Tentmaker Forum

The land promise is one of the central themes of the Old Testament; the story about God's promise of the land of Canaan to Abraham, his sojourn in it, and anticipation of inheriting the land, Israel's Exodus from Egypt, and their wanderings in the wilderness under Moses, and taking possession of the land under Joshua, and the distribution of land, and dwelling in the land, and ruling it, and their eventual loss of the land, forms the outline of the Hebrew scriptures.

After some of the Jews returned from exile in Babylon the prophets spoke of another exodus. They said Israel will yet be brought back to possess the promised land. And they will never be removed from it again.

What happens to the land promise in the New Testament? There are only a few references to the promise of the land in the New Testament. One of these is the reference to a "better land," that Abraham and the other patriarchs looked for, in Hebrews 11.

Hebrews 11:13-16 Weymouth New Testament
All these died in the possession of faith. They had not received the promised blessings, but had seen them from a distance and had greeted them, and had acknowledged themselves to be foreigners and strangers here on earth; for men who acknowledge this make it manifest that they are seeking elsewhere a country of their own. And if they had cherished the remembrance of the country they had left, they would have found an opportunity to return; but, as it is, we see them eager for a better land, that is to say, a heavenly one. For this reason God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has now prepared a city for them.

This speaks of a better land. It is heavenly, and it is a "better" land, because possessing it is not limited to the short human life-span; it is an eternal inheritance, a city prepared by God.

Hebrews 3:16-19 refers to the Israelites in the wilderness, when the spies brought their report to Moses. "For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."

There is a parallel here, between the experience of the Israelites, and Christians. Belief is required to enter and possess the "better land" of the saints. And being heavenly, it is spiritual. It is not referring to a place where one goes after death, but something that believers may have in this present life.

Hebrews 4:1-2
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

The "better land" has to do with believing the gospel.

Hebrews 4:11-12
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

It requires labour, to enter the rest. The "better land" is called a "rest," and it is not the land of Canaan, but Canaan in the Old Testament was a metaphor, that foreshadowed the rest promised to the saints. The rest is connected with the word of God, which has much to say about the land of Canaan, in various prophecies, that need to be interpreted, and viewed in a new way, in the light of the gospel. This is a most interesting and rewarding study.

Doug

It is the labor of understanding that God is the land (love) that we will enter into. Love (God, land) is the firm foundation upon which we stand and proclaim Him (love) to others.

If love was a substance, it would be the ground upon which we walk.
If love was a substance, it would be water to quench our thirst.
If love was a substance, it would be the air we breath that sustains our life.
If love was a substance, it would be the fruit that tastes so sweet.

Need I go on. God is everything that gives and sustains life.

By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.

For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God

--Heb 11:9



.Hebrews 11:16 Instead, they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.


Hebrews 13:14 For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come.


For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 Cor 5

2 Corinthians 3^17-18:  "Now the Lord is the spirit; yet where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.  18 Now we all, with uncovered face, mirroring the Lord's glory, are being transformed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as from the Lord, the spirit."

"You shall call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sin."  Smite your chest, point at your arm and proclaim, "This is the Holy Land!  God will have a people who possess it by the power of the Holy Ghost Who is with us."  In the fulfillment of the feast of Tabernacle we will possess our bodies as no longer merely born of Adam, but born of God.  Salvation is to result in incorruptible immortality.  We must overcome many things, be victorious in many ways, conquering all things destroying man to obtain complete salvation.  These victories are accomplished by the Holy Spirit Who will never leave or forsake us.  As Jesus said, "Of mine own self I can do nothing.  It is my Father Who is with me; He doth the works."

We have regenerated spirits.  We have come out of Egypt, partakers of the Passover Lamb.  Now, in the Holy Place, the mid heaven, this salvation is worked out through the soul.  It is a transformation into God's likeness, His similitude.  Due to keeping His Word in our hearts and yielding to the Holy Spirit to do the Father's will, we come to think and emote like Him, aligned with His will.  It is the work of the Holy Spirit within us by which this is accomplished.  Ultimately our bodies will be transformed into a body like unto His body of glory.  The land is our body.  It is also the promises worked by the Holy Spirit as an earnest or foretaste of our inheritance as born of God, that we shall have deathless bodies of glory, that we shall possess the substance of the Spirit.  There are warfares to be accomplished to obtain the incorruptible life for our bodies  These are typified, they're presented symbolically in the account of the Israelites obtaining a land and a kingdom, driving out the nations which were there before them. 

Quote from: jugghead on September 02, 2012, 05:14:01 AM
It is the labor of understanding that God is the land (love) that we will enter into.

The labour mentioned in Hebrews 4:11 is labour that is connected with belief, and understanding the scriptures, as verse 12 shows. Paul said to Timothy, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." [2 Tim. 2:15]

The promised land contrasts with Egypt, the wilderness, and with all other lands. In relation to the lands of other nations, the promised land was Yahweh's land. His eyes were always on it. "But the land, whither ye go to possess it, is a land of hills and valleys, and drinketh water of the rain of heaven: A land which the Lord thy God careth for: the eyes of the Lord thy God are always upon it, from the beginning of the year even unto the end of the year." [Deut. 11:11-12]

In the law of Moses, the priests and Levites received no inheritance of land. God was their inheritance, in lieu of land. [Num. 18:20; Deut. 10:9] This could be the foundation for development of the idea that "God is the land."

The promised land was a place of rest, [Josh. 1:13; 14:15; Jud. 3:11] but when Israel possessed the land, another rest was spoken of. "For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day." [Heb. 4:8] It was rest of a spiritual kind, which was why the psalmist said, "Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness." [Psa. 95:8] The promised land, and the sabbath are both called a "rest," and represent the same thing.

The promised land was set in the midst of the nations of the world; [Ezek. 5:5] the NIV says "This is what the Sovereign Lord says: This is Jerusalem, which I have set in the center of the nations, with countries all around her."

The words of the law of Moses were written upon the land. [Deut. 27:3 Josh. 8:32] It is called "a land flowing with milk and honey," [Ex. 3:8; 13:5; 33:3; Lev. 20:24] where grapes, pomegranates, and figs flourish. [Num. 13:23]

Ezekiel called Israel's land "the glory of all lands." [Ezek. 20:6, 15] Daniel referred to Jerusalem as "the glorious holy mountain." [Dan. 11:45] The scope of the promised land becomes progressively smaller in Old Testament history; at first, it stretches all the way "from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates." [Gen. 15:18] The boundaries of Israel are more limited in Numbers 34. In Ezekiel's description, which outlined a profoundly different distribution of the land among the tribes, it was even more limited. Portions of the promised land east of the Jordan River were left out. [Ezek. 48:1-8] After the return from exile, the land was limited to the area in the vicinity of Jerusalem.

As the extent of Israel's land was diminished, the prophets spoke of its elevation. Jerusalem would be raised up, Isaiah said. He wrote, "The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it." [Isa. 2:1-2]

Similarly, Zechariah said Jerusalem would be raised up, and the country around about would become a plain. "All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up." [Zech. 14:10]

In the New Testament, Jerusalem is described as "Jerusalem which is above," [Gal. 4:26] and "heavenly Jerusalem." [Heb. 12:22] Thus, mount Zion, and Jerusalem, are raised up to heaven, and "established in the top of the mountains" and "exalted above the hills;" the New Testament shows that Isaiah's prophecy was fulfilled. No doubt this happened when Jesus ascended to his Father's throne, after his resurrection. He was the "sure foundation" in Zion. Isaiah said, "Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste." [Isa. 28:16]

The elevation of Jerusalem, and mount Zion, spiritually fulfilled in Christ, who has inherited all the promises of God, [2 Cor. 1:20] establishes the continuity of the land promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and the "better land" of Hebrews 11:16. The New Testament interprets the promises of the Old Testament in a spiritual way; the land in the Old Testament foreshadows the reality of spiritual promises brought in by Christ. These are represented by the "better land."

The earthly temple foreshadowed the spiritual reality, which is Christ and the church. [Eph. 2:20] The new covenant is founded on better promises than the old one; "They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: 'See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.' But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises." [Heb. 8:5-6 NIV]

As shown above, continuity exists between the promised land and the better land of the new covenant. Thus, prophecies about the land of Israel apply to the heavenly, spiritual promised land. After Jesus Christ ascended to his Father's throne in heaven, the Israel of prophecy is the church, and the Jerusalem of prophecy is the heavenly city.

Further study of the topics mentioned in this quick survey will be needed to bring out the full significance of the land promise and its connection with the gospel.

Doug

For me, the understanding of "all in all" is this, when I read His word, I become the words, meaning that I am "all in all".

At any given point in time, the time frame of my life, I am a character in the Bible, I also am everything described in the Bible. When I read the word "stone" I ask myself (examine myself) how am I a stone? Am I a stone that the law is written upon? Am I as stone in a foundation? Am I a stone used by another to cause the death another?

Am I a tree? What kind of tree am I? How am I the ground? Am I just ground that others walk on? or am I ground that is a firm foundation of love?

How am I like Paul? How am I like Babylon? How am I like Lucifer? Even understanding the differences in how Lucifer is described is at any point how I could be. Lucifer who was given a new name "Satan" who is also called the devil "the accuser".

If I do not understand that I can be anything described in the Bible at any given point in my life, I walk away from the mirror and forget who I am.

My understanding of "all in all" is not just a description of the lives of others or a description of other things, it is a description of myself at any given point in time. It has become a mirror to me, and God reveals to me who I was when I made a bad choice and who I was when I made a good choice.

This is what I see will happen on the last day of judgment by God the Father, and we will see (understand) who we had become through sin so that we can see (understand) who we are to become through righteousness.

One of the classic works on the study of the land promise in the light of the New Testament was by W. D. Davies (1911-2001), a Welsh Congregational minister and theologian and a professor at Yorkshire United College, Duke University, Princeton University, and Union Theological Seminary in NY.

W. D. Davies. The Gospel and the Land: Early Christianity and Jewish Territorial Doctrine. University of California Press, 1974.

Davies said Jesus has become the focus of the Old Testament promises; he fulfills the land promise in many ways.

A notable example was when Jesus said to Nathanael that he would see angels ascending and descending on himself, identifying himself with Bethel, perhaps implying that He replaces the land, or at least, fulfills the land promise made to Jacob in Genesis 28. Davies wrote: [Ibid. p. 298.]

The point of John 1:51, in part at least, is that it is no longer the place, Bethel, that is important, but the Person of the Son of Man. It is in his Person that "the house of God and the gate of heaven" are now found. Where the Son of Man is the "heaven will be opened" and the angels will ascend and descend to connect that heaven with earth, that is, in 1:51 Jesus is not to be set over against Jacob or the ladder of his dream, but over against the sanctuary at Bethel itself, which had been a link between heaven and earth and the place of God's habitation on earth. This interpretation has the advantage over many others proposed of relying simply on the Biblical text at Gen. 28. Furthermore, it comports well with the idea of the humanity of Christ as the dwelling place of God with men and as the new temple with which we have already dealt, and especially with the concept of the Logos becoming flesh in 1:14.

Davies summarized the way Jesus 'transformed' traditional Jewish ideas about the land: [Ibid. p. 375.]

In the last resort this study drives us to one point: the person of a Jew, Jesus of Nazareth, who proclaimed the acceptable year of the Lord only to die accursed on a cross and so pollute the land, and by that act and its consequences to shatter the geographic dimension of the religion of his fathers. Like everything else, the land also in the New Testament drives us to ponder the mystery of Jesus, the Christ, who by his cross and resurrection broke not only the bonds of death for early Christians but also the bonds of the land.

In his discussion of the land in John's gospel, Davies wrote: [Ibid. p. 331.]

We need not here examine the question how far the concept of "life," as a symbol of salvation, remained inseverable from the land and how far the land became a secondary element, if at all, in the understanding of "life." What is noteworthy is that in the Fourth Gospel the concept of "life" or "eternal life" assumes a significant role. At no point is it connected with the land in any way. Rather it is always centered in Jesus himself, who in this sense, has become "the sphere" or "space" where life is to be found. True, there is one passage, 5:25 ff, when the life of the Age to Come is apparently conceived within the framework of the traditional eschatology of Judaism.

    25 Truly, truly, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those that hear shall live,
    26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself,
    27 And has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man.
    28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
    29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.

    Here John doubtless conceives, in verse 29, of resurrection in the land: compare with Dan. 12:2 (LXX). But the main emphasis in the gospel is that expressed in 11:24 ff where the traditional doctrine is quietly laid aside in favour of a new.

    Jesus said to her [Martha], "Your brother will rise again." Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection, and the life, he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, And whoever lives and believes in me shall never die."

    The point of reference for understanding life in this world, and in the world to come, is Jesus Christ. Any traditional concepts, geographical and other, governing the understanding of "life" are dwarfed by the centrality of Christ.

Davies showed that in the New Testament, a literal interpretation of the land promise has been eclipsed. However, he may have missed some of the great results and implications of his own thesis. For example, his list of scripture references omits anything from Genesis 3, where we find:

Genesis 3:17
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.

If the land represents Jesus, wouldn't this be significant?

Doug

Gary M. Burge, a professor of New Testament at Wheaton College, is the author of two books that are relevant to the discussion of the significance of the land promise.

Gary M. Burge. The Bible and the Land. Zondervan, 2009.

On pp. 21-22 Burge wrote:

The land is the cultural stage-setting of the Bible. Biblical stories assume we know something about altars, sheepfolds, cistern water, and the significance if the wind blows west out of the desert. To project European or American notions of farming (seed distribution) or fishing (cast and trammel nets) or travel (at night or day) onto the Bible is to immediately distance oneself from what the Bible may have intended to say.

All literature is born within a cultural landscape. It will pick up themes and images from within that landscape, use them generously, and build a framework from which stories can be told. This is no less true for the Bible. The land and its culture, not merely the history that happened there, are an indispensable part of the biblical story.

I certainly agree with the concept expressed here. God has chosen to reveal himself through the people of Israel, and by his promises to Abraham, where he was promised the land of Canaan. So in the language of the Hebrews, and in the context of the history of Israel, Jesus came and ministered on earth; Paul said, the main benefit in being a Jew was not that they were promised the land of Canaan, but that they received the oracles of God. "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." [Rom. 3:1-3]

Through the oracles of God, and Jesus Christ, we have the hope of eternal life. So of course possessing the word of God is of far more value than possessing a rather small tract of land in Palestine.

Burge was also the author of the following:

Gary M. Burge. Whose land? whose promise?: what Christians are not being told about Israel and the Palestinians. Pilgrim Press, 2003.

On this book, reviewer E. Johnson wrote:

This is a book that you will either love or hate depending on your view of Dispensationalism v. Covenant Theology. Here, Burge--a professor at Wheaton College--shows why Zionism is not biblical, as he utilizes history and the Bible to show his point. The Tim LaHayes of the world will wrench their hands in disgust and say that Burge is missing clear evidence in the Bible regarding the place for the Jews in the end times. Yet many of these hyper-Dispensationalists need to not take their peripheral view of eschatology so seriously. Yes, end times are important, and yes, I think compassion on the Jews is needed. But as Burge points out, what about human rights for everyone? I just finished reading through Isaiah and Jeremiah, and boy, they sure were tough on "God's people" for their sins. I think it is important to show how a person's heritage should not matter since all people are created equal in God's sight, as Paul mentioned in Galatians that there is neither male nor female and neither Jew nor Greek. To classify an entire people as above the moral law and allow their government to persecute another people in the name of biblical presuppositions is immoral and should be condemned. And Burge explains this side very well.

After Jesus ascended to heaven, and to his Father's throne, the territory of Palestine lost its significance; this was pictured by Isaiah's prophecy that "every mountain will be made low," which was taken up by John the Baptist. The "mountains" in the prophecy are God's promises. The promise of literal land to ethnic Jews, descendants of Abraham in the flesh, was "made low." The earthly Jerusalem was no longer the "apple of his eye." [Zech. 2:8] That privilege belonged to the heavenly Jerusalem, the saints.

Doug

Another author who has contributed to the discussion of the land promise and its significance for Christians in the present age is O. Palmer Robertson, an American Christian theologian and biblical scholar, and the author of The Christ of the Covenants. He was a professor at Reformed Theological Seminary, Westminster Theological Seminary, Covenant Theological Seminary, Knox Theological Seminary and principal at the African Bible Colleges of Malawi and Uganda.

O. Palmer Robertson. The Israel of God: Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow. P & R Publishing. 2000.

On p. 13 he wrote:

The possession of the land under the old covenant was not an end in itself, but fit instead among the shadows, types, and prophecies that were characteristic of the old covenant in its presentation of redemptive truth. Just as the tabernacle was never intended to be a settled item in the plan of redemption but was to point to Christ's tabernacling among his people (cf. John 1:14), and just as the sacrificial system could never atone for sins but could only foreshadow the offering of the Son of God (Heb. 9:23-26), so in a similar manner Abraham received the promise of the land but never experienced the blessing of its full possession. In this way, the patriarch learned to look forward to "the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God" (Heb. 11:10).

Robertson warns, "By claiming the old covenant forms of the promise of the land, the Jews of today may be forfeiting its greater new covenant fulfillment." [p. 20.]

Bob Hayton wrote in a review (http://www.fundamentallyreformed.com/2008/11/10/the-israel-of-god-by-o-palmer-robertson-a-review/):

The book shows how the essence of the land promise was spiritual fellowship with God. This is enjoyed by the church today (Matt. 5:5, Rom. 4:13, Eph. 6:3). It argues that the worship and lifestyle of Israel is radically altered with Christ's provision of a better covenant (Heb. 7). It goes on to examine how Scripture defines the people of Israel, and it details how Gentile believers in the church are Abraham's children and heirs, true Jews, yes, even the Israel of God (Gal. 3:26-29, 6:16; Rom. 2:28-29, 4:11-12; Eph. 2:14, 19).

Robertson also wrote: O. Palmer Robertson. Understanding the Land of the Bible: A Biblical-Theological Guide. P & R Publishing, 1996.

Doug

Another resource:

Walter Brueggemann. The Land. Augsburg Books, 2002.

Brueggemann is Professor of Old Testament Emeritus at Columbia Theological Seminary, and on the Amazon.com site he is said to be "the world's leading interpreter of the Old Testament."

See a review here (http://www.amazon.com/Revised-Edition-Overtures-Biblical-Theology/product-reviews/0800634624/ref=cm_cr_dp_text?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0#R216EEWQLIRYHP).

Doug

Many of the things that are commonly said to be fulfilled in the millennium are actually referring to the better land, which the saints may enter now by faith in Christ. Things that the prophets said about the land often seem fantastic, or contradictory, if applied to the earthly Canaan in a literal way. This is true of tectonic events, animal behaviour, agriculture, and strange events affecting mountains, hills, deserts, and rivers. Understood spiritually, and interpreted, these prophecies make sense, and describe the spiritual benefits Christians may possess.

Isaiah 2:2-3 says Jerusalem will be "established in the tops of the mountains," and mount Zion will be raised up "above the hills." In the New Testament, Isaiah's prophecy is fulfilled; Paul refers to the "Jerusalem which is above." [Gal. 4:26] Jerusalem has been raised up, to heaven. This must have occurred when Jesus ascended to heaven, where he reigns on the throne of David, in "the city of the great King." Hebrews 12:22 refers to the "heavenly Jerusalem." When Jesus called Jerusalem "the city of the great king," he referred to the heavenly city, not the earthly one, which he declined to defend when it was besieged by the Romans in 70 A.D.

An example of the contradictions and absurd conclusions to which literalism leads is seen when Isaiah's prophecy about the elevation of Jerusalem is compared with Ezekiel's prophecy about the river flowing from the temple, in Ezekiel 47. Ezekiel's prophecy describes a gradual increase in the depth of the water, as the waters of the river flowed eastward. In a distance of about half a mile the change in level was about three feet, which implies that the slope of the land was comparable to the gradient of a football field, or a large parking lot. This low gradient of the land is incompatible with Isaiah's prophecy that said Jerusalem would be raised up. Any elevation of Jerusalem would mean an increase in the gradient of the adjacent land. It is also inconsistent with the existing topography. The relief in the area of the river which Ezekiel described does not fit his description, as the river became deepest in the place now occupied by the mount of Olives. In the probable location of the crucifixion, was where the waters in the river became so deep, Ezekiel could not walk across it, but would need to swim. If the river is taken to be symbolic of the message of the Gospel that flows from the church to the world, there is no contradiction. But Ezekiel's description makes no sense, if the river is interpreted as a literal stream.

Isaiah's prophecy about mountains being made low, and valleys exalted, the message proclaimed by John the Baptist, seems mysterious, and its meaning is obscure, when the land is taken literally. [Isa. 40:4] Why would God need a road in the desert? But the prophecy makes sense, if the mountains represent the promises of God. Israel's land promise was one of the mountains "made low" because of the Gospel; the literal land was relegated to the status of a mere shadow of something "better." The Levitical system of worship in the temple was "made low" as a result of the ministry of Jesus and his sacrifice which fulfilled those shadows and types. Isaiah said, "And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together." The glory of the Lord is revealed in the Gospel, and when the meanings of Bible prophecies are explained and understood. IMO, this is what is meant by the rough places being made plain, and the crooked straight.

Ezekiel said that the land will no longer "devour its inhabitants." When the spies brought their report about the land to Moses in the wilderness, they said "it is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof."

Numbers 13:32
And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature.

Ezekiel said this would cease.

Ezekiel 36:13-15
Thus saith the Lord God; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations:
Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the Lord God.
Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord God.

The land of Canaan, like other lands, was a place for the burial of the dead. It was said to devour its inhabitants; i.e., in the grave. "Death and the grave are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied." [Prov. 27:20]

Those who dwell in the better land, in Christ, are promised immortality, and so it is a land that does not devour its inhabitants. The land of Canaan is transformed to the heavenly mount Zion and the heavenly Jerusalem; it was a shadow and a type of the spiritual reality brought in by Christ.

Doug

Can I say something without offending anyone. explain all that to a child and they will look at you very strangely, the simplest answer a child, with childlike faith can understand is, GOD LOVES EVERYONE, why do we (including myself) complicate such a simple understanding

Quote from: jugghead on September 03, 2012, 03:39:58 AM
Can I say something without offending anyone. explain all that to a child and they will look at you very strangely, the simplest answer a child, with childlike faith can understand is, GOD LOVES EVERYONE, why do we (including myself) complicate such a simple understanding

Simplistic, I think you mean.

Doug

Beautiful post Doug. Altho we have had a few disagreements, I do agree with you that all the prophecies of scripture are fulfilled in the better land. This land, flowing with milk and honey, is available now, today, if we hear His voice and enter His rest. It will eventually(an administration suitable to the fulness of times) be the dwelling place of all, the lion laying down with the lamb, the joy of the whole earth, beautiful for situation, Mt. Zion, the dwelling place of the great king and the place where the soles of His feet are exalted above every name and so-called name.



But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church(ecclesia-called out ones) of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, "YET ONCE MORE I WILL SHAKE NOT ONLY THE EARTH, BUT ALSO THE HEAVEN." This expression, "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; for our God is a consuming fire.
(Heb 12:22-29)

"But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain." "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. 'Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.
(Psa 2:6-8)

He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
(Eph 1:9-12)

For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(Php 2:9-11)

Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
(Rev 5:11-13)

Quote from: eaglesway on September 03, 2012, 08:17:59 AM
Beautiful post Doug. Altho we have had a few disagreements, I do agree with you that all the prophecies of scripture are fulfilled in the better land. This land, flowing with milk and honey, is available now, today, if we hear His voice and enter His rest.

Thank you John.

The phrase "the land of milk and honey" implies that there is a connection between the promised land and the Scriptures. The apostle Peter said, "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby." [1 Peter 2:2]

Milk connects land with the word of God. Milk is contrasted with strong meat, in Hebrews. It represents the basic teachings of the gospel, while meat, or solid food, represents more advanced teachings, that require some mental "chewing." Milk is food for infants, who don't yet possess teeth, so cannot chew. It is symbolic of "the first principles of the oracles of God."

Hebrews 5:12
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Honey is also connected with the word, and especially with prophecy.

Revelation 10:9-11
And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

Honey is made by bees from the nectar of flowers. It is processed, and converted to honey. Likewise, prophecy has to be processed, or interpreted.

The manna that the Israelites collected and ate in the wilderness tasted like wafers made with honey.

Exodus 16:31
And the house of Israel called the name thereof Manna: and it was like coriander seed, white; and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey.

Jesus identified himself with the true manna, the bread of life.

John 6
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Eating Christ's flesh is a metaphor, a saying that must be interpreted, and the meaning is similar to the symbolic meaning of John eating the book given to him by the angel. I take it to mean understanding and believing the words of Scripture.

The teachings of Jesus contrasted with those of the Pharisees. Referring to them, Jesus said, "Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees." [Matt. 16:6] Later he explained this saying.

Matthew 16:11-12
How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Jesus used "leaven" as a symbol representing doctrine.

The scriptures that connect the word of God with milk and honey, also connect the promised land with the word of God.

The connection between the land, and the revelations of God, was implicit in Jacob's dream at Bethel where he saw a ladder reaching to heaven, and angels ascending and descending upon it. [Gen. 28:11-22] In the same dream, God promised to give him the land of Canaan. Angels ascending and descending on the ladder represent revelations from God. The promised land was the site of many revelations of God, over many centuries, and those given elsewhere were often about the promised land.

In the New Testament the angels ascend and descend upon Jesus, [John 1:51] which suggests that the promised land, or at least, Bethel, was a type, which foreshadowed Jesus.

Doug

Yea,  like in 1 Samuel 14

Now all the people of the land came to a forest; and there was honey on the ground. And when the people had come into the woods, there was the honey, dripping; but no one put his hand to his mouth, for the people feared the oath. But Jonathan had not heard his father charge the people with the oath; therefore he stretched out the end of the rod that was in his hand and dipped it in a honeycomb, and put his hand to his mouth; and his countenance brightened.
(1Sa 14:25-27)

His countenance was brightened, his spirit was restored, as ours is when the following verses are fulfilled in us.

Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him(honey), the eyes of your understanding being enlightened(as Jonathan's); that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. (Eph 1:15-21)

All of the following verses(after "the eyes of your understanding are enlightened") essentially describe the better land, in what are, in my opinion, the clearest description of the scope of the promised inheritance in Christ that exist in any one place in the scriptures.
Grace and Peace, John

Quote from: eaglesway on September 04, 2012, 06:50:40 AM
Yea,  like in 1 Samuel 14

Now all the people of the land came to a forest; and there was honey on the ground. And when the people had come into the woods, there was the honey, dripping; but no one put his hand to his mouth, for the people feared the oath. But Jonathan had not heard his father charge the people with the oath; therefore he stretched out the end of the rod that was in his hand and dipped it in a honeycomb, and put his hand to his mouth; and his countenance brightened.
(1Sa 14:25-27)

His countenance was brightened, his spirit was restored, as ours is when the following verses are fulfilled in us.

Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him(honey), the eyes of your understanding being enlightened(as Jonathan's); that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. (Eph 1:15-21)

All of the following verses(after "the eyes of your understanding are enlightened") essentially describe the better land, in what are, in my opinion, the clearest description of the scope of the promised inheritance in Christ that exist in any one place in the scriptures.
Grace and Peace, John

I agree, and especially if one includes the second chapter, which contains:

Ephesians 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Believers "sit together in heavenly places," which alludes to the "better land," and to Christ's kingdom. "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem." [Heb. 12:22] Paul also said,

Colossians 1
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Those who believe the gospel are delivered from darkness, and partake of the inheritance of the saints in light. Christ's kingdom of spiritual light is the territory of the "better land."

The better land which is promised to the saints represents knowledge of God, and the truth. It contrasts with other lands, which represent spiritual darkness, superstition, and delusions. This concept underlies the exile, which is so prominent in the O.T. After Israel had possessed the land promised to the patriarchs for a few centuries, they were taken into captivity. The ten northern tribes were taken to Assyria, and the Jews to Babylon. Many were scattered in other nations of the world, the diaspora.

Differences in doctrine and belief can separate people as effectively as if they were removed to a different country. The gathering of God's people to their land, foretold by the prophets, is spiritual; it involves a return to "the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." [Jude 3]

The prophets described this under the figure of a "second" exodus. Christ is bringing together the saints, not to the earthly Canaan, but to the "better land," and the knowledge of God, and the truth of the gospel.

Isaiah 11
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

The second exodus was also foretold by Ezekiel; he said not one will be left in the land of the heathen, but all will be brought back to their land, which is not the earthly Canaan, but the "better land," which is the true inheritance of the saints, where God's Spirit will be poured out upon them.

Ezekiel 39
25 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God.

In another story about honey in the Old Testament, it is the subject of a riddle. Samson was attacked by a lion, and he killed it. Later, bees made a honeycomb in the carcase. Samson noticed, and he collected some of the honey. Later he proposed a riddle about the event to the thirty young men of the Philistines who were guests at his wedding feast. The riddle was, "Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of the strong came forth sweetness." But Samson was tricked into revealing the mystery to his new wife, and she told the Philistines, who then provided the correct answer, and so Samson had to pay them.

The story connects honey and riddles; the honey associated with the promised land is also associated with a riddle; the question of the meaning of the promised land in the Old Testament. The solution to it is hidden from Philistines, who remain in darkness.

Doug

Romans 4^13-14 (KJV):
[13] For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. [14] For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Romans 4^13-14 (CLT):
13 For not through law is the promise to Abraham, or to his Seed, for him to be enjoyer of the allotment of the world, but through faith's righteousness.
14 For if those of law are enjoyers of the allotment, faith has been made void and the promise has been nullified,

The English word "world" in Romans 4¹³ represents the Greek cosmos of the original.  That the entire universe is interpreted by the apostle, recorded in scripture and accepted by the Eclessia to be what is meant by "the land" promised to Abraham and his seed should put to rest the continued attempt to claim the sliver of land in the Sinai peninsula as the literal and intended meaning in the scope of this particular promise.

Quote from: reFORMer on September 04, 2012, 05:36:54 PM

The English word "world" in Romans 4¹³ represents the Greek cosmos of the original.  That the entire universe is interpreted by the apostle, recorded in scripture and accepted by the Eclessia to be what is meant by "the land" promised to Abraham and his seed should put to rest the continued attempt to claim the sliver of land in the Sinai peninsula as the literal and intended meaning in the scope of this particular promise.

According to Molly, if I have understood her right, all the Christians of the world, of whatever nationality, race, ethnic origin, are Israelites, physically descended from the 12 tribes. But Ezekiel 39:8, quoted in my previous post, says every single one of them will be brought back to their land, none will be left in the lands of the heathen. If it means the small sliver of land in Palestine that wears the label "Israel" today, it would become a very crowded place.

Doug

Quote from: Doug on September 04, 2012, 05:58:21 PM

Quote from: reFORMer on September 04, 2012, 05:36:54 PM

The English word "world" in Romans 4¹³ represents the Greek cosmos of the original.  That the entire universe is interpreted by the apostle, recorded in scripture and accepted by the Eclessia to be what is meant by "the land" promised to Abraham and his seed should put to rest the continued attempt to claim the sliver of land in the Sinai peninsula as the literal and intended meaning in the scope of this particular promise.

According to Molly, if I have understood her right, all the Christians of the world, of whatever nationality, race, ethnic origin, are Israelites, physically descended from the 12 tribes. But Ezekiel 39:8, quoted in my previous post, says every single one of them will be brought back to their land, none will be left in the lands of the heathen. If it means the small sliver of land in Palestine that wears the label "Israel" today, it would become a very crowded place.

Doug

wow.  I keep forgetting about my inheritance as a child of the promise.

We are co-heirs with Christ who is "appointed heir of all things." [Heb 1:2]

:mshock:

In the story of Samson and the lion in which he found honey, there may be an allusion to the honey of God's word, and especially prophecy. [Judges 14]


The image above from the Telegraph newspaper in the UK is a lot like one in The Story of the Bible (http://www.coolnotions.com/PDImages/StoryOTB083_p211_SamsonKillsTheLion.jpg) by Charles Foster.

The Psalmist said that God's judgments are "sweeter than honey and the honeycomb."

Psalm 19:9-11
The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.
More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

Ezekiel was given a scroll to eat, which he said was "as honey for sweetness;" the scroll seems to be a symbol for prophecy.

Ezekiel 3:3
And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness.

This is similar to John eating the book given to him by the angel, which he said tasted like honey in his mouth. This book can also be identified with prophecy.

Revelation 10
8 And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.
9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

The honey from the lion gave rise to Samson's riddle, with which he challenged the Philistines: "Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of the strong came forth sweetness." If honey represents prophecy, as the scriptures quoted above suggest, perhaps the lion alludes to Christ. In scripture, Christ is represented by the brazen serpent Moses made in the wilderness; [John 3:14] by the pascal lamb slain at passover; [1 Corinthians 5:7] also also by a lion.

Revelation 5:5
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Honey seems to be associated with strength, and is contrasted with milk, which is excellent as a food for infants.

Doug

Amen Doug,

and following on into Ephesians 4 we see the better land, our inheritance(being conformed to the image of Christ- many sons unto glory) as a corporate inheritance among the ecclesia.

until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
(Eph 4:13-16)

Of course, the problem often is that we fail to read the beginning of Ephesians 4, where the way into the inheritance is revealed;

Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift.
(Eph 4:1-7)


This is echoed in Romans 12:1-5

Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
(Rom 12:1-5)

and Phillippians 2

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
(Php 2:5-13)

It seems we are too often focused on destinations, while seemingly ignorant of the way into them.

I am the door to the sheepfold, if anyone seeks another way into it he is a thief and a liar. My sheep kno my voice, and another they will not follow.

Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory. Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience, and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them. But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him--
(Col 3:1-10)

Quote from: eaglesway on September 05, 2012, 05:54:52 AM
Amen Doug,

and following on into Ephesians 4 we see the better land, our inheritance(being conformed to the image of Christ- many sons unto glory) as a corporate inheritance among the ecclesia.

until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
(Eph 4:13-16)

Yes, this is precisely what the "better land" is about. It is about the knowledge of God, and growing up to a mature understanding of the truth.

In comparison to all other lands, the promised land represents the knowledge of God, and the truth; in other lands, people are captive to delusions, and are in darkness; in the promised land there is light, and understanding, and freedom. Jesus said, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." [John 8:32]

The apostle Paul speaks of "every wind of doctrine;" in comparison to the opinions of men, and the human point of view, the word of God is rock, while their interpretations are winds and mists. Peter said false teachers are "clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever." [2 Peter 2:17]

One of the deceitful schemes of men involves the idea that the words of the prophets should be understood literally. For example, Isaiah's prophecy, that Jerusalem and mount Zion will be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills, is said to mean that it will be literally raised up. However IMO, this idea obscures its true meaning.

E. W. Hengstenberg mentioned that some of the Jewish commentators viewed Isaiah's prophecy about the elevation of Jerusalem and mount Zion literally. He wrote (on Micah 4:1, which is equivalent): [Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg. Christology of the Old Testament (http://books.google.ca/books?id=6iPDb0YEqHwC), vol. 1, T. & T. Clark, 1868. pp. 443-444.]

The sense can therefore be this only: "Zion, in future, so pre-eminently stands out from among the other mountains, that these serve, as it were, only for its foundation." Now, the elevation of the temple-mountain is considered, by several interpreters, as a physical one. Passages from Jewish commentaries, in which the expectation is expressed that, in the days of the Messiah, Jehovah would bring near Mount Carmel and Tabor, and place Jerusalem on the summit of them, will be found in Galatinus, de Arcams Catholicæ Veritatis, L. v. c. 3. The literal explanation has, in recent times, been defended by Hofmann and Drechsler.

The literalist approach was also promoted by rationalist German critics. Karl Marti (1855-1925) said the mountains will be lifted up physically. [Karl Marti. Das Buch Jesaja. Tübingen. 1900.]

G. H. Box and S. R. Driver wrote on Isaiah 2:2, "Upon the top of the mountains: Mount Zion is to be physically raised, so as to assume the position assigned to the mythical mountain of the gods, which reached from earth to heaven. Cf. Zech. 14.10; Ezek. 40.2." [George Herbert Box, Samuel Rolles Driver. The Book of Isaiah (http://archive.org/details/bookisaiah00unkngoog). p. 32.]

They also stated: [Appendix III., pp. 363-364]

From other passages it is made evident that Zion is destined in the final drama of the world to become the highest mountain on the earth (cf. Is. 2.3 = Micah 4.1; Zech. 14.10). If as Gunkel conjectures the highest mountain is the mountain in the north (the mythical mountain of the gods which reached from earth to heaven) on which, in the original form of the myth, the heavenly city of the great King lay (cf. Rev. 21.10), then all is clear. In the last days, according to eschatological prophecy, Zion is to be elevated to the position occupied by the great mountain of tradition in the north.

These critics viewed Isaiah's prophecy as myth, and they stood aloof in unbelief. Yet, they have influenced many who were believers. Some promoted a literal interpretation along with a figurative or symbolic one. Benjamin Wills Newton wrote in Thoughts on parts of the prophecy of Isaiah (http://archive.org/details/thoughtsonparts00newtgoog) (1868) p. 64,

Shall be established in the top of the mountains, and be exalted above [or away from] the hills.] This exaltation of Zion like the cleaving asunder of the Mount of Olives (see Zech. ziv.) will be one of the results of Jehovah arising to shake terribly the earth. Zion will be raised high above all the other mountains that will begirt (see Ps. cxxv. 2,) Jerusalem and thus the light of the glory of the Lord, even as from an exalted besuion, shall be made manifest afar off. This physical exaltation of Zion will be one of those symbolic facts with which the millennium abounds. (See Occasional Papers No. iv. Vol. 2, p. 245.) It will indicate the established supremacy of the Divine government over all the subordinate authorities of earth. Then "the mountains [i. e. the greater authorities of earth] and the little hills [the lesser authorities] shall bring peace to the peoples by means of righteousness." They shall be ministers of righteousness, and the fruit of righteousness shall be peace.

Quote from: eaglesway on September 05, 2012, 05:54:52 AM

Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory. Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience, and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them. But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him--
(Col 3:1-10)

Viewing the elevation of mount Zion in Isaiah's prophecy as the elevation of literal mountains and hills is a flawed approach, and one that ignores Paul's advice, "Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth."

God's words in prophecy express not man's point of view, but God's. And the language is not the language of men; Isaiah said, "with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people." [Isa. 28:11] The words "another tongue" imply that prophecy needs to be interpreted. It is the language of parable, metaphor, and similitudes.

Joseph Addison Alexander wrote on Isaiah 2:2: [Isaiah translated and explained. 1851. pp. 38-39.]

The prophecy begins with an abrupt prediction of the exaltation of the church, the confluence of nations to it, and a general pacification as the consequence, vs. 2-4. In this verse the Prophet sees the church permanently placed in a conspicuous position, so as to be a source of attraction to surrounding nations. To express this idea, he makes use of terms which are strictly applicable only to the local habitation of the church under the old economy. Instead of saying, in modern phraseology, that the church, as a society, shall become conspicuous and attract all nations, he represents the mountain upon which the temple stood as being raised and fixed above the other mountains, so as to be visible in all directions. And it shall be (happen, come to pass, a prefatory formula of constant use in prophecy) in the end (or latter part) of the days (i. e. hereafter) the mountain of Jehovah's house (i. e. mount Zion, in the widest sense, including mount Moriah where the temple stood) shall be established (permanently fixed) in the head of the mountains (i. e. above them), and exalted from (away from and by implication more than or higher than) the hills (a poetical equivalent to mountains), and the nations shall flow unto it.

Alexander applied the prophecy to the church. Isaiah's prophecy came to pass when Jesus ascended to his Father's throne, after his resurrection, when he was "made Christ." [Acts 2:36] This meant he fulfilled all the prophecies about the promised Messiah, who was to be given the throne of David, reigning over all the twelve tribes of Israel, in Jerusalem. Jesus represented the "mountain" of the Lord's house, the foundation stone laid in Zion.

Isaiah 28:16
Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

In prophecy, a "mountain" signifies a promise of God; mountains were the highest and most prominent parts of the promised land, and so they stand for the lofty, and high, spiritual revelations. This was understood by Jacob, when he blessed his son Joseph. He said, "The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills." [Gen. 49:26] The blessings he received were high, as they were spiritual in nature, and eternal, so he compared them with the "everlasting hills." This is the foundation for a biblical interpretation of mountains in prophecy. The promise of a Messiah is one of the great mountains in the better land, that represents the spiritual inheritance of the saints. His kingdom is over all, so it is a mountain that fills the earth. [Dan. 2:35]

Doug

Quote from: Doug on September 04, 2012, 09:49:24 PM

The story connects honey and riddles; the honey associated with the promised land is also associated with a riddle; the question of the meaning of the promised land in the Old Testament. The solution to it is hidden from Philistines, who remain in darkness.

The word for riddle in the LXX of the Samson story is the word Enigma.  That word is only used once in the NT.

1 Cor 13:12
For now we see in a mirror an enigma, but then we will see face to face.  Now I know in part, but then I will fully know, just as I have been known.

Mirrors reflect

But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

This is the better land no?


The beginning of the Samson story in Judges 14 has him going down to Timnah.  That word is the exact same word as image/form/likeness (different vowel points) here:

With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings (enigma), And he beholds the form(temunah) of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses?"

"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness(temunah) of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

The riddle in the land of the form/image.

Quote from: redhotmagma on September 05, 2012, 07:27:38 PM

Quote from: Doug on September 04, 2012, 09:49:24 PM

The story connects honey and riddles; the honey associated with the promised land is also associated with a riddle; the question of the meaning of the promised land in the Old Testament. The solution to it is hidden from Philistines, who remain in darkness.

The word for riddle in the LXX of the Samson story is the word Enigma.  That word is only used once in the NT.

1 Cor 13:12
For now we see in a mirror an enigma, but then we will see face to face.  Now I know in part, but then I will fully know, just as I have been known.

Mirrors reflect

But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

This is the better land no?


The beginning of the Samson story in Judges 14 has him going down to Timnah.  That word is the exact same word as image/form/likeness (different vowel points) here:

With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings (enigma), And he beholds the form(temunah) of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses?"

"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness(temunah) of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

The riddle in the land of the form/image.

This is interesting. The KJV has in 1 Cor. 13:12, "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face."

When we consider the state of glass making in Paul's time, it is likely that viewing through a glass gave only a very obscure image, as clear glass was not developed until about the end of the first century. So glass could be used both as a mirror, and as a translucent material.

There is another metaphor, that pictures the better land, and involves glass.

Revelation 15:2
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Here, those who have victory over the beast and his image stand on the sea of glass, that is before the throne in Revelation 4:6.

Their view of things in the "better country" is much clearer than that of a person who views the things of God through the sea of glass, that is, from an earth-bound point of view.

Doug

The 4 volume Lectures on the prophecies of Isaiah by Scottish minister Robert MacCulloch are said to contain the epitome of Vitringa's great work on Isaiah. The following is his commentary on Isaiah 2:2.

[begin quote from Robert MacCulloch. Lectures on the prophecies of Isaiah (http://books.google.ca/books?id=gv4qAAAAYAAJ), Volume 1. London, 1791. pp. 129-135.]

This prophecy relates to the same persons with the former, namely Judah and Jerusalem, by whom, as I observed from Chap. i. 1. we must understand the people of God, inhabiting those places to whom this message was primarily delivered; who afforded an instructive type of his peculiar people under the New Testament, who are intimately concerned in this subject, recorded for their admonition. In this view, we are deeply interested in the predictions before us; and, therefore, we ought diligently to attend to the important truths we now proceed to consider.

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lords house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills, and all nations ihall flow unto it.

In these words a most remarkable event, and the time of its accomplishment, is foretold. The time fixed for the accomplishment of this prophecy, is the last days, an expression which frequently occurs in the Old Testament. Though some commentators suppose the times of the gospel are intended by this phrase, I do not recollect any passage of scripture in which it is used to denote the whole period of that dispensation; nor is it thus understood by the Jews, to whom the oracles of God were committed, so far as I know. The season here referred to, is the concluding period of the Jewish church and state, prior to their abolition; and in this sense the words of the patriarch Jacob are to be explained, [Gen. xlix. 1.] where he informs his sons, what should befall them in the last days, in which the great Messiah was to come, before the sceptre departed from Judah. To this time, I suppose, Balaam looked forward, when he spake of the end of the days. 'In these last days (as the writer of the Epistle to the Hebrews remarks), God hath spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things and as the prophet Joel foretold; He poured out his Spirit upon all flesh, &c. [Joel ii. 28. et. seq.]

With great propriety is this description given to the last series of God's dispensations toward his church on earth, the last course of his providence toward this world, and the concluding scene in which the great work of man's redemption was accomplished. Then, saith the prophet, shall come to pass that which is written,

The mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains. Were these words to be literally explained, they would contain what would seem more like a fable of the poets, than a divine prediction, highly interesting to the church of God, and recorded for its benefit. They would affirm, that the mountain, on which the temple, or the Lord's house, was anciently built, called Zion, on which also stood the city of Jerusalem, was to be so prepared and established as to be exalted far above all other mountains, such as Sinai and Tabor, Carmel and Hermon; or rather, that it should be removed from off its basis, and be fixed on the tops of the hills. Every one sees the impropriety of such an explanation of the words, assured, that literally Mount Zion shall never be removed. No doubt the splendid edifice which adorned its summit, and the deep valley which lay at the bottom, made it appear immensely high; and as the Jews reckoned the land of Canaan was the highest part of the earth, and this mountain the highest ground of Canaan, they might consider it as exalted above the hills, and established as on the tops of the mountains. But this is not the import of the prophecy, which must be explained in its figurative and spiritual sense.

By the mountain of the Lord's house, we understand the church of Jesus Christ, the holy hill of Zion, over which God hath anointed him King, of which that mountain was an eminent type. The solid rocks, of which it was composed, afforded an instructive emblem of the stability and duration of the church of God, against which the gates of hell shall never prevail: its elevation above the neighbouring grounds, represented the dignity and influence of the church of Christ in its prosperous condition: being seen at a great distance, and enjoying the richest prospects, signified that the church is a city set on a hill, from whence the disciples of Christ are favoured with the most transporting views. In the church of the New Testament, as anciently in the mountain of the Lord's house, the Living God takes up his peculiar residence, so as to dwell in the midst of it; his presence is enjoyed, his glory is seen, and therein he is honoured and served according to his own appointment. In this sense we understand the mountain of the Lord's house, which is here foretold.

Shall be established in the tops of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills. Both expressions seem designed designed to intimate, that the church of God should be exalted to distinguished dignity; and, on account of the peculiar privileges wherewith it should be invested, should far excel all that are called hills and mountains; and therefore its praises should be celebrated, and its fame spread abroad through the earth. The Son of God was to elevate his church to the highest honour, by appearing in the Lord's house, and there delivering the glorious truths of the gospel; whereby he was to afford a much clearer revelation of the divine glory, and to institute a far more perfect worship, than ever had been ordained from any other mountain, not excepting Sinai itself. He was to give the most wonderful demonstrations of the divine presence among men, the fame whereof should spread through the whole world; so that the nations should be happily disposed to renounce their vain superstitions, to detest their false religions, and to submit to his doctrine and authority. We behold this prediction verified, when the Son of God, entering Jerusalem and the temple, laid the foundations of his kingdom, taught the ways of God in truth, and qualified his apostles for the faithful performance of his service, by his divine instructions and Holy Spirit. Then the mountain of the Lord's house was honoured with astonishing displays of the gracious presence of God, which were every where published abroad. The blessed consequences were, that the sublime doctrines, inculcated by Jesus Christ and his apostles, founded on eternal truth, which no human or infernal power shall ever be able to subvert, destroyed the false religions professed in the world; so that Mount Zion became far more illustrious and famous than any other mountain in the earth.

And all nations shall flow unto it. The vast concourse of people, which should resort to Zion, are here described in language which hath an obvious reference to the waters of a river flowing on in their course toward the sea. The expression intimates, that all nations should speedily, and in continued succession, repair to the church of Jesus Christ; whilst one should have powerful influence on another, all should press forward, with progressive force and rapidity, until they were received into its bosom. True, indeed, it is not more contrary to the course of nature, for water to run upward, and flow unto the tops of the mountains, than it is for men, alienated from the life of God, to refrain from walking in the vanity of their minds, and to have recourse to Jesus Christ, that they may participate of the blessings of his church. It ought therefore to be remembered, that the fountain from whence these mighty streams take their rise, which shall convey all nations to the great Redeemer, is in the highest heavens; and as waters rise as high as the spring from which they flow, the multitudes of people, here intended, shall be conducted not only to the house of the Lord, established on the tops of the mountains, but to that not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. How astonishing this event, that all nations, even those who had hitherto walked in their own ways, should resort, in great numbers, to Mount Zion, that they may join themselves to the church of God, in which are inculcated the difficult lessons of self-denial, the study of humility and inward purity, that are opposite and troublesome to human nature in its degenerate state! To excite in the people of God the lively expectation of this unlikely success of things, it was repeatedly foretold, by the prophets Jeremiah and Zechariah, [Jer. iii. 17; Zech. ii. 10, 11] That Gentiles, as well as Jews, should repair to the church under the New Testament. Such, accordingly, was the powerful agency of the Holy Spirit that attended the doctrine of Jesus Christ preached at Jerusalem, that devout men, of every nation under heaven, came and dwelt in that highly favoured city, as we read in the second chapter and 5th verse of the Acts of the Apostles.

Because of God's temple at Jerusalem, as the prophet David predicted, 'Kings shall bring presents  unto him.' [Psa. lxviii. 29] This prophecy was remarkably fulfilled, in the numerous converts from among the Gentiles, who were gathered into the apostolic church; though, it is hoped, it shall receive a still farther completion in the last days of the gospel dispensation. Improve this animating consideration, for strengthening and confirming your faith, in the accomplishment of this, and similar predictions, notwithstanding every intervening difficulty; and for encouraging your earnest prayers to God, for the performance of the glorious things which yet remain to be fulfilled. However unlikely the foretold event may seem, the faithfulness of Jehovah hath never failed: he hath remembered his mercy from generation to generation, and his truth endureth for ever.

[/quote]

Doug

"Today, if you hear my voice......Let the one who has ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the eclessia.......

If we are "led by the Spirit" we are "(mature) sons of God

The promises are in Jacob, not in Esau.

But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions. And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it.
(Oba 1:17-18)

Esau sold the inheritance (transformation/sonship/Christlikeness) for momentary deliverance for fleshly discomfort- a bowl of soup. Esau today are all those who teach "godliness as a means of gain".

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
(Rom 8:18-19)

The sufferings of those who "set their affections on things above" are gauged to transform them, more precious than gold tried in the fire.  "If we suffer with Him we shall also reign with Him". Romans 8 entire is a road map from carnality to glory in Christ .

Zion manifests as children become sons, the government of God(kingdom) appearing in the "deliverers" as they ascend Mt Zion. This is the roadmap of Ephesians for the overcomers in Christ.

The deliverers will ascend Mount Zion To judge the mountain of Esau, And the kingdom will be the LORD'S.
(Oba 1:21)

Quote from: eaglesway on September 06, 2012, 07:06:12 AM
"Today, if you hear my voice......Let the one who has ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the eclessia.......

If we are "led by the Spirit" we are "(mature) sons of God

The promises are in Jacob, not in Esau.

But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions. And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it.
(Oba 1:17-18)

Esau sold the inheritance (transformation/sonship/Christlikeness) for momentary deliverance for fleshly discomfort- a bowl of soup. Esau today are all those who teach "godliness as a means of gain".

Hebrews 12:14-17
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

This suggests that Esau, in prophecy, could represent Christians who become "profane," and lose interest in the faith, and return to the world.

They are also pictured in Rev. 12:4, as stars cast to the earth. "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth."

Quote from: eaglesway on September 06, 2012, 07:06:12 AM
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
(Rom 8:18-19)

The sufferings of those who "set their affections on things above" are gauged to transform them, more precious than gold tried in the fire.  "If we suffer with Him we shall also reign with Him". Romans 8 entire is a road map from carnality to glory in Christ .

Zion manifests as children become sons, the government of God(kingdom) appearing in the "deliverers" as they ascend Mt Zion. This is the roadmap of Ephesians for the overcomers in Christ.

The deliverers will ascend Mount Zion To judge the mountain of Esau, And the kingdom will be the LORD'S.
(Oba 1:21)

Judgment that falls upon the mountain of Esau or Idumea is described in Isaiah 34.

Isaiah 34:5-6
For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

The sword is the word of God, the Bible. It is a spiritual sword, and a spiritual sword is used against spiritual enemies; "we wrestle not against flesh and blood." [Eph. 6:12]

There are many other prophecies about these events. One is 2 Thess. 1:7-9, "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

The New Testament seems to identify Ishmael the son of Hagar and Abraham with the fleshly seed of Abraham, the Jews who do not believe the gospel.

Galatians 4
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Doug

The better land represents the knowledge of God, and the spiritual inheritance of the saints. As the earthly Canaan was watered by rain, the better land is watered by God's Spirit. In many prophecies, rainfall is a metaphor representing the Spirit, which enables our minds to understand the scriptures.

In the reign of Ahab, Israel had strayed from the knowledge of God. The prophet Elijah prayed that there would be no rain, until he gave the word for it. As the effects of famine became worse, Ahab searched throughout the whole earth for Elijah. The three years and six months, when there was severe famine in the land, is mentioned several times in the New Testament. The same period, expressed as 42 months and 1,260 days, is featured in the prophecies of Revelation 11, 12, and 13.

Jesus said to the Jews, "But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow." [Luke 4:25] Some have suggested this woman was a type of the church.

James said, "Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months." [James 5:17] I suggest the three years and six months of famine in Elijah's day is a type and a symbol of the whole age of the church, after the book of Revelation was written, and the canon of the New Testament was closed.

Famines were a characteristic feature of the promised land. One occurred in Abraham's lifetime. "And there was a famine in the land: and Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there; for the famine was grievous in the land." [Gen. 12:10]

Another famine occurred in the days of Joseph, and it was revealed to Pharaoh in a dream, that Joseph interpreted. [Gen. 41:25-32] This famine was in all lands.

Genesis 41:54
And the seven years of dearth began to come, according as Joseph had said: and the dearth was in all lands; but in all the land of Egypt there was bread.

Because of the famine, Joseph's brothers travelled to Egypt, to buy bread there. All the family of Israel was reunited, and the brothers were reconciled. Israel remained in Egypt for four centuries.

In Egypt, there was very little rainfall; water for crops was obtained from the Nile, but the promised land was unlike Egypt, and its fertility depended upon rain.

Deuteronomy 11:10-12
For the land, whither thou goest in to possess it, is not as the land of Egypt, from whence ye came out, where thou sowedst thy seed, and wateredst it with thy foot, as a garden of herbs:
But the land, whither ye go to possess it, is a land of hills and valleys, and drinketh water of the rain of heaven:
A land which the Lord thy God careth for: the eyes of the Lord thy God are always upon it, from the beginning of the year even unto the end of the year.

Moses compared his doctrine to rain. "My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:" [Deut. 32:2]

Job compared his teachings to rain; he said, "they waited for me as for the rain." [Job 29:23]

David said that God will come like rain and showers. "He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth." [Psalm 72:6] He said God confirms his inheritance with rain: "Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful rain, whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance, when it was weary." [Psa. 68:9]

When Isaiah asked how long it would be, before people finally understood the words of the prophets, he was told that it would not happen, until land became "utterly desolate." No doubt the land referred to here the better land of the saints, which is made desolate because of flawed interpretations, and unbelief.

Isaiah 6:10-12
Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
And the Lord have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

God promises to give water to those who are thirsty, who thirst for knowledge, and the Spirit.

Isaiah 44:3-4
For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:
And they shall spring up as among the grass, as willows by the water courses.

The promise of blessing to those who thirst is one of the beatitudes, in the sermon on the mount.

Matthew 5:6
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Jesus spoke of thirst, as a metaphor, which depicts desiring God's word, and God's holy Spirit. The two are identified with one another; Jesus said, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." [John 6:63]

He said the Spirit is given to those who believe in him. [John 7:37-39]

Isaiah said rain and snow represent God's word.

Isaiah 55:8-11
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

In Ezekiel's prophecy of the judgment of Gog and Magog, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, are among the things that come upon the invaders. Hailstones must represent severe reproof. [Ezek. 38:22]

Daniel referred to something that is to be "poured out upon the desolate." [Dan. 9:27] The church, and the better country is desolate, due to the presence of the abomination of desolation, but the Spirit of God will be poured out. This is the "anointing" in verse 24.

Joel also wrote of this promise.

Joel 2:23
Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

The prophet Amos described a famine of "hearing the words of the Lord."

Amos 8:11-12
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

People searching for the words of the Lord recalls Ahab searching for Elijah.

In Revelation 11, the two witnesses have the power to shut heaven, so there is no rain during their ministry.

Several prophecies speak of a spiritual rainfall at the end of the age, like that in the days of the Apostles; these two periods seem to be represented by the "latter rain" and the "former rain." 

Hosea 6:3
Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

Hosea 10:12
Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the Lord, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.

To receive the Spirit, one must ask Jesus Christ.

Zechariah 10:1
Ask ye of the Lord rain in the time of the latter rain; so the Lord shall make bright clouds, and give them showers of rain, to every one grass in the field.

Jesus sends the Spirit, and those who do not worship him miss out on its benefits.

Zechariah 14:17
And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

The various scriptures predicting a time of rain upon the church's better land recall the great rain that occurred at the end of the three and a half years of drought in the days of Elijah.

James wrote:

James 5:7-9
Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Doug

Doug, thank you so much for "The Better Land" material.  I have been greatly blessed.  Have you any material/thoughts  on " a dry and thirsty land, where no water is." (Ps 63:1)...I wonder if there is a strong connection (spiritual truth) between this Psalm verse and the "I thirst" expressed by Jesus on the cross (John 19:28)..yes, I know there is a cross reference to Ps 69:21...  and why did Jesus refuse to drink the wine mingled with myrrh??? Thank you.

Quote from: goodreport on September 07, 2012, 02:09:51 AM
Doug, thank you so much for "The Better Land" material.  I have been greatly blessed.  Have you any material/thoughts  on " a dry and thirsty land, where no water is." (Ps 63:1)...I wonder if there is a strong connection (spiritual truth) between this Psalm verse and the "I thirst" expressed by Jesus on the cross (John 19:28)..yes, I know there is a cross reference to Ps 69:21...  and why did Jesus refuse to drink the wine mingled with myrrh??? Thank you.

On Jesus refusing the wine, perhaps the connection is: 

Mark 14:25
Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

Mark 15:23
And they gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh: but he received it not.

After his resurrection he was "made Christ." [Acts 2:36]

Doug

Quote from: Doug on September 06, 2012, 03:53:26 PM

Quote from: eaglesway on September 06, 2012, 07:06:12 AM
"Today, if you hear my voice......Let the one who has ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the eclessia.......

If we are "led by the Spirit" we are "(mature) sons of God

The promises are in Jacob, not in Esau.

But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions. And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it.
(Oba 1:17-18)

Esau sold the inheritance (transformation/sonship/Christlikeness) for momentary deliverance for fleshly discomfort- a bowl of soup. Esau today are all those who teach "godliness as a means of gain".

Hebrews 12:14-17
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

This suggests that Esau, in prophecy, could represent Christians who become "profane," and lose interest in the faith, and return to the world.

They are also pictured in Rev. 12:4, as stars cast to the earth. "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth."

Quote from: eaglesway on September 06, 2012, 07:06:12 AM
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
(Rom 8:18-19)

The sufferings of those who "set their affections on things above" are gauged to transform them, more precious than gold tried in the fire.  "If we suffer with Him we shall also reign with Him". Romans 8 entire is a road map from carnality to glory in Christ .

Zion manifests as children become sons, the government of God(kingdom) appearing in the "deliverers" as they ascend Mt Zion. This is the roadmap of Ephesians for the overcomers in Christ.

The deliverers will ascend Mount Zion To judge the mountain of Esau, And the kingdom will be the LORD'S.
(Oba 1:21)

Judgment that falls upon the mountain of Esau or Idumea is described in Isaiah 34.

Isaiah 34:5-6
For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

The sword is the word of God, the Bible. It is a spiritual sword, and a spiritual sword is used against spiritual enemies; "we wrestle not against flesh and blood." [Eph. 6:12]

There are many other prophecies about these events. One is 2 Thess. 1:7-9, "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

The New Testament seems to identify Ishmael the son of Hagar and Abraham with the fleshly seed of Abraham, the Jews who do not believe the gospel.

Galatians 4
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Doug

If Jerusalem is free, situated upon the heights of Zion, perhaps Sinai and Hagar are symbolic of all those who arre flesh and spirit(Hagar/Abraham) and Ishmael all the offspring of such. Where as Sarah/Abraham/Jerusalem correspond to all who are in the promise(better land), walking in the Spirit, in freedom. Esau, meanwhile, corresponds to all who trade their birhtright(transformation/Christlikeness/sonship) for "pottage", earthly things.

To literalize the prophecies to Edom and Ishmael(altho they certainly hav there literal fulfillments) misses the point as much as literalizing the prophecies about the promised land and the inheritance of faith that is in Abraham and to all his seed(Christ and the body).

The Holy Spirit once spoke to me, "The faith teachers hav become as Esau unto me, they have traded the glorious inheritance of becoming partakers of the divine nature for a bowl of pottage".

Then later He spoke to me, "The Haginites and the Copelandites are weak in the word". I asked, what do you mean Lord? He said to me, "It is written,'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word the COMES from the mouth of God'. They are all day turning stones into bread."

Of course, I ask no one to believe that testimony- it is what it is to me alone- but, for many years I have identified in Esau, the Christian teachers who apply the promises of God  primarily to success and happiness as opposed to carrying the cross and becoming mature sons and ministers of the new and living way.   I hav identified in Ishmael, the Christians who seek to fulfill the supernatural promise of God by "knowing" a slave woman- the law and the will of the flesh and the minds of men, as opposed to sowing in the spirit, waiting for Sarah to conceive according to the promise, giving birth to free sons and daughters in the better land, in te city of God, upon the heights of Zion.

Just food for thought, Peace, JM

Many readers will know of the work of Andrew Jukes, "The Restitution of All Things." He was also the author of a work on the types of the offerings in Leviticus:

Andrew John Jukes. The law of the offerings in Leviticus I-VII, considered as the appointed figure of the various aspects of the offering of the body of Jesus Christ. (http://books.google.ca/books?id=F4RUAAAAYAAJ) J. Nisbet and co., 1869.

In the first chapter of the above book, Jukes discusses the types in general, that are present in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and in Joshua, and their significance for the gospel. Included among these types is the promised land, which Jukes says foreshadows the better land of Hebrews 11:16, and the spiritual inheritance Christians may possess. He compares the different purposes and subjects of the books mentioned above, as they relate to Christian maturity.  The discussion is available here (http://tcc.customer.sentex.ca/dload/Jukes_types.html). 

Below, Jukes discusses some reasons why the study of the types had been neglected. He mentions the significance of milk, (a metaphor that represents the basic teachings of the gospel) and contrasts milk with strong meat. [Ibid., pp. 6-9.]

The real secret of the neglect of the Types, I cannot but think may in part be traced to this,--that they require more spiritual intelligence than many Christians can bring to them. To apprehend them requires a certain measure of spiritual capacity and habitual exercise in the things of God, which all do not possess, for want of abiding fellowship with Jesus. The mere superficial glance upon the Word in these parts brings no corresponding idea to the mind of the reader. The types are, indeed, pictures, but to understand the picture it is necessary we should know something of the reality. The most perfect representation of a steam-engine to a South-sea savage would be wholly and hopelessly unintelligible to him, simply because the reality, the outline of which was presented to him, was something hitherto unknown. But let the same drawing be shewn to those who have seen the reality, such will have no difficulty in explaining the representation. And the greater the acquaintance with the reality, the greater will be the ability to explain the picture. The savage who had never seen the steam-engine would of course know nothing whatever about it. Those who had seen an engine but know nothing of its principles, though they might tell the general object of the drawing, could not explain the details. But the engineer, to whom every screw and bolt are familiar, to whom the use and object of each part is thoroughly known, would not only point out where each of these was to be found in the picture, but would shew, what others might overlook, how in different engines these might be made to differ.

It is just so in the Types. He who knows much of the reality will surely also know something of the type. The real secret of our difficulty is that we know so little, and, what is worse, we do not know our ignorance. And the natural pride of our hearts, which does not like to confess our ignorance, or to go through the deep searchings of soul which attend learning and abiding in God's presence, excuses itself under the plea that these things are not important, or, at least, nonessential. Paul had to meet the same spirit in several of the early churches. Thus, in his Epistle to the Hebrews, when about to prove from a type the doctrine of Christ's everlasting priesthood, he speaks of Him as "a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec," he cannot go on with the proof without telling the Hebrews how much of the difficulty of the subject was to be traced not so much to its own abstruseness as to their spiritual childhood and ignorance. "Of whom," says he, speaking of Melchisedec, "I have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat." [Heb. v. 12, 13. See also 1 Cor. iii 1, 2.] It was their infancy in Christ, their lack of growth, which hindered their understanding the Scriptures. As in the natural world life and intelligence are different, just so is it in the spiritual. A man may be born of God, and as such, having the life of Christ, be an heir of heaven, sure of all that the love of God has laid up in store for the redeemed family in glory; and yet, like a child, know nothing of his inheritance, nothing of his Father's will, be a stranger to service and warfare, and ready to be deceived by any.

This is, I fear, the case with many believers now. The low standard of truth in the Church, making the possession of eternal life the end instead of the beginning of the Christian's course, has led many to think that if they have, or can at last obtain, this life, it is enough. But these are not God's thoughts. Birth, spiritual birth, is birth of God for ever,--a life once given never to be destroyed. Schooling, training, adorning, clothing, follow the possession of life, and even the knowledge of it. I own, indeed, that while the Christian is a babe, he needs milk, and ought never to be pressed to service: at such a time he does not need the deeper truths of Scripture; strong meat may choke the babe as much as poison. But milk, the simpler doctrines of the Word, will not support the man in active service. The man of God needs deeper truth: and it is, I believe, the lack of this deeper truth in the Church which so effectually leaves us without power or service, and brings it to pass that much of what is done is performed in the energy of the flesh rather than in the power of the Spirit.

I must add one word in connexion with the passage just alluded to, which, though beside our present object, may not really be beside the mark. It is written, "Strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." [Heb. v. 14.] It is "by reason of use," that is, by using the truth we already possess, that the senses are exercised to advance further. Let us act up faithfully to the light we have, use out fully the grace already given, then surely our spiritual strength will not only rapidly but wonderfully increase.

Doug

Here is another quote from Andrew Jukes, in which he compares the subjects of the books of Numbers and Joshua. Numbers is about the experience of the Israelites in the wilderness, and Joshua describes their entry into the promised land, and taking possession of it. Jukes says both are types of the Christian life.

Andrew John Jukes. The law of the offerings in Leviticus I-VII, considered as the appointed figure of the various aspects of the offering of the body of Jesus Christ. (http://books.google.ca/books?id=F4RUAAAAYAAJ) J. Nisbet and co., 1869.

[The notes to the text below can be found here (http://tcc.customer.sentex.ca/dload/Jukes_types.html).]

Numbers,—giving the history of Israel in the wilderness, their services, their trials, and their failures there,—brings out, I cannot doubt, repeated types of the Christian's experience and pilgrimage in the world as in a wilderness. Israel's history, as well as Israel's ordinances, was typical; their coming out of Egypt was typical; their sojourn in the wilderness was typical; their entering the land was typical; and the details of each of these portions of their history, the typical character of which in general is granted by all, will shew how perfectly the pictures are finished by the hand of One who well knew what He was describing.

In Numbers, then, we get types connected with the wilderness. Here the world is viewed not as the house of bondage, but as the place of trial, the scene of pilgrimage, through which Israel must pass to Canaan. [5] Thus, in those chapters in Numbers which are most allied in their character to the types of Leviticus, (where the offering of Christ, as in "the red heifer," is without doubt the great end of the representation, [6]) we have the sacrifice, not as in Leviticus, shewing some aspect of Christ's offering as bearing on communion, but as further coming in with particular application to the trials of a walk of faith in the wilderness; and meeting the cases of individual experience, such as contact with evil, or any other defilement.

I speak the less on this subject, because the whole character of the book is so obvious, [7] and to enter into the particulars would fill a volume. Suffice it to say, throughout we have the elect in the wilderness, learning there what man is, and what God is; what the ransomed people ought to be, and what they really are. We have the Levites,—I take one undoubted type from the fourth chapter,—the picture of the Church in service, with garments unspotted from pollution, passing onwards through the desert land; each day dependent on God for everything, and following the guidance of the fire and cloud, while they bear the vessels of the sanctuary, and care for them in the dreary waste. Those vessels all typified something of Christ. And the spiritual Levites have now to bear Him through the wilderness.

And so throughout, Numbers gives us the wilderness. The pillar of cloud preceding them; [Chapter ix.] the blowing of the silver trumpets, and the alarm in the camp; [Chapter x.] the murmuring after the flesh-pots of Egypt; [Chapter xi.] and the shrinking through unbelief from going up to Canaan; [Chapters xiii. xiv.]—fit representation of God's chosen people shrinking backward from the trials of their heavenly calling;— the want of water in the wilderness, and the stony rock opened to supply that need; [Chapter xx.] the whoredom with the daughters of Moab, [Chapter xxiii.] and the discouragement because of the way; [Chapter xxi.] what are all these but living pictures of the Christian pilgrim's experience as in the wilderness?

How different is Joshua from all this; experience again, I doubt not, but what different experience. The one teaching us our way in the wilderness, the other as already beyond Jordan in the land. Into this I fear some may find it more difficult to enter, because the reality which is represented is a thing unknown to them. Joshua teaches us, in type, the Church already with Christ in heavenly places, and but few saints apprehend this experience, or know what resurrection means. Thus the book of Joshua, if viewed typically, answers very nearly to the Epistle to the Ephesians. In either book we see the elect standing in the place of promise, but finding it still a place of conflict. As Paul says, "We are raised up, and made to sit together in heavenly places in Christ:" [Eph. ii. 6.] but that place is not yet the rest; for, as he proceeds in the same Epistle, "We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers in heavenly places." [Eph. vi. 12, cf. ch. 1. 6.]

The book of Joshua is just this. It describes to us Israel passing from the wilderness over Jordan into the land of Canaan. All these are emblems familiar to us. Jordan, as we all know, is the type of death, dividing the wilderness, this world, from the land of promise, heaven. Israel passes through Jordan without feeling its waters, and comes with Joshua into the promised land. When he passes Jordan, all Israel passes. And thus it was in Christ. The Church is dead with Him, buried with Him, risen with Him; but there is still a conflict, for the Canaanite will dwell in that land. And so it will be till the true Solomon comes. Oh, may He hasten His coming!

But let us take an example or two as illustrating this. In the fourth chapter we read of Israel crossing Jordan dryshod: in the fifth we read of their circumcision. As soon as they are over Jordan, so soon are they all called to be circumcised. Though the seed of Abraham, there had been no circumcision for Israel in the wilderness; but as soon as they come into the land, circumcision begins at once. Need I explain what this is, or shew how exactly it answers to "the eighth day" of the original institution? Circumcision was to be "on the eighth day." [Gen. xvii. 8; Phil . iii. 5.] To those at all familiar with the types, I need not say that "the eighth day" is always typical of resurrection. The eighth day, the day after the seventh or Sabbath, answers to "the first day of the week" on which Christ rose: it is however "the first day" in reference to seven having gone before. Seven days include the periods proper to the first creation. The eighth day, as it takes us beyond and out of these,—that is, beyond the limits of the old creation,—brings us in type into a new order of things and times, in a word, into the new creation or resurrection. With regard to circumcision, we are taught in Peter, that it represented "the putting away the filth of the flesh." To do this was the great attempt of the whole Jewish dispensation, and that attempt ended in failure; for resurrection, the place beyond Jordan, was not yet occupied by Israel. But since Christ, the true Joshua, has passed through Jordan, and since all the Church is in and with Him,—and because, as members of His body, the Church is dead and risen with Him,— therefore it is called to be circumcised, and to put away the filth of the flesh. "If ye be risen with Christ . . . put off anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy." [Col. iii. 1, 3, 5, 8.] True circumcision of the heart is only known and attained to in proportion as we know the power of the resurrection.

But to speak of other parts; how different throughout is the experience of the books of Numbers and Joshua. Not that in fact the two can really be separated, for in Christ the Church is apprehended for everything: but it is one thing to be apprehended of Him, and another to apprehend that for which we are apprehended. [Phil. iii. 12.] One portion of experience is often more apprehended than another. Indeed, our experience is but the measure of our individual attainment, the extent to which we have proved the truth, the apprehension in our own souls of that which is already true for us in Christ. The work of Christ for us has brought His members into every blessing, and faith at once rests on this; but experience only apprehends that amount of this which is realized in our souls by the Holy Ghost.

But to return to the difference of Numbers and Joshua. There was no difficulty in possessing the wilderness; but Israel had to fight for every step in the land. Instead of lusting for flesh as in the wilderness, in the land, in the knowledge of resurrection, the temptation is quite of another sort. We have confidence in strength, as before Ai; [Chapter vii.] confidence in knowledge, as in the case of the Gibeonites; [Chapter ix.] abusing grace, as in the case of Achan; understanding how it gives victory, but not seeing God's claims in it. As saints grow in grace and in the knowledge of their place as even now risen, they have another class of trials to meet in addition to the trials of the wilderness, "the wrestling, not with flesh and blood, but with principalities and powers in heavenly places." And this is in fact the book of Joshua.

Such is a very brief and imperfect sketch of the different character of some of the typical parts of Scripture. I feel how little what I have said will convey to one who has not studied it, the exceeding depth and fulness of my subject.

Does any one say that these are but points of knowledge, and as such of comparatively little value? I grant that they are points of knowledge, but I answer, we grow in grace through knowledge. [2 Pet. i. 2.] And one reason of the weakness of the Church is the shallowness of her knowledge on these points. To shew the use of this knowledge is not my present purpose. Suffice it to say, that were the types of Genesis understood, we should not see such grievous mistakes arising from confounding the dispensations, and mingling the things and hopes of one covenant with the things and hopes of another. And so of the rest. Know more of Exodus, that is, of redemption; know more of Leviticus, that is, of the ground of access to God; know more of Numbers, the experience of the wilderness; and of Joshua, the experience as even now beyond Jordan; and then see if you have not something more to use in service for Him who redeemed and loved you.

That thus it may be with us indeed, let us pray that the Lord will keep us near to Himself, in abiding communion with Him. Amen.

Doug

Frederic Gardiner was the author of the section on Ezekiel, in Ellicott's Old Testament commentary.

Frederic Gardiner. Ezekiel. In: Charles John Ellicott, ed, An Old Testament commentary for English readers, by various writers. Vol. v. (http://books.google.com/books?id=KqoGAAAAQAAJ) Cassell & Co. 1884.

In his discussion of chapter 36, a prophecy about the mountains of Israel, Gardiner pointed out that the things foretold could only be understood when applied to the better land, which is the kingdom of Christ. The earthly blessings foretold by Ezekiel, Gardiner said, "are the shadow and type by which is set forth the higher spiritual blessing given to the Church." 

Ezekiel 36:11-12
And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.

Gardiner wrote:
 
Will multiply upon you.—The promises of abundant blessing of this, with the previous and following verses, certainly received a partial fulfilment at the time following the return from the exile, and in the subsequent Maccabean period; yet one cannot but feel that the language of promise, if taken only in a literal sense, goes far beyond the historic fulfilment, and hence that these earthly blessings are the shadow and type by which is set forth the higher spiritual blessing given to the Church without stint.

Settle you after your old estates.—This does not mean that particular families are to have again each their own former inheritance—though, doubtless, this was true, as far as circumstances allowed, of the comparatively small number of families who returned— but that they shall in general be settled and prosperous, as of old. And even this promise is eclipsed by the next clause: "I will do better unto you than at your beginnings," which can only be considered as fulfilled in the spiritual blessings, far higher and, better than anything of earth, of the Messianic kingdom.

Ezekiel's prophecy "I will do better unto you than at your beginnings" may be linked to the concept of a "better land" in Hebrews 11:16.

In a review of the whole section Gardiner wrote:

In reviewing this whole prophecy (chaps, xxxv.— xxxvi. 15), it is evident that the time had in view by the prophet was one in which Edom still existed as a nation, and was rejoicing in the fall of Israel. It cannot, therefore, look forward to any literal, but still future, accomplishment, since Edom, as a nation, has long since disappeared; and no future people, occupying the same territory or bearing the same name, could possibly sustain the same historic relations to Israel as are here attributed to Edom. Whatever, therefore, is to be literally understood in the prophecy must have been long ago fulfilled. And this was much. Israel was restored to its land, and there greatly multiplied, so that the country became for ages one of the most fertile and prosperous in Asia. At the same time, the sinfulness of the people, as of old, hindered the fulness of blessing that was within their reach. But a small part of them availed themselves of the opportunity to return to their land; and they who did so suffered themselves so to live that when the crowning blessing of the ages was fulfilled in the coming of the Messiah, the mass of the nation rejected and crucified Him. The blessings promised were fulfilled literally as far as the sinfulness of the people allowed; but inasmuch as these prevented anything like the full realisation of the terms of the prophecy, and as no future realisation of these is possible, on account of the total change of conditions and circumstances, it is plain that under these earthly terms the prophet, like his predecessors, Isaiah and the others, sets forth the glories of the spiritual future, and uses earthly blessings as the types of those better ones which are heavenly.

The disappearance of Edom from the earth thwarts all attempts to interpret the prophecy in a literal way.

Doug

Dr Stephen Sizer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Sizer) is an Anglican minister at Christ Church, Virginia Water, UK. He is the author of several books and articles about the land of Israel, its theological significance, and the Jewish-Palestinian conflict.

In his article Where is the Promised Land? (http://www.cc-vw.org/sermons/promisedland.htm) Sizer wrote:

The inheritance of the saints was ultimately never an 'everlasting' share of territory in Palestine but an eternal place in heaven. Hebrews shows that even Abraham, the Patriarchs and later Hebrew saints looked beyond Canaan to 'another' country where the covenant promises of God would be fulfilled.

In another article, An Alternative Theology of the Holy Land: A Critique of Christian Zionism. (http://www.churchsociety.org/churchman/documents/Cman_113_2_Sizer.pdf) [Churchman. 113/2. 1999.] he wrote:

Christian Zionism errs most profoundly because it fails to appreciate the relationship between the Old and New Covenants and the ways in which the latter completes, fulfils and annuls the former. It is fundamental that Christians read the Scriptures with Christian eyes, and that they interpret the Old Covenant in the light of the New Covenant, not the other way round. In Colossians, for example, Paul uses a typological hermeneutic to interpret the Old Covenant: Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. (Col 2:16-17)

Similarly, the writer to the Hebrews stresses:

The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man. Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already men who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: 'See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.' But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises. (Heb 8:1-6)

The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming-not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. (Heb 10:1)

Under the Old Covenant, revelation from God came often in shadow, image, form and prophecy. In the New Covenant that revelation finds its consummation in reality, substance and fulfilment. The question is not whether the promises of the covenant are to be understood literally or spiritually as Dispensationalists like to stress. It is instead a question of whether they should be understood in terms of Old Covenant shadow or in terms of New Covenant reality. This is the most basic hermeneutical assumption which Christian Zionists consistently fail to acknowledge.

So, for example, in the Old Covenant animals and food are sacrificed anticipating the offering of the body of Christ. A portable tabernacle foreshadows the permanent presence of the Spirit of God indwelling his people. God provides Israel in the desert with manna from heaven, water from a rock and a serpent on a pole. All these images find their fulfilment not in more manna, or water or indeed in a higher pole but in the redemptive work of our Lord Jesus Christ of which the Old Covenant forms were but a shadow. By their very nature the Old Covenant provisions must be seen as shadowy forms rather than substantial realities. The same principle applies to the promises concerning the Land which also serve as revelational shadows, images, types, prophecies, anticipating God's future purposes, not only for one small people, the Jews, but the whole world, revealed fully and finally in Jesus Christ. Hebrews sums this up succinctly: 'In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe' (Heb 1:1-2).

Doug

The better land of Hebrews 11:16 is heavenly, and yet, the saints remain on the earth, which seems to be a paradox. How can people on the earth be in a better land, if it is located in heaven? Perhaps it is not located in heaven, but has a heavenly character.

Hebrews 11:13-16 NKJV
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return.
But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

The meaning of the concept may be understood, and the paradox resolved, when we consider a statement made by Jesus, during his conversation with Nicodemus.

Jesus said,

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus is the one who came down from heaven. Apparently, even while he was speaking to Nicodemus, Jesus was in some way in heaven. Perhaps the meaning of this is that he was in continual contact with his Father, who is in heaven. Although he was talking to Nicodemus, Jesus was in heaven, in the sense that he was in the presence of God, in Spirit.

The meaning of the better land is further clarified, in the following scriptures. Isaiah wrote:

Isaiah 57:15
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

God dwells in heaven, and also with those who are of a contrite and humble spirit. Those who acknowledge God as ruler of all, and are humble before him, are in harmony with their Creator. Isaiah said God will look to those of who are of a contrite heart, and who tremble at his word.

Isaiah 66:1-2
Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

Dwelling in the better land is the place of God's "rest." It has to do with fellowship with God, and with being aware of his presence. Jesus was present with his heavenly Father, while he was speaking to Nicodemus, and throughout the duration of his ministry. And similarly, those who believe in Christ have been raised up, and are in the presence of God, and so they all sit together "in heavenly places."

In the same epistle in which he said believers are raised up together, and sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, the apostle Paul advised Christians to put on the armour of God. In Ephesians 6:12 he speaks of wrestling, not against flesh and blood, but "against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

He specified the nature of the armour that a Christian requires. First was "having your loins girt about with truth." Then, he listed "the breastplate of righteousness," feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace, the shield of faith, the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

This also agrees with the idea that the saints are in the kingdom of God. Paul said that God has "translated" believers into the kingdom of his Son.

Colossians 1:12-14
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.

While Christians sit together, they are each at different levels of understanding. Like children in a family, there are different stages in maturity. And all have different kinds of trials, and gifts, and experience.

There is spiritual darkness, and "spiritual wickedness in high places," because as Revelation 12:3, 4, 7, 8 shows, in the present age, the dragon's influence extends to heaven. And the saints are raised up to sit together while we are imperfect; Paul said this has occurred "Even when we were dead in sins." [Ephesians 2:5]

Doug

I am the living Bread which descends out of heaven.
(Joh 6:51)



And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
(Rev 21:2)

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, "YET ONCE MORE I WILL SHAKE NOT ONLY THE EARTH, BUT ALSO THE HEAVEN." This expression, "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; for our God is a consuming fire.
(Heb 12:22-29)

'Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.
(Mat 6:10)

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
(Eph 2:4-7)

As we ascend in our inner man through the breaking of the outer man, in submission as sons and daughters, heaven pours through us, his "kingdom comes....on earth as it is in heaven". Heaven manifests on earth as God being all in all in us so that the world can see what heaven is. That is why "the gates of Sheol" cannot "prevail against us", because when we are seated in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, the strongman of the house is bound and we, having the keys to the kingdom, can kick in the gates of Sheol and rob the strongman of his possessions, the souls of men. In Jerusalem(earthly Jerusalem) on the day of Pentecost the "kingdom of heaven" came, not in meat nor drink, but in "righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" and as the book of Acts describes, "heavenly Jerusalem" was manifest in their midst- the presence of God fulfilling the prophecy...."I will live among them and walk among them and I shall be their God and they shall be my people".

Heaven is the presence of God, and the accompanying glory of it, having "come down out of heaven" to manifest as heaven on earth among the "called out ones", the ecclesia of Christ. Thus the "gathering of all things into one in Christ" begins among the saints, a preisthood of reconciliation bringing the kingdom of heaven from within their own beings as wineskins and clay pots.

"Lift up ye gates and be lifted up ye everlasting doors, that the king of glory may come in. Who is this king of glory? The Lord strong and mighty in battle. He is the king of glory".

Quote from: Doug on September 11, 2012, 02:08:44 AM
The better land of Hebrews 11:16 is heavenly, and yet, the saints remain on the earth, which seems to be a paradox. How can people on the earth be in a better land, if it is located in heaven? Perhaps it is not located in heaven, but has a heavenly character.

Hebrews 11:13-16 NKJV
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return.
But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

The meaning of the concept may be understood, and the paradox resolved, when we consider a statement made by Jesus, during his conversation with Nicodemus.

Jesus said,

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus is the one who came down from heaven. Apparently, even while he was speaking to Nicodemus, Jesus was in some way in heaven. Perhaps the meaning of this is that he was in continual contact with his Father, who is in heaven. Although he was talking to Nicodemus, Jesus was in heaven, in the sense that he was in the presence of God, in Spirit.

Maybe something I put on tentmaker a while back helps explain "the (three) heaven(s)". . .

http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/thoughts-regarding-heaven/msg42111/#msg42111 (http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/thoughts-regarding-heaven/msg42111/#msg42111)

Very good stuff James!

Mountains and rivers in the better land

Isaiah said in the last days, referring to Judah and Jerusalem, that the mountain of the Lord's house would be raised up, to the top of the mountains, and exulted above the hills.

Isaiah 2:1-2
The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

When we compare this with Ezekiel's prophecy about the river flowing from the house of the Lord, a paradox appears. Any tectonic event that would elevate Jerusalem in a literal sense, would increase the slope in the surrounding area. But in Ezekiel's description, the river in the vicinity of Jerusalem is shown to have a very gentle gradient, comparable to that of a football field, where a minimal slope is needed for drainage. In about half a mile, the depth of the river increases by only about three feet. [Ezek. 47:1-7]

The two prophecies thus seem to contradict each other, if they are viewed literally, but when considered as parables, or metaphors, each having a spiritual meaning, all of the difficulties disappear.

Zechariah described rivers of living water flowing from Jerusalem, and he also said Jerusalem would be raised up, in the same chapter. The rivers of living water are described in Zech. 14:8 "And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be." Two verses later, he says the city will be lifted up. "All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses." [Zech. 14:10]

The idea of Jerusalem being raised up agrees with Isaiah 2:2, but Zechariah is even more specific, giving boundary markers, and he adds that the city will be inhabited, and that the surrounding land will be a plain. None of this makes sense, unless understood spiritually.

Jerusalem was raised up, in a spiritual sense, when Jesus ascended to heaven, and sat down in his Father's throne. This is when it became "Jerusalem which is above" [Gal. 4:26] and "the heavenly Jerusalem." [Heb. 12:22] And Isaiah 2:2, together with Zechariah 14:10, establish the continuity between the Jerusalem of the O.T. prophets, and the church, the heavenly Jerusalem. After Jesus ascended to heaven, the prophecies about Jerusalem apply to the heavenly city, not the earthly one.

And because Jerusalem was raised up in a spiritual sense, and is a spiritual creation, a city prepared by God, made without hands, things said of it have to be interpreted in a spiritual way. For example, the time periods that apply to the heavenly city are not earth days, or earth months, or earth years. The times that apply to the heavenly city are invariably figurative, and not natural.

In prophecy, mountains and rivers are symbolic. Taking the rivers described by Ezekiel and Zechariah literally misses the point of these prophecies. Alva McClain (1888-1968) made this mistake, declaring they were "supernatural." Then he contradicted himself by saying they were not "impossible." He should have said they are "spiritual," not literal. Like many commentators he said they are also symbolic. He wrote:

In addition to these natural results which must follow properly controlled rainfall, there may also be streams continually flowing by miraculous causation, such as the marvelous stream pictured by Ezekiel (47:1-12).  Its issue from the temple, its immense size, the beneficial qualities of its fruit, its perennial flow "in summer and in winter" (Zech. 14:8)--all emphasize the supernatural nature of the stream.  There is nothing at all inherently impossible in such a phenomenon.  Why should anyone stumble at the idea of a beautiful stream springing up at the geographical center of our Lord's blessed Kingdom on earth, with healing in both its waters and the fruit which grows beside it?  Is there anything incredible here, if we remember that the coming King is the One who once turned water into wine and sent the sightless man to wash away his blindness in the waters of Siloam (John 9:11)?  What a visible symbol this will be to remind the nations of the unfailing blessings which will flow from the throne of the Son of David!  And from this shrine none will go away in heartbreaking disappointment because no help has been found.

[Alva McClain. The Greatness of the Kingdom, p. 237].

In John 7:38, Jesus said that rivers of living water will flow from the belly of whoever believes in him. The following verse explains what living waters signify. "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

A high mountain is associated with Jerusalem, in Ezekiel's prophecy describing the measurement of a visionary temple. "In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south." [Ezekiel 40:2] There is no real high mountain there. It is a symbolic or figurative mountain, probably intended to convey the idea that this is a lofty spiritual prophecy. Similarly when John described the holy city he said he was taken in the spirit to a great and high mountain. In reality he remained on Patmos.

Revelation 21:10
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.

These mountains convey the idea of something durable, and permanent, and stabilty, and height, and strength; they are symbols of the promises and revelations of God, and of spiritual benefits for the saints. They are sure, and real, but the mountains of prophecy are not literal mountains.

The idea of a river conveys the idea of continuity, and renewal, and life, and refreshment. As Jesus said, the living waters are symbolic of God's word and his Spirit. Both metaphors are associated with the better land, and with the heavenly Jerusalem.

Both mountains and rivers are a way for God's people. Isaiah 49:11 says the mountains will become a way for the saints; the sermon on the mount also defines a way. Jesus said "narrow is the way which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it" [Matt. 7:14]. David said, "he leadeth me beside the still waters." [Psa. 23:2] In Jeremiah 31:9, Israel is led by the rivers in a straight way; in Revelation 22:1-3, a river of the water of life flows in the street of the holy city.

On the mountains of Israel, God's sheep will find pasture, by the rivers. [Ezek. 34:13]

Mountains and rivers are both mentioned as places for prayer. [Matt. 14:23; Acts 16:13]

In the gospels, a mountain was the place of Jesus' transfiguration, [Matt. 17:2] and the Jordan river was the place where the Spirit descended upon him like a dove.

Joy is connected with both mountains and with a river. Mount Zion is "the joy of the whole earth," [Psa. 48:2] where God will make a feast for all people; [Isa. 25:6] in Isaiah 44:23 the mountains break forth into singing; Psalm 46:4 says "there is a river that makes glad the city of God."

Peace is connected with both mountains and rivers. Psalm 72:3 says "The mountains shall bring peace to the people." Isaiah 66:12 says "I will extend peace to her like a river."

David compared God's righteousness to the great mountains. [Psa. 36:6] Amos wrote, "But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream." [Amos 5:24]

Mountains and rivers are each associated with the other; Joel 3:18 says mountains will drop wine, hills will flow with milk; in Isaiah 30:25 and 41:18, God will make rivers in high places.

Comparing the prophecies about mountains and rivers in the better land supports the idea that they are not meant to be taken literally; they are metaphors, and parables; the mountains represent eternal spiritual promises, and prophecies, and revelations of God, and the rivers represent the Spirit of truth flowing continually from the throne of God, and the gospel going forth from the church in every age. Isaiah said,

Isaiah 40:9
O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!

Prophecies about the rivers in high places and mountains that drop wine suggest a reason why the saints are exhorted to go to the mountains: spiritual rivers flow there, if we understand the higher spiritual meaning in the words of the prophets.

Doug

The prophecy of Ezekiel chapter 34 distinguishes between the mountains of Israel, and the mountains of other lands.

Ezekiel 34:6 says, "My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them."

God's sheep are scattered upon the face of the earth, in tens of thousands of sects and denominations, ministries, with many different beliefs.

The mountains where these sheep wander, are mountains in other lands. I suggest those foreign mountains are metaphorical, and represent beliefs, theories, philosophies, interpretations, that are alien to the "better land," which is foreshadowed by the land promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The desolation and forsaking of the better land was foreshadowed by the people of Israel going into exile, where they were ruled by Gentiles. The land of promise was a type of the knowledge of God, and the people of Israel were removed from it because they had not kept the covenant, and the commandments. Daniel said, in his prayer of confession in Babylon,

Daniel 9
4 And I prayed unto the Lord my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;
5 We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments:
6 Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.

Ezekiel's prophecy says that God searches for his sheep, and will bring them back to their land, the land of Israel, where they will feed upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers. They are brought back one by one to the better land of the saints.

Ezekiel 34
13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.
14 I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.

Just as the sheep in the prophecy are not literal sheep, the mountains of Israel in the prophecy are not literal mountains, but they represent God's blessings, and revelations, and promises to the saints. This was revealed when Jacob blessed his son Joseph. He said: "The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills." [Gen. 49:26]

The mountains, being the highest parts of the promised land, represent divine revelations, and promises of a lofty spiritual nature, which are also eternal, and so Jacob associated them with the "everlasting hills."

At Bethel, where Jacob dreamed of a ladder set up upon the earth and reaching to heaven, and angels ascending and descending on it, God promised to give him the land of Canaan. Jacob anointed the rock which he had used for his pillow, and set it up as a pillar, and called it the house of God. The things he saw and heard in his dream connected the land with God's revelations. In the centuries following, many revelations were given there, and the land promise, and Israel's anticipation of the land, and their taking possession of it under Joshua, and governing the land, and loss of the land, when they went into exile in Assyria and Babylon were the focus of those revelations. The Old Testament was the record of all of God's promises to his people and how they were fulfilled, as well as promises of their ultimate fulfilment in the future.

In the New Testament Jesus alluded to the events at Bethel, in the life of Jacob, and put himself in the place of the land, on which the ladder to heaven was set up, on which the angels ascend and descend. [John 1:47-51]

Ezekiel 35:12 says that blasphemies are spoken about the mountains of Israel. These mountains of Israel are not the literal mountains of Canaan, but the spiritual things that those earthly mountains represent, the promises of God to his saints. These mountains are made desolate, and a people who are unworthy claim to possess them. Ezekiel wrote:

Ezekiel 35
11 Therefore, as I live, saith the Lord God, I will even do according to thine anger, and according to thine envy which thou hast used out of thy hatred against them; and I will make myself known among them, when I have judged thee.
12 And thou shalt know that I am the Lord, and that I have heard all thy blasphemies which thou hast spoken against the mountains of Israel, saying, They are laid desolate, they are given us to consume.
13 Thus with your mouth ye have boasted against me, and have multiplied your words against me: I have heard them.

This prophecy continues in chapter 36.

Ezekiel 36
1 Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord:
2 Thus saith the Lord God; Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession:
3 Therefore prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people:

The phrase "ancient high places" is similar to the phrase used by Jacob in Genesis 49:26, "the utmost bound of the everlasting hills." The prophecy is about God's blessings, and promises, and prophecies, which have been made desolate because they are misunderstood and misinterpreted, and wrongly applied. For example, many commentators assume that the mountains in Ezekiel's prophecies refer to the literal mountains and hills of Canaan, or they represent ethnic Jews. Most do not recognize any symbolic connection between mountains and the blessings of God!

Ezekiel 36:4
Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about;

The mountains that represent God's blessings, promises, and prophecies are a prey, when interpreting prophecy is considered a business, and a commercial enterprise. Flawed interpretations and failed predictions make the subject of bible prophecy an object of derision to unbelievers. But Ezekiel said that this will change.

Ezekiel 36
5 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.
6 Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen:
7 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; I have lifted up mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame.
8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.

The blessings, prophecies and promises of God to his people will be fruitful to the saints, those who are in Christ, not unbelieving ethnic Jews.

The mountains of Israel are also mentioned in the prophecy of Gog and Magog, in Ezekiel 38 and 39.

Ezekiel 38:8
After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

The "land brought back from the sword" in the above verse probably alludes to Eden, where a "flaming sword" was set up to "keep the way of the tree of life." [Genesis 3:24] The "better land" of the saints is often connected with Eden.

The sword represents God's word.

Ezekiel said the invaders come against the mountains of Israel, which represent God's blessings to the saints, and promises, and revelations, and they also come against the prophets of Israel.

Ezekiel 38:17
Thus saith the Lord God; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?

The invaders come against the prophets, because they misinterpret their words.

Ezekiel 38:21
And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.

Ezekiel said the invaders will fall "upon the mountains of Israel." All their flawed interpretations will be destroyed, and discredited.

Ezekiel 39:4
Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

In this interpretation, the invading hordes of Gog and Magog are the same people as those described by John in Revelation 20.

Revelation 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Doug

The land of Canaan was a type and a shadow of better land, to which Christians have come, as taught in the New Testament. [Heb. 11:16; 12:22] Paul said that the experiences of the Israelites recorded in the Old Testament were written for our examples, and for our admonition. Peter said the prophets ministered, not to themselves, but unto us, that is, the saints, or the New Testament church. The prophets, he said, wrote about the gospel, (they "prophesied of the grace that should come unto you") and they wrote by the spirit of Christ which was in them. [1 Peter 1:9-12]

A period of seven years is prominent in prophecy, and in the early history of Israel. Jacob agreed to serve Laban the Syrian seven years for his bride Rachel. [Gen. 29:20] But the time involved actually turned out to be longer than a literal seven years. When the time came for his marriage to Rachel, he was given her sister Leah instead. His labour was to continue for another seven years, and then yet another six, and after this, he returned to the promised land. Jacob came back with not only Rachel, but also her sister Leah, their handmaidens, and all their children. They brought with them a large herd of cattle. At Galeed, several miles east of the Jordan River, Jacob and Laban made a covenant, that neither would pass that place to do any harm to the other. [Gen. 31:45-48, 51-53]

The time involved in the conquest of Canaan under Joshua was seven years.

In Ezekiel's prophecies about Gog and Magog, the time that the people of Israel burn the weapons of the hordes of Gog and Magog for fuel is seven years. [Ezek. 39:9]

In Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy the time when Christ confirms his covenant with the church is one week, [or seven times] which corresponds to, or alludes to the time for which Jacob agreed to serve Laban for Rachel.

In the prophecies of Daniel, great kingdoms are described, but always in their relation to the saints, and the kingdom of God. The metallic image of Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel 2 represents the major human kingdoms throughout all of history, and Babylon is featured in the prophecies of Revelation, where it represents all human society. In Nebuchadnezzar's dream, the head of the image was of fine gold, its breast and arms were of silver, its belly and thighs were of brass, its legs were of iron, and its feet were part of iron and part of clay. This man-like image was replaced by a mountain, that filled the earth. The mountain represents the kingdom of God. There is a continuity in the prophecy, because the prophecy depicts time as progressing vertically from top to bottom. There are no gaps in the image, and there are no gaps in time.

The prophecy of Daniel chapter 2 parallels the prophecy in chapter 7, where the same successive world  governments or empires are depicted as animals. The four beasts correspond to the four metals, gold, silver, brass, and iron, in the prophecy of chapter 2. The head of fine gold in chapter 2 corresponds to the lion in chapter 7. The breast and arms of silver in chapter 2 corresponds to the bear in chapter 7. The belly and thighs of brass in chapter 2 correspond to the leopard with four heads in chapter 7. The legs of iron in chapter 2 correspond to the terrible beast described in chapter 7. The feet, part of iron and part of clay in chapter 2 correspond to the 10 horns of the beast in chapter 7. The stone cut without hands in chapter 2, that became a great mountain, corresponds to the saints and the kingdom of God in chapter 7.

In the prophecy of Daniel 7 another little horn, separate from the ten horns of the fourth beast, makes war with the saints. This is the antichrist spirit, with eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. The  eyes like the eyes of a man represent a human viewpoint, which opposes the divine point of view of the prophets. It continues for a time, times and a half. [Dan. 7:25]  John said that this spirit was already present in the first century. [1 John 4:3]

The time, times and a half in Daniel's prophecies signifies half of seven times, and the swearing angel in Daniel 12:7 showed that it is the last time period. All of the events mentioned in Daniel's prophecies will be finished, when that time period is fulfilled. There is another similar swearing figure depicted in Revelation 10, who declares that "in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." [Rev. 10:7]

The seven times, or one week, of which the time, times and a half is the last portion, is without doubt the final week in the prophecy of Daniel 9. Here, three separate periods are described, which together make seventy weeks. They are 7 weeks, 62 weeks, and 1 week. The Messiah was to appear when the first two of the three were fulfilled, which began the last week, in which he would confirm the covenant with many. His earthly ministry was the first half of the final week. But he was crucified, and buried, and rose again from the grave, and ascended to heaven, to the throne of his Father.

Here, the units of the prophecy change, because earth days, months, and years, based on the period of the earth's rotation, and its orbit around the sun, would not apply to things that are spiritual. God's time does not equal our time. And therefore the time, times and a half when Christ continues to confirm his covenant with his church, is not earthly time, but it is the prophetic symbol for the final half-week, which is the whole age of the church. Thus, there are no gaps in Daniel's time prophecies, and they agree perfectly with the visions of chapters 2 and 7.

The time remaining once the abomination of desolation is set up is given as 1,290 days. [Dan. 12:11] This number represents a symbolic three years and a half, where one year has 13 months, and the rest 12 months, and months are 30 days. Natural months are not exactly 30 days, so this period is symbolic, and not a literal 1,290 days or years.

The time that Christ waits for his church to be completed is 1,335 days. [Dan. 12:12] This number represents a symbolic three years and a half, where one year has 12 months, and the rest 13 months, and months are 30 days. Again, because natural months are not exactly 30 days, this period is symbolic, and not a literal 1,335 days or years.
   
In John's prophecy the holy city is trampled by Gentiles for 42 months. [Rev. 11:2] The duration of the ministry of the two witnesses is 1,260 days. [Rev. 11:3] The time for which the woman in Revelation 12, who represents the church, remains in the wilderness, is stated in two ways, first as 1,260 days, and then as a time, times and a half. [Rev. 12:6, 14] The time when the beast makes war with the saints is 42 months. [Rev. 13:5]

The numbers that represent the whole age of the church, or any portion of it, are symbolic. The little horn, which makes war with the saints, and which has eyes like the eyes of a man representing a human point of view will "think to change times and laws." [Dan. 7:25] These times include the times of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, and the prophecy of the 70 weeks. Those who say that there is a gap in the 70 weeks, are influenced by the "little horn." Those who claim it is 490 literal years, or that the 1,290 days are literal days or literal years, or that the 1,335 days are literal days or literal years, or that the 1,260 days are literal days or literal years, are also influenced by the "little horn," IMO. They fail to consider the necessary change in the nature of the units of time, when it is applied to things in the spiritual world, and the better land of the saints. The church which is being prepared in the present age is the bride of Christ, and the covenant which Christ confirms for one week is a covenant like the one Jacob made, to purchase his bride Rachel.

Doug

In Frederic Gardiner's commentary on Ezekiel 47:1-11, the river flowing from the temple in the vision Ezekiel described is interpreted as symbolic of the spiritual influence of the kingdom of God in the present age. He says, "All history, since the Christian era, has been occupied with the fulfilment of the prophecy." 

Frederic Gardiner. Ezekiel. In: Charles John Ellicott, ed. An Old Testament commentary for English readers. Vol. v (http://books.google.com/books?id=KqoGAAAAQAAJ). 1884. pp. 340-342.

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Ezekiel XLVII.

The first twelve verses of this chapter constitute what is generally known as "the vision of the living waters;" the latter part of the chapter, verses 13—23, more properly belongs with chap, xlviii., and, with that, gives an account of the boundaries of the land, of its distribution among the tribes, and of the building of the holy city.

The ideal character of this vision of the waters is so plain upon its face that little need be said on this point. The stream is represented as issuing from the summit of "a very high mountain" (chap. xl. 2), and as constantly and rapidly increasing its volume, without the accession of tributaries, so that in a little more than a mile it becomes a river no longer fordable. The trees upon its banks, too, are evidently symbolical, and its effect upon the Dead Sea (as already said in the introductory note to chaps, xl.—xlviii.) is such as could not naturally occur. Such imagery is common in prophecy. Joel (chap. iii. 18) says, "All the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the Lord, and shall water the valley of Shittim." Zechariah (chap. xiv. 8), "Living waters shall go out from Jerusalem, half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea;" and finally, the description of the "pure river of water of life" in Rev. xxii. 1—3, is evidently founded upon this passage of Ezekiel. Passages in which water is used as the symbol of the influence of the Spirit are too numerous and familiar to need quotation. (Comp. Isa. xliv. 3; Ezek. xxxvi. 25—27; Zech. xiii. 1, &c.)

Ezekiel, having in the previous chapters described the dwelling of the Lord among His people with characteristic minuteness of detail, now proceeds to set forth the blessings that flow from this presence.

(1) Door of the house.—This is the entrance of the Temple itself; the waters come out from under its threshold, just as in Rev. xxii. 1 they proceed "out of the throne of God and of the Lamb." The prophet, who had just been in the outer court (chap. xlvi. 21, Ac.), is brought in to the door of the house that he may see the waters.

From the right side of the house.—Although the waters issue directly from the threshold which was in the centre of the east front of the Temple, and their general course was due east, it was necessary that they should be deflected a little at the start to the south in order to pass the porch and the altar, as well as both the inner and outer gateways.

(2) Out of the way of the gate northward.— Rather, out by the way of the north gate. The east gate, the direct way, was shut (chap. xliv. 2); the prophet was therefore carried round to the outside of it by the way of the north gate. There he saw the waters on the right, or south, side of the gateway.

(3) Brought me through the waters.—The point from which the measurement began is not distinctly mentioned, but is to be assumed as from their source, the threshold of the house. The prophet is "brought through the waters" to impress upon him a vivid sense of their size and depth, and this is repeated at each 1,000 cubits until the waters become impassable.

(5) A river that could not be passed over.—The whole distance measured is 4,000 cubits, or less than a mile and a half, during which the waters, without external addition, have swollen from a mere streamlet to an impassable river, in direct opposition to the ordinary fact in nature. A large part (1,500 cubits, or half of 3,000 cubits) of this distance must have been within the precincts described in chap. xlii. 16—20, but the prophet takes no notice of this, as the whole is ideal, and the precincts were to set forth one truth, the river another. The point thus far brought out is plainly the increase of the kingdom of God—the same truth illustrated by our Lord in the parable of the mustard seed (Matt. xiii. 31,32), and often declared by the prophets (see Isa. xi. 9; Hab. ii. 14; Dan. ii. 44; vii. 27; &c.). All history, since the Christian era, has been occupied with the fulfilment of the prophecy.

(6) To return to the brink.—The angel, having called the prophet's attention to this marvellous increase, now causes him to return along the bank to observe other things. The word brink in this verse and bank in the next are the same in the original. The prophet does not return to the brink, for he had not left it, but is told to pass along it.

(7) Very many trees.—In the corresponding vision of Rev. xxii. 2 the same thought is symbolised by the "tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits."

(8) Go down into the desert.—The word for country is the same as is used in Josh. xxii. 10, 11, for the borders of the Jordan, and undoubtedly has the same meaning here: the valley of the Jordan, called the Ghor. The word desert is better translated in the margin, plain, and refers to that expansion of the Jordan valley just north of the Dead Sea in which the city of Jericho was situated. So far the course of the river has been due east; now, without any allusion to the Jordan, it apparently takes its place and flows into the sea. Both the situation and the description show that the Dead Sea is intended. By its entrance "the waters of the sea shall be healed," that is, they shall be so changed that, from being incapable of supporting life, they shall become the home of life in all abundance and variety (verses 9, 10).

(9) The rivers.—According to the pointing of the Hebrew text this is the two rivers, as is expressed in the margin. This peculiar form has occasioned some perplexity, especially because in the vision of Zechariah (chap. xiv. 8) the waters are represented as divided, half of them flowing to the Dead Sea and half of them to the Mediterranean. It is plain, however, that but one river is intended here, flowing into the Dead Sea. Possibly there is an allusion in the dual form to the Jordan flowing with it into the sea; but this vision throughout pays so little regard to the natural features of the country that it seems more likely that the dual form is simply used to express the greatness of the river, "a double river." By a division of the word and a slight change in the vowels the expression would become "river of the sea," that is, flowing into the sea.

Shall live.—This is to be understood as a pregnant expression; all kinds of life shall spring into being whithersoever the waters come. The same thing is emphatically repeated at the close of the verse, and in the intermediate clause the same thought is expressed by the " very great multitude of fish."

(10) From En-gedi even unto En-eglaim.—En-gedi, "the fountain of the goat," is a well-known copious spring about midway on the western coast of the Dead Sea. En-eglaim occurs only here, and has not been certainly identified. St. Jerome speaks of "Engallim" as at the junction of the Jordan with the sea, and near this point there is a fountain now known as Ain-el-Feshkhah. Others consider that the dual form of the name indicates "one of the double cities of Moab," thus placing it on the eastern side of the sea, and this seems more probable, since the expression would then be equivalent to "the whole breadth of the sea." Everywhere they shall stretch their nets, and the variety and abundance of the fish shall be as great as in "the great sea," that is, the Mediterranean. This whole verse in regard to the fishermen is a striking illustration of Ezekiel's way of carrying out the most ideal description into detail.

(11) The marshes thereof shall not be healed.—The picture of the life-giving waters would be imperfect without this exception to their effects. The Dead Sea at the southern end is very shallow, and beyond there is an extensive tract of very low land. In the season of the flood of the Jordan this is overflowed to a considerable distance, and as the river subsides, is again left bare and encrusted with salt from the evaporation of the water. This allusion, therefore, shows plainly that the prophet did not have in mind a flowing on of the river through the Arabah, or valley leading from the Dead to the Red Sea, and that the effect of the life-giving waters should cease where the waters themselves ceased to flow; at the same time, in the thing symbolised, it shows that we are not to expect, as the effect of the Gospel, a perfect and universal obedience to its teachings. Man is still left free to hear or forbear, and the world must be expected always to contain its unhealed miry and marshy places.

(12) Be consumed.—Better, fail. The fruit is to be eaten, but shall not fail to grow as it is wanted. These trees with their supernatural virtues are represented as produced by the waters because "they issued out of the sanctuary," thus presenting a most effective image of the life-giving power of those spiritual influences which come from God upon men.

It has been objected to the spiritual interpretation of this vision, that under it nothing can be made of the fishermen of verse 10, and that, therefore, the whole is to be considered as a glorification of nature in the future Palestine. But this is to forget that in every figure and parable there are, and must be, details necessary to the figure which have nothing answering to them in the thing signified, and that it is the habit of Ezekiel to carry out such details very far. In this case, the mention of the fishermen greatly heightens the imagery of the life-giving power of the waters; while, if the whole were to be literally understood, they would really have no place, because there would be no such fishermen in the supposed glorified condition of the land.

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Doug

hi doug

'  No man can cross it...is the same as tell no man..cause it is a spiritual life-giving river......the river known as death/Jordan baptised into his death...

       is now life giving through the free gift of the water of life.  the fishermen on the otherside are the angelic spiritual angels that catch you in nets

   the kingdom of heaven is like a net that brought up both good and bad fish.......

  he gave me a vision of this when I had my heart trouble and asked if it was my time to leave.....i was on a highway and a bridge crossed the river...

   but the bridge was invisible....it is the permanent entering into the eternal spiritual realm

   it is a passing over from the realm of this flesh and blood dwelling into the eternal...I was stopped from crossing over and went to the bank

  and began cooking in a pot[camp type expierence at rivers edge]  Zechariah 14;8 on that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem...

   v 2 on that day holy to the lLord will be inscribed  on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the Lord's house will be like the sacred bowls

  in front of the altar.  every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots

  qand cook in them. and on that day there will no longer be a Caananite in the house of the Lord almighty

I think that the fish in Ezekiel's river are men, and the ministers of the Gospel are those casting nets. Jesus was probably thinking of this prophecy when he called Andrew and Peter. and James and John, to be his disciples.

Mark 1
4 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
16 Now as he walked by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew his brother casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.
17 And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.
18 And straightway they forsook their nets, and followed him.
19 And when he had gone a little farther thence, he saw James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, who also were in the ship mending their nets.
20 And straightway he called them: and they left their father Zebedee in the ship with the hired servants, and went after him.

I find the statement by Gardiner, that some have claimed that under a spiritual interpretation of the river, "nothing can be made of the fishermen of verse 10," a bit odd. For example, Clarke's Commentary on the Bible states:

The fishers shall stand upon it - On the above plan of interpretation these must mean -

1. The apostles of our Lord Jesus.

2. The preachers of the everlasting Gospel. See Matthew 4:19.

From En-gedi - At the southern extremity of the Dead Sea.

Unto En-eglaim - At the northern extremity of the same.

Their fish shall be according to their kinds - Every kind of fish, and the fish all excellent of their kinds. All nations, and kindreds, and people shall be called by the Gospel; it shall not be an excluding system like that of Judaism, for its Author tasted death for every man.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible says:

These "fishers" are the apostles of Christ, who, of fishermen, were made fishers of men by him; to whom he gave a call, and a commission, and gifts qualifying them to preach the Gospel; whereby they caught men, and brought them to Christ; and so were the instruments of saving them, even of great numbers, both in Judea, and in the Gentile world; of which some instances of their fishing, after their call to the ministry, were emblematical; Matthew 4:18, likewise all other ministers of the Gospel are here meant, especially those that will be in the latter day; ...   
They shall be a place to spread forth nets; that is, the above said places shall be made use of for that purpose; which design the Gospel, and the ministry of it, compared to a net, for its meanness in the esteem of the world; and yet is a piece of curious artifice and wisdom, even the manifold wisdom of God, and is contrived for the gathering in of sinners to Christ; and, though it may be like a net "per accidens", the means of troubling the world, and drawing out the corruptions of the men of it; yet its principal design, and the use that is made of it, is to draw souls out of the depths of sin unto the grace of Christ; see Matthew 13:47, the spreading and casting of nets design the preaching of the Gospel, and the opening and explaining the doctrines of it, which are shut up and hidden to men; and to do which requires wisdom and skill, strength, diligence, and patience, and is done at a venture; and sometimes is cast where fish are, and sometimes not; but here, and at this time, with great success.


Doug

 i agree..but also the children of the resurrection are like the angels.....the kingdom of heaven come to earth..thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven

  thus the tree of life being on both sides of the river.....   

The following are comments by David Dickson (c. 1583-1663) on the metaphorical river of Psalm 46:4-5 in his commentary.

David Dickson. A brief explication of the first fifty Psalms (http://archive.org/details/briefexp00dick)

Psalm 46
4. There is a river, the streams whereof shall make glad the city of God: the Holy place of the Tabernacles of the most High.
5. God is in the midst of her: she shall not be moved: God shall help her, and that right early.

The Kirk doth look upon the Lord's word and ordinances joyned with the blessing of his Spirit among them, as upon a sufficient consolation against whatsoever trouble can be imagined. Whence learn,

1. Although there be many particular persons in the Lord's Kirk militant, and many particular Congregations, as there were many habitations in Jerusalem, and many tabernacles at the time of the solemne feast, when all the Lord's people were gathered together to the keeping thereof; yet are they all one Kirk universal, one Kingdome of God; one City compact together in the union of one sealed Covenant, one true faith and Spirit; The plurality of the Tabernacles of God doth make but one City of God here.

2. Albeit trouble without comfort may fall on men who know not God; yet to believers within the Kirk there can no trouble come, wherein the true Citizens may not finde consolation and joy to uphold them against all causes of sorrow; There is a river, the streams whereof make glad the City of God.

3. The consolations which God furnisheth to all who will make use of them within the Kirk, are not like the consolations which the world can afford, which are in all respects inefficient to overcome trouble;  but the consolations of God are abundant, constantly running, ready at hand, and able to make a man a conquerour over trouble effectually, and to make him rejoyce in the Lord in the midst of trouble; for this is imported in the similitude of refreshing water; There is a river the streams whereof shall make glad the City of God.

4. God will never forsake his people who seek after him, but where they are following his ordinances in any measure of sincerity, there will he be; God is in the midst of her.

5. As the consolation of the Kirk, so also the liability of the Kirk, and continuance of it from generation to generation, dependeth upon God's settled residence therein; God is in the midst of her, she shall not be moved.

6. God's presence among his people will not exempt them from trouble, but from perdition in trouble: he will not exempt the bush from burning, but from being consumed, For God shall help her.

7. Albeit the Lord do not appear at the point of time when we would, yet shall he come and help in time of need most timeously, God shall help her, and that right early.

Doug

The following quote is from a commentary compiled mainly from quotes selected from various previous commentators. It is the section on the vision of the river of the temple waters, Ezekiel 47:1-12. From: George Barlow, David Gilkison Watt, Thomas Henry Leale. A homiletic commentary on the Book of the prophet Ezekiel (http://books.google.ca/books?id=7PUCAAAAQAAJ). Richard D. Dickinson, London. 1890. pp. 484-487.

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Vers. 1-12. "The effect of the establishment of the mountain of the house of the Lord on the top of mountains, or of Christianity generally, is a great outpouring of the Holy Spirit signified by these waters. As they were not to be seen before the issue of the man with the measuring-line, they are to accompany the preaching of the Word by the ministers of Christ, and the operations of the Spirit shall become the more admirable and profound as they proceed in their spread over all the world, as is signified by their increasing depth. By them shall the evil influences of the world be healed and everlasting life conveyed to all that will receive them. Still, some shall harden even then under its influence, and become more rank and nauseous in sin than before, as is signified by the unhealed bays."—M'Farlan.

— "Issuing as this stream does from the threshold of the Temple, from the very foot of the throne of God, it must be, like all the special manifestations of God to His Church, itself of a spiritual nature, and only in its effects productive of outward material good. It is the efflux of that infinite fulness of life and blessing which is treasured up in His spiritual Temple, and continually pours itself forth as the operations of His grace proceed among men. It is emphatically a river of life. Wherever it is experienced, the barren soil of nature fructifies, the dead live again, the soul is replenished with joy and gladness. Instead of spending itself, like the streams of nature, as it advances through the moral deserts of the world, it multiplies and grows, until corruption is changed into incorruption, mortality is swallowed up of life, and the earth, which God had cursed for man's sin, is transformed into the inheritance of the saints in light."—Fairbairn.

Vers. 1-5. "Ezekiel's Temple, with its ritual, ministers, and congregation, symbolises the presence of Jehovah in the midst of a loyal people. The waters are the blessings which flow from this source to animate and refresh all the inhabitants of the earth. The deepening of the waters in their course shows the continual deepening of spiritual life and multiplication of spiritual blessings in the growth of the Kingdom of God." —Speaker's Commentary.

— "In the Kingdom of God things proceed from little to great: in the kingdoms of the world often from great to little. Satan begins his things with lofty impetuosity, but finally they end in nothing and everything comes to disgrace."—Hafenreffer.

Ver. 1, 2. The Progress of Truth. "1. As it is Christ who makes known the things of the Temple, so He makes known some at one time, some at another. 2. The waters of the Gospel, the gifts and graces of the Spirit, flow from Zion. 3. These spiritual waters, although they flow from Zion, Christ is the fountain and original of them. 4. Sanctuary waters are not common but choice mercies; they are right-side mercies, south-side blessings."—Greenhill.

Ver. 1. The Gradualness of Divine Revelation—1. Accommodated to our imperfect faculties. 2. Suited to our varying circumstances. 3. Educative in its process. 4. Enables us more clearly to grasp the meaning and grandeur of the truths unfolded.

Vers. 3-9. "The Atheistic Idea. It is affirmed that Christianity is waning because of the advancement of science. The business of the scientist is with matter. There is something back of matter — a force beneath life. No painter, there is no picture: no God, there is no nature. What doctrine has science demolished? 1. Has science done away with the Incarnation? The scientist knows that the sum of the history of nature is made up by the entrances at epochs of higher types of being. Are not all these appearances prophecies of the grand entrance of the Higher Being? 2. Has science done away with the Atonement? The law everywhere manifest is the dependence of one creature on another. 3. Has science done away with sin? Sin is as much a fact, a phenomenon of human life, as the circulation of the blood. 4. Where is Christianity waning? In Germany? Compare this century with the last. A short time ago thousands of students flocked to the great universities to hear the doctrines of Fichte, Hegel, Kant, and the Rationalists of Tubingen. Now scarcely a class of twenty can be collected for that purpose. In France? Compare this century with the times when a deluge of blood followed the blasphemies of Rousseau, D'Alembert, Diderot, and Voltaire. In England? Compare the Britain of to-day with the Britain of yesterday, when Chubb, Hume, and Bolingbroke could sneer at the story of the Cross—when the clergy were immoral. In America? Compare it with the time when the students in our colleges called themselves by the names of leading French atheists. Where will you find such a college to-day? 5. What is the motive power of science? Compare the ages of faith and the ages of scepticism and see the results. How high has science lifted the shadows that rest on the human heart? It is only this blessed religion, this radiance from the throne of God, that can lighten the gloom."—Homiletic Monthly.

Vers. 3-5. The Temple-River emblematic of Religion in the different stages of Human Life. 1. Childhood. "The waters were to the ankles" (ver. 3). Religion may be shallow and yet genuine. 2. Youth. "The waters were to the knees" (ver. 4). Still exposed to much of the world and its attractions, yet standing in the truth. 3. Manhood. "The waters were to the loins" (ver. 4). In the midway of life's struggle, but deepening in piety. 4. Old age. "Waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over" (ver. 5). A more prolonged and profound study of the truth revealing its unfathomable vastness and prompting the strongest veteran-swimmer to exclaim, "Oh, the depth of the riches!" (Rom. xi. 33).

— "Holy Scripture and its revelations also resemble these sacred waters, in that whosoever searches into them will find some parts intelligible to all who sincerely desire to know them. Other parts require a deeper investigation; others a deeper still; and others are beyond our depth, and in respect to these, we can only adore the infinitude of God's unsearchable wisdom, and humbly wait for His own time of revealing their now hidden meaning. The growth of grace in the individual soul, similarly, is a progressive work, beginning with but a small stream from the fountain-head, but sure to go on increasing until it is expanded into the boundless and unfathomable river of heavenly pleasures (Ps. xxxvi. 8)."—Fausset.

— "This vision may be applied—1. To the gradual discoveries of the plan of salvation. (1.) In the patriarchal ages. (2.) In the giving of the Law. (3.) In the ministry of John the Baptist. (4.) In the full manifestation of Christ by the Holy Ghost. 2. To the growth of a believer in the grace and knowledge of God. (1.) The seed of the Kingdom. (2.) The blade from that seed. (3.) The ear out of that blade. (4.) The full corn in that ear. 3. To the discoveries a penitent believer receives of the mercy of God in his salvation. (1.) A little child, born of God, he begins to taste and feed on the heavenly food. (2.) He grows up and increases in stature and strength, and becomes a young man. (3.) He becomes matured in the Divine lite, and has his spiritual senses exercised so as to become a father in Christ. 4. To the progress of Christianity. (1.) A few poor fishermen. (2.) Afterwards many Jews. (3.) Then the Gentiles of Asia Minor and Greece. (4.) The continent and isles of Europe. (5.) Now spreading through Africa, Asia, and America, at present these waters are no longer a river, but an immense sea; and the Gospel-fishers are daily bringing multitudes of souls to God."—A. Clarke.

— The Spread of the Gospel. "1. Christ is the architect and measurer of all things belonging to His Church. 2. The motion of Sanctuary waters is not accidental, but according to Divine appointment. 3. The doctrine of the Gospel is never rightly understood unless taught by Christ. 4. The doctrine of the Gospel, the conversion of sinners, and the graces of the Spirit proceed gradually. 5. The Gospel has depths and mysteries no human understanding can comprehend. 6. Sanctuary waters afford comfort to the saints in their deepest distresses."—Greenhill.

Ver. 5. "There was no such natural course of waters in the place, nor is it imaginable that in three miles or thereabouts the waters should so rise; but it is emblematical, hath a deep mysterious meaning, and includes spiritual things and their wonderful growth from small beginnings, and these from the Temple."—Pool.

— "This marks the rich and overflowing grace which God designs to shed down on the earth in the Gospel age and in the glory of the latter us"; and it apprises believers that they should not remain in a loitering state, trampling the shallow waters of grace, but go on to a deeper baptism of the Spirit till they can swim in the abounding streams."—Sutcliffe.

— "Representing the fathomless depth of the Scriptures, which is such that we may well do by it as the Romans did by a lake, the depth whereof they could not sound, and dedicated it to Victory: also the abundance of spiritual graces in the Church, the love of Christ which passeth all knowledge, and the over-abounding goodness of God. Speaking of the subject, Chrysostom said: 'I am like a man digging in a deep spring; I stand here, and the water rises upon me; I stand there, and still the water rise upon me. It is indeed a sea that has neither bank nor bottom.'"—Trapp.

Ver. 6. "Hast thou seen this?" A Suggestive Question—1. As asked to the well-informed. He knows more than I do, or why the question? 2. As addressed to the anxious inquirer. This may meet my case. 3. As addressed to the thoughtless and indifferent. There is a world of knowledge hitherto closed to him. 4. Indicates there is much we miss for want of a keener insight into truth.

Vers. 7-10. Fishers in Gospel Waters. "1. The waters of the Gospel have their own course. 2. That people without the Gospel are like the Dead Sea (ver. 8). 3. The waters of the Sanctuary have curing and quickening virtue (vers. 8, 9). 4. The preacher of the Gospel are fishers (ver. 10). 5. These Gospel-fishers catch fish of all sorts (ver. 10)."—Greenhill.

Vers. 8, 11. The Power of the Gospel—1 Seen in its penetrating the most unlikely places. "The desert—the Dead Sea" (ver. 8). 2. Efficacious in giving life and healing to all who accept it. "The waters shall be healed" (ver. 8). 3. Inefficacious where it is resisted and rejected. "The miry places and marshes shall be given to salt" (ver. 11).

Ver. 8. "God's Sanctuary a wellspring of life for the Dead Sea of the world (Ps. lxxxvii. 7). God's thoughts of peace over the abysses of the world's wretchedness. In other cases a clear and wholesome stream which flows into a muddy and putrid lake becomes corrupt: it is otherwise with the Gospel, which brings recovery and health to the earthly-minded heart. It is a power of God, but man will not let the power work."—Lange.

Ver. 11. "Those whom the Gospel waters of life do not reach, through their own indolence and carnality, shall be given over to everlasting barrenness; nor can any more awful punishment be imagined than that the sinner should be given up to the unrestricted and everlasting workings of his own sin, bitterness, and filthiness."—Fausset.

— The Hebrew language often expresses irremediable barrenness and unprofitableness by being given up to salt, salt being equivalent to barrenness in that language. When Abimelech destroyed Shechem he sowed the ground whereon it stood with salt, to denote that it should never be cultivated or inhabited again (Judges ix. 45).

— "Unsound, rotten parts, neither sea nor yet sound ground, an emblem of hypocrites. Low land, sopped with the overflowings of unhealthful waters, neither fit to breed fish as the sea, nor bear trees as the land."—Pool.

Vers. 9-12. Spiritual Influence—1. Vitalises all it touches (ver. 9). 2. The active principle of fertility and plenty (vers. 9, 10, 12). 3. Cannot be resisted without disaster (ver. 11). 4. Is ever flowing from the Divine Temple. "Because they issued out of the sanctuary" (ver. 12). 5. Is both the food and medicine of the soul. "The fruit shall be for meat, and the leaf for medicine" (ver. 12).

Ver. 10. "The ministers of the Church are compared to fishers because of the contempt with which they are regarded by the rich and powerful of this world; because of their labour by day and night, in heat and cold; because of the fruitlessness of their labour at times—'We have caught nothing;' because of the dangers they incur in stormy weather; because of their confidence, which, as in the case of the husbandman, must rest on God; because of the various kinds of implements they use. They rescue souls from the abyss."—Starck.

Vers. 11, 12. Moral Barrenness and Fruitfulness. "1. Those places and persons to which the waters of the Sanctuary come, or coming do not heal, are designed to barrenness and destruction (ver. 11). 2. True Christians are fruitful (ver. 12). 3. The cause of fruitfulness is the doctrine and grace of the Gospel (ver. 12). 4. The holy examples of true saints are medicinal (ver. 12)."—Greenhill.

Ver. 12. Never-ending Spring. "The text a promise and picture of a neverfading spring. Goodness and spiritual beauty are eternal. 1. The everlasting youthfulness of a Christly soul. 2. The everlasting fruitfulness of a Christly soul. 3. The explanation of the glorious phenomenon is in this— 'Because their waters issued out of the sanctuary.' A sacred place, a pure sanctuary, a holy fountain where the soul may cleanse itself from the dust and stains of the world. Fruit for meat and leaves for medicine. A healthy inner life ensures a fruitful outer life. A Christly soul is always young and beautiful."—Homilelic Monthly.

— "The blessed growth close by the river of life. Evergreen leaves, yet not leaves merely, but also fruit! Thus it is with life from God's Sanctuary."—Lange.

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Doug

greatly enjoyed and was blessed reading these posts Doug.  but just as ministers in the flesh by the spirit..fish us out on this side..unto the kingdom of

  heaven.  so,too angels fish us out of death in the flesh to eternal life in the spirit/heaven John 20;12.two angels in white seated where Jesus body had been

   there are always ministering angels..accompanying  a resurrection...having access to these that stand by..ever ready to minister to those who inherit eternal life.

  be it life more abundantly now..or us being away from the body.

The Temple-River of Ezekiel 47:1-12 implies that there is a land through which it flows, and which is healed because of it. What is the land? Is it the same as the better land of Hebrews 11:16?

The story of Moses striking the rock in the wilderness which brought forth water has a profound significance, and the theme of water and rivers as symbols of the Spirit flows like a river throughout both the Old and New Testaments. The Jerusalem temple was built above the site of a spring, called Gihon, which was also the name of one of the rivers in Eden. Solomon was crowned king there. [1 Kings 1:32-35]

Fountains and rivers are connected with God's throne, and the temple. David wrote:

Psalm 36:7-9
How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God! therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings.
They shall be abundantly satisfied with the fatness of thy house; and thou shalt make them drink of the river of thy pleasures.
For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light.

Isaiah said Jerusalem would be a place of "broad rivers and streams," that obviously could not exist with the present topography there, and would be even less plausible, if the city was raised up in a physical way as described in Isaiah 2:2 and in Zechariah 14:10.

Isaiah 33:20-22
Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken.
But there the glorious LORD will be unto us a place of broad rivers and streams; wherein shall go no galley with oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby.

Jerusalem was raised up, when Jesus ascended to heaven, and to his Father's throne, after his resurrection, and he fulfilled Isaiah's prophecy.

Joel said, "a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the Lord, and shall water the valley of Shittim." [Joel 3:18] The valley of Shittim is on the east of the Jordan River. The prophecy seems absurd if it is taken literally. How could a river from the temple cross the Dead Sea and flow uphill to Shittim? Understood spiritually, the prophecy makes sense, as it alludes to the events there before Israel entered the promised land. Shittim represents the place where the Israelites were seduced because of the prophet Balaam. This is referred to in the message to one of the churches in Revelation, and given a spiritual significance.

Revelation 2:14
But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

The spiritual waters from the true temple, the church, are a cure to the sin of spiritual fornication which Paul alludes to in 2 Cor. 11:2-4. See also James 4:4.

The following is a discussion of the word proseucha which is used in the New Testament, referring to a place of prayer near a river. The discussion includes some information about the association of rivers and water with places of worship in New Testament times, from: John McClintock, James Strong. Cyclopaedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, Volume 8 (http://books.google.ca/books?id=mgsXAAAAIAAJ). Harper, 1883. pp. 664-665.

[begin quote]

Proseucha (προσευχῇ) a word signifying "prayer" and always so translated in the A. V. It is, however, applied, per meton., to a place of prayer—a place where assemblies for prayer were held, whether a building or not. In this sense some hold it to be mentioned in Luke vi, 12, where it is said that our Saviour went up into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in the proseucha of God (ἐν τῇ προσευχῇ τοῦ θεοῦ), which can very well bear the sense our translators have put upon it —"in prayer to God." Yet Whitby and others infer, from the use of parallel phrases, such as "the mount of God," " the bread of God," " the altar of God," "the lamp of God," etc., which were all things consecrated or appropriated to the service of God, that this phrase might here signify "an oratory of God," or a place that was devoted to his service, especially for prayer. In this sense the word must certainly be understood in Acts xvi. 13, where we are informed that Paul and his companions, on the Sabbath day, went out of the city, by the river side, οὗ ἐνομίζομεν προσευχὴν εἶναι, which the A. V. renders " where prayer was wont to be made." But the Syriac here has, "because there was perceived to be a house of prayer;" and the Arabic, "a certain place which was supposed to be a place of prayer." In both these versions due stress is laid upon οὗ ἐνομίζομεν, where there was taken, or supposed to be —or where, according to received custom, there was, or where there was allowed by law—a prostucha, oratory or chapel; and where, therefore, they expected to meet an assembly of people. Bos contends (Exercit. Philol.. ad loc.), however, that the word ἐνομίζομεν is redundant, and that the passage ought simply to be, "where there was a proseucha;" but in this he is ably opposed by Eisner (Obsere. Sacr.: ad loc,). See Philippi.

That there really were such places of devotion among the Jews is unquestionable. They were mostly outside those towns in which there were no synagogues, because the laws or their administrators would not admit any. This was, perhaps, particularly the case in Roman cities and colonies (and Philippi, where this circumstance occurred, was a colony); for Juvenal (Sat. iii, 296) speaks of proseuchæ, not synagogues, at Rome. They appear to have been usually situated near a river or the seashore, for the convenience of ablution (Josephus, Ant. xiv, 10, 23). Josephus repeatedly mentions proseuchæ in his Life, and speaks of the people being gathered into the proseuchæ (44, 46). Sometimes the proseucha was a large building, as that at Tiberias (l. c. 54), so that the name was sometimes applied even to synagogues (Vitringa, Synag. Vet. p. 119). Proseuchæ are frequently mentioned as buildings by Philo, particularly in his oration against Flaccus, where he complains that the proseuchæ of the Jews were pulled down, and that no place was left them in which to worship God and pray for Caesar (Philo, in Flacc. in Op. p. 752). But, for the most part, the proseuchæ appear to have been places in the open air, in a grove, or in shrubberies, or even under a tree, although always, as we may presume, near water, for the convenience of those ablutions which with the Jews always preceded prayer, as, indeed, they did among the pagans, and as they do among the Moslems at the present day. The usage of the latter exhibit something answering to the Jewish proseucha; in the shape of small oratories, with a niche indicating the direction of Mecca, which is often seen in Moslem countries by the side of spring, a reservoir, or a large water-jar, which is daily replenished for the use of travellers (Whitby, De Dieu, Wetstein, Kuinol, on Acts xvi, 13; Jennings, Jewish Antiquities, p. 379-382; Prideaux, Connection, ii, 556).—Kitto.

"Questions have been raised," says the late Dr. M'Farlan, of Renfrew, "as to the origin of these, and their being or not being the same with the synagogue. Philo and Josephus certainly speak of them and the synagogues as if they were substantially one. The former expressly declares that they were places of instruction. 'The places dedicated to devotion,' says he, 'and which are commonly called proseuchæ, what are they but schools in which prudence, fortitude, temperance, righteousness, piety, holiness, and every virtue are taught—everything necessary for the discharge of duty, whether human or divine.' As the writer's observations were chiefly confined to the Jews of Alexandria and other parts of Egypt, this description will chiefly apply to these. But there is no doubt, on the other hand, that where synagogues existed, and especially in Judea, they did to some extent differ. We are therefore very much disposed to concur in the opinion that the oratory was substantially and in effect a synagogue. But the latter was the more perfect form, and required, for its erection and support, special means. There was in every synagogue a local court, deriving its authority, at, least in Judea, from the Sanhedrim; and there were office-bearers to be maintained; whereas in the oratory there does not seem to have been any very fixed or necessary form of procedure. These might, for aught that appears, have been all or substantially all which belonged to the synagogue, or it might be little more than what we would call a prayer-meeting. Hence, perhaps, the reason of the prevalence of the one—the synagogue—in Judæa, and of the other in Egypt and other countries not subject to Jewish laws."

It is highly probable that proseuchae existed long before synagogues. "It is remarkable," continues Dr. M'Farlan, "that the only places where Daniel is said to have been favored with visions, during the day, were by the sides of rivers (Dan. viii. 2, 16; also x, 4; xii, 5, 7; and ix, 21), the very places where oratories were wont to be. Ezekiel also received his commission by one of the rivers of Babylon, and when 'among the captives' of Israel (Ezek. i, 1). And he afterwards mentions his having received visions in the same circumstances (iii, 15, 16). And Ezra, also, when leading back Israel to the land of their fathers, proclaimed and observed a fast with them by the way; and, as if to keep up the same tender associations, he assembled them by the river Ahava, where they remained three days (Ezra viii, 15, 32). But the very finest illustration which occurs is that contained in the 137th Psalm — 'By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down; yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion. We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof. For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion' (1-3). The people of Israel were accustomed, in after-times, to make choice of the banks of rivers for their oratories, and this point of agreement is one of the grounds on which we are proceeding. But it will hold equally good, whether the Israelitish captives followed, in this, the example of their fathers, or whether, as is more probable, their circumstances in Babylon led to this choice. It is not unlikely that this led to a similar choice in aftertimes, and particularly in foreign countries. The poor captives of Babylon had perhaps no other covering or even enclosure than the willows of the brook; and thus may they have been driven, when seeking to worship the God of their fathers, into the woody margins of Babylon's many rivers. Meeting in such places, as they had been accustomed to do in the oratories of their native land, it is not wonderful that many tender associations should be renewed."

After the return of the Jews from the Babylonian captivity, synagogue worship was much enlarged and improved, while oratories gradually diminished in number and importance. Hence, in later times, oratories were chiefly found in countries beyond the land of Israel. Under the Roman government synagogues were discountenanced, but oratories, or places of meeting for devotional exercises, were generally permitted all over the empire. Dr. Lardner thinks that the synagogue mentioned in Acts vi. 9 was really an oratory; and Josephus speaks of a very large one in the city of Tiberias. But it was chiefly in foreign parts that proseuchæ in later times were found. Josephus, in detailing the decree passed in favor of the Jews at Halicarnassus, says, "We have decreed that as many men and women of the Jews as are willing so to do may celebrate their Sabbaths and perform their holy offices according to the Jewish laws; and may make their proseuchæ at the sea-side, according to the custom of their forefathers." —Gardner, Faiths of all Nations, s. v. See Riddle, Christian Antiquities (see Index); Stillingfleet, Works, vol. i; and the monographs cited by Volbeding, Index Programmatum, p. 76. See Chapel; Oratory.

[/quote]

Doug

Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being(holy of holies/throne of God) will flow rivers of living water.'" But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
(Joh 7:37-39)


Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
(Rev 22:1-5)

Eastern tribes return home  Joshua 22  then Joshua summoned the Reubenites the Gadites and the half tribe of

Manasseh and said to them. You have done all that  Moses the  servant of the Lord commanded.

  and you have obeyed me in everything I commanded.  For a long time now,to this very day,you

  have not  desserted your brothers.  But have carried out the mission the Lord your God gave you.

   Now that the Lord your God has given your brothers rest as He promised. Return to your homes

  that Moses the servant of the Lord gave you on the other side of the Jordan..

   when Joshua sent them home he blessed them,saying."Return to your homes with your great wealth

  with large herds of livestock,with silver gold bronze and iron[from broken image of babylon?]

  and a great quantity of clothing-and divide with your brothers the plunder from your enemies

 they built an altar east of the Jordan those 21/2 tribes as a wittness...later they were accused of rebellion

  over it.....what do you think the spiritual significance is as to the promised land..and tol on both sides of the Jordan

Rivers bring the water from places where the rain falls, or from high snowy mountains, to places that normally receive very little rain. The prophetic rivers are metaphors. Rain represents God's word, and the prophetic rivers are streams of God's revelations, themes of knowledge that extend throughout the Bible. Isaiah said,

Isaiah 55:10-11
For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

The rivers depict themes of the gospel, and they are parables, that illustrate how God's promises work out through the ages.

The teachings of the apostles in the New Testament are but larger streams and rivers of the principles and concepts revealed in the Old Testament, especially the promise given to Abraham, which Paul calls the gospel, "In thee shall all nations be blessed." [Gal. 3:8] This brief statement, but a stream in Genesis, grows in significance, with further revelations, and eventually, in the New Testament, the promises made to the patriarchs and their progeny are extended to people of all nations, who become the seed of Abraham by faith.

Ezekiel's prophecy in Ezek. 47:1-11 describes a river which originates at the temple and flows through the wilderness, causing trees to flourish along its course. Fish are plentiful in it. Men cast nets along its banks. When the river reaches the sea, the waters of the sea are healed.

If the course of the river is time, the place where it empties into the sea, and heals the waters of the sea, represents the ulimate effect of the gospel, and a time when the knowledge of God fills the earth, as the waters cover the sea. [Isa. 11:9; Hab. 2:14]

In this view, Ezekiel's prophecy indicates that the benefits of the healing waters are available now, and in all ages before that ultimate healing event occurs, as the river heals the wilderness areas where it flows, and causes trees to flourish along its banks. But there are marshy and miry places which are not healed. They are given to salt. We need to avoid being stuck in such places.

The wilderness or desert is a prominent theme in prophecy, and it represents the spiritual environment of Christians, who have "escaped the corruption that is in the world." [2 Pet. 1:4] The bondage of sin is represented by Egypt, and Sodom. [Rev. 11:8] The sojourn of the Israelites in the wilderness before they came to the promised land is a metaphor of the church's present state. [1 Cor. 10:1-11; 2 Pet. 2:1]

The world's social systems, governments, philosophies, and religions are represented by the great city Babylon, in Revelation 18:1-4. Verse 4 says, "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

Coming out of Babylon, which represents the world, implies going into a wilderness or desert. This concept is prominent in Revelation 12, where the church is represented by a woman in heaven, who is clothed with the sun, the sun being a symbol for the gospel, who also flees to the wilderness in verse 6, and in verse 14. These are complementary, because being in heaven in a spiritual sense involves one's separation from sin and the corruption of the world. Thus the faithful are described as "virgins" in Rev. 14:4, not because they lack sexual experience, but because they are not joined to the world spiritually and emotionally, but are joined to Christ.

In each of the two verses where the woman flees to the wilderness she has a place prepared by God, and is nourished there. The place prepared for her by God represents the spiritual environment in which Christians dwell in all ages of the church. Like as the Israelites camped in many places in the wilderness, the church has persevered through various spiritual and cultural environments, over the centuries, and today exists in all nations.

Jesus said to his disciples, "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." [John 14:2-3]

The "place" prepared for the woman in Rev. 12:6 and Rev. 12:14 is no doubt the same as the "place" Jesus prepares for the saints in John 14, which is called a wilderness, as it is separate and distinct from the world. "For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." [Heb. 13:14]

The woman is threatened by a flood of water which the serpent casts out of his mouth, to carry her away in the torrent.

Revelation 12:15-16
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Pareus identified the floods from the serpent's mouth with heresies. He wrote: "For, as the doctrine of the Gospel proceeding out of the mouth of God is compared to streams of water, which none are able to resist, as Christ saith; 'He that believeth on me, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water:' so the heresies coming out of the dragon's mouth, what are they but as a violent vomit or floods to swallow up the church?"

[Apocalypse, chap, xii., p. 278. Cited in: Augustus Clissold, The spiritual exposition of the Apocalypse, Volume 3 (http://books.google.ca/books?id=4VRGAAAAYAAJ). 1851.]

G. K. Beale, professor of New Testament and Biblical Theology at Westminster Theological Seminary, commented on the significance of the serpent's flood, and identified it with false teachings and similar influences that threaten the church. He wrote:

Therefore, OT and Jewish use of the flood waters metaphor and the use of mouth metaphors in the Apocalypse indicate that the image of the flood proceeding from the serpent's mouth portrays his attempt to destroy the church by deception and false teaching (see further below). V 15 presents the devil continuing to attempt to "deceive" the church, as he does "the whole inhabited earth," in keeping with his intrinsic trait (so 12:9, and as demonstrated in Matt. 24:24; Luke 22:31; John 13:2; 2 Cor. 2:11; 11:3, 13-15; 1 Tim. 2:14; Jub. 1:20; 1 En. 69:4). V 9 traced the first expression of this trait to Eden by calling the devil "that ancient Serpent...the one who deceives." This is picked up again in v 15 by the repeated reference to the devil as "the serpent." This name emphasizes the activity of deception here and further confirms that deception is the figurative focus of the picture of the river spewed forth by the serpent. Just as the serpent deceived the first woman with words, so he attempts to deceive the latter-day woman with a flood of words. Satanic agents--false teachers, compromisers, and demons--infiltrate the church to deceive her and contribute to her demise (cf. 2:14-16, 20-22; 3:15-17; cf. Rom. 16:17-20; 1 Tim. 4:1; 5:15; 2 Tim. 2:23-26). Chs. 2-3 have revealed that the churches to which John was writing had already begun to experience the devil's flood of deception (2:2, 14, 20), false accusations (2:9; 3:9), temptations, and persecution (2:10, 13). It is beyond coincidence that wherever chs. 2-3 mention these problems, the devil is mentioned as having his "synagogue" (2:9; 3:9), "throne" (2:13), or "deep things" (2:24) in those cities. The remainder of the book after ch. 12 will also focus on the problem of Satan's persecution and deception carried out by his agents, the beast (13:14; 19:20) and the Babylonian harlot (18:23; cf. also 13:11-17; 16:13; cf. generally chs. 13, 17-18).

[G. K. Beale. The Book of Revelation. New International Greek Testament Commentary. Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. 1998.]

Many commentaries provide similar interpretations of the flood, but there is little consensus on what is meant by the earth opening her mouth and swallowing up the flood. Beale noted that this image alludes to the hosts of Pharaoh who drowned in the Red Sea at the time of the Exodus, and to the flood that threatens the city and the sanctuary in Dan. 9:26. Also, the earth opened its mouth, and swallowed up the familes of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram who challenged the authority of Moses. [Exod. 15:12; Num. 16:12-14; Deut. 11:5-6; Psa. 106:17]

The literalist approach says that all the prophecies about the land, the mountains, and rivers refer to the literal Canaan, literal mountains, and literal rivers, and so that kind of interpretation obscures the spiritual significance of these figures, like clouds and mists that obscure the peaks of the mountains. Typically, the literalists deny that the promises in scripture, such as the healing waters of the river from the temple, apply during the present age, and they say it is for a future millennium, or to the after-life. They deny that possessing the promised land, and possessing the mountains of Israel, are promises that apply to those who are in Christ now. Instead, they say that all these promises are literal, and apply to ethnic Jews. IMO, their interpretations involve "dumbing down" prophecy, and contribute to the "flood" that the serpent spews from his mouth in order to carry away the woman.

Perhaps the earth opening its mouth and swallowing up the flood is the land, [Gk. ge] the promised land, which represents the spiritual things promised to the saints, including understanding prophecy. Jesus said the Spirit would guide his disciples to all truth. "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." [John 16:13]

The land that swallows up the serpent's flood is the better land, which is the spiritual place to which the Spirit of Christ guides us. It is a metaphorical wilderness, one that prophecy shows will flourish and blossom. "The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose." [Isa. 35:1] "Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert." [Isa. 35:6] "I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water." [Isa. 41:18]

Doug

Quote from: sheila on September 21, 2012, 05:41:27 PM
they built an altar east of the Jordan those 21/2 tribes as a wittness...later they were accused of rebellion

  over it.....what do you think the spiritual significance is as to the promised land..and tol on both sides of the Jordan

Sometimes the good we once did in obedience to the voice of the Lord becomes an idol and we put the memory of it ahead of "Today, if you hear His voice harden not your hearts".  Then, the good that brought us into the land becomes the evil that leads us into captivity.

This altar probably became as a high place.

We sometimes set the place of our accomplishments and revelations above Jerusalem, the joy of the whole earth, the dwelling place of the soles of His feet.

"If I forget you O Jerusalem may my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth and my right hand lose its skill."

I just read a scripture about the righteousness of the righteous one will not be remembered in the day he turns to unrighteousness.  However,

   they were not disciplened over it and a plea for it as a wittness only between them was heeded.......heart motive...the law covenant and how it is

  fulfilled in the promised seed/Christ......or an altar of rebellion against the acceptance of Christ..at the altar on the other side of the Jordan.






.

Isaiah wrote:

Isaiah 40:3-5
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

How are mountains made low? The mountains in this prophecy are not the literal, earthly mountains, but they are symbols of the promises and blessings of God to his saints, which are spiritual. The mountains were prominent parts of the promised land, and the highest parts of it, and so they represent the blessings Jacob received, in the blessing he gave to Joseph. [Gen. 49:26]  See this file (http://tcc.customer.sentex.ca/dload/MP.pdf) for a full discussion.

In prophecy, several mountains are spoken of as particularly high. Ezekiel spoke of Israel as "mine holy mountain, in the mountain of the height of Israel," in Ezekiel 17:23, 20:40. He said, when he was brought to Jerusalem in vision to measure the temple, "In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south." [Ezekiel 40:2]

This is similar to John's vision of the heavenly Jerusalem. He also invoked a high mountain.

Revelation 21:9-10
And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Neither of these are literal mountains. When Jesus was tempted, he was taken up to a high mountain. Again, not a literal one.

Luke 4:5
And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

The mountains have a spiritual significance. And in Isaiah's prophecy that mountains would be "made low," the mountains this applies to also have spiritual meaning. No literal mountains were made low, as a result of John the Baptist's preaching. No literal mountains were made low, because of the preaching of Jesus. No literal mountains were made low, because of the preaching of the apostles. But they did make a spiritual highway in the wilderness, for people to find their way to God. The New Testament is that highway, that has led people to salvation for centuries. This highway is the gospel.

What is it that makes mountains low? One example is taking spiritual promises meant for the church, and "dumbing down" those promises to make them apply to ethnic Jews, and the earthly Jerusalem. This is degrading to the word of God. It limits the scope of those promises, and ignores their spiritual significance.

This "dumbing down" approach to prophecy appeals to carnal minds. Paul said, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." [1 Cor. 2:14]

Natural minds cannot grasp spiritual things. The spiritual things seem foolish to them. And so those who want to sell their books to a large number of people, typically prefer a "dumbing down" approach to prophecy. I suggest this also fulfils Isaiah's prophecy, "every mountain and hill shall be made low," as those mountains and hills are symbols of God's promises and revelations. And, who can be surprised, that it works? These false teachers succeed in selling many books, and make lots of money! But their judgment is coming. Peter wrote:

2 Peter 2:1-3
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

The whole chapter is about the judgment of the false teachers, and no doubt it includes those who practice a "dumbing down" approach to prophecy, which has been one of the ways Isaiah's prophecy is fulfilled: "every mountain and hill shall be made low."

Consider Jerusalem in prophecy. Hebrews 12:22-24 says:

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Everyone who believes in Christ has come to the heavenly Jerusalem. It is God's "holy mountain." Jesus called it "the city of the great King." So, why would some imagine that the prophecies about Jerusalem and her future glory, apply to the earthly city? This degrades those prophecies, and makes them small, and makes them apply to an ethnic group and a religion which denies Jesus is the Christ, and Lord of all, whereas those promises and prophecies apply to a spiritual nation, consisting of people from every land, race, and nation.

Isaiah's prophecy about every mountain and hill being made low has come to pass. Those who misinterpret prophecy, who practice a "dumbing down" approach to interpretation, claiming to have a "literal" view, have made those prophecies low, and brought them into reproach, and a derision in the world. IMO.

Doug

SIGNS IN THE HEAVENS..SIGNS IN THE EARTH

   SIGNS IN THE EARTH/HEAVENS OF END OF AGE MATT 24......AT THAT TIME THE SIGN OF THE SON

  OF MAN WILL APPEAR IN THE SKY...THEY WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS

  WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY.........

   REVELATION OF CHRIST AND HIS APPEARING TO THOSE WHO WAIT FOR HIM....

  LOOK HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS AND EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM

  THOSE WHO ARE WISE[VIRGINS] SHALL SHINE LIKE THE BRIGHTNESS OF THE HEAVENS..

  AND THOSE WHO LEAD MANY TO RIGHTEOUSNESS LIKE THE STARS FOR EVER AND EVER

  NONE OF THE WICKED WILL UNDERSTAND[FOOLISH VIRGINS]

  DO NOT SEAL UP THE WORDS OF THE PROPHECY OF THIS BOOK BECAUSE THE TIME IS NEAR

  LET HIM WHO DOES WRONG CONTINUE TO DO WRONG LET HIM WHO IS VILE CONTINUE TO

  BE VILE, LET HIM WHO DOES RIGHT CONTINUE TO DO RIGHT AND LET HIM WHO IS HOLY

  CONTINUE TO BE HOLY

  OUTSIDE ARE THE DOGS,THOSE WHO PRACTICE MAJIC ARTS THE SEXUALLY IMMORAL[JEZEBEL]

  THE MURDERERS IDOLATORS AND THOSE WHO LOVE A LIE

Quote from: Doug on October 06, 2012, 06:35:23 PM


Isaiah's prophecy about every mountain and hill being made low has come to pass. Those who misinterpret prophecy, who practice a "dumbing down" approach to interpretation, claiming to have a "literal" view, have made those prophecies low, and brought them into reproach, and a derision in the world. IMO.

Doug

Doug, please do not take this in an offensive way, but Preterism, RePlacement Theology, or whatever else you want to call your sermons, these are "a derision in the world" today.

 AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH...THERE IS NO LITERAL BOAT!!  BUT THERE IS AN ARK SEEN IN THE HEAVENS

   NOW,WE KNOW THE ARK IS A RESERVOIR OF THE WORD OF GOD/HIDDEN MANNA ALSO IN THERE

  CHRIST AS HIGH PREIST AND WORD OF GOD WAS THIS ARK ON EARTH.......

   ARCH[K] ANGELS TRUMPET JUDGEMENTS OF GOD/CHRIST...ARCH[K] ANGELS ARE LIKE

  THE RAINBOW[REIGNBOW] OF CHRIST AND ENCIRCLE THE THRONE/CHRIST IN HEAVEN...

   THIS TOO, IS THE REVELATION OF CHRIST...AS PART OF THE HEAVENLY HOSTS THEY SERVE

  JESUS IN HEAVEN[LORD OF HEAVEN AND EARTH] AND MINISTER TO THOSE WHO ARE TO INHERIT

   I SAW ANOTHER ANGEL COMING DOWN FROM HEAVEN..HE HAD GREAT AUTHORITY AND

  THE EARTH WAS ILLUMINATED BY HIS SPLENDOR..WITH A MIGHTY VOICE HE SHOUTED...

  FALLEN FALLEN IS BABYLON THE GREAT[FOR YOU WHO WONDER WHEN THE FALLING AWAY OCCURRED]

SHE HAS BECOME A HOME FOR DEMONS[DOCTRINES OF]

  THEN I HEARD ANOTHER VOICE IN HEAVEN SAY   'COME OUT OF HER MY POPLE"

  I BELIEVE MOST HERE HAVE HEARD THAT VOICE

LISTEN THEN TO WHAT THE PARABLE OF THE SOWER MEANS......

  WHEN ANYONE HEARS THE MESSAGE ABOUT THE KINGDOM AND DOES NOT UNDERSTAND IT..

  THE EVIL ONE COMES AND SNATCHES AWAY WHAT WAS IN HIS HEART[EVIL CONTRAST TO MAN/CHILD

  SNATCHED UP TO THRONE]  THIS IS THE SEED SOWN ALONG THE PATH


   THE ONE WHO RECEIVED THE SEED THAT FELL ON ROCKY PLACES AT ONCE RECEIVES IT WITH JOY

   BUT SINCE HE HAS NO ROOT HE LASTS ONLY A SHORT TIME. WHEN TROUBLE OR PERSECUTION

COMES BECAUSE OF THE WORD HE QUICKLY FALLS AWAY.


  THE ONE WHO RECEIVED THE SEED THAT FELL AMONG THE THORNS IS THE MAN WHO HEARS THE

WORD..BUT THE WORRIES OF THIS LIFE AND THE DECEITFULNESS OF RICHES,CHOKE IT

  MAKING IT UNFRUITFUL.


  BUT THE ONE WHO RECEIVED THE SEED THAT FELL ON GOOD SOIL IS THE MAN THAT HEARS

  THE WORD AND UNDERSTANDS IT. HE PRODUCES A CROP YEILDING 100,60 OR 30 TIMES

  WHAT WAS SOWN

The land of Israel used to be barren land, but now it is a fruitful land filled with all sorts of agriculture.

The land has recently found gas and oil sand shales deposits that match Saudi Arabia.

They have giant vegtables growing there.

A fighting fit military with advanced technology that surpasses all its neighbours. some of its technology such as the anti missile system is something usa does not posses.

In prophecy, landforms such as mountains, and rivers, and natural phenomena such as clouds, rain, and trees, etc., are symbols that are used to represent spiritual things. The Spirit of God is often represented by water. In Zechariah 14:8 the gospel going forth from the church is represented by the figure of rivers of living water flowing from Jerusalem. Some dispensationalists, however, have obscured the significance of this prophecy by claiming it refers to literal rivers that will flow from the earthly Jerusalem in the Millennium. This is a "dumbing down" of prophecy, and a "wooden literalism," that works against the gospel.

Zechariah's prophecy about the rivers of living waters can only be understood if the Jerusalem referred to is the heavenly one. The living waters are the Spirit and the truth of the gospel that flow from the church, which is the Jerusalem above, of which Jesus is the temple. [Gal. 4:24-26, Rev. 21:22]

The apostle Peter wrote of the false teachers, "These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever." [2 Peter 2:17]

In contrast to clouds, Christ is represented by a rock, or a mountain. Jacob called the pillow stone which he anointed, after his dream at Bethel, God's house. "And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it. ... And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee." [Gen. 28:18, 22]

Deuteronomy 32:4 says: "He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he." [See also Deuteronomy 32:18; 1 Samuel 2:2; 2 Samuel 22:32; Psalm 18:2, 31; 42:9; 78:35; 94:22]

Literalism is discredited by the scriptures that say God is a rock.

Psalm 118:22, "The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner" is quoted several times in the New Testament, in Matthew 21:41; Mark 12:10; Luke 20:17; Acts 4:11; 1 Peter 2:6-7.

Isaiah wrote:

Isaiah 28:16
Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Christ is the foundation stone. Alluding to this, Paul said, "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." [1 Cor. 3:11]

Christ's kingdom is the stone that smote the metallic image in the dream of Nebuchadnezzar, which Daniel interpreted as representing the successive world kingdoms. [Daniel 2:35] The stone "became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth."

Zechariah wrote: "And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it." [Zech. 12:3] Here, the "burdensome stone" is the same one that is mentioned in Daniel 2:35. It is the kingdom of Christ, which was raised up when Jesus ascended to heaven, after he rose from the grave, as foretold in Isaiah 2:2. That is when Jerusalem became the heavenly city. Belief in dispensationalism, however, blinds people to this great truth.

Jesus said, in the sermon on the mount, "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock." [Matt. 7:24] He is represented by a rock, and his words are also a rock. He is the Word.

When Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, Jesus said this was revealed to him by God, and said that this truth was a "rock" upon which he would build his church. "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." [Matt. 16:18]

The theories of John N. Darby, however, undermine the truth that Christ reigns upon the throne of David, over the twelve tribes of Israel. It is claimed by some that his kingdom was "postponed" because Jews did not believe in him. But the fact is those Jews who did not believe were cut off from Israel, and the promises. They are no longer Israel. Paul said, "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." [Rom. 9:6]

Those who did not believe in Christ are called branches broken off from their tree. But dispensationalism tries to thwart these fundamental gospel truths, and says, ethnic Jews still have a right to possess the land of Canaan. They do not believe what Peter taught in Acts 3:22-24.

Acts 3:22-24
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

Dispensationalism denies that all the prophets spoke of "these days." They claim much of prophecy applies to a future seven year tribulation, after the church is "raptured" up to heaven!

Dispensationalism is promoted by those Peter called "clouds that are carried with a tempest." It contrasts with the "rock" of God's word, and the "rock" which is Jesus Christ. Paul wrote of the Israelites in the wilderness, "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." [1 Cor. 10:4]

Paul described the church as a temple built upon the prophets and apostles. He wrote: "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone." [Eph. 2:19-20] This scripture is one of many that are fatal to dispensationalism, which tries to separate the prophets and saints of ancient Israel from the New Testament church.

Just as Christ is called a rock, the church, the heavenly Jerusalem is also described as a rock, a "stone most precious," in Revelation.

Revelation 21:10-11
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal.

Doug

...and what is the accepting of them back in...but life from the dead...............

   the desert blosoming.    I think the sign in the earth/Jerusalem..is likened to the salvation of all

  men.........for God makes His sun to shine on the wicked and the righteous...... those blinded to

  the Glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ..for a time....will live..even though they die..

     a shadow of the Heavenly City on earth...........


   and just as the camp of the Holy city is surrounded by Gog's crowd[salvation of all]  so too...the sign in the earth

  of God accepting back in those formerly rejected...is surrounded by those in opposition..

Christ's kingdom is the stone that smote the metallic image in the dream of Nebuchadnezzar, which Daniel interpreted as representing the successive world kingdoms. [Daniel 2:35] The stone "became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth."

Zechariah wrote: "And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it." [Zech. 12:3] Here, the "burdensome stone" is the same one that is mentioned in Daniel 2:35. It is the kingdom of Christ, which was raised up when Jesus ascended to heaven, after he rose from the grave, as foretold in Isaiah 2:2. That is when Jerusalem became the heavenly city. Belief in dispensationalism, however, blinds people to this great truth.

Doug


The stone exists at the same time as these kings. The preterist cannot explain who these 10 toes are, despite the benefit of hindsight/history.

A dispensation believes these 10 kings are future and the stone also.
The great mountain that fills the earth is Christs millenium rule of peace, for the whole Earth. With no competing empires of antichrist powers.

Quote from: thinktank on October 08, 2012, 11:15:26 PM
Christ's kingdom is the stone that smote the metallic image in the dream of Nebuchadnezzar, which Daniel interpreted as representing the successive world kingdoms. [Daniel 2:35] The stone "became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth."

Zechariah wrote: "And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it." [Zech. 12:3] Here, the "burdensome stone" is the same one that is mentioned in Daniel 2:35. It is the kingdom of Christ, which was raised up when Jesus ascended to heaven, after he rose from the grave, as foretold in Isaiah 2:2. That is when Jerusalem became the heavenly city. Belief in dispensationalism, however, blinds people to this great truth.

Doug


The stone exists at the same time as these kings. The preterist cannot explain who these 10 toes are, despite the benefit of hindsight/history.

A dispensation believes these 10 kings are future and the stone also.
The great mountain that fills the earth is Christs millenium rule of peace, for the whole Earth. With no competing empires of antichrist powers.

Daniel did not say that the image has ten toes. He did not say that its toes represent individual kings. Also, he said nothing about the image having knees, fingers, eyes, ears or a nose. Why add things to what God revealed? In this case is not necessary to identify ten particular kings, as the prophecy does not mention them.

Theories and interpretations such as dispensationalism are like winds, blowing one way, and then another; the words of scripture are like solid rock. Daniel's prophecy is confirmed by the history of the world from Daniel's time to now. The rock cut out without hands is Christ, and the city he is preparing is the "mountain." [Psa. 147:2] In Isaiah 2:2, the "mountain of the Lord's house" is "established in the top of the mountains" and "exalted above the hills." This happened, when Jesus rose from the grave, and ascended to the throne of his Father. His kingdom, Daniel said, "shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever." [Dan. 2:44]

The saints who are included in the heavenly Jerusalem are "circumcised," Paul said, with "the circumcision made without hands."

Colossians 2:10-12
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Doug

The problem with dispensationalism vs preterism and vice versa is that both typically claim full knowledge of things Paul and John and Jesus(doh!) said they did not know. Jesus did not know the day or the hour, but it was 70 AD? Of curse we know that some major prophecy WAS fulfilled in &70 AD but why go beyond what was written. Then we have dispensationalists of many varied sorts and flavors walking around the word cordoning off truth from this time and that and these people and those....it is all so tiring an so "sounding of gong and cymbals crashing". I have seen no spiritual power or evidence of "restoration manifestation" in ANY OF THEM. Just men devoid of truth wrangling about words to the deficit of the hearers.

Trying to digest meat when the milk is already curdled in their glasses because THEY WILL NOT DRINK IT AND HAVE NO TASTE FOR IT.

For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.
(Heb 5:12-14)

meat is about discernment of spirits

Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
(Jas 3:13-18)

But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
(2Ti 2:23-26)

It would be so much better if the categorizations we heed could be dropped, because they don't mean anything really, they are MISDIRECTION. I know preterists who have an open mind and reasonable approach to discussing grey areas between the poles, but pure preterism as I have seen it is a slippery slope built on huge assumptions and exceptions to the written word. I know literalists who also have an ear to here what the Spirit is saying in the types and figures of scripture, but I know many who really think there is a building coming down out of the sky, a giant woman among the stars who will give birth and grow wings, I mean WHERE DO YOU DRAW THAT LINE LOL

However, I don't know any dispensationalists who have a clue. HAHAHAHAH Just kidding. No. Really. Dispensationalism is a singularly destructive approach to the scriptures as it often renders the word unable to weigh on the issues they have cordoned off into some special category. But then again even a measure of dispensational thinking is reasonable when we talk about the law and some similar issues where the new covenant has transcended the old, creating a dispensational exception to portions of old testament scripture.

Yet, at some point, there will be a (corporate)mature man, all come unto a unity in the faith(by grace and an outpouring of the Spirit surely LOL), grown unto full stature, unto the measure of the fulness of the son of God- NO LONGER AS A CHILD TOSEED TO AND FRO BY EVERY WIND OF DOCTRINE BUT SPEAKING THE TRUTH IN LOVE, EDIFYING THE BODY IN LOVE, GROWING UP IN ALL ASPECTS INTO THE HEAD, EVEN JESUS. Wow, let's all try that one on for size and see how it fits LOLOL

One of the differences between meat and milk is that chewing is necessary for eating meat, but not for milk. Infants lack teeth and the ability to break up chunks of solid food. But adults can handle solid food. The analogy with scripture is that mental "chewing" is needed for some types of spiritual food, while other things do not require mental "chewing," but can be easily understood, and swallowed "as is." But the things that Hebrews calls "strong meat" are for those who are spiritually mature. They are couched in prophetic language, which requires interpretation. They cannot be understood, unless properly interpreted. Those who take these prophecies in a literal sense become misguided, and deluded.

The Dispensationalists say that they take all prophecy literally, unless doing so makes no sense. But they are selective about what things to take literally, and what to interpret. And they disagree amongst themselves on many issues. Many examples can be provided, but the reality is, there is no scripture that says we are required to take prophecy literally. On the other hand, many scriptures indicate that prophecy must be interpreted. There are many examples in both the Old and New Testaments of prophecies and visions and dreams being interpreted. Some interpretations seem surprising, such as the interpretations Joseph gave of the dreams of the baker and the butler when he was in prison. However, his interpretations came to pass.

A basic passage in scripture that I believe teaches that prophecy must always be interpreted is Isaiah 28:9-11. "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people."

Again, milk and solid food are contrasted, as these represent two kinds of nourishment. One who is "weaned from the milk" has reached the stage of maturity, that he can handle solid food, that requires chewing. And "drawn from the breasts" implies he can learn things without a human teacher or guide.

"Another tongue," implies that interpretation is required. "Stammering lips" indicate that individual prophecies and revelations are incomplete, and cannot be understood in isolation from previous revelations, and the whole of scripture. It may take centuries for the complete revelation on a particular subject to be revealed. The Old Testament is incomplete; it is completed and fulfilled in the New. "Precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little" teaches that to find the meaning of prophecy, diligent searching and study is required. A superficial, shallow approach won't work. Revelation is cumulative; symbols have to be understood from previous revelations. Interpretations, not based upon scripture, are invalid. Peter said, "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." [2 Peter 1:20]

When Jacob blessed his son Joseph, he said his blessings extended "unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills." [Genesis 49:26] This alludes to the height and durability of mountains, suggesting his blessings were spiritual, and eternal. Mountains are high, and endure for long periods of time; thus they suggest high and lofty ideas, and revelations of God, who says that his thoughts are higher than those of man. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." [Isaiah 55:9]

David said, "Thy righteousness is like the great mountains; thy judgments are a great deep." Here, mountains represent God's righteousness, while a "great deep," or a valley, represents God's judgments. Paul said, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." [Rom. 1:16-17] The righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel, and David said God's righteousness resembles the great mountains. The great mountains are thus connected with the promises of the gospel, contained in the promise to Abraham, that in his seed all nations will be blessed.

Mountains also represent prophecies, and covenants; for example the mountain where Jesus gave his Sermon on the Mount, and the Mount of Olives, and Mount Sinai. Mountains that are displaced from their positions in Revelation 6:14 may represent flawed interpretations of the prophecies of scripture, and improper understanding of God's promises. Hills represent revelations of a less lofty nature. The prophecy does not necessarily mean mountains are literally moved around upon the earth's surface, and all islands disappear.

In Zechariah 14:4 the Mount of Olives represents the Olivet Discourse that Jesus gave to his disciples, when he was on that mountain. The Mount of Olives becoming cleaved in the midst, and the two halves moving apart in opposite directions, aptly portrays the theories of preterism and dispensationalism. They misinterpret the Olivet Discourse. One theory says that prophecy was all fulfilled in the past, and the other says that it applies to Jews in a future seven year tribulation. Zechariah said we should flee to the valley between the two halves. It is a figurative valley, and it  represents the present age of the church.

Isaiah wrote:

Isaiah 40:3-5
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

In Isaiah's prophecy, rough places being made plain represent scriptures that are difficult to understand being explained. Crooked places that are made straight, means errors in doctrine will be set right. All of this assumes that the land in the prophecy is the "better land," the spiritual inheritance of the saints. The truth is the "promised land" of the saints.

Both natural and spiritual rivers are the subject of prophecy. The Jordan River [Psalm 114:3], the Euphrates [Revelation 9:14; 16:12], and the Nile [Genesis 15:18] are all natural, real rivers, though some of these are referred to symbolically and figuratively in scripture. Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah and Joel said rivers will flow from Jerusalem and from the temple, that must be figurative. David said, "There is a river, the streams whereof shall make glad the city of God, the holy place of the tabernacles of the most High." [Psalm 46:4]

Joel said the mountains will drop wine, and the hills will flow with milk. [Joel 3:18] Clearly the mountains and hills he referred to are not literal ones, but I suggest they represent promises in the scriptures that apply to the church, one of which is the promise of Jesus, that his Spirit will guide the church into all truth.

Streams of living water flow from Jerusalem in Zechariah 14:8, and similarly a river flows out from the temple in Ezekiel 47:7-9, and in Joel 3:18. Christians have traditionally understood this to represent the Spirit of God and the Gospel going forth from the Church.

Ezekiel said the Dead Sea will be healed by the river that flows from the temple. [Ezekiel 47:8] Joel said that the fountain from the house of the Lord will water the valley of Shittim. This valley lies east of the Jordan; for a river from Jerusalem to reach that area, it must somehow flow across the Dead Sea, and the Jordan River. It therefore cannot be a natural river, but it is a figure of the healing effect of the Spirit and the gospel, which heals spiritual plagues.

What merit is there in saying that the prophecies about the promised land must be taken as literal? It often leads to absurd conclusions, for example in Zechariah 14:4-5, it means people would flee towards the site of a major earthquake, which would be a rather foolish thing to do. The scripture itself shows that land has a spiritual meaning, and is metaphorical. Both Zechariah and Jesus encouraged the saints to "flee to the mountains," which are symbolic of the promises of God, and his righteousness. Isaiah said, "When the enemy comes in like a flood, The Spirit of the LORD will lift up a standard against him." [Isa. 59:19]

Doug

Amen,very edifying,brothers....

    there is one thing that comes to mind...and that is the words of eternal life in the gospel...

   these words are spirit and truth...........[back 2000 years ago and today!!]

   HEAVEN AND EARTH WILL PASS AWAY....BUT MY WORDS WILL NEVER PASS AWAY....

       On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,east of Jerusalem...

   and the Mount of OLIVES WILL BE SPLIT IN TWO FROM EAST TO WEST FORMING A GREAT VALLEY

   FOR IT WILL EXTEND TO AZEL.

   YOU WILL FLEE AS YOU FLED FROM THE EARTHQUAKE IN THE DAYS OF UZZIAH KING OF JUDAH

  THEN THE LORD MY GOD WILL COME AND ALL THE HOLY ONES WITH HIM

   ON THAT DAY THERE WILL BE NO LIGHT NOR COLD OR FROST..IT WILL BE A UNIQUE DAY

   WITHOUT DAYTIME OR NIGHTIMEknown only to the Lord[no one knows that day or hour]

. WHEN EVENING COMES THERE WILL BE LIGHT

   on that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem..half to the eastern sea and half to the western

  in summer and in winter

...........BUT JERUSALEM WILL BE RAISED UP

   this is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem.

        their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets

     and their tongues will rot in their mouths...

   rot=corrupted fleshly interpretations dissolved.

Meat does require chewing. It is the Spirit that gives us teeth.

7 No, we declare God's wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:

"What no eye has seen,
    what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived"—
    the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person's thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

"Who has known the mind of the Lord
    so as to instruct him?"
But we have the mind of Christ.


Maturity is measured by the love of Christ within us and the degree of deliverance we hav received from self indulgence. As Paul later says to the Corinthians, if I have insight to all the deepest mysteries but have not love I am nothing.

This is why I teach that the CENTER OF THE GOSPEL IS ALWAYS THE DIVINE NATURE OF CHRIST. This is clear enough in the word and is the last step in milk before one may move on to meat. Christ and Him crucified. If I Be Lifted Up. In the beginning was the LOGOS and the LOGOS WAS GOD.

Heb 1:1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.

When interpreting and chewing and sharing the "mid-rash"(group chew :o) with the brethren is is also clear as Paul said, "We speak a wisdom among the mature, the hidden wisdom"

These things are hidden from all those who cannot stay "in the Spirit" and "in the love of Christ" because they are things that are only fruitful when handled in humility and spoken in love

Those who cannot do that get left behind, but they don't kno it, as they revolve around smaller and smaller hair splits and mind-numbing divisions.

Eph 4:15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

Growing Up

13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18 Peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness.

The failure to understand that the foundational truth is that we must seek unity and speak the truth in love in order to "edify" one another rather than "conquer" opposing viewpoints shows the immaturity of the disciples involved

They have misplaced the deeper truths and are thus unfit for the hidden wisdom. It is like a man trying to fit through the eye of a needle. He may see through the needle, if he holds it close enough to his eye, glimpses of glory. BUT IN ORDER TO ENTER IN HE MUST BECOME SMALL ENOUGH TO GO THROUGH THE EYE OF THE NEEDLE.

PHil. 2:1 Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:6 Who, being in very nature God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself    by becoming obedient to death—
        even death on a cross!

May the grace of God be upon us all.

Perhaps "having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind" is what prophecy is all about. Ezekiel 34 depicts Christ as searching for his sheep that are scattered upon the face of the earth, and bringing them back to feed upon the mountains of Israel. The sheep in the prophecy are not literal sheep, and neither are the mountains literal mountains. Rather, the mountains of Israel are symbols of revelations, prophecies and spiritual promises to the church. The sheep are identified as men in the prophecy. "And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord God." [Ezek. 34:31]

Jesus identified himself as the shepherd of the sheep. "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep." [John 10:11-13]

One of the most contentious issues in prophecy has been understanding the prophetic time periods, which are important, but widely misunderstood. While there are many interpretations that tend to scatter and separate believers from one another, wouldn't an interpretation tending to unify, and bring together the sheep who are scattered, be welcome?

There are two main camps which are wide apart on the time to which most prophecy applies. These are preterism and dispensationalism. But the middle way, which applies most prophecy to the whole church age, rather than to the first century, or to an alleged future seven year tribulation, after the church has been raptured to heaven, tends to reconcile people from both camps.

When we consider the introductory verses in the Olivet Discourse, is there anything about them that supports the preterist claim, that Jesus was speaking of events local to Jerusalem, in the first century? Or did he mention anything that supports the claim of dispensationalism, that he was speaking of events local to Jerusalem, in a future seven year tribulation? I think not. The things Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24:4-14, many deceivers, [vs. 4-5] wars and rumours of wars, nation rising against nation, kingdom against kingdom, famines, pestilences, earthquakes in divers places, [vs. 6] the saints hated of all nations, [vs. 9] many will be offended, [vs. 10] false prophets who deceive many, [vs. 11] and the gospel preached in all the world, are all events that apply to the whole church age, without exception. They are each global in scope, and not limited to the first century, or to a future seven year tribulation. They are not things that are local to the earthly Jerusalem. This strongly supports the conclusion that the things Jesus described in his Olivet Discourse should be understood as applying to the present age of the church, rather than to events at Jerusalem in the first century, or to Jews in a future seven year tribulation.

Signs such as "earthquakes in diverse places" would make no sense, if confined to first century Judea. The same applies to "nation shall rise against nation;" "ye shall be hated of all nations," and "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations." These are events that by nature, cannot be restricted to Judea or Jerusalem, a fact which discredits the preterist interpretation. Jesus' statement in Matt. 24:34, "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" must be understood in the light of the resurrection of Jesus. He remains alive, and continues to represent his generation, so it has not passed away. It is a unique generation, as it will remain forever.

A psalm written during the exile in Babylon focuses upon the city of Jerusalem:

Psalm 137:5-6
If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.
If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.

The exile was a crucial event in prophecy. Its duration was foretold by Jeremiah. Seventy years are mentioned in Jer. 25:11-12, and Jer. 29:10 says: "For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place."

Daniel refers to Jeremiah's prophecy in his prelude to the 70 weeks prophecy. [Dan. 9:4] In his prayer of confession, Daniel said that the curse of the law of Moses was poured out on Israel. He said: "Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him." [Dan. 9:11]

This alludes to the prophecy contained in Lev. 26, which specifies four periods of seven times of punishment that would come upon Israel, if they did not keep the covenant. Daniel said that it had begun. Perhaps the 70 years of exile in Babylon corresponds to the first of the four periods of "seven times" in Lev. 26. In the 70 weeks prophecy, three more periods of seven times are described, as each of the three sections of the 70 weeks is a period of "seven times," where "time" is a variable, that can take different units in the three sections.

In the last of the four periods of seven times in Lev. 26, God remembers his covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. This corresponds to Daniel 9:27, where Christ confirms his covenant with many for one week.

Using this principle, that "time" may take various units, the duration of the first two sections of the 70 weeks accurately points to the ministry of Jesus, taking the decree of Cyrus in 538 B.C. as the start date, and leap years as units in the first section. Seven weeks of leap years with 13 months spans 133 years, which is seven times, where a "time" is a week of leap years, or 19 years. The second section is also seven times, where a "time" is 62 years, the age of Darius when he became king of Babylon. The first two periods combined terminate in 28 A.D.

In the 70th week Christ confirms his covenant with many. This is also the period in which the city and sanctuary are destroyed, and an abomination of desolation is set up, and something is poured upon the place which is made desolate, referring to the anointing of the Spirit, one of the things promised in verse 24. 

The three and a half years of Jesus' ministry in the first century was the first half week, but then Jesus was crucified, and rose again, and ascended to the throne of his Father in heaven. This fulfilled Isaiah's prophecy, that the mountain of the Lord's house would be "established in the top of the mountains," and "exalted above the hills." Jerusalem was raised up, and became the heavenly Jerusalem, "the city of the great King." The units of the last half week are therefore not earthly units. With God, "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." [2 Peter 3:8] The last half week spans the present age of the church, which is represented by the symbolic expression, "a time, times, and a half." This expression applies to the whole age of the church, not only in its entirety, but also to any portion of it.

The numbers mentioned in Daniel 12:11-12 are three years and a half, where the years are of two kinds; they consist of both regular years of 12 months, and leap years of 13 months, one year differing from the rest in each case. But this assumes that the months are exactly 30 days, which is not true of natural months, which are slightly less.


The image above is a 3D graph of the three prophetic time periods, 1,335 days, 1,290 days, and 1,260 days. 1,335 days and 1,290 days are mentioned in Daniel 12:11-12, and 1,260 days are mentioned in Rev. 11:3 and 12:6. Each of these periods are divided into three sections, which fit the pattern of "a time, times and a half." The "times" in each section of this expression may take different units. The units of one "time" may differ from the units of the remaining "times." The blue section represents the smallest period, of 1,260 days, which is represented as "a time, times and a half," where one "time" is one year of 12 months, "2 times" are 2 years of 12 months each, and a "half time" is six months, the months being 30 days. The gold section represents 1,290 days, which is similar to the blue section except that one "time" consists of a year of 13 months. In the orange section, representing 1,335 days, only one "time" is 12 months and the units of the remaining two and a half "times" are years of 13 months. The months are all 30 days.

The prophetic numbers that represent the time, times, and a half are a progression of smaller and smaller periods, depicting a diminishing time. The 1,335 days is the largest, and of this period Daniel wrote, "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." [Dan. 12:12] The one who waits is Christ, who waits while his church is built and made ready. I suggest that this number represents all the time from the crucifixion to the end of the age.

The 1260 day period is the duration of the ministry of the two witnesses, and the time when the woman in Rev. 12:6 sojourns in the wilderness, where she is nourished. The woman represents the saints.

After the Apocalypse was written, no further scriptural revelations were given to the church. The canon of scripture was sealed. Since the writing of the Apocalypse, the two witnesses, the Spirit and the Word of God, have remained in the world. The writing of the Apocalypse, probably about 95 AD, began the 1,260 days, which extends to the end of the age.

The 1,290 days is intermediate between the 1,335 days, and the 1,260 days. This number identifies the abomination of desolation. John referred to the Antichrist spirit, and he said there were already "many antichrists." This is the abomination of desolation. It has been active in the church, since about the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., which may have been a sign that the desolation of the heavenly Jerusalem was about to begin. [Luke 21:20]

The smallest number that fits the pattern of a time, times and a half is the three days and a half of Rev. 11:9-11. This signifies a short period near the end of the present age of the church. None of these are a literal three and a half years, as literal earth time does not apply to spiritual things. Jesus said, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." [Matt. 24:36]

Doug

Isaiah compared the word of God to rain, and snow. He wrote:

Isaiah 55:10-12
For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.

Mountains and hills that sing, and trees that clap their hands, are certainly examples of poetic imagery, and not literal. The seed and bread, rain and snow, mountains and hills, and trees are all metaphors. The scene is a pleasing one, of a land of hills and mountains with luxurious growth, and of peace and joy.

In other scriptures, the word of God is compared to hail. The hail is associated with a strong rebuke, and with judgment.

Isaiah wrote, "Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand." [Isa. 28:2] Also in this chapter, he said hail will "sweep away the refuge of lies."

Isaiah 28:17
Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

Hail, and fire, and a tempest are associated with God's anger. "And the Lord shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones." [Isa. 30:30]

Great hailstones and brimstone are among the things by which God contends with the invading hordes of Gog and Magog. "And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone." [Ezek. 38:22]

The first of seven trumpet plagues in Revelation consists of hail, fire, and blood. "The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up." [Rev. 8:7]

Such a hail storm is not a natural event. It refers to events of a spiritual nature. Isaiah compared people with grass. "The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass." [Isa. 40:7]

Righteous people are sometimes likened to trees.

Psalm 1:3
And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

Also see Psalm 52:8; 92:12. The wicked are also compared to trees.

Psalm 37:35
I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.

Hail is one of the judgments of the seventh vial.

Revelation 16:21
And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

At Matthew Kneisler's web site The Biblical Hailstone (http://www.arksearch.com/nahstone.htm), calculations are presented on the size of hailstones with the weight of a talent, and the wind speeds required to form them. Large hail is formed as hail is circulated by updrafts within storm clouds. For bigger hailstones, faster wind speeds are required. Kneisler's calculations on the hail described in Revelation 16:21 led him to conclude that such hail stones would be about 20 inches in diameter, and their formation would require wind speeds of about 370 miles per hour. In an F5 tornado, the wind speeds are in the range 261-318 mph.

Anyone struck by hail stones weighing about a talent would likely be killed, and probably would not survive long enough to blaspheme.

Natural hail is produced in thunderstorms, which are limited in extent. They consist of one or more cells, where hailstones grow as they are circulated in updrafts. According to an NOAA website (http://www.nssl.noaa.gov/primer/tstorm/tst_basics.html), these cells typically exist for about 20 minutes, and the area affected by any cell is therefore limited. The site states the following about supercells, the most extreme form of natural thunderstorm:

    The supercell is a highly organized thunderstorm. Supercells are rare, but pose a high threat to life and property. A supercell is similar to the single-cell storm because they both have one main updraft. The difference in the updraft of a supercell is that the updraft is extremely strong, reaching estimated speeds of 150-175 miles per hour. The main characteristic which sets the supercell apart from the other thunderstorm types is the presence of rotation. The rotating updraft of a supercell (called a mesocyclone when visible on radar) helps the supercell to produce extreme severe weather events, such as giant hail (more than 2 inches in diameter, strong downbursts of 80 miles an hour or more, and strong to violent tornadoes.

    The surrounding environment is a big factor in the organization of a supercell. Winds are coming from different directions to cause the rotation. And, as precipitation is produced in the updraft, the strong upper-level winds blow the precipitation downwind. Hardly any precipitation falls back down through the updraft, so the storm can survive for long periods of time.

    The leading edge of the precipitation from a supercell is usually light rain. Heavier rain falls closer to the updraft with torrential rain and/or large hail immediately north and east of the main updraft. The area near the main updraft (typically towards the rear of the storm) is the preferred area for severe weather formation.

In Revelation 16:21, the hailstones are not like those of natural thunderstorms, as John says "there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent."

In natural thunderstorms with hail, the hail stones vary greatly in size. A storm where every hail stone is about the same weight and size would not be a natural one. Neither would a natural thunderstorm affect mankind generally, as the cells of a thunderstorms are generally brief in duration and of limited extent. So John must be describing a spiritual kind of hail.

His statement that every hailstone was about a talent in weight not only eliminates any natural type of thunderstorm, but possibly links these events to the parable of Jesus about the talents.

In this parable, a man who had several servants travels to a far country. He issues talents to his servants. The man who received five talents traded them, and made five more. The man who received two, traded his and gained two more. The man who received one, buried it in the ground.

The parable of the talents is included in the Olivet Discourse, and so the talents may represent the prophecy that Jesus gave to his disciples, and to the church. All the saints have received the scriptures, and the same word of prophecy.

Just as two of the servants in the parable were creative in the way they used the talents they received, some are creative in their use of prophecy. Trading with talents is similar to applying the scriptures to our lives in various ways. Some make use of the message of prophecy. They let the sense and meaning of the word develop and mature, so it becomes more meaningful, and eventually it turns into something greater, and more valuable, than what they received. They are "fruitful." This typically applies when a person is willing to interpret the scriptures according to the spirit, rather than according to the letter.

In contrast, the man who received only one talent buried it in the ground. This is like the attitude of those who insist that the words of scripture can mean only what they literally say. Typically, such people disregard scholarship, and reject the interpretations of Christians of previous centuries.

For them, the great earthquake in Revelation 16:18 must mean a literal earthquake; islands that "fled away" in verse 20 must be literal islands; mountains that can't be found are literal mountains; hail is literal hail, etc. In the judgment, the person who received one talent, which he buried in the ground, says to Christ, "Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine." [vs. 24-25]

The Lord answered him: "Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." [vs. 26-30]

I suggest that the hail in Revelation 16:20 where every stone weighs about a talent links to this famous parable of Jesus. The talents may represent God's word, including prophecies that like the talents in the parable are given to us to use, and become fruitful in Christ's kingdom.

A literal approach to many of the judgments described in scripture causes men to blaspheme: "and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great."

Taking prophecy literally often leads to absurd conclusions. Some who lack understanding, make ridiculous claims about God's judgments, and cause others to blaspheme. Paul noted that this problem existed among Jews in the first century. He said, "For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written." [Rom. 2:24]

Doug

hard cold truth from heaven can  break men's refuge of a lie.  Mic[hael......

   truth can be devastating when it falls from the heavens upon you...but you can also pick it up

  add waters of life to it..and be very refreshed!!!

A skeptic reading about the conversion of Saul, in the New Testament, might say, "well, if Jesus Christ were to reveal himself to me from heaven as a bright shining light, and if he spoke to me personally, like he did to Paul, I would certainly be a believer too!" And, who would not believe, if he were witness to miracles such as those that Jesus and the Apostles performed, or if he actually experienced a miracle himself first-hand?

But today, real evidence of miracles is rare. The philosophers say that second-hand belief in miracles is fallacious. Scottish philosopher and skeptic David Hume (1711-1776) argued that one is never justified in crediting second-hand testimony to miraculous events. Many agreed with him. But Hume then tried to extend his argument, in a vain attempt to discredit prophecy. In his Enquiry concerning Human Understanding he wrote, "What we have said of miracles may be applied, without any variation, to prophecies; and indeed, all prophecies are real miracles, and as such only, can be admitted as proofs of any revelation." Hume's reasoning was flawed, because the fulfilment of prophecy is unlike miracles. Whereas the miracles described in the New Testament are second-hand to us, the fulfilment of Bible prophecy is evident to everyone today, and it becomes more plain and obvious with time, which is why Jesus said to "watch."

This leads us to consider what is the role of prophecy for today. Fulfilled prophecy is the foundation for belief and faith in God for many.

People today are not eye witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus, as the apostles were, but instead, we have the witness of prophecy. The Reformers recognized that in the history of the church, prophecy was fulfilled. They applied the prophecy in Daniel 7 to the present age of the church. But that view was obscured by futurism, and by preterism, which interpret most of the prophecies the Reformers had applied to the history of the church to ethnic Jews in a future seven year tribulation, or to Jews in the first century.

A key to understanding the church's history, and how it illustrates the fulfilment of prophecy over the centuries, is the expression in both Daniel and Revelation, "a time, times and a half," and applying this symbolic period to the whole age of the church. The numbers in Daniel 12:11-12, and Revelation 11:3, and 12:6, fit this patten, as illustrated in the graph below.


Henry More (1614-1687) was the author of an influential commentary on the Apocalypse, Apocalypsis apocalypseos; or, the Revelation of St John the Divine unveiled. (London, 1680).

In More's opinion, the 1,260 days of the two witnesses were symbolic of 1,260 years, which had already expired. He sought a coherent, rational approach to interpreting prophecy that pointed not to a future revolution in the political and social world, but to an inner transformation leading to the triumph of the "Divine Life" in all believers.

More was a Universalist. He followed Origen in believing in the pre-existence of the individual soul before its incarnation, discussed in his The Praeexistency of the Soul, 1647.

As a Platonist, More thought of God as morally perfect, and unimpeachable. John Henry stated that More believed that God should not be charged with "colluding with the illicit sexual acts of sinners by intervening in their acts to create souls for their illegitimate progeny. As More later put it in the notes to his edition of George Rust's Origenian Discourse of Truth (1682), God must not be made to 'bear a part amongst Pimps and Bawds, and pocky whores and Whoremasters, to rise out of his Seat for them, and by a free Act of Creation of a Soul, to set his seal of connivance to their Villanies' (More 1682, 9). Furthermore, while he was adopting ideas from Origen, More also embraced the Origenian belief in universal salvation--the idea that all souls would eventually be saved and rewarded with heavenly bliss." [John Henry (2012). Henry More (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/henry-more/).]

On More's views on the effectiveness of miracles as supporting Christian belief, Peter Harrison wrote:

As early as the mid-seventeenth century Cambridge Platonist Henry More had argued that "no miracle, though done by such as may seem of an unexceptionable life and of more singular sanctity, can in reason ratify any doctrine or practice that is repugnant to rightly circumscribed sense, or natural truths, or science...." More goes on to explain his reasoning in a remarkable anticipation of Hume's argument:

The truth of this is manifest from hence, That no man can be so certain that such a man is not a crafty and cautious hypocrite, and his miracle either a juggle or delusion of the Devil, or (if he was not an eye-witness of it) a false report of a miracle, as he is certain of rightly circumstantiated sense, of common notions and natural science, or the articles of the Apostolic Faith, or of any plain assertion in Scripture. And therefore that which is most certain in this case ought in all reason to be our guide.

On the face of it More's argument seems rather reckless, as he appears to overlook the fact that "plain assertions in Scripture" may include testimonies to miraculous events, and thus scripture itself may fail the test. However, More was not wholly oblivious to the dangers of his own argument. "The true and primarie sense of Holy Scripture," he insists, "is literal or historical, unless ... the literal meaning be repugnant to rightly circumstantiated sense or natural science &c."

[Henry More, A Brief Discourse of the True Grounds of the Certainty of Faith in Points of Religion, in Theological Works (London, 1708), 769. Cited in: Peter Harrison. Prophecy, Early-Modern Apologetics, and Hume's Argument against Miracles (http://epublications.bond.edu.au/hss_pubs/52). 1999.]

More's assertion that "The true and primarie sense of Holy Scripture is literal or historical, unless ... the literal meaning be repugnant to rightly circumstantiated sense or natural science" anticipates the so-called "golden rule" of dispensationalist David L. Cooper (1886-1965): "when the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths indicate clearly otherwise."

Ralph Cudworth (1617--1688) was one of the "Cambridge Platonists," and a professor of Hebrew, notable for his knowledge of Jewish literature and antiquities.

He was the author of a treatise on The True Intellectual System of the Universe, in which he opposed the atheistic and deistic writers of the time, such as Hobbes. He argued that prophecy was one of the strongest arguments for Christian belief, and its evidence was more certain than miracles. Cudworth wrote:

Scripture prophecies, of Christ in the Old Testament; and from him in the New, are of equal if not greater force to us in this present age for the confirmation of our faith, than the miracles themselves recorded in Scripture, we having now certain knowledge our selves, of many of these events.

[Cudworth, The True Intellectual System of the Universe (London, 1674), 715. Cited in Harrison. Op. Cit.]

Robert Boyle (1627-91), the famous naturalist, claimed that prophecies "have a peculiar advantage above most other miracles, on the force of their duration; since the manifest proofs of the prediction continue still, and are as visible as the extent of the Christian religion."

[Boyle, The Christian Virtuoso, in The Works, ed. Thomas Birch (6 vols.; Hildesheim, 1966), V, 535f. Cited in Harrison, Op. Cit.]

Samuel Clarke (1675-1729) wrote:

The miracles which our Savior worked, were to his first disciples, who were eye-witnesses of them, a complete demonstration of the truth of his doctrine.... It is true, the miracles of Christ, and particularly of his resurrection, which was the greatest of all, is not such an ocular demonstration to after-generations.... But then on the other side, in some respects, we have the advantage even of them; We have the examination of many ages, the answers to the objections of all sorts of adversaries, the judgment of the wisest and most considerate men that have gone before us, and the evidence of several of the Lord's prophecies since that time fulfilled.

[Clarke, Sermon CXXVIII, Works (4 vols.; New York, 1978), II, 79f. Cited in Harrison, Op. Cit.]

Arthur Ashley Sykes (1684-1756), vicar of Rayleigh in Essex, and a friend of Sir Isaac Newton, linked biblical miracles to the fulfilment of prophecy. "Prophecy is like a standing miracle of which we ourselves are certain judges; and the appeal lies, not to the eyes of those who lived many hundreds of years ago, but to our own faculties." [A. A. Sykes, A Brief Discourse concerning the Credibility of Miracles and Revelation. London, 1742. 43f. Cited in Harrison, Op. Cit.]

Properly understanding prophecy is vital for strengthening our faith. Peter wrote:

2 Peter 1:19
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Doug

 WE ARE DOUBLE GARMENTED..BY THE WIFE OF NOBLE CHARACTER......JERUSALEM ABOVE..

   SHE SELECTS WOOL AND FLAX AND WORKS WITH EAGER HANDS[..MEN AS SHEEP/LAMB SLAIN

  BEFORE THE FOUNDING OF THE WORLD..]  AND CLOTHED IN FINE LINEN

  GOD HIMSELF IS THE MIRACLE[A SUPERNATURAL WONDER]  A STRANGE THING...

  MIRUS=WONDERFUL

The expression "a time, times and a half" is prominent in Daniel chapters 7 and 12. It is the subject of the oath sworn by the person who is described as standing on the waters of the river in Daniel 12:7, who says that in this period of time, everything in Daniel's prophecies will be completed. Daniel wrote:

Daniel 12:7
And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

The assumption that this expression represents three and a half literal years is simplistic; there is more to it than that. The two numbers mentioned in Daniel 12:11-12 are both related to the "time, times and a half." And the mysterious expression written on the wall during the feast of Belshazzar, the night Babylon fell, is also connected with it. The king of Babylon saw a detached hand writing the words "Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin" on the wall, as he was drinking from the golden vessels from the Jerusalem temple.

These words signify three units of Babylonian currency; the Mene is the mina; Tekel is the Assyrian shekel; Upharsin is the pares, or half mina. In Dan. 5:26-28 Daniel interprets these words as meaning "numbered, numbered, weighed, divided." He said:

Mene; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it.

Tekel; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.

Peres; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.

Wikipedia states:

Although usually left untranslated in English translations of Daniel, these words are known Aramaic names of measures of currency: MENE, a mina (from the root meaning "to count"), TEKEL, a spelling of shekel (from the root meaning "to weigh"), PERES, half a mina (from the root meaning "to divide", but additionally resembling the word for "Persia").

In Ezekiel 45:12, there are 20 + 25 + 15 = 60 shekels in a mina.

In the two expressions of Dan. 5:25 and 7:25, there is an obvious parallel. In each expression, there are three sections. There are two of one quantity, plus half of the same quantity, in each case. A third section consists of another kind of unit.

	Time		2 x Times		½ Time
	Tekel		Mene, Mene		Peres
	Shekel		2 minas		½ mina

The three monetary quantities in the writing on the wall are illustrated in the 3D graph below.

(http://tcc.customer.sentex.ca/dload/wwall.png)

The expression written on the wall, and the "time, times and a half" are similar because they share the same pattern or structure. And both are about units, in one case, units of currency, and in the other, units of time. Furthermore, there is a parallel in the interpretation of both expressions. None of the wise men of Babylon could figure out the meaning of the writing on the wall, and there has been a similar failure in attempts by the wise men of the world, and the preterists, and the dispensationalists, etc., to figure out the meaning of the "time, times and a half."

Doug

numbered,numbered..weighed divided..makes me think of the scales..........with measures of leavening

  of sin..that leavens whole..and leaven of Christ that leavens whole.....time of law til Christ come

  in midst of week[Wednesday] or betrothal..another 3 1/2 days to complet week..Grace=..leavening of all lump

     divided also can mean seperated..from leavening of sin.......make an end to all sin.

   Daniel speaks of the saints being overcome ...over powered..and then Ancient of Days comes

  and the kingdom is handed over unto the saints.........

   very interesting tying that with 3 1/2 times to mene mene..........

When you add leaven to the lump it becomes something new, the whole thing is leavened. The lump can be leavened with the leaven of the Pharisees or with the leaven of Christ and the divine nature, but not with both. A little leaven leavens the whole lumps, according to the Master.

The following chart identifies ten time periods from the prophecies of Daniel, and Revelation, and the words of Jesus. They are shown in diverse colours, and the intent is to illustrate how these prophetic periods relate to one another. One key period, illustrated in bright yellow, is "this generation." This extends from the birth of Jesus, to the end of time, because Jesus was raised from his grave, and lives and reigns forever, and he represents the generation in which he lived.

(http://tcc.customer.sentex.ca/dload/70wkschart.png)

There are four periods of seven times outlined in Lev. 26, which represent the duration of the curse of the law of Moses, that would come upon Israel if they failed to keep the covenant. This is mentioned in Daniel 9:11. These four periods are shown in white, light yellow, green, and grey boxes. Daniel said that the curse had been poured out, which must refer to the first of the four seven times. The first seven times is identified with the 70 years of exile foretold by Jeremiah, referred to in Daniel 9:4.

The remaining three periods of seven times of Lev. 26 are each connected with one of the three sections of the 70 weeks in this chart. Each of these is "seven times" where "time" takes different units in each section. The last of these, the grey area in the chart, includes the ministry of Jesus, and the whole age of the church, which together make a "week," the first half being the earthly ministry of Jesus, and the last half being a prophetic symbol, representing the whole time of the church. Daniel 9:27 says "And he will confirm the covenant for one week." This is taken to mean the new covenant of the gospel which Jesus established.
   
The last half-week of the 70th week is represented by the 1,335 days of Dan. 12:12, and by the other related numbers that depict a diminishing period. The abomination of desolation is understood to mean the antichrist spirit, that the apostle John said was already present in the church, in the first century. It is believed to have been introduced about the time of the destruction of the earthly Jerusalem and the temple, in 70 A.D., which appears to have been the sign that the desolation of the heavenly city was near.

The purple area at the right illustrates the 2,300 days of Daniel 8:14, here interpreted as 23 centuries, which is the duration of another kind of desolation. This period represents the time when the flawed cosmology of the Greeks was dominant. It continued until about the mid-eighteenth century, which was when men realized that no rigid heavenly firmament revolves around the earth, but the earth rotates on its axis. The discoveries of Sir Isaac Newton, and other astronomers were widely accepted about that time. It was 23 centuries after Daniel received his vision, in the 3rd year of Belshazzar.

Doug

Hi Eaglesway....

   I was thinking on the line of sin in flesh being the leavening[or subjected to vanity]  of all men=

   one measure of leavened flour

...and all men raised in Christ through free gift as another= measure of christ-leavened..on the

  balanced scale[sorry if not clear]...perfect justice..the only differential sin and no sin

The prophetic time periods of 1,290 days, and 1,335 days, are mentioned in Dan. 12:11-12. The 1,260 days is found in Rev. 11:3 and 12:6. Each of these three periods is distinct, because each represents either the church age, or a portion of it. This is a diminishing period. The "time, times and a half" is symbolic, and the numbers associated with it are also symbolic. They are "models" having a character similar to other prophetic symbols. For example, the church is represented by a temple, or a candlestick; Christ is represented by the passover lamb, etc. Likewise, the duration of the church age is represented by three and a half symbolic years, that together with the ministry of Jesus, make a prophetic "week," in which Christ confirms his covenant with his saints. [Dan. 9:27]

Each of the periods associated with the "time, times and a half" differ from a natural three and a half years, as shown in the series of 3D graphs below, which compare the times related to the prophetic "time, times and a half" to a natural three and a half years, according to the Jewish solar-lunar calendar. The natural three and a half years is shown in light green, in each graph. It is a period of three and a half years, where months are lunar months, and one year has 13 months.

1,290 days

(http://tcc.customer.sentex.ca/dload/Timesplot3.png)

1,335 days

(http://tcc.customer.sentex.ca/dload/Timesplot4.png)

1,260 days

(http://tcc.customer.sentex.ca/dload/Timesplot2.png)

The graphs illustrate the differences between the prophetic periods and the natural. I suggest that this distinction of the periods from a natural three and a half years was intended to show that these are spiritual, or figurative periods, not literal earthly days or years. Natural time does not apply to the works of God, which are spiritual in nature. 

The time periods may be explained briefly as follows.

The 1,290 days is the time remaining after the "abomination of desolation" was set up in the church. "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." [Dan. 12:11] This began in the first century, probably about the time of the destruction of the earthly Jerusalem in 70 A.D., which was evidently a sign that the desolation of the heavenly city was about to begin. Afterwards, John said "many antichrists" were present.

1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

There have been "many antichrists" from John's time to the present; they have not gone away.

The 1,335 days represent all the time assigned to the present age of the church. This period began at about the time of Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection. Daniel was told, "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." [Dan. 12:12] The one who waits is Christ. He waits while his church is built and prepared.

The 1,260 days represents the remaining time, after the New Testament was completed; it is the duration of the ministry of the two witnesses. It probably began about the end of the first century. It is the period when the church, represented by the woman in Rev. 12, is nourished in the wilderness. She is nourished by the scriptures, and the Spirit, and the wilderness pictures the saints departing from the corruption of the world.

Doug

YEAH, THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE..IS DENYING THE ATONEMENT LAMB CHRIST...

WHO OFFERED UP HIMSELF ONCE..........DAILY SACRIFICES = KEEP DOING THIS IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME


    1 COR 11;25  THE LORD'S SUPPER...THIS IS MY BODY WHICH IS FOR YOU, THIS CUP IS THE

  NEW COVENANT IN MY BLOOD,DO THIS WHENEVER YOU DRINK IT IN REMEBRANCE OF ME

   FOR WHENEVER YOU EAT THIS BREAD AND DRINK THIS CUP,YOU PROCLAIM THE LORD'S DEATH

  UNTIL HE COMES.  THEREFORE WHOEVER EATS THE BREAD OR DRINKS THE CUP OF THE LORD IN AN

  [ TWO WITTNESSES= THE BODY AND THE BLOOD]

UNWORTHY MANNER SINS AGAINST THE BODY OF THE LORD[ABOMINATION].


  13TH MONTH...A WOMAN CLOTHED WITH THE SUN...THE ...MOON..UNDER HER FEET

 WHEN THE TWO WITTNESSES [BODYAND BLOOD] ARE TOLD TO 'COME UP HERE"  IT IS THE MONTH

  OF THE WOMAN'S DELIVERANCE OF THE MANCHILD

   WHEREVER THE DEAD BODY IS THERE THE VULTURES WILL GATHER= FOR 3 1/2 DAYS MEN

  FROM EVERY PEOPLE WILL GAZE ON THEIR BODIES AND REFUSE THEM BURIAL...

  THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH WILL GLOAT OVER THEM AND WILL CELEBRATE

  BECAUSE THESE TWO WITTNESSES TORMENTED THOSE WHO LIVE ON EARTH[DID YOU COME

TO TORMENT US BEFORE THE PROPER TIME?]

  SEE GREAT SUPPER OF THE LORD[GOG'S CROWD  BEAST THAT COMES UP FROM ABYSS THAT

  OVERCOMES TWO WITTNESSES[BODY AND BLOOD OF CHRIST]

The chart below shows the relation between the 70 weeks, and the 2,300 days, and "this generation," which is the generation Jesus represents. It runs off the chart at the right, because it continues forever.


Note that there are no gaps in the 70 weeks. Introducing gaps makes no sense in a time prophecy. Paul told Timothy, "hold fast the form of sound words," and I suggest that to say that there are no gaps in the 70 weeks is a sound, reasonable, and true statement one can rely upon. One reason there are no gaps, is that the three sections of the 70 weeks correspond to the last three of the four periods of "seven times" in Lev. 26. The first was the exile in Babylon, which Daniel alludes to in Dan. 9:11. And this implies there are no gaps, as any gap requires a lapse in the curse, which in turn requires that Israel was temporarily reconciled to God, and that has not happened. Any reconciliation is permanent.   

No one says there are gaps in the 2,300 days of Daniel 8:14. These are interpreted as years in the chart, and this long time period is compared with the 70 weeks.

There are different units in each of the three sections of the 70 weeks. In the first section, which is 7 weeks, the units are leap years in the chart. Daniel's numbers in Dan. 12:11-12, the 1,290 days, and 1,335 days, imply that leap years of 13 months and regular years of 12 months are employed to derive these symbolic numbers, which represent the time, times and a half, or a portion of it, as I discussed in a previous post. Units of leap years also help us interpret the 70 weeks, so that no gap is required between the 70 years of exile in Babylon, and the start of the 70 weeks, at the decree of Cyrus, 538 BC. With leap years as units for the first section, and normal sabbatical cycles as units for the second section, these two sections work out nicely to the start of the ministry of Jesus. The final week, in which Jesus confirms his covenant with many, includes his earthly ministry, and the whole age of the church. Units for the last half week are spiritual, and figurative, because they apply to the heavenly Jerusalem. Earthly units do not apply to spiritual things.

There is no change in the nature of units of the 2,300 days, because this period does not apply to spiritual things. Instead, it refers to the duration of the geocentric cosmology of the Greeks, which passed away about 1750 AD, when men realized the earth revolves on its axis, not the heavens. This was the scientific revolution.

Doug

Genesis chapter 11 records that after the flood, people began to multiply, and they were all of one language, and began to build the tower of Babel, but God came down and stopped the project, by confusing their language, and so they no longer understood each other, and the nations became scattered to different parts of the earth. And so it came to be that every land and nation was associated with a particular language.

The better land of the saints is also a nation, and is associated with a distinctive language. This is mentioned in Isaiah 28, where the prophet says: "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people." [Isa. 28:9-11] The words "another tongue" specify the language of the prophets. This is also the language of the "better land" mentioned in Hebrews 11:16.

Just as the lands of all the nations are associated with their own language, the spiritual or heavenly land, the better country of the saints, has a language. It is one that must be learned if we are to understand the prophets. It is a language of metaphor and parable, as that was how Jesus taught the people. 

Matthew 13:33-35
Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Since Isaiah said that God would speak to his people in "another tongue," the words of the prophets have to be interpreted. Saying that prophecy should be taken literally is not a biblical approach, but it is a doctrine of men.

When we consider the story of Adam and Eve, and how they were banished from Eden, we find a parallel in the history of Israel, and their banishment from the promised land at the exile. When Adam and Eve were banished, they no longer had access to the tree of life. But the story shows that after their banishment, they no longer enjoyed fellowship with God. The ground was cursed for their sake. It was as if their environment became hostile to them.

The better land of the saints reverses this. Paul wrote, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." [Romans 8:28]

This is one of the benefits of the better land. It is a land where Christ reigns as Lord and king; the Jerusalem above is "the city of the great King." [Matt. 5:35]

The heavenly land has mountains, rivers, valleys, towns, plains, trees, and pasture. Jerusalem is said to be a place of "towns without walls."

Zechariah 2:4
And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein.

The earthly Jerusalem has had walls for centuries, and since about 2002, it is partly bounded by an 8 m high concrete wall, with sniper towers, and sections of barbed wire fence, and check points, etc., which extends over 700 km, separating the West Bank of Palestine from the Jewish areas.

The prophecies that speak of Jerusalem as towns without walls, and "a land of unwalled villages," are not speaking of the earthly city. The "land of unwalled villages" is the land which is invaded by the hordes of Gog and Magog, in Ezek. 38. They come against "the mountains of Israel" and "the prophets of Israel." [Ezek. 38:8, 17] But they speak another language. They don't understand the language of the "better land."

They want "silver and gold," and seek to take "a great spoil." Has anyone noticed how often religious Websites provide buttons for people to "Donate"? Hmm...

The prophets often speak of sheep, cattle, and horses; for example the armies of Gog and Magog are "all riding horses." The kingdoms in Daniel 7 are represented by beasts such as lions, bears, leopards. The saints are represented by sheep. In some scriptures false teachers are compared to wolves. Jesus referred to the scribes and pharisees as serpents.

In the better land of the saints, mountains are symbolic; they represent God's promises. This is demonstrated in the blessing Jacob gave to Joseph, where he said that his blessings extended to "the utmost bound of the everlasting hills." [Gen. 49:26] They were high like mountains, because they were spiritual; Jacob realized that more was promised than literal land. And they were eternal. Similarly the promises of God to the saints are spiritual and eternal. They are the mountains in the better land.

Isaiah said that the mountain of the Lord's house would be established in the top of the mountains, and exulted above the hills. When Jesus was resurrected, he ascended to the throne of his Father in heaven. This is the highest "mountain" of all. Jerusalem was also raised up, and became the heavenly Jerusalem. In Zechariah 14:10, Jerusalem is raised up, and the surrounding land becomes a plain. So when Jesus said, "then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains," he was not speaking of earthly mountains. Those in Judaea alludes to the church, and the heavenly mount Zion. According the Zechariah's prophecy, understood spiritually, Jerusalem is the only notable "mountain" in Judaea, as all the surrounding land has been made into a plain! But this is only understood by faith; it is a spiritual concept; the invading hordes of Gog and Magog are blind to it.

Isaiah said, "Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married." [Isaiah 62:4]

What land did he mean? Not the earthly land of Canaan. The land he refers to is the "better land" of which Canaan was a shadow, and a figure. The land being married to those who dwell in it, those called out of every nation and country, is a picture of perpetual fidelity to the spiritual things that the land represents. To participate in the wars of worldly governments is contrary to this concept of being "married" to the land that Christ is leading us to.

Daniel referred to this spiritual land as "the glorious holy mountain." It is the mountain that was "established in the top of the mountains" as Isaiah foretold. It would be made desolate by a foreign invader. 

"And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him." [Dan. 11:45]

The glorious holy mountain is the one that Jesus encourages people to flee to. This "better" land is a homeland for the saints of every nation, who come out from the world, and mystical Babylon. "Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north," Zechariah wrote. [Zech. 2:6] "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord. And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto thee. And the Lord shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again." [vs. 10-12] It is the heavenly Jerusalem the prophet speaks of here, because Jesus said to the Samaritan woman, "Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." [John 4:21-24]

According to Jesus men will no longer worship God at the earthly Jerusalem, or at mount Gerizim; the "better land" is the spiritual inheritance of the saints, and his kingdom is the mountain where the saints come.

Doug

 really njoy these posts,Doug....thank you

Psalms 48;8

   As we have heard,so we have seen in the city of the Lord Almighty,

   in the city of Our God......God Himself will establish her forever..

  For Zion's sake I will not keep silent,for Jerusalem's sake I will not remain quiet.....

     til her righteousness shines out like the dawn, her salvation like a blazing torch[Sos 8;6]


    He has set His foundation on the Holy Mountain;

   THE LORD LOVES THE GATES OF ZION MORE THAN ALL THE DWELLINGS OF JACOB

   GLORIOUS THINGS ARE SAID OF YOU, O'CITY OF GOD

   I WILL RECORD RAHAB AND BABYLON AMONG THOSE WHO ACKNOWLEDGE ME-

  PHILISTIA TOO, AND TYRE ALONG WITH CUSH- AND WILL SAY.....

   INDEED OF ZION IT WILL BE SAID 'THIS ONE AND THAT ONE WERE BORN IN HER,


  AND THE MOST HIGH HIMSELF WILL ESTABLISH HER.

  THE LORD WILL WRITE IN THE REGISTER OF THE PEOPLE'S......

  THIS ONE WAS BORN IN ZION[BUT REJOICE THAT YOUR NAMES ARE WRITTEN IN HEAVEN/

   WHOSE NAMES ARE IN THE BOOK OF LIFE]

Preterists say that a key to understanding the Olivet Discourse is the statement of Jesus, that all his prophecies will occur in "this generation." [Luke 21:32] They claim that it was fulfilled in the first century.

Dispensationalists like Hal Lindsay also claim that this saying is a significant key for understanding the prophecy. Lindsay believed the 'Rapture' would likely occur by 1988, which he based on the notion that a generation was 40 years, and 1988 would be 40 years after the founding of the Jewish state in Palestine. But that date passed without a 'Rapture.' Recently some dispensationalists have speculated that perhaps a 'generation' is not 40 years, but 70 years, in which case the period when the 'Rapture' is expected would come to an end in 2018.

I also think that Jesus' reference to "this generation" is highly significant, and indeed it is a key to understanding his entire prophecy, but one should understand the prophecy in the light of Jesus' resurrection from the grave, and the fact that he is alive, and continues to represent his generation. It is a unique generation, as it spans all the time since his birth, and continues forever. The angel said to Mary, "He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end." [Luke 1:33-34]

Platonists, who believe in Plato's doctrine of the immortality of the human soul, do not understand how the generation of Jesus can be unique; they view it as like any other. Thus, they think that the meaning of "this generation" is either the generation alive in the first century when Jesus ministered, or an end-time generation. They don't believe the words of Paul to Timothy, "... That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen." [1 Tim. 6:14-16]

Jesus is the only one who possesses immortality, according to this scripture; and therefore, his generation continues forever. This means that many of the things Jesus describes in the Olivet Discourse and Luke's parallel account span all the time from the first century to the present.

Jesus said that when Jerusalem is compassed with armies, "then know that the desolation thereof is nigh." [Luke 21:20] The Jerusalem he meant, may be either the earthly one, or the heavenly one, or, he may have alluded to both, meaning that when the earthly Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD, the desolation of the heavenly city was nigh. The heavenly city has been compassed by spiritual armies, in all centuries since then. This is what Peter foretold in 2 Peter 2.

In Luke 21:21 Jesus said, "Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains." He must have meant flee to the promises of God that the mountains represent. Otherwise, this saying would contradict his statement in Luke 17:33, "Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it."

I suggest the "days of vengeance" in Luke 21:22, when "all things which are written are fulfilled," are not limited to seven years at the end of the age, as dispensationalists say; neither are they the days preceding the destruction of the earthly Jerusalem as preterists claim, but they span all the time since the first century. Christ has been reigning over all, bringing his word to pass.

In verse 23, "them that are with child," and "them that give suck" should be understood in the light of the terminology of the gospel; Peter refers to the word of God as "milk." He said, "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby." [1 Peter 2:2] Them that "give suck" are those teaching and preaching the word. And Paul spoke of himself as a spiritual mother who "travails in birth" over the Galatian Cristians: "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you." [Gal. 4:19-20]

So, "them that are with child" in the Olivet Discourse does not necessarily refer to girls or women who are pregnant, but to those who are ministers, who have spiritual responsibility for others.

In Luke 21:24, "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled," refers to the Christian church, the Jerusalem above, not the earthly city. After the age of the apostles it became dominated by Gentiles, men who lacked the spirit and wisdom of God. And this continues today. The prophecy is parallel to Revelation 11:1-2, "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."

The outer court represents the worldly, outward, superficial kind of Christianity. This is also depicted in a prophecy of Daniel:

Daniel 11:33-35
And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Luke 21:25
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

This part of the prophecy clearly shows it is not specifically referring to events in the first century. The sun represents the gospel; the woman in Revelation 12:1 is clothed with the sun. She has the moon at her feet. This woman represents the church, those of whom Paul said: "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." [Eph. 2:4-6]

Other scriptures show the sun becoming black like sackcloth. It means the truth of the gospel has been obscured; its message has been changed from light to superstition. The idea of unending infernal torment of unbelievers is an example of this. It fulfills Peter's prophecy in 2 Peter 2:1-3, and the whole chapter about false teachers who would come into the church.

"The sea and the waves roaring" is hardly limited to the first century, or to a future seven years; rather it refers to spiritual confusion among the people of the world. The sea refers to the people of the nations, in Revelation.

Revelation 17:15
And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Isaiah also refers to men in unbelief as a "troubled sea."

Isaiah 57:20
But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.

Perhaps Jesus was referring to the spiritual confusion and chaos among the nations of the world, when he spoke of "the sea and the waves roaring."

Also, note that Paul speaks of "winds of doctrine" in Eph. 4:14. Jesus spoke of winds and rain in Matt. 7:24-27.

Luke 21:26
Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Again, this seems to allude to spiritual turmoil, both in the church and in the world; the "powers of heaven" may be the spiritual powers and principalities, with whom the saints wrestle. [Eph. 6:12]

Luke 21:27
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Christ "coming in a cloud" alludes to Daniel 7:13-14, "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."

The saints are referred to as a "cloud of witnesses." [Heb. 12:1-3] Those who teach the word are called a "cloud" because the word is represented by "rain."

Isaiah 55:10-12
For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.

Christ is seen in the clouds of his witnesses like rainbows are sometimes seen in clouds that bring the rain.

Doug

Quote from: DougRecently some dispensationalists have speculated that perhaps a 'generation' is not 40 years, but 70 years, in which case the period when the 'Rapture' is expected would come to an end in 2018.

That makes sense to me, or sooner.   'This generation' is the generation that sees all these things fulfilled mentioned in Mat 24.   It will all happen in the span of one generation, that is, very fast.


whoops, Carry on. :Peace2:

anytime,I see a rainbow..it always brings to my mind...the promises of God...especially the 'NEVER AGAIN"

  as what was spoken in Noah's day...and in 'never again will I rebuke thee " spoken by God to Jerusalem above

   never to drink of the cup of His wrath again.....thus salvation...saved from wrath..through Christ..whose

  body is the ark..even the 'word of God come in flesh"...and raised up in Heaven=testimony/ark of covenant

   when God told David He would build him a house[eternal]   He said He would discipline sons.. but never take away

  His covenant/annointing like He did with Saul...[sure mercies]

   Jesus also speaks of days like Noah......instructs His to look up[ark of testimony seen in heaven]

=Heavens opened Rev 11;19[treasure reserved in heaven/floodgates of heaven..that pour out a blessing

  until there is no more want[out of your belly shal flow waters of life]  TRUE TESTIMONYt]  accusor thrown out

   
  Born from above of free woman...followed by persecution=nations misled/floodwaters of dragon[

but Peter said that Gods wrath would be revealed from heaven to the ungodly.

seeing it is a righteous thing to God to seek vengeance on those that persecute you.

yes...the dragon persecuted the woman.....and got thrown out of heaven unto the earth...where he went off

  to make war with the woman's offspring.......

   p.s.   the dragon is ungodly...is not of the spirit of God

thinking about Doug's refernce to the 'language' of the new land...Based of prophecy...and

  the 'pure' language. Also brought to mind thefalse prophet and the power given over every

  people,language and tongue.  He that is able to control the 'TONGUE" even being a perfect man

   speaking of the gift of tongues in the body.1 Cor 12;  and ch 14 and the gift of prophesy.

    spiritual edification of the individual member'tongue expressed'..or pure language,perfect

  prophesy..that the whole body be edified into the mind of Christ/understand.

    THE SPIRITS OF PROPHETS ARE SUBJECT TO CONTROL OF THE PROPHETS...AND IF

  A REVELATION COMES TO SOMEONE WHO IS SITTING DOWN,THE FIRST SPEAKER SHOULD

STOP.  FOR YOU CAN ALL PROPHESY IN TURN,SO THAT EVERYONE MAY BE INSTRUCTED

   AND ENCOURAGED.

    WOW.........this is really the first time I have ever seen these scriptures  make so much sense.

I prefer Charles Krauthammer, but that is just my opinion. Yes it was sarcastic. :eek:

 sarcasm ll sarcasmos..Greek sarkasmos, sarkezein,to tear flesh like dogs.....speak bitterly

   sarcos=flesh ,< IEbase'twerk' to cut

    New World Dictionary of the American Language

   diction- to speak to say.....to accuse, to teach

   KEEP PUTTING UP WITH ONE ANOTHER IN LOVE

  BECAUSE OF THE INCREASING OF LAWLESSNESS THE LOVE OF THE MANY WILL WAX COLD

  HE THAT ENDURES TO THE END WILL BE SAVED

wonderful things are happening,Micah.  Don't give out,Brother :friendstu:

Quote from: sheila on October 29, 2012, 09:17:11 PM
thinking about Doug's refernce to the 'language' of the new land...Based of prophecy...and

  the 'pure' language. Also brought to mind thefalse prophet and the power given over every

  people,language and tongue.  He that is able to control the 'TONGUE" even being a perfect man

   speaking of the gift of tongues in the body.1 Cor 12;  and ch 14 and the gift of prophesy.

    spiritual edification of the individual member'tongue expressed'..or pure language,perfect

  prophesy..that the whole body be edified into the mind of Christ/understand.

    THE SPIRITS OF PROPHETS ARE SUBJECT TO CONTROL OF THE PROPHETS...AND IF

  A REVELATION COMES TO SOMEONE WHO IS SITTING DOWN,THE FIRST SPEAKER SHOULD

STOP.  FOR YOU CAN ALL PROPHESY IN TURN,SO THAT EVERYONE MAY BE INSTRUCTED

   AND ENCOURAGED.

    WOW.........this is really the first time I have ever seen these scriptures  make so much sense.

Eze 13:9  "So My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will have no place in the council of My people, nor will they be written down in the register of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel, that you may know that I am the Lord GOD.

Yahweh rules in the council of the Elohim. He is a God of Fellowship, many becoming one in the all in all.

"Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'If you will walk in My ways and if you will perform My service, then you will also govern My house and also have charge of My courts, and I will grant you free access among these who are standing here.
(Zec 3:7)

The councils of the Lord are open to those who seek His will and lay down their lives, closed to those who are carnal, still seeking the praises of men(He that speaks from himself seeks his own glory, the one who seeks the glory of the One who sent him speaks the words of the One who sent him)

Eze 28:14  "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.

The temple of the Lord has three chambers, the innermost chamber is where the stones of fire are, beneath the wings of the cherubim(which symbolize the praises of the "great congregation" sounding like the rushing of many waters, like the sound of 10,000s of 10,000s)

A spirit of praise opens the heavens for the quickening word to begin to flash from prophet to prophet, and we are a nation of prophets

Let the prophets prophesy two or three and let the others judge..... for all may prophesy that all may learn and be edified....For if one come in and all prophesy then the secrets of their hearts will be revealed and they will fall down and say, "Truly, God is in the midst of you".......for the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

Heb 4:12 The word of God is quick and active and sharper than any two edged sword,....dividing asunder soul and spirit.....making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

When the spirit of prophecy flourishes the testimonies of the saints overcome the evil one. The word of the Lord multiplies and the Lord adds daily. The unleashing of the prophetic word pierces the veil and opens the holy of holies and the voice of God thunders among the saints and the glory of God floods the temple. The city is set on the hill, the Lamp upon the lampstand.

Lev 16:12  "He shall take a firepan full of coals of fire from upon the altar before the LORD and two handfuls of finely ground sweet incense, and bring it inside the veil.
Eze 1:13  In the midst of the living beings there was something that looked like burning coals of fire, like torches darting back and forth among the living beings. The fire was bright, and lightning was flashing from the fire.

We are the coals, the lightnings flash back and forth as the prophets prophecy(by prophecy I simply mean inspired speech, anointed tongues  over flaming hearts)

"It will come about at that time That I will search Jerusalem with lamps, And I will punish the men Who are stagnant in spirit, Who say in their hearts, 'The LORD will not do good or evil!'
(Zep 1:12)

A Psalm of Asaph. God(elohiym) standeth in the congregation of the mighty(el); he judgeth among the gods(elohiym). How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. I have said, Ye are gods(elohiym); and all of you are children of the most High(elyon). But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Arise, O God(elohiym), judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
(Psa 82:1-8)


The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy- God stands in the midst of the prophets when they are subject to one another, when iron sharpens iron, when they make room for the grace of God in one another, then the lightnings flashes among the coals of fire and the judgments/counsels of God are revealed.

Quote from: eaglesway on October 30, 2012, 06:46:51 AM

Eze 13:9  "So My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will have no place in the council of My people, nor will they be written down in the register of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel, that you may know that I am the Lord GOD.

Yahweh rules in the council of the Elohim. He is a God of Fellowship, many becoming one in the all in all.

"Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'If you will walk in My ways and if you will perform My service, then you will also govern My house and also have charge of My courts, and I will grant you free access among these who are standing here.
(Zec 3:7)

The councils of the Lord are open to those who seek His will and lay down their lives, closed to those who are carnal, still seeking the praises of men(He that speaks from himself seeks his own glory, the one who seeks the glory of the One who sent him speaks the words of the One who sent him)

Eze 28:14  "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.

The temple of the Lord has three chambers, the innermost chamber is where the stones of fire are, beneath the wings of the cherubim(which symbolize the praises of the "great congregation" sounding like the rushing of many waters, like the sound of 10,000s of 10,000s)

A spirit of praise opens the heavens for the quickening word to begin to flash from prophet to prophet, and we are a nation of prophets

Let the prophets prophesy two or three and let the others judge..... for all may prophesy that all may learn and be edified....For if one come in and all prophesy then the secrets of their hearts will be revealed and they will fall down and say, "Truly, God is in the midst of you".......for the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

Heb 4:12 The word of God is quick and active and sharper than any two edged sword,....dividing asunder soul and spirit.....making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

When the spirit of prophecy flourishes the testimonies of the saints overcome the evil one. The word of the Lord multiplies and the Lord adds daily. The unleashing of the prophetic word pierces the veil and opens the holy of holies and the voice of God thunders among the saints and the glory of God floods the temple. The city is set on the hill, the Lamp upon the lampstand.

Lev 16:12  "He shall take a firepan full of coals of fire from upon the altar before the LORD and two handfuls of finely ground sweet incense, and bring it inside the veil.
Eze 1:13  In the midst of the living beings there was something that looked like burning coals of fire, like torches darting back and forth among the living beings. The fire was bright, and lightning was flashing from the fire.

We are the coals, the lightnings flash back and forth as the prophets prophecy(by prophecy I simply mean inspired speech, anointed tongues  over flaming hearts)

"It will come about at that time That I will search Jerusalem with lamps, And I will punish the men Who are stagnant in spirit, Who say in their hearts, 'The LORD will not do good or evil!'
(Zep 1:12)

A Psalm of Asaph. God(elohiym) standeth in the congregation of the mighty(el); he judgeth among the gods(elohiym). How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. I have said, Ye are gods(elohiym); and all of you are children of the most High(elyon). But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Arise, O God(elohiym), judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
(Psa 82:1-8)


The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy- God stands in the midst of the prophets when they are subject to one another, when iron sharpens iron, when they make room for the grace of God in one another, then the lightnings flashes among the coals of fire and the judgments/counsels of God are revealed.

So be it.........all praise to Him beyond all the ages when the greatest veil of them all is finally lifted......

The language of the better land is a language of truth and sincerity of heart. James said, "If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain." [James 1:26]

To bridle the tongue is a metaphor, which alludes to the tongue as if it were a horse. In scripture, the tongue refers to language, and speech, or words, whether spoken or written.

Paul said the church is the house of God, and "the pillar and ground of the truth." [1 Timothy 3:15]

Keeping the tongue under control, and "speaking the truth in our heart" are essential qualifications of those who dwell in the "better land." David said,

Psalm 15:1-3
Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?
He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.

Those dwelling in the "better land" are those in whom there is "no guile." David wrote:

Psalm 32:2
Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

For Jesus, a genuine Israelite was a person without guile.

John 1:47
Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

Paul spoke of the people of God as those who are "circumcised in heart." 

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

By nature, man is uncircumcised. When an Israelite male was circumcised, a certain portion of his flesh was removed. The ritual depicted the fact that a spiritual operation is required for humans to be accepted by God, because by nature, our hearts are uncircumcised in a spiritual sense. There is something that needs to be removed. Thus the prophets spoke of being "circumcised in heart." Moses said, "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked." [Deut. 10:16]

David prayed that God would create in him a clean heart and a right spirit.

Psalm 51:10
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Jesus said, "salvation is of the Jews." [John 4:22] He did not mean Jews after the flesh, but those whose circumcision is "of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter."

Paul said, "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." [Philippians 3:3]

Jesus said to the Samaritan woman,

John 4:22-24
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Paul fought against the notion that physical circumcision was needed for Gentile believers to be acceptable to God. He knew that the main thing was the spiritual change brought about by the spirit. Circumcision of the flesh was of no account; it was a symbol of a change in the heart, and a spiritual state.

The 144,000 who are sealed, and who stand upon mount Zion in Revelation 14:5, are saints in whom there is "no guile." "And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

In chapter 7, these 144,000 saints are identified with the 12 tribes of Israel.

The ones who enter the holy city in Revelation 21:27 are people who do not lie. "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."

They are pure in heart. Peter wrote: "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently." [1 Peter 1:22]

Jesus said "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." [Matthew 5:8]

They "see" in a spiritual sense. The "eyes of  their understanding" are enlightened.

Ephesians 1:17-19
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

The eyes, and heart, are referred to in a spiritual sense.

Jeremiah 5:21
Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:

The "heart" is symbolic and is connected with one's desire for the knowledge of God and truth; the "eye" represents spiritual insight and understanding.

Doug

 ....we know..precious jewels are formed of fiery stones under immense pressure in the earth....

   so too..the Holy City New Jerusalem is decorated with jeweled stones[revealed truths of God]

    formed in the fiery coals of Heaven.   Like a rainbow in the heavens..when God promised never again

  to bring floods[waters of dragon] upon the people. Instead the world that was...stored up for fire...the fire.

  of His jealousy...set a jeweled city in the Heavens..that shall be established in the New Earth

    GOD HIMSELF WILL ESTABLISH HER

"So be it.........all praise to Him beyond all the ages when the greatest veil of them all is finally lifted......" Paul L

Amen!

I was shown awhite cup this morning..with a remnant of what appeared to be Mountain Dew in it.

ants[g.i.] had come into the cup and were feeding  on the mountain dew.

  the dew of heaven wetted Nebuchaddnezer[mind of beast..and He acknowledged that God ruled]

[deadly wound to head/that recovered] but his son[that caused beast to live] took the vessels of the

  Lord's temple[stolen vessels] and drank from them...and praised the gods of wood stone,gold etc/idols

   this can only mean/as far as I can see...that beastly kingdom has incurred wrath of God...

  when it took vessels of God's house to drink out of[gi/ants= image of beast] even His remnant....

   that at this time the finger of God wrote the end of his kingdom

I don't know why I was given this at this particular time/unless it has to do with the jehovah's wittness

  coming here and I being taken in captivity by that organization..it being a babylon image[gi/ant] that

  I was the cup/vessel/stolen of the dew of heaven[annointing]

   I know that yesterday wrathful scriptures were given me in judgement on them. :dontknow:

Hehehe a cup of Mountian Dew as dew from heaven, I love His sense of humour.  :laugh:

From what I've been reading from those who hear, great judgment is going to fall on babylon soon. It makes me part fearful and part relieved. It will be a great day when her lies can no longer be heard.

regarding exploits of the saints.  I looked in the dictionary the word exploit..said see explicate

  explicate= to make clear or  explicit something obscure or implied,explain fully

[for now we see through a glass darkly] many shall run to and fro and knowledge will increase. or true knowledge

  shall become abundant.

  Lomorrah,and yet I know His love is with all people...and He shall deliver them from spiritual GIANT IDOLS

[Nebuchaddnezzers image] 

Ezekiel 39;4.5 on the mountains of  Isreal you will fall,you and all your nations and troops withyou.

  you will fall for I myself have spoken

On the mountains? Dew tell  :laughing7:

Quote from: sheila on November 02, 2012, 05:39:05 PM
regarding exploits of the saints.  I looked in the dictionary the word exploit..said see explicate

  explicate= to make clear or  explicit something obscure or implied,explain fully

[for now we see through a glass darkly] many shall run to and fro and knowledge will increase. or true knowledge

  shall become abundant.

  Lomorrah,and yet I know His love is with all people...and He shall deliver them from spiritual GIANT IDOLS

[Nebuchaddnezzers image]

Amen!  :cloud9:

Quote from: lomarah on November 02, 2012, 10:18:45 PM

Quote from: sheila on November 02, 2012, 05:39:05 PM
regarding exploits of the saints.  I looked in the dictionary the word exploit..said see explicate

  explicate= to make clear or  explicit something obscure or implied,explain fully

[for now we see through a glass darkly] many shall run to and fro and knowledge will increase. or true knowledge

  shall become abundant.

  Lomorrah,and yet I know His love is with all people...and He shall deliver them from spiritual GIANT IDOLS

[Nebuchaddnezzers image]

Amen!  :cloud9:

Dan 11:35  And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Daniel 2:44
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

John 12:13
Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Zechariah 12:3
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Micah 6:2
Hear ye, O mountains, the LORD's controversy, and ye strong foundations of the earth: for the LORD hath a controversy with his people, and he will plead with Israel.

:flamebreath:

Quote from: thinktank on November 03, 2012, 06:37:35 AM
Daniel 2:44
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

The legs of iron in the image represent the Roman Empire, and the feet of iron and clay are the kingdoms and governments that arose since the time when Rome was dominant. "In the days of these kings" must refer to the present age. The kingdom of Christ God is now, and it endures forever. It is not something yet to begin. Jesus reigns over all things now, in the present age.

Quote from: thinktank on November 03, 2012, 06:37:35 AM
John 12:13
Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

This depicts Jesus as the king who was promised, who would reign in Jerusalem. But shortly afterwards, he was killed. On the third day he rose from the dead. Then he ascended to heaven, and this is when Isaiah 2:2 was fulfilled. "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it."

The nations began to flow into the church, which is the "mountain of the Lord's house." When Jesus ascended to the throne of his Father, Jerusalem and mount Zion were raised up, and "established in the top of the mountains." It was "exalted above the hills" because it is in heaven. The saints are "translated" into it, Paul said. "Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:" [Col 1:12-13]

Quote from: thinktank on November 03, 2012, 06:37:35 AM
Zechariah 12:3
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

The "burdensome stone" is the kingdom of God, and the heavenly Jerusalem, not the earthly city. It is parallel to stone in Nebuchadnezzar's dream which was interpreted by Daniel. "Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth." Daniel explained that this stone that smote the image is the kingdom that God would set up, and which is fulfilled by Jesus, and his church. 

Quote from: thinktank on November 03, 2012, 06:37:35 AM

Micah 6:2
Hear ye, O mountains, the LORD's controversy, and ye strong foundations of the earth: for the LORD hath a controversy with his people, and he will plead with Israel.

:flamebreath:

The "mountain" in Daniel 2:35 is Christ's kingdom. It was a prophecy in the Old Testament, and also a promise, and the promises of God are represented by mountains. In Genesis 49:26, Jacob referred to his blessings as being like mountains; he said to Joseph, "The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills." The promises he received were high like mountains, as they were spiritual. They were also eternal, and endured beyond this present lifetime, and so he spoke of "the everlasting hills" or mountains. This establishes the prophetic significance of mountains. The kingdom of God is referred to as a "mountain" because it is a spiritual promise of long duration. When Jesus said "flee to the mountains" in Matthew 24:16, no doubt he referred to these spiritual mountains, the promises of God, and was not telling people to seek to escape to save their lives, as he also said, "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it." [Luke 9:24] He was not contradicting himself; he meant that people should seek to enter his kingdom, the greatest mountain of all, and seek his promises. For more on mountains in prophecy, see MP.pdf (http://tcc.customer.sentex.ca/dload/download.php?f=MP.pdf).

Doug

True in a spiritual sense, that Gods kingdom has arrived. but the kingdom of the world still operates and is no weaker today than 1000 years ago.

The stone appears to bring the kingdom of God upon the earth and end the kingdoms of the world. The book of revelation celebrates this victory after Christ judges the nations in his wrath against the ungodly.

The kingdoms of this world becomes Christs and we shall rule upon the earth as kings and priests.

Currently we are pilgrims and have no continuing city.

    Jesus told the Pharisees and Sadducees that they did not enter into the kingdom and hindered those who would

   He alsogave 'keys' to the Kingdom...He also said, the prostitutes and tax-collectors enter in ahead of you.

    where your heart is..there will be your treasure......lay up for yourself treasures in heaventhat

   will never pass away..   heaven and earth will pass away..but not my words

   the Kingdom of heaven does not come with any startling observance......

   entered one-eyed into the Kingdom of Heaven...with the spiritual eye..not the physical one

thy kingdom  come on Earth as it is in heaven.

Quote from: thinktank on November 06, 2012, 03:06:31 AM
True in a spiritual sense, that Gods kingdom has arrived. but the kingdom of the world still operates and is no weaker today than 1000 years ago.

The stone appears to bring the kingdom of God upon the earth and end the kingdoms of the world. The book of revelation celebrates this victory after Christ judges the nations in his wrath against the ungodly.

The kingdoms of this world becomes Christs and we shall rule upon the earth as kings and priests.

Currently we are pilgrims and have no continuing city.

The little stone has been rolling down the mountain growing in power all this time. At the appointed time it will smash the giant with the golden head, a single power that has stood through the ages since Babylon but has changed its methods and materials through time, becoming a confederation at the time of the end, rather than a monarchy as it was at the beginning.

...interesting aside...clay with high iron content for pottery..known as redware......Yixing clay

   cinnabar sand/clay...is very cohesive..........clay mixed with iron

Yes, interesting indeed. I see the iron mixed with clay as confederated states. "Pieces" of iron, but their union has "no iron", it is clay- the commonality of the people. Each state has its own iron, but there union is easily breakable, and when the feet are smashed, the whole thing will topple.

The evolution of human government has led to such a time as this, where so many states are becoming unified in this "clay" of general humanity- formless and void, awaiting destruction and replacement by the Kingdom of God.

AND THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED AND I HEARD LOUD VOICES SAYING BEHOLD, THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR GOD AND HIS CHRIST AND HE SHALL REIGN UNTO THE AGE OF THE AGES.

 thinking on the 'cohesiveness' of the Babylon image...and the stone causing it to shatter.......

    Jeremiah 33;24   Have you not noticed these people are saying...'the Lord has rejected the

  two kingdoms He chose? Isreal and Christ's Kingdom

  Romans 11;1  I ask then 'did God reject these people?  By no means...God did not reject His

  peoplewho He foreknew.

   I perceive that the New World Order coalition will shatter over the stone of stumbling..Kingdom Of Heaven

  Matt 10;35  do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth.I did not come to

bring peace but a sword

Yea

In that day lay a charge doth Jehovah, With his sword--the sharp, and the great, and the strong, On leviathan--a fleeing serpent, And on leviathan--a crooked serpent, And He hath slain the dragon that is in the sea. In that day, `A desirable vineyard,' respond ye to her, I, Jehovah, am its keeper, every moment I water it, Lest any lay a charge against it, Night and day I keep it!
(Isa 27:1-3YLT )

God will raise up the bride at the wedding feast and the birds of the air will feast on the flesh of Kings as they bow before the One who sits upon the throne and kiss His ring :o)

Why have nations tumultuously assembled? And do peoples meditate vanity? Station themselves do kings of the earth, And princes have been united together, Against Jehovah, and against His Messiah: `Let us draw off Their cords, And cast from us Their thick bands.' He who is sitting in the heavens doth laugh, The Lord doth mock at them. Then doth He speak unto them in His anger, And in His wrath He doth trouble them:

`And I--I have anointed My King, Upon Zion--My holy hill.'

I declare concerning a statute: Jehovah said unto me, `My Son Thou art , I to-day have brought thee forth. Ask of Me and I give nations--thy inheritance, And thy possession--the ends of earth. Thou dost rule them with a sceptre of iron, As a vessel of a potter Thou dost crush them.'

And now, O kings, act wisely, Be instructed, O judges of earth, Serve ye Jehovah with fear, And rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Chosen One, lest He be angry, And ye lose the way, When His anger burneth but a little, O the happiness of all trusting in Him!

There is a new day coming.....

(Psa 2:1-12)

The "better land" is the land or country that the author of Hebrews mentions in Heb. 11:16, but in Ephesians, Paul speaks of "heavenly places." It seems this is the same thing. Paul often speaks of being "in Christ" and since Christ is in heaven, in the throne of his Father, the saints also have a place in heaven, hence the reference to "heavenly places." Here I will look at each of the verses in Ephesians where this occurs. They are as follows.

Ephesians 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Ephesians 1:20
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Ephesians 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

The phrase Paul uses is ἐν τοῖς ἐπουρανίοις and this expression also occurs in Eph. 6:12, though the English translation is a bit different, in the KJV, "high places." 

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

It is significant that the very same expression is used here, as in the four previous references. The "spiritual wickedness" must refer to the flawed teachings and beliefs that hold people captive even after they come into the church and believe the gospel. Besides these, there are "rulers of the darkness of this world." These are not flesh and blood enemies but spiritual ones.

There are several prophecies that speak of invaders coming against Jerusalem, and the land of Canaan which represents the spiritual inheritance of the saints, and the "camp of the saints," and "the beloved city." Mount Zion, and Jerusalem were raised up, and established in the top of the mountains, when Jesus ascended to heaven, as foretold by Isaiah. [Isa. 2:2] These prophecies of an invasion apply to the heavenly places which the saints inhabit, in a spiritual sense.

Those who try to apply the invasion prophecies (Ezek. 38-39, Zech. 12, 14) to modern nations are misguided, IMO, as these scriptures depict spiritual conflicts in the "better land" of the saints, in a figurative way. The land which is invaded in Ezekiel 38 is called "the land of unwalled villages." This could hardly apply to the modern Jewish state, and the Israeli West Bank Barrier thwarts the interpretations of Zionists and dispensationalists, who have claimed that the prophecy of Ezek. 38 depicts a Russian-led invasion of the Jewish state. Even former US President Reagan believed this. It is clearly a flawed interpretation.

Similarly the gathering of all nations against Jerusalem in Zech. 14:1-2 applies to the heavenly Jerusalem, not the earthly city. People have been taken captive in tens of thousands of different sects and denominations. This prophecy applies to the church, and helps us to understand its present condition.

In Ezekiel 36 the "mountains of Israel" are possessed by the heathen, and "are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people." The mountains of Israel represent the spiritual blessings and promises of God to the saints, which have been misrepresented.

The war described in Revelation 12 is a parallel prophecy. Here, John describes it as warfare between angels. The saints are not to be at war with each other, but there is a spiritual war going on, a struggle to understand and come to the truth. In the warfare in Revelation 12, it is the saints who overcome the dragon. "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." [Rev. 12:10-11]

Verse 8 says of the dragon and his angels, when they are cast out, "neither was their place found any more in heaven." There is no place for delusions in the better land, and it represents the spiritual things promised to the saints. One of these is the promise that the Spirit will guide us into "all truth."

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Doug

received this in my personal study this morning,Doug...and immediately thought of this thread.

   Haggai...a call to build the Lord's house[Jesus said,tear down this temple and I will raise it on

  the third day].

    v 7 ThisIs What the Lord Almighty says....GIVE CAREFUL THOUGHT TO YOUR WAYS......

   GO UP INTO THE MOUNTAINS AND BRING DOWN TIMBER AND BUILD THE HOUSE SO THAT

  I MAY TAKE PLEASURE IN IT.......AND THE WHOLE REMNANT OF THE PEOPLE OBEYED THE VOICE

  OF THE LORD THEIR GOD...AND THE MESSAGE OF THE PROPHET HAGGAI

   [IN THIS WAY THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN COMES TO EARTH...WHEN WE WALK IN ACCORDANCE WITH

  THE PROMISES OF THE HOLY MOUNTAINS AND BUILD UP THE TEMPLE....

  WHAT IS THIS 'TIMBER' OF THE HOUSE WE BRING DOWN FROM THE MOUNTAINS..IT IS THE  CROSS

  OF CHRIST THAT HE WAS RAISED UP ON..IT IS OUR LISTENING TO HIM..OUR FOLLOWING HIM


    pROMISED GLORY OF THE NEW HOUSE=BLESSING FOR A DEFILED PEOPLE...FROM THIS

  DAY ON I WILL BLESS YOU

   ZERRUBABEL THE LORD'S SIGNET RING....TELL ZERRUBABEL THAT IW WILL SHAKE THE HEAVENS

  AND THE EARTH...I WILL OVERTURN ROYAL THRONES AND SHATTER THE POWER OF THE

FOREIGN KINGDOMS[HE DOES THAT IN US WHEN HE CAUSES OUR OWN IDOLATROUS IDEAS AND

DOCTRINES OF THE KINGDOM OF DARKNESS/RULERS IN HIGH PLACES TO FALL]

make you like my signet ring[seal of Holy spirit]

signet ring mentioned reverses the curse  in Jeremiah 22;24

   and Judges 17;2  Micah said to his mother....the 1100 shekels ofsilverthat was taken from you

  about which I heard you utter a curse-I have that silver with me..I took it[this a time when Isreal had no

   King and all did as they saw fit]Micahs idols

    Rev 22;3  No longer will there be any curse..the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city

   and his servantswill serveHim

 the wise and foolish builders.......THEREFORE EVERYONE THAT HEARS THESE WORDS OF MINE

AND PUT THEM INTO PRACTICE IS LIKE A WISE MAN THAT BUILT HIS HOUSE UPON THE ROCK

  THE RAIN CAME DOWN THE STREAMS ROSE AND THE WINDS BLEW AND BEAT AGAINST

  THE HOUSE,YET IT DID NOT FALL,BECAUSE IT HAD IT'S FOUNDATION ON THE ROCK

   BUT EVERYONE WHO HEARS THESE WORDS OF MINE AND DOES NOT PUT THEM INTO

PRACTICE IS LIKE A FOOLISH MAN THAT BUILT HIS HOUSE ON THE SAND[SEE CINNABAR SAND]


   THE RAIN CAME DOWN THE STREAMS ROSE AND THE WINDS BLEW AND BEAT AGAINST

  THAT HOUSE......AND IT FELL WITH A GREAT CRASH

cYRUS,dARIUS DECREE TO REBUILD..AS A  PLACETO PRESENT SACRIFICES[SACRIFICE

AND OFFERINGS THOU DID NOT DESIRE..BUT MERCY] eZRA 6;11  FURTHERMORE,I DECREE

  THAT IF ANYONE CHANGES THIS EDICT,A BEAM IS TO BE PULLED FROM HIS HOUSE

AND HE IS TO BE LIFTED UP AN IMPALED ON IT.[LUKE 14;46 CHRIST WOULD SUFFER AND RISE

   1 PETER 4;13  BUT REJOICE THAT YOU PARTICIPATE IN THE SUFFERINGS OF CHRIST