The Revealing of Jesus Christ

[Loveroftruth]

It opens up the Bible in a totally new way, everything suddenly makes sense  :thumbsup:

[Dallas]

Amen loveroftruth

[waitinontheLamb]

It opens up the Bible in a totally new way, everything suddenly makes sense  :thumbsup:

Wow. That is an overstatement. Preterism is one view that makes you spiritualize way too much literal teaching in the Bible. No way.

[Our Wings are Burning]

Wow. That is an overstatement.

Perhaps... however...

Preterism is one view that makes you spiritualize way too much literal teaching in the Bible. No way.

I'm not sure I understand this.  This is actually the first time I've read about Preterism, but believing that when Jesus says, "Behold, I am coming soon," He actually means soon as we understand it, not soon as in "approximately two millennia from now," seems to be the more literal teaching to me.

That's just my views so far, I'll definitely have to do more study on this subject to be convinced, however.

[Molly]

When Paul wrote to the Romans, he advised them that the hour had come for them to realize that their salvation was much sooner than originally expected (Rom. 13:11). Then, he told them that it would not be long before God crushed Satan under their feet (Rom. 16:20). James instructed the people to be patient until the coming of the Lord. Next, he stated that Jesus and the Judgment were coming soon (Jas. 5:7-9). Paul informed the Philippians that the Lord's coming was near (Php. 4:5). The author of Hebrews wrote that the Old Covenant was in the process of passing away and that it would shortly be abolished (Heb. 8:13).

20The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.
      The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

--Romans 16


So, who or what is satan according to this?  Or, how was he crushed?

I also find this a very interesting point of view.   I need to study more about the culture of the Jews at that time and how the events of 70 ad changed it.  But, one thing that seems clear, although this was not the first time Jerusalem was destroyed and the Jews scattered, it was the last time the temple was ever in existence, and the last time (I think) that they performed animal sacrifice.  It seems like it was indeed the end of an era.   It would also mean that again the rapture ready Christians have it wrong, because to rebuild the temple and return to animal sacrifice with their red heiffer would mean going backwards into the ministry of death.

7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

--2 Cor 4



I'd also like to hear or discuss how this fits in with other end times prophecy.  What do we have to look forward to if this piece of it has already happened?

[laren]

if any are interested in exploring more the preterist universalist view, this forum I belong to is good.  those there are very willing to discuss their view.

www.talk-grace.com



and this thread there i found interesting, re: what's left if preterism is true?  some are partial and some full preterists.

http://www.talk-grace.com/showthread.php?t=923

[Dallas]

But, one thing that seems clear, although this was not the first time Jerusalem was destroyed and the Jews scattered, it was the last time the temple was ever in existence, and the last time (I think) that they performed animal sacrifice.  It seems like it was indeed the end of an era.

-molly

This is an excellent point.

[SeekerSA]

As for end times check this out:

http://www.bible.ca/pre-date-setters.htm

Seems this has been the mindset for 2 millenia

[Loveroftruth]

I'm not sure I understand this.  This is actually the first time I've read about Preterism, but believing that when Jesus says, "Behold, I am coming soon," He actually means soon as we understand it, not soon as in "approximately two millennia from now," seems to be the more literal teaching to me.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

It is the "literal approach" as you say. The other is the more spiritual approach.

[rosered]

  This is a great thread and have been dropped  lol
  I was hoping to bring it  back up  , its awesome vagabond! 
and many contributions , thanks all , this last one confirms much to me

  I just want to say  that this  chapter in Isaiah 33  being a very bold prophet according to Paul , seems to speak to Him  in the same Spirit of Faith Jesus Christ ,and as to us even
Isa 33:10 ¶ Now will I rise, saith the LORD; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.  
Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, [as] fire, shall devour you.
 
And the people shall be [as] the burnings of lime: [as] thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire. Hear, ye [that are] far off, what I have done; and, ye [that are] near, acknowledge my might.
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? Hewbrew4168 mowqed
1) a burning mass, burning, hearth
  He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;He shall dwell on high: his place of defence [shall be] the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters [shall be] sure.

Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

it  may not make any sense to some , but for me it is confirmation
  of the lake of fire being many peoples tongues and nations    found  burning in  Christs Body ,  being purged  and cleansed ,  as Peter knew
and confirms in  GODS WORD , dont think it strange  that  some fiery trial has come upon you IT  is to test our FAITH and perfect it

  the end would be soul salvation  with His Same Spirit    perfecting this fruit of our lips ,  Honoring God   with praise and  glory to Him

here it is  for me anyways . love rose
 
If any man speak, [let him speak] as the oracles of God; if any man minister, [let him do it] as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

  1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see [him] not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls.

[willieH]

willieH: Hello dear brothers  :icon_king: and sisters  :icon_queen:

I have started this thread in order to discontinue the hijacking of the "CAN YOU EXPLAIN" thread (which is my fault!  :mblush:)

This thread is entitled: 

LAKE OF FIRE...Part of The Revelation of JESUS CHRIST...

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
willieH: Hi Craig... :hithere:

There is SPIRITUAL observation necessary to see the LAKE of FIRE bro... Just as the Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL contained BOTH... yet most Literally/Naturally -- see only that EVIL was unveiled to men...

JESUS CHRIST ...IS... the ALPHA ...and... OMEGA... He is BOTH entities simultaneously... much as was the TREE in the Garden BOTH entities (good & evil) simulataneously...

"Chronology" is not an issue in SPIRITUAL vision...

(1)  The Knowledge of Good & Evil, is known simulataneously
(2)  JESUS CHRIST is the END and BEGINNING simultaneously.

The LAKE of FIRE is PART of the REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST... which IS revealed in THIS LIFE... (chronologically speaking 2000 "years" ago according to TIME observation,  ...but IS revealed at and from the BEGINNING, ...and IS revealed at and from the END)

THIS LIFE, ...IS... the Lake of Fire...

I think it might be for us believers,--Judgment begins at the house of God-- but I don't know about the others.

I see a lot of wicked seeming to prosper. :dontknow:



1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Believers don't go through the Lake of Fire. This cannot be the Lake of Fire, because it happens last.

I disagree... There is no Scripture which states that "believers" do NOT go through and/or partake of the Lake of Fire... Please note them if you can...

These are the verses which mention this "entity" (Rev 19:20 / Rev20:10 / Rev 20:14-15 / Rev 21:8)

NONE of these verses state that "believers" do not participate in the "Lake of Fire"  :dontknow:

On the contrary... the list which is made in Rev 21:8... includes ALL MEN... for there is NO MAN which can be DISattached from one or more of these:  Unbelieving, fearful,liars, abominable, murderers, whoremongers, idolators, sorecerers (drugs)

Just in this verse alone (Rom 11:32) ...qualifies ALL for the LAKE of FIRE!

However, lets break it down further:

1. Anyone who has ever "LIED" is an eligible participant...
2. Anyone who has ever KILLED or been angry with a brother without cause  ("murderer") is an eligible participant...
3.  Anyone who has ever been FEARFUL is an eligible participant...
4.  Anyone who has ever LUSTED after another is an eligible participant...
5.  Anyone who has ever IDOLIZED ANYTHING, is an eligible participant...
6.  Anyone who has ever taken DRUGS, is an eligible participant...
7.  Anyone who has NOT BELIEVED at one time or another, is an eligible participant...
8.  Anyone who has ever involved him/herself in ANYTHING which God considers ABOMINABLE (all of the above) is an eligible participant...

Several of this list in the "Revelation" appear in:

Prov 6:16-17  These six doth YHVH hate, yea SEVEN are an ABOMINATION unto Him... a PROUD LOOK (#7), ...a LYING TONGUE (#1), ...and HANDS that SHED (#2) innocent blood, ...an heart that DEVISETH WICKED IMAGINATIONS (#4), ...feet that are swift RUNNING to MISCHIEF (#5), ...a FALSE WITNESS that speaketh LIES (#1), ...and he that SOWETH DISCORD (#3 / "ET") among brethren....


I see your observation that the Lake of Fire, ..."happens last"...  Is found viewing a SYMBOLIC entity which is UNCONFINED and (IS) ETERNAL,  ...from a CONFINED (WILL BE) and FINITE... angle or observation... ("TIME chronology")

The Book of Revelation is not a book of "chronology"... it is the REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST... which is an ETERNAL entity, being revealed as He sees fit from His ETERNAL perspective, ...within the framework of His Creation, which is in TIME...

From its END to its BEGINNING (alpha/omega)... as HE IS... which state of BEING, is not associated with chronology... rather ALWAYS IS...

GOD's WORD - being ETERNAL, is NOT confined to CHRONOLOGY... for It ALWAYS IS... and IS revealed or IS veiled during and THROUGHOUT, the course of TIME...

The book of the Revelation of JESUS CHRIST, is not a "this happens" then "that happens" report.   RELIGION has created this error...

Believe what you will, Chronological viewpoint is just another "RELIGION born darkness" ...within the veiled vision of Babylon...

There is no "LAST" thing that "happens"... CONCLUSION IS BEGINNING for they are THE SAME ENTITY:   

JESUS CHRIST, ...IS THE BEGINNING ...AND... IS the END...  "the ALPHA, ...AND... the OMEGA... ARE, ...ONE & the SAME...  :yes:

(Rev 1:8 / Rev 1:11 / Rev 22:13)

Rev 1:8    I AM Alpha and Omega, the BEGINNING ...AND... the ENDING...

Rev 1:11   I AM Alpha and Omega, the FIRST ...AND... the LAST...

Rev 22:13  I AM... Alpha and Omega, the BEGINNING ...AND... the END, ...the FIRST ...AND... the LAST...



(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/117/117193tdajxe3wh8.gif)

PeacE...
...willieH  :icon_king:

[WhiteWings]

Hi Willie!  :HeartThrob:

I have a really hard time understanding what you wrote. I'm not even sure the next questions have relevance in this thread  :umnick:

Are you saying we are now living in LoF?
Does that mean we are already dead?
Why so much sinning during this correctional period?

Willie rescue me from darness  :teaching:

[martincisneros]

I think what throws a lot of people from this passage is the fact, that again appealing to chronology, Revelation 20 implies bodily resurrection prior to the Lake of Fire judgment.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi WW... :hithere:

Nice to seeya!  :cloud9:

Hi Willie!  :HeartThrob:

I have a really hard time understanding what you wrote. I'm not even sure the next questions have relevance in this thread  :umnick:

Are you saying we are now living in LoF?

Sorry that my post was not clear to you... I did not mean to go over anyone's head... guess I could've simplified... sorry...  :mblush:

but to answer this question...

YES, (in my observation) this IS the Lake of FIRE...

Does that mean we are already dead?

ALL are DEAD in the Spirit, until CHRIST is revealed within them (the inward man - Rom 7:22)

This is done by the DRAWING of your heart to the SON (Word of God)... accomplished by the Father... (John 6:44)

Why so much sinning during this correctional period?

It is part of the process in which GOD, is WORKING ALL THINGS... (Eph 1:11)

We are MARRED (sin) in the HAND of the POTTER (Jer 18:4)... also... we ARE HIS WORKMANSHIP (Eph 2:10)... in which TWO VESSELS are made of the SAME LUMP (Rom 9:21) one for DISHONOR (flesh), ...one for HONOR... Children of GOD...

Our pathways are ordained of GOD...  We are become as IS HE, by the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil... (Gen 3:22)  which KNOWLEDGE is gained, by the application of INFORMATION to EXPERIENCE...

In this process, we become AS is GOD... having the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil... prior to our SIN... only GOD had this KNOWLEDGE... but in making us in HIS IMAGE... it is necessary that we TOO, have this KNOWLEDGE...

I hope I have helped you gain some insight, or at least a new view for your  consideration, as you continue to seek Father...  :cloud9:

I do not try to convince anyone of anything!  ...that is GOD's Work... I teach what He has given me... in hopes that in my clumsy way, He might USE me as a tool to help another such as yourself...  :friendstu:

PeacE...
...willieH  :icon_king:

[Craig]

I think what throws a lot of people from this passage is the fact, that again appealing to chronology, Revelation 20 implies bodily resurrection prior to the Lake of Fire judgment.

The Lake of Fire is part of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. That is not in dispute, so I have no idea why it is even the title of this. The issue WillieH makes is that we are presently living in the Lake of Fire, that is in dispute.

The Lake of Fire is Second Death. Second Death has no power over those who trust in the Lord. If it has no power, it has no power period; that means, no power to correct, no power to lift up and edify, no power to destroy, no power at all. There is no way around what both Martin and I brought up, scripturally, biblically, logically, reasonably or even emotionally. To say we are living in the Lake of Fire is not just is not the case. The Lake of Fire is final Judgment for those who continued to live according to their sinful natures, for those who did not continue to trust in the Lord (described as keeping their robes clean in the blood of Christ). There is no way around what both Martin and I brought up so simply which says this life, or present age, is NOT the Lake of Fire.

[martincisneros]

I'm really glad that we're getting into this 'cause I've been going back and forth on this issue, sorta seeing both sides, yet still having issues with both sides.

Craig,

Is inheriting the Kingdom of God a daily thing or an eschatological event?  My reading of St. Paul indicates that he's saying to me that we reign now, which would indicate to me that while we're practicing such sins, as he lists in a few places, we're cutting ourselves off from the inheritance that's already rightfully ours.  St. Paul said that wrath on the children of disobedience is revealed from heaven now.  Ephesians 2 says that while you're indulging in the carnal appetites of the flesh and of the mind that you're a child of wrath right now.  But God Who is rich in mercy...

Matthew 25 indicates a reigning of the righteous when all are gathered to Him, yet Jesus said He'd draw all men to Himself when He was lifted up out of the earth in John 12.  He seemed to make His lifting up out of the earth the eschatological event that would draw all of mankind to Himself rather than His return to the earth.

This is part of my recent difficulty [this year] with afterlife punishments.  While we're walking by faith and not by sight, we're not judged with the world.  That's 100% true, and how I'm taking 1Corinthians 11.  Looking at Willie's argument for a second, if there were a separation between us and the Lake of Fire, then it would be because we were judging ourselves, according to 1Corinthians 11 so that we're not judged with the world.  For me, right now, both views on this thread seem like an over-simplification in some ways.  St. Paul teaches that we reign now, and that the world abides under God's wrath now.  John's Gospel brings up the fact that the world is presently under wrath as well in the 3rd chapter, with the implication that we come out of wrath into salvation.

And as you brought up, the Second Death has absolutely zero power over those who overcome, and St. John calls our faith the victory that overcomes the world in 1John.  And Romans 10 says that faith comes by [hearing and hearing] by the Word of God.

[Taffy]

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

THIS AS ALWAYS intrigued me,....Their PART....Just what ""part"" would that BE.... :laughing7:,

seems Paul after the Flesh only KNEW IN """"PART"""""


1Cr 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


Doesnt the SWORD cut Into TWO"""""""PARTS""""""""""""

nough of me...

baptised WITH FIRE?....SEEMS like Christ to me, could this be the SAME FIRE willie talks about..or are these two different fires....that being the LAKE...or does this fire have two different purposes...sorta getting complicated aint it :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother M... :hithere:

I see what you are saying below...

I think what throws a lot of people from this passage is the fact, that again appealing to chronology, Revelation 20 implies bodily resurrection prior to the Lake of Fire judgment.

"IMPLIES" is the keyword here bro...  :dunno:

Rev 20:12 notes that the books were opened and that ALL stood before Him, great and small... but it does not say they STOOD before Him in the SAME MOMENT...  :dontknow:

Our LIVES are LIVED as OPEN BOOKS, ...before Him... Scripture notes over and again that this is so... as noted by DAVID:  Ps 139:7-8

What it amount to is... DOES any portion of the REVEALING of CHRIST, depend on TIME, in order to be manifest?  Or is "LAKE of FIRE judgment", NOW as HE stated it was:

John 12:31  NOW is the JUDGEMENT OF THIS WORLD... NOW shall the prince of THIS WORLD be CAST OUT.

JESUS CHRIST is the SAME, yesterday, today and forever... He also, SIMULTANEOUSLY,

...IS... the BEGINNING and the END... of ALL THINGS...

This means that SIMULTANEOUSLY, ...HE... is BOTH in ALL THINGS...

As men continue to observe from a (chronological) TIME perspective, ...SPIRITUAL perspective is LOST...

For instance... the LAMB SLAIN from the foundation of the WORLD... IS... a NOW thing, ...not a "was" or "will be" thing...

From finite or TIME perspective CHRIST's death had a TIME "chronology"... and was manifest in TIME, 2000yrs ago... however... This TIME--chronological observation, ...is NOT the SPIRITUAL and ETERNAL perspective which NOTES

Rev 13:8  And ALL that dwell upon the earth SHALL WORSHIP Him, whose names ARE NOT written in the book of the life of the Lamb ...SLAIN FROM the FOUNDATION of the WORLD...

SPIRITUAL perspective is an ETERNAL UNCREATED entity,  ...and is NOT found in LITERAL/Natural perspective which notes its persepctive with "chronology" in a CREATED entity called TIME...

I'm sorry if this might sound a bit confusing to some... but to note SPIRITUAL concepts in words, is sometimes a difficult endeavor...  :mblush:

If one is to gain SPIRITUAL understanding... we each must abandon what we see with our eyes... and hear with our ears... the OUTWARD MAN, ...and begin to watch and listen with the heart... the INWARD MAN...

The heart KNOWS no TIME, nor does it KNOW chronology... it is embedded in the ETERNAL LOVE of CHRIST which DWARFS and COMPLETELY passes (temporal) KNOWLEDGE...

(Eph 3:16-19 ) and HAS no BEGINNING or END, as is commonly found in TIME and in its "little brother", ...CHRONOLOGY...

PeacE...
...willieH  :icon_king:

[martincisneros]

For instance... the LAMB SLAIN from the foundation of the WORLD... IS... a NOW thing, ...not a "was" or "will be" thing...

This comes into crystal clarity over the Bread and Cup.  I stand before Him on the Cross daily, while at the same time communing with the Risen Conquerer of Death and the Unseen.

[martincisneros]

baptised WITH FIRE?....SEEMS like Christ to me, could this be the SAME FIRE willie talks about..or are these two different fires....that being the LAKE...or does this fire have two different purposes..

I've even heard Rod Parsley, an ET preacher from Columbus, Ohio, say that it's the exact same fire and that the only difference is the condition of the heart.

[Taffy]

baptised WITH FIRE?....SEEMS like Christ to me, could this be the SAME FIRE willie talks about..or are these two different fires....that being the LAKE...or does this fire have two different purposes..

I've even heard Rod Parsley, an ET preacher from Columbus, Ohio, say that it's the exact same fire and that the only difference is the condition of the heart.

Im asking Martin , not enquiring who else said it...got an opinion yourself?

[martincisneros]

Im asking Martin , not enquiring who else said it...got an opinion yourself?

There's no question to me that it's the exact same fire.  I'm just startled that ETers can see and believe the same thing, while still drawing an opposite conclusion.  That's the good ol' KJV for you, as well as long standing tradition of nonsense about the "fate" of the wicked.

[Taffy]

Im asking Martin , not enquiring who else said it...got an opinion yourself?

There's no question to me that it's the exact same fire.  I'm just startled that ETers can see and believe the same thing, while still drawing an opposite conclusion.  That's the good ol' KJV for you, as well as long standing tradition of nonsense about the "fate" of the wicked.

yall have to forgive me matey...I really pay no interest to any preacher out there...MR P inc..who ever he is,,Thanks for clarifying Bro :icon_flower:

so, could we conclude that Christ is this CONSUMING fire,which is Now ,and which was ,and which is to COME,being the same Fire , named the lake of fire...if this be so ?what willie suggests ,The Lake being Christ AS WELL, is NOW....simple enough for simple minds like me...

:icon_flower:

[Taffy]

I'm sorry if this might sound a bit confusing to some... but to note SPIRITUAL concepts in words, is sometimes a difficult endeavor...

ya dont say...just love that saying...Steve Martin\ John Candy..Cars , trains and automobiles something like that

[martincisneros]

so, could we conclude that Christ is this CONSUMING fire,which is Now ,and which was ,and which is to COME,being the same Fire , named the lake of fire...if this be so ?what willie suggests ,The Lake being Christ AS WELL, is NOW....simple enough for simple minds like me...

This being the case, where's the need for afterlife punishment?  The difference between how the Lake relates to us and how it relates to the world is based upon the condition of the heart.  Ananias and Sapphira evidently weren't overcomers when they lied.  They weren't in a state of inheriting the Kingdom of God.  And they were hurt by the Second Death which is the penalty of all sins unrepented of by the world, or by believers after the Blood atonement of Christ has been received, but they're continuing in willful sin.  St. Paul indicated that when we judge ourselves we are chastened so that we're not judged with the world.  And the implication was that sickness and death as a result of unrepented of sin is being judged with the world.  Not all physical death would be being judged with the world, but the particular deaths that St. Paul indicated in 1Corinthians 11 from not rightly discerning the Lord's Body and from not judging ourselves when we've sinned (i.e. as being in the wrong and repenting, or maintaining good faith with a previous act of repentance per 1John 1:7-9.  If you've previously repented of the same thing, just rejoice in your cleansing from all unrighteousness rather than spending time developing a sin consciousness).  Again, I'm just looking at St. Paul's comments in 1Corinthians 11 and thinking "if words mean anything, then..." regarding sin, righteousness, and the judgment to come (which is a moment by moment thing in this world).