The two witnesses are: Israel and the church

[Doug]

The "land promise" is prominent in the promises God gave to Abraham, and several scholars have said it has a spiritual application to Christians. I think that this idea provides a background and context to the commandment of Jesus, "flee to the mountains" in Matthew 24:16. For details see this article.

Jesus directed these words to "them which be in Judaea." I suggest that this reference to Judea need not be understood literally. In his prophecy, those who are in Judea, may refer not to ethnic Jews, or Palestinians, but the saints, those who Paul described as "the circumcision," who are spiritually Israelites, and children of Abraham by faith in Christ. Paul said,

Philippians 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

The mountains that Jesus referred to are mountains of Israel, and they are symbolic of the revelations of God, including the prophecies, and promises, and the teachings of Jesus in the sermon of the mount.

The land promise made to Abraham and to Israel provides a background for the 7 trumpets in Revelation. Just as the capture of Jericho heralded the Israelites taking possession of their promised land, the prophecy of the seven trumpets of Revelation heralds the saints taking possession of their promised inheritance, which includes an understanding of all the prophecies in the scriptures. Jesus promised his disciples,

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The connection between the seven trumpets in Revelation and the seven trumpets that were blown before the capture of Jericho by the Israelites, prior to the destruction of the city, shows that there is also a promised land to be possessed by the church. The literal land that Israel possessed in the time of Joshua was a type and figure of spiritual things promised to those who are in Christ.

The prophecy of the two witnesses in Revelation 11 is located in the midst of the account of the seven trumpets, between the 6th and 7th trumpet. The account of the two witnesses tells of their death, and their remarkable revival. After they are killed, their corpses are exposed in the street, and are subjected to ridicule by the world, for three days and a half. Then, they suddenly revive!
   
The two witnesses may be identified as the scriptures, and the Spirit, which fit the description given of their role in the prophecy, up to the point that they are considered lifeless, and become topics of scorn and ridicule by their enemies; they have been overcome, and "killed" by the beast from the bottomless pit, which clearly represents Satan. How has this happened? The prophecies of scripture are understood by Christians in terms of the theories of either preterism, or dispensationalism, which are opposite, and each cancels the other, which effectively "kills" the power of the church's witness to God's word! Paul said,

1 Corinthians 14:6-9
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

This is how the church's message seems to the world; an uncertain sound; Christians fighting one another; almost every prophecy is viewed in either one of two ways; it either describes Jews in 70 AD, or Jews in a future seven year tribulation, which the church escapes by being raptured to heaven! Who could have any real confidence in such beliefs?

John's prophecy of the two witnesses has come true; the word and the Spirit are lifeless corpses, but they are not buried. The prophecies of scripture are studied by scholars, and discussed, debated, many books are published about them, but they are rarely understood or believed. Paul spoke of the last days as characterized by people, "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: ... Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." [2 Timothy 3:5, 7]

What remains to be seen is how the two witnesses revive, and ascend to heaven in a cloud. Their revival suggests that theories of preterism and dispensationalism will be abandoned by the saints, in favor of a better system of interpretation of prophecy.

Doug

[Cardinal]

The message was the fullness of the darkness of mens hearts is being cast out and into the outer court (outer darkness) where their will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when they see what they could have had.

The serpent in Genesis, has grown to become a dragon by Revelation. This is how the "earth"/outer court helps the woman/true church.

This is also why we of the priesthood/inner court are not to judge (in condemnation) what is going on "out there" in outer darkness/outer court as it gets darker, because it has come in part from the HEARTS of the priesthood that He is judging FIRST.

This is where I get lost with what you are saying.   Are you saying that the evil that is being cast out of us is invading others as some kind of conservation of evil?  That we are somehow responsible for all the darkness, even if passively?

:cloud9: Remember me sharing about what He said to me one day when I was getting ready for work and it came on the news about a man that had abducted, tortured and murdered a little girl? I was so grieved over this, I said out loud to Him, not really expecting an answer, "LORD, why do You allow this to go on?!"

He replied, "Well, it's YOUR (spiritual priesthood/inner court) fault!"

I said, shocked, "How is it OUR fault???"

He said, "The body can only do what it sees it's head do. I made you (priesthood) to be one with the Head. So when they see you hate your brother IN YOUR HEART, they go out and kill theirs."

The body sees thru a glass darkly (darkened soul), what it's head does, in the spiritual realm. Hate and murder are as the same sin for this reason.

Also, He told them that when they lusted after a woman IN THEIR HEART, they had already committed adultery. We personally may not with our physical body commit adultery, but because it is in the heart of the priesthood "head", the body (outer court) commits it.

This is why God spared Cain and MARKED (Sheba-ed) him. The hate was in Abel's heart, so Cain, "seeing" thru a darkened glass, murdered him. Abel was the one made righteous (outward cleaning of cup had been done), he had the correct offering (firstfruits, an offering WITH blood) as does the priesthood.

The blood of Christ is the Holy Ghost, which speaks better things. He SHED (His blood is shed as a garment, a covering, a baptism)forth that which they saw AND HEARD, on the day of Pentecost, where the Holy Ghost spoke about the marvelous works of God among men. The blood in the natural tabernacle was used to sprinkle all of the utensils, furniture, and the PRIESTS, to SANCTIFY (means to separate for holy use) them.

Abel's blood cried out for vengance; vengance would have been equal punishment, ie. murder. The life is in the blood, the soul is the life that is in the blood. Eve was the mother of all living (outside of being IN Him).

Heaven's principles rules over the affairs of men, even if they do not realize it. They have only the outer cleaning of the cup, we are expected to press in to have Him do the inner cleaning of the cup, because to whom much is given, much is expected.

Hope this makes it clearer. It's hard to put into words, sometimes. Blessings...

[Beloved Servant]

Where's Ananias?

...ask and you shall receive.
                                        Thanks Card!

[micah7:9]

2Ti 4:3  for there shall be a season when the sound teaching they will not suffer, but according to their own desires to themselves they shall heap up teachers--itching in the hearing,
2Ti 4:4  and indeed, from the truth the hearing they shall turn away, and to the fables they shall be turned aside.

[CHB]

I suggest it corresponds to the flood that is mentioned in Daniel 9:26; "the end thereof shall be with a flood." Both prophecies refer to the same thing. It includes a flood of flawed interpretations of prophecy.

Hi Doug,

I believe you are right about Daniel 9:26 corresponding to (Rev. 12:16).  But what if this has already happened when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD?

CHB

Hi CHB,

I am glad we agree on that point. However, IMO, preterism is part of the flood!

Doug

Hi Doug,

I am not a preterest, at least I don't consider myself to be one but I do believe more things in Revelation have been fulfilled than we realize sometimes. 

Daniel was told that the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.  Revelation is a revealing book, a time of the end. John was an apostle of the Jew's. the Churches existed in John's day.  Jesus was refered to as a LAMB {before crucifixion}. In the very first verse it says "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants THINGS WHICH MUST SHORTLY COME TO PAST. The word shortly surely cannot mean 2000 years later?

My personal opinion is that there are still things that must happen and not all things have been fulfilled. Now, what is still to be fulfilled is still a question?

CHB

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: But again, God's day is a thousand years, so only 2 days have "passed", which would be "shortly". The things have come to pass, are coming to pass, and will come to pass until He be all in all. My  :2c: Blessings...

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Also, I've said many times, that what He shows me is sort of "reverse engineering". Seeing how things were done, the nuts and bolts principles of it, how it's been fulfilled, being fulfilled, will be fulfilled, sort of all at the same time. Blessings...

[Molly]

Whoa

They crossed the Jordan at the time of the flood--because the river always floods at harvest time.  So of course, you would expect a flood from Satan at the end time that the [harvested] church would have to cross through.

Crossing over the Jordan symbolizes crossing from death to life.

The priests carrying the ark [on their shoulders] are showing them the way.

I'm getting kind of dizzy--must be the heat... :laughing7:



14And it came to pass, when the people removed from their tents, to pass over Jordan, and the priests bearing the ark of the covenant before the people;

15And as they that bare the ark were come unto Jordan, and the feet of the priests that bare the ark were dipped in the brim of the water, (for Jordan overfloweth all his banks all the time of harvest,)

16That the waters which came down from above stood and rose up upon an heap very far from the city Adam, that is beside Zaretan: and those that came down toward the sea of the plain, even the salt sea, failed, and were cut off: and the people passed over right against Jericho.

17And the priests that bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD stood firm on dry ground in the midst of Jordan, and all the Israelites passed over on dry ground, until all the people were passed clean over Jordan.

--Joshua 3





"Jordan"

H3381
ירד
yârad
yaw-rad'
A primitive root; to descend (literally to go downwards; or conventionally to a lower region, as the shore, a boundary, the enemy, etc.; or figuratively to fall); causatively to bring down (in all the above applications): -  X abundantly, bring down, carry down, cast down, (cause to) come (-ing) down, fall (down), get down, go (-ing) down (-ward), hang down, X indeed, let down, light (down), put down (off), (cause to, let) run down, sink, subdue, take down.

[CHB]

:cloud9: But again, God's day is a thousand years, so only 2 days have "passed", which would be "shortly". The things have come to pass, are coming to pass, and will come to pass until He be all in all. My  :2c: Blessings...

Hi Cardinal,

Are you saying it is like a threefold prophecy? I do know that sometimes things have a repeat, a lot of time in threes.  If this is what you are saying, you could be right.

CHB

[Doug]

Hi Doug,

I am not a preterest, at least I don't consider myself to be one but I do believe more things in Revelation have been fulfilled than we realize sometimes. 

Daniel was told that the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.  Revelation is a revealing book, a time of the end. John was an apostle of the Jew's. the Churches existed in John's day.  Jesus was refered to as a LAMB {before crucifixion}. In the very first verse it says "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants THINGS WHICH MUST SHORTLY COME TO PAST. The word shortly surely cannot mean 2000 years later?

There is an application of the prophecy in every age, I think; it applies to the entire history of the church, and not, as dispensationalists say about chapters 4 to 18, to a seven year period of tribulation in the future.

The Puritans were certain that it referred to their own times. 

William Fulke on Revelation 12 (1573)

George Gifford's sermons on Revelation (1599)

The Two Witnesses by John Napier (1611)

My personal opinion is that there are still things that must happen and not all things have been fulfilled. Now, what is still to be fulfilled is still a question?

CHB

I think it is true that many things that have been fulfilled are yet to be understood and explained.

Doug

[Cardinal]

Whoa

They crossed the Jordan at the time of the flood--because the river always floods at harvest time.  So of course, you would expect a flood from Satan at the end time that the [harvested] church would have to cross through.

Crossing over the Jordan symbolizes crossing from death to life.

The priests carrying the ark [on their shoulders] are showing them the way.

I'm getting kind of dizzy--must be the heat... :laughing7:



14And it came to pass, when the people removed from their tents, to pass over Jordan, and the priests bearing the ark of the covenant before the people;

15And as they that bare the ark were come unto Jordan, and the feet of the priests that bare the ark were dipped in the brim of the water, (for Jordan overfloweth all his banks all the time of harvest,)

16That the waters which came down from above stood and rose up upon an heap very far from the city Adam, that is beside Zaretan: and those that came down toward the sea of the plain, even the salt sea, failed, and were cut off: and the people passed over right against Jericho.

17And the priests that bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD stood firm on dry ground in the midst of Jordan, and all the Israelites passed over on dry ground, until all the people were passed clean over Jordan.

--Joshua 3





"Jordan"

H3381
ירד
yârad
yaw-rad'
A primitive root; to descend (literally to go downwards; or conventionally to a lower region, as the shore, a boundary, the enemy, etc.; or figuratively to fall); causatively to bring down (in all the above applications): -  X abundantly, bring down, carry down, cast down, (cause to) come (-ing) down, fall (down), get down, go (-ing) down (-ward), hang down, X indeed, let down, light (down), put down (off), (cause to, let) run down, sink, subdue, take down.

:cloud9: Yes.....it's a type of outer court experience also, ie. dying to the flesh, leaving Egypt.

[Cardinal]

:cloud9: But again, God's day is a thousand years, so only 2 days have "passed", which would be "shortly". The things have come to pass, are coming to pass, and will come to pass until He be all in all. My  :2c: Blessings...

Hi Cardinal,

Are you saying it is like a threefold prophecy? I do know that sometimes things have a repeat, a lot of time in threes.  If this is what you are saying, you could be right.

CHB

:cloud9: Yes, that's what I'm trying to say. Spiritually, the Word "means" the same thing to a 1st century Christian as it does a 21st century Christian. It's a spiritual message to mature thru. Since the Spirit controls what is "seen", some things have been hidden revealed in progressive "installments" over time. Blessings.....

[Doug]

The newspaper story below, about a dog who was offered communion in an Anglican church, IMO seems like a good example of how the world rejoices over the death of the two witnesses.

Revelation 11:10
And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Dog's Anglican communion leaves tongues wagging

Joe O'Connor, National Post, With Files From The Daily Telegraph · Tuesday, Jul. 27, 2010

An Anglican priest has apologized for offering communion to a dog, but the act has repercussions for a Church already divided by liberalization measures.

"Communion is a symbol of the sacrifice of Jesus's body; he died for all of us," said Cheryl Chang, director of the Anglican Network in Canada (ANIC). "But I don't recall anything from the Scripture saying anything about Jesus dying for the salvation of our pets.''

Marguerite Rea, the interim priest at St. Peter's Anglican Church in Toronto, offered Trapper -- a four-year-old German shepherd-Rhodesian Ridgeback cross --communion during a church service in late June. It quickly became symbolic of an ever-widening theological rift between the conservative brand of Anglicanism observed by ANIC congregations, which, for example, reject same-sex marriage, and a more liberal-leaning Anglican Church of Canada that condones the rite.

St. Peter's has long stood out as a church with a reputation for being open. Once a year, a service is conducted to bless pets. Even so, Trapper had never set a paw inside the church before his appearance in the pews. And neither had his owner, Duncan Keith.

The pair frequently park themselves on St. Peter's front steps to engage in some quiet reflection. After allegedly being harassed by police during the G20 summit, Mr. Keith and his best friend wandered inside. Rev. Rea invited them to stay.

"The minister welcomed me and said come up and take communion," Mr. Keith said.

"And Trapper came up with me and the minister gave him communion as well," Mr. Keith said.

"There was an old lady in the front just beaming when she saw this. Ninety nine-point-nine per cent of the people in the church love Trapper, and the kids play with him."

One parishioner, though, filed a formal complaint with Bishop Patrick Yu in early July. The man has since left the congregation.

Meanwhile, the dog-loving interim priest, buffeted by the fallout from Trapper's tale ever since the story became public last week, delivered a mea culpa during her sermon on Sunday. Rev. Rea apologized to those who may have been hurt or embarrassed by her actions and rationalized the initial gesture as a way of welcoming a stranger -- and nothing more.

In an interview yesterday, the strain remained evident in Rev. Rea's voice. "Please," she said. "It's over. I said that the incident is over. Thank you very much. God bless."

Catholics, international media outlets and religious pundits south of the border have all taken note of the goings-on at St. Peter's, expressing an array of opinions ranging from the proverbial shrug of the shoulders to outright shock.

"The intention might be to make a visitor feel comfortable, but the real message being sent is that the members of the church don't take communion seriously--so newcomers shouldn't take it seriously either," commentator Joe Carter wrote on First Things, a magazine website dedicated to religious issues in the wider culture. "But if nothing is sacred, then you no longer have a church; you just have a religious club that is going to the dogs."

The majority of the congregation at St. Peter's, including their newest member, disagrees.

"It was just one person who got their nose out of joint," Mr. Keith said. "Holy smokes. This is small stuff. I thought it was innocent and it made me think of the blessing of the animals. This has blown me away. The church is even getting emails from Catholics."

Doug

[Doug]

Here is an explanation of the death of the two witnesses and their corpses left lying in the street, from James Burton Coffman's Commentary on the prophecy in Revelation 11.

What is indicated is the attractiveness and acceptability of the witness of the "dead" churches.

"Here is pictured the church accommodating herself to the ways of the world, proclaiming no unpleasant doctrine, demanding no painful sacrifices, and with the world hailing with satisfaction the prospect of an easy yoke and the cheap purchase of both time and eternity." F60

Only this kind of a dead corpse would be allowed indefinitely a favored location on Broadway. Preachers and commentators indicating by every word they write or speak that they do not believe the Bible to be God's word at all have indeed "killed it" of any significance for those who are deceived by them; but do they "bury it" or even allow it to be buried? Certainly not. They continue to devote their lives to writing and talking about it.

"How great is the delusion of the church, when her silver is turned to dross, her wine to water, and when her voice no longer torments them that dwell upon the earth." F61

Many excellent examples of this phenomenon are visible in those scholarly enemies of the New Testament who deny, absolutely, that it is an inspired, divine revelation from God, but who nevertheless devote their whole lives to writing and lecturing about it.

The two quotations that are included here, F60 and F61, are from: Charles H. Roberson, Studies in Revelation (Tyler, Texas: P. D. Wilmeth, P.O. Box 3305, 1957), p. 74 & 75.

Doug

[Nathan]

Going back to the original topic . . .my two cents is that the two witnesses are Christ and the Holy Spirit in him . .there's no guess work as to when they died and three days later resurrected  .. .

[Doug]

Going back to the original topic . . .my two cents is that the two witnesses are Christ and the Holy Spirit in him . .there's no guess work as to when they died and three days later resurrected  .. .

The first chapter of John refers to Christ as "the Word," and so, the "Word" and the Holy Spirit are two witnesses; they "testify" of Jesus.

The two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth allude to the two trees in the garden of Eden; man was given dominion over the earth and so is "the Lord of the earth."

The fundamental idea that underlies the prophecy is that the saints are the "circumcision," and the "temple" of God, while the "outer court" that was left unmeasured, is given to Gentiles. They "trample the holy city." Also, the 3.5 years, 1,260 days, 42 months, etc., represents the entire age of the church, or the remaining part of it; their revival is seen by their enemies, causes great fear, and it happens all over the world.

Below are comments by Charles D. Alexander in his Revelation Spiritually Understood on the reviving of the two witnesses.

The spirit of life from God entering into the fallen witnesses so that they stand upon their feet once more to the terror of those who had been rejoicing in their death, has an obvious connection with the prophecy of Ezekiel 37 - the resurrection of the dry bones of the house of Israel after the Babylonian captivity: "Come from the four winds O breath, and breathe upon these slain that they may live ..." The word used for "breath" here is the same as for Spirit in Genesis 1:2, "The Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters ...."

As Ezekiel prophesied "the breath came into them and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army". (chap. 37:10) Compare the words in verse 11 of our chapter in Revelation, "the spirit of life from God entered into them and they stood upon their feet."

As the OT church was given into the hand of the Babylon foe till God's time of deliverance came, so in the history of the Christian Church, the power of this world is often permitted for a season to appear to triumph over the church of Christ, until in the pleasure of God the church is revived and stands upon its feet once more. The same expression, "the Spirit of life" is used by Paul in Romans 8:2 - "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."

In short we have here the resuscitation of the gospel testimony in the world after it has been apparently extinguished.

The ascending to heaven in a cloud is symbolic of the elevation of the Lord's people and their testimony above the power of this world, and is an emblem of the final triumph of the kingdom of Christ at the end of time when the redeemed church is completed, and exalted with Christ to the eternal throne.

See Revelation 4:1.The voice "Come up hither", is the voice of Christ. The church and her witnesses will "ascend to heaven in a cloud" and their enemies will behold them - seated in glory around the throne, clothed in white raiment and palms in their hands, singing the new song of eternal redemption accomplished. "And there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." The tables are turned and the world's verdict upon Christ's people is reversed. The "ascending to heaven in a cloud" is similar to the ascension of the LORD.

In order to experience this reviving, the church probably needs to recognize its spiritually "dead" condition. It is certainly "scattered" as Daniel described in Daniel 12:7: "when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished." Tens of thousands of denominations have fulfilled this.

Doug

[micah7:9]

Has anyone been given to believe that the two witness's could be Water and Blood?

1Jn 5:6  This one is he who did come through water and blood--Jesus the Christ, not in the water only, but in the water and the blood; and the Spirit it is that is testifying, because the Spirit is the truth,
1Jn 5:7  because three are who are testifying1Jn 5:8   the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are into the one.

Its just my  :2c: again

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Spirit/blood, Word/water........works for me...... :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

Someone may have already mentioned this, but don't the 2 witnesses lay in the streets dead for a few days while people marvel over it/them?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: My  :2c:.....Streets = places of laying down (outer court), walking (inner court), or standing (Holy of Holies). He does all 3 in us, every man in his order as He is restoring us.

We are His streets, that He is paving with gold (nature of God) like the ark of the covenant was covered within and without with gold.

It takes both the Spirit and the Word to "resurrect" Him (as the completed Spirit and Word in union with the Father) to STAND in the "streets" (mature sons). 

And "they" have been rejoicing over the witnesses "death" in the streets for 2000+ years, but not much longer.....Blessings...

[reFORMer]

Moses brought us out: what happened in "the prophet like unto Moses," Jesus the head, His uniting us with Him in resurrection and ascension by pouring forth the Holy Spirit on Pentecost which transfered us out of the kingdom of darkness.  But, Joshua brought us in:  what happens in the latter days to the Overcomers, the royal priesthood, in the fulfillment of Tabernacles.

Elijah is a kind of former house (Solomon's Temple) that is a replica of the body of Christ at His first coming and Elisha is the latter house (the restoration Temple on returning from Babylon) of greater glory, what God will do with us, the greater works bringing about His reign as we transition into the age of Tabernacles, the Millennial reign.

So, the individuals Moses and Elijah, that was then.  Corporate Joshua and Elisha, this is now!

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: My  :2c:.....Streets = places of laying down (outer court), walking (inner court),

Quote from this thread


Street

4113 platei/a plateia {plat-i'-ah}
Meaning:  1) a broad way, a street
Origin:  from 4116;; n f
Usage:  AV - street 9; 9

A few alternative translations

(Mace)  in the midst of the area, surrounded by the river, was the tree of life, which had twelve fruit-seasons, yielding its fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

(Diaglott-NT)  In midst of the broad place of her and of the river on this side and on that side a wood of life, bearing fruits twelve, according to month each one yielding the fruit of itself; and the leaves of the wood for healing of the nations.

(LITV)  In the midst of its street and of the river, from here and from there, was a tree of life producing twelve fruits: according to one month each yielding its fruit. And the leaves of the tree were for healing of the nations.

Maybe street should be translated as square?
Mace seems to say that the tree is on a island in the middle of the river.


Rev 22:2 The cross of life standing on a island in the middle of the river.
The square is bit like a court Cardinal.
And in a way the holies of holies is a island....  :beach:

[Doug]

Below are some of Hengstenberg's comments on the prophecy of the two witnesses. I have broken it up into paragraphs for improved readability.

The Revelation of St John: expounded for those who search the Scriptures, Volume 1
By Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg
p. 479

The church appears under the symbol of the temple, which for so many centuries was the seat and external representation of the kingdom of God, and hence occurs, otherwise than in vision, in a series of passages in the New Testament as the designation of the church, John ii. 19 ; Mark xiv. 58; Eph. ii. 21, 22; 1 Tim. iii. 15; 2 Cor. vi. 16; 2 Thess. ii. 4; Heb. iii. 6.

The temple proper denotes those, who are deeply filled and penetrated by the spirit of the church, the outer court those, who are only superficially affected. The rising up forms the contrast to the sitting. But both the sitting and the rising belong only to the vision. In the reality, it is the transition from rest to activity, which is denoted by the rising.

The import of the measuring is determined by the opposite throwing out. It is measured as far as the preservation is to go. Where the measuring ceases, there the line of abandoning begins. The figurative representation here rests upon Ezekiel, by whom in ch. xl. the restored temple was measured. The symbolical action here has respect to the preserving of the object represented.

Beside the temple proper, which in the material building at Jerusalem consisted of the Most Holy Place, the residence of God, and the sanctuary, as the ideal abode of believers, the altar also is measured or preserved; and by this we can only understand the altar of burnt offering--comp. on ch. vi. 9. It is here transferred to the temple itself, for the therein can only refer to the temple: measure the temple of God, and the altar (in it), and them that worship in it. This shows that we are here entirely on an ideal territory. In the temple of Jerusalem the altar of burnt-offering stood in the real place of resort to the people, in the outer court; but here it is transferred to their ideal dwelling-place, to the temple itself. The meaning of the altar we learn from ch. vi. 9-11: under the constraining power of love believers present themselves there as a free-will sacrifice to him who has redeemed them with his blood.

Therefore, however hard the world may press, how great soever may be the desolations which it effects in the outworks, still the church remains in existence; the spirit of joyful sacrifice is preserved; true believers continually abide. The court in ver. 2, as contrasted with the temple proper, must not be limited to the outer court, but denotes whatever belonged to the sanctuary beside the temple proper: the without the temple forms a manifest contrast to the within. To designate by the court without those who have not in their souls been penetrated by the spirit of the church, was the more natural, since, according to the phraseology even of the Old Testament, true believers dwell in the house of God, and come into his sanctuary, while the multitude, who are but externally related to the church, only tread the courts--see Isa. i. 12. That the court should be thrown away, and given up to the heathen, stands related to the treading down of the city, as an effect to its cause.

The overflowing of the church by the world brings it to pass, that from many, who have not, shall be taken away even that which they have. Nothing but the strong mound of a firm faith can resist their powerful billows.--The two and forty months contain only an apparent determination of time; as, indeed, all numbers in the Apocalypse have only an ideal signification; they belong not so properly to the chronological, as to the symbolical forum. The common signature of the dominion of the world over the church in the Revelation, resting on the prophecies of Daniel (comp. at ch. xii. 6, xiii. 6), is the three and a half, in which we have only to think of the broken seven, the signature of the church. So that the meaning is here conveyed, that however the world may lift itself up, however it may proudly triumph, it can never attain to anything complete and lasting. These three and a half years return again in different forms; a time, two times, and an half-time, ch. xii. 14, forty and two months, here and in ch. xiii. 5, 1260 days in ch. xii. 6. In the number of the beast also in ch. xiii. 18, the same thing substantially holds as in these numbers. We have here before us a representation, which does not bring into view some particular period of time in the world's history, but the whole course of it, only that towards the end everything realizes itself in a more perfect manner.

Wherever the world is found overflowing the church, from that of which John himself saw the commencement, to the last in ch. xx. 7-9, of which we have now the beginning before our eyes, there the substance of the prophecy always verifies itself anew, there the obligation still remains to those who are affected by the evil, to take it as the ground of consolation and warning to their hearts.

John seems to identify the city with Jerusalem, which of course is a name that is applied to the church in Heb. 12:22-23, but in the same manner that he does with the temple, there is some ambiguity involved, as Jesus "suffered without the gate."

Hengstenberg refers to the "world overflowing the church," which exactly describes the state of things today, IMO.

Doug

[Doug]

When we consider the comments of Hengstenberg previously cited, about the "world overflowing the church," together with the comments by Charles D. Alexander, which I posted previously,  who said the reviving of the two witnesses "has an obvious connection with the prophecy of Ezekiel 37," one of the lessons taught in Revelation 11 is seen to be parallel to, and conform to, events described in chapter 12, where as a result of a great spiritual war, the saints are said to overcome the dragon, who is cast out of heaven.

Revelation 12:10-11
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

In Ezekiel 27:10, the valley of bones that begin to connect one to another forms a great army. "So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army."

They are given God's spirit; and put in their own land.

Ezekiel 37:14
And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

The land referred to here, I suggest, is not the land of Canaan, but what the land of Canaan represents; the invisible things promised to the saints. See Jesus and the land promise. Understanding prophecy is one of those things, as Daniel was informed, at the end time:

Daniel 12:10
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

This is a great promise for the "wise." But prophecy is not meant to be understood by the wicked, and it exposes the deceptions that have overcome the church, that IMO, include preterism, and dispensationalism!

I think Hengstenberg has the right approach to understanding the numbers given in Daniel and Revelation. The "time, times and a half" and its various alternate expressions are a "signature" of the age of the church, the completion of the prophetic "week" when Christ confirms his covenant with his church.

Doug

[Nathan]

:cloud9: But again, God's day is a thousand years, so only 2 days have "passed", which would be "shortly". The things have come to pass, are coming to pass, and will come to pass until He be all in all. My  :2c: Blessings...

Card, that sounds fine at first . .but the issue I have with it was in Daniel, it was clear that the events Daniel saw were not to happen in his day and he was told as much.  And he was also told to seal what he saw.  The first thing you see in Revelation are the seven seals . . .Daniel was told to seal it, John saw the seals being opened by Christ in the spirit, Jesus opened them in the flesh when we referred to Daniel's prophecy in Matthew 24.

Which tells me that because only 600 years or so had passed from when Daniel recorded what he saw to when Jesus revisited it.  600 years . .that's less than a day, and yet the records were to be sealed.  Yet when John saw the same things, he was told specifically "not" to seal them.

So if Daniel was told to seal them and it was only for 600 years, how could John be told to leave them open if it wasn't going to unfold for another 2000? 

I got into trouble earlier this week when I inadvertantly got tangled up with seeing things literally and seeing things spiritually without realizing there is a defining line between the two perspectives.  It feels like many try to do the same things in Revelation by reapplying the natural part of it a second time.  There is no indication, by the way, that these things are reapplied from "age to age".

They were already fulfilled long before we came along.  It culminated 40 years after the cross due to the fact that "that's" what the religious leaders called upon themselves when they were given the chance to let their sin be taken from them by the blood of Christ.

Matt. 27
24When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!"  25All the people answered, "Let his blood be on us and on our children!"  26Then he released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

That's why it was 40 years, they called the curse of sin to come upon themselves and odly enough, they cursed their kids as well.  A generation is considered to be 40 years.  And so at the end of that generation, what they iniated at the crucifixion, became fulfilled.  The judgment that was upon them, that could have passed from them and released at the cross, instead was brought to an accountability to the entire nation as the whole nation of Israel's identity was deeply rooted in the very law that no longer had effect.

As the temple worship went, so went the nation.