The Revealing of Jesus Christ

[laren]

so, could we conclude that Christ is this CONSUMING fire,which is Now ,and which was ,and which is to COME,being the same Fire , named the lake of fire...if this be so ?what willie suggests ,The Lake being Christ AS WELL, is NOW....simple enough for simple minds like me...

:icon_flower:

For me, the Noah story is a good similtude.  

Christ is the Ark.  Those in Ark were not "swimming in the water/fire".  They did not get hurt by it.  They received their reward.  Those who did not build there lives upon the Rock (ark), saw their world come crashing down.  The fire/water destroyed them.  Left desolate with a perptual shame.  The fire imo, is the water/rain/flood.  

I see a fire that tries one's faith as different than the fire that destroys.  I agree with Craig that believers do not get hurt of the LOF, they "rise" above the waters.    

I don't see the new testament written in a way that is talking about "wheat/tares" within.  

Paul imo, was referring to two different sets of peoples in Galatians (Isaacs and Ishamaels).  Law zealot jews/OC Israel, and those called and chosen to come out of that whoredom.

I lean toward a preterist view, and believe that those who built their house upon the "law", saw there house come crashing down.  Those given eyes to see, and ears to hear received reward.  

Where/what  I personally struggle with, is today are we still having two sets of "people", one's hardened, and ones shown mercy just as in the New testament times,

or is it all fulfilled, and the working out of the NEW in us can be viewed as a "wheat/tares" in us, with one part being burned, and one part Living (which would be along the lines of Taffy, Willie, and Pneuma).

or are there many many layers that scripture can be interpreted and all "right".

just my opinion at this time.  

blesssings


Laren

[Taffy]

This being the case, where's the need for afterlife punishment?  The difference between how the Lake relates to us and how it relates to the world is based upon the condition of the heart. 

Christ conditions the heart Martin,  Tis truly all his doing, when I say this, some pots for Honour..you Know the rest,
but each moulded from the  same Piece....


For me Like Pharoah, ALL is done for HIS GLORY...not out understanding....

it comes to what we percieve to Be CORRECTION,..we do look at things carnally, not truly grasping the LOVE of GOD.

as Laren stated with the ARK..Christ is our rest NOW, we receive OUR REWARD now, as did \do those who Drowned beneath the WATERS....BOTH recieved ....

we PAY our dues NOW,..each and every MAN...., I can only see a JUST GOD,...I also see Life eternal Being Now ,But different to immortality..shared this with Seth yrs back, and( laren a few weeks back)..seems thesedays he preaches it....To me thats our REWARD....NOW,... as those who  DO not believe or live beneath the waters.....reap theirs now...ALLS FAIR from My perspective,....
FOR ME, to many christians believe theres still MORE...I dont see that,

ITS ALL FINISHED....paid for...done complete....

we LIVE FOR HIS GLORY, not ours....

so, what of these Hitler types.?..like paul..he was Converted Instantly..thats how easy it is...if HE WANTS IT THAT WAY...

No Martin, I dont expect the Likes of the hitlers etc to suffer any more or less than we do when we were converted..the whole purpose is to see LIFE....we just are BLESSED to see it NOW....THATS OUR REWARD NOW.

ITS not something I wait for, oh yes Bro ,I long to Be rid of this crap body...ill tell you about it sometime, started at 15 and has plagued me since,,,gee matey I COULD HAVE  Much to Curse our Lord for for doing this to me,,,,but bro..im not flesh..im spirit,thats the BIGGER PICTURE.

sorry bud, Im no post thingy ma jig....God heals within in..and it got nothing to do with HEALTH,

ITS OUR PART, the fleshy PART, the Contrary PART... which is purified in the LAKE....we are Just purified In the Mind before HAND,understanding the Love its done in , First hand,...which will come as a Bigger shock for those who never..makes more sence to me than what ever I seen written ....what ever the ISM....

wow... wheres the scrips..not like me....but there again that time will come

oh annias etc.... they never TRULY gave up THIER ""PART""""""""""""..they were stealers...we all give up OUR part COMPLETELY..OR YOULL reap His vengeance...... so the INNER part can BE MADE MANIFEST..theirs ONLY one winner...and I aint going to argue :icon_flower:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi sotw... :hithere:

I think what throws a lot of people from this passage is the fact, that again appealing to chronology, Revelation 20 implies bodily resurrection prior to the Lake of Fire judgment.

The Lake of Fire is part of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. That is not in dispute, so I have no idea why it is even the title of this. The issue WillieH makes is that we are presently living in the Lake of Fire, that is in dispute.

Your arrogance preceeds you... Many have no understanding of the LOF... and you propose to RENAME this THREAD in your own honor...  :thumbdown:

Dispute is fine... it is part of the process in which we share ideas... and logically arrive at REASON... I welcome your dispute...  :thumbsup:

The Lake of Fire is Second Death.

It is your "UNDERSTANDING" of Rev 20:14-15 ...that results in your FINITE observation of it bro...

DEATH (both spiritual and physical) and HELL [hades/grave]... Were CAST INTO the LAKE of FIRE... DEATH and HELL, ...being CAST INTO the LAKE of FIRE, ...IS, the 2nd DEATH...

DEATH and HELL [hades/grave] are active elements/scenarios in THIS LIFE, on THIS EARTH... NOW... CHRIST also noted that the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD is NOW... (John 12:31)

DEATH (spiritual and physical) and HELL [hades/grave] are the 2 elements that CHRIST overcame IN THIS LIFE...

Second Death has no power over those who trust in the Lord. If it has no power, it has no power period; that means, no power to correct, no power to lift up and edify, no power to destroy, no power at all.

Your finite perspective clouds SPIRITUAL vision Craig...

You (in my observation) misunderstand...

While we are "in the body of THIS DEATH" (Rom 7:23-24) ... correction DEFINITELY takes place in the here and now... which is WHY Scripture has been given to us (2 Tim 3:16) WHILE we ARE (in THIS LIFE as was PAUL), IN the BODY of THIS DEATH...

CHRIST overcame BOTH DEATHS and HELL [hades/grave].  Those IN CHRIST, overcome IN HIM... they are part of the FIRST resurrection... and their SIN is found CLOTHED (covered IN HIM -- Rev 3:18)

The 1st DEATH men DIE, is SPIRITUAL (which death CHRIST "tasted for us" to redeem us FROM) (let the DEAD bury their DEAD -- (Matt 8:22)... He said this of [physically] "Living" men, burying [physically] Dead men...

The 2nd DEATH is PHYSICAL and once it has been entered INTO, it has no POWER over those who trusted in CHRIST as their SIN is COVERED, rendering SIN's "REPORT" before GOD, POWERLESS ...(NAKEDNESS of SHAME -- Rev 3:18)

There is no way around what both Martin and I brought up, scripturally, biblically, logically, reasonably or even emotionally. To say we are living in the Lake of Fire is not just is not the case.

You (to the point of nausea) accuse others of using fallitious arguements, and here, INSTEAD of using SCRIPTURE, ...you seek to add Martin as a fellow proponent in YOUR arguement, and thereby try to FALSELY verify that arguement... please...   :grin:

Martin admittedly noted IMPLICATION of RESURRECTION, which actually is NOT IN THE TEXT...  And He also admitted that he is UNDECIDED about this issue, and was GLAD it had been presented for discussion!  :thumbsup:

You FALSELY note him as decided IN YOUR FAVOR (which he IS NOT), in hopes to validate your own position bro...  :dontknow:

If you wish to "DISPUTE"... try doing it on your own...  :dontknow:

That YOU say above, that my statement that THIS LIFE, IS the LAKE of FIRE, is "not the case", in no way PROVES what you say to be true... nor does it prove my statement to be false...

This is not BIBLICAL DISPUTE... it is reduced to what it IS, ...YOUR OPINION only...   :Sparkletooth:

The Lake of Fire is final Judgment for those who continued to live according to their sinful natures, for those who did not continue to trust in the Lord (described as keeping their robes clean in the blood of Christ).

More inaccurate opinion of what IS WRITTEN!  There is no such notation that the LAKE of FIRE is any FINAL judgment... :mnah:  If there is, please note the verse...  :dontknow:

This is just TRADITIONAL "church"... hocus-pocus...  :thumbdown:  It is without SPIRITUAL insight, and is based upon OPINION and a NATURAL/LITERAL observation of SPIRITUAL/SYMBOLIC notations...

WE do not, "keep our robes clean"... CHRIST does this FOR US, ...IN US...

NO MAN, can do anything BUT SIN... until CHRIST changes that nature and lives within that ONE, of HIS DOING...  

We are HIS WORKMANSHIP Craig, ...NOT our own...  We do not ascend to the LIGHT via OUR decided, abandonment of the SINFUL NATURE... ...HE rescues us from ALL DEATH that encompasses each of us, bro... in HIS due time (2 Tim 2:3-6)

There is no way around what both Martin and I brought up so simply which says this life, or present age, is NOT the Lake of Fire.

Again... Martin (unlike you) noted himself undecided on this issue... and also as I said above, that IMPLICATION of RESURRECTION (which does not appear)... is in part why, the LAKE of FIRE is traditionally observed...

You stating the LOF is not THIS LIFE, has not proven a thing...

Your observation makes GOD subject to TIME and CHRONOLOGY Craig... He IS NOT... He is NOT encumbered by it whatosoever... neither is He SUBJECT to IT in ANY WAY or at ANY TIME...  :happygrin:

Furthermore, your teaching is that of FEAR... and within the grip of FEAR'S TORMENT does your doctrine writhe... not GOOD NEWS... rather, it is the negative prophecy which, as does the ET belief, conveniently DISINCLUDES yourself, while comfortably condemning others to future PAIN... and SUFFERING...  :thumbdown:

Teaching just another "alternative" version of HELL which YOU think you have sidestepped...

You are in for a big surprise... for it is the SHAME of this misrepresentation of GOD, which you shall carry into RESURRECTION, unless SEEKING, ...you shall find GOD's LOVE within the entire message you preach...  For if any portion of LOVE, is PRIDEFULLY disregarded... that portion shall bear its SHAME...

You're a smart guy brother, ...Stick to what YOU know...  and try speaking for yourself, instead of grabbing others by the inaccurate "nape of the quote" in hopes their words might somehow back or "verify" what you say...  :laughing7:

Might I conclude with the sincere hope,  :cloud9: ...that you shall soon find, the length, and depth and breadth and height of His LOVE brother, ...which PASSES KNOWLEDGE... it really IS ...COMPLETELY, ...GOOD NEWS!

Forsaking the doom & gloom approach, in which most find permeating themselves and their report of GOD to others...

PeacE...
...willieH  :icon_king:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hi Willie,

Just for clarification,  do you believe this physical life, from birth to physical death is the lake of fire or only part of it?   Does this extend after this physical life or is it over when we die on this earth?

[Taffy]

GUYS

Be Nice,..lets have a GOOD healthy discussion....you bring out the BEST and worst of you,..you BOTH KNOW this....

:icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

[martincisneros]

Be Nice,..lets have a GOOD healthy discussion....you bring out the BEST and worst of you,..you BOTH KNOW this....

That's one of the reasons I've jumped into this one as far as I have, so that I could keep additional ideas on the table so that it doesn't degenerate into a tit-for-tat.  In fairness to Craig, Willie, I recently quoted Hosea 13:14 and Zechariah 9:11 in support as passages for deliverance from Hell.  If Craig didn't see that or take that as a belief in temporary [afterlife] Hell on my part, it wouldn't be hard for others to have taken me that way if they hadn't seen my other posts on Gehenna, Sheol, Hades, Matthew 25's judgment, 1Corinthians 5 judgment by fire, Tartarus, and the Lake of Fire, which I'm seeing as easily divided between judgments over wrong beliefs/paradigms/teachings and our works.  I'm having serious questions about any of that related to the next life when I see what the judgments are, what they're about, and how weak of an argument for punishment's duration that even "ages of ages" is.  The fire isn't physical, as is easily observed by comparing the Greek between fire passages related to judgment and the fire passage when Peter was warming his hands on the night that Jesus was arrested.  If the fire isn't physical, then why it's related to another age or location [beyond this world] is beyond my comprehension since I can't find specific Scriptures teaching that.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother Paul   :dsunny:

Hi Willie,

Just for clarification,  do you believe this physical life, from birth to physical death is the lake of fire or only part of it?   Does this extend after this physical life or is it over when we die on this earth?

I believe THIS LIFE alone, is the LAKE of FIRE... and that the only thing which remains for anyone, is to be raised CLOTHED in CHRIST finding the RICHES (Rom 2:4 / Rev 3:18) in that "clothing"... OR... to be raised in the SHAME of CHRIST-LESS misrepresentation of Him, or purposed disregard and ignorance of Him...

Either way, there is no TORMENTING FIRE which shall burn anyone... rather, the PASSIONATE, FORGIVING and TENDER LOVE of GOD... welcoming home, the myriads of prodigals, ...wiping away the tears of their GOD GIVEN, (Rom 2:4) repentent sorrow, from their eyes, all to the JOY of those witnessing,  ...the kings which actually KNEW Him, and HE THEM, while in THIS LIFE, ...the LAKE of FIRE... to the EVERLASTING  GLORY of the KING of kings, ...JESUS CHRIST...

Hope that answers your question brother P...  :cloud9:

PeacE...
...willieH  :icon_king:

[Taffy]

willieH: Hi brother Paul   :dsunny:

Hi Willie,

Just for clarification,  do you believe this physical life, from birth to physical death is the lake of fire or only part of it?   Does this extend after this physical life or is it over when we die on this earth?

I believe THIS LIFE alone, is the LAKE of FIRE... and that the only thing which remains for anyone, is to be raised CLOTHED in CHRIST finding the RICHES (Rom 2:4 / Rev 3:18) in that "clothing"... OR... to be raised in the SHAME of CHRIST-LESS misrepresentation of Him, or purposed disregard and ignorance of Him...

Either way, there is no TORMENTING FIRE which shall burn anyone... rather, the PASSIONATE, FORGIVING and TENDER LOVE of GOD... welcoming home, the myriads of prodigals, ...wiping away the tears of their GOD GIVEN, (Rom 2:4) repentent sorrow, from their eyes, all to the JOY of those witnessing,  ...the kings which actually KNEW Him, and HE THEM, while in THIS LIFE, ...the LAKE of FIRE... to the EVERLASTING  GLORY of the KING of kings, ...JESUS CHRIST...

Hope that answers your question brother P...  :cloud9:

PeacE...
...willieH  :icon_king:

If ya dont mind....ill witness it..AMEN.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I think that gets me a better idea of where you are coming from.   I have  more questions about this lake of fire from your perspective.  

What spiritual purpose can this lake of fire serve if it is happening while we are still in physical bodies?

And what is actually happening to us in the perspective of knowing there are believers and non believers both.  

Is it possible for anyone to avoid the lake of fire and how so?

[Craig]

This is part of my recent difficulty [this year] with afterlife punishments.  While we're walking by faith and not by sight, we're not judged with the world.  That's 100% true, and how I'm taking 1Corinthians 11.  Looking at Willie's argument for a second, if there were a separation between us and the Lake of Fire, then it would be because we were judging ourselves, according to 1Corinthians 11 so that we're not judged with the world.  For me, right now, both views on this thread seem like an over-simplification in some ways.  St. Paul teaches that we reign now, and that the world abides under God's wrath now.  John's Gospel brings up the fact that the world is presently under wrath as well in the 3rd chapter, with the implication that we come out of wrath into salvation.

My view has never been expressed, every time I express it, there is a tailspin argument on the meaning of 'Fire' and so forth which has relevance but no important in describing what the Lake of Fire is. The over-simplification of what I present in rebuttal, is not my position, it is an objection to the proposed argument that we are in the Lake of Fire right now.

Things like, if we are in the Lake of Fire right now, then what happened to those who don't repent while in the Lake of Fire, this current life? They don't reap what they sow, because everyone dies in this life and there is evil in this world where a righteous man dies poor, sick, and alone; while a wicked man dies rich, healthy and with many children beside him.

So concerning Paul's writings, I agree with him. We are presently reigning now with Christ, and the world is under God's wrath now. God said to me in a vision, my wrath only abides on men while they live. So I have no objection to this Paul or the position that we reign now, and God's judgment is now.

There are just so many scenarios that are unscriptural in nature and unbiblical in practice which are a result of believing that the Lake of Fire (Second Death) is now. I already mentioned one. Another would be if someone who repents is delivered from the darkness and into the light; let us say that the believer now is not in the Lake of Fire, but prior to this, he was and endured the wrath of God up until the day they repented, that would be good and dandy, except I would then be an exception. I know I am not that special not to ever endured the world. I knew Jesus from the day I could comprehend that I was alive, and what about all the babies who were aborted or born and died in crib death? They never had a chance to repent of anything let alone commit anything worthy of the wrath of God. We know that the Kingdom of God belongs to the children.

If someone actually would have a civil conversation and actually extrapolate each instance of dissension for agreement and understanding, we may actually get somewhere with the discussion. I cannot explain what I know, because I am so aware of what it is I know I don't know where a person needs to start in order for me to explain. Though, some will think this is pride, that I am not willing to learn from them, this is quite the opposite, I learn much from them despite our disagreements there are some profound things people have learned that I did not know and I do openly accept them.

Craig

[Craig]

willieH: Hi brother Paul   :dsunny:

Hi Willie,

Just for clarification,  do you believe this physical life, from birth to physical death is the lake of fire or only part of it?   Does this extend after this physical life or is it over when we die on this earth?

I believe THIS LIFE alone, is the LAKE of FIRE... and that the only thing which remains for anyone, is to be raised CLOTHED in CHRIST finding the RICHES (Rom 2:4 / Rev 3:18) in that "clothing"... OR... to be raised in the SHAME of CHRIST-LESS misrepresentation of Him, or purposed disregard and ignorance of Him...

Either way, there is no TORMENTING FIRE which shall burn anyone... rather, the PASSIONATE, FORGIVING and TENDER LOVE of GOD... welcoming home, the myriads of prodigals, ...wiping away the tears of their GOD GIVEN, (Rom 2:4) repentent sorrow, from their eyes, all to the JOY of those witnessing,  ...the kings which actually KNEW Him, and HE THEM, while in THIS LIFE, ...the LAKE of FIRE... to the EVERLASTING  GLORY of the KING of kings, ...JESUS CHRIST...

Hope that answers your question brother P...  :cloud9:

PeacE...
...willieH  :icon_king:

I don't disagree with most of it, only the part that you actually think that what you explained is the Lake of Fire.

[Taffy]

What spiritual purpose can this lake of fire serve if it is happening while we are still in physical bodies?

Hi Paul...for mine if I may....

The Lake ,which is Christ ,as is the Fire we are Baptised in...serves ONE purpose...the purification of the Heart and Mind...Christianity is Not something WE DO...its what we are...

The lake , like the sword ,divides and seperates the Flesh from the Spirit, its Purpose is to RE-- VEAL,the HIDDEN man of the Heart,..which Paul calls the Mystery of the AGES...Christ Lies asleep In the HEART of  all MEN,...( wow,,,now thats a Can of worms)Scripture speaks accordingly...one  who is ASLEEP, or OR SLEEPING or dead to HIM, which willie notes as OUR spiritual DEATH.....

so  ,THROUGH the death of the Flesh..just as the Lake which kills flesh , EACH soul will have ITS PART in it...will Live In HIS LIFE...the LAKE seperates THE FLESH from spirit....


Taffy

[laren]

...to be raised in the SHAME of CHRIST-LESS misrepresentation of Him, or purposed disregard and ignorance of Him...

this part is what I would call the LOF. 

[Taffy]

If someone actually would have a civil conversation and actually extrapolate each instance of dissension for agreement and understanding, we may actually get somewhere with the discussion. I cannot explain what I know, because I am so aware of what it is I know I don't know where a person needs to start in order for me to explain. Though, some will think this is pride, that I am not willing to learn from them, this is quite the opposite, I learn much from them despite our disagreements there are some profound things people have learned that I did not know and I do openly accept them.

Craig Bro,,Tis a discussion, Like willie has done and presented by word of scripture ,his Views ..Please Bro ,do the same...

if By presenting , then as paul has done to Willie ,asking questions..then Bro, others can do likewise with what you propose..tis an OPEN court,.... :icon_flower:

[laren]

This imo, is the lake of fire:


Jer 23:39  Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:

Jer 23:40  And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

[Taffy]

Martin..tis 3am here time for me beauty sleep  :happy3:   ...you got the Night shift Bro :Sparkletooth:

[Craig]

If someone actually would have a civil conversation and actually extrapolate each instance of dissension for agreement and understanding, we may actually get somewhere with the discussion. I cannot explain what I know, because I am so aware of what it is I know I don't know where a person needs to start in order for me to explain. Though, some will think this is pride, that I am not willing to learn from them, this is quite the opposite, I learn much from them despite our disagreements there are some profound things people have learned that I did not know and I do openly accept them.

Craig Bro,,Tis a discussion, Like willie has done and presented by word of scripture ,his Views ..Please Bro ,do the same...

if By presenting , then as paul has done to Willie ,asking questions..then Bro, others can do likewise with what you propose..tis an OPEN court,.... :icon_flower:

I do many times, most of what WillieH brings up is not relevant to the Lake of Fire. He doesn't want to learn, he wants to 'teach'. So he won't answer any questions I have for him, nor will he agree on any statements I make that are correct. It is how he stays in control, and I don't play that game anymore. If he wants to have a discussion, he needs to stop with the many questions fallacy and discuss each point as they come up. Otherwise, I am having discussion with Martin, Paul and yourself, and totally ignoring what Willie has to say because most of it means nothing to the discussion.

[Craig]

This imo, is the lake of fire:


Jer 23:39  Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:

Jer 23:40  And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

Yep.

[laren]

Heb 12:18  For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

Heb 12:22  But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Heb 12:23  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Heb 12:24  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Heb 12:28  Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:


Heb 12:25  See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Heb 12:29  For our God is a consuming fire.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

I think that gets me a better idea of where you are coming from.   I have  more questions about this lake of fire from your perspective.  

What spiritual purpose can this lake of fire serve if it is happening while we are still in physical bodies?

We are amidst the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL which has everything to do with SPIRITUAL understanding, and gives differentiation between the two while in the Flesh...

CHRIST was made in FLESH (Heb 2:9), for the specific reason of suffering of DEATH... that He might CONQUER IT, for ALL...

It was SPIRITUAL LIGHT shining amidst SPIRITUAL DARKNESS...

Suffering is PART of the COMPLETION process bro... (Heb 2:10) ...and we ALL follow CHRIST in suffering, which occurs HERE and NOW... It did FOR HIM, ...it DOES for US...

By SUFFERING, we are made in HIS LIKENESS...

And what is actually happening to us in the perspective of knowing there are believers and non believers both.

In order for BELIEF/FAITH to be displayed, DISBELIEF/FAITHLESSNESS must contrast it... 

GOD concludes ALL to UNBELIEF... (Rom 11:32)... that MERCY might be shown to ALL...

The reason for UNBELIEF is to display the MERCY of GOD...

Is it possible for anyone to avoid the lake of fire and how so?

NO... :mnah:

ALL have been concluded as UNBELIEVERS (Rom 11:32) which is one of several qualifying aspects for participation in the LAKE of FIRE (Rev 21:8)

God is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS... all that IS, is OF HIM (1 Cor 8:6 / Col 1:16-20 / John 1:3)


PeacE...
...willieH  :icon_king:

[willieH]

I do many times, most of what WillieH brings up is not relevant to the Lake of Fire.

Opinion...  :thumbdown:

He doesn't want to learn, he wants to 'teach'. So he won't answer any questions I have for him, nor will he agree on any statements I make that are correct.

:grave:  You are the one not answering questions...  and ALWAYS,  the ONE on TENTMAKER, which ALWAYS refuses to "learn"  :laughing7:

It is how he stays in control, and I don't play that game anymore. If he wants to have a discussion, he needs to stop with the many questions fallacy and discuss each point as they come up.

Making up rules as he goes...  :laughing7:  the "many questions fallacy?"  Please...  :thumbdown:  As if asking many questions is a FALLACY...  :pointlaugh:

Otherwise, I am having discussion with Martin, Paul and yourself, and totally ignoring what Willie has to say because most of it means nothing to the discussion.

:Yeahright:  Displayed by yet another meaningless, Scriptureless, answerless post...

I am quite content not to discuss with you...  :myahoo:  ...for you only know how to talk,  :blahgreen: :blah:  :director: :help:

And remain as always,  deaf of ear...  :sigh:

PeacE...
...willieH  :icon_king:

[Craig]

Whether I post Scripture or not, WillieH consistently finds some excuse not to accept it. In the beginning, that is all I did was present my opinion with Scripture, and I was accused of posting too much Scripture and now I am being accused of having no point because my posts are without Scripture.

as if asking many questions is a FALLACY...

I am not making anything up, you just demonstrate you don't know what you are talking about.

Many Question Fallacy: The truth of A is assumed within the original premise about A. Thus A is not really proven by the argument. This may occur through a simple statement or via a more complex set of statements that go around in a circle and eventually 'prove' the original statement to be true.

You are the one not answering questions... 

Actually I am one of the few who actually addresses and answers most questions. I just do not participate in the many questions fallacy. If a question stands alone without presupposition, then it is answered. If a question is followed by more questions and statements, then it is not a question and does not get addressed.

am quite content not to discuss with you......for you only know how to talk,

Once again, you prove my point. I pointed this out earlier, you just confirm it. Not many have problems with how I communicate. The reason this is happening is like clockwork.

[Molly]

I knew Jesus from the day I could comprehend that I was alive,

Me, too.  But I have friends who are only starting to know him recently, well into adulthood.

So, are you saying that the wrath of God is the default position for those who don't know Jesus?

And, those who do know Jesus are judged in this life? (which is more a case of being guided?)

Then,what happens to both groups after death?

Why is it a lake?  I'm sure you've noticed the Greek word--limne--meaning 'by nearness to shore', from the root word meaning 'safe harbor.'

[Craig]

I knew Jesus from the day I could comprehend that I was alive,

Me, too.  But I have friends who are only starting to know him recently, well into adulthood.

So, are you saying that the wrath of God is the default position for those who don't know Jesus?

And, those who do know Jesus are judged in this life? (which is more a case of being guided?)

Then,what happens to both groups after death?

Why is it a lake?  I'm sure you've noticed the Greek word--limne--meaning 'by nearness to shore', from the root word meaning 'safe harbor.'

I am not saying that at all. That is what WillieH is claiming by saying that we are in the Lake of Fire now. Notice how I am accused of not answering questions, yet always address and answer them when I can; but when I present questions and dilemma's WillieH does not address or answer them. Ask WillieH if he believes that the wrath of God is the default position for those who don't know Jesus.

Molly, I have addressed the rootword fallacy concerning lake. It is a lake, not a safe harbor. However, you make a good point. If God is the Lake of Fire, why was it not called the Ocean of Fire or the Sea of Fire, because that would represent God better than a lake.

[Molly]

This imo, is the lake of fire:


Jer 23:39  Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:

Jer 23:40  And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

yikes! :mshock: