The Revealing of Jesus Christ

[Zeek]

Titus pressed the siege of Jerusalem, which was crowded with people because of the paschal festivities, cutting off the water and food supply. The besieged were terribly hard pressed by these tactics, as well as by the insufferable heat. Those who tried to escape were captured and crucified before the very walls as an example to others. According to Josephus, such famine that a mother actually ate the flesh of her own small son. He tells of 2,500,000 assembled at the last Passover just before the city was taken by Titus. 1,000,000 perished in the siege, 347,000 perished in other places. Of the remainder, 97,000 were carried into captivity and 11,000 starved through neglect or sullen refusal of food. On July 17th the daily sacrifices were interrupted.

Mat 24:7  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8  All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10  And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.


Some weeks later, after the legions had assaulted the walls and gained entrance like an irresistible stream, the Romans put to the sword all Jews whom they happened to encounter. Titus desired greatly that the Temple should be spared, and promised to spare the Jews if they would stop their resistance. Several times he sent Josephus to persuade his countrymen, but the providence of God directed otherwise. First the Jews themselves set fire to the court of the temple, and afterwards the Romans. Fire consumed the buildings and the temple went up. But the prophecy of the Redeemer had to be fulfilled; the destruction of the temple occurred on the Jewish Sabbath, August 10th, 70. When Jerusalem was captured, the temple was burned and scavengers would turn over every stone to retrieve the melted gold. The Jewish people were expatriated, and never since has sacrifice been offered up to God on Jewish altars.

Mat 24:19  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The temple was leveled to the ground and utterly destroyed


Mat 24:2  And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


http://latter-rain.com/ot/jewar.htm





Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Col 1:5  For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Col 1:6  Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Col 1:23  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

[CHB]

I see in the Bible that things tend to happen in threes. If this is the case, maybe parts of Revelation will still happen in the future? I do see in Revelation that a lot of it are about things spoken of in the Old Testament. I also believe that a lot of Revelation has already happened but could happen again.

A year ago I couldn't see the above at all, I didn't agree with preterism a bit but I watched a few Mike Bloom sermons on You Tube and he makes a lot of sense. I don't agree that everything has been fulfilled but I do think a lot has. Don't know what the future holds from here on out? Zeek, do you have any ideas?

Anyone else see things this way?

CHB

[Taffy]

Interesting! This will be fascinating to watch as I am just coming to grasp with the preterist view and have found merit in it.

I am eager to see the discourse on this subject.

One question I do have: How would we know whether "the Lord's day" was meant to be Saturday or Sunday for John? Might John have had another significance for the day of the Lord? Resurrection day?

Hi TS

This comes around time after a Time.

Anyways,

Christ is Known as "To day", hes also the LIGHT of The DAY,and we also are the Children of The DAY...to list but a few.

John in REV was In the SPIRIT of the DAY, as paul  says we are SPIRIT(LIFE) NOT Flesh.

The DAY of REST is the SABBATH which Christ is ALSO, He is THE LORD OF THE SABBATH....whicH again, in times of LAW a  ALSO A .DAY

Also scripture LISTS a DAY to the Lord is LIKENED to  a 1000yrs,this isnt a Literal TIME, ITS  a WHO..

Christ seperates the Night from DAY, the NIGHT was the OLD C , the DAY is the NEWC which again IS HIM, its always ALL HIM, nothing changes, as BOTH old and NEW C testify to HIM...one the shadow, the other the reality.


Christ is ALSO the DAY of salvation which scripture states as NOW( IS), ITS ALL THE SAME.

He is the WAY , the Light , The truth , the DAY also Known as the foolishness of God( to the eyes of the world), the wisdom of God, the power of God and so on....


so, if this ISNT the DAY of the LORD now, we too are without HOPE....for mine Just how much of scripture do WE need to see this is NOT just a future event,...HE is and WAS and will be

If you wish for greater detail and listed Scrips..then they will be provided for you.

Blessings
T

[Zeek]

I see in the Bible that things tend to happen in threes. If this is the case, maybe parts of Revelation will still happen in the future? I do see in Revelation that a lot of it are about things spoken of in the Old Testament. I also believe that a lot of Revelation has already happened but could happen again.

A year ago I couldn't see the above at all, I didn't agree with preterism a bit but I watched a few Mike Bloom sermons on You Tube and he makes a lot of sense. I don't agree that everything has been fulfilled but I do think a lot has. Don't know what the future holds from here on out? Zeek, do you have any ideas?

Anyone else see things this way?

CHB

I tend to believe that there is a huge "internal/spiritual" application of the scripture; and what happened literally in the first century; is a reflection NOW internally/spiritually as the HIDDEN MAN is released, revealed.  It's an internal application, my mind being the "garden, the world" etc.   

For me, it is a discovery into the depths of God's love.  A journey with HIM.

Rather than seeing the world as a huge evil place that is going to get worse and worse, and more evil till a catastrophic ending;

i believe the DOOR is open, and NOW is the time to awaken to who we truly are.  I believe this is happening.  I have much hope because of "fulfilled belief", and we are "awakening, discovering" LOVE.

here is a good article

http://www.gem-international.org/kingdomlife/awakening_the_mind_of_christ.htm

Henceforth we know no man after the Flesh.  The NEW is here.  NOW is the time to enjoy. 

[Taffy]

I tend to believe that there is a huge "internal/spiritual" application of the scripture; and what happened literally in the first century; is a reflection NOW internally/spiritually as the HIDDEN MAN is released, revealed.  It's an internal application, my mind being the "garden, the world" etc.

:thumbsup:

[Zeek]

THAT WHICH WAS LOST



"For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." Luke 19:10
Jesus came to seek and to save. He came to seek that which was lost. What was lost? Most religious people would say that Jesus came to seek and to save lost sinners. And they would be correct, according to the words of Paul in 1 Timothy 1:15: "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners...However, Christ Jesus did not save sinners by seeking them. He saved them by seeking that which they had lost.
When Jesus appeared on this earth plane, there were plenty of humans walking the face of the earth. They were the walking dead, manifesting sin in their lives because they had lost something. Jesus did not have to seek sinners. They were very much in evidence. It is what man had lost that Jesus came to seek and to save,- deliver, -preserve.

So Jesus came not to save, deliver, and preserve so -called sinners, nor their human, material consciousness. He came to do away with human, material consciousness or sense, the cause of sin. He came to destroy the lie that held man in bondage all their lives. Jesus came to save divine consciousness, which man had lost. Only the finding, restoration, and preservation of divine consciousness could take away the sin of the world. "Behold the lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world?" John 1:29. Only the Lamb of God nature, the Lamb of God consciousness, has power to free humans from a material sense of life, which makes sin, a sense of separation from God, appear as reality.

The Father did not send Jesus to seek sinners, because God has never known a sinner. God did not send Jesus to improve humanity, because God has never recognized humanity. He cannot seek, save, improve, deliver, preserve something that does not exist as far as He is concerned.

All that God has ever seen, sees now, or will ever see is man made in His own image and likeness. All that God has ever said, says now, and ever will say is, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased. I find no fault in him."

Oh! Think of it! The Father had always been saying these words! He had
always been pleased with his creation. Why? Because it was perfect. And nobody nor nothing could ever change that. But nobody since Adam had been able to hear those wonderful words, because of the sense of separation. The spiritual ear had been shut up. But finally someone whose ear had been opened heard the words! Jesus! He was able to hear them within his own being the moment he came out from under the law at the River Jordan to live under grace. by the grace of God! Then He heard: "This is my beloved son in whom I
am well pleased" And then, and only then, could He cry out: "Abba, Father!"

Jesus had found that which had been lost: He had sought and found His IDENTITY. And He had found it not just for Himself. He knew that what was true of Himself was true of all men. Beloved, the father is not pleased with His sons because they behave themselves, or are 'Good', but because they are His creation, mad in His image and likeness. Is it not wonderful? Beloved, our Father is pleased with you! You are His beloved son. Now, you are his beloved son. Not will be, nor becoming! May your ear be opened to hear Father's voice within telling you so. You must hear it for yourself. Nobody else can convince you. Nobody else can make it reality for you.

The son, the image and likeness of God, has been buried, hidden in the tomb or grave of material sense of being. Paul spoke of the Son the image and likeness of God, being revealed in him by God (Gal. 1:16). How could the Son be revealed in him if the Son had not already been in him.?

Jesus came into this earthly realm to do the will of the Father. However, He was sent forth made of a woman, made under the law. (Gal. 4). Before He could redeem others who were also under the law-slaves to the law of sin and death-He Himself had to be brought forth from under the law. Therefore he had to discover his own true identity, which had been veiled over by flesh (material sense) and resurrect it from the dead. He did this by dissolving the 'dream or lie' of mortal sense, and revealing or bringing to light life and immortality (incorruption). (11 Tim. 1:10). Jesus did not come to earth in the form of a baby already fully aware of whom he was. It would seem, however, that the veil within was thinner than in any other who had ever come to earth. But Jesus had to discover his identity. But in seeking the Father, obeying the Father, loving the Father, and being taught of the Father, Jesus became conscious of the Father within as being His very own and only parent. When He became fully Father conscious, He became fully conscious of His Sonship. He discovered who He was! He realized and walked in the reality of Being individualized: eternal, immortal, invisible, infinity, incorruptible life. He was the firstborn of a new creation. Or, perhaps we could say: the first of the original creation now rediscovered.

Because Jesus came to do the Father's will, His ear was opened to hear the Father's voice within. God awakened him morning by morning (from one dawning of understanding to a greater dawning of understanding), until He was fully awakened from the Adam sleep of mortality. (Isa. 50:4,5). He found Himself to be in God's image and likeness and He was satisfied. "As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied when I awake with thy likeness" (Psalm 1715). Jesus was not rebellious: i.e., He did not try to
hold onto his personal identity or sense of life: but gave it up for the
realization of his true identity, the true sense of life. Jesus awoke to the
knowledge of who He was. He no longer knew himself as mortal being, Jesus of Nazareth, but as the I AM, the Christ, whom God knew from the beginning as the Word. Now, He could say:"My Father and I are one.".

Jesus came to know Himself as He was known by the Father. Did not Paul say that when that which is perfect (understanding, enlightenment, realization) is come, then we shall know (ourselves) even as we are known (by the Father)? Jesus no longer looked in a mirror that gave only a dim, blurred reflection (of reality as in a riddle or enigma), but He saw in reality and face to face. 1cor. 13:10-12. When Jesus sought and found his true identity as the I AM, He heard once again the words that the Father had spoken from the beginning: "You are my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. I find no fault in you."

Jesus knew that nobody else really knew who He was, who they were. He walked alone among dead men, the first to be raised out from among the dead. He set Himself to be about the Fathers business. That business was to demonstrate to men who they were, so that they in turn might find them selves-their true selves, their deity. Which had been lost, buried in the depths of human consciousness as a treasure hidden in a field or a pearl of great price.

Jesus knew that at on time man knew God, and therefore, themselves. Rom.1). But man had pushed down his deity into the deepest grave of forgetfulness. So there was man-true man-the image and likeness of God-in the grave asleep. While false man seemingly was walking and talking and moving upon the earth.

When Jesus rose up from the grave of mortal consciousness and finally ascended above all mortal sense, He brought all men up with Him. He was the first-born from among the dead, but the first-born among many brethren. Because the deity of Jesus, which was temporarily buried in the grave of forgetfulness when Jesse entered the world, was awakened and brought to life when He heard the Father's voice: so the deity of each man, the true son of God, which every man is, brought to light when that man hears the voice of the Son of God and is brought to light when that man hears the voice of the Son of God and is resurrected to newness of life. John 5:25.

Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life." He is the way for our
own experience of reality , our own personal knowing of the truth of our
identity as I AM. I AM the Light that lights every man that comes into the world, but every man must experience his own light.

Jesus was brought into the human experience as He partook of flesh and blood. He was then awakened to his own identity-deity. This took place as he sought and found that he did not have beginning with human, biological parents in a flesh body in a certain race and culture, but that he had come from above, from God , with whom he had always existed. That its why he said to the Pharisees that he came from above, but that they came from below. This is the knowledge that was lost to man. It is still there, buried deep within, but lost from conscious awareness. This causes men to walk in ignorance in a false identity. Yet within most men is felt some vague flicker, some lost memory which cannot be grasped, which causes a dissatisfaction in them. Thus men seek for a meaning to life very often, but seek in al the wrong places.

When a person discovers through remembrance that he is born of God and no longer calls any man "father", he is 'Born again". It is a role of the Holy Ghost to bring this truth to our remembrance. Yes, Christ has come to us to indwell us, and bring this lost, forgotten identity to our remembrance. Christ gives us this reborn experience as the Son with in is revealed (unveiled, disclosed). Now we have the same experience Jesus had, and that which we truly are saved. Jesus is not about himself as a separate person or individual. Jesus is about every man. Everything that he discovered about himself he discovered
about the universal son of God which every man is in the essence of his being . When we individually seek and find our true identity, also, we know that this was not something received at the time of our conversion, but something that has been from the beginning.

Jesus proves that man born of God is the Son of God and not the shell that human perception sees man to be. Jesus proves that true man is not a creature made of dust to turn again to dust and despair. He is a part of the eternal whole. There never was a time when he was not. A time will never come when he will not be.

Johanna Pascale

[Tony N]

Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains


"Josephus tells us that when Cestius Gallus had earlier come with his army against Jerusalem, after some time he raised the siege. After he had left, many of the oldest of the Jews went out from Jerusalem as from a sinking ship. He says that a few years later, when Vespasian come with his troops against Jerusalem, a great multitude fled from Jerusalem to the mountains for security. It is reasonable to suppose that some Christians were among these. When Jerusalem was surrounded, the Christians were to think of their safety, and seize the first opportunity for flight. Jesus had warned them when these things started happening to flee into the mountains."

http://latter-rain.com/ot/jewar.htm

The interesting thing is not what Josephus wrote but what he left out. He obviously left out the greatest earth shaking, earth shattering earthquake the world will ever know in which ALL the cities of the nations shall fall and all the islands will be moved. He accidently left out all the signs and wonders of the sun being darkened, the moon turned to blood, stars falling from the sky, the powers of the heavens shaken, etc. etc. etc.

Josephus also forgot to write about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the righteous coming out of their tombs and entering into the kingdom which Christ set up in Jerusalam and from there ruling over the nations.

Josephus also forgot to write about all the Christians coming out of their tombs and meeting the Christians alive at that time and ascending to Christ in the air.

He also forgot to write about the 3 1/2 years of the greatest tribulation Israel will ever go through by the antichrist.

He also forgot to write about Christ killing the antichrist and capturing Satan for 1000 years and during that 1000 years the nations were not deceived. Ghee, what happened? Were all the nations ever not deceived since Christ left? Was there ever a time since Christ left that Satan was not deceiving the nations?

Josephus never wrote about Peter and the eleven apostles coming back to life and ruling over the nations with Christ from Jerusalem.

Josephus was not the only historian back then. They all, all the historians failed to see any of these earth shattering events! The church also never wrote about them happenning.

Therefore Revelation has not happened yet. The 1000 year kingdom has not arrived yet.

Tony

[Tony N]

Interesting! This will be fascinating to watch as I am just coming to grasp with the preterist view and have found merit in it.

I am eager to see the discourse on this subject.

One question I do have: How would we know whether "the Lord's day" was meant to be Saturday or Sunday for John? Might John have had another significance for the day of the Lord? Resurrection day?

Hi TS

This comes around time after a Time.

Anyways,

Christ is Known as "To day", hes also the LIGHT of The DAY,and we also are the Children of The DAY...to list but a few.

John in REV was In the SPIRIT of the DAY, as paul  says we are SPIRIT(LIFE) NOT Flesh.

Incorrect. Please stick with Scripture, Taffy. The Scripture does not say "John was in the spirit of the day." John stated "I came to be in spirit IN the Lord's day." And what does Revelation say to those who add or subtract from the words of that prophecy?

Let's not make things up as we go along but stick with what God has said. O.K.  :thumbsup:

[Taffy]

Interesting! This will be fascinating to watch as I am just coming to grasp with the preterist view and have found merit in it.

I am eager to see the discourse on this subject.

One question I do have: How would we know whether "the Lord's day" was meant to be Saturday or Sunday for John? Might John have had another significance for the day of the Lord? Resurrection day?

Hi TS

This comes around time after a Time.

Anyways,

Christ is Known as "To day", hes also the LIGHT of The DAY,and we also are the Children of The DAY...to list but a few.

John in REV was In the SPIRIT of the DAY, as paul  says we are SPIRIT(LIFE) NOT Flesh.

Incorrect. Please stick with Scripture, Taffy. The Scripture does not say "John was in the spirit of the day." John stated "I came to be in spirit IN the Lord's day." And what does Revelation say to those who add or subtract from the words of that prophecy?

Let's not make things up as we go along but stick with what God has said. O.K.  :thumbsup:

Well Hi Tony, sorry bud for the ADD lib..

so what was the spirit of the """""""""""""""""""""""  LORDS DAY""""""""""""""""""""

maybe theres Two Days of the LORD..or maybe THREE...HOW many do you Know and where can I find them?

or are you totally dismissing the LITTLE section Which was given,,,,ANY COMMENT THERE BUD


SCRIPTURE WILL BE FINE

[Zeek]

"If you are not familiar with the apocalyptic language of the Old Testament, you will not understand what Christ is saying here. This language is common among the Old Testament prophets. This idea is seen clearly as we look at passages where mention is made of the destruction of a state and government using language which seems to set forth the end of the world.

Isaiah 13:1 (NKJV) The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw.

In this chapter God is talking about the judgement that is to fall upon Babylon. The word "burden" is the Hebrew word "massa", an utterance, chiefly a doom. This introduction sets the stage for the subject matter in this chapter, and if we forget this, our interpretations of Isaiah 13 can go just about anywhere our imagination wants to go. This is not an oracle against the universe or world but against the nation of Babylon.

Isaiah 13:6 (NKJV) Wail, for the day of the LORD is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.

Isaiah 13:9-13 (NKJV) Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine. 11 "I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. 12 I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold, A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the LORD of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger.

Now remember, he is speaking about the destruction of Babylon, but is sounds like world wide destruction. The terminology of a context cannot be expanded beyond the scope of the subject under discussion. The spectrum of language surely cannot go outside the land of Babylon. If you were a Babylonian and Babylon was destroyed, would it seem like the world was destroyed? Yes! Your world would be destroyed.

Isaiah 13:17 (NKJV) "Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, Who will not regard silver; And as for gold, they will not delight in it.

This is an historical event that took place in 539 BC. When the Medes destroyed Babylon, the Babylonian world came to an end. This destruction is said, in verse 6, to be from the Almighty, and the Medes constitute the means that God uses to accomplish this task. This is apocalyptic language. This is the way the Bible discusses the fall of a nation. This is obviously figurative language. God did not intend for us to take this literally. If we take this literally, the world ended in 539 BC.

In Isaiah 34, we have a description of the fall of Edom, notice the language that is used:

Isaiah 34:3-5 (NKJV) Also their slain shall be thrown out; Their stench shall rise from their corpses, And the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree. 5 "For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment.

This is Biblical language to describe the fall of a nation. It should be clear that it is not to be taken literally. Let's look at other Old Testament use of this language.

Nahum 1 (NKJV) The burden against Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkocrape. 2 God is jealous, and the LORD avenges; The LORD avenges and is furious. The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies; 3 The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked. The LORD has His way In the whirlwind and in the storm, And the clouds are the dust of His feet. 4 He rebukes the sea and makes it dry, And dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither, And the flower of Lebanon wilts. 5 The mountains quake before Him, The hills melt, And the earth heaves at His presence, Yes, the world and all who dwell in it.

The subject of this judgement is Nineveh, not the physical world. This is the way God describes the fall of a nation. If this language describes the judgement of God on nations, why, when we come to the New Testament, do we make it be the destruction of the universe? It is only because we do not understand how the Bible uses this apocalyptic language.

Ezekiel speaks in the same manner of Egypt:

Ezekiel 32:7-8 (NKJV) When I put out your light, I will cover the heavens, and make its stars dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, And the moon shall not give her light. 8 All the bright lights of the heavens I will make dark over you, And bring darkness upon your land,' Says the Lord GOD.

The prophet Daniel speaks, in the same manner, of the slaughter of the Jews by the little horn, the power of the Romans.

Daniel 8:10 (NKJV) And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them.

In the prophetic language, great commotions and revolutions upon earth are often represented by commotions and changes in the heavens. None of these things literally took place!

Milton Terry said, " From these quotations it is apparent that there is scarcely an expression employed in Matthew and Luke which has not been taken from the Old Testament Scriptures. Such apocalyptic forms of speech are not to be assumed to convey in the New Testament a meaning different from that which they bear in the Hebrew Scriptures. They are part and parcel of the genius of prophetic language."

Samuel Hinds (1829) said, "It requires but a slender acquaintance with the writings of the Old Testament prophets to enable us to observe the peculiarity. It is not only figurative, but the figures are of the boldest kind, involving analogies so remote, as in some instances to be scarcely discoverable. If revolutions in empires be the subject, the prophetic representation is filled with disturbance of the laws of the natural world, and the sun, moon, and stars, are exhibited in commotion. If a deliverer is promised to the Jews, the prophet expresses the promise by the rising of a star, and the like" (Hinds, pp. 209-210)

Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727) said, "The figurative language of the prophets is taken from the analogy between the world natural and an empire or kingdom considered as a world politic. Accordingly, the world natural, consisting of heaven and earth, signifies the whole world politic, consisting of thrones and people, or so much of it as is considered in prophecy; and the things in that world signify the analogous things in this. For the heavens and the things therein signify thrones and dignities, and those who enjoy them: and the earth, with the things thereon, the inferior people; and the lowest parts of the earth, called Hades or Hell, the lowest or most miserable part of them. Great earthquakes, and the shaking of heaven and earth, are put for the shaking of kingdoms, so as to distract and overthrow them; the creating of a new heaven and earth, and the passing of an old one; or the beginning and end of a world, for the rise and ruin of a body politic signified thereby. The sun, for the whole species and race of kings, in the kingdoms of the world politic; the moon, for the body of common people considered as the king's wife; the starts, for subordinate princes and great men; or for bishops and rulers of the people of God, when the sun is Christ. Setting of the sun, moon, and stars; darkening the sun, turning the moon into blood, and falling of the stars, for the ceasing of a kingdom."(Observations on the Prophecies, Part i. chap. ii)

Dr. John Owen (1721) said, "Not to hold you too long upon what is so plain and evident, you may take it for a rule, that, in the denunciations of the judgments of God, through all the prophets, heaven, sun, moon, stars, and the like appearing beauties and glories of the aspectable heavens, are taken for governments, governors, dominions in political states, as Isa. 14:12-15; Jer 15:9, 51:25. Isaiah 13:13; Ps. 68:6; Joel 2:10; Rev. 8:12; Matt. 24:29; Luke 21:25; Isa 60:20; Obad. 4; Rev 8:13; 11:12; 20:11." (vol. 8, p. 255, in a sermon entitled Shaking and Translating of Heaven and Earth, preached on April 19, 1649)

James Stuart Russell (1878) said, "The symbols are, in fact, equivalent to those employed by our Lord when predicting the doom of Israel. 'Immediately after the tribulation of those days (the horrors of the siege of Jerusalem) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken (Matt 24:29). Both passages refer to the same catastrophe and employ very similar figures; besides which we have the authority of our Lord for fixing the event and the period of which He speaks within the limits of the generation then in existence: that is to say, the reference can only be to the judgment of the Jewish nation and the abrogation of the Mosaic economy at the Parousia." (p. 289-290).

John Gill (1809) said, "Ver. 29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days, &c.] That is, immediately after the distress the Jews would be in through the siege of Jerusalem, and the calamities attending it; just upon the destruction of that city, and the temple in it, with the whole nation of the Jews, shall the following things come to pass;...... and that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, will not answer to the word 'immediately', or show that that should be understood of two thousand years after: besides, all the following things were to be fulfilled before that present generation, in which Christ lived, passed away, #Mt 24:34 and therefore must be understood of things that should directly, and immediately take place upon, or at the destruction of the city and temple."

We see this apocalyptic language used all through the book of Revelation. I believe that the book of Revelation is an expanded version of the Olivet Discourse. Notice how John used apocalyptic language.

Revelation 6:13-17 (NKJV) And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

Is this talking about the end of the world in our future? NO! John is dealing with Jerusalem's destruction in AD 70. Look at what Jesus said as he was on his way to be crucified:

Luke 23:28-30 (NKJV) But Jesus, turning to them, said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 "For indeed the days are coming in which they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, wombs that never bore, and breasts which never nursed!' 30 "Then they will begin 'to say to the mountains, "Fall on us!" and to the hills, "Cover us!"'

Jesus was telling the women of His day to weep for THEMSELVES because judgement was going to come upon THEM. In Revelation 6, during the great tribulation which happened in AD 67-70, we see them crying out for the mountains to fall on them, just as Jesus said they would. This language is picturing the response of sinful man to the awful judgement of God.

The biblical evidence is overwhelming, the Olivet Discourse, in its entirety, is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. The only thing that would make us push any of these things into the future are our own presuppositions. In this vivid picturesque language Jesus is describing Jerusalem's destruction. In AD 70, the lights went out in Israel for good. When the tribulation was over, physical Israel ceased to exist. God's people were no longer distinguished by physical birth, but by spiritual birth alone. The Old Covenant was over, and the New fully instituted. "


http://bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/lights_went_out.htm

[Tony N]

Interesting! This will be fascinating to watch as I am just coming to grasp with the preterist view and have found merit in it.

I am eager to see the discourse on this subject.

One question I do have: How would we know whether "the Lord's day" was meant to be Saturday or Sunday for John? Might John have had another significance for the day of the Lord? Resurrection day?

Hi TS

This comes around time after a Time.

Anyways,

Christ is Known as "To day", hes also the LIGHT of The DAY,and we also are the Children of The DAY...to list but a few.

John in REV was In the SPIRIT of the DAY, as paul  says we are SPIRIT(LIFE) NOT Flesh.

Incorrect. Please stick with Scripture, Taffy. The Scripture does not say "John was in the spirit of the day." John stated "I came to be in spirit IN the Lord's day." And what does Revelation say to those who add or subtract from the words of that prophecy?

Let's not make things up as we go along but stick with what God has said. O.K.  :thumbsup:

Well Hi Tony, sorry bud for the ADD lib..

so what was the spirit of the """""""""""""""""""""""  LORDS DAY""""""""""""""""""""

Dear Taffy,
John did not say he was "in spirit of the Lords day." He said "I came to be in spirit in the Lord's day." So the question you pose is not germain to the point John made.

maybe theres Two Days of the LORD..or maybe THREE...HOW many do you Know and where can I find them?

or are you totally dismissing the LITTLE section Which was given,,,,ANY COMMENT THERE BUD
SCRIPTURE WILL BE FINE

Scriptures concerning the day of the Lord have already been given in this thread. That day is the same as the day of Yahweh Isaiah wrote about and which Christ cited in Matthew 24 and which Peter cited in Acts 2:20. The Lord's day is yet future. John was in spirit in that future day.

[rosered]

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,


Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, Whatyou see , write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.


Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;


Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

  My Bible says John  was IN the SPIRIT ON THE LORDS DAY ..   In  and on  being the same words!

   1) in, by, with etc.a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537)

[rosered]

i also believe alot of revelation has been and is being fulfilled  even now


  Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John: apokalypsis
Pronunciation

ä-po-kä'-lü-psēs (Key)

Part of Speech
feminine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

from G601

TDNT Reference
3:563,405
Vines
View Entry


Outline of Biblical Usage 1) laying bare, making naked

2) a disclosure of truth, instruction

a) concerning things before unknown

b) used of events by which things or states or persons hitherto withdrawn from view are made visible to all

3) manifestation, appearance

I see Jesus in and thoughout the BOOK in Spirit and Truth   :happygrin:

[Tony N]

Revelation 6:13-17 (NKJV) And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

Is this talking about the end of the world in our future? NO! John is dealing with Jerusalem's destruction in AD 70.  

dear Zeek,
It seems you and I are at polar ends these days.
If Revelation has already come to pass, if that which you quote above has already come to pass then you must conclude that this has already come to pass:

1Th 4:13-18  Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation."  (14)  For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him."  (15)  For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose,  (16)  for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first,  (17)  Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord."  (18)  So that, console one another with these words."

If the above has come to pass then you and I are living on the new earth at this very moment and God and Christ are reigning in Jerusalem along with the 12 apostles and no nation is presently deceived for Satan and the false prophet are imprisoned.

We have no future resurrection to look forward to for all my friends who died are in their graves. All who were to be saved of the nations were saved prior to 70 A.D.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob somehow resurrected a couple thousand years ago and sat down in the kingdom which Christ ruled over but all the earth never saw it. It was a dismal failure. Christ came and went. He must have lied about ruling over the whole earth with the twelve. What an abject failure!

[Taffy]

Dear Taffy,
John did not say he was "in spirit of the Lords day." He said "I came to be in spirit in the Lord's day." So the question you pose is not germain to the point John made.

Hi Tony , Then maybe HOW did he become TO BE IN the THE Lords DAY...FLOAT?...in or or ON go Check?

Your quotes from Math and Acts bear no reference,to the LORDS DAY some futuristic event..maybe you could consider and refute the little Zeek has proposed?.

, you totally dismIss without quote or SCRIPTURE to the Little  shared ON THE DAY of the LORD....

AGAIN T..dismiss this FIRST and we will continue...


please dont throw a Red flag at me bro...we can share and learn together :icon_flower:

[Tony N]

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,



  My Bible says John  was IN the SPIRIT ON THE LORDS DAY ..   In  and on  being the same words!

Sorry to have to say this rosered but your bible is just wrong.
Look at any Greek text from which we get the Bible. The Greek text says: I John was in (Grk. en) spirit in (Grk. en) the Lord's day."
The Greek word for "in" is "en."
The Greek word for "on" is "epi."
Epi is absent.

Better get a better bible.

[Zeek]

Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


Heb 9:1  Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

Heb 9:2  For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

Heb 9:8  The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:



Heb 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Heb 10:1  For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.


Heb 10:9  Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Heb 10:25  Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Heb 10:26  For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Heb 10:28  He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Heb 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant,
wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Heb 10:30  For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Heb 10:31  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Heb 10:37  For yet, a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

[Molly]

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/jewishtemple.htm


Dan 9:26  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Rev 18:2  And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Mat 24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Luk 21:33  Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Oh my goodness..

Babylon...is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

:mshock:

[Tony N]

Dear Taffy,
John did not say he was "in spirit of the Lords day." He said "I came to be in spirit in the Lord's day." So the question you pose is not germain to the point John made.

Hi Tony , Then maybe HOW did he become TO BE IN the THE Lords DAY...FLOAT?...in or or ON go Check?

Dear Taffy, he was "IN (Greek en) spirit IN (Greek en) the Lord's day." If he was in spirit ON the Lord's day then John would have used "epi" for "on." Get it?
How did he come to be in the Lord's day? He came to be in the Lord's day IN SPIRIT. It was a vision. John said: Rev 9:17 "And thus I perceived the horses in the vision,"

Your quotes from Math and Acts bear no reference,to the LORDS DAY some futuristic event..maybe you could consider and refute the little Zeek has proposed?.

Of course they bear directly on the subject at hand.

, you totally dismIss without quote or SCRIPTURE to the Little  shared ON THE DAY of the LORD....

Please note my other posts to Zeek and rosered as to in or on the Lord's day.

[Zeek]

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

[Zeek]

Rom 13:11-12 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Rom 16:20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Jas 5:7-9 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

1Pet 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers.

Phil 4:5 Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.

1Cor 1:4-8 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, That you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, So that you come short in no gift,

1Cor 7:29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none,

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Rev 22:10 And he said to me, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.

[Taffy]

Dear Taffy,
John did not say he was "in spirit of the Lords day." He said "I came to be in spirit in the Lord's day." So the question you pose is not germain to the point John made.

Hi Tony , Then maybe HOW did he become TO BE IN the THE Lords DAY...FLOAT?...in or or ON go Check?

Dear Taffy, he was "IN (Greek en) spirit IN (Greek en) the Lord's day." If he was in spirit ON the Lord's day then John would have used "epi" for "on." Get it?
How did he come to be in the Lord's day? He came to be in the Lord's day IN SPIRIT. It was a vision. John said: Rev 9:17 "And thus I perceived the horses in the vision,"

Your quotes from Math and Acts bear no reference,to the LORDS DAY some futuristic event..maybe you could consider and refute the little Zeek has proposed?.

Of course they bear directly on the subject at hand.

, you totally dismIss without quote or SCRIPTURE to the Little  shared ON THE DAY of the LORD....

Please note my other posts to Zeek and rosered as to in or on the Lord's day.

Yes T..I did

What you dont GET TONY is the LORDS DAY,,be in  or ON it.....

AGAIN you dont note NOR recognise the few words Shared ON WHAT and WHO the LORDS day is..you dimeiss them

you gave me Two, which in reality bear litte reference to what the LORDS day is,,,,is talks of the LORDS day but doesnt tell us """""""""""" WHO """" it is,,,,..DO YOU GET THAT bro,,,,


FIRST find OUT what and who THE lords DAY IS.... and lets Talk about what HAPPENS ON or IN it...DO YOU GET THAT.?

try again TN...dont dismiss those scrips

[Sarah]

Tony, I'm not sure where you are getting that the word is 'in' and not 'on' in Revelations regarding the Day of the Lord. I'm a little confused by your argument as to the magnitude of your view of a misinterpertation. Obviously what John saw was future for him, but would shortly come to pass, and was at hand. How do you explain the immediancy issue? To me, if we are still looking for a fulfillment then we must accept that most of the prophets, including Jesus had it wrong in their view as to when these things would take place.

I do understand the futurist view in that it gives hope in a new heaven and the new earth, because if this is it, we got a raw deal. We need a hope of a heavenly city where all tears are wiped away, and there is not hurt. I believe it exists, but it certainly isn't what we see in the natural. Many futurists probably see us with a fulfilled eschology view as those with either rose-colored glasses or ostriches with our heads in the sand. I certainly understand this when the popular view of a new heaven and new earth resembles that on the Jehovah Witnessess magazines with the family feasting in front of a snow-capped mountain. I suppose I had a paradigm shift as to what I see a new heaven and a new earth as.

I agree with Zeek when He says that the fulfillment of those things that happened in the first centery is a picture of those things that happen internally/spiritually. I also believe that the kingdom of God is like a musturd seed. It starts small, but eventually is the largest tree of all. This is not only on an individual level, but someday I believe on a global scale. Everyone says how evil things have gotten spiraling down into the apocalype, but history isn't holding up a shining flame to aspire to. I wouldn't say evil has gotton worse, it has just remained evil. I am just praying that this 'musturd tree' continues to grow.

Love, Sarah

[rosered]

in  light of the new rules and  moderating , I will comply  :bigGrin:
have a good evening

[rosered]

  I also believe along the same lines of Zeek
  we tend to get way to literal in   our interpretations :mblush:
and completely miss out on the very things God has given us to SEE ! 


to be in the Spirit and Truth is the only way we can see anything from the  Book of Life my friend
  ps I am not mad at you at all lol bro 
just a little   ferverent  when it comes to  speaking in Love  :winkgrin: