the meaning of the second death and lake of fire

[MichelleSR]

Hi!  I came across these articles from another website created by Christian Universalists.  Some of their articles are a bit confusing to me, and their interpretation of Christian living is very strict compared to others, but they have an interpretation of the second death that I had not heard of before and was wondering if some of you had come across it.  You can read it here:

http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings/restitution/seconddeath.htm

Basically they are saying that all who accept Christ while alive on earth and obey His commands are sanctified during life and will basically go straight to heaven and not have to suffer through the second death.

However, the second death occurs when all the sinners and nonbelievers are thrown into the Lake of Fire, which destroys all hell and death.  Afterwards is when there will be no more suffering, no more death, every knee will bow, everyone will rejoice in our Savior, etc.  It makes sense to me, although the concept is so new to me that part of me is hesitant, or even afraid to believe it fully yet.  It just sounds too good to be true! 

I was thinking about how the traditional interpretation of all the sinners being thrown into the Lake of Fire, followed by rejoicing, doesn't make much sense.  Do God's Holy people really want to rejoice at a massive massacre that leaves most of the people of the world in endless torment?  Would we really be praising our Savior and King? 

It seems to me that the Lake of Fire and the Second Death could be the way of purging the last of the evil out of the souls how avoided the light.  You know how John 3:20 says "Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed."  I think those people may be the ones who retreat into "hell" and stay away from heaven after dead, out of their own choice.  If you ever heard of the NDE of Dr. George Ritche or Howard Storm, they saw people in this state, people who had died and had rejected the love of Jesus.  So the Lake of Fire may be the final way the Lord reconciles them all to Him.

Then I was wondering, if this is true, how horrible would the second death be?  It's certainly something I'd rather avoid....However I found some scripture that made me feel encouraged.  In general, God himself is depicted as a consuming or refining fire in many instances in the Bible.  One of the verses I found, I can't find now and wish I had written it down.  It said something about how the Lord sent down His fire on people but even after burning them in the fire, they still had hardened hearts and wouldn't turn to Him.  Obviously He couldn't have meant a literal fire because anyone in their right mind would beg for the torture to stop and turn to Him right away, so it must have been symbolic of how He chastened them to lead them to Him but they still were not ready to accept Him.

Other verses I found that show that the Lord uses punishment or fire to draw people to Him are:

"You will know that I am the Lord, when I inflict punishment on you and within you am proved to be holy.  I will send a plague upon you and make blood flow in your streets.  The slain will fall within you, with the sword against you on every side.  Then you will know that I am the Lord.  No longer will the people of Israel have malicious neighbors who are painful briers and sharp thorns.  Then they will know that I am the Sovereign Lord." Ezekiel 28:22 - 24

"See, the storm of the Lord will burst out in wrath, a whirlwind swirling down on the heads of the wicked.  The anger of the Lord will not turn back until he fully accomplishes the purposes of his hearts.  In days to come you will understand it clearly."  Jeremiah 24:19 - 20

"You were like a burning stick snatched from the fire, yet you have not returned to me," declares the Lord.  Therefore this is what I will do to you, Israel, and because I will do this to you, Israel, prepare to meet your God" Amos 4:11

And then I saw "For no one is cast off by the Lord forever.  Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love."  Lamentations 3:31 - 32.


My thinking is that the Lake of fire will be different for each individual, depending on how they lived their lives, and will perfectly draw all people back to God.  I'd love to hear some of your interpretations of the Second Death and Lake of Fire and see if it matches this article's viewpoint. 

[eaglesway]

I believe the fire of God is His love and light.

If one holds to darkness, then the light is like a fire to the secrets of their hearts. It will bring up the impurities, because in His presence no flesh can stand.

Notice that in Rev in two places Jesus is depicted as having fire in His eyes. His face is shining like the sun shining in its strength.  The "eye is the light of the soul" and "if your eye is single your whole body will be full of light"

In Hebrews 4 it is written...

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Everything is uncovered and laid bare when we stand before those eyes of fire, and it is good. His word reveals the secrets of our hearts--"I am He that tries the reins and the hearts". For believers, this leads to confession cleansing and victory.

"If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

The prophet who has a dream may relate his dream, but let him who has My word speak My word in truth. What does straw have in common with grain?" declares the LORD. 29"Is not My word like fire?" declares the LORD, "and like a hammer which shatters a rock? 30"Therefore behold, I am against the prophets," declares the LORD, "who steal My words from each other....

Moses spoke to the rock and water came forth, and so it is with the fire of God- it's purpose is always to purify and create a pathway for the living water to flow.

We have been having an extended debate here on Tentmaker of late about whether the lake of fire symbolizes an experience that awaits the wicked and the rebellious in the age to come. I believe it does, as Jesus, Peter and Paul all spoke of it in the future tense as well as speaking of the fire of God in the presnt tense regarding trials and tribulations and the recompense in this life of those who do evil.

But to me, Mt 25:46, Rev 14:10, 2 Thess 1:8, Rev 20:15 and Romans 1:4-16 all clearly show that there remains a post mortem experience in the fire of His presence and the the penetrating light of His gaze for some.

The main thing tho, is that we understand that there is no such thing in the scriptures as a punishment of torment that lasts forever and ever. The lake of fire is the second death. In 1 Cor 15 Paul says,

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be ALL IN ALL.

If the second death lasted forever the death could not be abolished. Those in it could not be subjected. God could never become ALL IN ALL.

But as Jesus died for all and said, "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me"- we know that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess- whether in heaven, on earth, or under the earth- that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.(Phi 2)

We know that God's purpose from the very beginning was to become all in all. To teach His creation the glory of love through CHRIST CRUCIFIED.

Rom 11:32

For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?

Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN?

For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

Eph 1:9-11

He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

Whatever one believes about the lake of fire, it is NOT the eternal hell of torment so many believe in. IMO, That is just a myth of the Romans that got inserted into the gospel by men intent on dominated their subjects in the theocracy of Rome.

[rosered]

 


I do   believe Gods WORD and have always struggled to write   down what is in my heart ,,

  I never could read  a lot of men's ''revelations ''  and   they can be excellent   and very helpful .

But  God always made it hard for me to   study them  much ...

He let me study  in the word   meanings and    Hebrew and Greek meanings and always , always  asked Jesus  , just like a    little    child does ,    what is hell ?   what is heaven Lord ?  what is the second death ?    what is Love ?   What do these things mean   Lord ?   soooo many many questions  , just like a 3 year old asking    and  trusting    your elders with respect and honor   and  child like faith    He would answer   in the right time and right  way ..


when riding one lawn mower or doing dishes or just reading His word  in quiet times .

And have ever  been so comforted with   what   I believe is the Lord helping me to Know Him  in a personal way    that does give  us , such a peace  and  confidence to speak  .

  I do believe the scriptures interpret   themselves with other scriptures and give us answers by the Holy Spirit quickening them  for us and give a moving life giving   peace and joy  in that moment  and are  so precious  to us   , Jesus   Christ   testimony is the Spirit of prophecy  and everything is being fulfilled    from the old law and prophets  when God spoke though them   , Jesus  is a spiritual Life giving Word  .  This union of  both witnesses    God the Fathers  Spirit and the Sons Spirit 
 
It took a long time  and do believe it is the Lord   GOD ALMIGHTY  are ONE and all with Him   [ Holy Spirit ]  that keeps the hunger and thirst for His     Word and Spirit alive and working in us   as we do get to grow in truth and grace   by His own anointing[Light is Christ]  of His Word by His own Spirit of truth  .

And all we can do is share it  , put it out   there    , like food and water  for the ''poor in spirit ''    for their is the Kingdom of Heaven  promise  of God for they will be filled   Matt 5 .

This is my belief of now  , and my own thoughts  about the second death  after   the Lord giving some understanding on the first death    process  some  get to experience   in this life    and it is prophecy in my own opinion , being in Adam all die

  , it is the first  attempt we all take in eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and begin to judge  by our own understanding and carnal minds  ,    that Day no matter how long it takes is the day we die in   Adam   / mankind    and are asleep    spiritually speaking , because    the SPIRIT  IS LIFE

  and this Life   in Christ  is missed out on when you are sin sick and asleep , it is just a dark and empty hole  [grave]  that nothing in the world can fill  and ever needy and wanting  and never satisfied .  truly     Sin  in   missing the mark of the higher calling to   ''come up here  and be with Him ''   as you are  experiencing , the body of death  and    the depths of  satan , adversity  and   unsettled thoughts and confusion and fear and torment   of not knowing God or not knowing anything   , or when your life will end in this life of never knowing anything  more about God  or His ways

.  THIS being the reason we are to take up our Cross and Follow Jesus , this narrow path given  and  proven  by     The cross of the Lord Jesus Christ  to me,  and represents a very powerful truth 

It is an open show    of  dying to the world and all that is in it , that pomp and  worldly wisdom  and   satan's power being  the temptation and its lusts ,  to fall from grace  into a world of hurt  and many many  sorrows  knowing corruption   at its worst .

To  me  , in my own understanding at this time ,      I do see the   LORD JESUS CHRIST as the Victory that overcome the world   , and death  , being the carnal mind that death dwells in  and thrives on
HIS POWER GIVEN BY GOD THE FATHER HIMSELF  [ Full of the HOLY SPIRIT  without measure]   took death captive  and holds it   ,  from that cross and gives this freedom from  the  fear of death   and allots us  measures of  The  HOLY SPIRIT     fruits of truth and grace   to  keep us in HIM  , Till we have enough  of His own  Holy  Spirit and WORD   to over come the evil one of this   wicked  world ...   He keeps His promises   , we are to keep ours by  trying and not give up.  He is faithful as promised and  the author and finisher of our faith in Him , He will not deny Himself   as the temptations  begin to cease and small victories    in Christ rise  in your life by answered prayers   that help us believe and trust in  Him more and more

  To Whom He desires  to when  they ask Him  with a true heart of repentance  and hating the evil   that is  in the world  and all its cruelty  by nature  asking Jesus to   EXPOSE IT  BY THE LIGHT  and  change you and be like HIM and keep asking  and not let up  on asking Him  as honest as you can be  before Him .

  The heart is desperately wicked     above all else and who can know it ?    How many times      have you thought , I got this and FAIL THE TEST!?   

many times over again and  again , the prophecy  of   indeed the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak  , the Spirit is willing to help us , but in our weak  condition we do  not    seek the Spirit s help   but fail ,learning not to trust in ourselves   at all or anyone .....BUT LET GOD JUDGE  , He is an excellent judge  and knows all hearts     and what they are capable of   ,  when Pride is   hidden in there , it has to be  BURNED OUT  , the Holy Spirit and  fire   is destroying all the   liars and thieves and  evil of Babylons spirit ,   She is the  great whore of the earth  and where the false prophets are found in   and speak of their own  ways  , that are not of God but trying to be GOD  and it is  pride  , spiritual warfare        those sitting in the high places they ought not be in    seeing themselves as the Christ  anointed of God  or being God Himself sitting on the seat of your heart  ruling in the most  awful    of ways



Here is where I see the second death   , Blessed is He who is in the first resurrection  [IN CHRIST ]   HE IS THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE ]  the second death  will not harm you     ,     To me   and this is my own faith    Revelations is the revealing of JESUS CHRIST  IN THE LORDS DAY and destroying Babylon   in the world and  earth / mankind   Spoken as a promise of Gods Spirit    Himself , not giving His own Glory to another     spoken   from the law & prophets of old  and that is      anything   and everything        found in you    will be   removed by His Day and full light and presence

  In the presence of the Lamb   , His wrath is   righteous because HE DIED FOR YOU    and will not  tolerate   any  evil of any kind and that ''spirit of pride ''    has to go  , all will be humbled  by  HIM  , no matter what   Babylon is falling it is the doctrine of devils  ,   spirits in a bad way themselves

  When you are in Christ finally   and   fully and completely  , nothing can harm you   ,  none of those lies  can harm you [Rev 9] , no sting of death   can  torment you ,  the fear has been  filled with the LOVE OF GOD  working in you ,       no voices will you hear or listen to , Because the Voice of many  crystal clear waters from above  is all   you ever needed and wanted   and  will obey    ...  you will not obey them  voices that are below ever again   .


 

[marie glen]

:hiya: hello, MichelleSR, and welcome to tentmaker forum!

It does, in some ways, seem too good to be true, doesn't it!? But only because of our own thinking or having been taught.. Because if our heavenly Father is perfect.. which surely He is! Then the 'end' result of all this (life as we know it) can only be the best one possible! (Surely?!)

Anymore, I think of the "2nd death" (lake of fire) as, I agree, the not yet saved's dying to sin and self.. the lower, imperfect and flawed nature being purged from them. It makes sense to me, as they've already died once.. so a second dying cannot be annihilation, as I once thought, and thought very few would end up there (in lake of fire, second death) -

but according to God's Word:

that "He is gathering all things in heaven and earth into Jesus" 1 Colossians 1:20 and Ephesians 1:10;

that "all nations will come and worship before you" Rev 15:4;

"all the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all families of the nations will worship before Thee" Ps 22:27;

"Every knee shall bend" written three times, Ro 14:11, Phil 2:10, Is 45:23 (..all knees shall bend..)

And of course 1 Corinthians 15:28, "the Father will be all in all".. and many more.

Surely(?) the "all" can only be "all"!

I also find myself believing (an idea i have, that) Judgment 'Day' (represented by the five days between Fall Feasts of Day of Atonement and Tabernacles) will be an 'age' lasting roughly 500 years, and believe many of the resurrected unsaved will repent and follow Jesus before end of Judgment 'Day' and will avoid the lake of fire, having experienced it by then, much like we have as remorse, 'burning shame'.. etc. :dontknow: :smile:

[GodIsLove]

Michelle---YUP! You are seeing it!

:HeartThrob:

[rosered]

  Amen    .......  encourage one another as we see the DAY approaching    :dsunny:

  This whole thread    is   such a blessing !!
   I love that some are bowing the knee now and  confessing Christ Jesus   , take heart ......,all   will in the  end   ......

Give that Honor and praise and Glory to GOD   ..  Thanking the Lord for His  Holy Spirit
    and  everyone of you  and   this place ......

  God  love and bless you all........  :HeartThrob:

[MichelleSR]

I GET IT!!!

Okay, maybe you'll think I'm nuts but I seriously had a "Eureka!" moment yesterday.  I pondered this concept all day long and some of what I might say may really not align with what a lot of you believe.

Nonetheless I feel like it reconciles all the seeming contradictions between personal testimonies, near death experiences, and scripture.  I'm just going to go with it because it makes me feel personally at peace and able to see the Lord in a positive way and feel optimistic about the salvation of everyone.

Sooo...I kept thinking about reincarnation.  I know most people here don't believe in it, but I think it explains so many things about why people are so different and also why people are in so many different places on their path toward God.  Some downright hate the Lord!  And some are so devoted to Him.  And some say they are devoted to Him but their actions display otherwise.  Before I became a Christian, I didn't care.  I tried to see the good in everyone.  When I converted though and believed in the doctrine of eternal damnation, I suddenly saw the evil in everyone and panicked!

I used to believe in reincarnation   I believed, based on some near death testimonies, that we went back and forth between the physical world and the spirit world and that after each death, we had a judgment and experienced temporary heavenly or hellish experiences in the spirit world based on how we lived our lives. It also just made such logical sense and aligns with the "reap what you sow" truth as well.  But when I became a Christian I thought I'd have to stop believing in reincarnation because of Hebrews 9:27 (and now I think that verse is taken out of context to mean something it doesn't). 

I was very sad though about rejecting the concept of reincarnation.  I wanted to believe that we had more opportunities in the future to overcome trials and grow and become better versions of ourselves.Also, who can get everything right in just one lifetime? 

When I converted to Christianity,I thought that reincarnation must be a lie from the devil, and I actually thought that most of what I used to believe was a lie from the devil.  Now that I thought I only had one life to live, this made me feel very anxious about getting everything right as soon as possible because I won't have any more opportunities later. 

Anyway, yesterday I kept thinking, "What is the first death?" Most people think of it as the death of their bodies, but in my mind I kept hearing over and over again, "spiritual death."  Well, that means the fall.  "Death" is just a change of state.  So if you believe in reincarnation you would believe that we came from God, and since God has been here forever, we must have all somehow been here forever too.  There are numerous references in the Bible about how God knew us before we were born.  Also, how can you create something from nothing?  Anyway, in the beginning, we were all perfect because we were with God.  But then we "died" and fell into our sinful state.

So the second death is the death of the sinful nature.  Everyone is being purified by fire for this to happen.  That means that we are in the lake of fire right now!

Doesn't that make sense?  Do you notice how every cowardly person, every liar, every adulterer, and so on is thrown into the lake?  Well, isn't that just about EVERYONE?  I used to get so scared when I read that.  I thought, "who could possibly be on the other side?"  Well, it's all the saints, all the ones who were purified by the Lord and whose sinful nature had died.  Notice how Jesus told the Pharisees that the prostitutes would enter heaven before they did - well it makes sense if you think of them "emerging" from the lake before them or achieving salvation in Christ before them, in whatever physical lifetime they may be in. 

It all fits.  Even baptism represents this second death.  The water symbolizes washing away our sins and dying to our sins but the Bible says that He will baptize us with fire - it fits with the lake of fire perfectly.  It also goes along with God's character to forgive repeatedly.  Does it make sense that He would only give us one lifetime to overcome our sinful nature completely?  Or does it make more sense that He would give us many opportunities to grow and become more like Him? 

Anyway, I was contemplating whether or not to believe this could all be true.  It just sounds too good to be true, too loving, too forgiving, too kind.  But isn't that how God is?  Really, who do you possibly know who is holy and sanctified enough to not be thrown into the lake of fire after death (if you think about it the way it is traditionally taught).  I can't think of a single person.  It makes more sense to see it as the purifying, sanctifying fire that we are all experiencing this very moment.

I emailed a pastor that I had found that I admired and asked him if he believed universalism could be true.  He told me to just believe whatever gives me the most peace and hope.  And I thought, "Just choose to believe whatever I want?  Whatever makes me happy?  Shouldn't I have to research it first, examine it, discuss it, pray about it, meditate on it, etc. before I can truly believe it?"

And in my mind I heard "little child" and remembered how Jesus taught about how our faith and disposition should be.   And I thought, "that is exactly how Jesus wants me to believe."  No five-year-old would conduct an in depth research to determine if the God they worship loves them.

I am feeling better although I don't know anyone else who has this viewpoint.  Anyway, I am starting to feel a love for the Lord that I hadn't felt before.  I feel a bit afraid to even share this view here, although I'm glad that everyone here is open-minded and kind. 

[Patinak]

I do   believe Gods WORD and have always struggled to write   down what is in my heart ,,

  I never could read  a lot of men's "revelations "  and   they can be excellent   and very helpful .

But  God always made it hard for me to   study them  much ...

He let me study  in the word   meanings and    Hebrew and Greek meanings and always , always  asked Jesus  , just like a    little    child does ,    what is hell ?   what is heaven Lord ?  what is the second death ?    what is Love ?   What do these things mean   Lord ?   soooo many many questions  , just like a 3 year old asking    and  trusting    your elders with respect and honor   and  child like faith    He would answer   in the right time and right  way ..


when riding one lawn mower or doing dishes or just reading His word  in quiet times .

And have ever  been so comforted with   what   I believe is the Lord helping me to Know Him  in a personal way    that does give  us , such a peace  and  confidence to speak  .

  I do believe the scriptures interpret   themselves with other scriptures and give us answers by the Holy Spirit quickening them  for us and give a moving life giving   peace and joy  in that moment  and are  so precious  to us   , Jesus   Christ   testimony is the Spirit of prophecy  and everything is being fulfilled    from the old law and prophets  when God spoke though them   , Jesus  is a spiritual Life giving Word  .  This union of  both witnesses    God the Fathers  Spirit and the Sons Spirit 
 
It took a long time  and do believe it is the Lord   GOD ALMIGHTY  are ONE and all with Him   [ Holy Spirit ]  that keeps the hunger and thirst for His     Word and Spirit alive and working in us   as we do get to grow in truth and grace   by His own anointing[Light is Christ]  of His Word by His own Spirit of truth  .

And all we can do is share it  , put it out   there    , like food and water  for the "poor in spirit "    for their is the Kingdom of Heaven  promise  of God for they will be filled   Matt 5 .

This is my belief of now  , and my own thoughts  about the second death  after   the Lord giving some understanding on the first death    process  some  get to experience   in this life    and it is prophecy in my own opinion , being in Adam all die

  , it is the first  attempt we all take in eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and begin to judge  by our own understanding and carnal minds  ,    that Day no matter how long it takes is the day we die in   Adam   / mankind    and are asleep    spiritually speaking , because    the SPIRIT  IS LIFE

  and this Life   in Christ  is missed out on when you are sin sick and asleep , it is just a dark and empty hole  [grave]  that nothing in the world can fill  and ever needy and wanting  and never satisfied .  truly     Sin  in   missing the mark of the higher calling to   "come up here  and be with Him "   as you are  experiencing , the body of death  and    the depths of  satan , adversity  and   unsettled thoughts and confusion and fear and torment   of not knowing God or not knowing anything   , or when your life will end in this life of never knowing anything  more about God  or His ways

.  THIS being the reason we are to take up our Cross and Follow Jesus , this narrow path given  and  proven  by     The cross of the Lord Jesus Christ  to me,  and represents a very powerful truth 

It is an open show    of  dying to the world and all that is in it , that pomp and  worldly wisdom  and   satan's power being  the temptation and its lusts ,  to fall from grace  into a world of hurt  and many many  sorrows  knowing corruption   at its worst .

To  me  , in my own understanding at this time ,      I do see the   LORD JESUS CHRIST as the Victory that overcome the world   , and death  , being the carnal mind that death dwells in  and thrives on
HIS POWER GIVEN BY GOD THE FATHER HIMSELF  [ Full of the HOLY SPIRIT  without measure]   took death captive  and holds it   ,  from that cross and gives this freedom from  the  fear of death   and allots us  measures of  The  HOLY SPIRIT     fruits of truth and grace   to  keep us in HIM  , Till we have enough  of His own  Holy  Spirit and WORD   to over come the evil one of this   wicked  world ...   He keeps His promises   , we are to keep ours by  trying and not give up.  He is faithful as promised and  the author and finisher of our faith in Him , He will not deny Himself   as the temptations  begin to cease and small victories    in Christ rise  in your life by answered prayers   that help us believe and trust in  Him more and more

  To Whom He desires  to when  they ask Him  with a true heart of repentance  and hating the evil   that is  in the world  and all its cruelty  by nature  asking Jesus to   EXPOSE IT  BY THE LIGHT  and  change you and be like HIM and keep asking  and not let up  on asking Him  as honest as you can be  before Him .

  The heart is desperately wicked     above all else and who can know it ?    How many times      have you thought , I got this and FAIL THE TEST!?   

many times over again and  again , the prophecy  of   indeed the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak  , the Spirit is willing to help us , but in our weak  condition we do  not    seek the Spirit s help   but fail ,learning not to trust in ourselves   at all or anyone .....BUT LET GOD JUDGE  , He is an excellent judge  and knows all hearts     and what they are capable of   ,  when Pride is   hidden in there , it has to be  BURNED OUT  , the Holy Spirit and  fire   is destroying all the   liars and thieves and  evil of Babylons spirit ,   She is the  great whore of the earth  and where the false prophets are found in   and speak of their own  ways  , that are not of God but trying to be GOD  and it is  pride  , spiritual warfare        those sitting in the high places they ought not be in    seeing themselves as the Christ  anointed of God  or being God Himself sitting on the seat of your heart  ruling in the most  awful    of ways



Here is where I see the second death   , Blessed is He who is in the first resurrection  [IN CHRIST ]   HE IS THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE ]  the second death  will not harm you     ,     To me   and this is my own faith    Revelations is the revealing of JESUS CHRIST  IN THE LORDS DAY and destroying Babylon   in the world and  earth / mankind   Spoken as a promise of Gods Spirit    Himself , not giving His own Glory to another     spoken   from the law & prophets of old  and that is      anything   and everything        found in you    will be   removed by His Day and full light and presence

  In the presence of the Lamb   , His wrath is   righteous because HE DIED FOR YOU    and will not  tolerate   any  evil of any kind and that "spirit of pride "    has to go  , all will be humbled  by  HIM  , no matter what   Babylon is falling it is the doctrine of devils  ,   spirits in a bad way themselves

  When you are in Christ finally   and   fully and completely  , nothing can harm you   ,  none of those lies  can harm you [Rev 9] , no sting of death   can  torment you ,  the fear has been  filled with the LOVE OF GOD  working in you ,       no voices will you hear or listen to , Because the Voice of many  crystal clear waters from above  is all   you ever needed and wanted   and  will obey    ...  you will not obey them  voices that are below ever again   .

Rose, another great post!  This is one of those that I enjoyed reading over and over.  God has been so gracious to give you many insights. I'm glad you're here. :dsunny:

Pat

[rosered]

  God bless your heart    Pat  :HeartThrob:

  As you can tell by now , God deals with us all in many different ways ,  and though many different  peoples . but until I took Jesus Christ  as a personal savior , making it intimate and real  and close and

  Until the light bulb moment   ,  when the Lord   revealed    that  the Kingdom of God is  in you   Luke 17  I sure had been looking   everywhere else  :laughing7:
Young's Literal Translation
nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.'


This changed my whole perspective ,  and am so glad you also   can too!!!  This sure makes a joy rise up within us   huh?   

Seeing the  Word of God  as a mirror   brother  and     we really do look thought that glass / mirror  darkly    but when the Light shines   on that mirror

and look into  it we can begin to see a reflection of what kind of man   JESUS CHRIST IS  and can we see Him within us   and that LOVE   between us  all
  I thought of Paul's words    we look into the   mirror  as  Gods  children       1 Cor 13 Love

...11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man,

I set aside childish ways. 12Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of these is love.

It really is a dawning within us  and how far we come  , by first being an enemy  , to a stranger   and friend to servant and than son  , the family of God is a process   yet being  revealed   in us all ..

  The Bible ,WORD OF GOD  is a powerful witness  to be   believed and   followed and obeyed    to the best of our abilities,  the Holy Spirit is also  as powerful  as both become ALIVE within us   moving and shaking  and doing those LIVING  works that only  they can and promised to do  ,    we will also grow in truth and grace as the   the Father permits and gives the increase    as we become   complete  /perfected  by  both the Father and the Son   union  working   within His kingdom ,  namely us  whom  been given the  blessing and honor to serve   in the here and now .

   From the  Lamb of God  would a new heavens and earth come    to us   new creatures in Christ [this anointing ]though HIM ONLY   as an inheritance   of ''all things '' are ours as  we  follow Him  where ever He goes ''..

The Lamb Exalted
...12In a loud voice they said: "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive 1 power and 2riches and 3wisdom and4 strength and 5honor and6 glory and 7blessing!"
this is the seven fold   Spirit of God working in you mightily    as  His lamb and   your inheritance   from Him   [the eyes of the Lord are upon us ]    many scriptures  comes to mind   here ....

13And I heard every creature in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying:

"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be praise and honor and glory and power forever and ever."

14And the four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped....

  I praise    THE LORD  TODAY for you and  all those whom are  following the Lamb of God /Word of God / Our Lord Jesus Christ  ,  so many names and  so many  beautiful  truths    to be  counted and  praised  and  so very thankful for ..

Rich is  faith ,  where we  were poor  in spirit and  faith and  blessing   and hope and Love   mostly      but everything is poured out    from Him     so  everything will be yours   , He Loves us that much     ,     makes tears of  joy and such gratitude   flow like to rivers ,   don't it ?  when it moves as Life within us  ,,,,
We  love being in the Spirit and  crave it always  and cannot wait till  we are all    in His Holy Spirit     without end ...     what a joy unspeakable and full of glory  that will be    as  He keeps His word and promises ,  as   to all that is good and Holy and pure  and   complete    , HIS LOVE cannot fail .  romans 9  ....   
the inward man[spiritual] is being renewed day by day as more Light and knowlege   of Him is given and the old  outer  man[natural]  is perishing   in that same manner .

:HeartThrob:  God bless and keep you always 

[micah7:9]

"It took a long time  and do believe it is the Lord   GOD ALMIGHTY  are ONE and all with Him   [ Holy Spirit ]  that keeps the hunger and thirst for His     Word and Spirit alive and working in us   as we do get to grow in truth and grace   by His own anointing[Light is Christ]  of His Word by His own Spirit of truth  . "
"He keeps His promises   , we are to keep ours by  trying and not give up.  He is faithful as promised and  the author and finisher of our faith in Him , He will not deny Himself   as the temptations  begin to cease and small victories    in Christ rise  in your life by answered prayers   that help us believe and trust in  Him more and more " Rosered
Thank you  :happyclap:

[rosered]

"It took a long time  and do believe it is the Lord   GOD ALMIGHTY  are ONE and all with Him   [ Holy Spirit ]  that keeps the hunger and thirst for His     Word and Spirit alive and working in us   as we do get to grow in truth and grace   by His own anointing[Light is Christ]  of His Word by His own Spirit of truth  . "
"He keeps His promises   , we are to keep ours by  trying and not give up.  He is faithful as promised and  the author and finisher of our faith in Him , He will not deny Himself   as the temptations  begin to cease and small victories    in Christ rise  in your life by answered prayers   that help us believe and trust in  Him more and more " Rosered
Thank you  :happyclap:

I Thank God for you and all , He is helping us all ,    and Love and praise Him  !!   Love you bro ! :HeartThrob: love to you all

[Andrew]

Thank you!

Your posts on the the second death helped me finally release my fear of death. Your journey is like a mirror world of the journey I have went through. And we appear to arrived at the same spot. So I know it is the truth. I don't need any more proof.  Check out my matrix letters and see if they resonate with you.


http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/the-matrix-has-you/

Andrew   

[rosered]

Thank you!

Your posts on the the second death helped me finally release my fear of death. Your journey is like a mirror world of the journey I have went through. And we appear to arrived at the same spot. So I know it is the truth. I don't need any more proof.  Check out my matrix letters and see if they resonate with you.


http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/the-matrix-has-you/

Andrew   

    It seems MichelleSR    has not been here  for a couple of   months   now Andrew .,Bless your heart .

  But I am always glad when anyone can   Believe God  , That is awesome news       !!  :dsunny: :HeartThrob:   

[MHz]

In this earth all men are from the 1st birth and that is probably based on Heaven as defined in Ge:1 as being from the surface of the earth to the clouds above. You are created as an eternal being and if you eat you can live forever. If you sin you go to an escape proof prison to pay for your sin. The sentence always ends at Judgment Day and when you come out of there your sins are left behind. That is your 2nd birth and you are like Angels in that you are immortal and you can never die, unless you break on of the laws in Re:21 as those ones cover immortals.

Fallen angels have to be put into the Pit before they can be sent to the fiery lake. No men go there when he does as the gates to hell remain locked until Judgement Day which is the next event after Satan is sent to the fiery lake with  all the remaining fallen angels.

People were made less than perfect and the flaw was we did not know about good and evil yet in the new earth we do know about good and evil and we get to keep all our old rights. Angels is what we become only we have a sinless heart so we never sin.
Angels were not given the emotions that we use to become good parents and good shepherds to the ones we have been given dominion over so they were not given in marriage. That flaw is why Ge:6 turned out bad for everybody but a handful of people.
If our flaws are fixed when we exist in the new earth then their flaws will also be fixed and in the 3rd heaven they can be given in marriage and they will have one child each that is born perfected. God and the Holy Spirit and Christ have been down that road.
Once they have a child they also speak a universe into existence as it will become an inheritance for their child like this universe is an inheritance for Christ who happened to find a wife in the form of Mary of Bethany, aka the Beloved Disciple.

[Andrew]

Posted by MHz

"In this earth all men are from the 1st birth and that is probably based on Heaven as defined in Ge:1 as being from the surface of the earth to the clouds above. You are created as an eternal being and if you eat you can live forever. If you sin you go to an escape proof prison to pay for your sin. The sentence always ends at Judgment Day and when you come out of there your sins are left behind. That is your 2nd birth and you are like Angels in that you are immortal and you can never die, unless you break on of the laws in Re:21 as those ones cover immortals.

Fallen angels have to be put into the Pit before they can be sent to the fiery lake. No men go there when he does as the gates to hell remain locked until Judgement Day which is the next event after Satan is sent to the fiery lake with  all the remaining fallen angels.
People were made less than perfect and the flaw was we did not know about good and evil yet in the new earth we do know about good and evil and we get to keep all our old rights. Angels is what we become only we have a sinless heart so we never sin.
Angels were not given the emotions that we use to become good parents and good shepherds to the ones we have been given dominion over so they were not given in marriage. That flaw is why Ge:6 turned out bad for everybody but a handful of people.
If our flaws are fixed when we exist in the new earth then their flaws will also be fixed and in the 3rd heaven they can be given in marriage and they will have one child each that is born perfected. God and the Holy Spirit and Christ have been down that road.
Once they have a child they also speak a universe into existence as it will become an inheritance for their child like this universe is an inheritance for Christ who happened to find a wife in the form of Mary of Bethany, aka the Beloved Disciple."


Okay, it sounds like your dropping some knowledge here. Where are you getting your information from?

Andrew 

[MHz]

In this earth all men are from the 1st birth and that is probably based on Heaven as defined in Ge:1 as being from the surface of the earth to the clouds above. You are created as an eternal being and if you eat you can live forever. If you sin you go to an escape proof prison to pay for your sin. The sentence always ends at Judgment Day and when you come out of there your sins are left behind. That is your 2nd birth and you are like Angels in that you are immortal and you can never die, unless you break on of the laws in Re:21 as those ones cover immortals.

Fallen angels have to be put into the Pit before they can be sent to the fiery lake. No men go there when he does as the gates to hell remain locked until Judgement Day which is the next event after Satan is sent to the fiery lake with  all the remaining fallen angels.
Posted bu MHz

"People were made less than perfect and the flaw was we did not know about good and evil yet in the new earth we do know about good and evil and we get to keep all our old rights. Angels is what we become only we have a sinless heart so we never sin.
Angels were not given the emotions that we use to become good parents and good shepherds to the ones we have been given dominion over so they were not given in marriage. That flaw is why Ge:6 turned out bad for everybody but a handful of people.
If our flaws are fixed when we exist in the new earth then their flaws will also be fixed and in the 3rd heaven they can be given in marriage and they will have one child each that is born perfected. God and the Holy Spirit and Christ have been down that road.
Once they have a child they also speak a universe into existence as it will become an inheritance for their child like this universe is an inheritance for Christ who happened to find a wife in the form of Mary of Bethany, aka the Beloved Disciple."


Okay, it sounds like your dropping some knowledge here. Where are you getting your information from?

Andrew

Reading and talking about the Bible for about 30 years. By Bible I mean an e-bible that uses the 1611kjv text. Some parts have been read many times so new information is what I missed on the previous reads. I don't have to search for hours for an answer anymore and that helps the posts as the replies are faster. Hopefully in the debates I covered all the angles and if not somebody will point it out I'm sure.

The NT says some people will be children of the light and others will be children of the darkness. The 12 books listed after Daniel have prophecies that deal only with the transition from the iron/clay to the eternal kingdom. That is used to formulate a doctrine that points to universal salvation in a big way.

One of my better arguments against the trinity is in the verse below and it just promotes that God and the Holy Spirit and Christ are 3 individual beings that are the only ones to come from a place that is known as the 3rd heaven.

Does this verse support one person or two persons, thinking like a modern Lawyer helps.

1Co:15:27:
For he hath put all things under his feet.
But when he saith all things are put under him,
it is manifest that he is excepted,
which did put all things under him.

[Andrew]

Posted by rosered

"It seems MichelleSR    has not been here  for a couple of   months   now Andrew .,Bless your heart .

  But I am always glad when anyone can   Believe God  , That is awesome news       !!"



I know she's been gone for a while now, almost two years, but I just wished she would come back. 
Here's what I'd say to her if she was still here.

"Although you have come into the truth about the spiritual death and reincarnation as fact, you still aren't fully on track. But you exhibited the God flow in certain parts of your post. He's like a ghost writer who inspires you to write what he is witnessing in the Heavenly realm. So you have made it far in the game. I think we're the same age - I'm thirty-six. You sound like a cool chick, but the lake of fire is not now here on earth; it comes in the future before the new birth."

Andrew       

[Andrew]

MHz

How would I find information regarding the concept you alluded to about the perfect child inheriting their own universe.

[MHz]

MHz

How would I find information regarding the concept you alluded to about the perfect child inheriting their own universe.

I search the Bible for similar terms and use the ones that are in the proper context. One topic would be that Jesus fell in love with Mary of Bethany, aka Beloved Disciple, and when He takes her to a mountain top to view the New earth as New Jerusalem land on it after coming from the 3rd heaven is like a husband showing His wife their 'new home'. Being like a bride is not the same as being the bride so the city is glorious but is is a city and not a wife.

M't:21:38:
But when the husbandmen saw the son,
they said among themselves,
This is the heir;
come,
let us kill him,

The attempt to kill him was first tried in Ge:6 as Noah and family were the last 5 fingered people alive on the planet and that is why God caused the flood, no 5 fingered people there would be no 'seed of Eve' to fulfill Ge:3:15. The 2nd was Herod and the slaughter of the innocents.
and let us seize on his inheritance.

[darryl]

the L. of fire is the Second Death....Death will be abolished, ALL death = the Lake of fire will, ultimately, be ABOLISHED. :dsunny:

[WhiteWings]

The same is written here:

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth,[a] for the old heaven and the old earth had passed away, and the sea was no longer there.

[marie glen]

....I've been thinking about this a lot lately - the LOF - and have been going on some about how I truly am becoming convinced that the LOF isn't anything like we Christians have ever thought. Though I don't like to make waves, my passion for all and only truth (in my understanding) far trumps it. :laughing7:

I happened to notice that the two mentions of LOF occur in the scriptures at these two times:

1 - At the Lord's visible return.

2 - And at, what very much appears to me, to be at the "all in all" event --> of 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 (26-28) and Revelation 21:1-5 when God "makes all things new".. ..the portion of the Revelation vision where John saw "a new heavens and a new Earth".

Previous to this, I have been going on (and on :doh: ) about how - because of the pattern of the Fall holy days (Leviticus 23) as a type and shadow (?) of the Lord's long second advent, like the Spring ones so perfectly foretold His first advent - I have come to believe that Judgment Day is actually an age of about 500 years. And believe this is when Jesus will finish the work of drawing all to Himself, John 12:32; and is when Psalm 22:27 will be fufilled - "All the ends of Earth will remember (Hebrew - come to their senses) and turn to the LORD, and all families of the nations will worship before Him". And thus, I believe - no humans in LOF. :faint:

Note - the ones which go to LOF (in Revelation 19) at Jesus's visible return, I believe are not humans but an institution and a belief of modern man "active/alive" at the time of Jesus' visible return.

(I have another note, once I remember what it is, lol. Oh :doh: I remember, the reason I think about 500 years is because of that in between story, "after the thousand years" - the prophesied millennium of Jesus - during which Satan&co. are locked into the bottomless pit (of imperfection/darkness?) and when he is let out, he inspires to war once again and fire falls upon them.. After, which is the resurrection of those not yet saved and sealed, and "the judgment".) So, how long does that last acting out of Satan take? Using up some of the '500 years'.

Um, if you don't know the pattern of the ancient Fall holy days, this is basically meaningless to you? So briefly - the Fall holy days:

TRUMPETS - 10 days later - DAY OF ATONEMENT - 5 days later - TABERNACLES-->Rev.21:3 KJV or YLT, or interlinear

3 PEAKS of the Lord's visible on Earth 2nd advent (imo) being - HIS VISIBLE RETURN - 1000 years later - 'DAY' OF JUDGMENT / ATONEMENT - 500 years later - ALL THINGS NEW / GOD TO tabernacle ON EARTH WITH MANKIND (His family). :banana:

When quoting the verses in 2 Peter (just below) - I have been writing only 2 Peter, so I decided to look them up again and see if I can commit the verse numbers to memory.. And lo and behold, I do think I discovered something I thought interesting.


2 Peter 3:10-13 New King James Version (NKJV)

10 But the day *of the Lord* (kurios - lord, master) will come as a thief in the night, His visible return in fire w/ His angels, 2 Thess.1:7,8 in which the heavens the Greek can be atmosphere  will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the *day of God* (theos - God) because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat. 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for NEW heavens and a NEW earth in-which-righteousness dwells. [Rev.21:1-5; 1 Cor.15:26-28's all in all event? /imo]

Thanks for bearing with me.. :Peace2:
God bless

[marie glen]

..I wanted to clarify just a little.. (imo)

Autumn holy days (Lev.23) pattern & the lake of fire:

TRUMPETS^{seal 7 of Rev. and visible return} - 10 days^millennium later - ^{the "resurrection to judgment"}DAY OF ATONEMENT^{"I.E.., 'day' of judgment} - 5 days^{500 years}later - TABERNACLES-->Rev.21:3 KJV or YLT, or interlinear


2 Thess.1:7,8 - millennium + 500 to - 1 Cor.15:22-28; Rev.21:1-5 = 2 Peter 3:10-13 = the 2 mentions of lof


Thanks for reading, :gsmile:
God bless

[marie glen]

Autumn holy days (Lev.23) pattern & the lake of fire: And 'Day' of Judgment will be that Great Day of Atonement - Jn.12;32; Ps. 22:27

(Imo) In support of the Fall holy days representing Jesus' long second advent and thus, DOJ as DOA, is how His first advent perfectly fulfilled the Spring ones.

When the Hebrew children (nation) left Egypt, it was the 14th of Adar (later known as Nisan). They were instructed to prepare (sacrifice) a lamb between the evenings (which is afternoon). And that night, in the dark of the night, they ate the very first Passover 'meal' of lamb and unleavened bread. Unleavened bread, as they hadn't time to prepare, and let rise, leavened bread.

Later they were instructed on how to observe in memoriam, this miraculous Passover of escape and deliverance from the angel/shadow of death, and from their captivity in harsh slavery.

On the 14th day of the first month, they are to sacrifice an unblemished, spotless lamb at the time of the every day, second, daily temple sacrifice, which was at about our time of three in the afternoon. (The first daily temple sacrifice was at nine in the morning.)

So Nisan 14 is called Passover.

Don't forget, the biblical (Hebrew) day begins at sunset. (I am not Hebrew, so if I am inaccurate somewhere, please forgive me.)

So Passover ends at sunset, beginning Nisan 15, which is called "First day of Unleavened Bread" in memory of the unleavened bread eaten on that day of the original, miraculous Passover.

For seven days they were to eat unleavened bread. Passover, of course is in the Spring. Both, Passover, and First day of Unleavened Bread, are, as we know, two of the three, Spring holy days of Passover week. (Or actually, eight days.)

The third holy day, each year, commemorated the Spring barley harvest. It falls every year on the day of Passover week, the day after the regular weekly Sabbath. (Sabbath, known as Saturday.) This holy day, which every year falls on Sunday, is called "Firstfruits".

To re-cap:

Adar/Nisan 14 is Passover - it begins at sunset on Nisan 13. The Passover lamb is sacrificed at three in the afternoon, on Nisan 14, at the time of the second daily temple sacrifice. The Passover meal is eaten after sunset, which at sunset, begins First day of Unleavened Bread.

Over time these two days became mingled, as to their name.. both days being referred to as Passover, or, as Unleavened Bread.

Passover day is the day the lamb sacrifice is "prepared" and sacrificed, having been selected a few days earlier. (Sorry, I forget how many days earlier, but it coincides with Jesus' "triumphal entry" into Jerusalem, just previous to His arrest and crucifixion.)

Unleavened Bread (Day) is when the Passover is eaten. (Days beginning at sunset.) And the day after that week's Sabbath, is the third holy day/day of rest. (Holy days are also called Sabbaths.)

(Ideas differ, but) Jesus was sentenced at the time of the first daily temple sacrifice, at about our time, 9:00 A.M.

And died at the time of the second daily sacrifice, that day, being also the time of the annual Passover lamb sacrifice.

He was put into the tomb, death, lower part of the earth, the dust of the grave, at sunset, as Unleavened Bread was beginning. Put into the grave, as our unleavened bread of life, upon Unleavened Bread Day.

And He rose exactly three nights later as "Firstfruits" was beginning.

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. - 1 Corinthians 15:20

1 Corinthians 15:23(22-28)
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end.. when ...28 all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. (Rev.21:1-5; Mt.13:33, key word, three?)

1 Corinthians 5:7
..Christ, our passover, was sacrificed for us...

The whole verse - Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For (because!) indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.

As in, ..if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
(Romans 11:16)

    :Peace2: God bless..

[marie glen]

"and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages." - Rev.20:10

How wise, that the fire that destroys, renews. All born again through the 3 R's of UR, all repent (turn, Ps.22:27), all reconciled, all reborn.


:Chinscratch: to the ages of the ages? Is this 2 ages or more or to THE age, of the ages..?  :dontknow:

The reason i'm wondering is because of these verses I read today when Jesus was at the temple during Tabernacles. Tabernacles to me, ultimately equating to Rev.21:1-5 and 1 Cor.15:27,28, the all in all event, so it caught my attention.

"37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture says, 'From your innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 This He spoke of the Spirit.." Jn.7

Which of course is like Rev. 22 (which contains some narrative which is spoken outside the vision, surely? (considering other verses)

I don't know much about the last day of Tabernacles, why it is called the great day, or greatest day of Tabernacles.. but one thing I do think I know, is the verses are very much a cross-reference, both spoken by Jesus, and surely the cross reference is no accident..

Any thoughts or insight on this?

my thoughts: lake of fire in between 'day' of judgment and the all in all event..? or lof is those 7 days of Tabernacles..? Or is the last great day of the festival/feast an 8th day? :doh: can't remember
   :dontknow: :Peace2: