The Day of the Lord will begin with the catastrophic shaking of the earth
Here is the quake [Revelation 6:12; 8:5]
Also know that the seals are not actual events of the tribulation period
These must be removed by the Lord from the scroll of the tribulation events before the scroll can open .... all 7 must be removed .... and then the tribulation period will come suddenly and without warning to earth dwellers .... but not before the 144,000 mortal Israelites on the earth are sealed and today's church is immortalized and in heaven
The seals contain notations of the prevalent conditions that will exist during the actual tribulation period .... these are previews of the period seen in heaven only [not by mortals on the earth] by those that dwell in heaven as the Lord opens the seals .... the 24 elders and the great multitude, and the angelic realm .... all are present in heaven with the Lord for the seal removal
The conditions implied in the seals of the tribulation period will include the following: [Revelation's unfolding is revolving and repetitive]
1. The conquering of the gospel during the period [Matthew 24:14; 7:1-8 and 14:1-7]
2. Intense warfare [Revelation 8:7-12, 17:16-18 and 18:1-21; 9:1-21; 12:12; 12:13-17; 13:4; 14:14-20; 16:1-21; 19:11-21]
3. Economic collapse [Revelation 8:7-12 and 18:1-21]
4. Massive human infliction and death [Revelation 9:1-11; 9:13-19; 13:7-15; 14:13; 18:1-21]
5. Martyrdom [Revelation 13:7-15; 15:2-3; 20:4 (those beheaded)]
6. Human reaction to the Lord's wrath [this seal previews the beginning of the tribulation events]
7. There is a short pause in heaven just before the tribulation events on the earth begin
The actual events of the Lord's coming judgment will begin suddenly and with no warning to the earth dwellers [Matthew 24:21; 24:37-39; 1Thessalonians 5:1-3]
As a snare it will come with no escape [Luke 21:35]
The Lord's call for the living believer [and including those asleep in death] at the time will come just before [Matthew 25:1-13; 1Corinthians 15:20-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; Revelation 3:10; 18:4]
The following paragraph, from another article here on tentmaker, is located at:
"Seven Year(s) Great Tribulation" -- A Non-existent Lynch-pin Phrase
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3574.msg37796#msg37796
My mind is dazzled by the almost unbelievable fact that people's lips say they believe the Bible then make a word such as "rapture" or a phrase such as "7 year(s) great tribulation," both of which are conclusively non-existent in the Holy Writings of the Oracles of God, to be kind of lynch-pins for something as important as the nature of the transition from "the last days" of this eon into "the new day" of the next. Of course this is done with other matters too, like the phrase "original sin" or "immortal soul," among many. It is absolutely a violation of my conscience as a Christian for whom the Bible is the objective standard for my faith and practice. "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Is 8:20)
(I have the materials but have yet to add a rebuttal to using Da 9:24-27 in which there is only a "week of years" and no existence of the word "tribulation;" hence, there is again no "Seven years great tribulation!")
70 x 7
The time frame of all unfulfilled visionary prophecy is still future. All fulfilled prophecy has been fulfilled through the end of the 69th week of the 70 weeks of years decreed for national Israel. A week of years is the Jewish "heptad". Each year represents 360 literal prophetic days. This calculates to a 7 year period of time or 2,520 days. The 69 weeks of years represent a time period of 173,880 prophetic days or 483 years.
This time frame began at the decree to return and build the city Jerusalem from the Babylonian captivity (under Persian rule) in 445 B.C. 483 prophetic years lapsed in about 33 A.D. and the Lord was then cut off at His first coming. There is one "heptad" (one 7 year period) remaining for the completion of the decreed amount of total time of 490 years and this 7 year period is still future.
It is significant that the nation of unbelieving Israel is existing as an independent political entity in the Land of Israel today after many centuries of domination by the Gentiles and exile from their land. They are there to experience the 70th week decreed which is still pending.
The nation's continuous intransigence against God's providence and direction has resulted in the loss of His personal guidance. Israel is still in this condition at the present time. God's long term preservation of Israel's national identity is specifically for His ultimate plans.....not Israel's self-generated nationalism.
The years following the reign of Israel's prominent kings David and his son Solomon included political division of the nation and subsequent invasion and assimilation of ten of the tribes of Israel by the Assyrians. Successive dominance of the remainder of the nation followed by the three empires of neo-Babylon, Persia, and Grecia.
The neo-Babylonians conquered what was left of the remnant, took many captives, and relocated the population. It was under the rule of the next empire, Persia, that a remnant of Israel was allowed to return to the Land of Israel (445 B.C.). This began the count down of the 70 weeks of years (490 literal years). 483 years have lapsed with one 7 year period yet to be experienced by Israel after their second return from the nations of the Gentiles to the Land of Israel. [Daniel 9:24-27]
If the death of Jesus occurred around 33 A.D. then the following calculation can be made. The time lapse would be 444 calendar years to the first century from 445 B.C. plus 33 additional years to equal 477 years. The conversion factor for 360 day prophetic years can be calculated by dividing 365 by 360 which is 1.0138. Prophetic years are shorter so there are more of them included in the time frame of 477 calendar years.
There are 483.5826 (477 x 1.0138) prophetic years in the time frame. If one adjusts this result by leap year days, the final calculation is very close to 483 years (69 weeks of years). Daniel's vision of the time frame allows for this amount of time to lapse after which the Messiah Prince would be cut off and have nothing. The last segment of 7 years (1 week of years) is still yet future and requires Israel's return in part to the Land of Israel from the nations. This final 7 years will include future prophetic events leading up to the visible return of Israel's Messiah who is Jesus Christ.
The covenant of 70 weeks of years is described in the 9th chapter of Daniel. The Lord will confirm this covenant by executing the last 7 years including the 6 objectives for national Israel at the time of the end which is still pending. These objectives must be met for national Israel at that time since most of the nation has been in the state of unbelief. Some will turn and accept their Messiah, Jesus Christ.This peroid will be exactly 2,520 prophetic days long and there will be another 30 days and 45 days added. The Lord will turn on Satan's beast and his kingdom and destroy it during the 30 day period ending with the battle of Armageddon. The Lord will then appear to the world and gather all of the survivors of the 70th week and separate them for enterence into His kingdom during the next 45 days.
Satan and his fallen angelics are coming to the earth at the beginning of the 70th week and it will take the first 1,260 days for him to develop his kingdom in the Middle East including the invasion and occupation of Israel, Jerusalem, and the temple mount. He will also gain a large human following that will worship him as a god. He will then rule most of the Middle East for the next 1,260 days (42 months). The Lord will then force him and his followers to Armageddon and destroy his kingdom within 30 days.
There is nothing recorded in the scope of the visionary prophecy time frame presented in Scripture between the end of the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th. The end time frames of the O.T. visions of the prophets, the Lord's discourse in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation beginning in chapter 4 are all about the 70th week which is still pending. The Lord's discourse concerning the time of the end is all focused upon the generation of national Israel that will be living during the 70th week. No known events on the earth are included in the time lapse between the end of the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th. There have been many attempts to find them or fit some in, but they are not there. All of the time lapse of last 2,000+ years up to this day is not in the visions.
His discourse is presented three times and all are focused upon the future 70th week. Luke has the armies of the "antichrist" (little horn, beast) surrounding Jerusalem and Matthew has the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place (temple mount). Luke does record the fate of the apostles in the first century ("before all of these things" – before the events of the future 70th week). Everything else is the same. There is no "70 A.D." picture in the scope. 70 A.D. events occurred long after the 69th week and were certainly not part of the 70th which is still pending. The people of the prince that shall come were not the Romans in the first century, but will be the followers of the "antichrist" during the 70th week. The 6th king "position" that John sees, the king that "is", will be the little horn of Daniel's visions and not a Roman king in the first century. John sees the "things that shall be hearafter" .... the 70th week which is still pending.
The Lord also addresses the mystery kingdom of the Church (composed of a few Israelites and many Gentiles) in the parables of Matthew 25. His focus is on His "harpazo" which will separate professing Christianity into those that are ready and those that are not. The first (both dead and living together) will enter the heavenly dimension and the rest of the living will remain to experience the 70th week. Some of national Israel and the nations will repent and turn to the Lord during His hour of trial, most will not. Some of these will be martyrs and some will survive the period. The development of this mystery kingdom began at Pentecost and will culminate when the fullness of the Gentiles are added. He will then execute His "harpazo" and ensuing hour of trial.[Romans 11:25]
70 A.D. is not in the scope and this can be verified by comparing O.T. visions of the 70th week with the historical record of the Roman invasions of 70 A.D. They simply do not match up. There are many events in visionary prophecy that are not a reflection of 70 A.D. The 70th week is a defined time lapse of 7 years and this balance of unfulfilled prophecy will begin at the onset of the period and will then continue beyond the end of it. Neither is the Church in view in this scope of the 490 years which is composed of both Jew and Gentile. The Church has no national identity and is not in the scope on the earth during the time frame. The Church will be in heaven observing the events of the period and will return with the Lord at the end of it. Revelation switches back and forth from heaven to the earth during the period. The Church can be found in the heavenly state and identified as Revelation unfolds.
The precept of the time frame of the 70 weeks decreed for national Israel should be applied to all unfilled prophecy written in Scripture for accurate exegesis. All of the content of future events can be identified and fit exactly into this time frame. Most traditional interpretations do not incorporate this method of exegesis and all of them have difficulties that require some level of apologetics, selective allegory, contextual extraction, misapplication of Scriptures, and deliberate elimination. I would suggest the student of Bible prophecy test the precept of the 70 weeks decreed against all known Scriptural passages related to visionary prophecy. I will be glad to assist any one with reconciliations related to the pre-conceptions of other views.
The Lord's Call
The Lord's call for today's church will be a one time event that is still future for all believers and it will occur just before the day of the Lord's coming hour of trial .... the tribulation period which will begin and extend for 2,550 days [Daniel 12]
1Corinthians
15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Thessalonians
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Those sleeping in Jesus are not immortalized very time one dies physically .... they are sleeping .... and waiting
Some teach the error that the "dead in Christ" are immortalized at their death, reside in heaven, and are those presented in Revelation 4:4, 5:9-10, and 7:9-17
This would mean that the above event of the "rapture" would have to take place every time one dies physically in the Lord .... many trumpets would have had to sound over the past 2,000 years
There is only one last trumpet related to this one time event
The Lord will only awake them once .... at His "harpazo" action for the church which is still future
Those living at the moment will not have time to die physically, but will be changed to immortality instantly
One trumpet sounding, one shout [command], and one immortalization of the Body of Christ
Paul's explanation was to assure the Thessalonian believers that those already dead in Christ would be preserved, and would be awakened at the last trumpet and immortalized along with the living believers at the time
All will be immortalized and "caught up" together at the same time .... not some before the time
The statement that God will bring those asleep "with" Jesus does not mean that these will already be immortalized and "with" Him when He comes for the living believers
..... it means that God will not leave the dead in Christ sleeping when he immortalizes the Body of Christ, but will awaken and immortalize them with the living believers
John
11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
This event will take place just before the Lord's coming judgment [hour of trial] as evidenced by Revelation 3:10, 4:4, 5:9-10, and 7:9-17
These believers will be immortal, in heaven, and will observe the Lord's removal of the seals of the scroll which contains the actual events of the tribulation period which begin in chapter 8 [the seals are a preview of the prevalent conditions of the coming tribulation]
willieH: ...WHEW! :heat: Does anyone have a toothpick? :pointlaugh:
A Plea for Simplicity Instead of Bamboozelment.
Of course, having these previous writings available, you post lengthy "boiler plate" on a variety of eschatological topics. This is understandable for an initial post; but, it would be much easier for readers and those attempting to answer or discuss what you post if you could be more concise, specially if someone's post focuses on a particular thing. My very real reason is that Racial Dispensationalism's theories depend on certain assumptions that undergird the stucture. If they cannot be proven, the rest collapses. Distractions from a plethora of fine points must be avoided. Based on what I've seen so far, that may prove to be barking up the wrong tree.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Throughout your subsequent posts you never answered my assertion. I found no chapter and verse for any "Seven years great tribulation" in anything you wrote. With no basis in Scripture I must be faithful to God's Word and suspend belief in it as part of how I will not be deceived. While looking for something that isn't there is always difficult, it was a little like searching through the proverbial haystack trying to find where you attempt to justify using such a lynch-pin phrase as "seven years great tribulation." I attempt to make my confessions of faith with the actual words God chose to make His revelation known and heartily advise you adhere to the same rule.
The events of the Lord's hour of trial will take place between these two passages of scripture:
Notice the differences conveyed between the beginning events .... and the ending events
Beginning - Revelation 6:12-17
The beginning of the tribulation of those days
earthquake [note 8:5]
darkness: caused by the destruction on the earth [note 8:7-13]
stars [fallen angelics] falling to the earth [note 9:1-21, 12:4,9]
humans intransigent attitude and their hiding from the Lord's coming wrath [note 8:7-13, 9:1-21, 16:1-21]
no sign of the Son of Man
earth dwellers do not see Him
no gatherings
Ending - Matthew 24:29-31; [25:31-46]
after the tribulation of those days
no earthquake [note Rev 16:18. This quake at Armageddon will occur before the end of the tribulation]
darkness: caused by the cosmic disturbances.
stars [cosmic] falling [cosmic disturbances], not to the earth [just one would obliterate the earth]
sign of the Son of Man
earth dwellers see Him
humans mourn when they see Him
gatherings of the mortals of Israel and the nations that are left
The Day of the Lord
Isaiah 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts [Shall come] upon everything proud and lofty, Upon everything lifted up -- And it shall be brought low --
Isaiah 13:6 Wail, for the day of the LORD [is] at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it.
Isaiah 34:8 For [it is] the day of the LORD's vengeance, The year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
Jeremiah 46:10 For this [is] the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, A day of vengeance, That He may avenge Himself on His adversaries. The sword shall devour; It shall be satiated and made drunk with their blood; For the Lord GOD of hosts has a sacrifice In the north country by the River Euphrates.
Lamentations 2:22 "You have invited as to a feast day The terrors that surround me. In the day of the LORD's anger There was no refugee or survivor. Those whom I have borne and brought up My enemies have destroyed."
Ezekiel 13:5 "You have not gone up into the gaps to build a wall for the house of Israel to stand in battle on the day of the LORD.
Ezekiel 30:3 For the day [is] near, Even the day of the LORD [is] near; It will be a day of clouds, the time of the Gentiles.
Joel 1:15 Alas for the day! For the day of the LORD [is] at hand; It shall come as destruction from the Almighty.
Joel 2:1 Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; For the day of the LORD is coming, For it is at hand:
Joel 2:11 The LORD gives voice before His army, For His camp is very great; For strong [is the One] who executes His word. For the day of the LORD [is] great and very terrible; Who can endure it?
Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
Joel 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD [is] near in the valley of decision.
Amos 5:18 Woe to you who desire the day of the LORD! For what good [is] the day of the LORD to you? It [will be] darkness, and not light.
Amos 5:20 [Is] not the day of the LORD darkness, and not light? [Is it not] very dark, with no brightness in it?
Obadiah 1:15 " For the day of the LORD upon all the nations [is] near; As you have done, it shall be done to you; Your reprisal shall return upon your own head.
Zephaniah 1:7 Be silent in the presence of the Lord GOD; For the day of the LORD [is] at hand, For the LORD has prepared a sacrifice; He has invited His guests.
Zephaniah 1:8 "And it shall be, In the day of the LORD's sacrifice, That I will punish the princes and the king's children, And all such as are clothed with foreign apparel.
Zephaniah 1:14 The great day of the LORD [is] near; [It is] near and hastens quickly. The noise of the day of the LORD is bitter; There the mighty men shall cry out.
Zephaniah 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold Shall be able to deliver them In the day of the LORD's wrath; But the whole land shall be devoured By the fire of His jealousy, For He will make speedy riddance Of all those who dwell in the land.
Zephaniah 2:2 Before the decree is issued, [Or] the day passes like chaff, Before the LORD's fierce anger comes upon you, Before the day of the LORD's anger comes upon you!
Zephaniah 2:3 Seek the LORD, all you meek of the earth, Who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden In the day of the LORD's anger.
Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
1 Thess 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
The beginning of the day of the Lord's coming wrath upon the earth:
Revelation
6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
The immortals of today's church [the 24 elders and the great multitude from all nations, people, kindreds, and tongues that no man can count] will observe the removal of the seals and the ensuing events of the tribulation period of His wrath against a world of human intransigence and unbelief .... them that dwell in heaven and are around the throne worshiping in His temple [Revelation 4,5,7,11,12,13,17,19,20]
The Lord's View of His coming day:
The Olivette discourse is directed to and focused upon the believing remnant part of national Israel living at the time of the end .... not the church
The kingdom of heaven ..... the professing church, is addressed in Matthew 25:1-13 and in Revelation 1,2, and 3
Those who truly believe, living at the time, and are not just pretenders [including the deceived] are noted in Revelation 4,5,7,11,12,17,19, and 20 .... before, during, and after the tribulation period
Those who who are sitting on the fence of professing christianity will be rejected and will enter the tribulation period on the earth with all of the other earth dwellers and then the signs and events of the period will ensue
There will be no signs or warnings given just before the Lord brings His wrath of the tribulation period
All of the signs and events given will occur during the period and will point to His appearing to the world at the end of the tribulation period when He will take back the earth and rule over it Himself
There is a time that one cannot know ..... and a time that one can know
The first is His sudden intervention to judge the world for intransigence and unbelief .... the second is His appearing at the end of the tribulation which will be preceded by the signs and events of the period
None of these things will actualize until the tribulation period begins
This is why He has said that one must be "ready" for at a time that you think not [cannot know] the Son of Man will come
Believe this .... there is no serious and knowledgeable student of the prophetic scriptures who is not in a ready and continuous state of expectation so that will be caught off guard by His sudden intervention to bring His wrath .... living every day of one's life in His walk and focused upon this truth
The scoffers of the last days are doing these things:
Many have been taught replacement theologies and take national Israel's position in the scriptures for themselves ..... this is an error that is promoted by the false teacher and false prophet for the purpose of removing Israel from the unfulfilled portion of the prophetic scriptures by flawed interpretation
The other objective of the false teacher's motivation is to attempt to eliminate the Lord's early call for today's believers who will be living at the time just before He brings His unmitigated wrath upon a world of intransigence including the pseudo professing christianity of the same
Once these two objectives have been met, this opens up the scriptures for all sorts of manipulative ambitions and it lays the doctrinal foundations for those who come in His name and at the same time mislead and deceive those who will follow them
One will find the denial of both of these two essential precepts of truth existing in most all of the pseudo "christian" movements that have been touted by false teachers and false prophets
This essential extraction and perversion of Biblical interpretation must be carried out in order for the proposed theology to be sold to the unwary and one needs to test these aberrant movements for the presence of taking an aggressive standing against these two essential precepts of biblical truth
If present, this almost always indicates the existence of cult type leadership deception which will include many other falsehoods even to the extent of destroying one's salvation
The Lord's "throne" is symbolic of His heavenly government
Notice who is associated with Him before he opens the seals of the coming tribulation period and the administration of His wrath upon the earth
Revelation 4:3
And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and [there was] a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald.
Revelation 4:4
Around the throne [were] twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.
Revelation 4:5
And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire [were] burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Revelation 4:6
Before the throne [there was] a sea of glass, like crystal. And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, [were] four living creatures full of eyes in front and in back.
Revelation 4:9
Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever,
Revelation 4:10
the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
Revelation 5:1
And I saw in the right [hand] of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals.
Revelation 5:6
And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
Revelation 5:7
Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
Revelation 5:11
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands,
Revelation 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power [Be] to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"
Revelation 7:9
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
Revelation 7:10
and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation [belongs] to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
Revelation 7:11
All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
Revelation 7:15
"Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.
Revelation 7:17
"for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."
Revelation 8:3
Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Revelation 11:16
And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,
Revelation 14:3
They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred [and] forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.
Revelation 14:5
And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.
Revelation 19:4
And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, "Amen! Alleluia!"
Revelation 19:5
Then a voice came from the throne, saying, "Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!"
Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them [the 24 elders and the great multitude], and judgment was committed to them. Then [I saw] the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received [his] mark on their foreheads or on their hands [those who will become believers and are killed during the tribulation period]. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
:cloud9: I can see you've certainly done your part to get the scriptures in you, Stephen, and that is to be commended. What an even greater blessing you are going to be to the body when He begins to turn that water into wine. Blessings to you.....
willieH: Hi Stephen... :hithere:
No offense new brother, ...but what are you hoping to accomplish by presenting all this "theological" thickness in this thread? :wacko2:
Though I have a much different take on what the Scriptures in Revelation communicate then you express, ...there is no sense in getting into that for the moment...
Please know that you are considered by all here, a SON of the MOST HIGH, ...and no offense is intended in my words!
I really mean this with loving sincerity (and in many ways I don't have much room to criticize... for the membership here can surely testify, that on
several occasions, ...I have been guilty of many "long winded" posts), but the content in your orations in this thread are so wearying, (at least for me), it pretty much ends up going nowhere... :mshock:
It is quite possible that you have much to share from your heart... and some portions of your findings, might even bear truth...
But spilling out a TON of sand, then expecting us to count the grains ain't gonna work! (again, at least for me -- can't speak for anyone else.)
When it comes to "end time" prophecy... it is more likely that NO ONE knows the truth... and really, what does it matter?
Preachers have been coming out of the woodwork for centuries claiming this and that, and next week or next month, or in 1949 or in 2000 or the new one on the horizon -- 2012... but one by one, they all bite the dust they emerged from, and life goes on...
What is important is
not the END or when it comes... what IS IMPORTANT, is what happens
BEFORE it...
God's
WORD is pretty plain... Don't worry about TOMORROW or the END, for the EVIL of the day you are living IN, is plenty enough to deal with... :dontknow:
JESUS said it
much better than I just did:
Matt 6:34 -- Take NO THOUGHT for the MORROW, for the MORROW shall take thought for the things of itself! Sufficient unto the DAY is the EVIL thereof...
No matter what we might think we "know" about the END... there is nothing we can do about it... And if we are actively preaching the GOOD NEWS of the
GOSPEL of
PEACE... and therein we are about our Father's business, ...then it doesn't matter when the end comes... whether it be tomorrow, next week, or 100 years after we die... :dontknow:
On the other hand, if we become so obsessed with peripheral teachings, which have nothing to do with the GOOD NEWS... then we are not good stewards, and we are not doing as He commanded --
Matt 28:19-20peace brother... and slow down a bit & relax, ...get into a conversation with someone... instead of hammering away with the assumption that everyone is interested in the "end"... (again no offense intended toward you!)
Let's use
NOW to preach the
GOSPEL, and when we DO get to the "END", ...the Father will have
WORDS such as: "well done, good and faithful servant..." for our ears to hear!
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: willieH on May 25, 2009, 09:07:02 AM
...I have been guilty of many "long winded" posts), but the content in your orations in this thread are so wearying, (at least for me), it pretty much ends up going nowhere... :mshock:
It is quite possible that you have much to share from your heart... and some portions of your findings, might even bear truth...
But spilling out a TON of sand, then expecting us to count the grains ain't gonna work! (again, at least for me -- can't speak for anyone else.)
............................
peace brother... and slow down a bit & relax, ...get into a conversation with someone... instead of hammering away with the assumption that everyone is interested in the "end"... (again no offense intended toward you!)
...willieH :cloud9:
Yeah, that's for me too! "...spilling out a TON of sand, then expecting us to count the grains." WillieH sees the truth!
Welcome to you Stephen; but, try to interact with people here rather than re-post "boiler plate" from your site. I went there and saw a lot of work, if you wrote it yourself. You can refer us to there, even post some of it in the right places. Just talk with us when we talk with you, please! Certain people here may believe similar to you on the nearer in time eschatology. I was raised in a similar "racial dispensational" eschatology, so I don't reject it out of ignorance. But if we can't talk back and forth, dialog, why bother posting a mountain of things that many around here could regugitate themselves, whether they think that way or not?
I hope you can hear this as advice coming from a Moderator.
Well on the bright side if there is a "first to the natural" regarding Armageddon and tribulation etc etc we just might have been given a spot at the front of the line to see through a porthole into the future. :winkgrin:
Personally I think God's plan for Israel ended with the complete destruction of Jerusalem that happened 70 years after the famed 70 AD destruction. But if not then Israel today has to contend with the prophetic diminished value of an Israeli after 60 years of age now that Israel has been here for 60 years so we can expect something to significantly reduce its value and worlds standing in the very near future.
But since Jesus the son of Mary's is no more returning to Jerusalem than I am to where my ancestors are from in Scotland what does all this have to do with the day star coming forth from our hearts and us becoming in Christ the Body that is exactly as the Head?
Everyone's personal "tribulation" has already been determined as 'that what I feared most has come upon me". What we need to do is as Paul said and be able to stand in the day of evil........ like Job was able to.
Blessings
Doug
Jeremiah
30:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
30:2 Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.
30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
30:4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
30:5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.
30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
30:12 For thus saith the LORD, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous.
30:13 There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines.
30:14 All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased.
30:15 Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee.
30:16 Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey.
30:17 For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.
30:18 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.
30:19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
30:20 Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them.
30:21 And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD.
30:22 And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
30:23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked.
30:24 The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he hath done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.
Ezekiel
36:1 Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD:
36:2 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession:
36:3 Therefore prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people:
36:4 Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about;
36:5 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.
36:6 Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen:
36:7 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I have lifted up mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame.
36:8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.
36:9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown:
36:10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:
36:11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
36:12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.
36:13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations:
36:14 Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the Lord GOD.
36:15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord GOD.
36:16 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
36:17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
36:18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
36:20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.
36:21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
36:29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
36:30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
36:31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
36:32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
36:33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
36:34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
36:36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.
36:37 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.
36:38 As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
Zechariah
14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
Micah
5:1 Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.
5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
5:3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.
5:4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.
5:5 And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.
5:6 And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.
5:7 And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.
5:8 And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.
5:9 Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off.
5:10 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots:
5:11 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strong holds:
5:12 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand; and thou shalt have no more soothsayers:
5:13 Thy graven images also will I cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee; and thou shalt no more worship the work of thine hands.
5:14 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee: so will I destroy thy cities.
5:15 And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.
Ezekiel
39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
39:3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
39:5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
39:10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.
39:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
39:12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
39:13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.
39:14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
39:15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.
39:16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.
39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
39:18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
39:19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
39:20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
Joel
3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
3:3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.
3:4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head;
3:5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things:
3:6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border.
3:7 Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head:
3:8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken it.
3:9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.
3:19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.
3:20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
3:21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.
Revelation
6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Daniel
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
12:5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
Revelation
12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Tell me Bro.......... what does Israel today have to do with Israel of the Bible?
If they can claim anything it is just a bunch of Edommites running around after the nature of King Herod.
Have you ever looked into what true Jews of the Torah have to say about when they are to "return to Palestine"?
According to them the worst thing that ever happened to the Jews was when the UN gave them what was Israel in 1948.
Take some time and read this ........ it is the perspective from true jews and will be for your benefit
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
Blessings
Doug
Daniel
24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Romans
11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Daniel
9:1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;
9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.
9:3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:
9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;
9:5 We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments:
9:6 Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.
9:7 O LORD, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.
9:8 O Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee.
9:9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;
9:10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.
9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.
9:12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.
9:13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.
9:14 Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.
9:15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.
9:16 O LORD, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.
9:17 Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake.
9:18 O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.
9:19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.
9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;
9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
9:22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
"Tell me Bro.......... what does Israel today have to do with Israel of the Bible?
If they can claim anything it is just a bunch of Edommites running around after the nature of King Herod.
Have you ever looked into what true Jews of the Torah have to say about when they are to "return to Palestine"?
According to them the worst thing that ever happened to the Jews was when the UN gave them what was Israel in 1948.
Take some time and read this ........ it is the perspective from true jews and will be for your benefit"
>I am aware of your position and all that you suggest that I reference .... in great detail
>Here is what I will show you for your benefit:
Mark
13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
2Peter
2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
2Timothy
3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Quote from: Stephen on May 25, 2009, 07:23:40 PM
"Tell me Bro.......... what does Israel today have to do with Israel of the Bible?
If they can claim anything it is just a bunch of Edommites running around after the nature of King Herod.
Have you ever looked into what true Jews of the Torah have to say about when they are to "return to Palestine"?
According to them the worst thing that ever happened to the Jews was when the UN gave them what was Israel in 1948.
Take some time and read this ........ it is the perspective from true jews and will be for your benefit"
>I am aware of your position and all that you suggest that I reference .... in great detail
>Here is what I will show you for your benefit:
Mark
13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
2Peter
2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
2Timothy
3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Stephen....
In that case you understand that the antichrist and false prophets were already infiltrating the church while John was still alive.................... and that by the time you came along John was already dead and that the false prophets were the ones who remained running the seminaries and in general making up the tail of the dragon that teaches lies and causes vast numbers of Christians (stars) to loose their inheritance in heaven.
Cool.......... just wanted to make sure you understood that.
Blessings
Doug
I do understand .... and "the" antichrist is still at large by the way and will manifest at the time of the end during the Lord's coming tribulation period .... the Lord will give the devil to those who refuse to believer the truth about Him
This will come about by the workings of satan "unrestrained" and this fallen angelic will come to the earth [forced actually] by way of his active agents .... his term will be short before he is cast into the abyss and imprisoned for 1,000 years
willieH: Hi Stephen... :hithere:
Some actual dialogue fromya! :Yesss: All right! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Stephen on May 26, 2009, 12:15:27 AM
I do understand .... and "the" antichrist is still at large by the way and will manifest at the time of the end during the Lord's coming tribulation period .... the Lord will give the devil to those who refuse to believer the truth about Him
This will come about by the workings of satan "unrestrained" and this fallen angelic will come to the earth [forced actually] by way of his active agents .... his term will be short before he is cast into the abyss and imprisoned for 1,000 years
(1) "satan" as a
fallen angel is short of understanding... :mnah: "satan" is the adverse nature and "imprisoned will" of MEN -- NOT a "being" which "fell from Heaven" (which men, are self-decieved into thinking that their "will" is, "free")...
(2) There is no such entity as "
THE Antichrist"... any man in opposition or devoid of
CHRIST, is "antichrist"
(3) Observation of "1000 years" mentioned in Rev 20, as a period in linear TIME, is also short of understanding... sorry! It is a SYMBOLIC representation within the Revelation [REVEALING] of
JESUS CHRIST...
not a time oriented, "calendar event".
...willieH :cloud9:
"There is no such entity as "THE Antichrist"..."
>Satan would agree with you since he wants no discovery and to stay under the cover .... but the Word of the Lord tells otherwise
>The little horn and first beast of Revelation is the entity that some call the "antichrist" who will appear at the time of the end of this present age
>These are satan's instruments used in his war "against" Jesus Christ .... the little horn and king of the northern Middle East presented in Daniel's visions incarnated by Abaddon-Apollyon, the angelic beast and king of the abyss, presented in Revelation's unfolding
Ezekiel
28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Isaiah
14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
14:18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
14:19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
Revelation
12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Revelation
9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star [satan] fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
9:7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
9:8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9:9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
2Thessalonians
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Revelation
11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
Daniel's view of the same entity
Daniel
7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
7:15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
8:15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
8:18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.
8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up [the little horn].
8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall [the little horn] come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
11:36 And the king [the little horn] shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
11:39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
11:42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
11:43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
12:5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he [the little horn] shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
Hi Stephen
Glad you are still here and have not given up on us
You knew when you came here that this place is what as labeled as a UR site. Now mind me when I say the fact that it is a UR site does not in-itself mean that the differences between some of the individuals here are any less than that of the differences of those who believe in things common such as the rapture or Jesus returning to a temple yet to be built in Jerusalem or pearly gates etc etc ......... What being a UR site entails is that those who post in good standing here share the knowledge that God who does not change is able to bring forth that what He said He would do.........simply stated that mankind will come into the image and likeness of God of whom there has only been one example and whom was given unto us as a pattern to be followed............. Jesus Christ
First I must say for the benefit of other as as well as for you and me I would like to have a dialogue between you and me in our own words as to the meanings of Scripture rather than simply quoting vast amounts of scripture.......... fair enough ?
That will allow for shorter posts and for others to understand exactly where we as individuals are coming from rather then leave quoted scripture up for grabs as to what it means or the differences that exist between how you see it versus how I or any one else here who may choose to jump in see it........ Cool ?
Blessings
Doug
Quotequoted scripture up for grabs as to what it means or the differences that exist between how you see it versus how I or any one else here who may choose to jump in see it
I agree that's important. Probably everyone here owns at least one Bible...now what we get
out of it can be
another story :dbook:
The Word of the Lord is paramount and must be studied and learned first in totality before one forms extra-biblical opinions and interpretations based upon partial and off course theological positions
This approach of short cutting has led to much deception and misleading brought on by spurious and questionable men who teach falsehood for the purpose of self gain
Many do not spend the time and seek the Lord's imparted guidance in relationship to the task and effort of studying themselves approved .... there are no short cuts to full and complete comprehensive understanding .... one must never compromise the scriptures by lack of attention and refusal to absorb and include them all when seeking knowledge and truth on various subjects
....and the Lord has not given a revelation of confusion with optional interpretations .... his would be contrary to His purpose
Is it possible to understand all that He has given in His Word correctly? .... absolutely
Stephen, I'm wondering if you personally believe you fully understand "all that He has given in His Word correctly"?
Quote: "The Word of the Lord is paramount and must be studied and learned first in totality before one forms extra-biblical opinions and interpretations based upon partial and off course theological positions"...
I don't believe the above quote is what has been suggested/requested. Rather, that this is a discussion forum where there's give and take didactic discussion, rather than a platform for a teaching monologue. I would think that would be more in line with a blog or one's own personal site.
Although we don't worship the man (Gary Amirault), this is his site and we do respect his wishes. One of his specific wishes (and rules of the forum) is that specific (especially detailed) bodies of teaching should not contradict Gary's primary beliefs. I suggest checking out some of those things on the TM main page. James.
Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 ... Lucifer? Satan?
"Many do not make the same mistakes twice; they make them five, six, or seven times seven."
peacemaker
peacemaker, would you be alluding to something along these lines? "The Isaiah passage does not connect, either historically or theologically, with the New Testament passages about the devil or the satan. By listening to the Old Testament passage on its own terms within its own context, we discover that Lucifer is not an Old Testament name for the devil or the satan. The passage in Isaiah 14:12-17 is directed at the downfall of the arrogant Babylonian rulers who took Israel into exile. By beginning with the New Testament, by making assumptions not supported by a closer examination of Scripture itself, and by using external theological categories as a lens through which to read Scripture, we may end up badly misreading Isaiah." Believe it or not, from CRI :mshock:.
Who me? :mshock:
Oh sorry, that must have been your evil twin, troublemaker :angry1:.
Hard to believe, but more from CRI; "The name Lucifer has often been understood to be another name for the devil or the satan. This identification has a long history in the church, going back to at least the fourth century.
In Revelation 12 the red dragon with seven heads appears in the sky, and his tail sweeps down a third of the stars to earth, and is then later cast down to the earth along with his angels. Of course, at this point, a great many assumptions are introduced into the reading even of the Revelation passage, even though this is obviously extremely figurative language; we just assume what it means.
...the assumption about the meaning of all these texts, and the assumption that adding texts together is the way to understand them (a drastic perversion of the "Scripture interprets Scripture" principle).... Earlier translations (KJV) mistakenly took the Hebrew term sheol in verse 15 as "hell" (in Hebrew it is simply the place where the dead go, a metaphor for death, specifically burial; see Sheol, Hell, and the Dead)...
Velly, velly intellesting. :angel4:
Stephen,
If your uncomfortable sharing what God has shown you, it's cool! You don't need to string along scripture to say what you can't.
Here, allow me to show you the danger of your ways!
Act 16:27 When the jailer awoke and saw the prison doors opened, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself... Then Jesus said... "Go and do the same." (Luke 10:37)
See the problem one can create?
Scripture, I already know! It's you that's a mystery?
Are you a Mormon? I can't tell from your string along post! :dontknow:
Peace,
Paul
Quote from: jabcat on May 26, 2009, 07:36:13 AM
Oh sorry, that must have been your evil twin, troublemaker :angry1:.
And all this time, I thought his name was war-maker. :Oops: LOL
willieH: Hi Stephen... :hithere:
Quote from: willieHThere is no such entity as "THE Antichrist"...
Quote from: Stephen on May 26, 2009, 02:53:56 AM>Satan would agree with you since he wants no discovery and to stay under the cover .... but the Word of the Lord tells otherwise:
Oh really? Hmmm... even though a MYTHICAL and imagined entity, ..."satan" is hardly what one would call, ..."undercover" :laughing7: Please! Get real!
In this day and age, I would probably say that the MYTH of "satan" as a being, is more published in the world than ANY! They make movies and tv programs CONTINUALLY about "satan"... and his "supposed" activities as the "ruler of darkness"...
:Chinscratch: --- :mnah:
(1) Neither "satan"
or "the antichrist" is named in EITHER of these passages, new brother... :dontknow: You thereby assume the characters within to be them... not so. The characters are those who are named.
Shall this become the practice of Bible study? Shall we believe that another received the Commandments from God, and not MOSES as is named in the text? Inserting names at our descretion? Upon what AUTHORITY is this done?
(2) There is no "satan" to agree or disagree with me Stephen... you have created "him" in these passages you quote which do NOT NAME "him", ...OR "the antichrist"...
On the contrary... The
King of TYRUS is the addressee of this passage in Ezekiel, Stephen...
Quote from: Stephen on May 26, 2009, 02:53:56 AMEzekiel
28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
As to the passage quoted in Isaiah...
"lucifer" is not the actual
addressee of the passage in Isaiah... it is contextually, the
King of BABYLON --
Isaiah 14:4Neither is "lucifer" -- "satan"... If he were, then how do you explain
verse 16 which notes this "entity" as a ...
MAN?
Or that lucifer (if lucifer IS "satan") is VISIBLE and
SEEN by observers as also noted in
verse 16... Has he developed a cloaking device since then? :laugh:
Or that he is cast out of his "
GRAVE"? ...in verse 19 with a
CARCASE, ..."run through" with a "SWORD"?
Since when did "satan" ever have a CARCASE or was
it ("he" -- just for you) ever in a GRAVE? :dontknow:
And even if you can find a way to explain these things... why did GOD not use the word "satan" as He did in JOB, in these passages? God has not withheld the use of this term elsewhere in the Scriptures ... why should He hold it back in such IMPORTANT texts, if indeed "satan" is the one spoken of?
No... these are the imaginations of ORTHODOXY which you have adopted bro... and hopefully in God's time, you shall UNLEARN these fallacies...
Quote from: Stephen on May 26, 2009, 02:53:56 AMIsaiah
14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
14:18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
14:19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
There are several things WRONG with the observation of FALLEN ANGELIC beings, here are just a few:
First... An ANGELIC being that FALLS, suggests that the PERFECT and HOLY place of HEAVEN, is NOT PERFECT, neither is it HOLY for in the course of ETERNITY (whatever that might be), IMPERFECTION was found... and is FOREVER BLEMISHED because of it...
Second... And an ANGEL which not only is able, to, but DOES REBEL against GOD, ...suggests that GOD is NOT completely in CONTROL of His Creative efforts... a "tinkering" engineer at best, ...which further means that...
Third... He is therefore NOT "Almighty", and is found FALLIBLE in His creation of ANGELS... (Might I say, right here and NOW, that ANGELS were never created... They have ALWAYS been, as extensions of GOD who has ALWAYS BEEN)...
Fourth... There is a problem with this "REBELLION idea" RE-OCCURING... for Men will have in eternity, the knowledge of VANITY, SIN, EVIL, DISOBEDIENCE, ...which is actualy MUCH more than the proposal that "satan" for NO REASON, without provocation, or KNOWLEDGE of EVIL, ...decided to REBEL against GOD who had "given him" the highest position, next to Himself...
Fifth... "satan" is, according to theologians (such as yourself) which promote this nonsense... found with INIQUITY within himself, and GOD had nothing to do with it, other than to CAST him out of Heaven for that iniquity, on POOR unsuspecting MAN who was an INFANT by comparison, having NO CHANCE at all against such a being as theology depicts "satan" to be...
Sixth... According to
CHRIST --
Matt 25:31 -- ALL the HOLY ANGELS (not just the "left-overs") shall accompany
CHRIST at His appearance... which means that
NONE of them are absent because of "FALLING" somewhere in Eternity...
There are many more reasons that it does NOT work and that INSIST the idea of FALLEN ANGELS to be COMPLETELY FALLACY, but that will have to do for now...
I wish you the spirit of understanding of the
WORD of
YHVH...
...willieH :cloud9:
willieH: Hi Stephen... :friendstu:
Quote from: Stephen on May 26, 2009, 05:49:12 AM
The Word of the Lord is paramount and must be studied and learned first in totality before one forms extra-biblical opinions and interpretations based upon partial and off course theological positions
I
agree and disagree with this statement Stephen...
I
agree that the
WORD of
YHVH is paramount and must be studied... however,
I
DISAGREE that it WILL, or even CAN be LEARNED in TOTALITY by ANY finite human being. Also, it is a matter of OPINION as to WHO is "off course" in their observations OF IT...
As far as "theological positions"... I do not see this required by the
WORD, only by those who claim to HAVE "theological positions" :laughing7:
Quote from: Stephen on May 26, 2009, 05:49:12 AMThis approach of short cutting has led to much deception and misleading brought on by spurious and questionable men who teach falsehood for the purpose of self gain
I am 63 Stephen, ...and I'll have you know that I have spent 33+ years studying this book... and that is by NO MEANS a "short cut"! How old are you? If you are 40, that means my study began when YOU were age SEVEN... If you are FIFTY, you were age SEVENTEEN... :dontknow:
In those 33+ years... I have only scratched the foamy SURFACE of this ETERNAL OCEAN we call the
WORD of GOD... so don't give me a "you gotta learn it ALL, before you establish a theological position" speech! It aint woikin' f'me -- :mnah:
Quote from: Stephen on May 26, 2009, 05:49:12 AMMany do not spend the time and seek the Lord's imparted guidance in relationship to the task and effort of studying themselves approved .... there are no short cuts to full and complete comprehensive understanding
No offense new brother, but you have already displayed your knowledge to be MUCH LESS than "comprehensive" and FAR SHORT of COMPLETE!! ...It would help if you stopped waving your "I'm the prototypical Bible Student" flag... and just get in a discussion or two with some of the VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE folks that hang out in these here, parts! :Book: :dbook: :drama:
Quote from: Stephen on May 26, 2009, 05:49:12 AM.... one must never compromise the scriptures by lack of attention and refusal to absorb and include them all when seeking knowledge and truth on various subjects
....and the Lord has not given a revelation of confusion with optional interpretations .... his would be contrary to His purpose
Please, brother, relax a taste, ...we all take ALL Scripture into consideration (as we are aware)... We are ALL students... and there is ALWAYS more to learn...
To say there isn't confusion, is a type of self deception bro... It is MORE than obvious, displayed by the DIVIDED denominational entity known as Christianity, that confusion IS entered into it... If it is present, then it has PURPOSE... It doesn't mean that GOD authored the confusion, rather, it is His creatures (even those who BELIEVE) which are all tied up in a knot of their own stubborness, foolishness, pride, and doing.
If there were NO CONFUSION, they would ALL be ONE church, with ONE teaching... however... more and more little buds pop up everyday, new offspring of those divided and confused churches... :sigh:
Which one do you belong to? :dunno: Or are you come out into the wilderness seeking to more clearly HEAR HIS VOICE, with most of us? :dunno2:
Quote from: Stephen on May 26, 2009, 05:49:12 AMIs it possible to understand all that He has given in His Word correctly? .... absolutely
It is ONLY POSSIBLE, if GOD were to decide to GIVE one ALL CORRECT understanding... and if you believe you have been given this gift... then GOD is thereby, being PARTIAL to
you... :mnah: ...for we are ALL seekers of Him...
He
SAYS that He is IMPARTIAL!
Acts 10:34 (and 9 other places I've found [probably more] -
2 Sam 14:14 -- Job 34:19 -- Rom 2:11 -- Mk 12:14 -- 2 Chron 19:7 -- Gal 2:6 -- Eph 6:9 -- Prov 28:21 -- Col 3:25 :happygrin:)
I say that you, though very devoted, and time invested, are quite self decieved... Even the Apostle PAUL noted: FOR NOW, ...We see through a glass DARKLY... but when LOVE (which he had just described) comes in its PERFECTION... THEN we shall see IN PERFECTION...
1 Cor 13:12Get your feet back on the ground Stephen... and get down & dirty with the rest of us, as we dig in the FIELD called the
WORD of almighty
YHVH God... :grouppray:
Peace me-bratha... :afFro:
...willieH :icon_king:
Quote from: Stephen on May 26, 2009, 05:49:12 AM
.
Is it possible to understand all that He has given in His Word correctly? .... absolutely
I agree completely Stephen...........however
.
Quote..and the Lord has not given a revelation of confusion with optional interpretations .... this would be contrary to His purpose
but here you have made a mistake.......... lets see what God has to say about your opinion.
Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose [that] in which I delighted not.
So here is the proof Stephen........ God sends the truth to one person and then goes and chooses the delusion of another...... so Stephen the question I have for you to ponder over is why did not our Lord bring this verse before you and not allow you to make such a blunder right of the bat......... do you think that pride could have anything to do with it?
Man shall not live by his word but BY EVERY WORD THAT COMES FORTH FROM GOD and that includes applying the laws of God to Words of God rightly dividing the word between the true witness and the false witness as well as providing two or more witnesses to prove any word to make it proved suitable for doctrine for the edification of His Chosen.
So thus far I have only provided one witness to the fact that God will send a delusion contrary to his Heavenly Nature when it suites Him to do so............ will you please find a second witness for us and post it in your response........ thanks in advance.
BTW Stephen this is the only God approved way and is laid out in Isa 28 as to who will gain knowledge versus who will not...... it is the same manner in which Paul and the others both wrote and taught in that was as Peter said........... "sometimes hard to be understood". However if one is to learn the Scriptures in the same manner as it was written by His Holy Prophets then it must be done God's way and not through the ways of man that may get one a doctorate in literature but not get past first base in understanding the things of God.
Blessings
Doug
The passage that you quote is directed specifically at national Israel given in the context of Isaiah's rendering
I would suggest that you might be one who has been sent delusion, as you say others must be, and you may want to check out the pride factor for yourself as well .... this attribute will get in your way
You should seriously consider your position of limitation on complete, congruent, and correct rendering of the scriptures
The scriptures are written to be studied and fully understood by those who diligently and honestly seek the Lord's involvement in the process of interpreting His Word
willieH: Hi Paul... :happygrin:
Quote from: Pierac on May 26, 2009, 07:47:36 AM
Stephen,
If your uncomfortable sharing what God has shown you, it's cool! You don't need to string along scripture to say what you can't.
Here, allow me to show you the danger of your ways!
Act 16:27 When the jailer awoke and saw the prison doors opened, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself... Then Jesus said... "Go and do the same." (Luke 10:37)
See the problem one can create?
Scripture, I already know! It's you that's a mystery?
Are you a Mormon? I can't tell from your string along post! :dontknow:
Peace,
Paul
I don't think he has much to say Paul... All he does is post Scripture, and/or a comment with it... He doesn't respond, obviously because he is insecure about the true depth of his "positions"...
It is easy to post what you believe, and ignore those who question those beliefs. Many do this because they really know deep down, that they do not have the
truth, and sidestep (by ignoring) those who question them, and are really seeking it...
If one really has TRUTH... the TRUTH bears witness of itself... and shall stand the tests of scrutiny that others might bring against it... but when one really doesn't have the TRUTH... one shall remain unresponsive, because he/she has no response which solidly refutes the questioning... (which the TRUTH does, when possessed)
I'll be surprised if he responds at all... Doesn't matter, holes in his "infallible knowledge" have already been pointed out... The readers can decide for themselves...
...willieH :cloud9:
The readers will decide for themselves
Quote from: Stephen on May 26, 2009, 07:34:48 PM
The passage that you quote is directed specifically at national Israel given in the context of Isaiah's rendering
I would suggest that you might be one who has been sent delusion, as you say others must be, and you may want to check out the pride factor for yourself as well .... this attribute will get in your way
You should seriously consider your position of limitation on complete, congruent, and correct rendering of the scriptures
The scriptures are written to be studied and fully understood by those who diligently and honestly seek the Lord's involvement in the process of interpreting His Word
This is a cop-out...
2 Tim 3:16-17 ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of GOD, and ...IS PROFITABLE... for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in Righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto good works...
This Scripture noted by Doug... is profitable not just as specifically "directed at National Israel"... but to the INDIVIDUAL that is seeking truth in all matters...
For a student which proudly claims to have ALL LEARNING and COMPREHENSIVE -- complete understanding... you don't appear to "understand" much bro... :dontknow:
Many holes have already been pointed out in that "understanding"... :yes: more to come... :dontknow:
...willieH :cloud9:
"For a student which proudly claims to have ALL LEARNING and COMPREHENSIVE -- complete understanding... you don't appear to "understand" much bro"
>People have opinions
>The readers will decide
The Day of the Lord will come suddenly and without warning to earth dwellers
1Thessalonians
5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Matthew
24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Revelation
6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
willieH: Hi Stephen... :hithere:
Quote from: Stephen on May 26, 2009, 09:20:52 PM
The readers will decide for themselves
Yes, indeed they will! :laughing7:
When
JESUS was challenged by the Pharisees, He did not ignore... He responded... and it was the Pharisees which went silent... as His response, stood upon TRUTH.
You are unable to meet challenge, which serves to display that your "understanding's", are likely built upon sand... For if they TRULY stood upon the ROCK... they would EASILY stand against scrutiny and questioning...
Thus far, ...your "understandings" have been shown inadaquate and incomplete...
As I said earlier... there are learned people here, which have dedicated themselves to MUCH research, and which do not open up their conversations by "patting themselves on the back", as you have as you marched into Tentmaker...
Yes brother Stephen... the "
readers" will decide... :wink1:
...willieH :cloud9:
willieH: Hi Stephen... :cloud9:
Quote from: Stephen on May 26, 2009, 09:28:45 PM
"For a student which proudly claims to have ALL LEARNING and COMPREHENSIVE -- complete understanding... you don't appear to "understand" much bro"
>People have opinions
>The readers will decide
More than "opinion" has been presented to you... Scripture as well as LOGIC (reasoning - which the LORD invites us to do --
Isaiah 1:18) has been presented to refute your "understandings", to which you
have FAILED and continue to FAIL to respond... :pitiful:
Your "understandings" are just that bro, ..."yours"... :laughing7: ...and the fallacies they propose, have nothing to do with the TRUTH of the
WORD...
Such as "FALLEN ANGELIC's" :sigh:
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: Stephen on May 26, 2009, 07:34:48 PM
The passage that you quote is directed specifically at national Israel given in the context of Isaiah's rendering
I would suggest that you might be one who has been sent delusion, as you say others must be, and you may want to check out the pride factor for yourself as well .... this attribute will get in your way
You should seriously consider your position of limitation on complete, congruent, and correct rendering of the scriptures
The scriptures are written to be studied and fully understood by those who diligently and honestly seek the Lord's involvement in the process of interpreting His Word
And what did Paul say......... that those things that happened unto Israel are allegories and are given to us for our edification..........
Israel is a metaphor of the church....... it is even called to be the church in the wilderness and that is why they produced good figs and bad figs.......... just like the church does where the good are called out and the bad ones remain in the wildeness where they are taught by satan
That is why that even though they did enter into the promise land Paul spoke of them as having not entered into because it is about the church
You need to get off your kick about Israel............ that temple that Jesus said that was His body that would be built again in three days is that part of the church that obeys the command of Jesus to come out of Babylon that is the church in bondage to false worship just like Israel was. Those who come will become that temple and at their manifestation they are the second coming of Christ
The male child coming out from the woman (who is in the wilderness being nourished (fed) from the face of the serpent (satan) because the clergy has become the tail of the dragon whom has been teaching the church for the last 1900 years since "he who letteth let be taken out of the way) is who comes out of the church no longer being fed by the serpent and like John is called up to heaven to sit at the feet of Jesus and learn directly from Him
Do some searching on the dragon and the tail............ and then come out of Babylon
Blessings
Doug
"Israel is a metaphor of the church"
>Not according to the Lord's own words
>Your replacement theology is not compatible with the scriptures
Isaiah
11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
11:14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
11:15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.
Jeremiah
30:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
30:2 Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.
30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
30:4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
30:5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.
30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
30:12 For thus saith the LORD, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous.
30:13 There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines.
30:14 All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased.
30:15 Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee.
30:16 Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey.
30:17 For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.
30:18 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.
30:19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
30:20 Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them.
30:21 And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD.
30:22 And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
30:23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked.
30:24 The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he hath done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.
Ezekiel
36:1 Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD:
36:2 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession:
36:3 Therefore prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people:
36:4 Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about;
36:5 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.
36:6 Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen:
36:7 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I have lifted up mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame.
36:8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.
36:9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown:
36:10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:
36:11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
36:12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.
36:13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations:
36:14 Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the Lord GOD.
36:15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord GOD.
36:16 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
36:17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
36:18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
36:20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.
36:21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
36:29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
36:30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
36:31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
36:32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
36:33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
36:34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
36:36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.
36:37 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.
36:38 As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
Micah
5:1 Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.
5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
5:3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.
5:4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.
5:5 And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.
5:6 And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.
5:7 And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.
5:8 And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.
5:9 Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off.
5:10 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots:
5:11 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strong holds:
5:12 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand; and thou shalt have no more soothsayers:
5:13 Thy graven images also will I cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee; and thou shalt no more worship the work of thine hands.
5:14 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee: so will I destroy thy cities.
5:15 And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.
Zechariah
14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
"Israel is a metaphor of the church"
>Not according to Paul's understanding
Romans
11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
How about quoting the verses that "israelites" are descended by law and we are by the seed that is Christ that was the faith that got righteousness imputed to Abraham ........ or is it convenient to ignore them?
"How about quoting the verses that "israelites" are descended by law and we are by the seed that is Christ that was the faith that got righteousness imputed to Abraham ........ or is it convenient to ignore them?"
>Gentiles are included in matters of personal salvation only without regard to ethnic lineage
>The Church is one thing ..... the nation of Israel is another
>Your replacement theology is not compatible with the scriptures
>All of the various replacement theologies ignore this biblical truth
Matthew 5:9
Quote from: Stephen on May 26, 2009, 11:02:00 PM
"How about quoting the verses that "israelites" are descended by law and we are by the seed that is Christ that was the faith that got righteousness imputed to Abraham ........ or is it convenient to ignore them?"
>Gentiles are included in matters of personal salvation only without regard to ethnic lineage
>The Church is one thing ..... the nation of Israel is another
>Your replacement theology is not compatible with the scriptures
>All of the various replacement theologies ignore this biblical truth
Replacement theology ?
LOL
Look what the Bible says about Israel when speaking of Moses who was a shadow of the Christ to come
Acts 7:38
This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:You have a strong tendency to ignore passages in the Bible................. God is not the one who is encouraging you to do so
You are scripture picking by ignoring context and I would suggest that you engage in a more comprehensive study of the Lord's Word
UR is a replacement theology and another gospel for sure that does not line up with the scriptures of the Bible by any measure
This total concept is a falsehood and an example of behavior that Jesus Christ would come by those coming in His name and deceiving many in the process
Let's not debate your religion .... this you must deal with this issue yourself
Quote from: Stephen on May 26, 2009, 11:56:39 PM
You are scripture picking by ignoring context and I would suggest that you engage in a more comprehensive study of the Lord's Word
UR is a replacement theology and another gospel for sure that does not line up with the scriptures of the Bible by any measure
This total concept is a falsehood and an example of behavior that Jesus Christ would come by those coming in His name and deceiving many in the process
Let's not debate your religion .... this you must deal with this issue yourself
Stephen...........
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
All scripture ..... believe this
Quote from: Stephen on May 26, 2009, 11:56:39 PM
You are scripture picking by ignoring context and I would suggest that you engage in a more comprehensive study of the Lord's Word
UR is a replacement theology and another gospel for sure that does not line up with the scriptures of the Bible by any measure
This total concept is a falsehood and an example of behavior that Jesus Christ would come by those coming in His name and deceiving many in the process
OK, that's your opinion. I disagree, but that's between each of us and God.
1) Did you ever answer if you believe you personally completely understand all scripture? If you did, I missed it.
2) Do you believe you could yet have some truths revealed to you? Please answer this, if I missed it earlier, just let me know. I've been kind of busy.
3) Also, so do you believe in eternal torment and the mistranslations of 'hell'? That God's punishments are something different than corrective?
Quote from: Stephen on May 27, 2009, 12:20:55 AM
All scripture ..... believe this
Amen and you are leaving far to many out that are always the ones that destroy your theories
Go read Isa 28 and in particular verse one and 11-13
Anytime you want more witnesses (verses in scripture) to what I say just say so
For now I need to scoot
Blessings
Doug
Sorry, but your comment is but a fragment and totally unrelated to the subject of this thread
You and I will never agree with subjects relating to the prophetic scriptures as I review your approach .... so let's agree to disagree and move on
I do understand UR theology, but do not agree with the concept at all in any of its many and varied forms
My views and yours are miles apart ..... oil and water
This is the truth
willieH: Hi Stephen... :happygrin:
Are you so presumptuous, that you would think yourself to be of the first to attack the TRUTH of "UR" here @ TM? Well R-ya? :dontknow:
Quote from: Stephen on May 26, 2009, 11:56:39 PM
You are scripture picking by ignoring context and I would suggest that you engage in a more comprehensive study of the Lord's Word
UR is a replacement theology and another gospel for sure that does not line up with the scriptures of the Bible by any measure
This total concept is a falsehood and an example of behavior that Jesus Christ would come by those coming in His name and deceiving many in the process
Replacement theology? Of course it is! It replaces the
LIES that those such as yourself "theologically" preach, ...and preaches the simple
TRUTH in its PLACE! :cloud9: That GOD really DOES LOVE His Creation, and that He CAN accomplish SALVATION OF IT... :boogie:
Instead of the DRUDGERY and LOST negativity that preachers of your breed bring to the world a "message" of HIS FAILURE (unable to SAVE the WORLD), and ETERNAL VENGENCE (Getting angry and staying angry at humans which cannot save themselves)... failing to grasp WHO and WHAT GRACE actually IS... Sentencing everyone but YOURSELF to a FIRE that never ends... :rolleye:
Sorrowfully within your foolishness, ...remaining UNKNOWN to the one you claim to represent... :pitiful:
It is no surprise that the BLIND cannot see... :cool:
So your observation which notes those falsely coming in His name as UR believers (by ignoring what the Scriptures plainly say), is quite understandable due to that BLINDNESS...
But just as I have already shown your observations as ILLOGICAL, NEGATIVE, and BLIND to what is actually IN the
WORD... so here, you give me one more opportunity to add to them... :thanks:
Hate to be the one to tell you this Stephen... but the believers in UR hardly compose "the
MANY"... and there are very FEW which God calls from the ranks of the "
MANY" which come to KNOW this TRUTH... and that FEW number of UR believers, is hardly changing the minds of the
MANY which compose the Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, and JW "versions" and are those which "come in His name"...
As noted by
CHRIST, ...the equation is
MANY decieving
MANY, Stephen... Not, ...
FEW decieving
MANY... :pointlaugh:
UR =
FEW --
Luke 18:8 (literally microscopic portion of Christianity)
Orthodox Christianity =
MANY (2.5 BILLION type MANY!) --
Matt 7:22-23Matt 24:7 -- for ...
MANY... [not few - a MAJOR quantity] shall come in My Name [bearing the name
CHRIST - such as is done in Catholic and the innumerable Protestant churches]... and shall DECIEVE, ...
MANY... [again the number which believe UR, do not equate to
MANY, by any means of observation, especially when compared to the balance of CHRISTIANITY]
QuoteLet's not debate your religion .... this you must deal with this issue yourself
UR is not a religion... it is a Biblical TRUTH...
2 Cor 5:18-19 "...reconciling the WORLD unto Himself..." (which just so happens to be the target of the mission! ...quite coincidental, dontcha think?)
Actually, you are not as "comprehensively" learned as you "see yourself"... It is interesting that God put a face on every human being, and each of us spends MOST of our life, observing that faces of OTHERS, while hardly ever SEEING our own...
There is evidence
Early church supported the Salvation of ALL men... and has been taught since the inception of the Church...
It is PLAINLY in the Scriptures, and that which Scripture notes as "
another Gospel" is the one you and your PIOUS, condescending self brings to us to consider, NOT KNOWING that most of us here at Tentmaker, have ALREADY walked around that sorrowful, blind, illogical, untruthful and blasphemous "block"... which you NOW trudge... :duck:
We have LEFT the BABYLON you preach --
Rev 18:4 -- and you are welcome to remain within it, and recieve this speech:
Matt 7:25 ...and then will I profess unto them... I NEVER knew YOU... depart from Me, ye that WORK INIQUITY...
About the teaching of "UR" ---
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
(Copied from Wikipedia):
Ancient ChurchSee also: Early Christianity
In the first five or six centuries of Christian history,
the majority of theological schools in the East taught Universalism.[9] The most important such school was the Didascalium in Alexandria, Egypt, which was founded by Saint Pantaenus ca. 190 C.E.[10] Alexandria was the center of learning and intellectual discourse in the ancient Mediterranean world, and was the theological center of gravity of Christianity prior to the rise of the imperial Roman Church.[11] Alexandrian Christianity emphasized apocatastasis and theosis as its main teachings.
Saint Clement of Alexandria succeeded Pantaenus as the second head of the Didascalium in the late 2nd century. He was a prolific writer who combined Bible scholarship with Greek philosophy to present a systematic theology
based on Christian Universalist beliefs.[12]
Origen was the student and successor of Clement of Alexandria. This 3rd century theologian is generally regarded as the most significant of all the ancient teachers of Christian Universalism. He wrote over 6,000 works including commentaries on almost every book of the Bible, sermons, treatises, letters, apologies, and the Hexapla, a scholarly translation of the Old Testament.[13]
Saint Gregory of Nyssa and Saint Macrina the Younger, who were brother and sister,
were both prominent Christian Universalists of the 4th century in the Alexandrian tradition of Clement and Origen.[14][15] Gregory of Nyssa was a bishop and theologian. Macrina the Younger was the leader of a convent of nuns.
Another branch of Christian Universalism in the ancient church, separate from the Alexandria school, was the Nestorian movement which later became the Assyrian Church of the East. Nestorianism originated in the 5th century in Constantinople and Antioch. Theodore of Mopsuestia was an influential bishop who introduced universal reconciliation into the liturgy of the Nestorians, and who is still honored in the Nestorian tradition as the "Interpreter" of the faith.[16]
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
So Stephen... do you think you have made any "headway" here at Tentmaker? :laugh:
You are sorrowfully full of yourself, ...deeply studied, just like your RELGIOUS ancestors, the PHARISEES which stepped into this life before you, and just like them, you have been BLINDED by your own arrogance, and are left without even the slightest Spiritual vision... empty of the
GOSPEL, full of yourself... :sigh:
All this, despite the massive amount of time you have spent, which is employed by you to glorify yourself and your "comprehensive" and "complete" knowledge... :rolleye:
It's all so sad... :crywipe:
Hope you one day, do find the pathway that leads to enlightenment... but first you must shed the burdensome and heavy YOKE, known as
YOU... Then, emptied of yourself, you will be a vessel into which GOD can pour Himself and the GLORY of His TRUTH... :yes:
peace... :Peace:
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: willieH on May 27, 2009, 02:29:56 AM
willieH: Hi Stephen... :happygrin:
Are you so presumptuous, that you would think yourself to be of the first to attack the TRUTH of "UR" here @ TM? Well R-ya? :dontknow:
Hey Stephen, I'm a little surprised that you have put out so much information in such little time. I sense you have been spending much time strengthening your brain . . .mental weight lifting . . .as there is an impressiveness, a heaviness to your knowledge. Had I have checked out your previous posts, I may never have tried to respond to you on the other thread as I did.
The funny thing with the book of revelation and the traditional understanding of it . . .when you think of the nature of Jesus, what he brought, how he transformed lives, literally turned the tables upside down in the temple . .the Pharisees . .those who were considered to be the most knowledgeable men when it came to culture and Scripture . . .they couldn't touch him, as much as they wished they could, all they could do was nash their teeth. Because what he said was spirit . . and where they lived was flesh . . .oil and water? without a doubt.
Many on this forum see the church has gone the way of the Pharisee . . including me . . the church has convinced us that it's only through great knowledge of the Word that truth can manifest . . .but I beg to differ. It's not about knowledge at all . . .if it were, Jesus would have made sure the disciples understood what he was saying . .but it was clear that one, they didn't understand, and two, he knew they didn't understand . . .oh sure, he did explain things explicitly to them from time to time . .but they still didn't understand. The reason was because the spirit in him was not yet given to them . . .the spirit is the one who reveals . .not our ability to study.
So, here we sit . . .a cavern between us . .both sides are professing Christ even though we come from two completely different perspectives . . .one side firmly believes in eternal torment . .the other . . not so much. But if you take this book of Revelation and compare it with the nature of Jesus . . . there was no fear, no terror, no destruction, no wrath being poured out on men by him . . .if the nature of Jesus was to bring joy . . .then what on earth happened with the church's understanding with the actual book of Revelation?
Is it not a revelation of Jesus Christ? If it is, then how can the church's image of Jesus be in such a direct contrast to their understanding of the revelation of Jesus? Should they not be one and the same? Should not the book of revelation be one of joy? One of hope? One of celebration? Because that's just how the first century church viewed it . ..they actually used it's contents as the source for their hymnals . . .but yet, our generation doesn't deny there are parts here and there that are celebrative . .but the over all message is one of doom and gloom . . .
And I do agree with your first post . . . once the conversation gets combatant, there's no point in trying to go any further . .but the thing I sense is that your intent is not to come to engage and have communion, your intent is to come and give your 30-year conclusions without being open to realize that none of us know all of it . . .that there are dimensions of God that no man can comprehend.
I am a believer of UR . .but that's just one facet of the nature of God . . .eternal torment of those he created and call his own just doesn't fit with the God I've come to know and love with all my heart. Belief is a choice . . .you can choose the church's version of hell, or choose to believe that God's grace is actually greater than the mind of men whom he created.
Just my thoughts is all . . .no intent for sparring . . . Willie has a great heart. I hope you read through his stuff and see the truths he shares . . . my problem is not the beliefs of other people, my problem is my perspective of other people's beliefs . . .it's not about them, it's about where my position is in relation to them . . .is the sun in front of me? Or is it behind me . .cuz when you look at a tree with the sun to your back, all you'll see is leaves and shadows . .but when you look at the same tree with the sun in your face, light always finds a way through the tree no matter what time of day it is.
The shadows in the tree are not the trees problem, they are mine. I'm the one out of alignment with the sun . . not the tree.
"Hope you one day, do find the pathway that leads to enlightenment... but first you must shed the burdensome and heavy YOKE, known as YOU... Then, emptied of yourself, you will be a vessel into which GOD can pour Himself and the GLORY of His TRUTH"
>Sorry, but your UR theology is hobgoblin ..... is not christianity at all ..... and your words are all moot in my opinion .... neither do I accept your condescending and rash dialogue
>Your core position is that all humans are saved regardless of what they believe .... this is not biblical truth at all and only the devil himself would contrive such a sham
>Your entire system of UR theology is contrary to the basic bottom line tenants of biblical truth .... and much more deception abiding
>So there is no congruency with our views and no need for discussion
>My objective is to present views of biblical truth as I see them ..... and you must do the same
>Let's not waste time bantering over the differences ..... and exercise in futility for both
Nathan,
"Willie has a great heart"
>I will tell you that WH does not fool me at all .... his behavior and decorum reveal much .... and this also speaks of his following
>My recommendation to UR proponents .... follow the "Son" and His truth will set you free
>I am a very straight forward and candid personality and I do not mince around with spiritual folly and magic carpet riding theologies
>The scriptures are very clear to me on this issue and only a fool would discount the negative side of the unbeliever's fate
.... and I do not believe in an eternal tormenting of those who refuse the Lord by the way as you implicate .... the scriptures do not teach this at all
>However, the unbeliever's fate will be one of extinction with no continued existence ..... no recourse
>The Lord intends to separate .... and He will, make no mistake about this
>I could post a multitude of scriptures on this biblical fact .... but you have a Bible I presume
Quote from: Stephen on May 27, 2009, 03:21:44 AM
"Hope you one day, do find the pathway that leads to enlightenment... but first you must shed the burdensome and heavy YOKE, known as YOU... Then, emptied of yourself, you will be a vessel into which GOD can pour Himself and the GLORY of His TRUTH"
>Sorry, but your UR theology is hobgoblin ..... is not christianity at all ..... and your words are all moot in my opinion .... neither do I accept your condescending and rash dialogue
>Your core position is that all humans are saved regardless of what they believe .... this is not biblical truth at all and only the devil himself would contrive such a sham
>Your entire system of UR theology is contrary to the basic bottom line tenants of biblical truth .... and much more deception abiding
>So there is no congruency with our views and no need for discussion
>My objective is to present views of biblical truth as I see them ..... and you must do the same
>Let's not waste time bantering over the differences ..... and exercise in futility for both
Hi Stephen :icon_flower:
You may consider many folk at Tent have come from a fundamental,Literal understanding of the scriptures , some have in part even tried to explain The difference .
Of course each to their own , but you may find such oil and water dont mix , and youll be at logger heads with those who opt to oppose your theology , what Im trying to say Nicely , ya very much waisting your efforts .
Ya can holla from the roof tops and people wont hear ya....But as long as you and others abide by the guidelines, your welcome to share your veiws and the reason to them, so if you havent browsed them already, may I suggest you do , as it sure will save problems a little later on ,Cos without doubt , this thread seems to be going the way of many before...
Just a few words to consider Stephen, Nothing agin ya Bro ...as we are where we are , For now at least. :icon_flower:
Blessings To ya :icon_flower:
Taffy
"youll be at logger heads with those who opt to oppose your theology , what Im trying to say Nicely , ya very much waisting your efforts ."
Taffy,
>Thanks for the reply .... and I am aware of what you tell
>But it is never a waste effort to present the truth of the Lord's Word in any setting no matter the conditions
>I do not come to convince and have no need to do so .... but to post truth for the on lookers of a public forum
>Readers will decide for themselves
>You will discover that I refrain from dialogue with opposers in most situations [especially those who conduct themselves by rude and disrespectful attitudes] .... unless reasonable questions are asked
Quote>Thanks for the reply .... and I am aware of what you tell
Thats fine Stephen :icon_flower:
TY for the reply :icon_flower:
Taffy
Non-existent Gap in Daniel's 70 Weeks
Very simply, the beginning of the seventy (70) weeks of years, or 490 years, was, "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem..." (Dn 9:25) After the 69th week, or 483rd year, Jesus came out of the waters of John's baptism and was revealed to Israel. In the midst of this last week of years, He was cut off. The other half of the week is the emergence of the Eclessia, which is His body. At the completion of the seven (7) years is the stoning of Steven. There is no gap between the sixty-ninth (69th) and seventieth (70th) weeks of Daniel's prophecy. The Kingdom was set up "in the days of those kings" (Dn 2:44), the Ceasars, without any Biblical or historical reason for postponment.
EXCURSUS:"The Kingdom of God 'Now Is and Is Yet To Come' "
To maintain some theories of interpretation it is important to deny the Kingdom of God came forth with the revealing of Christ the many membered man. (cp., 1 Co 12:12) But hear what the Scripture says. In Mt 19:16-30 having "eonian life," (vs.16) and, "entering into life" (vs.17) is "keeping God's precepts;" (vs.17) which, according to what Jesus cited (vss.17-19), means the Ten Commandments. This precedes what Jesus called, "To be perfect," (vs.21) toward which He says to "sell your possessions and give to the poor," (vs.21) and then to "follow Me." (vs.21) Jesus says this is a difficult for the rich and defined all of it as to "be entering into the kingdom of the heavens," (vs.23) focusing on the realm; and, back to back, as meaning the same thing, to "be entering into the kingdom of God," (vs.24) emphasizing the Ruler of that realm. The disciples spoke of all this as being, "Saved!" (vs.25) Then Jesus proceeds to farther unfold the future of this kingdom expressed as judging from thrones of glory with Him in a time called "the renascence" (vs.28) in CLV, "the regeneration" in AV, Hendriksen says, "the restored universe." It may be the "glorified universe," where outwardly " the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea" (Hab 2:14) and inwardly all is full of the glory of God in manifestation (Ep 4:10).
It seems there is a past, present and future to "the kingdom" indicated in this passage. (Mt 19:16-30) I like what Jesus said, "With men this is impossible, yet with God all is possible." (vs.26) This very much defines the nature of the kingdom's occurence being of grace, God voluntarily acting on our behalf. It is all about being, "With God!" Notice He also explains how this is being worked out now, that we leave people and things for His sake and the gospel and we get "a hundred-fold" back, as well as "enjoying the allotment of life eonian," (vs.29) which is explained as knowing God and Jesus Christ Whom He commissions, (cp., Jo 17:3) It also seems clear to me from this passage that it would be erroneous to say the kingdom is only outward and future.
Here's an example of another spelling out of the number seventy (70) in the words of Scripture, and it is years also. It explains part of why the deportation to Babyon. They had not kept the sabbath years, leaving the land idle every seventh (7th) year and the fiftieth (50th) year. "To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years." (2 Ch 36:21, AV) There is no reason to insert a two thousand year parenthesis or gap after sixty years so that the last ten years in the sentence occurs two thousand years later. This warrantless procedure makes void the word of God by making seventy (70) years into 2,070 years.
We are told that the prophecy of the seventy (70) weeks was given to Daniel when he was in prayer and contemplating the approaching fulfillment of this prophecy of Jeremiah's: "For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place." (Jr 29:10, AV) It was no doubt also of some concern to him that God had said: "And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations." (Jr 25:12, AV) There is no hint here of some parenthesis of millennia's of time inflating this seventy (70) years to a time when there is only a mystical but no physical Babylon to destroy. God said that the destruction of Babylon, which was after Israel's return to the land, would be complete. It would never be rebuilt and fishermen would dry their nets there. There is no mention of a great tribulation in connection with any week or seven years in Dn 9:24-27. "Seven years great tribulation remains a phrase absolutely non-existent in the Bible.
There is no reason to insert any interval between the feet and ten toes (vs 41) of the statue with the head of gold (cp., Dn 2:31-45.) "The feet and toes" (vs.41) is called "the fourth kingdom" (vs.40) and it is referred to in the singular in vs.40, 41, 42, 43. (Many have heard some form of objection to inserting that gap between feet and toes. It is important to regard such things. What have you to answer in defense? I know it didn't arise spontaneously without any prior knowledge from your personal study of the text since it is not in the text. From what I understand, it originated in prophecy conferences in the later 1800's and early 1900's.) "A stone cut out without hands:" (vs.34) Christ the head and body, "smote the image upon its feet," (vs.34) the feet being the fourth, the Roman Empire. The details of why there was a continuance of the four realms until the whole was in men's awareness in the days Jesus and His Eclessia destroyed the image is very revealing. A spirit of that image through secular education works yet today.
Something else, something of the manifestation of the sons of God is going to define man in the future. The image revealed the meaning of life, which is, there is no meaning to life! Carnal man has been tried and found wanting. This is what in forgetting made the king so enraged he would kill all whose work in the world was wisdom. This included, "the magicians, and the astrologers, and the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans," (Dn 2:2) and "the soothsayers" (vs.27) who all belonged to Daniel, now their Lord, because he saved their lives. The death of Jesus ended the world of Adam and all God blessed there. The image was, "Broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. " (vs.35)
The image of the world in Daniel foretold four world Empires that are past. The stone has become a great mountain and is in the process of filling "all the earth." We continue to rise from a period of depression, returning from a several hundred years setback that has to do with the purifying of God's kingdom that shall not be given to another people. The agent of the Kingdom, the Church, is entering into amazing changes, inheriting spiritual power and Divine authority. Three of the beasts are past, Great Britain, the Soviet Union (on one side, leftist,) and the leopard, or "panzer" of Germany. We are now dealing with the fourth (4th) beast Daniel foresaw, the United Nations.
willieH: Hi Stephen... :cloud9:
Quote from: willieH"Hope you one day, do find the pathway that leads to enlightenment... but first you must shed the burdensome and heavy YOKE, known as YOU... Then, emptied of yourself, you will be a vessel into which GOD can pour Himself and the GLORY of His TRUTH"
Quote from: Stephen on May 27, 2009, 03:21:44 AM>Sorry, but your UR theology is hobgoblin ..... is not christianity at all ..... and your words are all moot in my opinion .... neither do I accept your condescending and rash dialogue
:Yeahright: You know Stephen... after reading my brother Nathan's words to you, I can see I was a bit harsh... Maybe it is because I am sick up to my neck of those, such as yourself, who bring DARKNESS in the name of light... So, though I meant what I said to you, and provided much to refute your observations... I can agree it was a bit crass in the delivery... :mblush:
Quote from: Stephen on May 27, 2009, 03:21:44 AMYour core position is that all humans are saved regardless of what they believe .... this is not biblical truth at all and only the devil himself would contrive such a sham
Oh really? :Chinscratch:
If
John 1:29 is TRUTH, then what is there to be HELD against anyone? If
JESUS took AWAY, the SIN of the WORLD... how is it still here for you & the "devil" to utilize? :dontknow:
Or if
1 John 2:2 is the TRUTH, then the SIN of the
WORLD is doggone "propitiated, is it not? :dontknow:
Or if
2 Cor 5:19 is the TRUTH, then - the
WORLD ...is... reconciled, and SIN is
NOT IMPUTED -- But your "gospel" (if you can call it that) is the WORLD unreconciled, SIN imputed,
CHRIST a failure, and GOD's plan to SAVE the WORLD quite IMPERFECT, and TORTURE in store for most of Humanity... What :wacko2: NEWS!
Or if GOD so
LOVED the
WORLD --
John 3:16 -- and He is an UNCHANGING entity --
Mal 3:6 -- then He is STUCK with us FOREVER in His Heart, dontcha think? :dontknow:
You don't even KNOW the "core" position of the SALVATION of ALL! ...Universalism does
not teach that it doesn't "matter" what one believes! On the frickin' contrary!
Belief is AUTHORED by
CHRIST --
Heb 12:2 -- upon the DRAGGING of ONE to Him by GOD HIMSELF --
John 6:44 -- and in this moment, does the Holy Spirit entrust in the heart -- then the LIPS, the NAME of
JESUS --
1 Cor 12:3 -- ALL this IN ITSELF makes the
FAITH ...
MATTER!
THIS all MATTERS! I think you may well have confused UNITARIAN UNIVERSALISM, with CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM... they are as far apart as East is from West, or ORTHODOXY to TRUTH... :laughing7:
Stephen, ...
You just WON'T get it... and that is a much worse position than someone who
just "DON'T" get it...
Nathan hit it right on the head with you... you are a "by the book" and "to the letter of the Law" kinda guy... failing to see that
CHRIST knew we were ALL, nothing but dumb SHEEP... Which btw... is why He is called our, ahem...
SHEPHERD...
Ever had any experience with SHEEP Stephen? They are about as DUMB an animal as there is... :laughing7:
Quote from: Stephen on May 27, 2009, 03:21:44 AMYour entire system of UR theology is contrary to the basic bottom line tenants of biblical truth .... and much more deception abiding
Now you're making me giggle... :laughhand: ...The Salvation of ALL is the
HEART of the HOLY BIBLE... and yet with all that great "forest" staring you right in the face, ...you can't even see a "tree"... :sigh:
Quote from: Stephen on May 27, 2009, 03:21:44 AMSo there is no congruency with our views and no need for discussion
Hey... I finally have something I can agree with, but wherein was any discussion ever had? You are unable to discuss, because, though your dialogue and 25cent words are plenteous... TRUTH is absent in your deliverance of those uncommunicative words...
like:
congruenceOne entry found.
Main Entry: con·gru·ence
Pronunciation: \kən-ˈgrü-ən(t)s, ˈkäŋ-grü-ən(t)s\
Function: noun
Date: 15th century
1 : the quality or state of agreeing, coinciding, or being congruent
2 : a statement that two numbers or geometric figures are congruent I'm pretty sure YOU are impressed by yourself in the use of this dumb word... I'm not! :thumbdown:
Communication is established by commonality, not by pseudo-intellectualism which aims its arrows at lesser educated others, in an endeavor to belittle... reminds me of JAZZ musicians...
I'm a pro musician, working in both the recording and performing industries... and ain't never had no learnin' ceptin' by muh'self & ...oh yeah, ..muh'guitar...
Pretty much JAZZ, the most INTELLECTUAL of musical forms, doesn't have DIDDLY SQUAT for an audience, because literally NO ONE cares... However, those cowboys like Willie Nelson, are laughing all the way to the bank, because... even though they are musical dummies in the eyes of JAZZ musicians... they KNOW how to COMMUNICATE... and make a living playing music, while the JAZZ players starve...
And JAZZ musicians, while they sit and mock musicians like me, are spending THEIR MONEY, buying food & drinks in the establishment that's PAYING me to play... :laugh: It's all quite humorous and ironic!
Your empty utilization of the word "CONGRUENCY" is a great example of a useless lingual attempt to exalt yourself... just makes me wanna fart... :heat:
Quote from: Stephen on May 27, 2009, 03:21:44 AMMy objective is to present views of biblical truth as I see them ..... and you must do the same
I took out my shovel 33 years ago bro... and will be digging in the field of the
WORD until I return to dust... God is ETERNAL and no FINITE SHEEP such as myself, or even YOU, shall touch even ALL the SURFACE level of that
WORD, let alone mine the gems and jewels which richly lie below...
I cannot muster enough arrogance to say that I know ALL the TRUTH... I see bits and pieces of it... and am and have been, blessed thoroughly by them...
I share with others, my discoveries... as do they with me... but YOU, dear brother come in here, breathing all the BAD BREATH of BABYLON we all purposely left behind... :rolleye:
As long as you are here... You shall not enjoy my presence, for I am firmly dedicated to TRUTH, not to being RIGHT... You come into TM insisting we are in need of your DOOM & GLOOM... as if it is a foregone conclusion that your SLUDGE is welcome...
We have been having the most delightful LIGHT party before you arrived... basking in the LIGHT of our Father's LOVE... you should try it sometime, ...take off your "intellectual chains" for a moment, and learn what it means for the Savior to MAKE you FREE... especially of DOOM and GLOOM... and of the STENCH of LIES...
Quote from: Stephen on May 27, 2009, 03:21:44 AMLet's not waste time bantering over the differences ..... and exercise in futility for both
If you wish this to stop... YOU FIRST, since it was your suggestion :laughing7:
peace, :friendstu:
...willieH :cloud9:
WH,
If I wish the dialogue between you and I to stop ..... all I have to do is stop it by not responding to you
If you have a reasonable question and agree to drop your unacceptable demeanor I may answer
willieH: Hi Stephen... :hithere:
Quote from: Stephen on May 27, 2009, 02:44:35 PM
WH,
If I wish the dialogue between you and I to stop ..... all I have to do is stop it by not responding to you
If you have a reasonable question and agree to drop your unacceptable demeanor I may answer
:laughhand: ... you and I will
do, as
YHVH, before you and I ever
were, ordained that you and I
do... nothing more, nothing less... so in the course of our interaction because of this, I am able to accept and delight in whatever result occurs within that interaction... :dontknow:
Ain't gonna be "dismissed" by you brother S... Join the discussion or find your words EXPOSED for the deceptions that they are... your choice.
Though you attempt to set parameters enabling you to avoid discussion of topics you note, ...the truth is that you won't respond to such reactive comments as I made about the DECEPTION presented by you, of "FALLEN ANGELICS"... because deep down inside you know, there IS NO RESPONSE... :laughing7:
Should you post more such DECEPTION... and ...I see it... It will be EXPOSED, and it matters not that you choose not to RESPOND... which only serves to indicate your lack of
ABILITY (not willingness) to RESPOND...
peace... :Peace:
...willieH :icon_king:
willieH: Hi Stephan... :happygrin:
Me again! :mpardon:
Quote from: Stephen on May 27, 2009, 03:38:19 AM
Nathan,
"Willie has a great heart"
>I will tell you that WH does not fool me at all .... his behavior and decorum reveal much .... and this also speaks of his following
It is your lack that dictates your view of my "behavior"... for it challenges the DISTORTIONS you are presenting here... and you therefore deduce my "behavior" in those challenges as unacceptable... It is DUE to my "following" that I shall remain faithful in challenging you... :OhNo:
Quote from: Stephen on May 27, 2009, 03:38:19 AMMy recommendation to UR proponents .... follow the "Son" and His truth will set you free
Try reading Scripture before making your recommendations... instead of repeating fallacy which you have been taught and NOT researched or verified....
John 8:32 --
John 8:36 --- MADE FREE, not "set free"...
More "parroting" of mistaken and fallible ORTHODOX teaching... FREEDOM in GOD, is not being SET free it is being CREATED FREE by the TRANS...FORMING... of our BEING.
The TRUTH ...
MAKES... one FREE, not "sets" one FREE... Creation of FREEDOM is a result of the imprint of the
WORD in the Heart...
When one is
IN CHRIST, he is a new ...
CREATURE... created NEW... not "set new"... a "CREATURE" is something which is MADE... the
MAKING takes place in the HAND of the
POTTER --
Jer 17:9 -- Rom 9:20 -- first MARRED, then ...
MADE... again --
NEW ...IN... the Hand of the
MAKER...
Quote from: Stephen on May 27, 2009, 03:38:19 AMI am a very straight forward and candid personality and I do not mince around with spiritual folly and magic carpet riding theologies
Lighten us Sultan Stephen... :pointlaugh: You deduce, using YOUR opinion, not the
WORD... You are and WILL be QUESTIONED as long as you are at Tentmaker...
As far as being "straight forward", ...your teaching is bass ackwards... and as far as a personality... so far, there really isn't much there other than appears in a computer program.
Quote from: Stephen on May 27, 2009, 03:38:19 AMThe scriptures are very clear to me on this issue and only a fool would discount the negative side of the unbeliever's fate
Backatcha bro... That you are unable to SEE (what with that "beam" in your eye) the
GOSPEL (which means
NEWS which is exclusively
GOOD -- Euaggelizo #G2097 -- Euaggelion #G2098)...
Pull out your lexicon (that is IF you have one) and look up these words which mean
GOSPEL, Stephen... I even made it easy forya, giving their (strong's ex con.) locations... and then report all the NEGATIVITY you find in them... I will be looking forward to your "report"... :laughing7:
You are further impaired by (and IN your own words), the confessed NEGATIVE VISION you have of the GOOD NEWS message called the
"GOSPEL"...
Where is the COMMAND found to teach what you teach? Well, you won't respond, so I shall note it --- THERE IS
NONE.
There is only GOOD NEWS COMMANDED to be brought --
Mark 16:15The Command of
CHRIST --
Matt 28:19-20 to His Apostles teaches of NO command to teach of HELL or TORMENT or ANNHILATION...
CHRIST noted to
FORGIVE enemies, not condemn them to a never ending barbeque or one time ROAST... :mshock:
On the contrary... this FEAR teaching is CONTRADICTORY to and devoid of that which
LOVE is composed --
1 John 4:18 LOVE ...casts
OUT FEAR... it does not PREACH it... as do you.
John's writings are devoid of it... Paul's writings are devoid of it, there is no mention or TEACHING of this in the book of ACTS... neither is there a teaching of TORMENT or ANNHILATION, made by any of the Apostles...
Quote from: Stephen on May 27, 2009, 03:38:19 AM.... and I do not believe in an eternal tormenting of those who refuse the Lord by the way as you implicate .... the scriptures do not teach this at all
There are THREE alternative scenarios believed...
(1) ALL SAVED (2) HELL (3) AnnhilationSince we KNOW you don't believe in
#1... and you just confessed you do not believe in
#2... This only leaves you with
#3 -- ANNHILATION as your choice... which probably makes you an SDA [7th Day Adventist] -- (btw, I spent 5 of my 33 Christian years within this denomination)...
There are several things which Scripturally challenge a belief in such a scenario, and this belief makes void so many verses of Scripture it would take days to list them, so in the interest of brevity and more than sufficient (in the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses is the TRUTH established) to make my point, ...a
few are:
(1) --
Rev 21:4 -- This verse states CLEARLY that DEATH shall be NO MORE... which cannot be so if ANNHILATION is true, for DEATH is a STATE... and those who are ANNHILATED are found WITHIN this state... rendering this verse UNTRUE. The terms HADES and SHEOL specifically within their definitions mean WORLD of the DEAD... If any remain or are re-inserted into this domain, then DEATH has not been eliminated for there are souls within it.
(2) --
Ex 20:13 -- This verse notes that "KILLING" (taking LIFE) is NOT an ACCEPTABLE act... and if GOD were to permanently TAKE the LIVES of men as depicted in the observation of ANNHILATION, then He is seen HYPOCRITICAL to His
WORD, as according to YOU, He shall
MURDER those who do not "believe"... which
WORD specifically notes that KILLING is UNACCEPTABLE...
(3) --
John 1:29 -- This verse says that the Lamb of God TAKETH AWAY the Sin of the
WORLD (no mention of "believers" is made in it)... This verse is shown to be inaccurate if ANNHILATION is truth. If SIN has been taken AWAY by the Lamb... for what REASON are the ANNHILATED permanently killed? There is no REASON... for SIN is that which brings forth DEATH --
James 1:15 -- if NO SIN is present, then DEATH cannot be present.
(4) --
Luke 6:27-36 -- God herein instructs that we
LOVE our enemies... and thereby are we seen MERCIFUL as He is MERCIFUL... The word LOVE (for enemies) in this passage is the very same word GOD noted in
John 3:16 --
Agapao -- #G25 which PROMPTED Him to SAVE the WORLD! ...When we LOVE, ...we become LIKE Him in such...
If ANNHILATION is true, no such MERCY
or LOVE, is seen coming from GOD, the OPPOSITE is true, ...making Him again... a HYPOCRITE... DOING contrary to the INSTRUCTION given in His
WORD...
(5) --
1 Cor 15:22 -- If ALL die in ADAM, and ALL are vivified (become alive) in
CHRIST... wherein is ANNHILATION found? Notice that ALL men in this passage have to "do" with the 1st man Adam, as well as the 2nd man
CHRIST... If we
ALL find
DEATH in the 1st man, ...by the demand of the context, we
ALL find
LIFE in the 2nd man...
Quote from: Stephen on May 27, 2009, 03:38:19 AMHowever, the unbeliever's fate will be one of extinction with no continued existence ..... no recourse
I guess the only question left, is... When are you gonna start recommending ELLEN G. WHITE? :laughing7:
Quote from: Stephen on May 27, 2009, 03:38:19 AMThe Lord intends to separate .... and He will, make no mistake about this
Oh there IS a mistake here... and it is blatantly being made by YOU, which brings
OTHER than "GOOD NEWS"... which IS the
GOSPEL of PEACE --
Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15 -- Rather, your agenda (which, as with "Hell/ET" teachers) conveniently disincludes YOU from the negativity contained in your message... and brings
BAD NEWS to the
WORLD which GOD SO
LOVED... DOES
LOVE, and ALWAYS WILL
LOVE... for He CHANGES NOT --
Mal 3:6 -- Heb 13:8How contrary is this FALSE message you bring... SEPARATION is NOT the will of GOD... the stated WILL of GOD is that NONE PERISH --
2 Pet 3:9 -- bringing Harmony and ONENESS is that which GOD's agenda is about, ...not DESTRUCTION, DEATH, and SEPARATION... :thumbdown:
Quote from: Stephen on May 27, 2009, 03:38:19 AMI could post a multitude of scriptures on this biblical fact .... but you have a Bible I presume
Oh yeah... for once, :omg: you
PRESUME correctly! I have a well worn one... And it is my most PRIZED POSSESSION... and I would recommend you get one... :laughhand:
Go ahead, list your folly Stephen... I am more than ready to refute your LIES... for I am DAILY in His hand... and at His service... Laying myself before Him in humility, for I, of myself am NOTHING... but I am confident in Him and the refutation He shall provide to EXPOSE you...
Bring it on bro... that is, ...if you
can... :dontknow:
Let us see if you can even bring ONE (humble) verse (which makes any SENSE at all), ...let alone a (prideful) "multitude"... :laughing7:
...willieH :cloud9:
WH,
Your are a funny guy
... and I have no affiliation with the SDA and teach against this cult consistantly there is no contest against this organization .... piece of cake to take it appart
It is the scriptures that teach the destruction of the angelic and human spirit in the Lord's lake of fire hands down .... the SDA got luckey on this one, but most all of their other ranting is hobgoblin
Bring your questions on and if reasonable, and if you watch you behavior .... I will answer
The Day of the Lord will come suddenly and without signs or warnings
.....make sure you are ready and do not get caught off guard
You may die before, but must be ready either way
willieH: Hi Stephen... :hithere:
Quote from: Stephen on May 28, 2009, 12:00:17 AM
Bring your questions on and if reasonable, and if you watch you behavior .... I will answer
My behavior is fine... and I have already posted enough refutation of your words...
I have plainly questioned each FALSE position that you have presented -- that I have addressed, and TO DATE, ...you have no answers for the questions...
And FYI, ...I could care less if you ever answer me or not... If you don't, then my words EXPOSING your FALLACIES, are found unchallenged... and just displays you have no answer for them, which is fine with me... :dontknow:
QuoteThe Day of the Lord will come suddenly and without signs or warnings
I don't disagree with this at all... but your observations do not allow for an "ANY MOMENT" coming... with you misunderstandings posing "this has to happen then that"... :rolleye:
Quote.....make sure you are ready and do not get caught off guard
As I said, I've been in the Lord for 33+ years... looking for Him continually to end this realm. I am not "on guard" worrying as are you, hoping you are "ready"... I am EXPECTANT to enter into His JOY! :bgdance: I refuse to be afraid of the ONE who LOVES ME MOST! You are welcome to take my portion of fear, and tremble all the more if that is what you like... trying to be "ready"...
QuoteYou may die before, but must be ready either way
I just faced death in surgery Last September -- when was the last time YOU faced death dude? :dontknow: And even now, I am fighting CANCER... which I hold no fear for either... I am PEACEFULLY, ...in HIS HAND... daily about doing His Work, ...and content that what shall be, shall be...
Furthermore, I went to that surgery and through it, completely in PEACE... (you could ask the surgeons as I had a good laugh with them before they put me out!) You would do well to lose your ANNHILATION FEAR trip, as Scripture plainly exposes such as OTHER than LOVE...
1 John 4:18 The Lord shall not be happy with you, should YOU die... better get "ready" Stephen... by your arrogance and false words of FEAR, ...you display that you are as unprepared as an Unbeliever... shivering and trembling about the "end"... When all along the END is the BEGINNING and the BEGINNING ...IS.. the END... simulataneously...
Rev 1:8 -- you cannot recognize for you are stuck in the carnal mindset... which FEARS... knowing
not, the PEACE and GRACE of God... which is found in HIS
LOVE...
Foolishly thinking the Lake of FIRE to be a literal FIREPIT of TORMENT, when GOD says Himself that FEAR and TORMENT are not even FOUND in LOVE, it CASTS them OUT...
Burning in your FEAR, and fervently proposing it to others,
instead of the
GOSPEL... Having no Spiritual concept at all, typing on your computer keyboard, MYRIADS of Scripture verses, ...while understanding NONE...
In your CONTINUAL blabber (at least as much as I have read)... you have not mentioned ANYTHING about the LOVE of GOD... Have you? If so where? And if not, WHY? We are commissioned to bring the
GOSPEL, not FEAR... :declare:
As far as being "ready", ...I have been
ready since the first day I came to KNOW Him! :boyheart: If you are having to "ready" yourself... you do not KNOW Him at all... :sigh: ...presently parroting the crooked ways and teachings of BABYLON... preaching nothing but FEAR... and carnal GARBLE...
...willieH :cloud9:
The fear of the Lord
Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge, [But] fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Proverbs 1:29 Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the fear of the LORD,
Proverbs 2:5 Then you will understand the fear of the LORD, And find the knowledge of God.
Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the LORD [is] to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate.
Proverbs 9:10 "The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One [is] understanding.
Proverbs 10:27 The fear of the LORD prolongs days, But the years of the wicked will be shortened.
Proverbs 14:26 In the fear of the LORD [there is] strong confidence, And His children will have a place of refuge.
Proverbs 14:27 The fear of the LORD [is] a fountain of life, To turn [one] away from the snares of death.
Proverbs 15:16 Better [is] a little with the fear of the LORD, Than great treasure with trouble.
Proverbs 15:33 The fear of the LORD [is] the instruction of wisdom, And before honor [is] humility.
Proverbs 16:6 In mercy and truth Atonement is provided for iniquity; And by the fear of the LORD [one] departs from evil.
Proverbs 19:23 The fear of the LORD [leads] to life, And [he who has it] will abide in satisfaction; He will not be visited with evil.
Proverbs 22:4 By humility [and] the fear of the LORD [Are] riches and honor and life.
Proverbs 23:17 Do not let your heart envy sinners, But [be zealous] for the fear of the LORD all the day;
Matthew
25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Quote from: Stephen on May 28, 2009, 02:08:14 PM
The fear of the Lord
25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
but approx. 25 years later, look what was known:
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.
"1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour."
Time lapse given in scripture and evaluation of "hour" in this case must be rendered correctly to understand
Last "hour" is on reference to "time" or era .... the last time
.... before His second advent
The "Day of the Lord", the "last days", at "that time", in "that day" are all in reference to a time frame, or period in which the Lord will do things
In this case, the "last hour" is an unknown time lapse that is still ongoing to this very day since the Lord's first advent
No one knows how long this course will run .... the Lord has not revealed the duration .... those believers in the first century did not know, but were waiting and watching ..... just as we must today
We are still living in the "last hour" [time] before His return
Many have come and are "against the Lord" [anti-christ] and even claim to be His followers
And so will the "antichrist" come as the scriptures tell .... the little horn, the Assyrian, the king of the northern Middle East, satan's beast from the abyss
Quote from: Stephen on May 28, 2009, 02:49:15 PM
"1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour."
Time lapse given in scripture and evaluation of "hour" in this case must be rendered correctly to understand
Last "hour" is on reference to "time" or era .... the last time
.... before His second advent
The "Day of the Lord", the "last days", at "that time", in "that day" are all in reference to a time frame, or period in which the Lord will do things
In this case, the "last hour" is an unknown time lapse that is still ongoing to this very day since the Lord's first advent
No one knows how long this course will run .... the Lord has not revealed the duration .... those believers in the first century did not know, but were waiting and watching ..... just as we must today
We are still living in the "last hour" [time] before His return
Many have come and are "against the Lord" [anti-christ] and even claim to be His followers
And so will the "antichrist" come as the scriptures tell .... the little horn, the Assyrian, the king of the northern Middle East, satan's beast from the abyss
scripture plainly states it was the last hour, and satan would be crushed shortly.
Zeek,
Revelation 12:12; 20:1
Both future events
Psalm 33:8 Let all the earth fear the LORD; let all the people of the world revere him.
Rev 15:4 Who will not fear you, O Lord,
and bring glory to your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come
and worship before you,
for your righteous acts have been revealed."
The fear of the Lord is a reverence and respect for the awesome power and love of the Lord.
NOTICE: ALL will fear the Lord. Fear of the Lord leads to wisdom. But also:
Psalm 145:19 He fulfills the desires of those who fear him;
he hears their cry and saves them.
God fullfills the desires of those who fear Him, and He will save them. Therefore God will save ALL.
QED. Peace...
Jesus Christ will save only those who seek Him, repent of sin, and choose to accept His offer of salvation .... unfortunately the majority of humanity will not pay heed to His calling
Form the apostle here, it sounds like you have it backwards on both counts, both whether who is saved is actively seeking or not and just who will not pay Him any heed. The world, at least according to Jesus, is not a wilderness of weeds, it is God's cultivated field.
Romans 10:20-21 (CLV)...
20 Yet Isaiah is very daring and is saying, I was found by those who are not seeking Me; I became disclosed to those who are not inquiring for Me.
21 Now to Israel He is saying, The whole day I spread out My hands to a stubborn and contradicting people!
Quote from: Stephen on May 29, 2009, 05:53:31 AM
Jesus Christ will save only those who seek Him, repent of sin, and choose to accept His offer of salvation .... unfortunately the majority of humanity will not pay heed to His calling
Stephen, like reFORMer said, you have it backwards. And you are ignoring plain scripture.
Romans 3:11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost.
The majority (actually all) of humanity will pay heed to His calling eventually:
Isaiah 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 "I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
So we see from scripture that no one is seeking God, in fact Jesus is seeking us. Eventually all will not only bow and confess, but even swear allegiance! Everyone will by loyal and praise God, and God will save them.
For someone who is in the habit of posting entire chapters of the bible, I would expect you should know these verses already.
Peace.
Quote from: Stephen on May 29, 2009, 05:53:31 AM
Jesus Christ will save only those who seek Him, repent of sin, and choose to accept His offer of salvation .... unfortunately the majority of humanity will not pay heed to His calling
What about the love factor you seem oblivious to? What about the passage that speaks about how ungodly men give wonderful things to their children, how much more the God of heaven gives his gifts to his children as well? (Matt. 8 11-13)
Everything you're doing is being based on the power of a man's mind. To say that the ONLY way I can go to heaven is if "I" concsiously acknowledge Jesus. You are giving more power to your mind than you are to the blood of the Lamb. You didn't do anything to be a sinner . . .you don't do anything to be redeemed.
You're too stuck on that part of it to understand that those who abuse this gift do face great consequences. You want to live however you choose, fine, but there's a price for that . .but it ain't eternal damnation . .that's really all we're saying. Paul even says I can do whatever I choose, it's just that not everything is beneficial to me.
Phillippians says that God is IN me transforming my desire, working in me both to WILL and to DO his good pleasure . .it's not from my own conscious decision making that he manifests in me, it's HIS decision for choosing me that has transformed me. You worry much about the outside . . .but the outside is nothing more than evidence of what is going on with the inside.
This is the easy yoke, this is the freedom in Christ . . this is the waters for all who are thirsty . . it's not another list of rules of do's and don'ts . . . it's freedom FROM my own limited mind of understanding.
WOW ! :msealed:
I know that without the desire that the Lord gives us to seek Him we would not do this on our own ''flesh and blood reasoning ''
Peter would not have confessed Christ Jesus as the Son of God, if God has not spoken in the Holy Spirit to him [Peter] by truth/revelation..
even Peter a fine example of how the Lord God draws us to Himself Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
and I am sure that comforted Peter 's fears for that moment
but we see in other places Peters fears got the better of him
when he denied Christ after the revelation /truth was given to him .........
to me this is HOW our faith is tested by others /satan /spirits
God bless :HeartThrob:
:cloud9: Amen Nathan and Rose...... :thumbsup: