The Revealing of Jesus Christ

[SeekerSA]

Jillie

Revelation is seen traditionally as a future event, it is a prophesy and was written to the seven churches.  The opening talks of something very soon and ends off in the same manner.

Revelations is symbolic and parabolic.  You cannot really take anything literal written there.  IMO it is for each and everyone of us and it talks of this age many times.  The futurists have taken it to mean something that will literally happen somewhere in the future.

A question or seven:

As regards the book of Revelation specifically: ok, I get that the Christians are resurrected, and that there is reigning with Christ for a thousand years while the enemy is bound. No clue what it means, but I'm perfectly willing to accept that it's what will happen. Rev 20:4-6.

The 1000 years can be symbolic of here and now, the 1st resurrection can be our rebirth.

Then, after the 1000 years, the rest of the dead are resurrected. The Enemy is released from prison and deceives the nations, who surround the saints in their camp, v9, and God consumes them in fire. Then the Devil is thrown into the lake of fire, and the false prophet, because he deceived the nations.

I'm beginning to wonder how much of the symbolism is symbolism for then, as opposed to now, but that's a side issue.

If the 2nd resurrection is that from our physical death, we shall see the rest of the dead resurrected.  The LoF now will make sense in that at physical death, neither sin nor false teachings will have anymore hold on you.

Anyway, Devil consumed in lake of fire.

Then, v11, great white throne, and judgement according to the works recorded in the books, v12.

Then Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire, and those whose names were not in the Book of Life (v14 and 15).

The is only one name in the BoL and that is Christ.  In Him there is no sin, thus the names refer to those names we give to sin and not the people who do them.

Then there's a new Heaven and a new earth, (21v1) and God will make His home among mortals, those who conquer v7. The lake of fire is for the liars, polluted, etc. (v8) Nothing unclean will enter the city, but only those in the book of life (v27).

Now, there are numerous arguments one can make from the Bible as a whole for universal reconciliation, but I'm really not seeing it here. I suppose one might wonder about the leaves of the tree of life, which are for the healing of the nations, (22v2), but that's not exactly clear. Nor am I sure about the gates never being shut, because...well, who's outside to enter it? There's nothing which suggests that the second death is anything but...well, permanent. Because...well, no more death here. That's it finished.

If you had a vision of heaven, words would never describe the experience, John does his best here to articulate what he saw.  The gates need no locking as sin is not resurrected with us.  We are judged on works hence the books plural.

There's nothing there(you can make your case elsewhere) but there's nothing contained in these verses which suggests anything other than annihilation for those whose names are not in the book of Life.

The names are not John, Mary and Joe.  They are names for sins.

Begin supposition: Even if they came out of the fire (which isn't mentioned anywhere here) then they still could not enter the city, even though the gates are open. Not because they have sin any more (because the fire would burn it away, I guess) but because in spite of that, their names are NOT in the book of life. (v27)

They do not come out as they require no resurrection.

See my problem here? The lake of fire, the second death, seems to come as an end in the book of Revelation. At least because I can't see a mention of those who went into it at any later point.

This is a very simplistic answer I gave but this is the way I see it now.

One thing to be aware of is, the writing style of John in revelation does not match John or the epistles.  In fact they say Revelation was written before the gospel of John.  One assumes that John was the beloved John but there is no conclusive evidence to support this.

There are two ways to read Revelation and that is

Fulfilled eschatology - Preterist
Perpetual present - applies to each one individually.

No one really has the answers, only opinions.

Blessings

[JillieRose]

Thank you, that's a very helpful...thingy. Explanation. (Go vocabulary!)

I can see the interpretation of the names not in the book of Life being the names of sins. I can't find anywhere that specifically says that, but hey, it's a sensible possibility.

One question: where does it say that it's only the name of Jesus that's written in the book? It sounds...vaguely familiar, but I can't remember where from off the top of my head.

[SeekerSA]

Well if you think about it from a perspective of the ones that do not believe in OSAS, then the many backsliders and the sins we commit would sure make the book a mess.

We are in Christ hence there is only one name Christ.  All will agree to this irrespective of their POV as it makes sense.

There is no verse apart from what Jesus said to His disciples, "...rejoice rather that your names are written in heaven"

I think all beliefs can make their case from Revelation.  Oddly enough, it is the book where most myths come from.

Tree-of-Life ----> Book-of-Life, the keyword is Life.  What did Jesus say?  Take all these versus and replace them with Christ.

Joh 1:4  In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Joh 4:14  but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst, but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Joh 5:26  For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself,

Joh 5:40  and you will not come to Me that you might have life.

Joh 6:33  For the bread of God is He who comes down from Heaven and gives life to the world.

Joh 6:48  I am the Bread of life.

Joh 6:63  It is the Spirit that makes alive, the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life.

Joh 8:12  Then Jesus spoke again to them, saying, I am the Light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Joh 10:10  The thief does not come except to steal and to kill and to destroy. I have come so that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Joh 11:25  Jesus said to her, I am the Resurrection and the Life! He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live.

Joh 14:6  Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me.

Joh 17:3  And this is life eternal, that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Joh 20:31  But these are written so that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you might have life in His name.

Blessings

[JillieRose]

Um.

I don't...I think I'm misunderstanding you. Surely 'your names are written in heaven' would mean that their names (plural) are in the book.

Maybe not.

1. Books of works are opened

2. Book of life is opened

3. Dead are judged

4. Those not in the book of life (it still seems to me like it's names plural, with those names corresponding to those in Christ. And as God knows everything anyway, surely He would know who is there and who is not, regardless of human tendencies to inconsistency?) are put through the second death.

5. Those whose names are in the book of life aren't. (Doesn't he also have our names written on His hands? Isaiah 49:16 seems to suggest something like it)

I can't see that there's evidence to state that only Christ's name is in the book. But maybe I'm just having trouble understanding your argument here.

[SeekerSA]

Think about it.  If the names in the BoL were our names, that implies we get there by something we do.

The evangelicals will lead you in a sinner's prayer, not biblical, and then say to you

IF you believe what you have just prayed, you are born again and your name is written in heaven/BoL

or

If you have prayed that prayer, you are born again, and you name is written in heaven/BOL

There are other versions, all of them are wrong.

Rom 10:9  Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
Rom 10:10  For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation.

Nowhere does it say we must confess our sins and thank Him for dying on the cross, and even if we were the only person alive........

The whole sinner's prayer is one of self condemnation.  BTW I did it too.

If being in the BoL means your name Jillie Rose, then getting there makes it dependent on you Jillie Rose.  If getting there means you are in Christ and Christ is in you, then there is only one name - CHRIST.

Everything pertaining to your salvation was of God and His will, not your will.  Salvation is a gift and one can only receive a gift, you cannot earn a gift.

I don't know why I have gone back to basics with you, maybe it is what you needed to hear.

Perhaps you are looking for answers to the LoF as you are still possibly seeing you were saved from hell.  You were not saved from hell. You are saved from your sins.

Blessings

[Kratos]

Seeker,

I don't think this is basics at all to most people. I still see our names as the ones either in or not in the Book of Life. Notice this verse:

Php 4:2  I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord.
Php 4:3  And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

Notice that names is plural and is referring to people that Paul knew. Here is another interesting verse:

Rev 3:5  He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

If words mean anything, your name can be written or blotted out fo the Book of Life.

To me, these observations have nothing to do with what we do or do not do to have our name added or removed from this Book. I, also, see the "sinner's prayer" as unbiblical as it usually does not require making Him Lord rather than just "asking Jesus into your heart".

I know that everyone is not the same and comes to knowledge of the Lord in different ways, but I like to start with the simplest interpretation of what the Bible says and build upon that. Others prefer to start with beliefs and interpret the Word in light of these beliefs. Both are valid as we all learn in different ways. I only know what works for me.

John

[SeekerSA]

Hi John

Even the verse you offered I still see one name Christ.

Whose names are written in the book of life (Christ) In Christ, Christ in us.

What I am trying to show is that this book is not one requiring updating viz additions or deletions.

and with other my fellow labourers, whose names are in the book of life Christ.

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life Christ.

Blessings

[JillieRose]

Dear SeekerSA,

I do appreciate you explaining your point of view to me. And it does make a certain degree of sense.

I understand perfectly (and agree with) the point of view that you are coming from (I think): that we are in Christ, and that He is the book of life. Right? That's fine, I have no problem with that.

But Christ being the book of life, and Christ being the name written in the book of life are two different things.

I don't believe in Hell as traditionally purported by Christians, no. So you don't need to worry.

Here's my line of reasoning: because we are in Christ (who chose us and saved us by the free gift of grace, so that none may boast) our names (plural) are in this book (in Christ). But not because of anything we have done, you understand? Being in Christ, and being in this book are the same thing. Which (I think) is what the text suggests, rather than Christ is the name in the book, which I can't see Biblical support for anywhere, but hey. I am wrong about a great many things: that this may be one of them is not surprising, no?

Anyway, this thread has been of great use as clarification of my thoughts, so thank you for your patience with a newbie!  :icon_flower:

[SpiritDriven]

Hi Group...ever notice how Scripture describes those at the first ressurection....how the second death has no power over them....

Thats because they have already died to Sin...they where the dead and buried in Christ.

Them that that goes to the second death, have too, how else they gonna die to sin eh!
The Lake of fire does a top job of totaly destroying the old vile sinner man, non glorified body they where ressurected with.....fizzel pop...died to sin at long last.

We see them again later on at the consumation, because the only thing holding them back now is death....

Who is the final enemy God does away with....


Peace

[SeekerSA]

Dear SeekerSA,
--snip--

Here's my line of reasoning: because we are in Christ (who chose us and saved us by the free gift of grace, so that none may boast) our names (plural) are in this book (in Christ). But not because of anything we have done, you understand? Being in Christ, and being in this book are the same thing. Which (I think) is what the text suggests, rather than Christ is the name in the book, which I can't see Biblical support for anywhere, but hey. I am wrong about a great many things: that this may be one of them is not surprising, no?

Anyway, this thread has been of great use as clarification of my thoughts, so thank you for your patience with a newbie!  :icon_flower:

Hi Jillie

Your reasoning is OK from a traditional stance for the traditional sense of being "saved".  The problem comes in when we say all shall be saved eventually (and there are many POV's how this may transpire, mine is just one) then that is where your POV becomes challenging.

In a nutshell, again from a traditional stance, Jesus dying for us means that ALL are saved and hence ALL will be/are in Christ.

The way I am now starting to see things, is that Jesus and Christ are not the same and Christ in us or us in Christ is IMO where the focus is changing to.  Believe me I also see dimly and do not have all the answers but much is starting to make more sense now.  I call it RIP - Revelation in Progress.

Personally I think scripture is not this big mystery that it is made out to be, the traditions and religion we have been exposed to makes it seem this way to us.

Blessings

[SeekerSA]

Hi Group...ever notice how Scripture describes those at the first resurrection....how the second death has no power over them....

Thats because they have already died to Sin...they where the dead and buried in Christ.

Them that that goes to the second death, have too, how else they gonna die to sin eh!
The Lake of fire does a top job of totaly destroying the old vile sinner man, non glorified body they where resurrected with.....fizzel pop...died to sin at long last.

We see them again later on at the consummation, because the only thing holding them back now is death....

Who is the final enemy God does away with....


Peace

Some see the first resurrection as equivalent to the rebirth/enlightenment/epiphany stage we have gone through and the first death is death to the adamic nature symbolized by baptism, burying the old man and standing up in newness with Christ.  This is followed up by the 2nd death (natural) and there is no power.  The now is the hell we go through thus on death, hades aka is cast into the LoF.

I do  not say I totally see it this way other than a possibility.  Once the LoF is no longer = to Eternal torment of hell, it becomes difficult to explain what it is.

All I can say, Revelation is very symbolic and parabolic and why oh why must the LoF become literal when all the other stuff like dragons, beasts from the sea, marks of the beast, Antichrist and false prophet all have been interpreted one way or another.

It is ironic that this single book probably has cause the most splits in churches known to man.  This is why I believe, the revelation of Revelation is something for each and every one of us individually.  It is one BIG Onion with many layers.

Blessings

[JillieRose]

It is one BIG Onion

That deserves quoting somewhere :)

"The Book of Revelation: One big onion."

Hmm. Yes, I can see where you're coming from here. I shall go think about it some more.

[Cardinal]

It is one BIG Onion

That deserves quoting somewhere :)

"The Book of Revelation: One big onion."

Hmm. Yes, I can see where you're coming from here. I shall go think about it some more.

:cloud9: You know Seeker, that is so funny (in a God way) you should describe it that way. God gave me a vision in church one time. I saw in the Spirit, a large transparent gold orb with layers like an onion in me that was alive in the Spirit. I asked Him what this was and He said it was the Christ being formed in me.

The layers are experiences of the Christ that was formed in the people of the book, that we partake of. He said if we would sup with Him, He would sup with us. To sup is to consume. As we partake of the Word that is Spirit, that Word becomes life in us, it consumes us as we consume it; it is this that changes our nature from the inside out. He also said the last layer to be formed is as Abraham, the father/beginning of our faith, the first shall be last, and the last shall be first. It is all happening inside of us, just as John the revelator, saw. Blessings to all.....

[chaela]

WillieH, this is something I've never considered before -- the here and now is the Lake of Fire?  Up to now I've heard that it's a thing of the past, or a thing of the future, but never a thing of the Now.  Can you elaborate on this?   :icon_flower:

willieH: Hi Taffy... :hithere:

The lake of fire is to destroy death and hell...is it not?
The fire that the Hebrew children were cast into did two things, burned only the wicked (those who cast them in) and the "son of man" appeared. The Children of God were infected in no way. Thus this fire was both a consuming (of evil) and a non-consuming (of good).

Same Fire with dual purpose...AMEN Vagabond....that which burns the Tares and leaves the wheat,,,...

Blessings
T

A few observances to consider my new friend...

DEATH and HELL (hades=grave) were DESTROYED at the CROSS... in THIS EARTH, in THIS TIME REALM... which IS the LAKE of FIRE...  CHRIST (2000 years ago) conquered DEATH and HELL... (1 Cor 15:54)  Death ...IS... swallowed up in victory! O ...DEATH... where is thy sting... O ...GRAVE... where is thy victory?

Though the COMPLETE manifestation of the ETERNAL has not yet been REVEALED... it ALREADY ...IS...   :myahoo:

The WRATH of GOD is NOW (Rom 1:18)... the JUDGMENT is NOW (John 12:32)... The SUFFERING is NOW (Rom 8:18)... these are ALL happening within TIME... and TIME's experience of these, is as noted in Ecc 3 and...

TIME shall END (Rev 10:6 / John 6:44 / John 12:48)

ALL have been "blotted out"... ALL have left their "first love"... ALL are subjected to the FIRE (Mk 9:49)... and ALL are WRITTEN in the BOOK of the Lamb's LIFE...  :gangel:

More to say later, gotta go...  :laughing7:

PeAcE...  :gamer:

In  JESUS...willieH   :angel4:

[Jaareshiah]

The expression, "lake of fire", is used only in four occurrences in Revelation 20. This expression is also spoken as the "fiery lake" at Revelation 19:20 and as the "lake that burns with fire and sulpher" at Revelation 21:8. In speaking of "the Devil and his angels", Jesus used the term "everlasting fire" at Matthew 25:41 and has the same meaning as the "lake of fire". Jesus also used the expression "Gehenna" [Greek form of the Hebrew Geh Hin·nom´, "Valley of Hinnom"], at Matthew 5:22, 29,30; 18:9 and 23:15 meaning the same as the "lake of fire". Is the "lake of fire" literal ? No. Just as the "wild beast" and the "false prophet" are symbolic, so is the "lake of fire".

Then what is the meaning of the "lake of fire" ? Just as fire consumes and destroys that which it burns, so the "lake of fire" means total destruction, not eternal torment, for the "wild beast" nor the "false prophet" cannot be physically tormented, but can be destroyed. These political organizations, the "wild beast" being Satan's entire political system of things on the earth and the "false prophet" being the Anglo-America dual world power of Britain and America, and their supporters,(Rev 19:21) are destroyed following the total annihilation of "Babylon the Great", the world empire of false religion at the very hands of the "wild beast" or political elements of the world,(Rev 18:8) having done so because "God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought."(Rev 17:16,17)

Thus, all false religion, Babylon the Great, whom is spoken of as being "completely burned with fire",(Rev 18:8) and all the political elements or human governments of the earth, that Satan has created,(Rev 13:1) will be thrown into the "lake of fire" or eternal destruction, having received condemnatory judgment from God, never to exist again.(Dan 2:44)  What else is thrown into the "lake of fire" ? At Revelation 20:14, the King James Bible says that "death and hell" were. Death nor "hell" can be tormented, but can be destroyed. Too, "hell", before it's total demise, gives up "those dead in it".(Rev 20:13)

The Bible "hell" is not a place of torment as many teach or believe, but is the common grave of mankind, for the Greek word used there is hades. Those judged worthy of a resurrection from the dead by Jesus Christ, as held captive by hades, to life everlasting on the earth are given an opportunity to learn of the God of the Bible, Jehovah, and become faithful adherents of his laws, submitting to the "kingdom". The apostle Paul told Governor Felix, at Acts 24:15, that "there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous". Any who have shown themselves unwilling to fully follow "the things written in the scrolls"(Rev 20:12) during the thousand year reign of Christ, are then thrown into "the lake of fire", or the "second death".(Rev 20:14)

Hence, "whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire".(Rev 20:15) In addition, Adamic death, the death that mankind received as a result of being Adam's offspring,(Rom 5:12) will also be thrown into "the lake of fire", totally wiped out. Thus, following Adamic "death" having been cast into "the lake of fire", no one will die because of our inheritance from Adam - sin, resulting in imperfection and growing old.

A person's "name" can be removed from the "book of life".  Jesus, in providing commendation to the congregation of Sardis, said: "He that conquers will thus be arrayed in white outer garments; and I will by no means blot out his name from the book of life."(Rev 3:5) A person's "name" can be 'blotted out' if these fail in their loyalty to God. Hence, only those who do not "defile their outer garments", maintaining their Christian identity, remaining "undefiled before God...unspotted from the world" as part of the "pure religion", have their names written in the "book of life".(James 1:27)

Those that become an adulterer with the "world" and it's political elements, will never have their names in the "book of life", for Revelation 13:8 says that "all those who dwell on the earth (who) worship (the "wild beast", Satan's political system); the name of not one of them stands written in the scroll of life....from the founding of the world." James furthermore wrote: "Adulteresses, do you not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God ? Whoever wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself and enemy of God".(James 4:4)

[Moshood]

I would like to lay out an outline of how i view the "lake of fire".

First, we know that God is referred to as a "consuming fire".

We also know that God is Light and in him there is no darkness.

We know also that fire, even at the time of Cain and Abel was used to sacrifice animals as an atonement. In fact, it is suggested that fire would come down and consume the sacrifice if the sacrifice was acceptable to God. If it was not acceptable no fire would come from heaven and consume it.This may be how Cain knew that his sacrifice was not acceptable. This is quite possibly why Job knew he was in good standing with God, he had sacrificed for himself and for his sons and daughters (just in case).

The tabernacle, the outer court was lightened by the natural sun, thus the sacrifice and atonement's were for the natural man. The innercourt was lightened by the candlestick (the Holy Spirit in-part) Church realm? The most Holy place was lightened by the Glory of the very presence of God. Anyone entering this place defiled would drop dead. Now we know what the glory of God consumes....evil.

The face of Moses shown like an angel, so bright they had to veil his face. At his death he still looked like a young man (one cannot even age in this glory)

Christ, on the mount of transformation, when in the presence of the two witnesses became clothed in the glory of God's brightness.

And Steven, at his stoning, his face shown like an angel as he declared "lay not this sin to their charge". This is perhaps the best example of the Lake of fire, for at that time there was wailing and gnashing of teeth also:
Acts 7:54When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

Comparing that with:Matthew 13:42
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Elijah called for fire from heaven.

Jesus said:Luke 12:49
I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Now to the point....Jesus is like the tree...his body of many members is the forest. Jesus was but a flame....but the many membered body of Christ is like a lake of fire.

Steven stood before the Elders, being "FILLED" (not in-part) but "FILLED" with the Holy Spirit. Using the Word of God he cut them to the heart and exposed their inner thoughts and intents to the light of God.

Can you imagine what a "MANY membered body" of Steven's would be like?

Now then, keeping in mind that being in the very presence of God, as Moses, the physical body could not even age, let's look at 1 Cor.15) 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

This verse shows me that a generation coming won't see physical death, but will change/transform while they are still using their natural bodies.

:53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

:54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Is this not the manifestation of the sons of God, the many membered body? Is this not even the "rapture itself"? And what would a body of lights look like all moving in one accord? Like a lake of light(s)? A large body of fire?

And just as trees exchange bad air for good air, how would this body effect this world?

Isaiah 31:9
And he shall pass over to his strong hold for fear, and his princes shall be afraid of the ensign, saith the LORD, whose fire is in Zion, and his furnace in Jerusalem.

This is what i'm seeing as the lake of fire.

ONE FLAME OF FIRE = DROPLET OF FIRE

HUNDREDS = PUDDLE OF FIRE

THOUSANDS = POND OF FIRE

MILLIONS = LAKE OF FIRE

[martincisneros]

Basically, any view is compatible whose bottomline is the bringing of people to Christ rather than randomly excluding people as though the salvation of people weren't really central to God's purposes.  God loves people.  He doesn't love/hate people.  With this in mind, the Postmillenialism that I've embraced over the last year and a half is compatible because Postmillenialism doesn't insert a gap between Daniel chapter 7, verse 13 and Daniel chapter 7, verse 14 in the way that Premillenialism does.  The Kingdoms of this world having already become our Lord's and His Christ's as of when the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven to the Ancient of Days, then we're proceeding from that position of strength towards the discipling of all nations and the Christianizing of the globe through the preaching, teaching, and demonstration of the Gospel.  Whether every individual comes to Christ that's on the planet prior to the resurrection, as is envisioned by an Absolute Postmillenialism as taught by H.A.W. Meyer and B.B. Warfield, or whether you're talking about most people on the planet coming to Christ before the resurrection as would be taught by Kenneth Gentry and various others over the last 25+ years -- under either paradigm, then all you're left with is either a Restorationist Universalism or an Ultra Universalism to account for everybody else that's ever lived/died in what's alleged to be a state of unbelief.  In other words, although 9 tenths of the writings that you can currently find on Postmillenialism are Calvinists with a belief in ET, the ET paradigm isn't an essential to the Postmillenialist scheme of eschatology.  In fact, Postmillenialism reconciles better with UR than Premillenialism in my view, because of the danger of dispensationalists dispensationalizing themselves right out of a belief in UR, as Hal Lindsey, Grant Jeffrey, and various other dispensationalists have, who can easily envision a complete salvation of the nation of Israel but of no one else.

[Dallas]

I believe that because all things are finished and completed because Jesus was indeed sucsessful, no end times to come. Because all things are complete, all judgement has been decided, and all the courts closed forever since 70 AD that all people were included into the things of Christ.

Wether someone accepts or openly denies God or Jesus they were included in the death and ressurection of Christ. Does this mean everyone has heard and believed, absolutley not...but they will!

[Dallas]

David Chilton;

"As I mentioned above, much of the Bible is written in symbols. A helpful way to understand this, perhaps, would be to speak of these symbols as a set of patterns and associations. By this I mean that Biblical symbolism is not a code. It is, instead, a way of seeing, a perspective. For example, when Jesus speaks of "living water" (John 4:10), we rightly recognize that He is using water as a symbol. We understand that when He spoke to the woman at the well, He was not merely offering her "water." He was offering her eternal life. But He called it "water." We should immediately ask: Why did He do that? He could have simply said "eternal life." Why did He speak in metaphor? Why did He want her to think of water?

Now this is where we can make a big mistake, and this is the primary error of some interpreters who try to take a "symbolic" approach. It is to think that Biblical symbolism is primarily a puzzle for us to solve. We can suddenly decide: "Aha! Water is a special code-word which means eternal life. That means that whenever the Bible talks about water symbolically, it is really talking about eternal life; whenever someone takes a drink, he is really becoming a Christian." It just doesn't work that way (as you will see if you try to apply it throughout the Bible). Besides, what sense would it make for the Bible simply to put everything in code? The Bible is not a book for spies and secret societies; it is God's revelation of Himself to His covenant people. The puzzle-solving, mystical interpretation tends to be speculative; it does not pay sufficient attention to the way the Bible itself speaks.

When Jesus offered "water" to the woman, He wanted her to think of the multiple imagery connected with water in the Bible. In a general sense, of course, we know that water is associated with the Spiritual refreshment and sustenance of life which comes through salvation. But the Biblical associations with water are much more complex than that. This is because understanding Biblical symbolism does not mean cracking a code. It is much more like reading good poetry.

The symbolism of the Bible is not structured in a flat, this-means-that style. Instead, it is meant to be read visually. We are to see the images rise before us in succession, layer upon layer, allowing them to evoke a response in our minds and hearts. The prophets did not write in order to create stimulating intellectual exercises. They wrote to teach. They wrote in visual, dramatic symbols; and if we would fully understand their message we must appreciate their vocabulary. We must read the Bible visually. The visual symbols themselves, and what the Bible says about them, are important aspects of what God wants us to learn; otherwise, He wouldn't have spoken that way.

So, when the Bible tells us a story about water, it is not "really" telling us about something else; it is telling us about water. But at the same time we are expected to see the water, and to think of the Biblical associations with regard to water. The system of interpretation offered here is neither "literalistic" nor "symbolic"; it takes the "water" seriously and literally, but it also takes seriously what God's Word associates with water throughout the history of Biblical revelation.

What are some of the Biblical associations which might have occurred to the woman at the well, and to the disciples? Here are a few of them:



The watery, fluid mass that was the original nature of the earth at the creation, and out of which God formed all life (Gen. 1);


The great river of Eden that watered the whole earth (Gen. 2);


The salvation of Noah and his family by the waters of the Flood, out of which the earth was re-created (Gen. 6-9);


God's gracious revelations to Hagar by a fountain (Gen. 16) and a well (Gen. 21);


The well called Rehoboth, where God gave Isaac dominion (Gen. 26);


The river out of which the infant Moses, the future Deliverer of Israel, was taken and made a prince (Ex.2);


The redemptive crossing of the Red Sea, where God again saved His people by water (Ex. 14);


The water that flowed from the stricken Rock at Sinai, giving life to the people (Ex. 17);


The many ritual sprinklings in the Old Testament, signifying the removal of filth, pollution, sickness and death, and the bestowal of the Spirit upon the priests (e.g., Lev. 14; Num. 8);


The crossing of the Jordan River (Josh. 3);


The sound of rushing waters made by the pillar of cloud (Ezek. 1);


The River of Life flowing from the Temple and healing the Dead Sea (Ezek. 47).


Thus, when the Bible speaks of water, we are supposed to have in our minds a vast host of associative concepts, a complex of Biblical images that affects our thinking about water. To put it differently, water is supposed to be something like a "buzzword," a term that calls up many associations and connotations. When we read the word water we should be reminded of God's saving acts and revelations by water throughout Scripture. The Bible uses many of these "buzz-words," and increases the number of them as it goes on; until, by the time we get to Revelation (the capstone of Biblical prophecy), they all come rushing toward us at once, in a blizzard of associative references, some of which are obvious, some obscure. To the one who really knows his Bible and has noted the literary patterns and images, much of the book will look familiar; to the rest of us, it's confusing. In Revelation, we are confronted with all the Biblical connotations of numerous images: not only water, but light, fire, clouds, angels, stars, lamps, food, stones, swords, thrones, rainbows, robes, thunder, voices, animals, wings, scavengers, eyes, keys, trumpets, plagues, mountains, winds, seas, altars, blood, locusts, trees, heads, horns, and crowns.

[laren]

David Chilton;

"As I mentioned above, much of the Bible is written in symbols. A helpful way to understand this, perhaps, would be to speak of these symbols as a set of patterns and associations. By this I mean that Biblical symbolism is not a code. It is, instead, a way of seeing, a perspective. For example, when Jesus speaks of "living water" (John 4:10), we rightly recognize that He is using water as a symbol. We understand that when He spoke to the woman at the well, He was not merely offering her "water." He was offering her eternal life. But He called it "water." We should immediately ask: Why did He do that? He could have simply said "eternal life." Why did He speak in metaphor? Why did He want her to think of water?

Now this is where we can make a big mistake, and this is the primary error of some interpreters who try to take a "symbolic" approach. It is to think that Biblical symbolism is primarily a puzzle for us to solve. We can suddenly decide: "Aha! Water is a special code-word which means eternal life. That means that whenever the Bible talks about water symbolically, it is really talking about eternal life; whenever someone takes a drink, he is really becoming a Christian." It just doesn't work that way (as you will see if you try to apply it throughout the Bible). Besides, what sense would it make for the Bible simply to put everything in code? The Bible is not a book for spies and secret societies; it is God's revelation of Himself to His covenant people. The puzzle-solving, mystical interpretation tends to be speculative; it does not pay sufficient attention to the way the Bible itself speaks.

When Jesus offered "water" to the woman, He wanted her to think of the multiple imagery connected with water in the Bible. In a general sense, of course, we know that water is associated with the Spiritual refreshment and sustenance of life which comes through salvation. But the Biblical associations with water are much more complex than that. This is because understanding Biblical symbolism does not mean cracking a code. It is much more like reading good poetry.

The symbolism of the Bible is not structured in a flat, this-means-that style. Instead, it is meant to be read visually. We are to see the images rise before us in succession, layer upon layer, allowing them to evoke a response in our minds and hearts. The prophets did not write in order to create stimulating intellectual exercises. They wrote to teach. They wrote in visual, dramatic symbols; and if we would fully understand their message we must appreciate their vocabulary. We must read the Bible visually. The visual symbols themselves, and what the Bible says about them, are important aspects of what God wants us to learn; otherwise, He wouldn't have spoken that way.

So, when the Bible tells us a story about water, it is not "really" telling us about something else; it is telling us about water. But at the same time we are expected to see the water, and to think of the Biblical associations with regard to water. The system of interpretation offered here is neither "literalistic" nor "symbolic"; it takes the "water" seriously and literally, but it also takes seriously what God's Word associates with water throughout the history of Biblical revelation.

What are some of the Biblical associations which might have occurred to the woman at the well, and to the disciples? Here are a few of them:



The watery, fluid mass that was the original nature of the earth at the creation, and out of which God formed all life (Gen. 1);


The great river of Eden that watered the whole earth (Gen. 2);


The salvation of Noah and his family by the waters of the Flood, out of which the earth was re-created (Gen. 6-9);


God's gracious revelations to Hagar by a fountain (Gen. 16) and a well (Gen. 21);


The well called Rehoboth, where God gave Isaac dominion (Gen. 26);


The river out of which the infant Moses, the future Deliverer of Israel, was taken and made a prince (Ex.2);


The redemptive crossing of the Red Sea, where God again saved His people by water (Ex. 14);


The water that flowed from the stricken Rock at Sinai, giving life to the people (Ex. 17);


The many ritual sprinklings in the Old Testament, signifying the removal of filth, pollution, sickness and death, and the bestowal of the Spirit upon the priests (e.g., Lev. 14; Num. 8);


The crossing of the Jordan River (Josh. 3);


The sound of rushing waters made by the pillar of cloud (Ezek. 1);


The River of Life flowing from the Temple and healing the Dead Sea (Ezek. 47).


Thus, when the Bible speaks of water, we are supposed to have in our minds a vast host of associative concepts, a complex of Biblical images that affects our thinking about water. To put it differently, water is supposed to be something like a "buzzword," a term that calls up many associations and connotations. When we read the word water we should be reminded of God's saving acts and revelations by water throughout Scripture. The Bible uses many of these "buzz-words," and increases the number of them as it goes on; until, by the time we get to Revelation (the capstone of Biblical prophecy), they all come rushing toward us at once, in a blizzard of associative references, some of which are obvious, some obscure. To the one who really knows his Bible and has noted the literary patterns and images, much of the book will look familiar; to the rest of us, it's confusing. In Revelation, we are confronted with all the Biblical connotations of numerous images: not only water, but light, fire, clouds, angels, stars, lamps, food, stones, swords, thrones, rainbows, robes, thunder, voices, animals, wings, scavengers, eyes, keys, trumpets, plagues, mountains, winds, seas, altars, blood, locusts, trees, heads, horns, and crowns.

ah, i get all this stuff.  just didn't understand how u came up with "nations" as referring to non Israel. 


Does Chilton talk specifically about this??

[Dallas]

There are numerous allusions to it, and direct refrences througout scripture. It begins all the way back in Genesis chapter 1.

Genesis 1:9 "Then God said, "Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so.

   10God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good.

   11Then God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them"; and it was so.

   12The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.

   13There was evening and there was morning, a third day."


The earth was called out from the midst of the waters...Israel was called out from the midst of the nations...the earth brought forth fruit...Israel brought  forth Jesus the firstfruit.

Ya I know at first glance that seems like a stretch but as with most concepts it develops quite deeply.

But so did mountains talking about salvation.

but here;

Psalm 69: 1Save me, O God,
         For the (A)waters have threatened my life.
      2I have sunk in deep (B)mire, and there is no foothold;
         I have come into deep waters, and a (C)flood overflows me.
      3I am (D)weary with my crying; my throat is parched;
         My (E)eyes fail while I wait for my God.
      4Those (F)who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head;
         Those who would destroy me (G)are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies;
      14Deliver me from the (X)mire and do not let me sink;
         May I be (Y)delivered from my foes and from the (Z)deep waters.
      15May the (AA)flood of water not overflow me
         Nor the deep swallow me up,
         Nor the (AB)pit shut its mouth on me.


Psalm 74:12Yet God is (Y)my king from of old,
         Who works deeds of deliverance in the midst of the earth.
      13[a]You (Z)divided the sea by Your strength;
         You (AA)broke the heads of the (AB)sea monsters in the waters.
      14You crushed the heads of (AC)Leviathan;

Deliverance of the earth- Israel
The sea, genesis 1 in which were seperated and earth was formed
Gen 1 God filled the sea with monsters after earth was called out
Revlation and Daniel the beasts of many waters, the dragon that comes up from he sea

Psalm 77:16The (AD)waters saw You, O God;
         The waters saw You, they were in anguish;
         The deeps also trembled.
      17The (AE)clouds poured out water;
         The skies (AF)gave forth a sound;
         Your (AG)arrows flashed here and there.
      18The (AH)sound of Your thunder was in the whirlwind;
         The (AI)lightnings lit up the world;
         The (AJ)earth trembled and shook.
      19Your (AK)way was in the sea
         And Your paths in the mighty waters,
         And Your footprints may not be known.
      20You (AL)led Your people like a flock
         By the hand of (AM)Moses and Aaron

Psalm 104:13 "He waters the mountains from His upper chambers;
         (U)The earth is satisfied with the fruit of His works.


Not to mention all the mentioning of waters and a nation...The waters at Jordan etc do a concordance search.

Isaiah 8:5Again the LORD spoke to me further, saying,
      6"Inasmuch as these people have (G)rejected the gently flowing waters of Shiloah
         And rejoice in (H)Rezin and the son of Remaliah;
      7"Now therefore, behold, the Lord is about to bring on them the (I)strong and abundant waters of the (J)Euphrates,
         Even the (K)king of Assyria and all his glory;
         And it will (L)rise up over all its channels and go over all its banks.
      8"Then (M)it will sweep on into Judah, it will overflow and pass through,
         It will (N)reach even to the neck;
         And the spread of its wings will fill the breadth of your land, O (O)Immanuel.

Isaiah 17: 12Alas, the uproar of many peoples
         (X)Who roar like the roaring of the seas,
         And the rumbling of nations
         Who rush on like the (Y)rumbling of mighty waters!
      13The (Z)nations rumble on like the rumbling of many waters,
         But He will (AA)rebuke them and they will flee far away,
         And be chased (AB)like chaff in the mountains before the wind,
         Or like whirling dust before a gale.


Isaiah 19:1The (A)oracle concerning (B)Egypt
         Behold, the LORD is (C)riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt;
         The (D)idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence,
         And the (E)heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.
      2"So I will incite Egyptians against Egyptians;
         And they will (F)each fight against his brother and each against his neighbor,
         City against city and kingdom against kingdom.
      3"Then the spirit of the Egyptians will be demoralized within them;
         And I will confound their strategy,
         So that (G)they will resort to idols and ghosts of the dead
         And to mediums and spiritists.
      4"Moreover, I will deliver the Egyptians into the hand of a (H)cruel master,
         And a mighty king will rule over them," declares the Lord GOD of hosts.
      5(I)The waters from the sea will dry up,
         And the river will be parched and dry.


Revelation 17:15 "And he said to me, "The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues."

Exodus 34:10 "Then God said, "Behold, I am going to make a covenant Before all your people I will perform miracles which have not been produced in all the earth nor among any of the nations; and all the people among whom you live will see the working of the LORD, for it is a fearful thing that I am going to perform with you." -(there is a very clear distinction between the earth and nations here)

Isaiah 23:3 "And were on many waters. The grain of the Nile, the harvest of the River was her revenue;And she was the market of nations."

That's enough for now eh?

[laren]

yes, very helpful;  thank you


laren

[Dallas]

http://members.aol.com/thalonpentad/fullpreteriststudies.html

[firstborn888]

Very much so. Been studying this for a while now. Will definitely rattle your cage.
- Byron

[Dallas]

Just like when I didn't believe in the inclusive love of God and heard about it I was quite taken back. Then I became informed and couldn't deny the plain truth. Now in preterism theleogy there is alot of undeniable truths also.