The Revealing of Jesus Christ

[Craig]

Is this thread supposed to be some kind of street theatre of *satan at work* ?

It was my point to show where spirits come from and how they work, that is caused by the choices and deeds of an individual or group. Since people still don't understand what Satan is, and what spirits are and where they come from, this was a good example, though not necessarily intended. :)

[willieH]

willieH: :hithere:

Sorry to all for this sidetracking...

As far as an "elder" is concerned, get over it!  Thank GOD it is not up to YOU whether I am such a thing or not... GOD chooses who IS and who is NOT,
peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

You finally admit it, been waiting 4 years for you to realize that. Good.

Talk about READING things into a statement!  :thumbdown:

I didn't ADMIT anything! ...I stated a FACT... which is that neither YOU nor I decide what IS or IS NOT a position (elder) in the WORK of GOD...

GOD is LOVE Craig...  :HeartThrob:

THAT which positions one (as an "elder") within the WORK of GOD, ...is GOD Himself... which is LOVE...

When (and certainly ...IF...) one gravitates to LOVE first and foremost...  Then one is found humbling oneself to be used BY LOVE... in the WORK of LOVE...

Might I carefully note for us all to consider in that aspiration...

Arrogance is never used in the work of LOVE... humility IS...  :dontknow:

Think about it...  :JCThink:

Now if I might also so humbly SUGGEST, ...let's get back to the TOPIC brother...

[Taffy]

Sorry Guys..got me MOD hat On.

Now if I might also so humbly SUGGEST, ...let's get back to the TOPIC brother...

so PLEASE....LETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:icon_flower: :icon_flower:

[Molly]

Did angels fall?



18 "Yes," he told them, "I saw Satan falling from heaven as a flash of lightning!

--Luke 10


12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O shining star, son of the morning! You have been thrown down to the earth, you who destroyed the nations of the world.

13 For you said to yourself, `I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God's stars. I will preside on the mountain of the gods far away in the north.

14 I will climb to the highest heavens and be like the Most High.'

15 But instead, you will be brought down to the place of the dead, down to its lowest depths.

--Isa 14



Oops...is this the place of the dead?

[martincisneros]

I think that some people around here are looking for a direct statement of the Scriptures that Satan was a fallen angel.  My only retort at this point is "are absolutely all of our beliefs from the Scriptures based upon direct statements of the Scriptures or have pretty much all of us got beliefs from the Scriptures that were more of a matter of putting two and two together over the course of enough Scriptures and enough time with the Scriptures to get their general sense about certain things?" 

Secondly, if we limit all of our beliefs to direct statements from the Scriptures, are there any levels of what we know that the Scriptures have genuinely taught us that we'd have to likewise set aside if nothing else but a direct statement from the Scriptures would do? 

How much from each of our spirits and our minds would we have to uproot that has come to us from the Scriptures on the sole basis that we don't have a direct statement from a Book that in many ways is deliberately enigmatic? 

Are direct statements from the Scriptures the only way to gauge the truth of something we genuinely believe that we've perceived from the Scriptures? 

Or are sincerely Scripturally derived beliefs to be set aside if they don't pass the acid test of being able to successfully convince someone else that such and such is contained in the Scriptures?

[WhiteWings]

Did angels fall?



18 "Yes," he told them, "I saw Satan falling from heaven as a flash of lightning!

--Luke 10


12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O shining star, son of the morning! You have been thrown down to the earth, you who destroyed the nations of the world.

13 For you said to yourself, `I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God's stars. I will preside on the mountain of the gods far away in the north.

14 I will climb to the highest heavens and be like the Most High.'

15 But instead, you will be brought down to the place of the dead, down to its lowest depths.

--Isa 14



Oops...is this the place of the dead?

Molly isn't the above about Satan?
I thought it was about the death of the king of Babylon....

How you are fallen from heaven, O shining star, son of the morning! You have been thrown down to the earth, you who destroyed the nations of the world.

That would mean satan fell long after creation/eden because he destroyed (past tense) several nations.
The first nation was formed long after Eden.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Molly... :hithere:

Did angels fall?

18 "Yes," he told them, "I saw Satan falling from heaven as a flash of lightning!

--Luke 10

NO they did NOT!  But you shall believe what you will...  :dontknow:

CHRIST only spoke IN PARABLE... which means that this is NOT a literal statement, but has SPIRITUAL meaning... and ATHIEST can deduce the above as LITERAL and conclude that "satan" fell from the PERFECT HEAVEN of GOD...

The HEAVEN that "satan" fell from is NOT the HEAVEN of YHVH God which is ETERNALLY, UNDEFILED and PERFECT... such a falling would constitute that Heaven to NOT be PERFECT and UNDEFILED... believe what you will...

12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O [lucifer] shining star, son of the morning! You have been thrown down to the earth, you who destroyed the nations of the world.

13 For you said to yourself, `I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God's stars. I will preside on the mountain of the gods far away in the north.

14 I will climb to the highest heavens and be like the Most High.'

15 But instead, you will be brought down to the place of the dead, down to its lowest depths.

--Isa 14

Why'd you leave out "lucifer" Molly?  After all, it is the ONLY appearance of this word in the Scriptures, and you left it out?

This Scripture speaks of a MAN being addressed which is STATED in the NEXT VERSE:

16  they that SEE thee [spirits are unseen] shall narrowly LOOK UPON THEE [again spirits are unseen]  and consider thee, saying:  is this not the MAN [#H376 LYSH - male person/man] that made the earth to tremble that did shake kingdoms.

and IN THIS CONTEXT, is further noted as a MAN with a CARCASE in a GRAVE

19  but thou are cast out of thy GRAVE [sheol-grave of men] like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a SWORD [spirits cannot be "thrust through with swords" #H2719 CHEREB - cutting instrument - knife] that go DOWN to the stones of the PIT [hole]; as a CARCASE [dead body] under feet.

Oops... is this the place of the dead?

C'mon Molly... unnecessary remarks...

If this is the place of the DEAD, ... what are YOU doing here?...  (and no doubt, you will continue to be here, if I know you)...

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[martincisneros]

That would mean satan fell long after creation/eden because he destroyed (past tense) several nations.
The first nation was formed long after Eden.

This gets over into the tricky subjects related to what some believe about a Pre-Adamic race of people.  He hath not put the coming world into subjection to angels whereof we speak in the book of Hebrews is taken by some to indicate that perhaps a Pre-Adamic race of people were governed by angels.  A lot of people build a whole lot on the statements in Genesis to Adam about re-plenishing the earth, as though it were being reclaimed from some great catastrophe.  For people who believe along these lines, this reconciles for them the apparent long age of the earth with their view of humanity being less than 10,000 years old.  And it gives them a convenient out for the Pyramids, cave paintings, and other man made objects that date closer to 15,000+ years old.  Some of the dating on the Pyramids has been pulled back in the last couple of years to being thought to be just under 10,000 years, but the issue of impossibly big stones that went into their construction is still problematic for many scholars.

For other people, this gets into the tricky subject of past or future tenses on some of the Hebrew language with stricter translations like Young's, Rotherham's, and a few others conflicting on some of these passages as to whether we're talking past or future tense within the text.  It's either an interpretation issue or an issue with the particular Hebrew manuscripts appealed to, or maybe a little of both.  I don't know if that particularly comes up with this particular passage, but I have seen these kinds of conflicts between translations before.

Other people would put a gap in the timing between the falling of this son of the morning, whomever it may be in this passage, and would link the attempted overthrow of God to the events of the book of Revelation and their interpretation of Armageddon, or earlier with the defilement of the Jewish temple in Daniel 9 and 2Thessalonians 2.  So for them, the fall and the destruction of nations wouldn't overlap, but the fall would have been over something else entirely and much earlier, then later the destruction of nations, and then the passage that some take as the mockery of this one who has destroyed the nations when he's viewed in the true light of how small he's been made by God.

[WhiteWings]

Why'd you leave out "lucifer" Molly?  After all, it is the ONLY appearance of this word in the Scriptures, and you left it out?

Willie  :bottlebump:

Lucifer is only in half of the translations I've seen.
All others exept one translate it as morning/day star, son of the morning.
Good New Bible translates it as King of Babylon.

BTW I think Lucifer can't be a correct translation because it's Latin
lucis-ferre => light-bringer

[WhiteWings]

That would mean satan fell long after creation/eden because he destroyed (past tense) several nations.
The first nation was formed long after Eden.

This gets over into the tricky subjects related to what some believe about a Pre-Adamic race of people.  He hath not put the coming world into subjection to angels whereof we speak in the book of Hebrews is taken by some to indicate that perhaps a Pre-Adamic race of people were governed by angels. 

You are referring to the gap theory?

A lot of people build a whole lot on the statements in Genesis to Adam about re-plenishing the earth, as though it were being reclaimed from some great catastrophe.

Yeah, I've read quite a lot about that. Some scholars claim it is "In a beginning"
And the words creating/void was better translated as repairing damage.
According to some "re-plenshing" meant filling and not refilling at the time KJB was written. I can't verify that myself.

For people who believe along these lines, this reconciles for them the apparent long age of the earth with their view of humanity being less than 10,000 years old.  And it gives them a convenient out for the Pyramids, cave paintings, and other man made objects that date closer to 15,000+ years old.  Some of the dating on the Pyramids has been pulled back in the last couple of years to being thought to be just under 10,000 years, but the issue of impossibly big stones that went into their construction is still problematic for many scholars.

Sorry Willie! but I have to ask now Martin mentioned it...
What do you thing about the theory that there where humanoids before Adam but the Bible calls them animals because they didn't have the special 'spirit of humanity'?

[Paul Hazelwood]

I think that some people around here are looking for a direct statement of the Scriptures that Satan was a fallen angel. 

Actually it is those more direct scriptures that people are maintaining is the proof he was a fallen angel.   It is the value of scripture that means more than the literal text that brings question to that literal reading.

[Molly]

'mon Molly... unnecessary remarks...

If this is the place of the DEAD, ... what are YOU doing here?...  (and no doubt, you will continue to be here, if I know you)...

I meant is this earth the place of the dead?

Satan was cast down to earth.  And, that scripture said he was brought down to the place of the dead.

One plus one...

Actually, if this earth is the place of the dead, it would explain a lot...

[Taffy]

I meant is this earth the place of the dead?

YUP!

Satan was cast down to earth.  And, that scripture said he was brought down to the place of the dead.

YUP!

Actually, if this earth is the place of the dead, it would explain a lot...

and YuP once MORE,....That is, if one relates the EARTH to being Clay= man etc...personified in the Pharisees Noted as those ""so called BEING alive"" speaking from the GRAVE"...

Therefore ,MAN needs a NEW earth ( BODY) and a NEW ( HEAVEN) mind to live..as scripture NOTES""moving from DEATH to life....

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.



:icon_flower:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi WW...  :cloud9:

Why'd you leave out "lucifer" Molly?  After all, it is the ONLY appearance of this word in the Scriptures, and you left it out?

Willie  :bottlebump:

Lucifer is only in half of the translations I've seen.
All others exept one translate it as morning/day star, son of the morning.
Good New Bible translates it as King of Babylon.

BTW I think Lucifer can't be a correct translation because it's Latin
lucis-ferre => light-bringer

I was just noting this to Molly, because it is used a "proof Scripture" by those which endeavor to establish that ANGELS of GOD... fell from Heaven...

The word translated LUCIFER ...IS... in the Bible bro... regardless of the translation of it... HEYLEL (#H1966 strongs)...

And the definition of HEYLEL is rooted in a word which means shine... but irregardless,  ...The point is that the context of Is 14 does not establish "satan" as a fallen ANGEL of GOD... for "satan" is not even mentioned and, what ever HEYLEL actually means, in the CONTEXT... it is used in pointing toward a MAN which was a King, at the time of this writing...

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[Molly]

16  they that SEE thee [spirits are unseen] shall narrowly LOOK UPON THEE [again spirits are unseen]  and consider thee, saying:  is this not the MAN [#H376 LYSH - male person/man] that made the earth to tremble that did shake kingdoms.

and IN THIS CONTEXT, is further noted as a MAN with a CARCASE in a GRAVE

The word is iysh which could mean 'one,' 'champion,' fellow,' 'another.'


"man"
H376
אישׁ
'îysh
eesh
Contracted for H582 (or perhaps rather from an unused root meaning to be extant); a man as an individual or a male person; often used as an adjunct to a more definite term (and in such cases frequently not expressed in translation.) : - also, another, any (man), a certain, + champion, consent, each, every (one), fellow, [foot-, husband-] man, (good-, great, mighty) man, he, high (degree), him (that is), husband, man [-kind], + none, one, people, person, + steward, what (man) soever, whoso (-ever), worthy. Compare H802.


16They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

--Isa 14

Is this the fellow?

Is this the one?

Is this another one?

..who shook the nations, made the earth to tremble, made the world a wilderness, imprisoned people forever,  and destroyed cities.



Aren't we getting sick of Satan, yet?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Molly...  :icon_flower:

'mon Molly... unnecessary remarks...

If this is the place of the DEAD, ... what are YOU doing here?...  (and no doubt, you will continue to be here, if I know you)...

I meant is this earth the place of the dead?

Thanks for clarifying...  :thanks:

Satan was cast down to earth.  And, that scripture said he was brought down to the place of the dead.

One plus one...

Actually, if this earth is the place of the dead, it would explain a lot...

The "earth" IS the "place" of the dead... it is the CLAY VESSEL first molded in DISHONOR... FITTED (made) for DESTRUCTION... 

GOD ...MAKES... men to be in this scenario... He has CONCLUDED [decided] that we ALL travel through the valley of DEATH due to UNBELIEF which is NOT decided by us... This takes "place" in the FLESH... which is ADVERSE to the SPIRIT... which is eventually REVEALED to be in ALL -- CHRIST, the beginning and the end...

"satan" is IN the EARTH (not the planet)... which IS the CLAY VESSEL which is MADE PURPOSELY, unto DISHONOR and DESTRUCTION...

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[Molly]

well, I was thinking..

As long as man allows satan to take over his mental faculties and turn him functionally insane,

God is required to condemn man to death, such that this world isn't more of a living Hell than it already is.

[Taffy]

well, I was thinking..

As long as man allows satan to take over his mental faculties and turn him functionally insane,

God is required to condemn man to death, such that this world isn't more of a living Hell than it already is.

Ya see Molly, Man WAS made subject to"" vanity"...The Flesh, Now being adverse to KNOWING WHO or what TRUTH IS, and that Dear ONE, is LIFE ITSELF, ( Christ)...

Insanaity is relative to the WORD SANE.....For mine ,while we DWELL, and live in the""""""""""""""" wisdom"of the Flesh """which has been noted very clearly by Rosered, then Indeed we remain insane,....for the sense of a Better word.

Me sincerely thinks you miss the WHOLE POINT molly.......bUT IM SURE YA MAY WELL THINK THAT OF ME :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

[Molly]

well, I was thinking..

As long as man allows satan to take over his mental faculties and turn him functionally insane,

God is required to condemn man to death, such that this world isn't more of a living Hell than it already is.

Ya see Molly, Man WAS made subject to"" vanity"...The Flesh, Now being adverse to KNOWING WHO or what TRUTH IS, and that Dear ONE, is LIFE ITSELF, ( Christ)...

Insanaity is relative to the WORD SANE.....For mine ,while we DWELL, and live in the""""""""""""""" wisdom"of the Flesh """which has been noted very clearly by Rosered, then Indeed we remain insane,....for the sense of a Better word.

Me sincerely thinks you miss the WHOLE POINT molly.......bUT IM SURE YA MAY WELL THINK THAT OF ME :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

I don't necessarily disagree with you, except in that I see how it can be used as an excuse--the woman, flesh, you gave me made me do it.

God makes it clear he has given us a choice--therefore, we have a choice, life or death.

He has commanded us to choose life.

What is so hard about that?

Personally, satan and his fallen angels have gotten on my last nerve.

[willieH]

willieH:  :heat:

16  they that SEE thee [spirits are unseen] shall narrowly LOOK UPON THEE [again spirits are unseen]  and consider thee, saying:  is this not the MAN [#H376 LYSH - male person/man] that made the earth to tremble that did shake kingdoms.

and IN THIS CONTEXT, is further noted as a MAN with a CARCASE in a GRAVE

The word is iysh which could mean 'one,' 'champion,' fellow,' 'another.'


"man"
H376
אישׁ
'îysh
eesh
Contracted for H582 (or perhaps rather from an unused root meaning to be extant); a man as an individual or a male person; often used as an adjunct to a more definite term (and in such cases frequently not expressed in translation.) : - also, another, any (man), a certain, + champion, consent, each, every (one), fellow, [foot-, husband-] man, (good-, great, mighty) man, he, high (degree), him (that is), husband, man [-kind], + none, one, people, person, + steward, what (man) soever, whoso (-ever), worthy. Compare H802.


16They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

--Isa 14

Is this the fellow?  willieH: "satan" is a FELLOW?

Is this the one?

Is this another one?

..who shook the nations, made the earth to tremble, made the world a wilderness, imprisoned people forever,  and destroyed cities.

Aren't we getting sick of Satan, yet?

IYSH is translated CHAMPION - 2 times...

IYSH is translated ANOTHER -  5 times...

IYSH is translated ONE - Many times, too many to count as with:

IYSH is translated MAN... SEVERAL HUNDRED times... (I got tired of counting a 200 with pages left)

Which give us a good idea what the word actually meant... It generally was observed as meaning ONE or MAN... and was applied in MYRIADS of instances in the OT... As ONE or MAN... few times as the other noted definitions...

Another thing you miss is the earlier context of Is 14 which names this person the KING of BABYLON... which is to end up in a GRAVE... and WORMS cover him...

Is "satan" in a GRAVE Molly?   Is satan "covered" by WORMS? (Is 14:11)  :dontknow:

Where is "satan" referred to elsewhere, as a KING Molly?  Is "he" one of the "kings" that JESUS is KING of?

Let's face it Molly... you will believe "satan" as a "person" addressed in the Bible as "LUCIFER"... and as "the SERPENT"... and as "the DRAGON"... as "BEELZEBUB"... whatever, ...and far be it from me to wish to change that... G-head!  Believe it...  :dontknow:

But truth be told, that CHRIST ...NAMED (by HIS own  WORDS) as "satan"... only PETER... whom He also named as the (little) ROCK upon which He would build His church... :rolleye:

And when CHRIST called someone a given thing... are we not to accept that as basis enough to note it as SO?  When He called the Pharisees BLIND GUIDES... are they NOT what He CALLED them?  Or when He CALLED them VIPERS... was He just kidding?

So knowing that He addressed PETER as "satan"... are you not going to accept His Word? 

Does it mean the CHRIST is building his church upon "satan" Molly?

We are just...  :bdh:  ...I'll leave you to believe in "satan" however you choose, but as far as I am concerned it is a belief in a myth...  Just as is the belief of those who believe and preach that GOD shall eternally burn the objects of HIS LOVE...  :sigh:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[Molly]

Let's face it Molly... you will believe "satan" as a "person" addressed in the Bible as "LUCIFER"... and as "the SERPENT"... and as "the DRAGON"... as "BEELZEBUB"... whatever, ...and far be it from me to wish to change that... G-head!  Believe it... 

But truth be told, that CHRIST ...NAMED (by HIS own  WORDS) as "satan"... only PETER... whom He also named as the (little) ROCK upon which He would build His church...

Satan is a spirit that can enter into anything, even an angel of light.

But, man has a way to protect himself.

Or man could not choose life, because satan is all about death and destruction.

Who in their right mind would love death and destruction?

[WhiteWings]

The word translated LUCIFER ...IS... in the Bible bro... regardless of the translation of it... HEYLEL (#H1966 strongs)...

You are missing my point Willie. And I never claimed that strong isn't in the Bible

[pneuma]

well, I was thinking..

As long as man allows satan to take over his mental faculties and turn him functionally insane,

God is required to condemn man to death, such that this world isn't more of a living Hell than it already is.

Ya see Molly, Man WAS made subject to"" vanity"...The Flesh, Now being adverse to KNOWING WHO or what TRUTH IS, and that Dear ONE, is LIFE ITSELF, ( Christ)...

Insanaity is relative to the WORD SANE.....For mine ,while we DWELL, and live in the""""""""""""""" wisdom"of the Flesh """which has been noted very clearly by Rosered, then Indeed we remain insane,....for the sense of a Better word.

Me sincerely thinks you miss the WHOLE POINT molly.......bUT IM SURE YA MAY WELL THINK THAT OF ME :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

I don't necessarily disagree with you, except in that I see how it can be used as an excuse--the woman, flesh, you gave me made me do it.
God makes it clear he has given us a choice--therefore, we have a choice, life or death.

He has commanded us to choose life.

What is so hard about that?

Personally, satan and his fallen angels have gotten on my last nerve.

Hi Molly I maybe the only one who picked up on this but you brought forth a very good point when you said that man would blame his FLESH (for she is flesh of my flesh)  for all of his folly, and this is exactly what I see happening on this thread.

Some only see the flesh as responsible and lay all the blame at its feet, but mans FLESH says hey wait a minute it not my fault that old serpent called the devil and satan decieived me.

It would seem to me that some like Adam have never come into contact with the serpent so they can only blame the flesh, while all along the flesh is being decieved by serpent.

Why is this so important to understand?

Because when you go to war you better have a very good understanding of all the enemies you will face, if all you battle is those who have been decieved you will never get close to defeating the one who decieves.

[Craig]

It just baffles me how people put up with this "them versus us reasoning", which is just chalk full of fallacy and based on nothing factual, logical, reasonable or anything. Ad Hominem reasoning is all bs and a lowest form of reasoning there is.

Hi Molly I maybe the only one who picked up on this but you brought forth a very good point when you said that man would blame his FLESH (for she is flesh of my flesh)  for all of his folly, and this is exactly what I see happening on this thread.

Then you are NOT paying attention to ANYTHING in this thread Scott, once again, assuming things and never listening. Both Molly and yourself continue to assign your ASSUMPTIONS of what you think is being discussed as being the reality of which is discussed, and as I said before it is disrespectful to everyone in this thread. Continually you will be refuted until you actually take the time to UNDERSTAND and LISTEN to what you think you are refuting. Otherwise it is all hot air, and your vain imaginations.

Because when you go to war you better have a very good understanding of all the enemies you will face, if all you battle is those who have been decieved you will never get close to defeating the one who deceives.

How IRONIC, because it is in fact what YOU are doing. You think your enemy is external to you, you in fact are blaming a outside created spirit, even God, that you had no choice or control over, to YOUR folly. You believe Satan is something external to man and deny your involvement in his continual existence.

Therefore you have never blamed yourself for your sin and evil you commit, you deny your responsibility and accountability to your words, thoughts and actions believing that if evil is birthed, it is EXTERNAL to you and not actually created within you by you. At least those who recognize that the flesh, understand that it is actually themselves, a part of themselves that that they are battling and actually taking responsibility for their thoughts and actions.

HOW IRONIC you are defeated by your own words. You just rebuke everyone who doesn't believe Satan is a spirit outside mankind by alluding that they blame something 'external' to themselves, but cannot recognize that is what you are doing if you believe Satan is outside mankind. Talk about not knowing your enemy.

[pneuma]

It just baffles me how people put up with this "them versus us reasoning", which is just chalk full of fallacy and based on nothing factual, logical, reasonable or anything. Ad Hominem reasoning is all bs and a lowest form of reasoning there is.

Craig there is no us verses them scenario, that just goes to show where your head is at. it obvious to all reading that some believe the flesh is satan and some believe satan is satan, and there is nothing wrong in pointing this out.

Then you are NOT paying attention to ANYTHING in this thread Scott, once again, assuming things and never listening. Both Molly and yourself continue to assign your ASSUMPTIONS of what you think is being discussed as being the reality of which is discussed, and as I said before it is disrespectful to everyone in this thread. Continually you will be refuted until you actually take the time to UNDERSTAND and LISTEN to what you think you are refuting. Otherwise it is all hot air, and your vain imaginations.

Whatever, but as you seem to think I am being disrespectful to others (no one else has said anything, I think it just your dislike for me showing up again) but just in case I'll ask them.

So speak up guys and gals, do you see me as being disrespectful as Craig point out?

If so please let me know and I will leave this thread alone. I am not here to hurt anyone, just to discuss what I see along with everyone else.

How IRONIC, because it is in fact what YOU are doing. You think your enemy is external to you, you in fact are blaming a outside created spirit, even God, that you had no choice or control over, to YOUR folly. You believe Satan is something external to man and deny your involvement in his continual existence.

Craig again and again you accuse me of not listening, but brother that is your problem not mine, how many time have I stated in this thread that I believe in layers to scripture and see satan as also concerning our flesh, but also see satan as a spirit being?

Go ahead count them, for obviously by this post you have not read my replies but just skimmed through them as you are want to do when reading anything I post, not taking the time to really look at what I have said, still going by your old standard of I don't have to read everything you write in order to understand you are wrong.

Therefore you have never blamed yourself for your sin and evil you commit, you deny your responsibility and accountability to your words, thoughts and actions believing that if evil is birthed, it is EXTERNAL to you and not actually created within you by you. At least those who recognize that the flesh, understand that it is actually themselves, a part of themselves that that they are battling and actually taking responsibility for their thoughts and actions.

HOW IRONIC you are defeated by your own words. You just rebuke everyone who doesn't believe Satan is a spirit outside mankind by alluding that they blame something 'external' to themselves, but cannot recognize that is what you are doing if you believe Satan is outside mankind.

You really do not LISTEN or READ what I write do you, and how you get me REBUKING anyone out of anything I said just goes to show where your head is at Craig.
Grow up.