the 144,000 & great crowd all nations & UR

[marie glen]

The Sealing On The Forehead

I think we know a lot about the seal of God on our heart.. His thumbprint! His seal of ownership, that spirit in our hearts which cries "abba! Father!" My Father!

But in Revelation chapter seven, four angels hold back the four winds of heaven from harming the earth.. the howling wind.. "hold back the winds until till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads!"

I've wondered if this "seal on (in!) the forehead" might be complete clarity.. as far as our understanding.. nothing is out of place.. light shines clear and without hindrance as truth.. all the pieces of the puzzle fit together.. no musical note off key.. Or am I just dreaming.. praying.. hoping.. wishing..

Of course that will be the state of all ultimately, anyway. (So its' just a matter of time!)

I'm always a bit baffled with teachings about the 144,000 that seem to totally miss afterwards the great crowd from every nation.. I guess maybe they think it's the spiritual Israel :Chinscratch:

There's such a separation of Israel and the nations (gentiles) in the history and the prophecies, i've always taken this to be literally folks from the nation of Israel

Especially as, I think, according to prophecy, in latter days, an end time event is Jewish folks coming to believe in Jesus as their Messiah and promised one. "Jews For Jesus" last I knew is a real kool group! I feel there's an emphasis on Israel in prophecy because of the last verse in Revelation 12. [Twelve and thirteen I believe are inserts, total histories per se.] (what does per se mean? i'm probably misusing it :laughing7: )

After the trail of "the faith" from Abraham to Herod the Great, to inquisitions and mayflower.. to later at the very end.. the dragon turns his attention (back to) her (the woman's) other children.. who have the commandments of God and (by now?) the testimony of Jesus.

And then there's that last verse of Matthew 23 where Jesus is overlooking Jerusalem and says "Jerusalem, Jerusalem.. you will not see me again until you say 'blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD". And then there's the verse, as we know, that Paul said "if Israel's falling away is salvation" (for gentiles) "then what shall her gathering be but life from the dead?"

What is life from the dead? Resurrection. And of course, we know resurrection occurs at Jesus' Return..

[wow look at all those r's ..implied (universal) repentance, reconciliation, redemption -- resurrection, return..]

..these verses make me think the 144,000 are of literal Israel and the great crowd is where most of us would be!

I hate to stray.. but right here, in Revelation 7, is where there is written to be a pause. Or so it seems to me. Angels are holding back the winds from harming the earth.. Which I'm thinking should make us take note of the verses just previous. Which is seal 6 (end chapter 6). I think the description of seal six is a combination or blend of two things, what it is at the first, and what it is fully mature and progressed at 'the end'. I think the opening of seal six is (was) the splitting of the atom by man ...But you read it.. see what you think.. I only mention it because.. well, there's that verse of Jesus saying.. who will be a good servant and be found parceling out food to the household.. so i figure we're supposed to share :gsmile: )

..that, to me, seems to suggest the angels holding back the winds from harming the earth is a pause in man's splitting of the atom. A pause during which the people of our Lord will be sealed on their forehead..

Now if the seal has to do with, well, the forehead, what we think? our psyche? I'm thinking surely it has something to do with very clear thinking.

And that surely includes the full gospel message. I can't conceive of someone being sealed on in their forehead and still having the idea of a torturous 'hell' in mind! (Surely?)

..thanks for bearing with my babbling.. :dsunny: :Peace2:

[eaglesway]

It wouldn't matter if they went and had their Christmas family dinner, what matters is they strive really hard to understand the 7 feast days because Christ can only be known through those 7 days, and his second coming is the coming in people who half walked through their entire week.

I know this might sound too complicated, but it is really that way. Knowing the comings and goings of the Temple is to know thyself, and to know Christ who walked in all these days as level to level, a progressive walk that ends in the Holy of Holies.

I think it is too complicated, and also too emphatic. There is a lot of revelation available through the types and shadows, but Jesus is known in many ways through the scriptures of the prophets and apostles- the feast days are only one avenue of understanding the plans and design of the Father...........and by no means the only way.

When the Lord calls us to study something and we begin to see glory beneath the surface it is a beautiful thing, but the danger is that we begin to think that our area of study is "the only path" or the "highest path".

Such a thing can lead to confusion among believers not called in the same endeavor, and it also raises an alarm among believers who understand that the gospel of God is much wider than any one aspect of the scriptures.

[Reverend G]

The keeping of feast days is no longer required.  In reality, it denies the truth of Christ's fulfillment of  the old covenant.  He claimed not to come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.  Similar end result, different method. Christ at the last supper instituted a new and everlasting covenant, the old one is no longer relevant, it is useful for insight, and history, but is no longer binding.  What did Paul say about this in Galatians?  He remarked that those who felt they needed to keep the traditional circumcision should just have the whole thing cut off!
The keeping of the law has been replaced with one command, "Love thy neighbor as thyself".  The law is replaced with the power of the Holy Spirit. Galatians 5:18 "But if you are led by the spirit, you are not under the law." 
We see that the law was a works based way to (hopeful) salvation, but we know all fall short, our works are never sufficient.  Christ was the ultimate sacrifice.

[Ross]

Gal 3;28 "There will no longer be Jew of Greek, slave nor free, neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ."

Colossians 3;11 " Here there is no longer Greek and Jew, circumcised and un-circumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and free, but
                          Christ is all, and in all."

Col 3;14   " And cover all these virtues with love, which is the bond that leads to perfection."

[eaglesway]

No need to put anything away HF. But we discuss things here. We are not "setting the tone" for other believers walks with edicts from our own revelation. Rather we share insights and offer them for consideration, and our focus here is on UR.

George Warnock's "Feast of Tabernacles" is one of my favorite contemporary Christian writings, and I have written concerning the tabernacle on this forum myself, as have several other members.

We just have to beware of being too emphatic in our views, instead presenting them as offerings. We have brothers and sisters here from many backgrounds and perspectives. No one needs to feel "pressed into" agreement with anything. The Holy Spirit will recommend what is true and good to each individual reader as we discuss in a collegial, sharing manner.

But this is not a site for teachers to come and "teach" their individual revelations, it is a site for promoting the glorious gospel of the salvation of all, so....

No offense intended, just making sure you understand the purpose, focus, and methodology of our forum.

[Reverend G]

Let's put away the feasts then.

Let us not talk about a Marriage to Christ, let's not talk of a consummation legalizing a marriage or a marriage banquet. Let's not talk about the double portion of spirit promised to fall on people, and by this, you take away everything we wait upon.

Jesus went to officiate a priesthood and every year he officiates on those feast days. Salvation is very simple, there is no denying the mercy of God and how simple it is to understand, but when we talk of reward, we speak of something else and this is why many betrothed will wail and weep standing on the outside saying," Open to us."

I say that knowing Jesus is all about knowing the feasts because all of the parables of Jesus and the book of Revelation hangs upon the 7 feasts and if you do not know the feasts, you may as well put the book of Revelation down and you should skip over every parable of Jesus because there are no  Paul said the feast were a thing to come because the Passover is still to come, unleavened bread is still to come, firstfruits is still to come, Shavuot is still to come, because Rosh Hashanah is still to come, Sukkot is still to come and Shemini Atzereth are still to come and we are to keep all these days in truth and in spirit, not by the actual going to Jerusalem to build a Sukkah, but that we walk a lifestyle in Passover dying daily, and we walk a lifestyle in Sukkot, but all of these days are coming.

Ezekiel shows all the feast days taking place on one single day, on Nisan 14, and then he shows that there has to be a repeat of this event where all the feast days will happen on Tishri 15th.

Believe it or not, nobody has consummated the marriage to Christ but we are taught to prepare, and believe it or not, nobody has experienced the double portion of spirit promised on the last day of Sukkot but the prophets speak of this days on Tishri 15 when the Lord will come with all his saints and this is the feast of Tabernacles waiting to be fulfilled.

The comings of the Lord is as the rain, two comings and two promises of receiving a spirit. Jesus came and finished the spring Passover season but if he would have fulfilled the Sukkot fall season, men would be walking around like gods right now.

Jesus said that whoever keeps the laws and teaches other to keep the law will be the greatest in the kingdom.

Is this right or wrong?

Jesus was wrong?

He was mistaken?

Jesus was right, as He had not yet fulfilled the law.  Once He did, everything changes.
We see in James 5:20 a mirroring of Paul's opinion in Galatians, that either you keep the whole law, or none at all.
"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
I am unaware of a Christian sect which holds to laws of kosher or circumcision, for instance. Messianic Jews I would consider a hybrid Judeo-Christian amalgam.
We see also in the Gospel that Christ did not add to the covenant with the Jews, He inaugurated a new, everlasting covenant.  I am a follower of the new covenant, not the old.  Christ fulfills the old covenant with just the Jews, and includes all in the new covenant.  The old covenant is still useful for study, but we are not bound by it. 
Just my take.

[marie glen]

Jesus was right, as He had not yet fulfilled the law.  Once He did, everything changes.
We see in James 5:20 a mirroring of Paul's opinion in Galatians, that either you keep the whole law, or none at all.
"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
I am unaware of a Christian sect which holds to laws of kosher or circumcision, for instance. Messianic Jews I would consider a hybrid Judeo-Christian amalgam.
We see also in the Gospel that Christ did not add to the covenant with the Jews, He inaugurated a new, everlasting covenant.  I am a follower of the new covenant, not the old.  Christ fulfills the old covenant with just the Jews, and includes all in the new covenant.  The old covenant is still useful for study, but we are not bound by it. 
Just my take.

Amen... the feasts are types and shadows.. of which we probably don't understand it all fully - as with many things.
(And as was the law, a type and shadow // "LOVE works NO ill" :banana: :cloud9: and no reason for humans to 'lord' it over one another in any way)..

There's also the thought that the ancient feasts (Lev 23) are a type of prophecy.

In that Jesus was the Passover Lamb, was the unleavened bread buried/in the oven, the cave/tomb.. and was the "firstfruits" (1st rising) at which feast was the waving of one barley sheaf.

And which I believe goes along with 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 (condensed) Amplified Version - (3 measures of meal?)
"22 For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then those who are Christ's [own will be resurrected with incorruptible, immortal bodies] at His coming. 24 Then comes the end (completion), when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father, so that God may be all in all [manifesting His glory without any opposition, the supreme indwelling and controlling factor of life]." Of all life.. i don't believe this leaves any room for a full to the brim pit of torments!

I can't help but think if the Spring Holy Days were fulfilled by His first advent, then it stands to reason (imo:) that His long 2nd advent will fulfill the ancient Fall Holy Days of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and Tabernacles. And to me, this pattern, more or less 'proves' U.R.
Just my :2c: :gsmile:

[eaglesway]

All very interesting and enjoyed reading it. My earlier response was to certain statements, such as...

It wouldn't matter if they went and had their Christmas family dinner, what matters is they strive really hard to understand the 7 feast days because Christ can only be known through those 7 days, and his second coming is the coming in people who half walked through their entire week.

I know this might sound too complicated, but it is really that way. Knowing the comings and goings of the Temple is to know thyself, and to know Christ who walked in all these days as level to level, a progressive walk that ends in the Holy of Holies.

While I understand that you are saying these represent stages in the believers walk with and growth in Christ, the statement "Jesus can only be known through these 7 days" goes beyond  the pale of what is acceptable on a forum for purposed towards sharing the Victorious Gospel.

Better to engage a tone that says, "This is something I have seen in the Word, here it is for your consideration and hopefully, edification."

You are making a lot of imperative statements about the things you are presenting, and whether you consider yourself a teacher or not, you are presenting them as teachings in an emphatic way.....

No need to be defensive or offended, I am just trying to help you understand how the forum works, because you have good things to offer, and I dont really want to have to moderate them if it is avoidable.

But a wise man, when instructed, takes some time to consider the offerred counsel and adjusts his way if he considers it applicable. He doesnt just give a momentary acknowledgement and then get right back to doing what he was doing in exactly the same way.

[eaglesway]

Peace brother, we are all learning together. :o)

[jabcat]

Amen.