The mark of the beast.

[Barry DuPont]

I would like to purpose that the mark of the beast in revelation is circumcision (to keep the law).

On the forehead (of the serpent image and so mind set) and on the right hand (made with hands). It was thus a confidence in the flesh as Paul speaks about in Phil. 3:1-8.

It was promoted by (but not necessarily exclusively) "those who say they are Jews but lie". [IE the "Judaizers" had infiltrated the seven Churches as they had done in the Churches of Galactica.] (my spelling may be wrong on that one).

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan. 
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 

Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 


Blessings Barry

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I would propose it's not a coming thing, but a thing that happened to all in the garden as a result of one man's sin, or missing the mark, the mark being the mind of Christ.

The revelation of Jesus Christ, ie. Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory, is being revealed in a people called by His name/nature.

Carnal mind = mark in the forehead

Works of the flesh = mark in hand  (hand speaks of works)

[Barry DuPont]

I would say that there is some common ground there Cardinal.
Quote:
Carnal mind = mark in the forehead

Works of the flesh = mark in hand  (hand speaks of works)
End quote.

Would you say the same thing about this text?
Gal 5:10   I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be. 
Gal 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

Barry

[Barry DuPont]

Act 28:3   And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid [them] on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand. 
Act 28:4   And when the barbarians saw the [venomous] beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live. 
{To come under the law}
Act 28:5   And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm. 

Barry

[Dallas]

The mark of the beast is obedience to Caeser.... the idea of a mark or a sign on the forehead and hand is a well known biblically established Jewish figure-or-speech. It has always made reference to being mindful and doing the things of. In this example you see that as concecration of the first born that also signs or marks are used to charge people with being mindful and to do a certain ceremony.

Exodus 13: 2"Sanctify to Me every firstborn, the first offspring of every womb among the sons of Israel, both of man and beast; it belongs to Me."

6"For seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, and on the seventh day there shall be a feast to the LORD.

   7"Unleavened bread shall be eaten throughout the seven days; and nothing leavened shall be seen among you, nor shall any leaven be seen among you in all your borders.

   8"You shall tell your son on that day, saying, 'It is because of what the LORD did for me when I came out of Egypt.'

   9"And it shall serve as a sign to you on your hand, and as a reminder on your forehead, that the law of the LORD may be in your mouth; for with a powerful hand the LORD brought you out of Egypt.

   10"Therefore, you shall keep this ordinance at its appointed time from year to year.

16 "So it shall serve as a sign on your hand and as phylacteries on your forehead, for with a powerful hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt."

[Dallas]

The same idea is through out the scriptures and still used as a common figure of speech in Jerusalem. As far as the mark of the beast, it was talking about worshiping caesar and doing what he wanted, those who wouldn't worship caesar and do what he said were thusly treated and eventually killed.

The mark of the beast isn't an actuall mark, like in Exodus, the mindfulness of remembering the salvation of God for the jews from Egypt and doing the ceremony.... the mark of the beast is likewise a description on peoples mind and actions.

[sheila]

  Wow! Barry,

   Just 'got' your post. Thinking about the most subtil of all

beasts of the feild[serpent]The accusation of being a murderer

[of which Saul/Paul would not deny/Stephen.

  Strange indeed how the 'serpent' was shaken off

    into the FIRE[lake/bundles?sticks /tares for burning]

   and Paul was NOT harmed....Paul not harmed because he was

born prematurely?[speculating here] secound death not harmed

him?   Due to mercy of God/Christ shown unto him? Change

that occurred when a 'flash of light' occurred and Paul heard

the voice of the Lord?

   Thanks Barry!! This post blessed me so much :HeartThrob:

[Beloved Servant]

the mark of the beast is likewise a description on peoples mind and actions.

perfect imperfection!

[Beloved Servant]

...and in Him we are made perfect!
We do not disappear into oblivion in Christ!
We are, as intended, ONE!

[Raggedy Anne]

  Wow! Barry,

   Just 'got' your post. Thinking about the most subtil of all

beasts of the feild[serpent]The accusation of being a murderer

[of which Saul/Paul would not deny/Stephen.

  Strange indeed how the 'serpent' was shaken off

    into the FIRE[lake/bundles?sticks /tares for burning]

   and Paul was NOT harmed....Paul not harmed because he was

born prematurely?[speculating here] secound death not harmed

him?   Due to mercy of God/Christ shown unto him? Change

that occurred when a 'flash of light' occurred and Paul heard

the voice of the Lord?

   Thanks Barry!! This post blessed me so much :HeartThrob:

Another wonderful post by you, Sheila.  I sure do love to read your thoughts.

Anne

[Barry DuPont]

Hey Sheila.
It is an interesting text is it not!

Glad you got something out of it. :)
Barry

[Barry DuPont]

Hey Dallas
There is imo a clear connection between the verse you brought up and placing the mark of the beast as obedience to apostate Israel.

Exd 13:9   And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD'S law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt.   

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. The Lord was Crucified at (old) Jerusalem. 
 
1Cr 2:8   Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 

It is apostate Israel that has become Sodom and "Egypt" here.
The Christians are rejecting Israel's natural things in favor of Israel's spiritual things. Apostate Israel has become just like Egypt trying to enslave in a confidence in the flesh. 
Babylon is old Jerusalem.
The judaizers are throughout the NT writings. This is Paul's "thorn in the flesh". His kindred according to the flesh. Paul writes of them in nearly all his letters. The concision party (Phil. 3:1-8) marking everyone they can with a confidence in the flesh. A circumcision made with hands. It is the synagogue of Satan that is doing this. Those who say they are Jews but do lie.

The Jews are using the Romans for sure just as they did to get Jesus crucified but it is they that are the focus of this "lie". The lie of the serpent. "Surely you shall not die".
Blessings
Barry

[glenda]

I think it is literal.. that the little beast (or man beast/office) rev 13:11-18 (as opposed to 1-10, the world beast or body) which one, or office, brought 'down' fire upon earth in the sight of men (hiroshima and nagasaki) which persuaded men to rebuild the world beast/body... little beast will step into big beast giving breath/authority to it, and causes all w/o an identifying, tracking (modifying) tatoo/code to (at first) not be able to buy or sell, but later accelerates into executing those w/o it.. [likely the last "ten days" of the 45 days of 666 spoken of by Daniel the prophet at the end of his book, Daniel 12:11,12.. "from the time that they remove the daily sacrifice (where upon earth is there the daily sacrifices of prayer offered (everyday, clue, mt 24:1,2, not one stone, not one).. about 3 and 1/2 hebrew years later is the (666)abomination/great affront to God, set-up.. but happy the one who comes to 45 days later [c.r. mt 24:29-32; 2thess 1:7; 1thess 4:15,16; jn 11:24]

[Barry DuPont]

Hey Sheila
Re-read your post :)

My views:
Paul would not be hurt by the second death because he was putting off (like dung) a confidence in the flesh, even though he very much could have boasted in the flesh.
He would be "found in Him not having a righteousness of" his own "which is of the law".

The serpent however would be thrown into the lake of fire.
Blessings Barry

[Dallas]

Hello Glenda;

It is common knowledge that 666 is the Hebrew number lettering system that they developed while in slavery to uphold the heriage of their beliefs.

While in captivity the Hebrew attached a numerical value to each character in thier alphabet, each character was a characteristic of God, and since they weren't allowed to write Godly words to remember and worship God in captivity to remeber him by they wrote in thier childrens names.

They still use this numbering system today, every Hebrew child knows their number...

The number six hundred and sixty six is the name, Nero Caesar. The Roman Emporer.

From which the smaller office as you put it came, Titus Caesar, who invaded Jerusalem and laid waste the Temple and stood in the holy of holies and said, "See I have destroyed your God, therefore you known that I am God"

666, is Nero Casaer, and the son of perdition was Titus...

[Barry DuPont]

The 666 that is in the bible is this: (I edited this post and may and to re-write some points but it still severs as an into IMO)
1Ki 10:13 Now King Solomon gave the queen of Sheba all she desired, whatever she asked, besides what Solomon had given her according to the royal generosity. So she turned and went to her own country, she and her servants. 
1Ki 10:14 The weight of gold that came to Solomon yearly was six hundred and sixty-six talents of gold, 

The Israelites desired a king against the advice of God. Hence the significance of the number and its attachment to the old economy.
Jesus the king of kings and the firstfruits Christians become persist and kings.
Once again this is about a movement from Old (kings) to New (kings). From Babylon (old jerusalem) to New Jerusalem.
From old mark (circumcision) to new (Christ is the removal of the flesh) mark. 
In this way there is no difference from revelation and the book of Hebrews for example. Why not harmonize the scriptures instead of making Revelation something entirely different.
JMO
Blessings Barry

[Dallas]

Why not harmonize the scriptures instead of making Revelation something entirely different.

That's what truth does. The Hebrew numbering system has been around for thousands of years, at least 1000 bc.

What you offered doesn't harmonize, it mystifies.

When John brings up the number of the beast and the number is of a man, John was being quite specific. Just as he was when he said let the reader who understands determine it.

John was not refering to some transfering, he was identifying.

http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/c/chilton-david.html


Go here and download this for free, there it will show you directly the whole thing.

[Dallas]

If you scroll down the page here you will find the hebrew numbering ledgend for 666.

http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/c/chilton-david.html

[Barry DuPont]

I offered you a 666 that is in the bible and you offer me conjecture and a 666 that is extra biblical.
That is the problem with your model of interpretation of Revelation IMO. It is extra biblical in nature.

And it in no way harmonizes with any of the other epistles that we have before us. For no other NT writings speak of the matters that you would have Revelation speak of. Simply because revelation is quite symbolic you take freedoms that are not offered in the other writings and in no other epistles. 

Why have a New Jerusalem, if Babylon is something other than the old one then we cannot make sense of this.
Why have two different "marks", one of Christ and the other of something else if the something else is not of the old covenant???. IE circumcision.

Your interpretation would take the conflict of the new and old that is visible in all of the rest of the New Testament and then change it as soon as it hits Revelation.

You would have Revelation stand alone, independent of the rest of the New Testament IMO.
Blessings to you
Barry

[Dallas]

You would have Revelation stand alone, independent of the rest of the New Testament IMO.

No I'm not. In fact revelation is the complete culmination of the old testament prophetic writtings.

To dismiss the culture and relevent political situations of the people involved is irresponsible.

For instance...

Paul said Jesus is the only name by which a man may be saved.

Many doctrines have been based on this scripture. However when you take in the current situation the people were living in you realize that when Paul penned this statement that he was actually making a political statement. The Roman coin was enscribed with a picture of Caesar, but it also had the enscription, "The only name in which a man may be saved."       When Paul wrote it he was protesting Caesar, but your translation standard would proclude this truth. You can not exclude historical and cultural relevance to understanding, otherwise you are left with opinionated translations verses reality.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: That's interesting.....do you have a link for that about Caesar's coinage? Blessings....

[glenda]

hi! Surely the Bible is a complete book of life and encompasses all of life and not only the old covenant making way for the new after it fulfilled its purpose.. and also surely "His coming" of Mt 24, wasn't fully fulfilled in the day of Titus? Paul wrote there are many antichrists.. there has been many times of apocalypse/collapse, but there is still the climactic global one. It's my practice to earnestly pray when wanting the answers to something and not resting til there's that move or turn of the Spirit within which bears witness "this is truth", when I prayed concerning the book of revelation, it came immediately back to me "what are the strongest forces at work upon humanity, today?" Most folks are caught up in a type of apocalypse of yesteryear, hence the red herrings of the catholic church, Israel (but,"whoever curses Israel will be cursed"), and other theories. A lot of folks believe the (gobal) harlot, the world beast/body, the little beast/last caesar, and the false prophet.. biggest false prophet of all time/a strong delusion/adult fairy tale and philosophy of today, are all one and the same!
-Surely the two advents of Christ are often prophesied in one breath like one advent almost, as it is also w/ prophecy.. a fulfilling for the day it's given and a fulfillment for the climactic global 'end'.
- Let me call your attention to rev 13:13, the little beast/final caesar&final"prince to come"(of Dn9:27) is the one who brought 'down' fire upon hiroshima and nagasaki! This is also the opening of the 6th seal in the 6th chapter of rev.. Bible prophecy also pertains to today.. So many say the u.s. isn't in bible prophecy but it is in the book of revelation at least twice - rev 12:14, the 2nd migration of the faith after the mantle moved from Israel to Christ-ians. Note the 1st migration of the (new) faith was (for a large part) to europe after 70a.d. (12:6 safe til the renaissance).. [the 2nd is an office of man which wrought fire(13:13)].
Many blessings!
P.S. - the four horsemen of the apocalypse after their seal is opened continue their gallop/progression to 'the end'.. there's a trick or twist here which hides much of the vision, for each of the seals are described here as they are when they are Opened, and also, however, as they are in their fully progressed form at 'the end'. Therefore some things which occur very late, are described here so early in the narrative! This fancy footwork hides and confuses a lot of the revelation vision (timing and sequence) "for a time".  The opening of the 6th seal is very dramatic, it's something totally new.. but the conditions of it are all described as they occur at the initial opening, and also as they occur later, after "a pause" where this great new "wind is not allowed to hurt the earth or sea or any tree" for a while (7:1). Can we believe that the opening of thermo-nuclear weaponry is not mentioned in bible prophecy? not just the fire at 'the end' but the actual great spiritual earthquake of its opening.. "then the kings.. and the men and the commanders hid themselves in the caves.." - remember bomb shelters? [Another note: the 4th seal is not "hades" but is the grave, including the mass grave wherever it occurs..] "Apocalypse" the lesson of, is being deeply engraved upon every heart. It's the story of human history, and also of every human life (apocalypse). It's the difference between life (God) and nonlife/death.. "good and evil". False must, and can only, fall, crash.. in a self destructive puff of smoke.. Lesson, we cannot break God's law, cannot do evil/nonlife, for all untruth, evil, nonlife can only ever crash. Apocalypse. To be divorced or separate from God is impossible, for God iS Life. Therefor this life/human history, is, apocalypse.

[Barry DuPont]

You would have Revelation stand alone, independent of the rest of the New Testament IMO.

No I'm not. In fact revelation is the complete culmination of the old testament prophetic writtings.

To dismiss the culture and relevent political situations of the people involved is irresponsible.

For instance...

Paul said Jesus is the only name by which a man may be saved.

Many doctrines have been based on this scripture. However when you take in the current situation the people were living in you realize that when Paul penned this statement that he was actually making a political statement. The Roman coin was enscribed with a picture of Caesar, but it also had the enscription, "The only name in which a man may be saved."       When Paul wrote it he was protesting Caesar, but your translation standard would proclude this truth. You can not exclude historical and cultural relevance to understanding, otherwise you are left with opinionated translations verses reality.

Dallas, I see where you are coming from. IMHO however it misses the point. Revelation is predominantly about covenant issues much like Hebrews.
Blessings Barry

[Barry DuPont]

ASV
Hbr 9:6 Now these things having been thus prepared, the priests go in continually into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the services; 
Hbr 9:7 but into the second the high priest alone, once in the year, not without blood, which he offereth for himself, and for the errors of the people: 
Hbr 9:8 the Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holy place hath not yet been made manifest, while the first tabernacle is yet standing; 
Hbr 9:9 which [is] a figure for the time present; according to which are offered both gifts and sacrifices that cannot, as touching the conscience, make the worshipper perfect,

KJV
Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 
Rev 11:2   But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.
Revelation is signifying that there would be not outer court in the fullness of the new covenant. 

Rev 11:8   And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 

Rev 14:8   And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.   

The holy city and the great city and Babylon are all Jerusalem.
Hbr 13:14   For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come. 

Hebrews and Revelation are saying the same things and they are about "covenant". The mark of the beast is the old mark. 666 is about the old kings. Babylon is the old Jerusalem. ECT Those that abide in the old will be hurt by the second death when the old visibly comes crashing down because it has been fulfilled.
JMO
Blessings Barry

[sheila]

 well, Caesar is certainly a 'type' of 'the prince of this world' and

  qualifies for the 'mark' of Cain..killer of brethern...and

  those born after the flesh that persecute those born of the promise.

  BUT MANY MEN MEET THAT QUALIFICATION....

   as far as the Queen of Sheba paying 'tribute" to Solomon

  with talents of gold, we know it's not our 'gold' God treasures

and wants.He rewards with talents of light...He wants us to

iincrease in spiritual treasure in heaven


   I beleive that there is a 'fleshly' fulfillment and spiritual

fullfillment of God's prophecy. The natural world /seen creation

and the as yet unseen/spiritual creation will both expierence

these things.

 

  thanks,  Sheila