The Revealing of Jesus Christ

[Paul Hazelwood]

The problem is that the story depicts this falling as a free will choice to become imperfect as we view perfection.  I do not believe there is a very solid scriptural picture of that.

It's more a rebellion against God which results in a fall.

What is the root cause of the rebellion then?

Perversion.  Pride.  Wickedness.  Desire for power.  Which spirits man can easily succumb to because it all sounds good at first.


12For we are not wrestling with flesh and blood [contending only with physical opponents], but against the despotisms, against the powers, against [the master spirits who are] the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spirit forces of wickedness in the heavenly (supernatural) sphere.

--Eph 6

And where does that come from in an environment that is supposed to be perfect and holy?

[Molly]

The problem is that the story depicts this falling as a free will choice to become imperfect as we view perfection.  I do not believe there is a very solid scriptural picture of that.

It's more a rebellion against God which results in a fall.

What is the root cause of the rebellion then?

Perversion.  Pride.  Wickedness.  Desire for power.  Which spirits man can easily succumb to because it all sounds good at first.


12For we are not wrestling with flesh and blood [contending only with physical opponents], but against the despotisms, against the powers, against [the master spirits who are] the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spirit forces of wickedness in the heavenly (supernatural) sphere.

--Eph 6

And where does that come from in an environment that is supposed to be perfect and holy?

God allows it up to a point, as he did with the Israelites in the wilderness, and then he allows it no more.

God didn't create a bunch of automatons.  But an angel's job is to obey the one in charge. An angel is a servant.   A man's job is to learn to obey through humility.  A man is to become a son.

We are to learn to obey out of love and respect for God's wisdom, not because our fingers will be broken if we don't.

[pneuma]

Thats what the story that is being depicted implies. It is in reference to a singular heaven, the same heaven that is said we go to where there is no sadness, etc etc. So if it is this "heaven" we are to be at when God is all in all, then the story implies this same place is where it all started.

Ok, but just so your aware that not were I am coming from, I already stated I believe the angelic inhabited the earth before man.

Well here is the structure of the greek.

"to the" "for" "Vanity" "the creation" "was under set" "not" "voluntarily" "but" "thru" "the" "one under setting" "on" "expectation"


I can't see it any other way.

Ya I looked it up in a couple of translation Paul and they all seem to agree that the not willingly is in reference to the creation, but something does not sit right with me, but maybe it has to do with what vanity means, if it just means God made man mortal I have no problem with the original understanding, but if it means God made man sin  (and I have seen more then a few that use it this way) , then I am against that notion.

Yes God made man with the capacity to sin, but He did not make man sin.

So I guess it really comes down to what it means for God to subject the creation to vanity.  

[Molly]

So I guess it really comes down to what it means for God to subject the creation to vanity.

Satan is god of this aeon.

It's not going to last forever for him.

Satan is a destroyer, a killer, a murderer, a liar.

We are given a choice every hour of every day whom we will serve.

God has allowed this--in hope--He is the God of hope--

21That nature (creation) itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and corruption [and gain an entrance] into the glorious freedom of God's children.

--Romans 8


We are to be participants with God in his creation, as Adam was in the naming of animals and the dressing and keeping of God's garden.

[Paul Hazelwood]

The problem is that the story depicts this falling as a free will choice to become imperfect as we view perfection.  I do not believe there is a very solid scriptural picture of that.

It's more a rebellion against God which results in a fall.

What is the root cause of the rebellion then?

Perversion.  Pride.  Wickedness.  Desire for power.  Which spirits man can easily succumb to because it all sounds good at first.


12For we are not wrestling with flesh and blood [contending only with physical opponents], but against the despotisms, against the powers, against [the master spirits who are] the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spirit forces of wickedness in the heavenly (supernatural) sphere.

--Eph 6

And where does that come from in an environment that is supposed to be perfect and holy?

God allows it up to a point, as he did with the Israelites in the wilderness, and then he allows it no more.

God didn't create a bunch of automatons.  But an angel's job is to obey the one in charge. An angel is a servant.   A man's job is to learn to obey through humility.  A man is to become a son.

We are to learn to obey out of love and respect for God's wisdom, not because our fingers will be broken if we don't.

The story depicts this "place" and this place is the same place where we hope to be...  "according to the story".  Within this great place we want to be was the possibility for a being to become corrupted.  Of course that caused the expulsion of the corrupted beings.


What I am saying is that for perversion to take root, it had to exist in that perfect realm to begin with, and that is the contradiction.


If it started perfect and was corrupted, then there is no assurances that it will get back to perfection and stay that way, none whatsoever.   


This story offers no hope and there is no case for it. 

[Molly]

well, how do you explain these scriptures then?


7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

--Rev 12



Luke 10:18
And [Jesus] said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

[Paul Hazelwood]

well, how do you explain these scriptures then?


7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

--Rev 12



Luke 10:18
And [Jesus] said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Which heaven?   

[Molly]

well, how do you explain these scriptures then?


7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

--Rev 12



Luke 10:18
And [Jesus] said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Which heaven?   

You tell me--but he falls like lightning from heaven--meaning to earth.

[Paul Hazelwood]

well, how do you explain these scriptures then?


7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

--Rev 12



Luke 10:18
And [Jesus] said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Which heaven?   

You tell me--but he falls like lightning from heaven--meaning to earth.

You believe those verses support the story you believe. I do not believe the fall is from a state of perfection with God, you do.

Which heaven?

[Molly]

You believe those verses support the story you believe. I do not believe the fall is from a state of perfection with God, you do.

Which heaven?

I never said anything about 'a state of perfection with God.'  You are the one who said that.

Which heaven?  You tell me.  What is your reading of these scriptures?

[WhiteWings]

Yes God made man with the capacity to sin, but He did not make man sin.

Phew, this is hard to explain/answer for me.
In short God did create sin.
Explanation:
God created everything. That includes the corrupt human brain.
God is very well knew, even before creation, that mankind would sin.
God is also very capable creating sinless humans or other things.
Somehow He made the choice to made us as we are.
Doesn't that imply He created sin.

This little story explains what I mean:

The Scorpion and the Otter

One day a scorpion was on the bank of the River Jordan, wanting to get across to the other side. But of course scorpions can't swim. Luckily it spotted an otter that was about to swim across the river.
'Please, otter,' said the scorpion, 'I need to get across the river, but I can't swim - let me ride on your back.'
'What sort of a fool do you take me for?' said the otter. 'If I let you near me you'll sting me to death.'
'Of course I won't,' said the scorpion. 'I'm trying to get across the river. What possible good would it do me to sting you? I'd drown!'
The otter thought it over, and could see the logic of the scorpion's argument. So he let the scorpion jump onto his back, and set off swimming across the Jordan. But half-way across the river, where the river was at its deepest, the otter felt the scorpion's sting stab deep into his flesh. As both animals began to drown, the otter cried out: 'Why did you sting me--now we'll both drown!'
The scorpion replied: 'Don't blame me--you knew I was a scorpion when you took me on your back - I'm just following my nature. Stinging is what I do.'

Moral: The otter represents logic and reason. The scorpion, madness and unreason. Notice that the scorpion was not averse to using logic when it suited his purpose? 'What possible good would it do me to sting you? I'd drown!'

Notice also that the otter--being a creature of logic and reason, failed to see the mindlessness and madness that lurked behind the logic of the scorpion's argument? And so he died.

Isaiah 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.
Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.

I hope I didn't quote out of context but those verses clearly state God created evil/sin.

[Paul Hazelwood]

You believe those verses support the story you believe. I do not believe the fall is from a state of perfection with God, you do.

Which heaven?

I never said anything about 'a state of perfection with God.'  You are the one who said that.

Which heaven?  You tell me.  What is your reading of these scriptures?

It is the garden of eden.

[Taffy]

You believe those verses support the story you believe. I do not believe the fall is from a state of perfection with God, you do.

Which heaven?

For mine,..Heaven ,is related to the High PLACE, that being the MIND...

Stan, the POWER AND  WISDOM of this WORLD, becomes NO more , relates pretty much to me about the Glory which once WAS, but IS NO MORE....



Psa 36:12 There are the workers of iniquity fallen: they are cast down, and shall not be able to rise.

Did you ever Notice, darkness comes before LIGHT, in the same MANNER THE NIGHT comes before ""DAY""", NO DIFFERENT TO ""first the NATURAL then the spirtual,or first the OLDC , then the NEW...the Glory which ONCE WAS but is NO MORE,
12For we are not wrestling with flesh and blood [contending only with physical opponents], but against the despotisms, against the powers, against [the master spirits who are] the world rulers of this """present darkness"", against the spirit forces of wickedness in the heavenly (supernatural) sphere..

The Children of DARKNESS are NO MORE than those who dwell in the OLD C, the POWER of which WAS, that which was a WATCH IN THE NIGHT but NOW PAST.

The heavnens of the CARNAL MIND still bound by LAW need SHAKING......

HERES A hint.

Act 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness

once established..

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand

FOR MINE..ITS  the context of what scripture talks OF.....LAW v GRACE AND TRUTH....

Got to agreew with Craig..about angels,..and that which PAUL talks of who are JUDGED, being israel, those of LAW.


Gods wrath lays on those who still dwell in the DARKNESS of the OLD C, THOSE FOR MINE which still see throu a GLASS """""""""""""""""""""" DARKLY"""""""""""""""""""., AND NOT YET face to face.Hbr 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.


Hbr 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape], if we turn away from him that [speaketh] from heaven:


Hbr 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Hbr 12:27 And this [word], Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.


Hbr 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:


Hbr 12:29 For our God [is] a consuming fire.




2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;  


Got to agree much with WILLIE H too... :icon_flower:
anyways ..nough of my Jabber...

back to stan and those angels from Hollywood.. :laughing7:

Blessings
Taffy

 

[Molly]

You believe those verses support the story you believe. I do not believe the fall is from a state of perfection with God, you do.

Which heaven?

I never said anything about 'a state of perfection with God.'  You are the one who said that.

Which heaven?  You tell me.  What is your reading of these scriptures?

It is the garden of eden.

The garden of eden is where satan and his angels fell from heaven?

So, who are his angels in the garden?

And, who is michael and his angels in the garden?  Is that Adam?

Are you referring to Genesis 3?

Then that must happen after the account in Job?

6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

--Job 1


What other scripture supports it as the garden of eden?

[Molly]

For mine,..Heaven ,is related to the High PLACE, that being the MIND...

Are you saying there is no spirit outside of my mind?

That all of this is occurring inside of our minds?  And there is no evil that exists independent of the human mind, and therefore, no good that exists independent of the human mind?

[Craig]

For mine,..Heaven ,is related to the High PLACE, that being the MIND...

Are you saying there is no spirit outside of my mind?

That all of this is occurring inside of our minds?  And there is no evil that exists independent of the human mind, and therefore, no good that exists indepedent of the human mind?

That is such a loaded question. It is irrelevant and has no respect for anything discussed in this thread. Of course good exists independent of the human mind, the One who created everything is all in all.  What is relevant is what spirits are, you still think spirits are living beings and not spirits. It still has come to my attention over and over that you believe spirits are living things with choices and work independent of a mind, whether God or man.

[Molly]

For mine,..Heaven ,is related to the High PLACE, that being the MIND...

Are you saying there is no spirit outside of my mind?

That all of this is occurring inside of our minds?  And there is no evil that exists independent of the human mind, and therefore, no good that exists indepedent of the human mind?

That is such a loaded question. It is irrelevant and has no respect for anything discussed in this thread. Of course good exists independent of the human mind, the One who created everything is all in all.  What is relevant is what spirits are, you still think spirits are living beings and not spirits. It still has come to my attention over and over that you believe spirits are living things with choices and work independent of a mind, whether God or man.

It's not a loaded question. It is a real question.

Yes I believe spirits are real.  I believe celestial angels are real.  I believe satan is real.  I believe God is real.

And, like the Bible says, I believe man is involved in spiritual warfare  which is going on 'out there'.

We can protect our own minds with the armour of God, but that doesn't exempt us from the war.

We are Christ's footsoldiers.  Remember "onward Christian soldiers"?  He's not talking about a literal warfare with guns.



13Therefore put on God's complete armor, that you may be able to resist and stand your ground on the evil day [of danger], and, having done all [the crisis demands], to stand [firmly in your place].

    14Stand therefore [hold your ground], having tightened the belt of truth around your loins and having put on the breastplate of integrity and of moral rectitude and right standing with God,

    15And having shod your feet in preparation [to face the enemy with the firm-footed stability, the promptness, and the readiness produced by the good news] of the Gospel of peace.

    16Lift up over all the [covering] shield of saving faith, upon which you can quench all the flaming missiles of the wicked [one].

    17And take the helmet of salvation and the sword that the Spirit wields, which is the Word of God.

    18Pray at all times (on every occasion, in every season) in the Spirit, with all [manner of] prayer and entreaty. To that end keep alert and watch with strong purpose and perseverance, interceding in behalf of all the saints (God's consecrated people).

--Eph 6

[pneuma]

Phew, this is hard to explain/answer for me.
In short God did create sin.

Not according to scripture bro for sin is of the devil.

Explanation:
God created everything.

Yes but man has corrupted everything God created.

That includes the corrupt human brain.

There is NOTHING wrong with the human brain, the mind only becomes corrupt upon listening to the voice of satan. But if you see satan as being nothing more then the imaginations of mans mind I guess there would be no difference to you.

God is very well knew, even before creation, that mankind would sin.

I agree, but having foreknowledge of an event and being responsible for the event are two different animals.

God is also very capable creating sinless humans or other things.
Somehow He made the choice to made us as we are.
Doesn't that imply He created sin.

It would only imply God created sin if man did not have free will to make a choice.

[Molly]

1And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.

2And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,

3Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:

4Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.

5And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.

6But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

7And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

8For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.

9And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

10And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.

11Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.

12And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.

13And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.

14And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done.

15And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.

16And they that saw it told them how it befell to him that was possessed with the devil, and also concerning the swine.

17And they began to pray him to depart out of their coasts.

18And when he was come into the ship, he that had been possessed with the devil prayed him that he might be with him.

19Howbeit Jesus suffered him not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee.

20And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel.

--Mark 5

[pneuma]

I agree with Taffy and Craig... Satan is a spirit...

Anne no one is questioning whether satan is a spirit or not, we all agree he is a spirit, the debate is whether a spirit is a being or just the carnal mind of man.

If it is just the carnal mind of man then God is also just man imagination for God is a spirit.

Satan greatest deception is that he has gotten man to beleive he does not exist.

[pneuma]

1And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.

2And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,

3Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:

4Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.

5And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.

6But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

7And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

8For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.

9And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

10And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.

11Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.

12And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.

13And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.

14And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done.

15And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.

16And they that saw it told them how it befell to him that was possessed with the devil, and also concerning the swine.

17And they began to pray him to depart out of their coasts.

18And when he was come into the ship, he that had been possessed with the devil prayed him that he might be with him.

19Howbeit Jesus suffered him not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee.

20And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel.

--Mark 5

I agree Molly, how people get Jesus casting the imaginations of man into a herd of swine out of those scriptures is beyond me.

[Molly]

Satan is a spirit...

Satan and his demons are spirits which can enter into living bodies--Judas, men, swine, an angel of light.  They recognize Jesus and know that he is the Son of the Most High God [El Elyon].   Even the demons tremble at his name.

Reality is all about spirit.

We are spirit beings in an earthly vessel.


John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

[rosered]

5And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.


  a dear friend of mine , showed me that this man , in the tombs , was among the dead ,  that being  symbolic
and  cutting himself with stones 
the Law of Moses was written in stone tablets 
and this man was driving himself crazy trying to measure up 
symbolically , that was me 
all those years trying to keep all the LAW  cutting with stones ?   consider it please before you thow it out
' i was wounded  and failing at  one point  or many points   , there was no peace 
I was as a mad man too  , I wanted to die   I was at the wits end 
   the bible is very symbolic   to me  , men as trees 
men as  evil beasts  swine even 
  Ishmael is seen as a wild man /  ass


  Gen 16:12 And he will be a wild 6501 man 120; his hand 3027 [will be] against every man, and every man's hand 3027 against him; and he shall dwell 7931 in the presence 6440 of all his brethren 251. 


Job 11:12 For vain 5014 man 376 would be wise 3823 , though man 120 be born 3205 [like] a wild ass's 6501 colt 5895. 

 

[rosered]

 

   Satan/adversary  is a spirit  , evil in nature and its not seen   as  much as percieved ,  yet  real , known
Just as God is spirit  and truth   and they are not your minds , BUT enter the mind , or Heart [being]   something as simple as a  thought  /desire 
that  comes from  within or without/outside 

  when I see the scriptures say Mighty Wind  , I think of a Strong  Spirit
  gusting  in my thoughts  , just as in  nature I have seen  a strong frontline wind

come and rip trees out of the ground  literally

 

[Taffy]

5And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.


  a dear friend of mine , showed me that this man , in the tombs , was among the dead ,  that being  symbolic
and  cutting himself with stones 
the Law of Moses was written in stone tablets 
and this man was driving himself crazy trying to measure up 
symbolically , that was me 
all those years trying to keep all the LAW  cutting with stones ?   consider it please before you thow it out
' i was wounded  and failing at  one point  or many points   , there was no peace 
I was as a mad man too  , I wanted to die   I was at the wits end 
   the bible is very symbolic   to me  , men as trees 
men as  evil beasts  swine even 
  Ishmael is seen as a wild man /  ass


  Gen 16:12 And he will be a wild 6501 man 120; his hand 3027 [will be] against every man, and every man's hand 3027 against him; and he shall dwell 7931 in the presence 6440 of all his brethren 251. 


Job 11:12 For vain 5014 man 376 would be wise 3823 , though man 120 be born 3205 [like] a wild ass's 6501 colt 5895. 

 

Hi Rosey :thumbsup:
:icon_flower: