The Revealing of Jesus Christ

[pneuma]

To see ones nakedness and not be ashamed

is that not a spiritual state/mindset??



Rom 8:5  For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Your point being?

[laren]

To see ones nakedness and not be ashamed

is that not a spiritual state/mindset??



Rom 8:5  For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Your point being?

We fell from a spiritual state

[The0]

willieH: Hi The0...  :cloud9:

willieH: Hi WW... peace!  :cloud9:

WE on the other hand, ...have ALWAYS BEEN, and were once, residents of HEAVEN (can't "return" to a place you've never been), and which are THEY which having once been in the DOMAIN of GOD (Heaven), are the "Heavenly things" in need of reconciliation... (Col 1:20)

Hi Willie :dsunny:

Just wondering how you reach the conclusion we always have been in Heaven. Some verses perhaps?

There are several proofs of this, but mainly because GOD in His WORD says:

Please provide the rest of the "several proofs of this". If there are other proof texts, but "mainly because...", I think your other missing proof verses must be less convincing than the ones quoted below.

Why should I do this The0?  :dontknow:  You are already unconvinced by what I have presented, and that is fine with me...

I notice that YOU have shown nothing to PROVE otherwise...  :rolleye:

If I posted a thousand verses, it shall not be any more convincing to you, for you are concluded against it... and you will object to them as well... so why waste my time?

As CHRIST noted in Parable,  ...and if they HEAR NOT Moses and the prophets, NEITHER will they be persuaded though one rose from the DEAD...

He is saying that if you have not ears to hear, it doesnt matter what is said to you... you WILL NOT hear it...

I have no problem with your disagreement... you are more than welcome to continue your belief as is (whatever it is?) ...but you WILL discover one day, that what I have posted concerning this is TRUE...  :cloud9:

(1) YHVH never changes (Mal 3:6) ...We are HIS TEMPLE (1 Cor 6:19) in which HE DWELLS... He does not CHANGE, so His DWELLING must remain the same as well... for if He dwells in a TEMPLE which is other than the one MAN represents... then HE indeed has changed...  MEN are created, physical and TIME BOUND and TEMPORAL beings, ...SONS are SPIRIT and have ALWAYS BEEN...

(2)  we are the BODY of CHRIST (Rom 12:5 / 1 Cor 12:12-18 / 1 Cor 12:27)... and Scripture states that CHRIST never changes (Heb 13:8)... so subsequently, His BODY never changes either...

You are 'twisting the arms' of these verses to make them prove your belief.

Says YOU... (in YOUR words only!)   :thumbdown:

I am doing no such thing... YHVH God and His CHRIST are noted as UNCHANGING... I have provided the verses that state this...  If in fact they do not change... then that which they INHABIT (body and temple) does not change... which is the SPIRIT of men... which is the LIFE which animates ALL MEN...  ALL MEN die for they are NATURAL not SPIRITUAL...

That portion of MEN which is a member of the BODY, and TEMPLE of GOD, returns to HIM...

That you have not received this revelation is that which prompts you to object to it... just as those who have not received the revelation of UR, and believe ET... will argue with you till the cow come home...

Hi willieH! thanx for undertaking the monumental task of explaining things to me.  :bigGrin:

By reading this thread, i do not think i fully know what it is that you believe on the topic.

I am not concluded, as you say, against believing what you understand scriptures to mean. I am willing to try to understand your belief, and accept it as gospel truth IF AND ONLY IF you can show to me that it (your belief) is backed by scripture.

The verses you quoted do not show this backing. Let me tell you what I understand from these verses you quoted.

TRUTH: The Lord God is unchangeable
TRUTH: The Son of God is unchangeable
TRUTH: Our bodies are the temple of God

So far so good. The above three truths are backed by scripture, which you quoted. Where scripture ends and your opinion begins is when you state that He [God] does not change, "so His DWELLING must remain the same as well... for if He dwells in a TEMPLE which is other than the one MAN represents... then HE indeed has changed..."

This quote of yours is your conclusion drawn from the premises of the quoted verses; however, your conclusion does not follow from the premises, and it is not backed by scripture. Quote me the scripture that says that "we are the temple of God AND as such, just as God does not change, WE do not change either." Don't you ever change, willieH? If you say you don't, then you must have a glorified body already.

Here's proof that we change and we will have one LAST CHANGE:

1Co 15:51  Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

We are being perfected, and this requires change. We go from glory to glory. Not even the Apostle Paul considered that he had already attained the prize.

Php 3:12  Not that I have already obtained, or AM ALREADY MADE PERFECT: but I press on, if so be that I may lay hold on that for which also I was laid hold on by Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13  Brethren, I count not myself yet to have laid hold: but one thing I do, forgetting the things which are behind, and stretching forward to the things which are before,
Php 3:14  I press on toward the goal unto the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

God does not change because He is perfect. What can you possibly add to something or somebody who is perfect? NOTHING.

Everyday life shows us that WE, the temple of God, change. The only one that remains unchangeable is GOD. His temple, his habitation, his abode, his residence CAN change. In fact, God has made His abode in SEVERAL "temples". THREE TIMES has God changed habitation.

When Israel first went into the land of Canaan, the Ark of the Covenant was placed in the Ephraimite town of Shiloh. Joshua 18:1 says,

1 Then the whole congregation of the sons of Israel assembled themselves at Shiloh, and set up the tent of meeting there; and the land was subdued before them.

After a few hundred years, the priestly family of Eli at Shiloh had become totally corrupted. His sons were seducing the women (1 Sam. 2:22) and stealing the offerings (1 Sam. 2:16). So God sent a prophet to Eli who told him (1 Sam. 2:27-36) that God was going to remove Eli's family from holding the position of the high priesthood. He would instead give it "a faithful priest" (1 Sam. 2:35).

The Bible then tells how the Philistines captured the Ark of the Covenant, and how Eli and his corrupt sons were killed the same day (1 Sam. 4:11, 18). The Philistines then destroyed the town of Shiloh and killed the priests there (Ps. 78:64). Although the Ark was returned seven months later (1 Sam. 6:1), it never went back to Shiloh. It was taken to the house of Abinadab in the town of Kirjeath-jearim (1 Sam. 7:1, 2) for the next twenty years.

The priestly center itself was relocated to the town of Nob (1 Sam. 21:1). David later moved the Ark to Jerusalem (2 Sam. 6:17), and when his son, Solomon, built the temple, the Ark was placed in it (1 Kings 8:6). Psalm 78:67-69 says,

67 He also rejected the tent of Joseph, and did not choose the tribe of Ephraim,
68 But chose the tribe of Judah, Mount Zion which He loved.
69 And He built His sanctuary like the heights, like the earth which He has founded forever.

In other words God TOOK HIS NAME OUT of the tribe of Ephraim when He removed the Ark from the Ephraimite town of Shiloh. HIS NAME AND PRESENCE had been entrusted to this son of Joseph first, because Joshua had been from this tribe. However, after the priesthood of Shiloh was rejected, He moved the Ark to Jerusalem in the tribe of Judah.

This was not merely the transfer of the Ark; it was the transfer of His name, as the prophet Jeremiah tells us later. The temple of Solomon stood for over three centuries before the Babylonian army destroyed it in 586 B.C. God allowed that temple to be destroyed because the priesthood of that place had also corrupted itself.

But before its destruction, Jeremiah prophesied that His name would be removed from that place like it had been removed earlier from Shiloh. Jeremiah 7:9-15 says,

9 Will you steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and offer sacrifices to Baal, and walk after other gods that you have not known,
10 then come and stand before Me in this house, which is called by My name, and say, We are delivered--that you may do all these abominations?
11 Has this house, which is called by My name, become a den of robbers in your sight? Behold, I, even I, have seen it, declares the Lord.
12 But go now to My place which was in Shiloh, where I made My name dwell at the first, and see what I did to it because of the wickedness of My people Israel.
13 And now, because you have done all these things, declares the Lord . . .
14 therefore, I will do to the house which is called by My name, in which you trust, and to the place which I gave you and your fathers, as I did to Shiloh.
15 And I will cast you out of My sight, as I have cast out all your brothers, all the offspring of Ephraim.

This makes it clear that Shiloh had been the first place where God had placed His name and His presence.

Years later, the priests in Jerusalem corrupted themselves as much as the house of Eli had done earlier in the Ephraimite town of Shiloh. They, too, had turned the house of God into a den of robbers. A robber den is a hideout where robbers can be immune from the law's prosecution. By violating the law, the priests in Jerusalem had turned the temple into a place where the law could be violated with immunity.

Their excuse, Jeremiah says, was that "We are delivered." The word "delivered" comes from the Hebrew word natsal, which means "to snatch away." In other words, to be exempt. The priests claimed to be exempt from following the law. This is not much different from the excuses we often hear today.

The prophet Ezekiel records seeing in a vision the glory of God depart from the temple in Jerusalem. Ezekiel 10:4 says,

4 Then the glory of the Lord went up from the cherub to the threshold of the temple, and the temple was filled with the cloud, and the court was filled with the brightness of the glory of the Lord.

Verse 18 continues,

18 Then the glory of the Lord departed from the threshold of the temple and stood over the cherubim.

In Ezekiel 11:22, 23 the prophet saw the glory depart to the Mount of Olives:

22 Then the cherubim lifted up their wings with the wheels beside them, and the glory of the God of Israel hovered over them.
23 And the glory of the Lord went up from the midst of the city, and stood over the mountain which is east of the city.

Ezekiel's vision ceased with the glory hovering over the Mount of Olives to the east of Jerusalem. This was to be the place where Jesus was crucified, for the top of the mount was precisely 2,000 cubits outside of the city walls. Jesus was crucified "outside the camp" (Heb. 13:11-13)

This was also the place where David made his sacrifice when his throne was usurped by Absalom with the help of Ahithophel, David's friend that had betrayed him. 2 Sam. 15:30 says,

30 And David went up the ascent of the Mount of Olives, and wept as he went, and his head was covered and he walked barefoot. Then all the people who were with him each covered his head and went up weeping as they went.
31 Now someone told David, saying, Ahithophel is among the conspirators with Absalom. And David said, O Lord, I pray, make the counsel of Ahithophel foolishness.
32 It happened as David was coming to the summit [Heb. rosh, "head, skull"], where God was worshiped. . . .

Ahithophel was David's friend that betrayed him. He was a prophetic type of Judas who betrayed Jesus. When David wrote about Ahithophel in Psalm 69:25 and Psalm 109:8, these passages were applied to Judas in Acts 1:20.

The summit, or "head" of the Mount of Olives was called in the New Testament Calvary, "the skull." Luke 23:33 says,

33 And when they came to the place called The Skull [Greek: kranion, "head or skull"], there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left.

So even as David sacrificed on the top of the Mount of Olives, so also did Jesus offer up Himself as the Supreme Sacrifice for sin at the same location. This, as we have seen, was also the place where the glory of the Lord had been last seen by Ezekiel.

The Final Departure and Return of God's Glory -- After Jesus' death and resurrection, He ascended to the Father. Acts 1:12 then tells us the location of His final departure:

12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away.

Why is it important to know that it was "a Sabbath day's journey"? Because this was a distance of 2,000 cubits. It was the distance from the city gate to the top of the Mount of Olives. In other words, Jesus ascended from the place where Ezekiel had last seen the glory of God as it was departing from Solomon's temple. Jesus' ascension completed this departure to heaven.

He ascended on the fortieth day from His resurrection (Acts 1:3), the traditional time of Elijah's ascension. Ten days later at the Feast of Pentecost, the glory of God returned to earth. This time it filled not the temple in Jerusalem, but the 120 disciples in the upper room (Acts 2:1-3).

This was the third time THE GLORY AND NAME of God had been fully transferred to another location. The first was at Shiloh; the second at Jerusalem; the third was the body of people known as the true temple of God. 1 Cor. 3:16 says,

16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

The glory of God--known most often in the New Testament as the Holy Spirit--now indwells us as people. God has moved from a tent at Shiloh to a temple at Jerusalem and finally now indwells a temple made of living stones (1 Peter 2:5). When He left Shiloh, He never returned. When He left Jerusalem, He said in Jer. 7:14 that He was going to leave Jerusalem like He did Shiloh.

In other words, He would never return to such mundane buildings made of wood, stone, gold, and silver. His chief desire from the beginning has been to indwell us. All other houses were inadequate to manifest His glory. The Jews may attempt to build God a new house in Jerusalem, but God is not interested in moving to a new address.


Where Has God Put His Name?

Revelation 22:4 makes it clear where God has placed His name,

4 and they shall see His face [presence], and His name shall be on their foreheads.

In the message to the Church of the Laodiceans, we read in Rev. 3:12,

12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

It is clear from this that God has now placed His name upon PEOPLE, not upon buildings, organizations, shrines, or holy real estate.

Using a partial quote of what you said to reiterate:

"for if He dwells in a TEMPLE which is other than the one MAN represents... then HE indeed has changed..."

I do believe I have shown above WITH scripture that God has dwelt in other temples, which were "other than the one MAN represents". Has God indeed changed because of this? OF COURSE NOT!!! God has dwelt in a tent and later in a temple, both manmade and perishable and destructible and changable; however, it does not follow from this that the tent did not change, or that the temple did not change. Both were destroyed! They did change! And YET, God remained unchanged!

I have shown you that God has dwelt "in a TEMPLE which is other than the one MAN represents". First He dwelt in a tent, but He departed from it. BUT, He did not change. Second, He dwelt in a temple made of stones, but He departed from it. BUT, God did not change. Surely, these two abodes of God are "other than the one MAN represents".
Using your premise, God has changed BECAUSE He has dwelt "in a TEMPLE which is other than the one MAN represents"; and not only once, but twice!

Before Christ saved you, what state was your spirit in?

After Christ saved you, what state was your spirit in?

Did your spirit undergo any changes?

Read Christ's letters to the churches in Revelation for more proof that WE, the body of Christ and temple of the Holy Spirit, DO INDEED CHANGE! The incontrovertible scriptural teaching is that God and His Christ do not change; but nowhere in scripture can be found that we, the temple of God, do not change. Quite the contrary.f

As long as I don't see solid and scriptural proof about this, I cannot accept it as a truth of God. I do not need eyes to see nor ears to hear something that is clearly a misunderstanding of scripture. As you said before, you have the right to believe this thing or other thing. IMO, this is speculation.

What's your opinion of God's dialogue with Satan in the book of Job? Does it not convince you of the existence of Satan? What about ALL the accounts of demonic possessions found throughout the New Covenant? Maybe it is you who needs the ears to ears and the eyes to see to realize that you are in error? What does it mean to you that Satan is also thrown into the lake of fire? We already know the purpose of the lake of fire for the unsaved. Why would God throw Satan in the same lake where He will also throw human beings so they can learn righteousness?

Your Christian walk might be a lengthy one, as you say. But that does not guarantee that this your belief in particular is correct. Hopefully, I have provided enough scripture this time.  :laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

Willieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee  :reachout:

Also, have you ever witnessed the possession of an individual by an evil spirit? I think if you did, you might change your "opinion". What if you yourself were possessed by an evil spirit? what would you think then?

You have little knowledge as to my experience The0... I have witnessed many things in my 33 year walk with God... 

Possession of and by an "evil spirit" is nothing but a RELIGIOUS assumption...  I have witnessed several such cases... and in ALL of them, it was nothing but MENTAL deficient, sick minds which are disconnected from the INWARD MAN... which cause them to wreak havoc upon themselves...

Even modern science agrees that the MIND can and WILL produce SYMPTOMS of diseases and such which are CHEMICALLY NOT PRESENT... And that the MIND can and WILL present apparitions to itself...

Mark 16:9  Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

Matthew 9:32  As they went out, behold, they brought to him a dumb man possessed with a devil.

Mark 7:26  The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.

Also mental deficient Willie? :laughing7:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi The0... :hithere:

willieH: Hi The0...  :cloud9:

There are several proofs of this, but mainly because GOD in His WORD says:

Please provide the rest of the "several proofs of this". If there are other proof texts, but "mainly because...", I think your other missing proof verses must be less convincing than the ones quoted below.

Why should I do this The0?  :dontknow:  You are already unconvinced by what I have presented, and that is fine with me...

I notice that YOU have shown nothing to PROVE otherwise...  :rolleye:

If I posted a thousand verses, it shall not be any more convincing to you, for you are concluded against it... and you will object to them as well... so why waste my time?

As CHRIST noted in Parable,  ...and if they HEAR NOT Moses and the prophets, NEITHER will they be persuaded though one rose from the DEAD...

He is saying that if you have not ears to hear, it doesnt matter what is said to you... you WILL NOT hear it...

I have no problem with your disagreement... you are more than welcome to continue your belief as is (whatever it is?) ...but you WILL discover one day, that what I have posted concerning this is TRUE...  :cloud9:

(1) YHVH never changes (Mal 3:6) ...We are HIS TEMPLE (1 Cor 6:19) in which HE DWELLS... He does not CHANGE, so His DWELLING must remain the same as well... for if He dwells in a TEMPLE which is other than the one MAN represents... then HE indeed has changed...  MEN are created, physical and TIME BOUND and TEMPORAL beings, ...SONS are SPIRIT and have ALWAYS BEEN...

(2)  we are the BODY of CHRIST (Rom 12:5 / 1 Cor 12:12-18 / 1 Cor 12:27)... and Scripture states that CHRIST never changes (Heb 13:8)... so subsequently, His BODY never changes either...

You are 'twisting the arms' of these verses to make them prove your belief.

Says YOU... (in YOUR words only!)   :thumbdown:

I am doing no such thing... YHVH God and His CHRIST are noted as UNCHANGING... I have provided the verses that state this...  If in fact they do not change... then that which they INHABIT (body and temple) does not change... which is the SPIRIT of men... which is the LIFE which animates ALL MEN...  ALL MEN die for they are NATURAL not SPIRITUAL...

That portion of MEN which is a member of the BODY, and TEMPLE of GOD, returns to HIM...

That you have not received this revelation is that which prompts you to object to it... just as those who have not received the revelation of UR, and believe ET... will argue with you till the cowz come home...

Hi willieH! thanx for undertaking the monumental task of explaining things to me.  :bigGrin:

By reading this thread, i do not think i fully know what it is that you believe on the topic.

It is really curious that you have not gained my perspective, for I have noted it several times, and YOU have found DISAGREEMENT with it!  How can you DISAGREE with something of which you have no perspective?  :dontknow:

So you may be clear as to what I believe, as briefly and to the point, ...here goes...

(1) Did HOLY ANGELS ever "Fall"?

MY BELIEF:  NO... there is no Scriptural basis for this, even though THEOLOGIANS have ascribed to passages which they contend that do so...  Those passages are NEGATED within the various texts noted by them... (i.e. ...Is 14, ...Ez 28 ...Rev 12)

Furthermore, that an IMPERFECT activity ("angels" falling, rebelling, ...whatever) happened in a PERFECT scenario, negates the PERFECTION of that scenario... as well as promotes the idea that if it occured ONCE, it is "PERFECTLY" possible that it can occur AGAIN...
 

(2) And if so, WHERE and HOW, did they "Fall"?

MY BELIEF:  No such scenario ever took place... the "fall" is a creation of THEOLOGY, which IGNORES specifics within the TEXT or the settings of the TEXT.  ALL (not some, or 2/3's) of the HOLY ANGELS of GOD shall accompany CHRIST when He "comes" (Matt 25:31)

(3) And if so, where do we find SALVATION from "their Fall" provided for them?

MY BELIEF:  There is NO SCRIPTURAL basis for "SALVATION of ANGELS"... CHRIST came as a MAN [not an "angel" on behalf of "fallen angels"](1 Tim 2:5)   ...tasted DEATH for EVERY MAN [not "fallen" angels]... (Heb 2:9)

(4) If ANGELS "sinned", why do they NOT ...DIE? (wages of sin being death & all that!)

MY BELIEF:  There is no SCRIPTURAL basis that any ANGEL of GOD ever "sinned".  SIN being a side effect in the gaining of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... NO SUCH SCENARIO is presented in the WORD of GOD concerning ANGELS and the ASSUMPTION, that they too, had access to this KNOWLEDGE...

On the contrary... the SUPPOSITION is that an ANGEL of GOD, 1st found a way to challenge GOD, then had power enough to convince 1/3 of the Heavenly ANGELS that He was indeed justified... This is a concocted event which upon scrutiny of "proof texts" offered (not just blind acceptance of theological proposals)... falls into fallacy.

THERE!  If you yet do not understand my belief... then there is not much sense in a continuing dialogue between us...  :dontknow:

I am not concluded, as you say, against believing what you understand scriptures to mean. I am willing to try to understand your belief, and accept it as gospel truth IF AND ONLY IF you can show to me that it (your belief) is backed by scripture.

The verses you quoted do not show this backing. Let me tell you what I understand from these verses you quoted.

TRUTH: The Lord God is unchangeable
TRUTH: The Son of God is unchangeable
TRUTH: Our bodies are the temple of God

Let me stop here for a moment...

1... To begin with The0... it is YOUR belief that the verses I quoted do not show "this backing"... I challenge that thinking.  You must therefore believe that [1] CHRIST was an ETERNAL "head" without a BODY... and that [2] FLESHLY BEINGS had to be created to SUPPLY the need for a SPIRITUAL ENTITY to have a BODY... 

Also... you must needs believe that a PERFECT and ALL POWERFUL YHVH GOD had NO TEMPLE in which to DWELL... so He "dwelled" in NOTHING...  :thumbdown:  You are welcome to this thinking bro...

2... Your #3 "truth" you mention above, is concerning a SPIRITUAL ENTITY, not FLESH... For the SPIRIT of GOD and KINGDOM of GOD are not affiliated with FLESH...  The defiling of the TEMPLE of GOD is the defiling of SPIRIT, ...not flesh... for FLESH can only be defiled by that which coincides and COOPERATES with DEATH... which is OF the FLESH...

CHRIST showed in His life on earth, while living WITHIN FLESH, that He did not and WOULD NOT align Himself with the FLESH... for a SON of GOD does not align itself with FLESH... Which is HOW and WHY He was able to be OUR SAVIOR from it... and is that which TRANSFORMS us, bringing us out of FLESH which must die and be deposited as dust, where IT began... to the SONS of GOD which by the POWER of the SAVIOR, rescues us and RETURNS us where WE began, SONS... members of His Body... the TEMPLE of the ALMIGHTY... which ALWAYS IS...

So far so good. The above three truths are backed by scripture, which you quoted. Where scripture ends and your opinion begins is when you state that He [God] does not change, "so His DWELLING must remain the same as well... for if He dwells in a TEMPLE which is other than the one MAN represents... then HE indeed has changed..."

This quote of yours is your conclusion drawn from the premises of the quoted verses; however, your conclusion does not follow from the premises, and it is not backed by scripture. Quote me the scripture that says that "we are the temple of God AND as such, just as God does not change, WE do not change either." Don't you ever change, willieH? If you say you don't, then you must have a glorified body already.

As a MAN... I certainly DO change The0... but as a SON, which is submitted to the one that DOES NOT CHANGE... I do NOT CHANGE...  I absorb the KNOWLEDGE which is wrought in the FLESH... a different entity... 

We are 2 things here on earth as CHRIST aptly noted... that those who are NOT converted (from flesh), are IN FLESH and DEAD which is that which CHRIST DID NOT die to redeem...  :mnah:

Those that ARE converted (from flesh), are ALIVE in the SPIRIT The0... which is that which CHRIST DID die to redeem...  :bgdance:

Here's proof that we change and we will have one LAST CHANGE:

1Co 15:51  Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

We are being perfected, and this requires change. We go from glory to glory. Not even the Apostle Paul considered that he had already attained the prize.

Php 3:12  Not that I have already obtained, or AM ALREADY MADE PERFECT: but I press on, if so be that I may lay hold on that for which also I was laid hold on by Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13  Brethren, I count not myself yet to have laid hold: but one thing I do, forgetting the things which are behind, and stretching forward to the things which are before,
Php 3:14  I press on toward the goal unto the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

God does not change because He is perfect. What can you possibly add to something or somebody who is perfect? NOTHING.

You confine yourself to FLESHLY and CONTRADICTORY observance here brother T...  GOD does NOT CHANGE, yet His TEMPLE and BODY ...do?  Please... The "change" that PAUL notes above is the REDEMPTION from the FLESHLY experience required in the process of GAINING [via experience] the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

Here is an EXAMPLE:  If I read a book on DRIVING a CAR... my "HEAD" has the KNOWLEDGE of DRIVING... but do I therefore ...KNOW how TO DRIVE? NO... I do NOT... it is NOT UNTIL that INFORMATION which my "HEAD" has, is transferred to MY BODY... that I GAIN the KNOWLEDGE (completely) of DRIVING a CAR...

In this process... is my "HEAD" changed? ...NO... is my "BODY" changed? ...again, NO...

Everyday life shows us that WE, the temple of God, change. The only one that remains unchangeable is GOD. His temple, his habitation, his abode, his residence CAN change. In fact, God has made His abode in SEVERAL "temples". THREE TIMES has God changed habitation.

I think what you do not understand is:  ...what comprises a SON, and ...what comprises a MAN... MEN are NOT SONS... they are an entity which is ADVERSE to the SON within them... they are of FLESHLY MIND, and of FLESHLY substance...  SONS are the body and temple of GOD which are of SPIRITUAL MIND and SPIRITUAL substance...

We are NOT individual "SONS"... we are MEMBERS of the SON (Body -- not Bodies of CHRIST)... we are NOT individual "TEMPLES", we are components of the TEMPLE... 

Paul didnt note:  No ye not that ye are the TEMPLES [plural] of GOD?  He said:  "No ye not that ye are the TEMPLE [singular] of GOD?"

GOD does not INHABIT foul places dear brother The0... He is a HOLY GOD and only occupies HOLY Things, one of which is EACH portion (son) of His SON which is within FLESH which is DEFILED... GOD does not inhabit our FLESH, come on dude!  It is our FALLEN minds which occupy this nastiness... But we are 2 entities as was CHRIST...  We, as FLESHLY beings have CARNAL minds... that mind is in OPPOSITION to CHRIST... (which is the WORD)

The MIND that was IN CHRIST was the WILL of YHVH -- SPIRITUAL... the MIND which is in and constitutes MEN, is -- CARNAL. (Phil 2:5)

This is WHY our minds must be ELIMINATED!  It is OUR WILL which is the CARNAL mind... and which enacts the deeds of the flesh...

We must DIE DAILY... Let that mind be IN YOU that was also IN, ...CHRIST JESUS... That "mind" is SPIRIT which enacts the WILL of GOD...

Thanks for providing all the Scriptural notations...

It shows me where you are in your observance...

This will end here and continue in my next post... too many characters.

END of PART ONE...

peacE...
willieH   :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

1... To begin with The0... it is YOUR belief that the verses I quoted do not show "this backing"... I challenge that thinking.  You must therefore believe that [1] CHRIST was an ETERNAL "head" without a BODY... and that [2] FLESHLY BEINGS had to be created to SUPPLY the need for a SPIRITUAL ENTITY to have a BODY... 

Also... you must needs believe that a PERFECT and ALL POWERFUL YHVH GOD had NO TEMPLE in which to DWELL... so He "dwelled" in NOTHING...    You are welcome to this thinking bro...

1Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

---Isa 66



20Jesus replied, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."

--Mat 8

[Molly]

We are NOT individual "SONS"... we are MEMBERS of the SON (Body -- not Bodies of CHRIST)... we are NOT individual "TEMPLES", we are components of the TEMPLE... 

3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

--Rev 21

[willieH]

willieH: Hi The0...  :cloud9:

Continuing...  :heat:

The prophet Ezekiel records seeing in a vision the glory of God depart from the temple in Jerusalem. Ezekiel 10:4 says,

4 Then the glory of the Lord went up from the cherub to the threshold of the temple, and the temple was filled with the cloud, and the court was filled with the brightness of the glory of the Lord.

Verse 18 continues,

18 Then the glory of the Lord departed from the threshold of the temple and stood over the cherubim.

The word translated here "departed" [YATSA -- #H3318 strongs]  in vs 18 has MANY applications, one of which is depart, but also means  Appear, Bring forth, and many others... GOD never LEAVES... He IS ALWAYS there... in ALL the "there's" there are!  :laughing7:

The context does not conclude that HE LEFT His temple... GOD is OMNIPRESENT The0 and ...DOES NOT CHANGE... so HE IS... ALWAYS EVERYWHERE! ...He does not "come and go" as do finite men who endeavor to observe Him... As you attempt to propose with this verse.

In Ezekiel 11:22, 23 the prophet saw the glory depart to the Mount of Olives:

22 Then the cherubim lifted up their wings with the wheels beside them, and the glory of the God of Israel hovered over them.
23 And the glory of the Lord went up from the midst of the city, and stood over the mountain which is east of the city.

More of the same inaccurate and FINITE attempt at observance of the INFINITE... This verse is easily seen as His GLORY emanating from the "midst" to "over the mountain east of the city"...

Ezekiel's vision ceased with the glory hovering over the Mount of Olives to the east of Jerusalem. This was to be the place where Jesus was crucified, for the top of the mount was precisely 2,000 cubits outside of the city walls. Jesus was crucified "outside the camp" (Heb. 13:11-13)

This was also the place where David made his sacrifice when his throne was usurped by Absalom with the help of Ahithophel, David's friend that had betrayed him. 2 Sam. 15:30 says,

30 And David went up the ascent of the Mount of Olives, and wept as he went, and his head was covered and he walked barefoot. Then all the people who were with him each covered his head and went up weeping as they went.
31 Now someone told David, saying, Ahithophel is among the conspirators with Absalom. And David said, O Lord, I pray, make the counsel of Ahithophel foolishness.
32 It happened as David was coming to the summit [Heb. rosh, "head, skull"], where God was worshiped. . . .

Ahithophel was David's friend that betrayed him. He was a prophetic type of Judas who betrayed Jesus. When David wrote about Ahithophel in Psalm 69:25 and Psalm 109:8, these passages were applied to Judas in Acts 1:20.

The summit, or "head" of the Mount of Olives was called in the New Testament Calvary, "the skull." Luke 23:33 says,

33 And when they came to the place called The Skull [Greek: kranion, "head or skull"], there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left.

So even as David sacrificed on the top of the Mount of Olives, so also did Jesus offer up Himself as the Supreme Sacrifice for sin at the same location. This, as we have seen, was also the place where the glory of the Lord had been last seen by Ezekiel.

The Final Departure and Return of God's Glory -- After Jesus' death and resurrection, He ascended to the Father. Acts 1:12 then tells us the location of His final departure:

12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away.

Why is it important to know that it was "a Sabbath day's journey"? Because this was a distance of 2,000 cubits. It was the distance from the city gate to the top of the Mount of Olives. In other words, Jesus ascended from the place where Ezekiel had last seen the glory of God as it was departing from Solomon's temple. Jesus' ascension completed this departure to heaven.

:laughhand:  To be honest dear brother T, this is really quite humourous... 2000 "cubits" ...is approximately 3000 to 4000 feet... (cubit= 1.5 - 2.25 feet) much less than even a mile (5280 feet)

You are really reaching in your theology... which is just fine with me...  :grin:

He ascended on the fortieth day from His resurrection (Acts 1:3), the traditional time of Elijah's ascension. Ten days later at the Feast of Pentecost, the glory of God returned to earth. This time it filled not the temple in Jerusalem, but the 120 disciples in the upper room (Acts 2:1-3).

This was the third time THE GLORY AND NAME of God had been fully transferred to another location. The first was at Shiloh; the second at Jerusalem; the third was the body of people known as the true temple of God. 1 Cor. 3:16 says,

16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

More PHYSICAL displacements place upon an entity which has NO PHYSICAL attributes whatsoever... It is the "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin" type of thinking...

Try removing your mind from the confines of the PHYSICAL when you endeavor to percieve the SPIRITUAL, it will help your understandings immensely bro...

GOD does NOT move from one "location" to another, neither does He INDWELL non-living entities... for He is the GOD of the LIVING, not of the the "dead"... the "dead" comprise all things which are SPIRITUALLY INANIMATE... or "NOT LIVING"... (Mark 12:27 / Matt 22:32)

HE does NOT DWELL in temples made by the hand of Man (such as MANufactured TENTS or MANufactured cities -- Jerusalem)... (Acts 7:48 & 17:24-25)

The glory of God--known most often in the New Testament as the Holy Spirit--now indwells us as people. God has moved from a tent at Shiloh to a temple at Jerusalem and finally now indwells a temple made of living stones (1 Peter 2:5). When He left Shiloh, He never returned. When He left Jerusalem, He said in Jer. 7:14 that He was going to leave Jerusalem like He did Shiloh.

In other words, He would never return to such mundane buildings made of wood, stone, gold, and silver. His chief desire from the beginning has been to indwell us. All other houses were inadequate to manifest His glory. The Jews may attempt to build God a new house in Jerusalem, but God is not interested in moving to a new address.

Your biggest problem here is that you continue in PHYSICAL thinking to percieve SPIRITUAL... JESUS said:  I will NEVER LEAVE you nor FORSAKE you... NEVER goes in ALL DIRECTIONS bro... JESUS is an ETERNAL entity which is not confined to such as TIME and the PHYSICAL... You are stuck in yesterdays theology which is rooted in CARNALITY... and engages SPIRITUAL entities with its limited, PHYSICAL proximities...

Where Has God Put His Name?

Revelation 22:4 makes it clear where God has placed His name,

4 and they shall see His face [presence], and His name shall be on their foreheads.

In the message to the Church of the Laodiceans, we read in Rev. 3:12,

12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

It is clear from this that God has now placed His name upon PEOPLE, not upon buildings, organizations, shrines, or holy real estate.

Using a partial quote of what you said to reiterate:

"for if He dwells in a TEMPLE which is other than the one MAN represents... then HE indeed has changed..."

I do believe I have shown above WITH scripture that God has dwelt in other temples, which were "other than the one MAN represents". Has God indeed changed because of this? OF COURSE NOT!!! God has dwelt in a tent and later in a temple, both manmade and perishable and destructible and changable; however, it does not follow from this that the tent did not change, or that the temple did not change. Both were destroyed! They did change! And YET, God remained unchanged!

I have shown you that God has dwelt "in a TEMPLE which is other than the one MAN represents". First He dwelt in a tent, but He departed from it. BUT, He did not change. Second, He dwelt in a temple made of stones, but He departed from it. BUT, God did not change. Surely, these two abodes of God are "other than the one MAN represents".

Using your premise, God has changed BECAUSE He has dwelt "in a TEMPLE which is other than the one MAN represents"; and not only once, but twice!

Before Christ saved you, what state was your spirit in?

After Christ saved you, what state was your spirit in?

Did your spirit undergo any changes?

Read Christ's letters to the churches in Revelation for more proof that WE, the body of Christ and temple of the Holy Spirit, DO INDEED CHANGE! The incontrovertible scriptural teaching is that God and His Christ do not change; but nowhere in scripture can be found that we, the temple of God, do not change. Quite the contrary.f

As long as I don't see solid and scriptural proof about this, I cannot accept it as a truth of God. I do not need eyes to see nor ears to hear something that is clearly a misunderstanding of scripture. As you said before, you have the right to believe this thing or other thing. IMO, this is speculation.

What's your opinion of God's dialogue with Satan in the book of Job? Does it not convince you of the existence of Satan? What about ALL the accounts of demonic possessions found throughout the New Covenant? Maybe it is you who needs the ears to ears and the eyes to see to realize that you are in error? What does it mean to you that Satan is also thrown into the lake of fire? We already know the purpose of the lake of fire for the unsaved. Why would God throw Satan in the same lake where He will also throw human beings so they can learn righteousness?

Your Christian walk might be a lengthy one, as you say. But that does not guarantee that this your belief in particular is correct. Hopefully, I have provided enough scripture this time.  :laughing7:

And I have shown you that your thinking is in PHYSICAL terms not SPIRITUAL... you have an OMNIPRESENT being, coming and going... From a tent to a MAN... GOD is in everything and EVERYWHERE The0...  but His DWELLING PLACE is in the TEMPLE of the HEART of His SON... and subsequently, ..the MEMBERS of HIS SON's BODY...


You have indeed quoted A lot of SCRIPTURE (for which I commend you), however you fail to make ONE SPIRITUAL point... bringing your PHYSICAL observance of SPIRITUAL matters into your conclusions...  :dontknow:

Your provision of SCRIPTURE is only the observance of the HISTORICAL actions of MAN, which when SIMPLIFIED, denote that GOD FREES or brings BACK what HE decided would be made CAPTIVE...

As far as my "lengthy walk" The0... your NON-lengthy one does not conclude that it is "correct" either...

I noted the length of my walk, not to compare it to you or anyone, nor to verify my observances as "correct" (btw -- no man is "correct" GOD is the ONLY entity which is "correct" and HE deems who shall KNOW what HE KNOWS)...

Rather that "length" was revealed to note that in 33 years I have observed many things concerning that which is called SPIRITUAL... to include the false SPIRITUAL "demonic possessions" which MEN observe and CONCLUDE in the FLESH to be SPIRITUAL... Please!  :laughing7:


peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[willieH]

willieH: :rolleye:

More short sighted offerings from you:

We are NOT individual "SONS"... we are MEMBERS of the SON (Body -- not Bodies of CHRIST)... we are NOT individual "TEMPLES", we are components of the TEMPLE... 

3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

--Rev 21

The MEMBERS of the BODY and TEMPLE, are "they, them & their"... get a clue  :rolleye:

Try reading (1 Cor 12:12-27)... if you desire to learn... or ignore it if you desire ignorance...  :sigh:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[Paul Hazelwood]

(1) Did HOLY ANGELS ever "Fall"? 

If the answer to (1) is No, then the next 3 questions need not be addressed.



Hb 2:5 For not to messengers does He subject the impending inhabited earth, concerning which we are speaking.


In the new testament, it appears that the same greek word is used for messengers and context provides the way to determine whether it is to be translated angels,  as a result, these passages, whether translated messengers or angels, should be meticulously looked at.

In the verse above, we find the qualifying context in verse 7.

Hb 2:7 Thou makest him some bit inferior to messengers, With glory and honor Thou wreathest him, And dost place him over the works of Thy hands.


God does not subject his angels to the inhabited earth, Jesus was made a little lower than the angels and did subject him to the inhabited earth.  We were subjected to this earth, unwillingly.   Whatever was subjected to this earth was done so by Gods hands.

Since God does not do that to his angels, then the scriptures saying angels fell to earth in sin are not understood properly by the ones holding that doctrine.

[Molly]

willieH: :rolleye:

More short sighted offerings from you:

We are NOT individual "SONS"... we are MEMBERS of the SON (Body -- not Bodies of CHRIST)... we are NOT individual "TEMPLES", we are components of the TEMPLE... 

3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

--Rev 21

The MEMBERS of the BODY and TEMPLE, are "they, them & their"... get a clue  :rolleye:

Try reading (1 Cor 12:12-27)... if you desire to learn... or ignore it if you desire ignorance...  :sigh:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?


....yet in my flesh shall I see God.

[Molly]

(1) Did HOLY ANGELS ever "Fall"? 

If the answer to (1) is No, then the next 3 questions need not be addressed.



Hb 2:5 For not to messengers does He subject the impending inhabited earth, concerning which we are speaking.


In the new testament, it appears that the same greek word is used for messengers and context provides the way to determine whether it is to be translated angels,  as a result, these passages, whether translated messengers or angels, should be meticulously looked at.

In the verse above, we find the qualifying context in verse 7.

Hb 2:7 Thou makest him some bit inferior to messengers, With glory and honor Thou wreathest him, And dost place him over the works of Thy hands.


God does not subject his angels to the inhabited earth, Jesus was made a little lower than the angels and did subject him to the inhabited earth.  We were subjected to this earth, unwillingly.   Whatever was subjected to this earth was done so by Gods hands.

Since God does not do that to his angels, then the scriptures saying angels fell to earth in sin are not understood properly by the ones holding that doctrine.

What that means is that the angels do not have dominion.  God gave man dominion.



5 God has not put angels in charge of the world that is going to come. We are talking about that world. 6 There is a place where someone has given witness to it. He said,
   "What is a human being that you think about him?
      What is the son of man that you take care of him?
7 You made him a little lower than the angels.
      You placed on him a crown of glory and honor.
    8 You have put everything under his control." —(Psalm 8:4-6)
So God has put everything under him. Everything is under his control.
   We do not now see everything under his control. 9 But we do see Jesus already given a crown of glory and honor. He was made a little lower than the angels. He suffered death. By the grace of God, he tasted death for everyone. That is why he was given his crown.

--Hebrews 2



26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

--Gen 1

[Paul Hazelwood]

G5293  hupotasso  hoop-ot-as'-so

from G5259 and G5021;

to subordinate; reflexively, to obey:--be under obedience (obedient), put
under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to,
under), submit self unto.


The roots that help with context to this has nothing to do with giving dominion.  It is subjection to something and it is not the same as dominion.

This is what he does not do to the angels concerning the world.   The verse when looking at the greek does not imply  the world after this one.



G3195  mello  mel'-lo

a strengthened form of G3199 (through the idea of expectation);

to intend, i.e. be about to be, do, or suffer something (of persons or things,
especially events; in the sense of purpose, duty, necessity, probability,
possibility, or hesitation):--about, after that, be (almost), (that which is,
things, + which was for) to come, intend, was to (be), mean, mind, be at the
point, (be) ready, + return, shall (begin), (which, that) should (after,
afterwards, hereafter) tarry, which was for, will, would, be yet.



The root modifier

G3199  melo  mel'-o

a primary verb;

to be of interest to, i.e. to concern (only third person singular present
indicative used impersonally, it matters):--(take) care.


Then we have position context, right in scripture, hebrews is after the account of Jesus life on earth.

Hb 2:9 Yet we are observing *Jesus, Who |has been made anysome bit inferior~ besideto messengers (because of the suffering of death, wreathed with glory and honor), so that in the grace of God, He should be tasting death for the sake of everyone.

[pneuma]

To see ones nakedness and not be ashamed

is that not a spiritual state/mindset??



Rom 8:5  For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Your point being?

We fell from a spiritual state

Laren I also beleive while in the garden Adam was in a spiritual state.

But Adam was NOT CREATED IN THE GARDEN, he was of the EARTH earthy.

Thus to say he was first in spirit and then natural is contrary to all scripture.

[willieH]

willieH: to the TOPIC ignoring, discussionist...  :thumbdown:

willieH: :rolleye:

More short sighted offerings from you:

We are NOT individual "SONS"... we are MEMBERS of the SON (Body -- not Bodies of CHRIST)... we are NOT individual "TEMPLES", we are components of the TEMPLE... 

3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

--Rev 21

The MEMBERS of the BODY and TEMPLE, are "they, them & their"... get a clue  :rolleye:

Try reading (1 Cor 12:12-27)... if you desire to learn... or ignore it if you desire ignorance...  :sigh:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?


....yet in my flesh shall I see God.

:laugh:

I see you are still stuck in the FLESH, as you continue to ignore the TOPIC...  :thumbdown:

Please note the SCRIPTURE which says the YOU shall SEE GOD while IN FLESH...

The YOU that GOD dwells in, ...is SPIRIT... not FLESH... get a clue...  :pitiful:

FLESH & BLOOD have nothing to do with the KINGDOM of GOD... get a clue... :pitiful:

FLESH is contrary to SPIRIT (Gal 5:17) ...get a clue... :pitiful:

We are to know no man according to FLESH (2 Cor 5:16) ...get a clue... :pitiful:

You obviously opt for IGNORANCE... not surprising... for the stubborn of heart, learn not...  :sigh:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[Molly]

5For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

5Now it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking.

5We know that God did not put the future world under the power of angels.

5 For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels.

5 God did not choose angels to be the rulers of the new world that was coming, which is what we have been talking about.


---Hebrews 2



He is pointing out that the angels will not rule over the world to come, but Christ and his saints (who are men) will rule over that world.

But, for now, for a little while, He has placed men, and therefore Christ (who comes to save men), a little lower than the angels--even though man has been given dominion over the world.





7Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:




7For some little time You have ranked him lower than and inferior to the angels; You have crowned him with glory and honor and set him over the works of Your hands:



7You made him for a little while lower than the angels;
  you have crowned him with glory and honor



7You made us lower

  than the angels

  for a while.

  Yet you have crowned us

  with glory and honor



7 You have made him a little lower than the angels;
     You have crowned him with glory and honor,
      And set him over the works of Your hands.

[Molly]

Please note the SCRIPTURE which says the YOU shall SEE GOD while IN FLESH...

I thought I did.  Job does see God while he is still in the flesh.  He spends the last part of the book of Job talking to God.


Mat 5
8"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Think your right on that count Molly.

[martincisneros]

Sorry WillieH, I have to go with Molly on this one.  1Corinthians 6:15-20 says that it's your body that's the Temple and it warns against making the Temple of God one with prostitutes, remember?  This is along the lines of what I've been warning occasionally about that "flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom of God" is a truth, but not the truth.  It's a partial truth.  You inherit the kingdom, but not with your flesh or your performance or your self sacrifice, but it's with your faith, or rather with the faith of Jesus as Scripture clarifies more fully elsewhere.  Otherwise, overcoming wouldn't be until the next life, yet our rewards are based upon forcefully advancing the kingdom while in the flesh.  And 1John says that we are of God and HAVE overcome spirits of antiChrist.  St. Paul was simply paraphrasing Jesus' comment, or alluding to Jesus' comment, about the flesh profiting nothing, the Words that I speak to you are spirit and they are life. 

But if the flesh literally profited nothing under any circumstances, then why are the Scriptures so meticulous about the details of the suffering of Christ and the benefits that we derive from each particular thing that happened to Him instead of simply leaving it at the fact that He went through a lot, He can sympathize, and He's merciful?  But the Bible gets graphic about "by His stripes ye were healed; He was bruised for our iniquities; He was marred more than any other man; none of His bones were broken; His side was pierced and Blood and Water flowed -- likely the same Blood and Water mentioned in 1John 5."  His obedience is a spiritual matter and it makes all that He did in our behalf good in our behalf, and I'm not minimizing that, but the Bible says that our labors in the Lord aren't in vain, and yet most of our laborers are the working of flesh and blood under the direction of our spirit trying to follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

1Corinthians 3:16-17 says that you are God's temple and it's an isolated instance where the "you" is talking about your body because it's saying that if you destroy God's temple, then God will destroy the one who destroys God's temple.  Or is it an isolated instance? Harming the temple is virtually impossible, apart from false doctrine and things like that, if you were talking only in terms of your spirit.  But 1Thessalonians 5:23 talks about being sanctified completely: spirit, soul, and body.

[The0]

willieH: Hi The0...  :cloud9:

Continuing...  :heat:

The prophet Ezekiel records seeing in a vision the glory of God depart from the temple in Jerusalem. Ezekiel 10:4 says,

4 Then the glory of the Lord went up from the cherub to the threshold of the temple, and the temple was filled with the cloud, and the court was filled with the brightness of the glory of the Lord.

Verse 18 continues,

18 Then the glory of the Lord departed from the threshold of the temple and stood over the cherubim.

The word translated here "departed" [YATSA -- #H3318 strongs]  in vs 18 has MANY applications, one of which is depart, but also means  Appear, Bring forth, and many others... GOD never LEAVES... He IS ALWAYS there... in ALL the "there's" there are!  :laughing7:

The context does not conclude that HE LEFT His temple... GOD is OMNIPRESENT The0 and ...DOES NOT CHANGE... so HE IS... ALWAYS EVERYWHERE! ...He does not "come and go" as do finite men who endeavor to observe Him... As you attempt to propose with this verse.

You think me a child that does not and cannot understand that He left His temple while at the same staying because of His omnipresence. Before the Lord descended upon Mount Sinai, was there a cloud covering it and lightning? did the mount tremble? NO. Because the Lord had not descended. Was He at the mount before He descended? Of course He was. The fact is that God's presence at the mount was made known by the visible cloud and thunder and lightning AND scripture says that God descended. Do not ignore the plain text.

:cloud9: Come down from cloud nine, my brother! You are too high and exalted! :cloud9:

thank you for saying that my experience is NON-lengthy.  :thumbdown: by this you have asserted you know me well. i don't know how. wait! it must be your spiritual eyes and spiritual ears, which i and other BLIND and DEAF humans who disagree with you lack so sorely.

i prefer to wait for God to confirm to me PERSONALLY the strange belief that you are trying to pass for truth. At this time, your poorly constructed 'proof' does not do the job. You are so close and convinced by your own argument, that you fail to see that the conclusion does not logically follow from the premises.

HOWEVER, UR I can believe because it is taught by scripture. In fact, early believers held to UR belief. Can you trace back your strange belief all the way to the early church? I wonder...

If you are going to post about a strange belief like this one which you believe to be true and hope to enlighten us, at least provide supporting scripture and well constructed arguments which can lead readers to consider and ultimately accept the your strange belief as "truth". As you present it, it does not pass muster; it remains a pet belief of yours, at best!

Having said this, I have no more desire nor interest to discuss this because it is not edifying me. UR fills me with joy and hope for my loved ones and all others who have died and are dying and will die not knowing our Lord Jesus Christ. This strange belief does not even excite one cell of my being. And I know why this is.

I close by saying that I respect your right to hold this or any other belief and your right to post about it. May the Lord bless us both, and continue to fulfill His purpose for our lives.

:grouppray:

[Molly]

We have those on earth now who are controlled by the spirit of Satan.  They are unrepentant, remorseless sociopaths, without mercy, without empathy, driven by a blind need for power over others.

We have those who are like Eve, watching the mesmerizing sway of the serpent, falling into a trance, and lining up in agreement with him that good is evil and evil good--the walking dead.

And, we have--I look for them everywhere--the sons of God--the second Adam--yes they are here among us.

I have seen them--the crowning glory of the creation of God.




19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

--James 2

[Paul Hazelwood]

I was definatly wrong about the verse I thought I saw that God would not subject his angels to the inhabited earth,  a bit of dyslexia as I was reading, LOL.

However, I am still not convinced that Angels once residing with God "Fell" from a state of grace to a state of sin through some choice to be rebellious.

We still have the problem of more than one heaven to contend with as well.    Are we in a realm of heaven as we speak?   

The problem is that I do not believe there has been close enough attention paid to the verses that are translated with the word angels.

For instance:

2Pt 2:4 For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;



Does this verse really pertain to angels considering this following passage?


Mt 7:21  "Not everyone *saying to Me  `Lord! Lord!'  will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens.

Mt 7:22 Many will be declaring to Me in that day,  `Lord! Lord! Was it not in Your name that we prophesy, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many powerful deeds?'

Mt 7:23 And then shall I be avowing to them that  `I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers of  lawlessness!'

Nothing in the passage denies that they were doing things in Jesus name,  it doesn't even deny the success of these deeds.   It merely shows the motivation behind what was done.  However, this also does not mean they were not messengers that "were not spared"
Spared from what?   Judgment.    Could have those workers of lawlessness been messengers as the word allows for defining as "pastors", yes indeed I believe so.    Could have these pastors delivered a message of God that inspired others to do Gods work?  Yes indeed,  we have physical proof of that today.


Another example

In the old testament, we see the limitations of strongs to be relied upon real heavily.  Not that strongs is  bad,  only that we must recognize limitations when we see them.

Here is what I am talking about.

The same strongs reference is given for two variations.

Ps 78:49 He sent upon them the heat of His anger, Rage and menace and distress, A mission of the messengers of perils,
Above "messengers" is  H4397  in the Hebrew  it is translated   "messengers - of"  mlaki



Ps 91:11 For He shall enjoin His messengers concerning you, To keep you in all your ways.

Again,  the exact same strongs reference  however, the hebrew says  "messengers-of him"
the spelling also has an additional character.  mlaki.u 


In the new testament,  there is only one word that i have seen that is translated to messengers.

G32  aggelos  ang'-el-os

from aggello (probably derived from G71; compare G34) (to bring tidings);

a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor:--angel,
messenger.


The word is not limited to being an angel,  but,  the verses that use that word,  contain the context for how it is used and determines its usage.

A couple of specific examples.

Mark 8:38  in a translation that says "Holy Angels"   literally rendered for context  "of the Father" of him   with the  "messengers  the holy"


Matthew 25:41  talks about "Satan and his angels"

Literally for context  "to the" "thru-caster" and "to the" "messengers" "of him"


I think the word angels is not a proper word in many cases.   I am not saying that there are no "Angels"  What I believe is that the word "angel" automatically induces the thought of something that is "WITH GOD"   so when we hear  "satan and his angels"  we think  "Oh No, what happened?"

When in reality,  there was no fall from heaven,   Satan was created exactly as he is and so were "his" messengers.   


The word angel invokes a line of reasoning that skews how scripture is looked at in my opinion. 

 

[Molly]

43When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

44Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

45Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

---Mat 12





12For we are not wrestling with flesh and blood [contending only with physical opponents], but against the despotisms, against the powers, against [the master spirits who are] the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spirit forces of wickedness in the heavenly (supernatural) sphere.

--Eph 6

[Craig]

There are two problems here:
1) The problem here that I see once again, some people are demonstrating they know not what a spirit is. They keep going towards Hollywood versions and fictional books.

Spirits are not living beings, they are spirits. Spirits do not have form, they are strong holds and powers of the mind. If you are a giver, you have the spirit of giving. If you are a liar, you have a lying spirit in your mouth. If you have joy and peace, you have the spirit of joy and peace. If you are evil, you have within you an evil spirit.

2) The believe that Celestial Angels have fallen from heaven. They keep going towards Hollywood versions and fictional books.

The problem of Celestial Angels falling from heaven, is not that it is impossible (though I have demonstrated in the past very improbable). The first aspect to this problem is theological. If Angels, the very spirit messengers of God, fell from heaven, then none of us, anyone or anything in Creation is ever safe and salvation is a false hope. What stops anything from rebelling against God again?

The second aspect to this problem is Jesus's words in the Gospels. Angels cannot die, that means they cannot sin because the only way one can die is to sin. Jesus said Angels have no sexual relations, which most people say is the cause to the angelic rebellion. Jesus said that a Kingdom divided against itself will not stand. If a kingdom divided against itself shall not stand, then why are you submitting to a God who had a rebellion in his own heavenly kingdom by the very spirits He created to administrate it?

There is no reason, logical or theological, which in the end constitutes the God created Celestial Angels to fall or that spirits are living beings.

[Molly]

What stops anything from rebelling against God again?

That's what we are for.

1 Corinthians 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?