The Revealing of Jesus Christ

[Paul Hazelwood]

What stops anything from rebelling against God again?

That's what we are for.

1 Corinthians 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

How will our ability to judge a messenger ( One of Gods or otherwise), prevent that messenger from rebelling against God? 

Thats the key,   how will that prevent it from happening again?   And not  all of mankind  will be that judge,  the elect maybe,  but what about the hope of all mankind that the idea of falling away,  of failing,  is removed once and for all from us?   If heaven, of the sort where holy angels can gather together and conspire against God exists, then we are trading one corrupt life here for another there.   

How is that hope?

Corruption will exist if you are saying some of mankind will be the judge of the angels, because they would have to do something that will require judgement in the first place.

[Molly]

Romans 12:21
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

1 John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.


1 John 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?




25But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

---Rev 2

[pneuma]

Spirits are not living beings

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Pretty sure God is a living being.

If Angels, the very spirit messengers of God, fell from heaven, then none of us, anyone or anything in Creation is ever safe and salvation is a false hope. What stops anything from rebelling against God again?

Well that depends on whether you believe Jesus takes AWAY the SIN of the world.
If you believe He does, just as scriptures state, then rebellion or any other SIN if the future become a moot point.

Angels cannot die, that means they cannot sin because the only way one can die is to sin.

Huh, the wages of sin is DEATH, that would be the second DEATH and all those cast into the second DEATH are ALIVE. It not talking about a physical death bro as before Adam sinned he was already dying a physical death.

Jesus said that a Kingdom divided against itself will not stand.

Do you believe Satan's kingdom stands or is it falling apart before his eyes.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Romans 12:21
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.


1 John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.


1 John 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?




25But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

---Rev 2

If evil is overcome,  what are we to judge.   Judgment is an assement of an action taken, not a prevention.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Well that depends on whether you believe Jesus takes AWAY the SIN of the world.
If you believe He does, just as scriptures state, then rebellion or any other SIN if the future become a moot point.

So where does it state he takes away the sin in heaven?   The issue here is if angels fell,  angels had to sin first.

[Molly]

If evil is overcome,  what are we to judge.   Judgment is an assement of an action taken, not a prevention.

Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.



1 Corinthians 15:25
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

[Paul Hazelwood]

If evil is overcome,  what are we to judge.   Judgment is an assement of an action taken, not a prevention.

Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

How does that prevent another rebellion in heaven?

1 Corinthians 15:25
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Jesus reigns, that does not answer your assertion that "our ability to judge" is prevention of a future rebellion.

What says that once all the enemies are put under Jesus feet and he reigns no more, that another rebellion can't take place since Jesus is no longer reigning.


Can you answer which heaven the angels fell from?

[pneuma]

Well that depends on whether you believe Jesus takes AWAY the SIN of the world.
If you believe He does, just as scriptures state, then rebellion or any other SIN if the future become a moot point.

So where does it state he takes away the sin in heaven?   The issue here is if angels fell,  angels had to sin first.

Paul the world being spoken of here is the cosmos not the earth and don't forget that His blood speaks of something far greater then the blood of bulls and goat and it is by His blood that the HEAVENS are purified.

Now as the HEAVENS needed to be purified by His blood for me it goes without saying that somehow those in the heavens has corrupted themselves.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Well that depends on whether you believe Jesus takes AWAY the SIN of the world.
If you believe He does, just as scriptures state, then rebellion or any other SIN if the future become a moot point.

So where does it state he takes away the sin in heaven?   The issue here is if angels fell,  angels had to sin first.

Paul the world being spoken of here is the cosmos not the earth and don't forget that His blood speaks of something far greater then the blood of bulls and goat and it is by His blood that the HEAVENS are purified.

Now as the HEAVENS needed to be purified by His blood for me it goes without saying that somehow those in the heavens has corrupted themselves.

I'm not against that line of reasoning, but I think the fact that "heavens"  plural is being spoken of that is a missing factor in this discussion.

To just say. angels fell from heaven is not taking the plural nature of that depiction into account.

[pneuma]

Well that depends on whether you believe Jesus takes AWAY the SIN of the world.
If you believe He does, just as scriptures state, then rebellion or any other SIN if the future become a moot point.

So where does it state he takes away the sin in heaven?   The issue here is if angels fell,  angels had to sin first.

Paul the world being spoken of here is the cosmos not the earth and don't forget that His blood speaks of something far greater then the blood of bulls and goat and it is by His blood that the HEAVENS are purified.

Now as the HEAVENS needed to be purified by His blood for me it goes without saying that somehow those in the heavens has corrupted themselves.

I'm not against that line of reasoning, but I think the fact that "heavens"  plural is being spoken of that is a missing factor in this discussion.

To just say. angels fell from heaven is not taking the plural nature of that depiction into account.

I agree Paul, scripture speaks of at least 3 heavens, the Jews beleive 7 heavens (I think, could be wrong)

Just because angels fell from heaven does not mean Gods kingdom was divided because for all we know the second or maybe first heavens was created for thier domain and they like man were to be the rulers of it.

[Molly]

1TRUE, THERE is nothing to be gained by it, but [as I am obliged] to boast, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.

   2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--was caught up to the third heaven.

   3And I know that this man--whether in the body or away from the body I do not know, God knows--

   4Was caught up into paradise, and he heard utterances beyond the power of man to put into words, which man is not permitted to utter.

---2 Cor 12

[Paul Hazelwood]

1TRUE, THERE is nothing to be gained by it, but [as I am obliged] to boast, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.

   2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--was caught up to the third heaven.

   3And I know that this man--whether in the body or away from the body I do not know, God knows--

   4Was caught up into paradise, and he heard utterances beyond the power of man to put into words, which man is not permitted to utter.

---2 Cor 12

And what heaven does scripture state angels fell from?

[Molly]

How does that prevent another rebellion in heaven?

The rod is what the shepherd used to beat off the evil predators of the sheep--the bear and the wolf.

But, first, you have to know the difference between good and evil--which, it turns out, most people don't--so that you can recognize it when you see it, and, before that, you have to be able to even see it is a spiritual battle.



26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

--Rev 2


8Ask of Me, and I will give You the nations as Your inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth as Your possession.

---Psa 2

[Molly]

Well that depends on whether you believe Jesus takes AWAY the SIN of the world.
If you believe He does, just as scriptures state, then rebellion or any other SIN if the future become a moot point.

So where does it state he takes away the sin in heaven?   The issue here is if angels fell,  angels had to sin first.

Thus it was necessary for these earthly copies of the things in heaven to be cleansed by these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves are made clean with better sacrifices than these.

--Heb 9:23

[Paul Hazelwood]

How does that prevent another rebellion in heaven?

The rod is what the shepherd used to beat off the evil predators of the sheep--the bear and the wolf.

So there will still be things that need beating off in heaven?

[Molly]

How does that prevent another rebellion in heaven?

The rod is what the shepherd used to beat off the evil predators of the sheep--the bear and the wolf.

So there will still be things that need beating off in heaven?

You think the battle is done?  Technically it is.  Jesus won.  But he needs us to manifest it.

Look around you--the world is up to its eyeballs in evil and it's getting worse by the day.


19For [even the whole] creation (all nature) waits expectantly and longs earnestly for God's sons to be made known [waits for the revealing, the disclosing of their sonship].



Romans 8:19
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Well that depends on whether you believe Jesus takes AWAY the SIN of the world.
If you believe He does, just as scriptures state, then rebellion or any other SIN if the future become a moot point.

So where does it state he takes away the sin in heaven?   The issue here is if angels fell,  angels had to sin first.

Thus it was necessary for these earthly copies of the things in heaven to be cleansed by these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves are made clean with better sacrifices than these.

--Heb 9:23

says earthly copies.......  OF the things in heaven.

then it says  heavenly things.


I want to point out a difference.

A couple of examples of verses pertaining to a singular heaven

Hb 9:24 For Christ entered not into holy places made by hands, representations of the true, but into *heaven itself, now to be disclosed to the face of *God for our sakes


Mt 6:26  "Look at into the flying creatures of *heaven, that they are not sowing, neither are they reaping, nor are they gathering into barns, and your *heavenly *Father is nourishing them. Are not you' of rathermore |consequence than they?


If angels fell from this "singular" heaven here then there is a contradiction.  Did not a fallen angel reap what it sowed?   Here it states there is no sowing or reaping.


A couple of examples pertaining to plural heavens

Mt 3:2 saying:  "|Repent! for near is the kingdom of the heavens!"

Mk 13:25 and the moon shall not be giving her beams, and the stars shall be falling out of heaven, and the powers in the heavens shall be shaken.
It suggests a created realm apart from  the singular.  


Yep, how we act now pertains to the need for repentance,  so a heaven realm exists right here, but it is not pertaining to being "one" with God.



The suggestion I am making here is  God being all in all is the gathering  of those created in realms outside of God direct presence, his (face),  It was all created as we see it in imperfection to prepare us for being "in" him.

If the 3rd heaven has things in it that cannot be uttered by man, how is it we think an angel fell from any place where we can describe what happened?   That contradicts the whole notion.


Mt 13:47  "Again, like is the kingdom of the heavens to a dragnet cast into the sea, which gathers out of every species,


This talks of heavens, but it is showing the gathering,  we are being gathered here, so we are possibly in a heavenly realm now.

So the picture that we are often told is   God was in heaven and the angels there with him rebelled and he kicked them out.


I believe the scriptural issue is that  God  "created the heavens and the earth"  and it was there that he created us, satan, demons , the  serpent for a specific purpose.

To prepare us to be "ONE" with him.   God is everywhere, and we are never truly separated from God, however, we are not ONE with him in the same way  two people who are next to each other are not one,  but when they get married they are one.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Look around you--the world is up to its eyeballs in evil and it's getting worse by the day.

What I see in this physical earth is irrevalent to the need for such concern in a realm where we can look into the face of God.


Like I said, your suggestion makes the whole thing of running the race and doing good moot, if I have to sacrifice here, so that I can get to heaven only to realize that there is still garbage and crap to contend with,  then,  really,  that is the ultimate in "Who cares what I do now".   


And people call that hope?


Hope for what?

More crap?

[pneuma]

Paul I can see things along this lines also, for we are all well aware of a spiritual realm, which could easily be called a heavenly realm.

When Jesus was baptised the HEAVENS or all realms were OPEN unto Him.

Something to think about at least.

[Molly]

Look around you--the world is up to its eyeballs in evil and it's getting worse by the day.

What I see in this physical earth is irrevalent to the need for such concern in a realm where we can look into the face of God.


Like I said, your suggestion makes the whole thing of running the race and doing good moot, if I have to sacrifice here, so that I can get to heaven only to realize that there is still garbage and crap to contend with,  then,  really,  that is the ultimate in "Who cares what I do now".   


And people call that hope?


Hope for what?

More crap?

I didn't say that, did I?

The battle is here and now--where you are standing.


13And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?

14And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?

15And the captain of the LORD's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

--Josh 5



"host"

H6635
צבאה    צבא
tsâbâ'  tsebâ'âh
tsaw-baw', tseb-aw-aw'
From H6633; a mass of persons (or figurative things), especially regularly organized for war (an army); by implication a campaign, literally or figuratively (specifically hardship, worship): - appointed time, (+) army, (+) battle, company, host, service, soldiers, waiting upon, war (-fare).

[Paul Hazelwood]

I didn't say that, did I?

The battle is here and now--where you are standing.

Ok, so this battle now, determines that angels will not fall again from heaven.   Alright, concerning that the bible speaks of "heavens"  which pretty much is being ignored entirely,  I can entertain this to some degree.

But, which heaven did angels fall from?   Please answer.


Because if there "was" angels who can bask directly into the face of God and they rebelled,  then this whole idea that God needed to do anything to prevent it from happening again creates a paradox.   

If God could not have prevented it in the first place, then there is no hope whatsoever that even Jesus trampling things under his feet will conclusively prevent it from happening again.

There is no assurance of such a thing, if angels fell while basking directly in the face of God.

[Craig]

What stops anything from rebelling against God again?

That's what we are for.

1 Corinthians 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

You don't understand, you have no hope. Jesus said a Kingdom divided against itself shall not stand. If the Kingdom of God was divided, then the God you worship is no God of mine.

[martincisneros]

Because if there "was" angels who can bask directly into the face of God and they rebelled,  then this whole idea that God needed to do anything to prevent it from happening again creates a paradox.   

If God could not have prevented it in the first place, then there is no hope whatsoever that even Jesus trampling things under his feet will conclusively prevent it from happening again.

There is no assurance of such a thing, if angels fell while basking directly in the face of God.

Unless what Jesus did alters and completes the Creation THAT MUCH....Unless it was the one missing revelation that they were needing to stay at peace and obedience to Him.

What stops anything from rebelling against God again?

That's what we are for.

1 Corinthians 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

You don't understand, you have no hope. Jesus said a Kingdom divided against itself shall not stand. If the Kingdom of God was divided, then the God you worship is no God of mine.

It still doesn't prevent God from having Created us as the extensions of His very own nature, through Christ, to balance the Creation and keep everything conciliated.  Salvation involves judgment and revealing.  Aren't we the more free to grow into God in all things knowing that Christ is our net that keeps us from dying in this circus that we call life?  What if there is a direction of growth that God wants the angels to grow in that though not necessarily involving sonship is still something they can't fully participate in without knowing that He'll crush every rebellion and restore what's been crushed; a bruised reed He won't break and smoking flax He won't quench til He sends forth judgment to victory.  We're the bruised reeds without a doubt, but what's the smoking flax?

[Craig]

It still doesn't prevent God from having Created us as the extensions of His very own nature, through Christ, to balance the Creation and keep everything conciliated.  Salvation involves judgment and revealing.  Aren't we the more free to grow into God in all things knowing that Christ is our net that keeps us from dying in this circus that we call life?  What if there is a direction of growth that God wants the angels to grow in that though not necessarily involving sonship is still something they can't fully participate in without knowing that He'll crush every rebellion and restore what's been crushed; a bruised reed He won't break and smoking flax He won't quench til He sends forth judgment to victory.  We're the bruised reeds without a doubt, but what's the smoking flax?

We were not created in the Kingdom of God, but the so-called "Fallen" Angels were. You need better wisdom than what you provided, to support your claim. Otherwise it is a justification of something that has no reasoning only speculation. Jesus was clear when he said a Kingdom divided shall not stand, therefore anything that was of God's Kingdom will not be divided.

[Craig]

That's what we are for.

1 Corinthians 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Those "angels" refers to Israel and the fallen prophets of God who chosen by God were still just human.