The Revealing of Jesus Christ

[Taffy]

Now go back and read everything I had presented previously, to receive more answers to your questions.

No thanks...

for we are POLES APART.....

Craig ...the dross removed is the FLESH of all men....tis purified by the the Blood(silver) of Christ..i ya think silver is all mankind bro..well..i cant say anything more,...

whats also burnt in the LOF, is also the Flesh Craig....that to is purified......so all whats Left is us in HIM and mim In us....SPIRIT.


Forgive me Bro..im not going around the world with you to Cross the road....believe as you will
Peace

[Craig]

Jesus IS the lake of fire!

Don't jump the gun, there is a process in place and not everyone goes through every stage of this process.  Jesus is not the Lake of Fire, He is the Fire. All mankind goes through this fire. Just because all mankind goes through this fire does not mean that all mankind is going through the Lake of Fire. It is only those who did not trust in the Lord who will go through the Lake of Fire, that is Jesus and His servants of ministering flame.

2 Peter 1:5
For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge.

[Taffy]

.will not enter into it because the cross has already done what the lake of fire does.

Hi Nathan, I agree that the lake of fire does the same thing the cross does, thus the lake of fire is the cross. But what is the cross, it is not some stake Jesus was nailed to, the cross is the law, when the law manifests itself it shows itself as a double edged sword, it is ordained unto LIFE but is also a ministration of DEATH and our schoolmaster that leads to Christ.

There is only one way God has designed for man to come unto Him by purification and that way is by the cross which is the law. The law is spiritual an if man fulfills the law death has no power over them, but when man falls from grace they walk again under the law and are thus hurt of it.

Jesus IS the lake of fire!

Again I agree, because Jesus is the word/logos/debar, and the word/logos/debar are every commandment that comes from the mouth of God..

hey Scott give me simple speech everyday of the week....AMEN..... :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

pnuema, you stated
There is only one way God has designed for man to come unto Him by purification and that way is by the cross which is the law. The law is spiritual an if man fulfills the law death has no power over them, but when man falls from grace they walk again under the law and are thus hurt of it.

Not sure I grasped this the first time I read it, had to reread it a couple times, and it still sounds mixed.  The cross is the law?  Perhaps, but Jesus brought an end to the law.  No man could ever fulfill the law . . .that's why Jesus did.  And now that he did, we don't have to try anymore, we simply believe in the one who already did.  That's why I love even more this realm of rest . . .the work is already done and accounted for.

For the record, it seems to be assumed I believe the lake of fire happens now . . .I do not.  I believe tribulation happens now . . .but the lake of fire, in it's context of all the two times mentioned in Scripture, is referring to a spiritual experience, which happens after spirit and body are separated. . not a physical one.  I believe if you come to Christ, the lake of fire has already been acknowledged and dealt with.  

I also believe the original purpose for Revelation was for "that" generation for the things happening "physically" to that nation, including the lake of fire.  You do realize that Israel burned, literally, for over a year after the slaughter began didn't you?  It was common to smell smoke and see dead bodies bloating in that day.  Our minds have created this little religious, self-consciousness atmosphere within the comforts of our home that it's all about "us".  

That in their suffering, seeing their family members taken out into the streets and slaughtered, their mother's and wives raped, the bodies stacked as high as a horse's bridal . . . it got so out of hand that those who came in to bring peace to the civil wars within the nation, ended up killing until noone was left, save those that ran to the hills to hide in caves.  In the midst of that, a cry goes out that the last living disciple, the one that they "tried" to kill also, but could not, this last disciple had a revelation from God . . .and the message of this wonderful visitation is . . . .that 2000 years from now, Jesus is returning . . .we are a selfish, selfish people.

I believe "this" generation "should" be taking things differently than those to whom Scripture was originally written to in the first place.  So much has happened between now and then . . .we look at the natural world and how advanced we've become as mankind since the days when Jesus walked the face of the earth.  We have no problem seeing that in these last few hundred years man has come so far . . .yet when we open our Bibles . . . we want to remain where they were 2,000 years ago and at the same time, claim that what was actually meant for then, is yet to happen now.  How messed up is that??!!

The truth is, regardless of your take on the lake of fire . . .there is only "one" truth to it.  If we walk in the spirit, we'll walk in the truth.  My mind doesn't have to understand or control every little thing.  The mind does play a role . . .but not at the introduction, or the conception of life.  The woman had to be removed from the man in order for God's good to manifest.  Once she was removed from within Adam, she was presented back to Adam from without.  Once without, Adam then planted the seed within her . . .and life was birthed as a result.

You want life to be birthed from your Eve . .from your mind?  The leave the separating spirit from soul up to God . .let his Word separate your Eve from your Adam . . not because Eve is bad, but because Adam can't reproduce if Eve is out of order.

Whew .  . . that's fun when that stuff happens.  Don't ask me to quote the Scripture that says what I just said . . . you won't find it . .all you'll find is the pattern of it.

Anyway, the question was asked about your spirit . . . I don't see man having a spirit . . .I see man having God's spirit.  This is probably going to be another point of argument . . .but I don't believe Adam passed on his spirit nature . .it was dead, remember?  Separated from God??  I believe Adam obviously passed on the nature of sin, but not spirit, but soul.

The spirit in me is Gods . . .and . ..here we go .  .the spirit in . . .Hitler was also God's . . .the difference is, one is dorment and the other is alive.  When I walk according to my soul, I've taken captive my spirit . .. when I walk according to spirit, I've taken captive my soul.  This is the vague explanation.

But to answer the question up front . . I believe the spirit in me doesn't have the capacity to sin, anymore than the soul . .the ego in me, has the capacity to achieve righteousness of it's own virtue.

Ecclesiastes 12
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

It was never my spirit . .it's always been God's from the beginning.  I am a spirit, but I was never mine . . .I've always been his.  I was born into dormancy, but when I invited Christ in, spirit and soul reversed their place in me and the true me has been manifesting ever since.  The veil has been removed that held my spirit captive.  But if I didn't come to Christ, that veil would have remained through this life and into the next . .until . . .God would purify it, not to it's destruction, but to it's salvation back to him.

Note in this verse, there is no mention of eternal damnation.  Just a returning back to one's genesis.

[Taffy]

Now go back and read everything I had presented previously, to receive more answers to your questions.

No thanks...for we are POLES APART.....

Craig ...the dross removed is the FLESH of all men....tis purified by the the Blood(silver) of Christ..i ya think silver is all mankind bro..well..i cant say anything more,...

whats also burnt in the LOF, is also the Flesh Craig....that to is purified......so all whats Left is us in HIM and mim In us....SPIRIT.


Forgive me Bro..im not going around the world with you to Cross the road....believe as you will
Peace

Since you refuse to go back and read through what I presented, you demonstrate you don't want to know the answers to your questions. Also, since you have no Scriptural support for your belief, you have not refuted anything either Laren or I have presented, you remain stubbornly in a believe not based on knowledge but on your own understanding. It is not difficult to notice this. You purposely oppose things you do not understand based on your own understanding since you have not taken either the time to demonstrate your understanding, nor have you been fair in this discussion.

Craig Im going to delete this post and do you favor..ya getting to sound like willie..and hes now banned.

its not that I cant give you scrips bro...but ya going to see it your ways anyway...wilies given multitudes of scrips to prove his point..but what did they Prove bud....

ive seen these food fight before....thi is not the first time this ha gone around but at times craig you fail to answer the simplest of questions....

[Taffy]

That is not what Scripture says. The Silver does not purify the dross. The carnal nature of Craig has already been purified by the fire of Christ, not the Lake of Fire

So what ya saying is Craigs FLESH no longer lives and has BEEN purified by the FIRE,,,,but the dross being tin brass etc..is not flesh?

[pneuma]

Ok Taffy,

I got a few minutes.

the old covenant imo,is an agreement between God and man. God made the agreement.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hi Laren please reread those scriptures and take note that God under the new covenant is going to write the LAWS into our minds and hearts.

The old was ready to vanish away. And it did imo; when Israel was judged.

Laren the LAW is not done away with in the manner you are seeing, the only way the LAW is done away with is when it is FULFILLED. This is why God is writing the LAWS in our hearts and minds right now (this is the refining fire we all are right now experiencing) Thus when we keep His commandment ( and no we cannot keep them by works of the law after the letter, they are only kept by obedience which has nothing to do with works by way of the law by letter, but by the fulfilling of the law by the spirit) it is PROOF that the laws are indeed written in our hearts and mind.

The old is no longer in effect.

Only as long as we walk in the spirit, but if we again become entangled with the world the ministration of death/law comes into effect again. If it does not then we cannot be school mastered back to walking in Christ. For the scripture state that the LAW is for the salvation of the soul.

The types and figues (temple, sacrifices, etc) were done away with. God is no longer in old covenant with man. it is finished. The end of the age which vanished away imo.

I agree, but don't mix up the LAW with the types and figures for they are not the same, the LAW is spiritual, always was and always will be.

So now,

if one still lives as under old covenant, it has no authority. It imo, is done. Man is living under a covenant that no longer exists.

so i dont' see old and new preserved till now (meaning today) as it was done away with, vanished.

Again only as long as one is walking in the spirit brother.

Death also is already defeated for Christ but all things under His feet correct?

Yet we see death defeated in prophesy because death is still around.

So as death is already defeated in Christ, why is death still around?

Because we (the body of Christ) fill up that which is lacking in the suffering of Christ, and death will not be defeated until the FEET company is manifested.

All the prophesies that pertain to our Lord and saviour also pertain to us as we make up His body.

God bless 

[bobf]

Here's a question to anyone,

is there anywhere in the bible that talks of coming to a point of having our ears opened, or coming to "believing" or coming to "faith in/of Christ" is by fire?

I think what some here are saying, is that to come to faith, is through fire; and that fire is the lake of fire/second death.

Hi Laren,

I'll take a stab.  Fire is a symbol, so I don't think it has to say "fire", it can say what fire repesents.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

Judgment is so that:
1. Those who think they see will be shown their blindness.  <-- God bringing the lofty down
2. Those who see their blindness will be given sight, they will see God.  <-- God raising up the humble

God judges His people because they have no faith.

Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Judgment lasts until their "power is gone".  Is that faith?

Deuteronomy 32:32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter: 33  Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps. 34 Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures? 35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste. 36  For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left. 37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted.

In these two passages, judgment lasts until to bolded words.  Do those sound like faith?

Deuteronomy 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. 6  And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Deuteronomy 4:25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger: 26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong [your] days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed. 27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you. 28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. 29  But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul. 30  When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; 31 (For the LORD thy God [is] a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

All of which reminds me of this:

Galatians 3:24  Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25  But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

[Craig]

That is not what Scripture says. The Silver does not purify the dross. The carnal nature of Craig has already been purified by the fire of Christ, not the Lake of Fire

So what ya saying is Craigs FLESH no longer lives and has BEEN purified by the FIRE,,,,but the dross being tin brass etc..is not flesh?

I explained this to you already, you are not seeing the details of the bigger picture. You are making generalities and not seeing how they correlate with each other. You are making hasty generalizations and concluding that similarities are not similarities but the same thing. Imagine if you were before the courts and you were accused of murder alongside a real murderer because you lived in the same building, you took the same bus, you knew the same people, and both put your garbage in the same trash can. Would you say that similarity has now made you the murderer? Why would apply this same logic to the things of God?

It is talking about all mankind, those who trust in the Lord and those who do not.  The Silver Ore, is the speaking of all mankind. Just like the wheat and the tares planted in a field, is speaking of all mankind. Those who trust in the Lord, the sons of the Kingdom are separated from those who did not trust in the Lord, sons of the enemy. Only the dross and the tares face the furnace of fire.

Now something similar happens with the individual, who now trusts in the Lord. They go through a process very similar but not the same. If you want to talk about the believer he is composed of two parts, the wheat and the chaff. The chaff is the stalk of the wheat and that is not separated through the furnace, that is separated by the threshing floor. The wheat is separated from the chaff prior to the chaff ever being thrown into the furnace of fire. After silver has been put into the fire and separated from the dross, it is then pounded out with a hammer to remove any further impurity within the silver itself. The silver never faces the furnace of fire.

[pneuma]

As demonstrated before, whether I give Scripture or not, neither WillieH, Pneuma or yourself will find every excuse to not take what I said and refute it. You still have not done so.

What! how the heck did I get dragged into your debate with Willie and Taffy?

All I have done so far is post what I see, I have not debated anyone, so please leave me out of it.

[Taffy]

That is not what Scripture says. The Silver does not purify the dross. The carnal nature of Craig has already been purified by the fire of Christ, not the Lake of Fire

So what ya saying is Craigs FLESH no longer lives and has BEEN purified by the FIRE,,,,but the dross being tin brass etc..is not flesh?

I explained this to you already, you are not seeing the details of the bigger picture. You are making generalities and not seeing how they correlate with each other. You are making hasty generalizations and concluding that similarities are not similarities but the same thing. Imagine if you were before the courts and you were accused of murder alongside a real murderer because you lived in the same building, you took the same bus, you knew the same people, and both put your garbage in the same trash can. Would you say that similarity has now made you the murderer? Why would apply this same logic to the things of God?

It is talking about all mankind, those who trust in the Lord and those who do not.  The Silver Ore, is the speaking of all mankind. Just like the wheat and the tares planted in a field, is speaking of all mankind. Those who trust in the Lord, the sons of the Kingdom are separated from those who did not trust in the Lord, sons of the enemy. Only the dross and the tares face the furnace of fire.

Now something similar happens with the individual, who now trusts in the Lord. They go through a process very similar but not the same. If you want to talk about the believer he is composed of two parts, the wheat and the chaff. The chaff is the stalk of the wheat and that is not separated through the furnace, that is separated by the threshing floor. The wheat is separated from the chaff prior to the chaff ever being thrown into the furnace of fire. After silver has been put into the fire and separated from the dross, it is then pounded out with a hammer to remove any further impurity within the silver itself. The silver never faces the furnace of fire.

Thanks Craig

[pneuma]

Hi Nathan, give me a few minute( more like and hour  :laughing7:) to make a reply and I'll get back to you.

Just letting you know I saw your post and will be making a reply. :icon_flower:

[Craig]

As demonstrated before, whether I give Scripture or not, neither WillieH, Pneuma or yourself will find every excuse to not take what I said and refute it. You still have not done so.

What! how the heck did I get dragged into your debate with Willie and Taffy?

All I have done so far is post what I see, I have not debated anyone, so please leave me out of it.

Sorry Pnemua, but in past experience concerning the Lake of Fire, you have also made the same plays as both WillieH and Taffy have made accusing me of either not using Scripture to support my position, or that using Scripture didn't matter and you still disagree regardless. Therefore you were already part of it. There are three people in this forum who continue to use these excuses against me in why they cannot find agreement, you are one of them.

I just grow weary of having to hear it over and over, and I apologize for bringing your name into it.

[pneuma]

Not sure I grasped this the first time I read it, had to reread it a couple times, and it still sounds mixed. The cross is the law? Perhaps, but Jesus brought an end to the law. No man could ever fulfill the law . . .that's why Jesus did. And now that he did, we don't have to try anymore, we simply believe in the one who already did. That's why I love even more this realm of rest . . .the work is already done and accounted for.

Hi Nathan, yes Jesus brought an end to the law, but not after the manner you believe.
The law is not done away with except it be fulfilled.
This is hard to explain in a few words brother but if you are interested check out my blog here

http://indefenceofthecross.blogspot.com/2008/07/same-law.html

Also think of this bro, Jesus bore the cross for everyone correct?
Yet we to must bare our own cross, which cross is the same on He bore.
Thus His cross was the fulfilling of the law, so to is ours.

For the record, it seems to be assumed I believe the lake of fire happens now . . .I do not.

I see it as WAS, IS and IS TO COME, for it (lake of fire) is for the express purpose of manifesting Christ to us and in us.

I believe tribulation happens now . . .but the lake of fire, in it's context of all the two times mentioned in Scripture, is referring to a spiritual experience, which happens after spirit and body are separated. . not a physical one. I believe if you come to Christ, the lake of fire has already been acknowledged and dealt with.

Many see it this way Nathan, but Jesus warns the churches that unless they overcome they to will have their PART in the lake of fire.

I also believe the original purpose for Revelation was for "that" generation for the things happening "physically" to that nation, including the lake of fire. You do realize that Israel burned, literally, for over a year after the slaughter began didn't you? It was common to smell smoke and see dead bodies bloating in that day. Our minds have created this little religious, self-consciousness atmosphere within the comforts of our home that it's all about "us".

That in their suffering, seeing their family members taken out into the streets and slaughtered, their mother's and wives raped, the bodies stacked as high as a horse's bridal . . . it got so out of hand that those who came in to bring peace to the civil wars within the nation, ended up killing until noone was left, save those that ran to the hills to hide in caves. In the midst of that, a cry goes out that the last living disciple, the one that they "tried" to kill also, but could not, this last disciple had a revelation from God . . .and the message of this wonderful visitation is . . . .that 2000 years from now, Jesus is returning . . .we are a selfish, selfish people.

I also see a literal side bro, after all Jesus died on a literal cross, but the cross we are to bare is not just literal but spiritual, same as with Him. And I agree it not all about us, it about all those that went before us, those in the here and now and those yet to come, WAS, IS and IS TO COME.

I believe "this" generation "should" be taking things differently than those to whom Scripture was originally written to in the first place. So much has happened between now and then . . .we look at the natural world and how advanced we've become as mankind since the days when Jesus walked the face of the earth. We have no problem seeing that in these last few hundred years man has come so far . . .yet when we open our Bibles . . . we want to remain where they were 2,000 years ago and at the same time, claim that what was actually meant for then, is yet to happen now. How messed up is that??!!

There is nothing new under the sun, what was is what will be.

The truth is, regardless of your take on the lake of fire . . .there is only "one" truth to it. If we walk in the spirit, we'll walk in the truth. My mind doesn't have to understand or control every little thing. The mind does play a role . . .but not at the introduction, or the conception of life. The woman had to be removed from the man in order for God's good to manifest. Once she was removed from within Adam, she was presented back to Adam from without. Once without, Adam then planted the seed within her . . .and life was birthed as a result.

You want life to be birthed from your Eve . .from your mind? The leave the separating spirit from soul up to God . .let his Word separate your Eve from your Adam . . not because Eve is bad, but because Adam can't reproduce if Eve is out of order.

I like that

Whew . . . that's fun when that stuff happens. Don't ask me to quote the Scripture that says what I just said . . . you won't find it . .all you'll find is the pattern of it.

I knew where you were coming from brother.

Anyway, the question was asked about your spirit . . . I don't see man having a spirit . . .I see man having God's spirit.

His spirit bare witness with our spirit that we are the sons of God.

This is probably going to be another point of argument . . .but I don't believe Adam passed on his spirit nature . .it was dead, remember? Separated from God?? I believe Adam obviously passed on the nature of sin, but not spirit, but soul.

God spirit is not in need of salvation.

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The spirit in me is Gods . . .and . ..here we go . .the spirit in . . .Hitler was also God's . . .the difference is, one is dorment and the other is alive.

Don't forget about the spirit of the anti-christ Nathan.

Anti does not mean against according to scripture, but carries the meaning of instead of, thus man has within them a spirit INSTEAD OF the spirit of Christ. He is the man of sin that sits in the temple, which temple we are and declares himself god.

When I walk according to my soul, I've taken captive my spirit . .. when I walk according to spirit, I've taken captive my soul. This is the vague explanation.

I know what you are saying Nathan and I agree in part (one of my favourite books is the spiritual man by Nee) I just see it slightly different in that our spirit when it listens to Gods who is spirit takes captive the soul. God spirit takes captive our spirit, our spirit then take captive our soul, and when spirit and soul are in union takes captive our body.

But to answer the question up front . . I believe the spirit in me doesn't have the capacity to sin, anymore than the soul . .the ego in me, has the capacity to achieve righteousness of it's own virtue.

Ecclesiastes 12
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.



It was never my spirit . .it's always been God's from the beginning. I am a spirit, but I was never mine . . .I've always been his. I was born into dormancy, but when I invited Christ in, spirit and soul reversed their place in me and the true me has been manifesting ever since. The veil has been removed that held my spirit captive. But if I didn't come to Christ, that veil would have remained through this life and into the next . .until . . .God would purify it, not to it's destruction, but to it's salvation back to him.

Note in this verse, there is no mention of eternal damnation. Just a returning back to one's genesis.

Again we agree in part Nathan, but is it our spirit that returns to God who gave it when we return to dust or is it His spirit?

Remember when Adam was cast forth from the garden he returned to the dust from whence he was taken, yet Adam still had a spirit, soul and body.

God bless

[Taffy]

By your question you revealed your proposition, I already knew you thought the Silver and Dross spoke of the individual person. Though, when speaking of Silver, God was talking about mankind in general not an individual. So the silver ore is all mankind, and what it means to be purified like silver, is to separate the silver from the dross. The silver is not burned in the process, nor does it lose anything. The dross however is burned and is left in the furnace

Hi Craig Having re- read  and digested.

First and foremost..No, I didnt not say SILVER was an Individual,What I said it was Christ \Blood, The Hidden man of the Heart  which is Not damaged, the Dross( Flesh) is the carnality of MAN ,which is burnt...The soul ( mind and heart) of Man being purified\CLEANSED by His Blood\fire

The wheat is also the Hidden Man which dwells in the our carnal Nature ie( tares) and they too are seperated, as with the Dross which too are Burnt, DETROYED..Flesh is NOT refined,  as it serves no purpose...again its the soul( heart and Mind)being united as ONE.

The refining is through Fire\BLOOD which brings about HIM,the ore if you will ,HEATED hot enough to Bring us FACE TO FACE, meaning one with HIM( OUR HEART AND mIND)... as will also, the destruction of the Flesh bring about the same( lof)....One fire with Two purposes,one of refining and one  of destruction which will bring about the same result, that is ,the DEATH of carnality ( for the Flesh PROFITS NOTHING)...which I recall is more than you used to suggest as I believe at one time you saw TWO FIRES....for two different purposes..would that be correct ?

iF YOU WILL ,the lake of fire cannot hurt spirit, for thats what we NOW ARE,the purpose of the LAKE is for the destruction the flesh......

does this clarify my understanding a little clearer...if not show me where you believe otherwise,or what you percieve Im missing/

[Craig]

I will answer the above questions but I want to address this:

F YOU WILL ,the lake of fire cannot hurt spirit, for thats what we NOW ARE,the purpose of the LAKE is for the destruction the flesh......

Jesus said the wheat and the tares grow together until the end, where the wheat is obvious and the tares are obvious. The tares are then torn up and thrown into the furnace at the end. Whether this is talking of the flesh or not, has no relevance to this present age/life being the Lake of Fire. Making the carnality of man the issue, makes no difference because that is the issue and it isn't going away in this lifetime, therefore this cannot be the Lake of Fire. The carnality of man is not destroyed until the flesh is literally destroyed, and at the resurrection of the dead we are raised in a spiritual body, one free of sin. You are not free of sin until you die, leave this world, no longer here. You're sin is not counted against you, since you have been reconciled by God through the Cross and if you trust in the Lord, raised first. Until then, we live continually battling our carnality, doing things we know we should not do, but do it anyways, Romans 7. Our victory is in the Resurrection of the Dead. Our Hope is in the Resurrection of the Dead. In which I have said repeatedly, it appears that those who believe the Lake of Fire is this life, do seem to demonstrate. The Lake of Fire happens after the resurrection of the dead.

Revelation 20:4-15
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Satan's Doom
7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Dead Are Judged
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Notice, it happens after everyone is dead, the only ones in verse 11 who are not there are the ones in verse 4, because they were raised first and sitting on the thrones next to the great White throne.

As much as you continue to deny it, there is a separation (that is what holy means) between those who trust in the Lord (as God knows they did, not what man says they did) and those who do not.

I will address the rest later.

[Nathan]

Still taking it literally . . .those that have been beheaded is the same as what Paul states . . .I have been 'crucified' with Christ . . .my mind has been taken captive by my spirit . . . we're to lose our head because there is only one head . . .we are the body.  This isn't about people . .this is about ME.

Walk in the spirit . . .this to me is the spiritual picture of what is being said ..it's what we're to apply to ourselves now.  It's what is seen from the person of rest rather than from a mind of labor.

[CHB]

In the midst of that, a cry goes out that the last living disciple, the one that they "tried" to kill also, but could not, this last disciple had a revelation from God . . .and the message of this wonderful visitation is . . . .that 2000 years from now, Jesus is returning . . .we are a selfish, selfish people.

I believe "this" generation "should" be taking things differently than those to whom Scripture was originally written to in the first place.  So much has happened between now and then . . .we look at the natural world and how advanced we've become as mankind since the days when Jesus walked the face of the earth.  We have no problem seeing that in these last few hundred years man has come so far . . .yet when we open our Bibles . . . we want to remain where they were 2,000 years ago and at the same time, claim that what was actually meant for then, is yet to happen now.  How messed up is that??!!

Hi Nathan,

Really liked your post. I have a question as to what you said about Jesus returning. Are you saying that Jesus will return after two thousand years? Is this two thousand years from when Jesus was born, crucified, or resurrected? If this is true, that time is just about here.

I agree that most of the Bible was written to, for, and about Israel. Most people try to apply all of it to us today. Even Jesus's words were for Israel. He said, "I am sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel".  The Bible is for our learning but the rules, laws, and most of it, except for some of Paul's writings, are to, for, and about Israel.   

CHB

[Craig]

Still taking it literally . . .those that have been beheaded is the same as what Paul states . . .I have been 'crucified' with Christ . . .my mind has been taken captive by my spirit . . . we're to lose our head because there is only one head . . .we are the body.  This isn't about people . .this is about ME.

Walk in the spirit . . .this to me is the spiritual picture of what is being said ..it's what we're to apply to ourselves now.  It's what is seen from the person of rest rather than from a mind of labor.

I am not taking it literally Nathan. That is your hangup to see, not mine to believe. Since you have not addressed anything I presented previously, why do you present it now, only to cause confusion?

Taking me out of context is bad as if I wrote this in reply to what you just said here:

his isn't about people . .this is about ME.

And said,

"Selfishness is not a good way to interpret Scripture. The world doesn't revolve around you."


So, if you are going to address what I wrote, address from post #1, not the last post and don't take me out of context again. Thank-you.

For clarification, those who have been beheaded are just as I have said, those who trust in the Lord, live by the Spirit, if that is you or I today, then we are also those who have been beheaded and sit on the thrones. So do not put words in my mouth.

[Nathan]

SOtv
It almost seems like you look for an offense . . .putting words in your mouth was not what I was doing, I was stating what I saw by how you were wording your explanation.  I was not speaking on behalf of you . . .at any rate, the reason I did say that was because it "appears" that you are saying that everyone will be dead . .physically, before the passage in Revelation you quoted would come to pass.  Is that what you're saying?  Or are you saying that one must be spiritually dead . .willingly . . .at which point, one's identity is no longer theirs, but it is God's illuminating through them?  If "that's" what you're saying, then I am in agreement 100%.  The martyred souls beneath the altar . .the beheaded souls also mentioned elsewhere in the passage you quoted . . .

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. (I must decrease . . .the beheading is my mind) They had not worshiped the beast (carnal mind) or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads (carnal thinking) or their hands.(religious works) They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years

The thousand years is not coming in the future . .it is NOW . . .it is the DAY of the Lord . .he is the SABBATH . .it's all intertwined as one and the same.  The thousand years is a person.  Not a time frame.  And your comment after this verse implies you're looking at it literally . .which again, is why I commented as I did.



CHB
Yes, and it's another reason why I think we'd benefit so much more if we stopped trying to apply the written word literally and understand our approach to it is to be spiritually.  It all has spiritually relevance, but in order to see, we need to lay our heads down . . .our mind wants to understand so we have been taught to take things in to our own hands (heads) and learn the words of Scripture and apply them to ourselves and each other as we understand them to be.  And here is the crux of the issue . . .it's not intended for me to apply to you . . .that is falling out of grace and back into law.  Anything that I enforce on you becomes a law within you.  That is the very thing we're to be freed from.

It was mentioned earlier that law and religion is not the same thing . . .I guess I just see this so much differently.  Anything that is a rule to avoid something else to me, is a law.  Good, bad, or ugly, it's still a law.  Romans states in 3:19 law is the knowledge of sin.  And that's what most churches build their platforms on, the sins of others.  It's not about right and wrong . . .I keep saying this .  . .it's about being One.  And incidentally, being one is not the same as being the same in thought . .another thread.

As for the coming of the Lord . . .Jesus didn't say he was coming again in three days, he said he would rebuild the church being torn down in three days.  He built the first church as well, but it was not intended to be a permanent place . . .Just as God had Moses built a "tent" and called it his "tabernacle" . .it was not meant to be a permanent place.  The temple that did get built was not God's idea . .it was David's who passed this on to Solomon.  God blessed it and did dwell in it, but the picture God wanted them to see was, God never remains in a stationary place, he moves whereever he desires to move.

So, the first church Jesus built became defiled for several reasons.  One, because it's purpose was no longer needed . .which is connected to Two, rather than let it go, it was embraced as "The" dwelling place of the Lord.  At which point, men defiled that which was once holy.  So, it was removed and three days later . . .and you're right, if it isn't already here, it's so close that the darkness of night is already being pushed back by the dawning of this Day coming. 

As to whether Jesus is coming in bodily form . . .part of me still says yes, but there are many UR's who feel his physical returning is actually through our physcial bodies as we are going to be the corporate body on this earth.  I still am not FULLY convinced that this is the "only" physical returnning that will be happening.  I'm still a little hung up on "just as you saw him go, you'll see him return".  This has not been fully understood in me yet as to how this fits in with him returning in the corporate body only.

The other piece to this is. . .just as there was a forerunner before the coming of Christ . . .I can easily see that the coming of the Lord "in" the corporate body "is" the forerunning of Christ coming "to" the corporate body.  And just as the forerunner of Christ has his head severed . .so we to must be beheaded so the glory of God can increase in and through us as well.  Here inlies the delimma of many of the conversations I see on the forums in general . . .we're still used to digesting the opinions of others with the proof of our minds . . .it's a tough thing to let it go . .but I believe it will happen . .it has to  . . . it's already been decreed.

[Taffy]

Jesus said the wheat and the tares grow together until the end, where the wheat is obvious and the tares are obvious. The tares are then torn up and thrown into the furnace at the end. Whether this is talking of the flesh or not, has no relevance to this present age/life being the Lake of Fire. Making the carnality of man the issue, makes no difference because that is the issue and it isn't going away in this lifetime, therefore this cannot be the Lake of Fire. The carnality of man is not destroyed until the flesh is literally destroyed, and at the resurrection of the dead we are raised in a spiritual body, one free of sin

The Tares Craig are likened to those who sleep or those who are withOUT....,those who are DEAD in Christ,..why are they dead,?... because of their carnality....thats why its burnt..and it matters very Much that is  now, For HE IS the Resurrection in the Hearts of Men....to those who believe.

The reapers are the ANGELS,..

1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live TOGETHER with him.

Brother, we can both quote the scriptures and youll we see what you see, and Ill see what I see ,and never the twain shall meet, thats the point Nathan made....

Im spirrtual Craig...listen to Pauls words..SIN has NO hold on me...Im dead to it...

Rom 8:1  [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:


Rom 8:4  That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


Rom 8:5  For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Rom 8:6  For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.


Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 8:8  So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Rom 8:10  And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Your seing the resurRection as something literal in the future,,im sorry bro...thats NOW, im not going to go around and around because we will get Nowhere,maybe thats the reason some here see things differently ,even thou we read the same scriptures and for sure Craig, Im not pitting scripture against scripture with you or anyone,...


weve gone off what SILVER means..Dross, and youve made no mention of what I said in anyway shape of form to be correct..not even when ya believed in TWO FIRES and preached it from the HILT...cos I was one you preached it at!

do I see a Formal recognition that you Now see differently.and that you were wrong some time back?...no!..just more preaching from the Hilt...my words then never changed your thoughts ,althou others said the same things to you...AND  I DONT SEE THE POINT now.


Im not saying the lake is NOT for the destruction OF THE FLESH ( CARNALITY)...AND IM NOT SAYING EITHER THOSE IN HIM are not purified through HIS BLOOD....

Irrespective of the time element Craig....EACH man will be cleansed, Be it now through HIS Blood or whats termed the LAKE of FIRE where the flesh is consumed....its still HIM.



It obvious we dont see eye to eye with this and thats fine by Me...im not here to refute your words ,...i post what im led to see from whats written .. and I care not if you agree or not....

I just started asking you a few questions to see what you thought...interested to know why?..... but I  have no need for a scriptural war.



I  also dont agree that our carnality ( THE ENMITY)is only Destroyed when we literally Die Craig..

Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

[Nathan]

Taf . . . some day you're going to say something I disagree with . . .but I'm beginning to have my doubts.  You're a fun read.  I have learned much from your words.  and I appreciate you more than you know.

[Craig]

SOtv
It almost seems like you look for an offense . . .

Read this with pure heart, and do not take offense as I say it. In a forum, it is difficult enough to communicate without someone taking you out of context. I don't look for an offense, I correct before any offense can be taken, that is, if you continued to think that is what I said now, then I would take offense and write you off because all you would be doing is spreading lies. Perhaps I lack some tact in telling people that they are on the wrong track of thinking and need to correct it. I just know what you said of what I believe, is not true in what I believe.

putting words in your mouth was not what I was doing, I was stating what I saw by how you were wording your explanation.

By taking me out of context and not applying what I said from the very first post I presented, you took your presumption of what others believe, to what I said. It wasn't what I said, therefore you put words in my mouth. I am not offended as I say this, I just don't like it when this is done. By the grace of God, do you care to even now go through the beginning of the thread and give your understanding of what I said after you have read what I presented in full? Then I know any conclusion you make at least is educated.

I was not speaking on behalf of you . . .at any rate, the reason I did say that was because it "appears" that you are saying that everyone will be dead . .physically, before the passage in Revelation you quoted would come to pass. Is that what you're saying?

The word 'physically' is used wrong, what you mean is 'naturally'. If you did mean 'phyiscally', then you and I differ and I believe you are mistaken in how the resurrection of the dead works. The resurrection of the dead is of the body sown naturally and raised spiritually. The dead is sown a is natural body, and raised up spiritual spiritual body. Both the natural and spiritual body are physical, but the spiritual is not limited to the physical. By faith, we are already raised in the resurrection which has yet to happen for us who continue to live in this body.

Or are you saying that one must be spiritually dead . .willingly . . .at which point, one's identity is no longer theirs, but it is God's illuminating through them?  If "that's" what you're saying, then I am in agreement 100%.  The martyred souls beneath the altar . .the beheaded souls also mentioned elsewhere in the passage you quoted . . .

There is no man who is spiritually dead, their soul and the body can die, but the spirit cannot because this is returned back to God who gave it. But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.

Next, you forget that while you live in this body, another law works within it's members. Though idealizing the Gospel, you have neglected much which is in front of us.

Romans 7:21-23
So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

So no matter how much you submit to the inner being which delights in God's law, you still have a body subjected to corruption as it continues to work for it's food, and fight the daily grind of this life and the principalities and powers and wickedness in high places. Flesh and blood, as long as it is your home, does not inherit the kingdom of God. That is why Paul yearned to leave this body, because to be absent from the natural body, is to be present with the Lord in the spiritual body

2 Corinthians 5:1-9
For we know that if the earthly tent [natural body] which is our house is torn down, we have a building [spiritual body] from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house [natural body] we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling [spiritual body] from heaven, inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. For indeed while we are in this tent [natural body], we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal [natural] will be swallowed up by life.

Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord--for we walk by faith, not by sight--we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body [natural body] and to be at home [spiritual body] with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home [natural body] or absent [from the natural body], to be pleasing to Him.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

The resurrection of the dead is talking about the body, not the mind. While we are in this natural body, we should already be renewing our mind by the Word and raise our minds with Him presently. This is not the resurrection of the dead, this is being pulled from darkness and into the light.

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. (I must decrease . . .the beheading is my mind) They had not worshiped the beast (carnal mind) or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads (carnal thinking) or their hands.(religious works) They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years

The thousand years is not coming in the future . .it is NOW . . .it is the DAY of the Lord . .he is the SABBATH . .it's all intertwined as one and the same.  The thousand years is a person.  Not a time frame.  And your comment after this verse implies you're looking at it literally . .which again, is why I commented as I did

Of course this is happening NOW. However, whether you believe it or not, you are still on earth, you have yet been taken from it. The resurrection of the dead is not just talking about your mind, but also your body. No matter how much your mind is raised with Christ, you still have yet to be raised from the dead since you are still in the world and not taken from it. To be raised in the mind, is not how the resurrection of the dead works. Those who have fallen asleep, that is died before you and I, are the ones presently reigning with Christ for the 1000 years and we will join them until the Lord has come for us. Something that we believe by faith, and hope for. That which is believed by faith is not presently seen, it is the hope for things to come. We live by faith NOW.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

So what you don't know, it seems, is that you still live in the world have yet been taken from it.

John 17:6-19
"I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. "I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

Do you believe Jesus, or will you consider that perhaps you have idealized so much the resurrection of the dead, that you missed the fact that you are still in the world and need protection from the evil one. In other words, we are to take by faith and hope of the promise and live in it presently even though it has yet happened.

I pointed this out before, those who believe this present life is the Lake of Fire, or that Jesus alone is the Lake of Fire, have neglected the resurrection of the dead in their premise.

[Craig]

Once again Taffy, you make a point of disagreement where there is none!

The Tares Craig are likened to those who sleep or those who are withOUT....,those who are DEAD in Christ,..why are they dead,?... because of their carnality....thats why its burnt..and it matters very Much that is  now,

You forget, everyone who lives this life still experience the end of their life either unrepentant sinners, or repentant believer. The tares are those who have lived this life and died in their sin! I am talking what happens to the unrepentant sinner who dies in their sins. That is what Jesus was talking about in the Wheat and the Tares. The Wheat and the Chaff is what happens to the repentant believer.

John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

This does matter very much now because there are many today, who die who do not have to, in their sins.

For HE IS the resurrection in the Hearts of Men....to those who believe

Again another point of disagreement where there is none. I have already said to Nathan in the above, regardless if  that by our mind (heart) we have been raised, there still is the resurrection of the body. Paul explains the two processes in depth throughout the letters to the Corinthians. By one we live by faith, by another we live in it's present reality.

The reapers are the ANGELS,..

1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live TOGETHER with him.

Brother, we can both quote the scriptures and youll we see what you see, and Ill see what I see ,and never the twain shall meet, thats the point Nathan made....

Once again yes, whether wake or sleep, but you will not precede those who have slept, keep reading the whole letter and not just bits and pieces.

This is a constant process, not some 'end' scenario, the angels are those who fell asleep in Christ, when Jesus comes with His angels in fire, that is the Lake of Fire. So that is how the Lake of Fire cannot be this life, it is Jesus and His angels.

This is what I agree with WillieH concerning, this is what I agree with you concerning, but you still have not seen it because you gone to look for disagreement where there is none. You have emphesized points where I did not disagree, as if they were a disagreement in the first place.

Im spirrtual Craig...listen to Pauls words..SIN has NO hold on me...Im dead to it...

Rom 8:1  [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:


Rom 8:4  That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


Rom 8:5  For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Rom 8:6  For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.


Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 8:8  So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Rom 8:10  And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Yes, but that is by faith you are dead. That is by faith sin has no hold on you. We aren't talking about those who sin has no hold on. Why do you think that the Lake of Fire is for you, and don't realize that you are the Lake of Fire from the very beginning? I have not been talking about what happens to those who have submitted themselves to Christ, we are talking about what happens to those who do not! They are the ones who are thrown into the Lake of Fire. So you can post Scriptures trying to find a disagreement, but they are not relevant to this discussion, or at least what I have been saying from the very first post in my discussion.

Your seing the resurRection as something literal in the future,,im sorry bro...thats NOW, im not going to go around and around because we will get Nowhere,maybe thats the reason some here see things differently ,even thou we read the same scriptures and for sure Craig, Im not pitting scripture against scripture with you or anyone,...

No I don't see the resurrection as something literal in the future. It just shows how much you have not been paying attention to this discussion. The reason you don't want to go around around on this, is because you cannot understand that I have said this is happening now, and has been for 2000 years and you cannot understand what I am saying and so you continue to attack your own presumptions, not what I believe. You have a tendency to generalize everything, over and over again, you think 'similar' means the same. Do I need to go through again the example in which similar does not mean same? Have you yet recognized it that you cannot see a tree from the forest?

What I am explaining to you, is both the tree and the forest.

weve gone off what SILVER means..Dross, and youve made no mention of what I said in anyway shape of form to be correct..not even when ya believed in TWO FIRES and preached it from the HILT...cos I was one you preached it at!

do I see a Formal recognition that you Now see differently.and that you were wrong some time back?...no!..just more preaching from the Hilt...my words then never changed your thoughts ,althou others said the same things to you...AND  I DONT SEE THE POINT now.


Im not saying the lake is NOT for the destruction OF THE FLESH ( CARNALITY)...AND IM NOT SAYING EITHER THOSE IN HIM are not purified through HIS BLOOD....

Irrespective of the time element Craig....EACH man will be cleansed, Be it now through HIS Blood or whats termed the LAKE of FIRE where the flesh is consumed....its still HIM.

If you read anything I wrote, you would notice again you are making a disagreement where there is none. You are stuck in your presumptions of what others believe rather than just paying attention to the details.

You make points that are irrelevant to the disagreement!!!!!!! That has been your problem from the very beginning of this thread and you have been called out on this more than once. Still you justify yourself.

It obvious we dont see eye to eye with this and thats fine by Me...im not here to refute your words ,...i post what im led to see from whats written .. and I care not if you agree or not....

I just started asking you a few questions to see what you thought...interested to know why?..... but I  have no need for a scriptural war.

No, you don't want to see eye to eye and that is fine with you. If you cannot refute my words, then you have no idea what it is I am saying inthose words. That is the point brother, and once again, you have been called on it just now.

I  also dont agree that our carnality ( THE ENMITY)is only Destroyed when we literally Die Craig..

Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

You are not paying attention to the discussion, so it doesn't really matter what you say does it?

You are talking about what happens to the repentant believer, this I have no disagreement concerning happens to the repentant believer. The portion you fail, and continually fail to answer, is what I am talking about, and that is what happens to the unrepentant sinner who dies in their sins, who does live by the flesh and not by the Spirit. So now you know why there is a disagreement, you aren't paying attention to the discussion.

[Taffy]

Have a Nice day Craig. :icon_flower: