Tentmaker Forum

Hyper-preterism says all the prophecies of scripture were fulfilled in the first century, including Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks. But the things included in the 70 weeks, such as "finish the transgression," and "make an end of sins," obviously have not yet been fulfilled. Transgressions and sins have been prevalent throughout all the centuries since 70 AD, throughout the world.

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy predicted the coming of the Messiah after the first 69 weeks, and in the final week, Christ confirms his covenant with many. But in the midst of the week in which Christ confirms his covenant, sacrifices and oblations would cease. History shows that occurred in 70 AD when the Jerusalem temple was destroyed. 

Hyper-preterism has to invoke a gap in the 70th week, to span a period of about 40 years from the crucifixion to the destruction of the temple. Dispensationalism also invokes a gap in the 70 weeks, but a much larger one, between the 69th and 70th weeks. They claim a literal seven years of tribulation will occur at the end of the age, so their gap has spanned nearly 2,000 years.

The problem for both hyper-preterism and dispensationalism in interpreting Daniel's prophecy is that their alleged gaps destroy the 70 weeks prophecy, or do great violence to it. A prophecy about time fails when any gap is involved, as time has no gaps!
   
Interpreting the last half-week as already fulfilled is a difficult problem for hyper-preterists, as the sacrifices and oblations were said to end in the midst of the week. That seems to require that Christ continued to confirm his covenant for a period of "a time, times, and a half" after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD!

The basic pattern of "a time, times, and a half" is based on half of "seven times." The concept of "seven times" links to Leviticus 26. There are four periods of "seven times" listed here.

The Jewish calendar, like the Babylonian calendar, was lunar-solar, and contained years of either 12 or 13 lunar months.

In Daniel's prophecies, the "time, times, and a half" is given in two variants, 1,290 days and 1,335 days. These are different combinations of 12 and 13 month years, with months of 30 days. The 1,290 days of Daniel 12:11 is one year of 13 months, and the rest of 12 months. The 1,335 days of Daniel 12:12 is one year of 12 months, and the rest of 13 months. In the corresponding periods of John's prophecies in Revelation 11, 12, and 13, all the years are of 12 months. So all these numbers are variations on "a time, times, and a half." The same is true of the 42 months in Revelation 11:2 and 13:5.

What is the "time, times, and a half"? It is the final half of the 70th week of Daniel 9. It is also the final half of the last of four periods of "7 times" in Leviticus 26.

In Leviticus 26, God is reconciled to Israel, and remembers his covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in the last period of "7 times."

Now Daniel says the curse was poured out, in the Babylonian captivity, in Daniel 9:11. So that must be the first of the four "7 times" in Leviticus 26. The last three periods of "7 times" may be identified with the three sections of the 70 weeks. In that case, the 2nd "7 times" is the 7 weeks; the 3rd "7 times" is the 62 weeks, and the 4th and last "7 times" is the final week. A "week" is "7 times." But the units of "time" in the 3 sections varies. If they were all the same, why have three sections?

One thing to notice is that there can be no gap in the 70 weeks, if they are related to Leviticus 26. A gap would imply a lapse in the curse, and that God was temporarily reconciled to his people. But that has not happened; any reconciliation must be permanent.

The 70th week is when Christ "confirms the covenant with many." Paul identified God's covenant with Abraham as the gospel in Galatians 3:8; Christ's "week" of confirming the covenant began when he was baptized by John the Baptist. God's promise to remember his covenant with Abraham was mentioned in a prophecy given by John's father Zacharias.

Luke 1:67-75
67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Daniel 9:27 shows that the abolition of sacrifices and oblations was to occur "in the midst of the week." It occurred as a result of the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. But the last half-week continues, as Christ still confirms his covenant with us. So the final half of the 70th week is the "time, times, and a half," and is symbolic, and includes the entire time of the church, in which the gospel goes to the world.

The numbers provided in various prophecies show that the last half-week cannot be a literal three years and a half. No literal three and a half years has 1,260 days, or 1,290 days, or 1,335 days. These numbers all point to an interpretation of the "time, times, and a half" as symbolic. And the ministry of the two witnesses of Revelation 11 occurs all over the world, not merely Jerusalem; Christ suffered "without the gate." [Hebrews 13:12] John refers to the world as "Egypt" and "Sodom" as those were both places from which God's people escaped. The great city is mystical Babylon.

The 69 weeks of the first two sections of the 70 weeks point to the start of the ministry of Jesus, not the end of it. Isaiah said Cyrus would be the one to give the decree for the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the temple. [Isaiah 44:28] The decree of Cyrus was probably given in 538 BC.
   
If the first 7 weeks of the 70 weeks are taken to be 49 leap years of 13 months, as in the ancient Hebrew and Babylonian calendars, the 70 weeks can be counted from the decree of Cyrus. There are 7 leap years in 19 years, so 49 leap years span 133 years. Taking the second section of the 70 weeks as 62 sabbatical cycles, the first two sections of the 70 weeks span 567 years, and ended in 28 AD, when the ministry of Jesus began. The ministry of Jesus was the first half of the 70th week. The crucifixion probably occurred in 30 AD. The last half-week, the "time, times and a half," completes the 70 weeks prophecy. It is the age in which we are now, and spans all the time since the crucifixion. 

Doug

Quote from: Doug on December 16, 2009, 12:48:41 AM
But the last half-week continues, as Christ still confirms his covenant with us. So the final half of the 70th week is the "time, times, and a half," and is symbolic, and includes the entire time of the church, in which the gospel goes to the world.

...this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matt. 24:14, KJV)


...I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world. (Rom. 1:8)

"Their voice has gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world." (Rom. 10:18)

5...the gospel 6which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing... (Col. 1:5b-6)

...the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven (Col. 1:23b, KJV)

1Co 10:11  Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

(http://dl5.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1845/1845605ybphtua86v.gif) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com) A leap through time?

Now that's amazing, considering the third or forth generation.

peacemaker

Which is why I'm only a partial preterist.

Quote from: Doc on December 16, 2009, 04:27:13 AM
Which is why I'm only a partial preterist.

Me too Doc. I believe much has happened, much will happen.  Sometimes discerning which is which can be pretty important, and we need to look closely - who/what/when.  My  :2c:.

 :cloud9: Amen  :thumbsup:

Quote from: jabcat on December 16, 2009, 04:41:43 AM

Quote from: Doc on December 16, 2009, 04:27:13 AM
Which is why I'm only a partial preterist.

Me too Doc. I believe much has happened, much will happen.  Sometimes discerning which is which can be pretty important, and we need to look closely - who/what/when.  My  :2c:.

I'd be interested Jabcat in understandiing why discering which is which is important??  Does it really make a difference?? Just wondering what u think regarding this.  thanks

Sure, rightly dividing the Word of truth.  Some people hate the word and concept, but -context-.  The guy told to go get the donkey for Jesus, was for him to do.  I'm sure there may be spiritual applications there for me, i.e., obedience, trust, humility, etc., etc., but I'm not gonna go out lookin' for a donkey.  Also (which I'll take a guess that's what you may be getting at) I believe some things were PRIMARILY said to the Jews and/or certain other groups for various purposes and various times.  Spiritual applications as well, but I'm talking about the primary application.  I think that can be a difficult task and that we mess it up a lot - applying meanings to things sometimes that may or may not fit.

Did I set you up well for your next point?   :laughing7:  

P.S.  More general comments - I know the arguments about context, how NT writers supposedly "took things out of context from the OT", etc.  However, my position is, they were at that time "creating" (the Holy Spirit through them) the scriptures for us, which BECAME our context.  We're not writing the scriptures today (or best not be  :Sparkletooth:) so I believe we are to rightly divide them, not reach and grab whatever fits our particular POV.  ("are we chaining scriptures out of context to make the Bible say what is really just in our hearts?" - Gary Amirault   :thumbsup:)

I also realize this is a big tenet of Preterism, who/what/when, and I do believe there's much to be paid attention to there - and I believe we've missed a lot of it, and jumbled a bunch of it up at times.  (For instance, I can take 3 or 4 hand-picked verses, on many different topics, and "justify" many things that in totality and in context, the scriptures don't actually teach - "an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth", etc. - really, who/what/when?)

I just personally believe there are still some major things to occur that will bring us to the consummation, when all things are subdued, handed over to the Father Who becomes All in All - and (though I'm admittedly sketchy on some details) there is a process to occur to get us to that "place".

God bless, James.

Quote from: jabcat on December 16, 2009, 05:59:44 AM

Did I set you up well for your next point?   :laughing7:  

??

did u think I was trying to set u up in order to make a point??  I wasn't, just genuinely wondered.  peace.

It's OK brother, I'm laughing.  I thought you might be heading somewhere with it, and it's OK if you wanna.  If not, it's not the first time I've been wrong...even tonight!

Knowing you a little bit, I know you've got some more thoughts on this topic, but it is a bit of a sticky one lately, huh?  Sorry for my bad guess, peace to you too.   :handshake:

Quote from: jabcat on December 16, 2009, 06:29:59 AM
It's OK brother, I'm laughing.  I thought you might be heading somewhere with it, and it's OK if you wanna.  If not, it's not the first time I've been wrong...even tonight!

Knowing you a little bit, I know you've got some more thoughts on this topic, but it is a bit of a sticky one lately, huh?  Sorry for my bad guess, peace to you too.   :handshake:

no prob.  i'm tired tonight, and read too much into your statement.  Good night.

Quote from: Zeek on December 16, 2009, 02:55:59 AM

Quote from: Doug on December 16, 2009, 12:48:41 AM
But the last half-week continues, as Christ still confirms his covenant with us. So the final half of the 70th week is the "time, times, and a half," and is symbolic, and includes the entire time of the church, in which the gospel goes to the world.

...this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matt. 24:14, KJV)


...I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world. (Rom. 1:8)

"Their voice has gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world." (Rom. 10:18)

5...the gospel 6which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing... (Col. 1:5b-6)

...the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven (Col. 1:23b, KJV)

1Co 10:11  Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Hey Zeek and everyone.
What a wonderful post Zeek.
And while you are just expressing yourself, imo a very valuable point should be made about these very verses.

The "world", the "all nations" and the "heaven" of Jesus and Paul were not the same "world", "all nations" and "heaven" of the biblical futurist or partial preterist.  

And no amount of twisting and turning is going to make this very evident problem go away.

Of course if the kingdom which was then "at hand" is now Universal because the end did come because God rains on the Just and the Unjust, and He causes His sun to shine on the Just and the Unjust, then that would explain it all! It's a revelation of the unconditional love of God for all time. When we come to terms with that love we are saved between the ears.

...this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matt. 24:14, KJV)

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:  
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations  for the obedience of faith:  

Col 1:5   For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;  
Col 1:6   Which is come unto you, as [it is] in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace  

Col 1:23   If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Blessings to all
Barry

Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 16, 2009, 02:29:26 PM

Quote from: Zeek on December 16, 2009, 02:55:59 AM

Quote from: Doug on December 16, 2009, 12:48:41 AM
But the last half-week continues, as Christ still confirms his covenant with us. So the final half of the 70th week is the "time, times, and a half," and is symbolic, and includes the entire time of the church, in which the gospel goes to the world.

...this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matt. 24:14, KJV)


...I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world. (Rom. 1:8)

"Their voice has gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world." (Rom. 10:18)

5...the gospel 6which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing... (Col. 1:5b-6)

...the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven (Col. 1:23b, KJV)

1Co 10:11  Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Hey Zeek and everyone.
What a wonderful post Zeek.
And while you are just expressing yourself, imo a very valuable point should be made about these very verses.

The "world", the "all nations" and the "heaven" of Jesus and Paul were not the same "world", "all nations" and "heaven" of the biblical futurist or partial preterist.  

And no amount of twisting and turning is going to make this very evident problem go away.

Of course if the kingdom which was then "at hand" is now Universal because the end did come because God rains on the Just and the Unjust, and He causes His sun to shine on the Just and the Unjust, then that would explain it all! It's a revelation of the unconditional love of God for all time. When we come to terms with that love we are saved between the ears.

...this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matt. 24:14, KJV)

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:  
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations  for the obedience of faith:  

Col 1:5   For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;  
Col 1:6   Which is come unto you, as [it is] in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace  

Col 1:23   If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Blessings to all
Barry

Barry and Zeek say that because Paul said the gospel was preached in all the world, the end must have happened in the first century.

Acts 2:1-6
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

So on that day of Pentecost, when the gospel was preached by the Apostles, there were Jews representing "every nation under heaven" who heard it. Thus, the gospel was preached, and went to every nation, when those Jews who had heard the message returned to their own lands and countries.

Later, Paul and others preached the gospel directly to Gentiles, in their cities. In that age, the gospel certainly did go to the entire world, as it was then known. At least it went to the civilized world.

Zechariah said that all nations would come against Jerusalem.

Zech. 14:2-3
For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Did all nations participate in the siege in 70 AD? No, it was just the Roman armies. Preterists want to claim "all nations" were represented by the Romans, because of mercenaries in the armies, but that won't help, as the rest of Zechariah's prophecy was not fulfilled. Did Christ come and fight against the Romans? No, the Jews were miserably defeated. Did the Mount of Olives cleave in the midst, forming a great valley, where the people could flee to? No, it is still much the same as it was, when Jesus stood there giving his Olivet Discourse to his disciples.

Were the invaders struck with this awful plague?

Zech. 14:12
And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

No, there is no record of this happening.

What about horses, mules, camels, and asses?

Zech. 14:15
And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

None of those animals were affected either.

But, in our day, the church is under siege by many thousands of sects and denominations, and competing interpretations of scripture and of prophecy. There are the dispensationalists on the one hand, preterists on the other. There are Orthodox and Protestant, liberal and conservative, you name it, as many as 38,000 denominations! Zechariah's prophecy is a great metaphor, in which the city of Jerusalem represents the church! Zechariah 12:3 says "I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people." I suggest this is the "stone" that became a mountain, and is to fill the entire earth, Dan. 2:35; and the stone that Peter called a "stone of stumbling."

1 Peter 2:8
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Zechariah's prophecy is interpreted by John in Rev 20:8-9. The church is the "camp of the saints" and "the beloved city."

The invaders include people with no understanding, who are represented by horses and mules.

Psalm 32:9
Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.

Those horses with no understanding, who fight at Jerusalem, will be affected by the plague! It is a spiritual one, that affects the eyes, causing spiritual blindness; and the tongue; perhaps this means they say ridiculous things; and it affects the flesh. The doctrine of Hymenaeus and Philetus was compared to "canker" or gangrene by Paul. [2 Timothy 2:16-18] Zechariah's prophecy applies to our time!

Doug

 :cloud9: I agree Doug........it is a progressive revelation thru the ages. Blessings...

Quote from: Cardinal on December 16, 2009, 08:19:42 PM
:cloud9: I agree Doug........it is a progressive revelation thru the ages. Blessings...

Cardinal,
are you saying that you know of progressive revelation that extends beyond that which Christ himself  called the "world", and "all nations" and that which Paul saw as fulfilled in his time?

Could you please explain the scriptural premise of this revelation of progressive revelation beyond the words of Christ?

Blessings Barry

 :cloud9: Let me give you an example of progressive revelation in action........

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted , the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

Quote from: Cardinal on December 17, 2009, 05:06:25 AM
:cloud9: Let me give you an example of progressive revelation in action........

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted , the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

It is progressive within the transition of the ages. There is a lot of progressive points there. It is not however progressive beyond the words of Christ. As to redefine the meanings that Christ gave to world and all nations.

The words of Christ clearly explain the parameters of "the world" and "all nations" as pertains to "the end". Progressive revelation beyond this is to redefine the parameters of Christ's original words as given.

A progressive revelation beyond the words of Christ seeks to redefine the original meanings of Christ as giving from the original perspectives that Christ gave them. 

Said parameters were limited to the sphere of the influence of Israel in it's covenantal standings. The gospel was not preached to the nations or the world beyond that sphere of influence.
Iceland and England and many other areas well known to both Jesus and Paul were never in question.

Redefining those parameters is adding or subtracting to the words of Christ and to the fulfillment that Paul by inspiration had registered or declared as having taken place in which the gospel had been preached to every creature under heaven.

What is the premise for doing this?
Who are we to redefine "world", "under heaven", and "all nations" because of our personal agenda??
What is the pemise for doing so?
Blessings Barry

Daniel shows in his prayer of confession in Daniel 9 that his interest and concern was about the city of Jerusalem, and the people of Israel, and with the fulfilment of the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and with the words of prophets such as Jeremiah.

Dispensationalists take a literal view of prophecy, and insist that Daniel's prophecies apply to the Jews, and certainly could not apply to the church, which according to them was not foreseen by the prophets of the OT. They refer to the church age as a "parenthesis," or a kind of side show in God's plan, which they allege is primarily about establishing national Israel in peace and prosperity in the land of Palestine.

However, the apostle Peter discredited the claims of dispensationalism when he said that the prophets wrote about the gospel, "the grace that should come unto you," and said that they ministered not unto themselves, or to the Jews, but "unto us," that is, the church, and that they wrote by the spirit of Christ that was in them, [1 Peter 1:9-12] which dispensationalism denies.

Peter's insight can be applied to the prophecy of Daniel's 70 weeks. The city and sanctuary mentioned in Daniel's prophecy would then refer to the church. Daniel's people would be the prophets, and the faithful saints of the OT era, and the saints who believe in Christ, all who are written in the book mentioned in Daniel 12:1, which must be the book of life, that John refers to in Revelation.

The application of the 70 weeks prophecy to the church is suggested especially by the mention of a temple in Dan. 9:27, immediately after the statement that sacrifices and drink offerings would cease in the midst of the last week. These ceased in 70 AD, when the Jerusalem temple was destroyed. Why would Daniel say the temple was to become desolate, after it was destroyed? The one which becomes desolate must be a different temple. And the temple that remained, after Herod's temple was destroyed, was the church.

Jesus said the abomination of desolation mentioned by Daniel would be something recognized in the future, not simply by some public announcement, but by a deep insight and understanding. Jesus often said we need to "watch." This surely would not apply to some desecration of Herod's temple. Jesus had just declared that not one stone of it would be left upon another, indicating its complete destruction. Below is a comment on the meaning that should be attached to the phrase.

The Imperial Bible-dictionary
http://books.google.ca/books?id=ZMECAAAAQAAJ (http://books.google.ca/books?id=ZMECAAAAQAAJ)

ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION. This striking and somewhat enigmatical expression occurs properly but once in the English Bible; namely, in the address delivered by our Lord to his disciples respecting the destruction of Jerusalem and the last days, Mat. xxiv. 15; Mar. xiii. 11. But as there introduced it is given as a quotation from the prophet Daniel--"When ye shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand"--although when we turn to Daniel the precise expression is not found in the English Bible. This arises from the translation of the Septuagint being adopted by our Lord (*** *** ***), the exact equivalent to which in English is "abomination of desolation," while the original in Hebrew slightly differs. The passage actually referred to is Da. ix. 27, where our translators render "for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." This, however, is not the most accurate rendering; it should rather be "over top of abominations (will be) the desolator," or destroyer. And so again in two other passages, which are generally understood to point to the Maccabean times- "And they shall place (or set up) the abomination, the desolator," ch. xi. 31, and "till the abomination that desolates," ch. xii. 11. The chief difference among commentators, as to the meaning of the expression, has respect to the point, whether the abomination, which somehow should carry along with it the curse of desolation, ought to be understood of the idolatrous and corrupt practices which should inevitably draw down desolating inflictions of vengeance, or of the heathen powers and weapons of war that should be the immediate instruments of executing them. There appear to be conclusive reasons for understanding the expression of the former. 1. By far the most common use of the term abomination or abominations, when referring to spiritual things, and especially to things involving severe judgments and sweeping desolation, is in respect to idolatrous, and other foul corruptions. It was the pollution of the first temple, or the worship connected with it by such things, which in a whole series of passages is described as the abominations that provoked God to lay it in ruins, 2 Ki. xxi 2-13; Je. vii. 10-14; Eze. v. 11; vii. 8,9,20-23. And our Lord very distinctly intimated, by referring on another occasion to some of these passages, that as the same wickedness substantially was lifting itself up anew, the same retributions of evil might certainly be expected to chastise them, Mat. xxi. 13. 2. When reference is made to the prophecy in Daniel it is coupled with a word, "Whoso readeth let him understand," which seems evidently to point to a profound spiritual meaning in the prophecy, such as thoughtful and serious minds alone could apprehend. But this could only be the case if abominations in the moral sense were meant; for the defiling and desolating effect of heathen armies planting themselves in the holy place was what a child might perceive. Such dreadful and unseemly intruders were but the outward signs of the real abominations, which cried for vengeance in the ear of heaven. The compassing of Jerusalem with armies, therefore, mentioned in Lu. xxi. 20, ready to bring the desolation, is not to be regarded as the same with the abomination of desolation; it indicated a further stage of matters. 3. The abominations which were the cause of the desolations are ever spoken of as springing up from within, among the covenant people themselves, not as invasions from without. They are so represented in Daniel also, ch. xi. 30,32 ; xii. 9,10 ; and that the Jews themselves, the better sort of them at least, so understood the matter, is plain from 1 Mac. i. 54-57, where, with reference to the two passages of Daniel just noticed, the heathen-inclined party in Israel are represented, in the time of Antiochus, as the real persona who "set up the abomination of desolation and built idol altars;" comp. also 2 Mac. iv. 15-17. (See on the whole subject, Hengstenberg on the Genuineness of Daniel, ch. iii. § 3; and Christology, at Da. ix. 27, with the authorities there referred to.)

This account accords with the idea that both Christ and Daniel's prophecy allude to the spiritual condition of the church, which is the true temple.

The covenant that is confirmed in Daniel 9:27 must then be the covenant of promise made with Abraham, that Paul calls the gospel in Gal. 3:8. Daniel refers to this in Dan. 9:4. In the LXX, Dan. 9:27 differs slightly from the KJV. The two versions are compared below. The LXX is Brenton's edition (Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton), by Hendrickson Publishers. Originally published by Samuel Bagster & Sons, Ltd., London, 1851.
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/septuagint-hyperlinked.html#Daniel (http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/septuagint-hyperlinked.html#Daniel)

Daniel 9:27 [KJV] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27 [LXX] And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple [shall be] the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

The phrase used in the LXX, "at the end of time," is interesting; the 70th week extends to the end of the age. I suggest the abomination of desolation is a phrase referring to the condition of the church, and at the time of the end, judgment falls on the desolator. This does not apply to events in 70 AD, but to our age. It fits the prophecy of Zechariah, about the day of darkness and gloominess, that becomes light as evening approaches, [Zech. 14:6-7] and also the parable of the tares in Mat. 13. When the tares are removed, Jesus said, "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." [Mat. 13:43]

Doug

Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 17, 2009, 06:19:24 AM

Quote from: Cardinal on December 17, 2009, 05:06:25 AM
:cloud9: Let me give you an example of progressive revelation in action........

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted , the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

It is progressive within the transition of the ages. There is a lot of progressive points there. It is not however progressive beyond the words of Christ. As to redefine the meanings that Christ gave to world and all nations.

The words of Christ clearly explain the parameters of "the world" and "all nations" as pertains to "the end". Progressive revelation beyond this is to redefine the parameters of Christ's original words as given.

A progressive revelation beyond the words of Christ seeks to redefine the original meanings of Christ as giving from the original perspectives that Christ gave them. 

Said parameters were limited to the sphere of the influence of Israel in it's covenantal standings. The gospel was not preached to the nations or the world beyond that sphere of influence.
Iceland and England and many other areas well known to both Jesus and Paul were never in question.

Redefining those parameters is adding or subtracting to the words of Christ and to the fulfillment that Paul by inspiration had registered or declared as having taken place in which the gospel had been preached to every creature under heaven.

What is the premise for doing this?
Who are we to redefine "world", "under heaven", and "all nations" because of our personal agenda??
What is the pemise for doing so?
Blessings Barry

:cloud9: Barry, I for one, am personally tired of your thinly veiled assessment of others such as myself, who vehemently disagree with your one horse doctrine (that you ride to the exclusion of other scriptures that CLEARLY show the inherent weaknesses and sheer lack of such a limiting position as is full preterism), as having a "personal agenda".

I have NO AGENDA save His, and as I have tried to point out to you many times, Hebrews 10 says the tabernacle of Moses is the pattern of heavenly things, which could be termed if I could wax poetic for a second, spiritual realities for the finder, which are set like jewels in a framework of His perfect will and plan that is exposed in the progression of the fabric of time, according to the allotment given for that season. Jewels are seldom found from a surface inspection, but must be dug for.

For one, your doctrine does not go past the dawning of the 5th day of 1000 year days, in a 7 day (and beyond) pattern that was given precisely because He knew man would stumble over the scriptures at best, and alter the meanings to suit themselves, especially for removing any trace of personal requirement (the cross), and maturation into a mature son that could be trusted with the things of the Kingdom.

The tabernacle pattern, however, remained inviolate, because God took them in their own craftiness, hiding His plan in the very thing He knew they would never guess, just like He hid His plan and Himself in the veil of the pattern Son until He was ready to reveal Him. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on December 17, 2009, 07:59:32 AM

Quote from: Barry DuPont on December 17, 2009, 06:19:24 AM

Quote from: Cardinal on December 17, 2009, 05:06:25 AM
:cloud9: Let me give you an example of progressive revelation in action........

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted , the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

It is progressive within the transition of the ages. There is a lot of progressive points there. It is not however progressive beyond the words of Christ. As to redefine the meanings that Christ gave to world and all nations.

The words of Christ clearly explain the parameters of "the world" and "all nations" as pertains to "the end". Progressive revelation beyond this is to redefine the parameters of Christ's original words as given.

A progressive revelation beyond the words of Christ seeks to redefine the original meanings of Christ as giving from the original perspectives that Christ gave them.  

Said parameters were limited to the sphere of the influence of Israel in it's covenantal standings. The gospel was not preached to the nations or the world beyond that sphere of influence.
Iceland and England and many other areas well known to both Jesus and Paul were never in question.

Redefining those parameters is adding or subtracting to the words of Christ and to the fulfillment that Paul by inspiration had registered or declared as having taken place in which the gospel had been preached to every creature under heaven.

What is the premise for doing this?
Who are we to redefine "world", "under heaven", and "all nations" because of our personal agenda??
What is the pemise for doing so?
Blessings Barry

:cloud9: Barry, I for one, am personally tired of your thinly veiled assessment of others such as myself, who vehemently disagree with your one horse doctrine (that you ride to the exclusion of other scriptures that CLEARLY show the inherent weaknesses and sheer lack of such a limiting position as is full preterism), as having a "personal agenda".

Cardinal... I think you are being quite unfair here. Barry has been nothing but courteous in every post I've read. Asking for clarification, ignoring insulting posts directed towards him and choosing to respond in a loving way. If you don't agree with what he is saying, that's fine. That's your choice. But to project something onto him that is clearly NOT there is not fair. IF anything, over and over again, those who he has responded to have alluded that he is "not of the brethren", etc.  I think Barry has a lot of loving patience and it shows in his posts.

As his signature says..."we are all in this together". I think he pretty much has displayed that.

Peace,
sparrow

p.s. and no, he's not an old friend. This is not personal. I've only just met the fella. But I think it's pretty clear what type of heart he has, based on his interactions. I am not condemning you sister, I just really think you are misreading Barry. Perhaps re-read his posts through a different set of eyes and maybe you'll see what I mean.

"A river continually fed by a living fountain of water, ends when it comes in contact with the ocean of humanity and their doctrines."

I believe without any imputation of uncharitableness that every person will be awakened under the countenance of the Spirit, and will fall upon their knees (taking a deep breath) in due season; each in their own era.

peacemaker

The quotation provided earlier from The Imperial Bible-dictionary about the meaning of the phrase "abomination of desolation," was probably written by Patrick Fairbairn. It contained the following:

And so again in two other passages, which are generally understood to point to the Maccabean times- "And they shall place (or set up) the abomination, the desolator," ch. xi. 31, and "till the abomination that desolates," ch. xii. 11. The chief difference among commentators, as to the meaning of the expression, has respect to the point, whether the abomination, which somehow should carry along with it the curse of desolation, ought to be understood of the idolatrous and corrupt practices which should inevitably draw down desolating inflictions of vengeance, or of the heathen powers and weapons of war that should be the immediate instruments of executing them. There appear to be conclusive reasons for understanding the expression of the former.
   
Fairbairn made three excellent points in support of his argument. Besides the ones he gave, included in the previous post, there is another consideration; was Luke, who refers to armies surrounding Jerusalem as the sign to the saints to "flee to the mountains," whereas Matthew and Mark mention the abomination of desolation, alluding to the armies mentioned in Zechariah 14:1?

Here are the parallel accounts contained in the synoptic gospels.

Matthew 24:15-16
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mark 13:14
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luke 21:20-21
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

The prophecies of Zechariah complement those of Daniel. Both authors were prophets who would be among those Peter referred to when he wrote, "not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven." [1 Peter 1:12]

Peter's insight suggests their prophecies describe the condition of the church, under the figure of the earthly Jerusalem, or the temple, which are both types or symbols of the church in the NT.
[Heb. 12:22-23]

And so, whereas Daniel represents the church by a temple made desolate, Zechariah depicts the same end-time condition of the church by the figure of Jerusalem besieged by all nations. Half the city goes into captivity, the spoil is divided among enemies, the houses rifled, the women ravished, etc.

To recognize the condition represented by setting up of the abomination of desolation would mean one has come to understand what Daniel's prophecies meant, and similarly, to notice armies surrounding Jerusalem means to understand and correctly apply Zechariah's prophecies; the two expressions allude to separate OT prophecies that depict the state of the church. This occurs in the period Zechariah calls the day of the Lord.

Jesus said, when these conditions occur, flee to the mountains. I suggest he means the mountains that represent the promises of God, not literal ones. The kingdom of God, for example, is represented by a great mountain in Daniel 2:35. God's righteousness is compared to great mountains. The Sermon on the Mount is represented by a mountain. In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus clearly was not telling his disciples how to escape physical threats to our safety, as if it were in order to preserve their own lives, because he also said:

Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
   
Mark 8:35
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Luke 9:24
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Luke 17:33
Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Dispensationalism deceives many who seek that very thing, a way of self-preservation, and a way of escape, by means of a "rapture" up to heaven!

Zechariah says flee to the "valley of the mountains," the one formed between the two halves of the Mount of Olives when it cleaves in the midst, and half moves towards the north, and half toward the south. These represent flawed interpretations, that displace the Olivet Discourse of Jesus from its proper application. This prophecy is not about Jews, but the saints!

When Jesus said, "for then shall be great tribulation," he clearly refers to the time Daniel described in Daniel 12:1, when the resurrection occurs. Perhaps it also refers to the great tribulation that is mentioned in Revelation 7:14.

Doug

Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks was given for the benefit of the church, as it identifies Jesus as the Messiah, whose ministry was to begin at the end of the 69th week. The church is the "holy city," and the bride of the Lamb. [Revelation 21:2]

Edward J. Young gave the following synopsis of Daniel chapter 9.

Chapter 9. Daniel has studied Jeremiah's prophecy concerning the seventy years of exile. He prays to God, making confession of the sins of his people. Chapter 9:4-20 is regarded by Eissfeldt and others as a late addition. But his prayer is earlier than Nehemiah 9, which is more expanded.

Gabriel answers Daniel's prayer with the famous prophecy of the 'Seventy Weeks.' A period of sevens - the exact length of the seven is not stated - in fact, seventy of them, has been decreed for the purpose of accomplishing the Messianic work. This Messianic work is described in both negative and positive terms; negative - restraining the transgression, completing sin, and covering iniquity; positive - bringing everlasting righteousness, sealing vision and prophet, and anointing a holy of holies. Daniel, therefore, is to know and understand that from the going forth of a word to restore and build Jerusalem to an anointed one who is also a prince (i,e., a royal priest) is seven sevens  and sixty and two sevens. We are not told when this word went forth from the Lord but the effects of its being issued first appear in the return from bondage during the first year of Cyrus. This period is divided into two. The first period of seven sevens is evidently intended to include the time from the first year of Cyrus to the completion of the work of Ezra and Nehemiah, and the second that from the completion of the work of Ezra and Nehemiah to the first advent of Christ who alone can be described as an Anointed One, a Prince. During this entire period the city will be completely rebuilt, although this will be accomplished during times of distress and affliction.

After the expiration of these two periods, two events are to occur. Whether or not these two events fall within the seventieth seven is not immediately stated. One of them is the death of the Messiah and the other follows as a consequence, the destruction of Jerusalem, and the Temple by the Roman armies of Titus.

For the period of the seventieth seven the Messiah causes a covenant to prevail for many, and in the half of this seven by His death He causes the Jewish sacrifices and oblation to cease. His death is thus seen to belong within the seventieth seven. Consequent upon this causing of the sacrifices and oblation to cease is the appearance of a desolator over the pinnacle of the Temple, which has now become an abomination. Upon the ruins a determined full end pours out. This event, the destruction of the city, does not, therefore, take place within the seventy sevens, but follows as a consequence upon the cutting off of the Messiah in the seventieth seven.

[An Introduction to the Old Testament, by Edward J. Young. Published by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, Grand Rapids, 1984 (revised), p. 374-375.]
http://books.google.ca/books?id=R5XMn9YZ50wC (http://books.google.ca/books?id=R5XMn9YZ50wC)

Dr. Young commented as follows on the 70 weeks:

The traditional Messianic interpretation entails less difficulty than do the others and at the same time does justice to the language of the text.  Upon this view the seventy sevens serve as a symbolical number for the period that has been decreed for the accomplishment of the Messianic salvation (v. 24).  In v. 25 we are taught that two segments of time elapse from the issuing of a word from God to rebuild Jerusalem until the appearance of Christ.  After these two segments have elapsed, the Messiah will be cut off by death and Jerusalem and the Temple will be destroyed by the Roman armies of Titus.  The Messiah, however, will cause the Jewish sacrifice to cease by means of His death, and He will do this in the midst of the seventieth seven.  As a consequence, the Temple will be destroyed, and the destruction will continue until the end appears which has been appointed by God. The precise point of termination of the period of seventy sevens is not revealed.  The emphasis, rather, is not so much upon the beginning and termination of this period as it is upon the great results which the period has been set apart to accomplish.

[An Introduction to the Old Testament, by Edward J. Young. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 8th printing 1977.]

Let's look especially at what we are told in verse 27. Here we read that there will be something causing desolation, overspreading the sanctuary, until the end of the age. Tregelles translates, "upon the wing of abominations shall be that which causeth desolation." The NASB says "and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate."

These statements imply a sanctuary has to exist, for it to be made desolate. Since 70 AD, the literal temple has ceased to exist. Ernest L. Martin's research showed that the Muslim buildings are probably not on the original temple site, and they clearly are not temples. The temple that has existed, in all centuries since the apostles, is the church, and indeed, the church has become desolate. The "wing" in verse 27 may represent flawed interpretations of prophecy, that contribute to the desolation and confusion in the church.

The saints today are scattered among about 38,000 denominations and sects. And so, the church fulfills the prophecy of Daniel 9:27. I suggest the flood of verse 26 refers, not to a military siege, but the flood of false doctrines that threaten to carry away the church, as John described in Revelation 12.

Revelation 12:15-16
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

What Daniel's prophecy reveals, is that the cause of the desolation is to be removed. Something is to be "poured upon" it. This is good news, as it means truth will prevail.

Daniel said that desolations and warfare have the same duration. Both the "flood" and the "war" are mentioned in Daniel 9:26: "and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." There is also a "war in heaven" mentioned in Revelation 12:7, which represents a spiritual struggle, which no doubt includes the conflicts in the church over the interpretation of the prophecies of scripture. Did the desolations of Jerusalem and the temple end, when the Roman war of 70 AD ended? Was the literal city, and its temple, restored to the Jews? If not, the literal city has not fulfilled the prophecy, and there is still no temple there. But, the church does! The saints have been involved in continual spiritual warfare since apostolic times. So, the "city" and "sanctuary" of Daniel 9:26 must refer to the church!

Doug

Quote from: WhiteWings on January 03, 2010, 01:27:03 AM

Quote from: Doug on January 02, 2010, 11:38:34 PM
These statements imply a sanctuary has to exist, for it to be made desolate. Since 70 AD, the literal temple has ceased to exist.

Perhaps nice to mention:
Rounded to whole years because I have no exact dates for first and last Roman campaign.

28 AD Jesus starts ministry (Sabbath year) ===>66 AD First Roman campaign
31 AD Jesus (=Temple) dies

Hmm.. The problem is, according to hebcal.com (http://www.hebcal.com/hebcal/?year=31;v=1;month=3;yt=G;nh=on;nx=on;i=off;vis=on;c=off;geo=zip), the passover in that year was March 24, which was a Monday, so that year cannot be the year of the crucifixion. Oops!

You could also check out Fourmilab (http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/).

Quote from: WhiteWings on January 03, 2010, 01:27:03 AM

35  AD Gospel to Gentiles ends

It does?

Quote from: WhiteWings on January 03, 2010, 01:27:03 AM
(70th week) (Sabbath year ===>73 AD Last Roman campaign

Both Gospel and war lasted 7 years.

Nonsense! The gospel still goes to everyone, both Jews and Gentiles.

Doug

That dose indeed depend on which Gospel you are talking about,
Well-message... GoodNews of What???

Because If anyone cant admit that there is more than one message of Good News spoken of in the bible, Then there not ready to hear that truth in the first place.
Lee

                                        THE WORD "GOSPEL"

The word "gospel" or "evangel" means, literally, WELL- MESSAGE, glad tidings, or good news. It is so familiar to us all that we have come to accept its application as uniform to us, without question. This is a source of serious confusion, and a form of teaching by which Christendom has suffered untold spiritual loss.

In the Scriptures we read of "the gospel of the kingdom," "the gospel of the kingdom of God," "the gospel of the Circumcision," "the gospel of the Uncircumcision," "the gospel of the grace of God," "the gospel of God," "the gospel of the glory of the happy God," Paul's "my gospel," "the gospel of Christ," "the gospel of the glory of Christ," "the mystery of the gospel," "a different gospel, which is not another," and "the everlasting [eonian] gospel."

To the majority of God's saints, preachers, and teachers included, it is taken for granted that all these expressions refer to one and the same thing--simply the gospel! I humbly acknowledge that, for a long time it was my portion to exercise just such poor workmanship in the service of the Lord, and all due to blindly following traditions! But when, by His grace, I was led to make a conscientious study of the Scriptures through a "pattern of sound words," giving heed to the significance of every expression, my entire ministry was changed.

By not giving consideration to the admonitions of the Scripture to distinguish the things which differ and "rightly divide the word of truth," we find many preaching a gospel which is now in "abeyance," or for the future, or they mix the teachings of two or more, thereby producing "a different gospel, which is not another"--a perverted gospel, the teacher of which, though he be an angel from heaven, lies under the double anathema of the Scriptures!

                                THE DIFFERENT GOSPELS

The various references in the Scriptures to the evangels find expression under five different headings: (1) The Gospel of the Circumcision, (2) The Gospel of the Uncircumcision, (3) The Mystery of the Gospel, (4) A Different Gospel, which is Not Another, and (5) The Everlasting (Eonian) Gospel. We now propose to carefully consider each of these gospels in our study, partitioning them to those whom the Scriptures clearly designate.

                          I. THE GOSPEL OF THE CIRCUMCISION

The Scriptures speak of "the gospel of the Circumcision," and, to make no mistake here, we will appeal to the Scriptures for information as to who the Circumcision are, then we shall ascertain the gospel which belongs to them. The first mention of the subject should settle the matter for one and all.

    And God is saying to Abraham: "Now you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you for their generations. This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your seed after you: Every male of you is to be circumcised. And you are to be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin: it becomes a sign of the covenant between Me and you. And a son of eight days shall be circumcised by you--every male of your generations, he who is born of the house and he who is purchased with money from a foreigner, who is not from your seed. He who is born in your house and he who is purchased with your money shall be circumcised to be circumcised, and My covenant comes to be in your flesh for an eonian covenant. And the uncircumcised male who shall not be circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul is cut off from his people: he frustrates My covenant" (Gen.17:9-14, tentative C. V.).

Let us hear Paul:

    Wherefore, be remembering that once you, the nations in flesh--who are being termed Uncircumcision by those being termed Circumcision, in flesh, made with hands--that in that era you were apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world (Eph.2:11,12).

These scriptures will suffice to show that the seed of Abraham according to the flesh, every male of which is circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, is the Circumcision. In the second place, the gospel which concerned them, their promise covenants, Messiah and kingdom, most assuredly was "the gospel of the Circumcision." Scriptural affirmation on this is made by Paul to the Galatians, saying:

    But on the contrary, perceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision, according as Peter of the Circumcision (for He Who operates in Peter for the apostleship of the Circumcision operates in me for the nations) (Gal.2:7,8).

Here we learn that Peter was entrusted with the gospel of the Circumcision, and that God operated in Him for the apostleship of the Circumcision. But where did this take place? The answer is found back in the closing days of our Lord's earthly ministry to the Circumcision (Rom.15:8). As we have pointed out before, in the thirteenth of Matthew, when the nation of Israel the elders and chiefs of the people, the rulers and builders--rejected Messiah's message, He quotes Isaiah's solemn words and closes the door of the kingdom against them. He then tells the disciples the "secrets of the kingdom of the heavens," events which are to transpire after His crucifixion and resurrection. This is followed by a significant event in the sixteenth chapter of Matthew, which is little understood unless we strictly apply it to whom it belongs. Bear in mind that Christ was not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, that He became a servant of the Circumcision for the sake of the truth of God, to confirm the patriarchal promises, and, that He went everywhere preaching the gospel of the kingdom. After His proclamation is rejected and the door is locked, we find Him committing to Peter the "keys of the kingdom of the heavens," with the authority of unlocking and binding and loosing with the assurance that his acts will be ratified in heaven (Matt.16:18,19). It is amusing, were it not so lamentably serious, the way preachers of today assume that this declaration of the Lord Jesus to Peter applies with equal force to them!

The Lord committed the keys of the kingdom of the heavens to Peter, and with him "the eleven" (Matt.18:18), but to no others. This is the time when Peter was entrusted with the gospel of the Circumcision. This can be none other than "the gospel of the kingdom of the heavens" (Matt.3:2; cp 4:23), which was originally heralded by John the baptist:

    Declaration came down the whole of Judea, beginning from Galilee with the baptism which John proclaims: Jesus from Nazareth, as God anoints Him with holy spirit and power, Who passed through as a benefactor and healer of all those who are tyrannized over by the Slanderer, seeing that God is with Him (Acts 10:37,38).

It is the good news that the God of the heavens has purposed to set up a kingdom, right here on earth, both political and spiritual, embracing all the kingdoms of men "under the whole heavens," Messiah ben David to sit on the throne of His father according to the Davidic promise (2 Sam.7:1-16), Jerusalem to be the capital city, rebuilt with gloriously resplendent beauty, the sons of Israel possessing the kingdom, with all peoples, lands, and countries subject to them as priests of Jehovah and ministers of God, when they shall reign until the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah shall cover the earth as the waters form a covering for the sea. It concerns the good news that Jehovah is going to fulfill the patriarchal promise and restore the kingdom to Israel, the political sovereignty of which was taken away from them and given to the gentiles, beginning with Nebuchadnezzar, "until the eras of the nations may be fulfilled" (Luke 21:24).

                        THREE PREACHINGS OF THIS GOSPEL

The Scriptures set forth three proclamations of this gospel of the kingdom"--two past and one future. The first began with the "pre-proclamation of John the baptist from Galilee" (Acts 10:37), and continued with the ministry of Christ and His disciples, ending with His transformation on the holy mount, after He had been rejected by the builders of the nation (Matt.13:14,15; Acts 13:23-27).

The second began on the day of Pentecost, when Peter, using the keys which had been entrusted to him, standing up with the eleven, proclaims to the whole house of Israel...that God makes Him Lord as well as Christ--this Jesus Whom they crucify!" (Acts 2:36). The twelve begin the ministry in Jerusalem, and it goes to entire Judea and Samaria, then to the limits of the land. This is as far as the Pentecostal commission (Acts 1:8) through the twelve extended, the full account of which we have given in the eighth chapter. Paul was called outside the land and commissioned to carry it to those of the dispersion. But, like that of Messiah and the twelve in the land, it was rejected. The door of the kingdom is once again swung shut for the second time by Isaiah's solemn message, at the close of the book of Acts (28:26-28), and the kingdom and kingdom proclamation go into abeyance.

Just here it will not be out of place to emphasize the truth that Israel is still set aside as a nation, until the full measure of the nations be come in (Rom.11:25-27). Paul says, "...judging this, that if One died for the sake of all, consequently all died" (2 Cor.5:14). Upon the same basis we press the fact that if the nation of Israel, as such, is broken off, calloused, blinded, in the purpose of God, until the full complement of the nations may be entering, then, all that pertained to them--their promise covenants, priests, King and kingdom, the gospel of the kingdom, the epistles written directly to them, as such, are all, most assuredly held in abeyance with them. Therefore, to preach the Circumcision gospel of the kingdom today is to preach a gospel which is strictly concerned with Israel and their kingdom, and now set in suspense until other purposes are fulfilled in God's eonian administrations. The truth of all this is markedly demonstrated to all who will give conscientious attention to what is written.

There is to be, however, a third proclamation of the gospel of the kingdom in the future, after the ecclesia which is the body of Christ has been completed and assembled unto our Lord, Life, and Head among the celestials. It will be during the administration of "future indignation" (Matt.3:7), and "the great affliction" (Matt.24:10-22), which covers the last half of the seventieth seven of Daniel's seventy-sevens prophecy (Dan.9:24-27). See chart in Chapter VI. The proclamation will be carried on by a faithful remnant of Israel, to whom faith and mercy will be shown after the full complement of the nations may be entering (Rom.11:29-32). The Lord Jesus told of it in connection with the great affliction of Israel, by the nations, in the end-time, saying,

    And this evangel of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in the whole inhabited earth for a testimony to the nations, and then the consummation shall be arriving (Matt.24:3-14).

The entire context shows the Lord's message here is concerned with the sons of Israel in contrast with the nations; the nations hating, persecuting and killing, them because of Christ's name, yet a faithful remnant in the midst of the great affliction proclaiming the evangel of the kingdom for a testimony to all the nations, then "the end of the world" or the "present wicked eon" shall be arriving, when Messiah shall come and bring deliverance to Israel, usher in the coming eon and confirm the covenant and kingdom to them according as it is written.

The loud and persistent cry of "back to the old Jerusalem gospel" as a standard motto of fidelity to the truth today, is little realized to be, in reality, a slogan for apostasy! It may sound good to those who emphasize it, but it ignores what is written and goes back and pillages from the promises of others!

                         II. THE GOSPEL OF THE UNCIRCUMCISION

No doubt the question pressing for attention now is, How can we know the gospels for today? To this, we propose to let the one divinely chosen, called, severed by the holy spirit and commissioned with a peculiar message for the nations in this administration of the secret, give the answer. Some twenty times the Scriptures speak of Paul as a herald and an apostle and a teacher of the nations in knowledge and truth (2 Tim.1:11).

After his conversion, as Saul, he was associated with those apostles who were called directly from Judaism--the twelve--and, for the Acts period, he proclaimed the gospel of the kingdom in the synagogues outside the land to those in the dispersion--Jews and proselytes.

In the thirteenth chapter of Acts, we read of his severance for the work whereunto he was called; and, as Paul, he goes to the nations, preaching his first message direct to the nations at Psidian Antioch, where he makes the first mention of his grand doctrine of justification, the peculiar gospel for which he was severed, and which he delighted to call "my gospel." However, it must be borne in mind that Paul, as we have pointed out in Chapter VII, from his severance in Acts thirteen, carried on a two-fold ministry until the conclusion of the Acts period. In the synagogues, outside the land, he proclaims the evangel of the kingdom as a witness to the Jews and gentile proselytes gathered there. After being driven out, he preached the gospel of God-- justification by faith--to all who would listen to him, Jew and gentile alike (Acts 13:2; Rom.1:2; Gal.1:11,12; Rom.1:16,17; 3: 21-26; and 4:25-5:1,2).

Let it be remembered, however, that this gospel-- justification by faith--was never preached by the twelve. At this point, comes all the confusion. By mixing the gospel of the kingdom (which carries pardon, or forgiveness), with the gospel of the grace of God (which carries justification, acquittal, and vindication), there is produced "a different gospel, which is not another," an adulterated gospel with an anathema for all who preach it!

After Paul and Barnabas had preached the evangel in Lystra and Derbe and the country round about, "Some coming down from Judea, taught the brethren that, `If you should not be circumcised after the custom of Moses you cannot be saved'" (Acts 15:6). After quite a commotion and questioning with them, in accord with the decision of the brethren in Antioch and a special revelation, Paul goes up to Jerusalem and submits to those of repute the evangel which he is proclaiming among the nations (Gal.2:2).

From Paul's account of this meeting, in his Galatian epistle, we learn that

    not even for an hour do we simulate by subjection, that the truth of the evangel may continue with you (Gal.2:5).

On the other hand, Paul obtained the fullest recognition of his apostleship from those of repute, as he recounts to the Galatian brethren:

    Now from those reputed to be somewhat (what kind they once were is of no consequence at all to me--God is not taken up with the human aspect) for those of repute submitted nothing to me. But, on the contrary, perceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision, according as Peter of the Circumcision (for He Who operates in Peter for the apostleship of the Circumcision operates in me also for the nations), and knowing the grace which is being given to me, James and Cephas and John, who are supposed to be pillars, give me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we, indeed, are to be for the nations, yet they for the Circumcision (Gal.2:6-9).

At this meeting, James (not the apostle), the Lord's brother, having assumed headship of the Jerusalem ecclesia, decides to make decrees and send them to those among the nations who have believed (Acts 15:19-32). Paul and Barnabas with others are sent forth with these decrees. Presently a sharp dissension arises between Paul and Barnabas. Paul chooses Silas, and being given over to the grace of God by the brethren (Acts 15:40), soon hears the Macedonian call and goes to new fields.

From this time until the close of the Acts period, there is on ever-widening distinction between the ecclesia (out-called) from the Circumcision and the ecclesia from among the Uncircumcision. Paul, as we learn from his epistles, is preaching "the evangel of God...concerning His Son" for which he was severed "for faith obedience among all the nations for His name's sake" (Rom.1:1-6), which he, terms "the evangel which is being preached by me" (Gal.1:11), "the evangel which I preach among the nations" (Gal.2:1), "my evangel" (Rom. 2:16; 16:25; 2 Tim.2:8).

This is, of course, "the evangel of the grace of God" given only to the apostle Paul to certify. It is the good news that Christ, rejected and crucified, was made a sin offering for the world, that He was roused from among the dead because of our justification, and through the deliverance which God wrought in Him, through faith in His blood, we are justified from all things, and may be having peace, and may glory in expectation of the glory of God. Nothing like this is found in the writings of the Circumcision.

This evangel is described in many ways. It is called "the evangel of God" in Romans 1:1, because it originates in His love; "the evangel of Christ" in 2 Corinthians 10:4, because it flows from His sacrifice, and because He is the sole object of gospel faith. It is called "the evangel of the grace of God" in Acts 20: 24, because it saves those whom the law curses, and justifies those to whom no promises or covenants were ever made. It is called "the evangel of the glory of Christ" in 2 Corinthians 4:4, because it concerns Him Who left His preeminent place in glory, emptied Himself, took on the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity, humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross, wherefore, God has exalted Him at His right hand in glory

    up above every sovereignty and authority and power and dominion and every name that is named, not only in this eon, but in that which is future, also, and subjects all under His feet, and gives Him the headship over all to the ecclesia which is His body, the complement which is completing the entire universe (Eph.1:21-23).

It is called "the evangel of our salvation" (Eph.1:13), because it is God's "power for salvation to every one who is believing" (Rom.1:16). It is called "the evangel of the Uncircumcision" (Gal.2:7), because it saves wholly and apart from all works, forms, and ordinances--Paul being the called apostle and chosen dispenser of it "for faith obedience among all the nations, for His name's sake" (Rom.1:5).

The "gospel of the Uncircumcision" together with the "mystery of the gospel" is the evangel that should be preached today.

                         III. THE MYSTERY OF THE GOSPEL

This secret phase is almost totally lost in Christendom today. In fact, outside of those acquainted with the CONCORDANT VERSION OF THE SACRED SCRIPTURES, very few know anything about it, and fewer still are preaching it. When Martin Luther broke the shackles of Romanism, he restored to the world Paul's grand doctrine of justification by faith. We emphasize again, that this is "the gospel of God" for which Paul was severed, and which he called "my gospel," and was never preached by Peter, James, John, or any of the twelve, and neither is it to be found in any of the Circumcision writings.

The scriptural doctrine of justification is not very well understood by the saints today. Usually it is degraded to a mere pardon or forgiveness, which is very poor workmanship, to say the least! We must use care and clearly sever it from "the gospel of the Circumcision" if we hope to get the heart-satisfying message God has been pleased to give forth through it. Justification is God's own righteousness, which He lavishes upon the sinner for faith (Phil.3:9). But "the mystery of the gospel" was a secret until made known through the apostle Paul by revelation. It is termed by the Scriptures the "conciliation," and is concerned with peace.

Our common, or King James version has completely glossed over this glorious truth, until it is indeed a "mystery" in Christendom! We find that in the original, God used two words to express the different aspects of this evangel, but our translators ignored the fact and rendered both "reconciliation." Consequently the blessed truth of the "conciliation" was lost to the saints.

In the Greek we have two words: katallassoo, meaning DOWN-CHANGE, or "conciliate," and apo-katalassoo, meaning FROM-DOWN-CHANGE, or "reconcile." Consequently it should be evident to all that God was expressing two different ideas by using two words, and furthermore, the truth is clearly borne out by the contexts in which the words are used. Conciliation is a one-sided affair always.

    Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ (2 Cor.5:18).

    Being enemies, we were conciliated to God through the death of His Son (Rom.5:10).

In the "secret of the evangel," we find that "all is of God," Who is conciliated Himself, and is beseeching the sinner to be conciliated. When the sinner lays down his arms, puts away his enmity, and receives God's conciliation, made by the death of His Son on the cross, there is mutual reconciliation and peace.

Let us remember that
Christ Died for Sinners:    God's Son Died for Enemies:
Yet God is recommending this
love of His to us, seeing that
while we are still sinners,
Christ died for our sakes
(Rom.6:8,9).    For if, being enemies, we were
conciliated to God through the
death of His Son, much rather,
being conciliated, we shall be
saved through His life (Rom. 5:10).
   Justification,
        Righteousness
             Salvation!       Conciliation,
        Love,
             Peace!

"Many of the saints have never known the stability, the solid satisfaction, the exultant joy which justification itself cannot produce, but which comes to those who use the Way God has provided--Christ Jesus--not only to unburden their sins, but as the road leading to His very presence, giving admission to this far greater grace--the reconciliation.

"Justification flows from that which God has done; but the basis of peace is what He is. We point to the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus as the ground of our justification, righteousness, and salvation. But we must look up to the Son of God, exalted to the highest glory, beyond the reach of death, and to God Himself, Whose Image He is, and find in Him the living, heart-satisfying, everlasting ground of conciliation, love and peace.

"The Son of God, though the same Person as Christ, presents Him in a distinct exalted light. Messiah is the Man Who can; He is the power of God, His strong right arm. His anointing fits Him to do things. The Son of God speaks not so much of God's Executive as His Image. What God is shines forth in Him. Dwelling in the bosom of the Father, He reveals His affections toward His creatures.

"Unless we distinguish between the various glories of our Lord Christ, we shall lose much, very much, indeed.

"As the Son of God, His death does not furnish either strength or righteousness, but supplies the long-lost love link which was left behind in the gloomy retreat from Eden. By all means let us exult in our justification by the death of Christ and the security sealed by His blood. But this is only a means to a glorious end. If we stop here, we fail to reach God's purpose in it all.

"We were conciliated through the death of His Son! This speaks not of our weakness or our sins or anything of ourselves. It tells us of God's side of that wondrous transaction on Calvary. When men killed God's Son, He reckoned not their offenses against them, but made it a conciliation whereby mankind and God could be reconciled and at peace. Let us, preach Christ for sinners;

God's Son for enemies! Christ for righteousness; God's Son for conciliation! The blood of Christ for salvation; the life of God's Son for love, mutual reconciliation and peace!" (Excerpts from "The Mystery of the Gospel").

This is termed in the Scriptures "the mystery of the gospel," and was hushed during the eonian times until revealed through the apostle Paul for the present secret administration of God's grace (Rom.2:16; 16:25; Eph.6:18-20; 2 Tim.2:8). The entire twelfth chapter is devoted to a study of this evangel.

                   IV. A DIFFERENT GOSPEL, WHICH IS NOT ANOTHER

This gospel is solemnly laid on the hearts of all who read conscientiously the opening chapter of Paul's epistle to the Galatians. The epistle was called forth as a result of Jewish teachers visiting ecclesias of the nations in the Galatian province where Paul had been evangelizing, who tried to get them to circumcise and be zealous for the law, according to the practice under the Circumcision gospel. It is the mixing of the teachings of one or more gospels and zeal for the law that produces this "different gospel which is not another." How refreshing to meet a man who gives no place to tradition, but ever seeks to know the will of God through His Word, and preaches that Word in fervent love with an eye single unto the glory of our blessed Lord Christ!

THE APOSTASY OF CHRISTENDOM

Paul in writing to the Thessalonians admonished them that "No one should be deluding you by any means, for should not the apostasy be coming first." Many are already deluded in looking for a movement to come and destroy the Bible, because of which, religious faith and zeal will cease! Nothing could be further from revealed truth than this. The end of this eon is going to see one of the most gigantic organizations of religion the world has yet known, in which faith and religious zeal will be gained by "power and signs and false miracles," when the whole earth will be worshiping! Just now I opened a letter in my morning mail, from a large denominational organization, lamenting the fact that "we have lost our Bible- school vision and our evangelistic fervor!" As a solution for the condition they urge that if we will "specialize, advertise, mobilize and Bibleize, the victory will come!" We may be assured that there will be no end to the cry for "Bibleizing," "Bible- school rallies," "evangelistic meetings" to "indoctrinate our people, both young and old, in our position." All who have entered into the realization of God's eonian purpose, particularly His revelation concerning the closing of this wicked eon, know that neither money nor energy will be spared to keep these organizations alive; for they must grow and federate into a world system of religion, to which allegiance and homage must be paid to the head or suffer death as the consequence! But we should remember that organization and religion is not Christ and salvation! Here is where the delusion and apostasy has come in. Furthermore, the apostasy of which Paul speaks is not with the minority--the few who refuse to subscribe to the various denominations of religion, but with the majority--the vast federated systems of religion with their millions of communicants is the apostasy!

The question now arises, What constitutes the apostasy of Christendom? The Scriptures give the answer. During the Acts period, Paul not only witnesses to the "gospel of the kingdom" in the synagogues outside the land of Palestine, but preaches the "gospel of the grace of God" to all who would listen, Jews and gentiles alike. In his last missionary journey we find him in Miletus, pleading with the elders of the Ephesian ecclesia, rehearsing to them how he had "certified the evangel of the grace of God," and for three years, night and day, he admonished each one with tears, and now, again, commits them to God and the "Word of His grace." A few years later, to Timothy, he writes his final epistle, and gives forth the lamentable words: "Of this you are aware, that all those in the province of Asia turned from me" (2 Tim.1:15). To whom and to what did they turn? There is but one answer, They turned away from Paul's teaching to that of the Circumcision! That was the beginning of the apostasy which organized Christendom has propagated until this day. Seventy-five per cent of the Bible teachings, upon which the different denominations claim to be founded, are drawn from the Circumcision writings, not a word of which was ever written to them! The writings of Paul, the one specially called, severed and commissioned as the apostle, herald, and teacher of the gentiles in knowledge and truth, are given scarcely any place whatever! As they turned from Paul in that early day, so have they turned from him and the knowledge and truth God has ordained for them today!

But I hear some one resorting to the usual confident argument, O, we take Paul's writings together with all the others! But how little those making this argument realize that they are indicting themselves of preaching "a different gospel, which is not another," and placing themselves under the anathema of the Scriptures!

It is not enough to cry loud and long for specializing, mobilizing, and Bibleizing. We must give heed to what has been written through a pattern of sound words, distinguishing the things which differ and rightly divide the Word of truth if we expect to stand before God qualified, unashamed workers and receive His blessed applause.

God has severed the "gospel of the Uncircumcision" from the "gospel of the Circumcision," and has placed in them that which cannot be mixed without producing an adulterated gospel, which the Scriptures term "a different gospel, which is not another." It is simply joining together that which God has severed, and His anathema is on all who do such, though they be an angel from heaven.

                        V. THE EVERLASTING (EONIAN) GOSPEL

The "everlasting [literally, eonian] evangel" is spoken of but one time in the Scriptures, and it is worthy of our closest consideration in connection with the time and circumstances to which it is related.

    And I perceived another messenger flying in mid-heaven, having an eonian evangel to preach to those situated on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and language and people, saying with a loud voice, "Fear ye God and be giving glory to Him, seeing that the hour of His judgment came, and worship the Maker of heaven and land and sea and springs of water" (Rev.14: 6,7).

This eonian evangel is not for today, as all may perceive, if they will but read discriminatingly. It is for the hour of His judgment, and that is in the future day of His wrath. God is conciliated and at peace with the world today, and all true preaching should harmonize with our commission as ambassadors proclaiming the word of the conciliation--peace (2 Cor.5:18- 21). This eonian evangel is proclaimed in the midst of wrath, and does not call upon them to believe as the evangel of today does. In fact, there seems to be no faith connected with it, for it is adapted for a time when grace is withdrawn. It does not call for repentance, for that is the door into the kingdom before the hour of judgment has struck (Acts 2:38). We find the burden of the message to be fear--the fear of God in His most elemental character as Creator. It is a demand that no one be worshiped but the One Who created the universe. It is a counter message to the false prophet, who is calling on all to worship the wild-beast and the dragon, as may be learned by comparing it with Revelation 13: 11-15. The message applies in the latter part of Daniel's seventieth seven (See Chart, Chapter VII), the closing part of the awful tribulation when God's indignation is to be visited undiluted upon the sons of Stubbornness. The message reveals that God remembers mercy even in the time of indignation.

SUMMARY

I. The Gospel of the Circumcision is the good news in accord with the patriarchal promises, to restore the kingdom to Israel, embracing all the kingdoms of men under the whole heavens, with Messiah sitting on the throne of His glory in Jerusalem, and Israel a royal priesthood--kings to rule the nations, and priests to minister Jehovah's spiritual blessings unto them.

II. The Gospel of the Uncircumcision is the evangel of the grace of God for which Paul was severed. It offers justification --God's own righteousness--to the sinner, for faith obedience in Christ Jesus, apart from law, forms, and ordinances. Paul spoke of it as "the gospel which I am proclaiming among the nations"--"my gospel."

III. The Mystery of the Gospel is the conciliation offered in the death of God's own Son for reconciliation and peace. It was a secret hushed during the eonian times, until revealed through the apostle Paul for the present secret administration of grace.

IV. A Different Gospel, which is Not Another, is an adulterated evangel, brought about by mixing the "gospel of the grace of God" with the "Circumcision gospel" of the kingdom and zeal for the law, and holds forth a double anathema on man or angel who is guilty of preaching thus.

V. The Everlasting (Eonian) Gospel is for the hour of judgment in the future day of indignation, calling on all those situated on the earth to fear God, and give Him glory and worship as Creator. It is a counter message to that of the false prophet which calls on mankind to worship the image of the wild-beast and receive the mark in their forehead and hand. It is contrary to all facts of revelation to propose the proclamation of such an evangel in this day of grace.

And Doug, I know you wont waste your time with this truth.
Lee

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 03, 2010, 04:46:36 AM
SUMMARY

I. The Gospel of the Circumcision is the good news in accord with the patriarchal promises, to restore the kingdom to Israel, embracing all the kingdoms of men under the whole heavens, with Messiah sitting on the throne of His glory in Jerusalem, and Israel a royal priesthood--kings to rule the nations, and priests to minister Jehovah's spiritual blessings unto them.

II. The Gospel of the Uncircumcision is the evangel of the grace of God for which Paul was severed. It offers justification --God's own righteousness--to the sinner, for faith obedience in Christ Jesus, apart from law, forms, and ordinances. Paul spoke of it as "the gospel which I am proclaiming among the nations"--"my gospel."

III. The Mystery of the Gospel is the conciliation offered in the death of God's own Son for reconciliation and peace. It was a secret hushed during the eonian times, until revealed through the apostle Paul for the present secret administration of grace.

IV. A Different Gospel, which is Not Another, is an adulterated evangel, brought about by mixing the "gospel of the grace of God" with the "Circumcision gospel" of the kingdom and zeal for the law, and holds forth a double anathema on man or angel who is guilty of preaching thus.

V. The Everlasting (Eonian) Gospel is for the hour of judgment in the future day of indignation, calling on all those situated on the earth to fear God, and give Him glory and worship as Creator. It is a counter message to that of the false prophet which calls on mankind to worship the image of the wild-beast and receive the mark in their forehead and hand. It is contrary to all facts of revelation to propose the proclamation of such an evangel in this day of grace.

And Doug, I know you wont waste your time with this truth.
Lee

Adlai Loudy followed the teachings of John N. Darby and E. W. Bullinger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._W._Bullinger) and others, and became confused, Lee. He beame an ultradispensationalist.

These look a lot like his teachings from GOD'S EONIAN PURPOSE (http://www.gtft.org/Library/loudy/GodsEonianPurpose/GodsEonianPurpose00.htm).

Revelation 14:6
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.

How many angels does it take, to preach the gospel? One.

One Gospel is preached to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people. One gospel for both Jew and Gentile.

Mr. Loudy was deceived. He taught that the Christians of Gentile nationality have a different destiny than those of the Jewish race. It was a false gospel of racism. His theory is thwarted by the message of Jesus to the church of Thyatira.

Revelation 2:26-29
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Jesus promised those who overcome power over the nations, and "the morning star." This is both earthly and heavenly or "celestial."  :Sparkletooth:

We know Matthew, John, Peter, and the other apostles are in the kingdom of God, and scripture says their names are in the holy city. But we don't know whether Mr. Loudy will be with them, do we? He didn't believe he would be.

Doug

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 03, 2010, 04:36:16 AM
                                THE DIFFERENT GOSPELS

The various references in the Scriptures to the evangels find expression under five different headings: (1) The Gospel of the Circumcision, (2) The Gospel of the Uncircumcision, (3) The Mystery of the Gospel, (4) A Different Gospel, which is Not Another, and (5) The Everlasting (Eonian) Gospel. We now propose to carefully consider each of these gospels in our study, partitioning them to those whom the Scriptures clearly designate.

Adlai Loudy's errors were exposed by H.A. Ironside in
Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth (http://www.cnonline.net/~rkmiller/ultradispensationalism-ironside.htm)

ULTRA-DISPENSATIONALISM EXAMINED IN THE LIGHT OF HOLY SCRIPTURE (http://www.cnonline.net/~rkmiller/ultradispensationalism-ironside.htm)

Doug

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 03, 2010, 04:38:12 AM

Let us hear Paul:

    Wherefore, be remembering that once you, the nations in flesh--who are being termed Uncircumcision by those being termed Circumcision, in flesh, made with hands--that in that era you were apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world (Eph.2:11,12).

These scriptures will suffice to show that the seed of Abraham according to the flesh, every male of which is circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, is the Circumcision. In the second place, the gospel which concerned them, their promise covenants, Messiah and kingdom, most assuredly was "the gospel of the Circumcision." Scriptural affirmation on this is made by Paul to the Galatians, saying:

    But on the contrary, perceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision, according as Peter of the Circumcision (for He Who operates in Peter for the apostleship of the Circumcision operates in me for the nations) (Gal.2:7,8).

Here we learn that Peter was entrusted with the gospel of the Circumcision, and that God operated in Him for the apostleship of the Circumcision. But where did this take place? The answer is found back in the closing days of our Lord's earthly ministry to the Circumcision (Rom.15:8). As we have pointed out before, in the thirteenth of Matthew, when the nation of Israel the elders and chiefs of the people, the rulers and builders--rejected Messiah's message, He quotes Isaiah's solemn words and closes the door of the kingdom against them. He then tells the disciples the "secrets of the kingdom of the heavens," events which are to transpire after His crucifixion and resurrection. This is followed by a significant event in the sixteenth chapter of Matthew, which is little understood unless we strictly apply it to whom it belongs. Bear in mind that Christ was not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, that He became a servant of the Circumcision for the sake of the truth of God, to confirm the patriarchal promises, and, that He went everywhere preaching the gospel of the kingdom.

Paul wrote to the Philippian Christians,

Philippians 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Oops! That pops Adlai's bubble!

This too:

Colossians 2:10-12
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Peter must have ministered to the Philippians and the Colossians, since he was entrusted with the gospel of the Circumcision.

Wait! Paul said this:

Romans 15:8-9
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

The mercy of God was shown to Gentiles, because they could be included in the promises with the circumcision by faith in Christ!

Doug

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 03, 2010, 04:40:22 AM
                         III. THE MYSTERY OF THE GOSPEL

This secret phase is almost totally lost in Christendom today. In fact, outside of those acquainted with the CONCORDANT VERSION OF THE SACRED SCRIPTURES, very few know anything about it, and fewer still are preaching it. When Martin Luther broke the shackles of Romanism, he restored to the world Paul's grand doctrine of justification by faith. We emphasize again, that this is "the gospel of God" for which Paul was severed, and which he called "my gospel," and was never preached by Peter, James, John, or any of the twelve, and neither is it to be found in any of the Circumcision writings.

The scriptural doctrine of justification is not very well understood by the saints today. Usually it is degraded to a mere pardon or forgiveness, which is very poor workmanship, to say the least! We must use care and clearly sever it from "the gospel of the Circumcision" if we hope to get the heart-satisfying message God has been pleased to give forth through it. Justification is God's own righteousness, which He lavishes upon the sinner for faith (Phil.3:9). But "the mystery of the gospel" was a secret until made known through the apostle Paul by revelation. It is termed by the Scriptures the "conciliation," and is concerned with peace.

The apostle Peter was the one chosen by God to first bring the gospel to the family of a Gentile centurian named Cornelius. Mr. Loudy ignores the circumtances of this event. It is fatal to his flawed interpretation.

Acts 15:7-11
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Peter says that God put "no difference between us and them."

IMO, Mr. Loudy misunderstands, and so he has embraced a distorted "gospel," such as the apostle Paul would have condemned, Galatians 1:8-9. Peter believed that he was saved through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ. He did not believe in salvation by the works of the law, etc. And the same applies to the other apostles and saints. He said the Gentile saints were saved by grace, the same as Jewish saints!

Eschew ultradispensationalism!

Doug

Quote from: WhiteWings on January 03, 2010, 12:20:17 PM

Quote from: Doug on January 03, 2010, 03:32:16 AM
Hmm.. The problem is, according to hebcal.com (http://www.hebcal.com/hebcal/?year=31;v=1;month=3;yt=G;nh=on;nx=on;i=off;vis=on;c=off;geo=zip), the passover in that year was March 24, which was a Monday, so that year cannot be the year of the crucifixion. Oops!

Full moon was on March 27. (See teh disclaimer on the top of that calendar site)
Plus the calculated day is only part of the story as any Rabi will tell you.

Using data from the Fourmilab (http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/) calculator:

Hebrew date: 3791 Nisan 14

Gregorian: 31 AD March 24 Monday

Julian: 31 AD March 26 Monday

Nisan 14 was the Passover day. The full moon was the day following, the first day of the feast, and a "high day."

Jesus could not have been crucified in 31 AD. The astronomical and calendar data supports the year 30 AD as more likely being the year of the crucifixion.

Quote from: WhiteWings on January 03, 2010, 12:20:17 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on January 03, 2010, 01:27:03 AM
Both Gospel and war lasted 7 years.

Quote from: DougNonsense! The gospel still goes to everyone, both Jews and Gentiles.

Really? The Jesus' disciples are still walking around and teaching?

Jesus still confirms his covenant with his saints!

The 70th week is not finished yet.

Doug

Doug, I will tell you what I will do for the sake of understanding. I will read Ironside link, its a lot, so give the a few days. And I "will not say you are Wrong", Although I do want to ask a few things, and state a few things to "you" but in here others read this and learn good or bad. So these Questions are to you.

Which did you learn (read about first) Loudy or people against like Ironside??

____________________________________________________________

Did you ever read Loudy's story about Cornelius that was written by him? or did you read Ironside's story about Loudy's error of Cornelius? (first)?
I beg you to answer these question honestly...
explanition of Loudy= he does not believe what you said, that is a commentary of what someone says that he believes, (My Commentary) i.e. he believes that All will at some point in time be IN God, as they say, in the end.
All will be ALL IN all.   Israel will All be saved and come to God in the end. He just says it the way the original Bible says it in the original words, which is confusing to most to understand that God DID have a way for his first Chosen people to get the Kingdom of Heaven to come. It had to be forfilled , He had to come to the earth First...And his first chosen did not see or want it His way, they wanted things their way which isn't God's way. The plan of God is and was and did happen the way God wanted, first that God would bring His kingdom to Humankind through a Saviour and that person was His Son, Jesus The Anointed of the Father. And that if anyone actknowledged and worked with the Faith that was given to everyone and work at building your own faith on what was first give by God then All will be saved by the Faith Given By God and worked out by man in this earth life, and to those that don't work out that faith given, then they will be saved in another age, or Time if you will.

Loudy believed that All would be save... there IS just different ways in which God works with humankind and peoples.

I believe it really does hang on what YOU learned to understand " first"

Loudy or Ironside.      Truth seeker or debunker of 4 mentioned

While I am reading Ironside, few days please, push the quote button and highlight areas to comment on and answer the above please and I will go back and check it when I get time, I am busy for the next few days stripping. (Floors)

With All due Respect Lee Damboise II

Signs of the end of the AGE   Matthew 24

v 36  The DAY AND HOUR UNKNOWN 

   No-one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in

heaven, nor the son, BUT ONLY THE FATHER

   As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be t the coming of

the son of man.....

  v 40 two men will be in the feild,one will be taken and one left

v 42 Therefore, keep watch!! because you do not know on what

day your Lord will come

  Matthew 25  Parable of the ten virgins...five wise, five foolish

testifies of woman of folly/babylon woman of wisdom

[seperation]

  Parable of talents..increase in spiritual growth[ one talent is

ministry of death/judgement/tokogae] two talents free gift of

grace added to judgemnet[mercy][or if you like ministry of

death taken away[law]...of the increasing of His Kingdom there

is no end.....thus  5+5  parable of ten virgings, parable of ten

talents=righteous judgement..all men condemned for sin in

flesh, all men given free gift of eternal life through Christ

  Parable of sheep and goats..again seperation of people from

what God rejects...this theme plays out through all scriptures

Jacob/Esau...in evry choice of linage to the promised seed...

  God's favour is evident... I will have mercy on who I have

mercy

Doug,

I am on my way to work, but I started reading Ironside's Bull story, I have to admit that is really explains so much, thanks and I will get back to you when I insert "my comments to it for you" It will take a few days please forgive the delay, working this week.

Lee Damboise II

Quote from: WhiteWings on January 03, 2010, 04:53:45 PM

Quote from: DougHebrew date: 3791 Nisan 14
Gregorian: 31 AD March 24 Monday
Julian: 31 AD March 26 Monday

Read the intro at the top: http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/phase/phasecat.html
And for a little extra info: http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEhelp/calendar.html
And: http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEhelp/dates.html
So the Julian and Gregorian year always  differ 1 year.

Perhaps you misread the sources you link to above.
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar)

The Julian calendar was in general use in Europe and Northern Africa from the times of the Roman Empire until 1582, when Pope Gregory XIII promulgated the Gregorian Calendar. Reform was required because too many leap days are added with respect to the astronomical seasons on the Julian scheme. On average, the astronomical solstices and the equinoxes advance by about 11 minutes per year against the Julian year. As a result, the calculated date of Easter gradually moved out of phase with the March equinox. While Hipparchus and presumably Sosigenes were aware of the discrepancy, although not of its correct value, it was evidently felt to be of little importance at the time of the Julian reform. However, it accumulated significantly over time: the Julian calendar gained a day about every 134 years. By 1582, it was ten days out of alignment from where it supposedly was in 325 during the Council of Nicaea.

The Gregorian Calendar was soon adopted by most Catholic countries (e.g. Spain, Portugal, Poland, most of Italy). Protestant countries followed later, and the countries of Eastern Europe even later. In the British Empire (including the American colonies), Wednesday 2 September 1752 was followed by Thursday 14 September 1752. For 12 years from 1700 Sweden used a modified Julian Calendar, and adopted the Gregorian calendar in 1753, but Russia remained on the Julian calendar until 1917, after the Russian Revolution (which is thus called the "October Revolution" though it occurred in Gregorian November), while Greece continued to use it until 1923. During this time the Julian calendar continued to diverge from the Gregorian. In 1700 the difference became 11 days; in 1800, 12; and in 1900, 13, where it will stay until 2100.

The difference between Julian and Gregorian dates is currently 13 days, not 1 year.

Quote from: WhiteWings on January 03, 2010, 04:53:45 PM
Plus: "There is some historical uncertainty as to which years from 43 BCE to 8 CE were counted as leap years." introduces even more uncertianty.
So great care has to be taken with the Gregorian calender. And of course no mix up Julian with Gregorian years.

There is general agreement amongst scholars, and scientists, about the date of the full moon in the year 31 AD. It is not really confused, as you seem to be trying to suggest.

Here is another calendar site (http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/index.html?year=31&country=34). The link shows the entire year 31 AD, and the dates of all the new, half, and full moons are stated for each month. This is the Julian calendar. In either the Julian or Gregorian calendars, the day of the week and the lunar cycles can be determined accurately. The full moon in March in the year 31 AD in Israel occurred on a Tuesday, and so Passover would be on the previous day, a Monday. That rules out 31 AD as the year of the crucifixion. 

Three independent calendar sites refute your claims! Want more?  :laughing7:

Doug

Quote from: Lee Damboise
This secret phase is almost totally lost in Christendom today. In fact, outside of those acquainted with the CONCORDANT VERSION OF THE SACRED SCRIPTURES, very few know anything about it, and fewer still are preaching it. When Martin Luther broke the shackles of Romanism, he restored to the world Paul's grand doctrine of justification by faith. We emphasize again, that this is "the gospel of God" for which Paul was severed, and which he called "my gospel," and was never preached by Peter, James, John, or any of the twelve, and neither is it to be found in any of the Circumcision writings.

Lee,

This is so true. Even Paul wasn't allowed to preach it much. Paul keep asking for prayer that he might be able to preach it the way he wanted to but preaching this is what got him thrown into prison.

CHB

 :cloud9: Lee.....Seems to me I recall reading some pretty horrible statements about Martin Luther's comments about the Jews. Since the Spirit is not divided, I wonder how it is possible that he could have "superior" revelation regarding covenant, along side such an apparent hatred of the Jewish people?

Especially since a JEW died for us all, as He was born under the law it said, and He wept over Jerusalem because they knew not the time of the visitation of THEIR Messiah. These are the sort of things I ponder........Blessings....

Truly sorry to say I know almost nothing about Luther.

Lee

I found a different interpretation of the 70 weeks. The 70 weeks don't point to Jesus at all. Not His first and not His second coming.
It points to 2 Messiahs
1] Nehemiah
502BC
7 weeks is 49 years.

2] Hyrcanus/John/Johanan
68BC
62 weeks is 434 years.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=1004&letter=H

Neh 12 [ACV]
22 As for the Levites, in the days of Eliashib, Joiada, and Johanan, and Jaddua, there were recorded the heads of fathers, also the priests, in the reign of Darius the Persian.

Picture (http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/1915/daniel70weeks.jpg)
e-book (http://biblechronologybooks.com/bibledateprogram.zip)

The "second coming" is fallacy and never should be portrayed by the Sons of God.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 09, 2011, 02:11:31 AM

The "second coming" is fallacy and never should be portrayed by the Sons of God.

Really?

Jesus said,

John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Doug

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 09, 2011, 12:54:58 AM
I found a different interpretation of the 70 weeks. The 70 weeks don't point to Jesus at all. Not His first and not His second coming.

From A cure for preterism (http://wp.me/p1iV8y-DJ)


Doug

Quote from: Doug on October 09, 2011, 06:25:55 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 09, 2011, 02:11:31 AM

The "second coming" is fallacy and never should be portrayed by the Sons of God.

Really?

Doug

Yes.

The passage reads, "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear THE SECOND TIME without sin unto salvation" (Heb. 9:28). This verse can be rightly divided only when taken within the context of the verses preceding it. The writer says, "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place every year with blood of others; for then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world has He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" (Heb. 9:24-26).

Some have tried to find three "appearings" in these verses, but there are only two. And the words are taken by unthinking people as though "appear the second time," or "second appearing" were somehow the equivalent of, or a synonym for, the "second coming." But this is merely playing on the language of our English version. The two "appearings" in this passage not even refer to the so-called "first coming" of the Christ in Bethlehem's manger, or His "second coming" from heaven at the end of this age. As we shall see later, the Lord has had MANY APPEARINGS on this earth. And here TWO of those many appearings are contrasted, the one with the other, so that one is "first," and the other "second." Here we have His "first" appearing: IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD FOR US. "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands ... but into heaven itself, now to APPEAR IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD FOR US."

In the types of the Old Testament the atonement for sin was not accomplished with the killing of the animal, and the sprinkling of the blood on the altar, the people and the tabernacle; not until the High Priest presented himself in the Most Holy Place, in the presence of God with the blood of the sacrifice. This was a type of the sacrifice of Christ for our sins. It was not accomplished nor completed with the shedding of His blood and His death on the cross. Before there could be any efficacy to His sacrifice He had to PRESENT HIMSELF IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD by His own blood to make atonement for our sins. This is what this verse is speaking about; Christ entered the Holiest, not of the earthly tabernacle, but into heaven itself, presenting Himself, appearing before the presence of God, in the eternal realm of spirit, as the bearer of our redemption. This verse says that He APPEARED in the presence of God for us. This is the first of the two appearings here contrasted, but certainly NOT His first appearing unto men! As we follow on in this scripture we are told that the Christ needed not to offer Himself often as did the High Priest of the Old Covenant, once a year with the blood of others. Only once did He need to offer Himself, as we read, "But now ONCE in the end of the age has He APPEARED (in heaven - vs. 24) to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." Once He has appeared, the first time, IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD FOR US!

Verse twenty-eight speaks of another APPEARING, even a second appearing in connection with our salvation. It begins with these words, "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many (referring to verses 24 and 26 where it says He entered the Most Holy Place in heaven and appeared in the presence of God for us)". Now He appears again the second time: "And unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation." Most Christians believe this verse in referring to what is called the "second coming" of the Lord, a visible appearing at the end of this age. This is not alluding to such a coming at all. The word actually employed is wholly different. It is a general word, and it is the very word used with reference to His manifestation to His disciples after His resurrection. It occurs four times in I Cor. 15:5-8 where it is translated "was seen". The Lord appeared to many following His resurrection. The Lord Jesus appeared to the apostle Paul entirely apart from His two appearings set forth in Hebrews chapter nine. The Lord appeared unto Paul in the form of a bright light above the brightness of the noon-day sun. Jesus manifested Himself to Paul in the form of light to commission him to the work of the gospel. And the Lord said., "Rise, and stand upon your feet: for I have APPEARED unto you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of these things which you have seen, and of those things in the which I WILL APPEAR unto you" (Acts 26:16).

And further, the definite article must be omitted: "So Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, SHALL APPEAR A SECOND TIME, apart from sin, to them that wait for Him, unto salvation." That is how the Greek text reads. The statement is not prophetic, but doctrinal; and the doctrine in question is not the so-called "second coming," but the PRIESTHOOD! It is not the prediction of an event to be realized by those who shall be alive on earth at the time of the end, but the declaration of a truth and a fact to be realized by every elect member of the body of Christ, no matter in what dispensation his sojourn upon earth may fall.

Our Lord Jesus Christ appears a second time to those who LOOK FOR HIM, who diligently seek for Him and follow after Him; not any more as a sin offering appearing in heaven for us, but in the mighty manifestation of His power usward, UNTO SALVATION. And this salvation is the work of our great and wonderful High Priest. This same wonderful truth is set forth in Heb. 7:25 in these words, "Wherefore He is able also to SAVE THEM TO THE UTTERMOST that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever lives to make intercession for them." This phrase is given by Phillips as "He can save fully and completely." Young's Literal, "He is able to save to the very end." Amplified, "He is able to save to the uttermost - completely, perfectly, finally, and for all time and eternity."

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 10, 2011, 09:19:31 PM

Quote from: Doug on October 09, 2011, 06:25:55 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 09, 2011, 02:11:31 AM

The "second coming" is fallacy and never should be portrayed by the Sons of God.

Really?

Doug

Yes.

The passage reads, "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear THE SECOND TIME without sin unto salvation" (Heb. 9:28). This verse can be rightly divided only when taken within the context of the verses preceding it. The writer says, "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place every year with blood of others; for then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world has He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" (Heb. 9:24-26).

Some have tried to find three "appearings" in these verses, but there are only two. And the words are taken by unthinking people as though "appear the second time," or "second appearing" were somehow the equivalent of, or a synonym for, the "second coming." But this is merely playing on the language of our English version. The two "appearings" in this passage not even refer to the so-called "first coming" of the Christ in Bethlehem's manger, or His "second coming" from heaven at the end of this age. As we shall see later, the Lord has had MANY APPEARINGS on this earth. And here TWO of those many appearings are contrasted, the one with the other, so that one is "first," and the other "second." Here we have His "first" appearing: IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD FOR US. "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands ... but into heaven itself, now to APPEAR IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD FOR US."

In the types of the Old Testament the atonement for sin was not accomplished with the killing of the animal, and the sprinkling of the blood on the altar, the people and the tabernacle; not until the High Priest presented himself in the Most Holy Place, in the presence of God with the blood of the sacrifice. This was a type of the sacrifice of Christ for our sins. It was not accomplished nor completed with the shedding of His blood and His death on the cross. Before there could be any efficacy to His sacrifice He had to PRESENT HIMSELF IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD by His own blood to make atonement for our sins. This is what this verse is speaking about; Christ entered the Holiest, not of the earthly tabernacle, but into heaven itself, presenting Himself, appearing before the presence of God, in the eternal realm of spirit, as the bearer of our redemption. This verse says that He APPEARED in the presence of God for us. This is the first of the two appearings here contrasted, but certainly NOT His first appearing unto men! As we follow on in this scripture we are told that the Christ needed not to offer Himself often as did the High Priest of the Old Covenant, once a year with the blood of others. Only once did He need to offer Himself, as we read, "But now ONCE in the end of the age has He APPEARED (in heaven - vs. 24) to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." Once He has appeared, the first time, IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD FOR US!

Verse twenty-eight speaks of another APPEARING, even a second appearing in connection with our salvation. It begins with these words, "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many (referring to verses 24 and 26 where it says He entered the Most Holy Place in heaven and appeared in the presence of God for us)". Now He appears again the second time: "And unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation." Most Christians believe this verse in referring to what is called the "second coming" of the Lord, a visible appearing at the end of this age. This is not alluding to such a coming at all. The word actually employed is wholly different. It is a general word, and it is the very word used with reference to His manifestation to His disciples after His resurrection. It occurs four times in I Cor. 15:5-8 where it is translated "was seen". The Lord appeared to many following His resurrection. The Lord Jesus appeared to the apostle Paul entirely apart from His two appearings set forth in Hebrews chapter nine. The Lord appeared unto Paul in the form of a bright light above the brightness of the noon-day sun. Jesus manifested Himself to Paul in the form of light to commission him to the work of the gospel. And the Lord said., "Rise, and stand upon your feet: for I have APPEARED unto you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of these things which you have seen, and of those things in the which I WILL APPEAR unto you" (Acts 26:16).

And further, the definite article must be omitted: "So Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, SHALL APPEAR A SECOND TIME, apart from sin, to them that wait for Him, unto salvation." That is how the Greek text reads. The statement is not prophetic, but doctrinal; and the doctrine in question is not the so-called "second coming," but the PRIESTHOOD! It is not the prediction of an event to be realized by those who shall be alive on earth at the time of the end, but the declaration of a truth and a fact to be realized by every elect member of the body of Christ, no matter in what dispensation his sojourn upon earth may fall.

Our Lord Jesus Christ appears a second time to those who LOOK FOR HIM, who diligently seek for Him and follow after Him; not any more as a sin offering appearing in heaven for us, but in the mighty manifestation of His power usward, UNTO SALVATION. And this salvation is the work of our great and wonderful High Priest. This same wonderful truth is set forth in Heb. 7:25 in these words, "Wherefore He is able also to SAVE THEM TO THE UTTERMOST that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever lives to make intercession for them." This phrase is given by Phillips as "He can save fully and completely." Young's Literal, "He is able to save to the very end." Amplified, "He is able to save to the uttermost - completely, perfectly, finally, and for all time and eternity."

:thumbsup:
Rev 1:4 John, to the seven ecclesias which are in the province of Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him Who is and Who was and Who is coming,
Joh 15:26  `And when the Comforter may come, whom I will send to you from the Father--the Spirit of truth, who from the Father doth come forth, he will testify of me;

Quote from: Doug on October 09, 2011, 06:25:55 AM
John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Day to day, and that glorious day! 

I John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 11, 2011, 12:44:28 AM

:thumbsup:
Rev 1:4 John, to the seven ecclesias which are in the province of Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him Who is and Who was and Who is coming,
Joh 15:26  `And when the Comforter may come, whom I will send to you from the Father--the Spirit of truth, who from the Father doth come forth, he will testify of me;

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/i-am-mark-schultz/2305843010014560090/?icid=VIDURVMUS01

Isaiah 9:6;
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
                                                                                                                                  Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

 :cloud9: Amen Beloved.....I see it the same way. And if we look for Him (who is Spirit and not flesh, ie. hereafter we'll not know Him after the flesh but after the Spirit), He will appear in OUR heavens (mind of Christ).

I don't have a problem with Him having a literal appearance again, I'm all for WHATEVER He wants to do; but I refuse to be rebuked by the angels for looking for Him in the clouds.....it's been done already.   :laughing7:

My hope is not in that, but in Christ, the hope of glory. And Christ IN US, being revealed, IS that hope of glory. Blessings....

There is a wonder to behold that He is given, by the Father, A Name Above EVERY OTHER!