figuratively of course; it is quite common for comedians, song writers, journalists, film makers, etc., to ridicule the Bible, and people of faith; newsmen usually depict Christianity in the worst possible light; immorality by Catholic priests, or well known evangelists, gets headlines, etc.

Bibles are still best sellers, and are kept around, though they are not read, by most, and when they are read, they are often misinterpreted; the superficial, literal view is preferred, so people are misled. But that is what the scriptures foretold.

How does your idea fit the details of the prophecy? How do "Jesus and me" (or you) fulfill the prophecy about preventing rain, turning waters to blood, smiting the world with plagues? And how about two corpses lying in the street for three days and a half and then reviving?

I don't think Jesus is one of the witnesses himself, as He is the one who the witnesses belong to; and who they bear witness of; they are his two witnesses. In reply #157 I addressed the question, Who spoke the words, "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, ..."  in Revelation 11:3, and presented several reasons why it is Christ, as many commentators have said.

Doug

Who are the Two Witnesses?

[reFORMer]

How does your idea fit the details of the prophecy? How do "Jesus and me" (or you) fulfill the prophecy about preventing rain, turning waters to blood, smiting the world with plagues? And how about two corpses lying in the street for three days and a half and then reviving?

Are you telling me that you never got the flies I sent and the boils I poured out?

[jabcat]

Are you telling me that you never got the flies I sent and the boils I poured out?

:eek: