The Revealing of Jesus Christ

[WhiteWings]

The Origin of Satan



Lucifer and other Fallen Angels


Who was Lucifer?

Lucifer was the Anointed Cherub. Anointed means to be set apart for Gods Divine purpose. It also means "bestowal of Gods divine favor", and "appointment to a special place or function."
God had given Satan a certain amount of power and authority. But he perverted that power. Lucifer wanted to exalt himself above God... rather than "just" being the Angel of God.




If God is so good, then why did he create Satan?

Lucifer was created perfect in all his ways, but iniquity was found in him. It was not put there by God. Lucifer created it.
( this is found in Ezekiel 28:15 )

Like man, the angels were created perfect, and with a free will.

Satan was lifted up because of his beauty, he corrupted the wisdom by reason of his brightness (This is in Ezekiel 28:17)



Ezekiel 28:12 (KJV)


"Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty."
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."

This is not an earthly king, as the word "cherub" is only used in references to angels.

15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

The word "covering" is from the Hebrew word cakak, and means: to entwine, to fence in, cover over, protect, defend, hedge in, (source "The complete word study Old Testament")

Was Lucifer's job to protect the very earth he corrupted? Was this one of his duties that gave him so much pride?

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

0 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.



Question:
"Where does Satan and the fall fit into all of this? He must have been cast down before Adam and Eve were created because he was there to tempt Eve in the Garden? Was there, could there have been, a pre-Adamic age - and surly this would have been a catastrophic event?
Best regards
Amanda S. Q. 6/19/01

Answer:
Satan was cast out of heaven after Adam and Eve were created, because God said the Creation was still "very good" on day 6 after man had been created.

There was nothing and no one here before Adam and Eve. Read my page disproving the Gap Theory for more information.



Isaiah 14:12


"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Satan wanted to be God. The Bible tells us in 2nd Corinthians 4:4 that Satan has become the "god of this world". And Revelation 20:10 tells us that he will be eternally punished for it.


15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.


When Lucifer was cast out of Heaven, one third of all the angels were cast out with him. (Rev.12:4,9)

Lucifer became Satan, and the fallen angels became Demons.




Why didn't God just destroy Satan?

Because sin had entered the world, and into the very nature of man through Adams transgression, then for God to destroy Satan, he would also have had to destroy the man he loved. But God had a better way. A way of Redemption.


And Christ the Redeemer was on His way !


What does Satan look like? 

We've all seen pictures of Satan portrayed as a hoofed creature, red in color.. with little horns on his head.



But this description is not Biblical. The hoofed being we usually see is actually closer to that of "Pan" from Greek mythology.

Perhaps Satan wants this image of himself to be used, because of its absurdity. Knowing that the day would come when God and the Devil would both be dismissed as "mythical"

Revelation 12:3 speaks of the red horned dragon. This is not Satan himself, but a reference to him from where these physical attributes possibly originate.


Revelation 12:3 (KJV)
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
The Book of "Ezekiel" tells us what Lucifer really looked like before he sinned.

Lucifer was a being "of perfect beauty". He was covered in every precious stone. He had pendants and jewels of gold...

Lucifer was beautiful before he sinned. An expression of Gods own beauty and power. But like man, Lucifer's very nature changed when he sinned. His (Lucifer's) physical appearance may have as well.


When did Lucifer fall from Heaven? It was not before day 6 like many people believe (those who believe the "Gap Theory" wrongly claim this). The Bible tells us that Lucifer was in Eden (which was created on day 6) and was still without sin on that day.

Ezekiel 28:13 (KJV)


"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created."


In the literature of our society, Satan is almost always shown in robes of red. Some believe that the color of an angels robes are symbolic of their rank in heaven. I am unaware of a scripture to support this however.



There is a coming judgment of Satan and his angels.

< center> 2 Peter 2:4 (KJV)

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [the Greek word here is "tartarus"], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"

Jude 1:6 (KJV)

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."
In the day of judgment "...the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

John 17: (verify verse #) talks of the time of judgment, the prince of this world will be driven out.

Hell was not made for man. Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels. But those who do not receive Christ as their Lord and Savior will be sent to Hell, and have their part in the lake of fire.

Satan is "the god of this world" he " has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the Gospel of the Glory of Christ" ( 2 Corinthians 4;4)

Satan is a liar. The Bible tells us he is the father of all lies.


John 8:44 (KJV)
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

He will deceive man in any way he can. Some are deceived by the New Age Movement, others are deceived by Humanists, Evolutionary lies, etc.

Source: http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/lucifer.html

(http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/doc/images/images2/devil.gif)

[WhiteWings]

Satan - Our Enemy
Getting Started
In our last two lessons we learned how to develop a relationship with God. In this lesson we will study about Satan. Who is he? Is there really such a being? And if there is, has he existed from all eternity? Is he therefore another god, who is in conflict with Jehovah? We will answer these questions in this lesson.

There are many who believe that Satan doesn't exist, while others believe he has existed from eternity, a god, and enemy god in conflict with the true and living God.

1. Where did Jesus say Satan came from?
"And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven" (Luke 10:18).

Jesus told His followers that He saw Satan fall from heaven. When Satan and the Son of God first met in conflict, Christ was the commander of the heavenly host, and Satan, the leader of revolt in heaven, was cast out. It was in heaven that Satan first attempted to overthrow God's law. A vast number of the angels were seduced, but this apparent success resulted in defeat, separation from God, and banishment from heaven.

2. Why did Satan fall from heaven?
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit" (Isaiah 14:12-15).

In heaven Satan was called Lucifer, where he desired to be like God and above God. Once holy and undefiled, he stood in the presence of the great Creator. He was full of wisdom and beauty and little by little he indulged the desire for self-exaltation. Not content with his position, he coveted the homage due to the Creator.

3. How did Satan come into being, and what was he like?
"Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" (Ezekiel 28:13).

Satan is a created being like ourselves. In Ezekiel 28:12 Satan is referred to as the king of Tyre. Just as the Lord was the real king behind the human ruler in Israel (1 Chronicles 29:23), so Satan was the real king behind the pagan kingdoms of Babylon and Tyre.

4. Since Satan was created as a holy and perfect angel, what change took place in him that caused him to be cast out of heaven?
"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. ... Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee" (Ezekiel 28:13, 14, 17).

Satan was perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him. He was one of the covering cherubs in the sanctuary in heaven, but he sinned. Becoming the first sinner, he in fact originated sin, though he had been the highest of all created beings.

5. Who were expelled from heaven with Satan?
"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. ... Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time" (Revelation 12:7-9, 12).

Opposition to the law of God had its beginning in the courts of heaven. Satan wanted to be first in the councils of heaven and equal with God. He began his work of rebellion with the angels under his command seeking to create a spirit of discontent, working with such deception that many of the angels were won to his side. This continued until there was open revolt and war in heaven. Satan and all the angels who sympathized with him were cast out.

Full atrticle: http://www.projectrestore.com/bible_guides/someonecares/sc04.htm

[Paul Hazelwood]

I personally do not agree that lucifer is a proper reference to Satan.

[WhiteWings]

I personally do not agree that lucifer is a proper reference to Satan.

Mmm, I expected similar remarks. Luckily I didn't write those articles  :grin:
But still the verses answer partly what this thread is about.

Willie don't shoot the messenger  :Shoot:

[rosered]

I personally do not agree that lucifer is a proper reference to Satan.

Mmm, I expected similar remarks. Luckily I didn't write those articles  :grin:
But still the verses answer partly what this thread is about.

Willie don't shoot the messenger  :Shoot:

I found an article   that the King of Babylon was  King Nebuchadnezzar !!

   the  article  is called '' Lucifer of Nebuchadnezzar ?''

  and it was awesome !  I cannot put links up  for some reason ???
 

but it was by Chuck  Fisher  and  the name lucifer from luke light bearer/bringer 
was interesting stuff! looked into it before , but more clarity this time
  thanks a bunch  WW and all for this   thread lots of things
  to consider...

  personally I agree with   both  Willie on the Lake of Fire 
anbd Pnuema   as this place [the void earth] us lol our bodies  being the  grave / hell

  I just  see it as  first  place being the below state  [as one dead] spirit
and than rising up only to fall /fail in   from grace of God
  and be cast into the lake of fire  / second death  /trials  the soul state to me /tested    ever look into   the Touchstone ?   Jasper Stone   to me it is Jesus Christ

   the second death GODS CHILDREN / MESSENGERS  they are not  harmed by it !!   Isaiah  28 I think ?  yes  it is !!! and   here   Hear, ye [that are] far off, what I have done; and, ye [that are] near, acknowledge my might. Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?     
  I saw most of this when doing a study on the White stone and new name  in Rev.    Greek for G5586  to handle feel touch !!!![  touchstone ? maybe {}}}}JESUS CHRIST IS THAT CHEIF HEAD CORNER STONE !!

psēlaphaō

1) to handle, touch and feel

2) metaph. mentally to seek after tokens of a person or a thing

  the Touchstone   touch·stone      /ˈtʌtʃˌstoʊn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[tuhch-stohn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a test or criterion for the qualities of a thing. 
2. a black siliceous stone formerly used to test the purity of gold and silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal. 


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[Origin: 1475–85; touch + stone]


—Synonyms 1. standard, measure, model, pattern.touch·stone      (tŭch'stōn')  Pronunciation Key 
n.   
A hard black stone, such as jasper or basalt, formerly used to test the quality of gold or silver by comparing the streak left on the stone by one of these metals with that of a standard alloy.
An excellent quality or example that is used to test the excellence or genuineness of others: "the qualities of courage and vision that are the touchstones of leadership" (Henry A. Kissinger). See Synonyms at standard.
touchstone 

1481, from touch (v.) + stone. Black quartz, used for testing the quality of gold and silver alloys by the color of the streak made by rubbing them on it. Fig. sense is from 1533.
touchstone

noun
a basis for comparison; a reference point against which other things can be evaluated; "the schools comply with federal standards"; "they set the measure for all subsequent work" [syn: standard]  . something considered by an authority or by general consent as a basis of comparison; an approved model. 
2. an object that is regarded as the usual or most common size or form of its kind: We stock the deluxe models as well as the standards. 
3. a rule or principle that is used as a basis for judgment: They tried to establish standards for a new philosophical approach. 
4. an average or normal requirement, quality, quantity, level, grade, etc.: His work this week hasn't been up to his usual standard. 
5. standards, those morals, ethics, habits, etc., established by authority, custom, or an individual as acceptable: He tried to live up to his father's standards. 
6. a grade of beef immediately below good. 
7. the authorized exemplar of a unit of weight or measure. 
8. a certain commodity in or by which a basic monetary unit is stated. Compare gold standard, silver standard, bimetallism, monometallism. 
9. the legally established content of full-weight coins. 
10. the prescribed degree of fineness for gold or silver. 
11. British. a class or grade in elementary schools. 
12. a musical piece of sufficiently enduring popularity to be made part of a permanent repertoire, esp. a popular song. 
13. a flag indicating the presence of a sovereign or public official. 
14. a flag, emblematic figure, or other object raised on a pole to indicate the rallying point of an army, fleet, etc. 
15. Military. a. any of various military or naval flags. 
b. the colors of a mounted unit. 
c. (initial capital letter) a U.S. Navy radar-guided surface-to-air missile with a range of 10–30 miles (16–48 km). 

16. Heraldry. a long, tapering flag or ensign, as of a monarch or a nation. 
17. something that stands or is placed upright. 
18. a long candlestick or candelabrum used in a church. 
19. an upright support or supporting part. 
20. Armor. a standing collar of mail. 
21. Horticulture. a plant trained or grafted to have a single, erect, treelike stem. 
22. Botany. a distinct petal, larger than the rest, of certain flowers; a vexillum. 
–adjective 23. serving as a basis of weight, measure, value, comparison, or judgment. 
24. of recognized excellence or established authority: a standard reference on medieval history. 
25. usual, common, or customary: Chairs are standard furniture in American households. 
26. manual; not electric or automatic: standard transmission. 
27. conforming in pronunciation, grammar, vocabulary, etc., to the usage of most educated native speakers, esp. those having prestige, and widely considered acceptable or correct: Standard American English; standard pronunciation. Compare nonstandard (def. 2). 
28. authorized or approved: The program was broadcast on the standard broadcast band. 


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[Origin: 1125–75; ME < OF, prob. < Frankish *standord (cf. G Standort standing-point), conformed to -ard -ard]


—Synonyms 1, 3. gauge, basis, pattern, guide. Standard, criterion refer to the basis for making a judgment. A standard is an authoritative principle or rule that usually implies a model or pattern for guidance, by comparison with which the quantity, excellence, correctness, etc., of other things may be determined: She could serve as the standard of good breeding. A criterion is a rule or principle used to judge the value, suitability, probability, etc., of something, without necessarily implying any comparison: Wealth is no criterion of a person's worth. stan·dard      (stān'dərd)  Pronunciation Key 
n.   
A flag, banner, or ensign, especially:
The ensign of a chief of state, nation, or city.
A long, tapering flag bearing heraldic devices distinctive of a person or corporation.
An emblem or flag of an army, raised on a pole to indicate the rallying point in battle.
The colors of a mounted or motorized military unit.
An acknowledged measure of comparison for quantitative or qualitative value; a criterion.
An object that under specified conditions defines, represents, or records the magnitude of a unit.
A degree or level of requirement, excellence, or attainment.
A requirement of moral conduct. Often used in the plural.
The large upper petal of the flower of a pea or related plant.
One of the narrow upright petals of an iris. Also called banner, vexillum.

An acknowledged measure of comparison for quantitative or qualitative value; a criterion.
An object that under specified conditions defines, represents, or records the magnitude of a unit.
A degree or level of requirement, excellence, or attainment.
A requirement of moral conduct. Often used in the plural.
The large upper petal of the flower of a pea or related plant.
One of the narrow upright petals of an iris. Also called banner, vexillum.
The set proportion by weight of gold or silver to alloy metal prescribed for use in coinage.
The commodity or commodities used to back a monetary system.
Something, such as a practice or a product, that is widely recognized or employed, especially because of its excellence.

A degree or level of requirement, excellence, or attainment.
A requirement of moral conduct. Often used in the plural.
The large upper petal of the flower of a pea or related plant.
One of the narrow upright petals of an iris. Also called banner, vexillum.
Chiefly British A grade level in elementary schools.
A pedestal, stand, or base.
Botany
The large upper petal of the flower of a pea or related plant.
One of the narrow upright petals of an iris. Also called banner, vexillum.
A shrub or small tree that through grafting or training has a single stem of limited height with a crown of leaves and flowers at its apex.
Music A composition that is continually used in repertoires.

adj.   
Serving as or conforming to a standard of measurement or value.
Widely recognized or employed as a model of authority or excellence: a standard reference work.
Acceptable but of less than top quality: a standard grade of beef.
Normal, familiar, or usual: the standard excuse.
Commonly used or supplied: standard car equipment.
Linguistics Conforming to established educated usage in speech or writing.


[Middle English, from Old French estandard, rallying place, probably from Frankish *standhard : *standan, to stand; see stā- in Indo-European roots + *hard, fast, hard; see kar- in Indo-European roots.]

now look up in the bible Banner / ensign and  Standard ! 
wow !!
  the  pure white  Voice  from above , that healing  ears to hear what the   ETERNAL  LIVING SPIRIT  IS SAYING !   you will be given a clean white /pure voice  as  clear waters from ABOVE !  your earth  no longer  swallowing the dragons flood
its not as exciting for   as it was for me when I saw ! and heard !   
ironically  its the same Stone / Mountain , that when  broke against scatters our  flesh / dust !!!serpents food   wow ! :mshock:   perhaps   simultaneously   ''at the same time ''   spiritual man   is gathered in Christ  and the carnal man is scattered abroad   just a thought
  God love ya!  rose

[WhiteWings]

Rose this link?: http://pelajus.com/lucifer.html
If Satan is or isn't Lucifer/.... isn't why I posted those articles.
It's the verses. That's the part everyone agrees upon.
Maybe I should replace all names with XYZ to keep teh thread on-topic  :laughing7:



Lucifer or Nebuchadnezzar?
by Chuck Fisher
Recently, I was challenged to a debate over the validity of the New International translation of the Bible, by a person who believes that the King James Bible is the only true word of God. (My Christianity must be showing through, as I am not using one of the terms I would like to use, given my opinion of KJOnly-ists.)

I was surprised when one of the first attacks that he made on the NIV was that the modern translations were giving the title of "Morning Star," Christ's title, to Satan. It seems that there is a New Age conspiracy to make Christ and Satan one, and the NIV is part of that conspiracy. This man pointed to Isa 14:12, which, in the King James says, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!" It seems that this brother, and many KJOnly cultists along with him, were upset that the new translations don't use the name "Lucifer" here. Instead, they say something else, and the NIV, the worst offender in the lot, has the text read this way: "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn!"

So, the question is asked, is there a conspiracy by New Agers to deify Satan, or did the NIV translators have valid reasons for omitting the name Lucifer in this verse? After doing my homework, I find that, surprise, Isaiah 14:12 is not a reference to Satan, and that Lucifer was not Satan's pre-fall name.

Translations
First off, let's see how some other versions, other than the NIV translate this phrase:

"How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn!" The New American Standard Bible.

"How you are fallen from heaven, O shining star, son of the morning!" The New Living Translation.

"How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn!" The Revised Standard Version

How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn!" The New Revised Standard Version

"How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn!" Young's Literal Translation.

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning!" American Standard (1901).

"King of Babylon, morning star, you have fallen from heaven," New Century Version

"King of Babylon, bright morning star, you have fallen from heaven!" The Good News Bible in Today's English Version

King of Babylon, Not Satan
Look at the last two citations, the New Century Version and the Good News Bible (TEV). Notice that they, both, start this verse addressing the King of Babylon. Could it be, that after all these years, some are claiming that Isa. 14:12 is not about Satan/Lucifer, but about someone else? In a word, yes. And this translation has great support down through the ages.

The Geneva Bible, 1549
In the Geneva Bible, published in 1549, they did use the word, "Lucifer":

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer*, son of the morning!

Please notice the asterisk, in that verse, behind the name of Lucifer. That is there because the translators of the Geneva Bible, 60 years before the King James (therefore not a part of any New Age plot) put an explanatory footnote here. Here is what they said about the word "Lucifer." "You who thought yourself most glorious and as it were placed in the heaven for the morning star that goes before the sun, is called Lucifer, to whom Nebuchadnezzar is compared."

Did you see that? These translators, 60 years before the King James, say that this verse is not about Satan, but Nebuchadnezzar. Admittedly, they do believe that Nebuchadnezzar is being compared to Lucifer, but they recognize that this verse, this Lucifer, is not Satan, but the King of Babylon.

Matthew Henry, 1706
Next stop, Matthew Henry, King of Commentators. If a minister doesn't have a Matthew Henry's Commentary in his pastoral library, then his ministerial library is sadly lacking. In 1706, in writing his commentary, Henry had this to say about Isaiah 14:12.

"The king of Babylon shone as brightly as the morning star, and fancied that wherever he came he brought day along with him; and has such an illustrious prince as this fallen, such a star become a clod of clay? Did ever any man fall from such a height of honour and power into such an abyss of shame and misery?" This has been commonly alluded to (and it is a mere allusion) to illustrate the fall of the angels, who were as morning stars (Job 38:7),"

Henry, considered one of the greatest of Biblical commentators, says that this refers to the king of Babylon, making no mention of Lucifer being Satan's first name. And, please note, yes, Henry does say that preachers have used this to allude to the fall of angels, but, "IT IS A MERE ALLUSION."

And, further note, please, that Henry does not say that the title morning star is reserved for Christ alone, but is the biblical term for angels, as well. The thinking of the KJO cultists runs along this line:

a. Christ is called the Morning Star in Rev. 22:16.
b. The Morning Star is Christ' title.
c. New translations translate Lucifer, in Isa. 14:12, as Morning Star.
d. New translations are trying to identify Christ with Lucifer.

But, as Matthew Henry pointed out, the term "morning star" is not exclusively Christ's title. Angels, Henry noted, were called "morning stars" in the book of Job. So much for the reasoning capability of KJO cultists.

John Wesley, 1754-1765
John Wesley, founder of Methodism, wrote in his Notes on the Bible, 1754-1765, this about Isaiah 14:12

"Lucifer - Which properly is a bright star, that ushers in the morning; but is here metaphorically taken for the mighty king of Babylon."

Wesley, not a New Ager, by any stretch of the imagination, tells us that this word mean a bright star, and is a metaphor for the king of Babylon.

Adam Clarke, 1760-1832,
In his Commentary on the Bible, Adam Clarke wrote this about "Lucifer."

"Verse 12. O Lucifer, [son of the morning] The Versions in general agree in this translation, and render kkyh heilel as signifying Lucifer, the morning star, whether Jupiter or Venus; as these are both bringers of the morning light, or morning stars, annually in their turn. And although the context speaks explicitly concerning Nebuchadnezzar, yet this has been, I know not why, applied to the chief of the fallen angels, who is most incongruously denominated Lucifer, (the bringer of light!) an epithet as common to him as those of Satan and Devil. That the Holy Spirit by his prophets should call this arch-enemy of God and man the light-bringer, would be strange indeed. But the truth is, the text speaks nothing at all concerning Satan nor his fall, nor the occasion of that fall, which many divines have with great confidence deduced from this text. O how necessary it is to understand the literal meaning of Scripture, that preposterous comments may be prevented! Besides, I doubt much whether our translation be correct. llqh heilel, which we translate Lucifer, comes from llq yalal, yell, howl, or shriek, and should be translated, "Howl, son of the morning;" and so the Syriac has understood it; and for this meaning Michaelis contends"

Clarke does not beat around the bush. As he puts it, "the truth is, the text speaks nothing at all concerning Satan nor his fall, nor the occasion of that fall, which many divines have with great confidence deduced from this text." To Clarke, the idea that the Holy Spirit would give the name of Light-Bringer to Satan is both "strange" and "preposterous."

Smith's Bible Dictionary, 1860
Smith's Bible Dictionary, 1860, has this reference for Lucifer:

"(light-bearer ), found in (Isaiah 14:12) coupled with the epithet "son of the morning," clearly signifies a "bright star," and probably what we call the morning star. In this passage it is a symbolical representation of the king of Babylon in his splendor and in his fall. ITS APPLICATION, FROM ST. JEROME DOWNWARD, TO SATAN IN HIS FALL FROM HEAVEN arises probably from the fact that the Babylonian empire is in Scripture represented as the type of tyrannical and self idolizing power, and especially connected with the empire of the Evil One in the Apocalypse."

(I placed one section of this quote in caps, to highlight it, the statement that "St." Jerome, the translator of the Latin Vulgate bible, is the source of the belief that Lucifer is Satan's pre-Fall name. I discuss Jerome as the source of the idea that Lucifer was Satan's name, and that it was foreign to the writers of the Bible, below.)

This venerable bible dictionary tells us what others before him have said, that the Hebrew word that the King James translates as "Lucifer" is actually referring to the Morning Star, Venus, which is seen in the sky at dawn. Smith tells us, like all the others above, that this is a reference to the king of Babylon, and further tells us that the idea of the word "Lucifer" referring to Satan comes from the Catholic writer, Jerome.

Jamieson, Faussett and Brown, 1871
Another of the standards in biblical commentary, Jamieson, Faussett and Brown, 1871, wrote this about the passage in Isaiah 14:12-15.

"THE JEWS ADDRESS HIM AGAIN AS A FALLEN ONCE-BRIGHT STAR.
The language is so framed as to apply to the Babylonian king primarily, and at the same time to shadow forth through him, the great final enemy, the man of sin, Antichrist, of Daniel, St. Paul, and St. John; he alone shall fulfil exhaustively all the lineaments here given."

and

"Lucifer--"day star." A title truly belonging to Christ (Revelation 22:16), "the bright and morning star," and therefore hereafter to be assumed by Antichrist. "

Did you see that? JFB says that this refers to, primarily, to Nebuchadnezzar, but can be seen to apply to, not Satan, but Anti-Christ. An interesting interpretation, especially when they bolster the interpretation with the statement that the title "Day Star" belongs to Christ, and will be assumed by the anti-Christ. But it is still just an interpretation. What is not in doubt, is that this is another commentator, another commentary, that says that Isa. 14:12 does NOT refer to Satan, but to the king of Babylon.

George Easton (1823-1894)
This is what Easton's Bible Dictionary says about Lucifer:

"brilliant star, a title given to the king of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12) to denote his glory. "

Another reference tool saying that this is Nebuchadnezzar, and not Satan.

Orville Nave, early 1900's
Nave's Topical Bible (early 1900's) has this entry for Lucifer:

"Nebuchadnezzar called by this name"

Source for Lucifer as Satan
I did find another translation translation of the Bible that did agree with the King James reading, of using the name Lucifer, in this verse:

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning? how art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations?" The Douay-Rheims Bible

Is there a good reason why the Roman Catholic Douay Bible puts the name Lucifer in here, when all of the newer translations carry the idea of the morning star? Yes. In fact, the name Lucifer is directly traceable to a Catholic priest, the translator of the Bible in Latin, Jerome.

As noted in Smith's Bible Dictionary, above, the idea that the Pre-Adamic name of Satan was Lucifer dates from the time of Jerome, the translator of the Bible from Hebrew and Greek into Latin. The word, in the Hebrew, that is translated "Lucifer" by the King James and the Douay is heylel, and which means "shining one." In his excellent on-line article, Brian Tegart, says this about Jerome as the source of the name, "Lucifer."

The use of "Lucifer" appears to have originated from the Latin Vulgate. The Vulgate was produced by Jerome (c. 347-420) by translating available Greek and Hebrew manuscripts into Latin. It was started in approximately 382 A.D. and was completed in approximately 405 A.D. It was the scriptures used by the Catholic Church for nearly 1000 years....It would seem that Jerome understood the meaning of the Hebrew word heylel, and translated it into "lucifer", the Latin word meaning "light bearer" (from the Latin lux "light" and ferre "to bear or bring."). Because many people thought this passage was referring to Satan, people began to think of the term of "lucifer" as a proper name "Lucifer". However, this is not what "lucifer" meant. "lucifer", at the time of the Vulgate and even at the time of the KJV translation, meant "morning star" or "day star" in reference to Venus. Even though Jerome himself (and others before him) thought the passage was referring to Satan, he did not use the word "lucifer" to mean "Satan" - his view that the passage was referring to Satan was purely an interpretational issue of the entire passage - the term "lucifer" was not used to indicate Satan in any way.
Isaiah 14:12, Job 38:7 & Revelation 22:16
Will The Real "morning star" Please Stand Up...
http://www.tegart.com/brian/bible/kjvonly/isa14_12.html

Conclusion
What does this mean, then, for the teaching that Lucifer was Satan's Pre-Fall name? After all, it is a teaching that all of us have heard in church. From pastors, from traveling evangelists, from Sunday School teachers, from radio teachers and televangelists. It is a 'truth,' it is something that we all know to be true. However, after looking at different translations, not created by New Agers, and after looking at writings of such non-New Agers as John Wesley, Adam Clarke, Matthew Henry, etc., we can see quite clearly that this teaching is not biblical. True, we have aphorisms in our language, like "He's as proud as Lucifer," which refer to this teaching, but that doesn't mean the teaching is true.

What is our obligation, in face of this? To give up a flawed teaching, to admit that what we have been told by those who have gone before us was wrong, and go to the Bible to seek the truth of the passage.

And, to ignore the ignorant musings of troglodytes who have lost another club with which to wale away at new translations of the Scriptures.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi WW...  :cloud9:

Thanks for TOPIC discussion... I will give an OVERALL answer below to this offering (instead of responding to all the articles you have pasted here)...  :Sparkletooth:

Did HOLY ANGELS ever "Fall"?

Ok, Willie I'll try to post on topic this time.
I searched a bit for you and I just copy and past it here. It looks like sensible information.
If you consider this off-topic too just ask one of the crew to deleted the messages. No problem for me!
If the articles are of any use to you I can probably dig up some more.


Question: "How, why, and when did Satan fall from heaven?"

Answer: Satan's fall from heaven is described in Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:12-18. While these two passages are referring specifically to the king of Babylon and the king of Tyre, they also reference the spiritual power that was behind those kings - Satan. These passages describe why Satan fell, but they do not specifically say when the fall occurred. What we do know is this: the angels were created before the earth (Job 38:4-7) Satan fell before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden (Genesis 3:1-14) Satan's fall, therefore, must have occurred somewhere after the time the angels were created and before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Whether Satan's fall occurred a few minutes, hours, or days before he tempted Adam and Eve in the garden, Scripture does not specifically say.

The book of Job tells us that, for a time at least, Satan still had access to heaven and to the throne of God. "One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. The LORD said to Satan, 'Where have you come from?' Satan answered the LORD, 'From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it'" (Job 1:6-7). Apparently at that time, Satan was still moving freely between heaven and earth, speaking to God directly and answering for his activities. At what point God discontinued this access is unknown.

Why did Satan fall from Heaven? Satan fell because of pride. He desired to be God, not to be a servant of God. Notice the many "I will..." statements in Isaiah 14:12-15. Ezekiel 28:12-15 describes Satan as an exceedingly beautiful angel. Satan was likely the highest of all angels, the most beautiful of all of God's creations, but he was not content in his position. Instead, Satan desired to be God, to essentially "kick God off His throne" and take over the rule of the universe. Satan wanted to be God, and interestingly enough, that is what Satan tempted Adam and Eve with in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:1-5). How did Satan fall from Heaven? Actually, a fall is not an accurate description. It would be far more accurate to say that God cast Satan out of Heaven (Isaiah 14:15; Ezekiel 28:16-17).
Source: http://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-fall.html

The biggest problem with these type of traditional perceptions ( I say "traditional" at the risk of riling our brother Scott,  :mshock: ...but this is common -- handed down teaching in most all churches) ...is that "satan" fell with no EXTERNAL prompting... No scenario is depicted where the TREE of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL was accessed by satan (which is required in order for EVIL ...OR... GOOD, to be known), ...nor any of the other "demons/angels" which supposedly "fell" with satan...  No WARNING instruction noted BY GOD to these angels, ...nothing...

Without taking a bite of this tree, how would "satan" (or any of the other angels which supposedly "fell" with him)  KNOW his "looks were GOOD"?

It further subliminally proposes that in GOD's "manufacturing process" of this (supposed) "being",  ...that somehow, a flaw was manifest in the works, which in itself,  denies the PERFECTION of the workings of GOD... and thereby casts doubt on all other workings of GOD...

Above, it says that satan fell because of pride... from whence did this KNOWLEDGE emerge that enabled him to KNOW or percieve "GOOD"? 

Did he have too many mirrors in his house?  :laughing7:

What about CHRIST?  He is getting the CHIEF office from GOD, will He too fall to His BEAUTY and PRIDE which supposedly did in old "satan" (or "lucifer" - if you prefer)?  What is to keep this SCENARIO from repeating itself?

Here you have "lucifer"... extremely beautiful and powerful... but those things end up INEXPLICABLY, CORRUPTING him!   What shall happen to JESUS?  For within the KINGDOM of GOD, ...He is destined for MUCH MORE than ANY ANGEL!

To deny this to be possible (CHRIST falling as did "lucifer" because of power and beauty), ...as one adopts the above thinking, is quite hypocritical and idealistic as well as UNREALISTIC...

What is to keep PRIDE from creeping into CHRIST?  It supposedly ALREADY did so to the MOST powerful and beautiful ANGEL?  :dontknow:

I know this is distasteful to consider, but it must be considered by those who believe the above (hoo-ha) as THE truth... (I do not believe the above is anything but a LIE, ...therefore, I maintain CHRIST shall NEVER  have any such problem)

Another issue is that once this IMPERFECTION occured in "satan", that a vast number of OTHER "ANGELS" of which Scripture give NO ACCOUNT of them "over esteeming" themselves, ...FELL as WELL! ...(the supposed 1/3 of Heavens Angels - which composes the "demons" which supposedly infest our world)

Why is there no mention of "their fall" and the processes of that "fall"? ...and how did an IMPERFECT angel - "satan" have more CONVINCING power than did GOD, to persuade this vast number to REBEL ...with Him?  Scripture is SILENT of such things... It also is silent in noting the potential beauty and power these also held... for they MUST needs be very powerful, in order to wage WAR against the other 2/3 of the ANGELS + GOD!

The articles which you have pasted here, are all commonly known in the "church" and are followed and endorsed by those sheep within the walls of the "church" as truth...  :sigh:

Every church which believes there are "fallen angels" (which is literally ALL of them)  produce these Scriptures as the verfication of that "fall"...

The bottom line is this... If HEAVEN is a PERFECT place... and is ETERNAL... and GOD, in His PERFECT and ALMIGHTY ability, brought forth "angelic beings" which OPPOSED Him... then how or what is to prevent SIMILAR activity in ETERNITY?

If angels in fact "fell"... and it was PURPOSED by GOD (in His creation of them - IF they were created)... then HOW did it happen without the TREE of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL?  For it takes "eating" its fruit to gain the REBELLION and DISOBEDIENCE of SIN...

And if it were PURPOSED by GOD that His ANGELS fall... why repeat this (falling from grace and perfection) with MAN? 

Why was not satan and "his" cronies -- cast upon the earth or wherever by GOD... and then GOD send CHRIST as an ANGEL (not MAN), to SAVE them from this problem?

CHRIST came as a MAN, not an ANGEL... Lived as a MAN, ...died as a MAN, and is noted as (temporarily) LOWER than are ANGELS... for the suffering of DEATH to SAVE MAN... tasting DEATH for EVERY MAN (Heb 2:9), ...NOT... ANGELS...  :dontknow:

...peaCe
...willieH  :cloud9:

[Molly]

The biggest problem with these type of traditional perceptions ( I say "traditional" at the risk of riling our brother Scott,   ...but this is common -- handed down teaching in most all churches) ...is that "satan" fell with no EXTERNAL prompting... No scenario is depicted where the TREE of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL was accessed by satan (which is required in order for EVIL ...OR... GOOD, to be known), ...nor any of the other "demons/angels" which supposedly "fell" with satan...  No WARNING instruction noted BY GOD to these angels, ...nothing...

Without taking a bite of this tree, how would "satan" (or any of the other angels which supposedly "fell" with him)  KNOW his "looks were GOOD"?

Didn't Eve fall from grace the minute she believed the lie?  She fell before she ate from the tree.  She was deceived.

[rosered]

Rose this link?: http://pelajus.com/lucifer.html
If Satan is or isn't Lucifer/.... isn't why I posted those articles.
It's the verses. That's the part everyone agrees upon.
Maybe I should replace all names with XYZ to keep teh thread on-topic  :laughing7:

LOL yeppers  !!  you said  is satan lucifer
isn't why I posted those articles ,   me   I say

;I know bro
 I am all over the place   !!  but in those verses   I was reading and looking  on the Web  and found that accidently  :mshock:
 
Sorry I got off topic  :icon_jokercolor:   XYZ     FORGIVE ME  :winkgrin:
It started a study for me
  " In those verses "'  and we can all agree on something lol hee hee  

  what is prepared for the devil and his angels/messengers     purging ...lake of fire
 Isaiah 33  it is all the false  teachers  and liars  etc , the very  stink of death ..   below the earthly sensual and devilish  thinking/speaking  to me .. why because the fail /fall  from giving God the glory  every time .. :(   look up glory  wow!

 the LOF IS WHERE the purging begins verb, purged, purg·ing, noun
–verb (used with object) 1. to rid of whatever is impure or undesirable; cleanse; purify.  
2. to rid, clear, or free (usually fol. by of or from): to purge a political party of disloyal members.  
3. to clear of imputed guilt or ritual uncleanliness.  
4. to clear away or wipe out legally (an offense, accusation, etc.) by atonement or other suitable action.  
5. to remove by cleansing or purifying (often fol. by away, off, or out).  
6. to clear or empty (the bowels) by causing evacuation.  
7. to cause evacuation of the bowels of (a person).  
8. to put to death or otherwise eliminate (undesirable or unwanted members) from a political organization, government, nation, etc.  
9. Metallurgy. a. to drive off (undesirable gases) from a furnace or stove.  
b. to free (a furnace or stove) of undesirable gases.  

–verb (used without object) 10. to become cleansed or purified.  
11. to undergo or cause purging of the bowels.  
–noun 12. the act or process of purging.  
13. the removal or elimination of members of a political organization, government, nation, etc., who are considered disloyal or otherwise undesirable.  
14. something that purges, as a purgative medicine or dose.  


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1250–1300; (v.) ME purgen < OF purg(i)er < L pūrgāre to cleanse; (n.) ME < OF, deriv. of the v.]

—Related forms
purge·a·ble, adjective
purger, noun


—Synonyms 8. oust, liquidate, extirpate.

  in   #9     I see them gases are foul spirits  in the furnace of affiction / firey trials  evaporating ,lol   see what I mean ?

 I compare  things  to every scripture , lots of differnt  comparisions , that was just one example   hee hee

   WhiteWings , just ignore me bro , most do  :msealed:     you see I stuggle more than I should  with  all of the  Bible stuff and communicating to others  with it ........  I see so differently than most do

  a "strange one" indeed  
   God love ya ,, rose  


ps I looked up Glory for anyone  here to look into Glory, GloriousA-1 Noun Strong's Number: 1391 Greek: doxa
:dontknow:. It is used (1) (a) of the nature and acts of God in self-manifestation, i.e., what He essentially is and does, as exhibited in whatever way he reveals Himself in these respects, and particularly in the person of Christ, in whom essentially His "glory" has ever shone forth and ever will do, Jhn 17:5,24; Hbr 1:3; it was exhibited in the character and acts of Christ in the days of His flesh, Jhn 1:14; Jhn 2:11; at Cana both His grace and His power were manifested, and these constituted His "glory;" so also in the resurrection of Lazarus, Jhn 11:4,40; the "glory" of God was exhibited in the resurrection of Christ, Rom 6:4, and in His ascension and exaltation, 1Pe 1:21, likewise on the Mount of Transfiguration, 2Pe 1:17. In Rom 1:23 His "everlasting power and Divinity" are spoken of as His "glory," i.e., His attributes and power as revealed through creation; in Rom 3:23 the word denotes the manifested perfection of His character, especially His righteousness, of which all men fall short; in Col 1:11 "the might of His glory" signifies the might which is characteristic of His "glory;" in Eph 1:6,12,14, "the praise of the glory of His grace" and "the praise of His glory" signify the due acknowledgement of the exhibition of His attributes and ways; in Eph 1:17, "the Father of glory" describes Him as the source from whom all Divine splendor and perfection proceed in their manifestation, and to whom they belong; (b) of the character and ways of God as exhibited through Christ to and through believers, 2Cr 3:18; 4:6; (c) of the state of blessedness into which believers are to enter hereafter through being brought into the likeness of Christ, e.g., Rom 8:18,21; Phl 3:21 (RV, "the body of His glory"); 1Pe 5:1,10; Rev 21:11; (d) brightness or splendor, (1) supernatural, emanating from God (as in the shekinah "glory," in the pillar of cloud and in the Holy of Holies, e.g., Exd 16:10; 25:22), Luk 2:9; Act 22:11; Rom 9:4; 2Cr 3:7; Jam 2:1; in Tts 2:13 it is used of Christ's return "the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ" (RV); cp. Phl 3:21, above; (2) natural, as of the heavenly bodies, 1Cr 15:40,41; (II) of good reputation, praise, honor, Luk 14:10 (RV, "glory," for AV, "worship"); Jhn 5:41 (RV, "glory," for AV, "honor"); Jhn 7:18; 8:50; 12:43 (RV, "glory," for AV, "praise"); 2Cr 6:8 (RV, "glory," for AV "honor"); Phl 3:19; Hbr 3:3; in 1Cr 11:7, of man as representing the authority of God, and of woman as rendering conspicuous the authority of man; in 1Th 2:6, "glory" probably stands, by metonymy, for material gifts, an honorarium, since in human estimation "glory" is usually expressed in things material. The word is used in ascriptions of praise to God, e.g., Luk 17:18; Jhn 9:24, RV, "glory" (AV, "praise"); Act 12:23; as in doxologies (lit., "glory-words"), e.g., Luk 2:14; Rom 11:36; 16:27; Gal 1:5; Rev 1:6. See DIGNITY, HONOR, PRAISE, WORSHIP. A-2 Noun Strong's Number: 2811 Greek: kleos
"good report, fame, renown," is used in 1Pe 2:20. The word is derived from a root signifying "hearing;" hence, the meaning "reputation." Note: In 2Cr 3:11 the phrase dia doxes, "through (i.e., by means of) glory," is rendered "with glory" in the RV (AV, "glorious"); in the same verse en doxe, "in glory" (RV), i.e., "accompanied by glory," is rendered "glorious" in the AV. The first is said of the ministration of the Law, the second of that of the Gospel. B-1 Adjective Strong's Number: 1741 Greek: endoxos
signifies (a) "held in honor" (en, "in," doxa, "honor"), "of high repute," 1Cr 4:10, RV, "have glory" (AV, "are honorable"); (b) "splendid, glorious," said of apparel, Luk 7:25, "gorgeously;" of the works of Christ, 13:17; of the Church, Eph 5:27. See GORGEOUSLY, HONORABLE.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Scott...  :cloud9:

Sorry Scott... but your TV program isn't sufficient grounds to found your MYTH, & by the way:

Send me a tape of your TV program (which founds your Egyptian Myth), then MAYBE, I will respond... the above are just YOUR WORDS... and I have found your words a bit on the edge, here & there...

Hi Willie I was going to respond to your post when I came across this, bro that very close to saying I am falsifying words, basically close to calling me a liar, you probably did not mean it that why, but it close enough that I will now end my participation on this thread, neither of us will change our views bro, only God can do that for us, so I'll leave you to yours.

Plus I would like to get back to my rebuttal to Matt as I have been remiss because I am posting on to many other threads.

God bless bro.

Never have and never will call you a LIAR brother... I believe that you BELIEVE what you BELIEVE... and that you ALWAYS post that BELIEF in earnest of a sincere heart...

My remark "on the edge" was meant to say that I believe you are teetering close to the TRUTH on this matter, but a few elements you propose remain veiled... thus "on the edge"

I was just trying to make the point that TV programs are NOT to be depended upon in any way as a basis for TRUTH... especially considering SPIRITUAL matters...

I look upon you as a very learned, dedicated lover of GOD, and my brother... When I call you BRO, it is not just some tag I throw around, without meaning...

I Don't know how you view me, but I truly see you as my DEAR and RESPECTED, brother!

...peaCe
...willieH  :cloud9:

[rosered]

 
  Hi Willie
  I do see alot of what you say bro 
and Pneuma   too  and you know a sense of humor  is great! 

  I love ya both 
for differnt  reasons lol :laughing7:  I really get to considering

the  verses at hand ...
  and well WW   is  a bud  after me own heart ... hee hee
  God love ya all

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Molly... :hithere:

The biggest problem with these type of traditional perceptions ( I say "traditional" at the risk of riling our brother Scott,   ...but this is common -- handed down teaching in most all churches) ...is that "satan" fell with no EXTERNAL prompting... No scenario is depicted where the TREE of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL was accessed by satan (which is required in order for EVIL ...OR... GOOD, to be known), ...nor any of the other "demons/angels" which supposedly "fell" with satan...  No WARNING instruction noted BY GOD to these angels, ...nothing...

Without taking a bite of this tree, how would "satan" (or any of the other angels which supposedly "fell" with him)  KNOW his "looks were GOOD"?

Didn't Eve fall from grace the minute she believed the lie?  She fell before she ate from the tree.  She was deceived.

But the Scenario of the TREE was THERE and the COMMAND given that she not eat of it...

I agree that her sin actually took place within her doubt because "whatsoever is not of FAITH, is SIN"... AND her DISBELIEF was actually SIN... however... it was not until ADAM ATE, that their NAKEDNESS was revealed... I believe Eve, though she doubted and ate, still did not KNOW GOOD and EVIL, until ADAM ate, as noted in Genesis (Gen 3:6 ..and.. 7)

So the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil, ...was NOT REVEALED, until the MAN - ADAM  actually ATE the fruit...

Gen 6, notes Her eating, but NO KNOWLEDGE appeared... it wasnt until ADAM ate, that BOTH their eyes were opened... (Gen 3:7)

This however, doesn't address the problem with "satan" Molly... WHO or WHAT, TEMPTED "satan"?  Scripture states that GOD tempts no MAN, ...but does He tempt ANGELS?  I think NOT!  :thumbdown:

"satan" could not KNOW his (It's) "looks" were GOOD, for that KNOWLEDGE (good & evil) was KNOWN only to GOD...  And if he (It) did not KNOW his (it's) "looks" were GOOD, then "PRIDE" would have no platform from which to emerge...

It is VERY interesting that we see EVERYONES FACE, but our OWN...  :dontknow:  How could "satan" therefore, be getting all puffed up about something which he could not even see...  :dontknow:

He could not KNOW GOOD or EVIL, for He had not accessed the TREE (If satan DID this, it is not mentioned, and if it is not mentioned, ...it cannot be assumed)

...peaCe
...willieH  :cloud9:

[rosered]

 

  well  Hi willie H .  I guess it goes back to the age old question
  what is the origin of satan  than ? 
   because the origin of good and evil seem to be in that Tree ? :sigh:


Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

--

Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: [is] not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

  to me it seems its all  a metaphorical  fire /adversarial / anger resist  issue ??

first mentioned  here as adversary    , is it a type of wisdom /knowledge ?


Num 22:22  And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants [were] with him.   

  I just dont know!! ???  , please  wave that little red cap my way  bro  lol
    God love ya

[Molly]

So the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil, ...was NOT REVEALED, until the MAN - ADAM  actually ATE the fruit...

The difference between Adam and Eve is that he had the breath of God, [Holy breath, Holy Spirit], and she did not.  She was flesh of his flesh, not spirit of his spirit.  Maybe such knowledge can only be known by spirit and not by flesh.  Paul tells us we are to learn to discern good from evil.

Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Discernment is done by spirit, not by flesh.


"discern"


G1253
διάκρισις
diakrisis
dee-ak'-ree-sis
From G1252; judicial estimation: - discern (-ing), disputation.


This discernment has to do with judgment.


G1252
διακρίνω
diakrinō
dee-ak-ree'-no
From G1223 and G2919; to separate thoroughly, that is, (literally and reflexively) to withdraw from, or (by implication) oppose; figuratively to discriminate (by implication decide), or (reflexively) hesitate: - contend, make (to) differ (-ence), discern, doubt, judge, be partial, stagger, waver.



1 Corinthians 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?


Genesis 1
4And God saw that the light was good (suitable, pleasant) and He approved it; and God separated the light from the darkness.

[Molly]

This however, doesn't address the problem with "satan" Molly... WHO or WHAT, TEMPTED "satan"?  Scripture states that GOD tempts no MAN, ...but does He tempt ANGELS?  I think NOT! 

"satan" could not KNOW his (It's) "looks" were GOOD, for that KNOWLEDGE (good & evil) was KNOWN only to GOD...  And if he (It) did not KNOW his (it's) "looks" were GOOD, then "PRIDE" would have no platform from which to emerge...

Satan is an evil spirit.  He is opposed to God and therefore, to God's glory, Man.



1 Corinthians 10:20
No, I am suggesting that what the pagans sacrifice they offer [in effect] to demons (to evil spiritual powers) and not to God [at all]. I do not want you to fellowship and be partners with diabolical spirits [by eating at their feasts].

[Molly]

1THEN [the guiding angel] showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at Joshua's right hand to be his adversary and to accuse him.

    2And the Lord said to Satan, The Lord rebuke you, O Satan! Even the Lord, Who [now and habitually] chooses Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this [returned captive Joshua] a brand plucked out of the fire?

    3Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and was standing before the Angel [of the Lord].

    4And He spoke to those who stood before Him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And He said to [Joshua], Behold, I have caused your iniquity to pass from you, and I will clothe you with rich apparel.

    5And I [Zechariah] said, Let them put a clean turban on his head. So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him with [rich] garments. And the Angel of the Lord stood by.

    6And the Angel of the Lord [solemnly and earnestly] protested and affirmed to Joshua, saying,

    7Thus says the Lord of hosts: If you will walk in My ways and keep My charge, then also you shall rule My house and have charge of My courts, and I will give you access [to My presence] and places to walk among these who stand here.

    8Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, you and your colleagues who [usually] sit before you--for they are men who are a sign or omen [types of what is to come]--for behold, I will bring forth My servant the Branch.

    9For behold, upon the stone which I have set before Joshua, upon that one stone are seven eyes or facets [the all-embracing providence of God and the sevenfold radiations of the Spirit of God]. Behold, I will carve upon it its inscription, says the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity and guilt of this land in a single day.

    10In that day, says the Lord of hosts, you shall invite each man his neighbor under his own vine and his own fig tree.

--Zech 3

[pneuma]

willieH: Hi Scott...  :cloud9:

Sorry Scott... but your TV program isn't sufficient grounds to found your MYTH, & by the way:

Send me a tape of your TV program (which founds your Egyptian Myth), then MAYBE, I will respond... the above are just YOUR WORDS... and I have found your words a bit on the edge, here & there...

Hi Willie I was going to respond to your post when I came across this, bro that very close to saying I am falsifying words, basically close to calling me a liar, you probably did not mean it that why, but it close enough that I will now end my participation on this thread, neither of us will change our views bro, only God can do that for us, so I'll leave you to yours.

Plus I would like to get back to my rebuttal to Matt as I have been remiss because I am posting on to many other threads.

God bless bro.

Never have and never will call you a LIAR brother... I believe that you BELIEVE what you BELIEVE... and that you ALWAYS post that BELIEF in earnest of a sincere heart...

My remark "on the edge" was meant to say that I believe you are teetering close to the TRUTH on this matter, but a few elements you propose remain veiled... thus "on the edge"

I was just trying to make the point that TV programs are NOT to be depended upon in any way as a basis for TRUTH... especially considering SPIRITUAL matters...

I look upon you as a very learned, dedicated lover of GOD, and my brother... When I call you BRO, it is not just some tag I throw around, without meaning...

I Don't know how you view me, but I truly see you as my DEAR and RESPECTED, brother!

...peaCe
...willieH  :cloud9:

Hi Willie, thanks for clearifying bro, like I said you probably did not mean it that way, but I like to clear any misconceptions up just in case.

I know we all say things that others take the wrong way, that one of the main problems with this boards, if we could sit in a room with each other and come to know the person personally I don't think these things would ever be an issue.

That said bro I am still going to bow out as I have not had a chance to add my next reply to Matt's rebuttal and would like to get it finished sometime this year :bigGrin:

P.S. I do see you as a brother Willie and I do respect you, doctrinal views should never be a reason to dislike or disrespect others.

God bless

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Molly...  :icon_king:

So the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil, ...was NOT REVEALED, until the MAN - ADAM  actually ATE the fruit...

The difference between Adam and Eve is that he had the breath of God, [Holy breath, Holy Spirit], and she did not.  She was flesh of his flesh, not spirit of his spirit.  Maybe such knowledge can only be known by spirit and not by flesh.  Paul tells us we are to learn to discern good from evil.

The "breath of life" is the breath (spirit of GOD) which RETURNS to GOD... only that which comes FROM God, ...RETURNS to Him...

So your definition of the "HOLY breath" above, is simply selective (to base your beliefs upon) and not objective (statements obviously made in Scripture which state the SPIRIT -- of each man -- RETURNS to GOD)...

I agree that such KNOWLEDGE can only be known in the SPIRIT and not the flesh... for it is a WAR between the two [good vs evil] as noted by Paul (Rom 7:23)... 

The "INNER MAN" of each man is CHRIST... to some, revealed to others VEILED... according to the ELECTION and PURPOSE of YHVH...

Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Discernment is done by spirit, not by flesh.

Again, the SPIRIT either LIVES (in CHRIST), or remains DEAD in the FLESH...

The KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, is known by ANYONE who SINS... for right and wrong is KNOWN by its practitioners...  Many unconverted souls KNOW and PRACTICE the difference between RIGHT and WRONG/GOOD and EVIL... but have no alligiance or gravitation to CHRIST...

This is displayed in LAWS made in various societies all over the Earth, which claim, these are based on morality and the common GOOD of that society... leaving out the WORD of GOD as the basis for those laws...

"discern"

G1253
διάκρισις
diakrisis
dee-ak'-ree-sis
From G1252; judicial estimation: - discern (-ing), disputation.

This discernment has to do with judgment.

G1252
διακρίνω
diakrinō
dee-ak-ree'-no
From G1223 and G2919; to separate thoroughly, that is, (literally and reflexively) to withdraw from, or (by implication) oppose; figuratively to discriminate (by implication decide), or (reflexively) hesitate: - contend, make (to) differ (-ence), discern, doubt, judge, be partial, stagger, waver.

And judgment made by unconverted souls is by what means Molly?  It is obvious that a decision is made by a given individual to participate IN or abstain FROM, EVIL... So that the word DISCERN is derived from a word which notes JUDGMENT, just makes common sense... for a "JUDGMENT" is made whether that judgment is a good or bad...

What is a "JUDGMENT" made in a court of law Molly?  Is it not a DECISION?  Does the JUDGE not "DECIDE" the outcome of the matter?  :dontknow:

If an unconverted person teaches his/her child that it is wrong to steal or kill... is that emerging from flesh?  :Chinscratch:  ...I think not... I believe CHRIST is in every man... and REVELATION of Him is done incrementally... that is to say, his influence (concerning GOOD and EVIL) is on EVERY MAN, but every man does not KNOW Him, nor believes and acknowledges Him as a being, ...or their Savior, ...or as an influence within them...

1 Corinthians 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

This is yet another spin of a "broken record"... Scripture claims ALL JUDGMENT is committed unto the SON, Molly (John 5:22)... If ALL JUDGMENT is done by the SON... what is left to JUDGE Molly?

And said JUDGMENT is seen and EVIDENTIAL in our submission to the SON, which by comparison is used by CHRIST to JUDGE those UNSUBMITTED...

WE do not do the JUDGING... GOD is the JUDGE of ALL... Any converted SINNER has no right to JUDGE another unconverted SINNER (John 8:7), for CONVERSION of the soul, is the WORK of GOD and is MANIFESTED by the WORD in the heart of the converted... 

Besides, ANGELIC beings are NOT being spoken of in this verse anyway... MEN have decieved other MEN, ...ANGELS had no part of it...

How could WE "judge" ANGELIC beings which "FELL" in a scenario and situation, in which we were not even a part? :mnah:

MEN (which are messengers/angels) are found either bearing the TRUTH, or bearing LIES to other men, ...and the TRUTH of the WORD shall be the JUDGE of those LIES...  For those LIES are EXPOSED, BY IT...

Let's face it Molly, ...you are going to believe contrary to me no matter what I say, and vice-versa, so why continue to post the same things?  :dontknow:

You believe "satan" is a being, ...I do NOT...
You believe angelic beings fell, ...I do NOT...
You believe YOU will JUDGE "fallen" angelic beings, ...I do NOT...

Must we needs repeat this over and over till everyone is sick to death of it?   :eeew:

...peaCe
...willieH  :cloud9:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi sister Rose! here comes the "cap" ... :hithere:

  well  Hi willie H .  I guess it goes back to the age old question
  what is the origin of satan  than ? 
   because the origin of good and evil seem to be in that Tree ? :sigh:

Of course the "tree" is symbolic and metaphorical... I mean there was an actual tree, but it was what the "tree" represented to Adam that was the point... and that POINT was one which only YHVH "knew" (Gen 3:22)

Guess there are many speculations as to who "US" is in this verse, but it is more than obvious to me that it is the FATHER who is GOD and His WORD which is an inseparable element of Himself as it is within "US" as well...

Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

The "right hand" symbolizes that which is the extension of the one spoken of... CHRIST was the EXPRESSED [projected into visible/audible terms] IMAGE of the invisible/silent YHVH God...  JESUS is referred to as being at the RIGHT HAND of GOD... which showed in His life, that He is ALWAYS IN HARMONY with YHVH...

ALL MEN, however have displayed that they are ADVERSE to God, as SINNERS... which notes "satan" [ADVERSITY] to be at the "RIGHT HAND" of MAN...

Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: [is] not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

  to me it seems its all  a metaphorical  fire /adversarial / anger resist  issue ??

first mentioned  here as adversary    , is it a type of wisdom /knowledge ?

Whether or not we wish to acknowledge it... GOOD is contrasted and established, concerning KNOWLEDGE, ...BY EVIL...  The LAW noted the standard of HOLY behavior... and STOOD accusing MAN, as each MAN has found a way to BREAK that standard of HOLY behavior... which is Biblically defined as SIN (missing the mark -- which in essence is -- MISbehavior)

Num 22:22  And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants [were] with him.   

  I just dont know!! ???  , please  wave that little red cap my way  bro  lol
    God love ya

The "ADVERSARY" of EVIL is GOOD sis... the angel of YHVH [noted as an ADVERSARY/"satan") stood in the way of that which Baalam was about to do...

The Hebrew word "satan" is not a NAME... it is a word which defines a POSITION... It appears in this verse translated ADVERSARY and is noted, describing the ANGEL of YHVH... and the "ANGELS"  positional place was to be ADVERSE to Baalam, to keep him from disobeying the instruction of YHVH...

For example:  If I am on the side of GOOD, then I am an ADVERSARY of EVIL...  InMyObservation this is the single greatest deception which plagues man...  EVIL is the ADVERSARY [satan] of GOOD, and vice-versa... satan is a descriptive positional adjective, NOT a NAME of a "fallen angel"...

"satan" is commonly known to be the "ADVERSARY" of GOOD and that which prompts man to DISOBEY the COMMAND of God which is GOOD... because it is a DEFINITIVE word, it can be used in its definitive position to mean, that GOOD is also, ...the "ADVERSARY" [satan]  of EVIL!

The most RELIGIOUSLY ingrained teaching of the Bible is that "satan" is a "being"... this "being" is proposed by RELIGION to be EVERYWHERE or present with EVERYONE...

Only GOD has this Charateristic of OMNIPRESENCE... but the ADVERSARY of GOD ...IS... present with EVERY MAN, in the NATURAL/Sinful state of Flesh which man finds himself, in the present... and Wherever GOD is (which is EVERYWHERE), so is found His ADVERSARY!

GOD is about addressing WORDS... His WORD as opposed to others... He addresses His WORD as His "Son" in whom He is well pleased... and further addresses His WORD as an extension and EXPRESSION of HIMSELF...

ANYTHING [mans will] which OPPOSES that WORD [GOD's will] is an ADVERSARY [satan] of that WORD... and that ..."ANYTHING"...  which OPPOSES that WORD, finds the WORD of GOD as ...ITS ADVERSARY [satan]... (am I conveying to you?  Hope so, its hard to put into words)

...peaCe
...willieH  :cloud9:

[Molly]

The "ADVERSARY" of EVIL is GOOD sis... the angel of YHVH [noted as an ADVERSARY/"satan") stood in the way of that which Baalam was about to do...

The Hebrew word "satan" is not a NAME... it is a word which defines a POSITION... It appears in this verse translated ADVERSARY and is noted, describing the ANGEL of YHVH... and the "ANGELS"  positional place was to be ADVERSE to Baalam, to keep him from disobeying the instruction of YHVH...

Actually, Satan is a proper name and is treated as such in the Bible.  Just because it has also a meaning, does not mean that it can not also be a name.  All the Hebrew names have a meaning--Abraham, Isaac, Jacob,  Michael, even Y'shuah--but they are also names of specific beings.

The Bible is not calling the Angel of the Lord 'Satan' --that is not his name, nor would anyone suggest it is.  In this case, the word is used in its meaning as adversary or opponent, not as a proper name as it is used in other cases.   Or do you wish to say that anyone good who opposes evil should also be called Satan?  In that case, we could even call Jesus, 'Satan.'


"Satan"
"adversary"

H7854
שׂטן
śâṭân
saw-tawn'
From H7853; an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch enemy of good: - adversary, Satan, withstand.

[rosered]

  from WILLIE  H .. :)

Quote
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: [is] not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

  to me it seems its all  a metaphorical  fire /adversarial / anger resist  issue ??

first mentioned  here as adversary    , is it a type of wisdom /knowledge ?


Whether or not we wish to acknowledge it... GOOD is contrasted and established, concerning KNOWLEDGE, ...BY EVIL...  The LAW noted the standard of HOLY behavior... and STOOD accusing MAN, as each MAN has found a way to BREAK that standard of HOLY behavior... which is Biblically defined as SIN (missing the mark -- which in essence is -- MISbehavior)


Quote
Num 22:22  And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants [were] with him.   

  I just dont know!! ???  , please  wave that little red cap my way  bro  lol
    God love ya

The "ADVERSARY" of EVIL is GOOD sis... the angel of YHVH [noted as an ADVERSARY/"satan") stood in the way of that which Baalam was about to do...

The Hebrew word "satan" is not a NAME... it is a word which defines a POSITION... It appears in this verse translated ADVERSARY and is noted, describing the ANGEL of YHVH... and the "ANGELS"  positional place was to be ADVERSE to Baalam, to keep him from disobeying the instruction of YHVH...

For example:  If I am on the side of GOOD, then I am an ADVERSARY of EVIL...  TInMyObservation this is the single greatest deception which plagues man...  EVIL is the ADVERSARY [satan] of GOOD, and vice-versa... satan is a descriptive positional adjective, NOT a NAME of a "fallen angel"...

"satan" is commonly known to be the "ADVERSARY" of GOOD and that which prompts man to DISOBEY the COMMAND of God which is GOOD... because it is a DEFINITIVE word, it can be used in its definitive position to mean, that GOOD is also, ...the "ADVERSARY" [satan]  of EVIL!

  Hi Willie   ,  BRAVO !  I got cha !!   believe  it or not .I DO  understand  what you are saying  ! 

and  it is because of some studying  back in the day lol ,,, some  light clicked on the ol  empty  noggin '   hee hee 
       I know what you are saying , and putting it into words will be challenging   and  for whats its worth ,  here I go .... 

I also will use some examples , they seem to work  too lol

   you  are right about the Law of moses , it being that tree of Knowledge of good and evil , maybe ?  my  thoughts have always been thats it !  , because   it is good and yet it is the ministration of death ,,, without mercy  you die under 2 or 3 witnesses  etc ..

  and  I will not go into great detail over that thought   ha ha! 

  but   the best way for me to explain my getting it  , was when seaching the word HEAVEN    ,  and this  is why I got it , seems the  Higher AIR [ BREATH ]    is less dense /thick more   clean / pure    , and that is where  I understand the  messengers/spirits  are getting their  life / breath  from

  where  the lower denser air   is where  the unclean
spirits  messengers are  getting theirs from
   Jesus  , the WORD gave life to the    folks  whom it was time to receive  [ fresh air / breath / life ] a good washing away   in them and the unclean spirits casting them out  from their  minds / hearts . bodies etc ...   Peter is a  prime  example when I read it for the  first time  was  blown away  , and had  to look into it   more  closely   
  calling Peter satan / adversary   and his    mindfulness   dwelling on the things of men [ lower air / dense  thought s] and not God , when Jesus was to be humiliated and killed and  raisied up the 3rd DAY    this was Gods will ,  desire and  adversarial   to what Gods intent was  though Jesus   cross /  upright POINT AT STAKE
I see  it more as I study , its not so easy to explain , but its stirring within us   this TRUTH/LIGHT     and it is more comforting  than the  fear / denseness of not knowing

  I will stop for now  .. i have to go  :(
  peace  and thanks  God love ya  rose

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Molly...  :cloud9:

The "ADVERSARY" of EVIL is GOOD sis... the angel of YHVH [noted as an ADVERSARY/"satan") stood in the way of that which Baalam was about to do...

The Hebrew word "satan" is not a NAME... it is a word which defines a POSITION... It appears in this verse translated ADVERSARY and is noted, describing the ANGEL of YHVH... and the "ANGELS"  positional place was to be ADVERSE to Baalam, to keep him from disobeying the instruction of YHVH...

Actually, Satan is a proper name and is treated as such in the Bible.

In Hebrew, punctuation and CAPITALIZATION are done and decided by TRANSLATORS... and the "treatment" given to the word "satan" concerning CAPS was done in the OPINION of those doing the TRANSLATION (just as 31 times SHEOL is translated GRAVE and 31 other times it is translated HELL)... 

It does NOT mean that "satan" is a NAME... any word could be considered a NAME with this thinking...  We could read the Bible and "translate" any given word we might feel is conducive to our doctrine as a NAME, by CAPTILIZING it...  :thumbdown:

Just because it has also a meaning, does not mean that it can not also be a name.  All the Hebrew names have a meaning--Abraham, Isaac, Jacob,  Michael, even Y'shuah--but they are also names of specific beings.

I don't disagree with this... however... Abraham, Issac, Jacob and Michael, even JESUS were MEN... and therefore SPECIFIC living "BEINGS" which had names...

The Bible is not calling the Angel of the Lord 'Satan' --that is not his name, nor would anyone suggest it is.

The context is NOT "calling" the ANGEL of YHVH by a name, it is naming ITS POSITION in proximity to Baalam... read for yourself Molly:

Numbers 22:22  ...and GOD's ANGER was kindled BECAUSE, he WENT... and the ANGEL of YHVH stood in the way as AN ADVERSARY [satan #H7854 - strongs] AGAINST him...

This is naming the ANGEL of YHVH as in OPPOSITION ["an ADVERSARY -- AGAINST him"] to Baalam doing other than he was instructed...

In this case, the word is used in its meaning as adversary or opponent, not as a proper name as it is used in other cases.   Or do you wish to say that anyone good who opposes evil should also be called Satan?  In that case, we could even call Jesus, 'Satan.'

This is SELECTIVE in observation... the word "satan" can be observed as ADVERSARY or ADVERSITY, ...EVERYWHERE it appears in the Bible...

Peter was so named BY JESUS, Molly... Do you think Peter is/was "satan"... for this command by JESUS "appears" that He was CALLING Peter "satan", not just naming him ADVERSE... 

I believe without reservation, that JESUS was NOT NAMING Peter "the devil"... He was just naming his words as in OPPOSITION of GOD...

What I am saying is that the POSITION of ADVERSITY or ADVERSARY, can be seen from either perspective...  Peter was NOT "satan", but his words were ADVERSE to the mission of CHRIST...

"Satan"
"adversary"

H7854
שׂטן
śâṭân
saw-tawn'
From H7853; an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch enemy of good: - adversary, Satan, withstand.

This word definition, as with all others, are still "TRANSLATION" and STILL hold given influences as to DEFINITION, which were held by those "translating"... 

When considering DEFINITION of this word, we must know that the MEANING of the word IS the DEFINITION, not the NAME which can be applied...

You noted that Hebrew names MEANT something... this had PURPOSE, for the MEANING of the name, was the description of the one NAMED... defining the POSITION that this person would take in life...

Word definitions take varying courses in time, for instance:  The ENGLISH word GAY once meant "happy"... but NOW is used to name or describe  HOMOSEXUALITY, ...or in some cases LAME...  That the word GAY now is used to mean HOMOSEXUAL, does not negate its prior meaning, nor shall future varying uses of this word establish that it does not mean HAPPY...  Words are devices of communication.  "satan" means ADVERSE or ADVERSARY for it communicates the postion of OPPOSITION.

That the definition for "satan" includes the ARCH ENEMY of GOOD doesn't change in any way, it's POSITIONAL meaning nor does it WRITE that meaning IN STONE as the only definition! 

It is defined by Hebrew translators as the arch enemy of GOOD - which simply means ADVERSE to GOOD, ...but also is shown in Biblical usage, to be the "ARCH" ENEMY of EVIL as displayed in Numbers 22:22 as it was applied to the ANGEL of YHVH...

You cannot "win" this difference we have, Molly... (and neither can I) for your belief is that it can be used as a proper NAME, and my belief states that ADVERSITY appears wherever the word "satan" is used in Scripture, ...be it ADVERSE to GOOD or to EVIL...

I say:  Let the FATHER use our OPPOSING beliefs in whatever way HE has chosen they should be used.  And in the end, we BOTH shall find out which of us was observing from the correct position...  :cloud9:

As I said many times before Molly... believe "satan" is a being if you like, I have no problem with it, and MANY in TRADITION side with that belief... YOUR BELIEFS are your affair... and far be it from me to wish to rob you of your beliefs...  It is pretty obvious that I stand against most of them... and FYI,  ...I will continue to do so...  :happygrin:

...peaCe
...willieH  :cloud9:

[rosered]

 

  Brother Willie ,
I am sorry I had to run off , My hubby now works the night shift and had to help him out , get ready and all  :HeartThrob:
By the Way I am glad you are doing much better after your surgery and all that went with it ..
  I am worried  about my old brother G [Graham] , right now . love that   fella  to pieces 
     ,,  I  left out alot of stuff lol , cause I was in a hurry ,

  love the little  red capped guy by the way  hee hee 
  Peace   bro ........ rose

[Molly]

but   the best way for me to explain my getting it  , was when seaching the word HEAVEN    ,  and this  is why I got it , seems the  Higher AIR [ BREATH ]    is less dense /thick more   clean / pure    , and that is where  I understand the  messengers/spirits  are getting their  life / breath  from

  where  the lower denser air   is where  the unclean
spirits  messengers are  getting theirs from
   Jesus  , the WORD gave life to the    folks  whom it was time to receive  [ fresh air / breath / life ] a good washing away   in them and the unclean spirits casting them out  from their  minds / hearts . bodies etc ... 

Isaiah 57:15
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy [Qâdôsh Qâdôsh]  ; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.


H6918
קדשׁ    קדושׁ
qâdôsh  qâdôsh
kaw-doshe', kaw-doshe'
From H6942; sacred (ceremonially or morally); (as noun) God (by eminence), an angel, a saint, a sanctuary: - holy (One), saint.



H6942
קדשׁ
qâdash
kaw-dash'
A primitive root; to be (causatively make, pronounce or observe as) clean (ceremonially or morally): - appoint, bid, consecrate, dedicate, defile, hallow, (be, keep) holy (-er, place), keep, prepare, proclaim, purify, sanctify (-ied one, self), X wholly.

[rosered]

but   the best way for me to explain my getting it  , was when seaching the word HEAVEN    ,  and this  is why I got it , seems the  Higher AIR [ BREATH ]    is less dense /thick more   clean / pure    , and that is where  I understand the  messengers/spirits  are getting their  life / breath  from

  where  the lower denser air   is where  the unclean
spirits  messengers are  getting theirs from
   Jesus  , the WORD gave life to the    folks  whom it was time to receive  [ fresh air / breath / life ] a good washing away   in them and the unclean spirits casting them out  from their  minds / hearts . bodies etc ... 

Isaiah 57:15
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy [Qâdôsh Qâdôsh]  ; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.


H6918
קדשׁ    קדושׁ
qâdôsh  qâdôsh
kaw-doshe', kaw-doshe'
From H6942; sacred (ceremonially or morally); (as noun) God (by eminence), an angel, a saint, a sanctuary: - holy (One), saint.



H6942
קדשׁ
qâdash
kaw-dash'
A primitive root; to be (causatively make, pronounce or observe as) clean (ceremonially or morally): - appoint, bid, consecrate, dedicate, defile, hallow, (be, keep) holy (-er, place), keep, prepare, proclaim, purify, sanctify (-ied one, self), X wholly.

Iam gratful you see/saw that Molly ,
its the tip of the Iceburg sis , so much in the study of heaven/ heavens / air  , I was amazed all over again ! especially in Daniel  and in the new testament   the correlating  of King Nebs   rise and fall/demise  ,and   humbled
   my studies are so ''formal'' I never put them up , because  a friend of mine said I get nothing out of them when I sent them to her  , please put it in your own words , she said  and I said,'' I cannot''  ....   
    this has been  a  frustration for me  for many years now 
  I am afraid   , I get off topic to easy and mess up threads 
  but I had no way to explain  satan/ adversary  without bringing up the  air /  heavens  , I DO see them connected   as well as dark/thick  clouds etc ..