Souls Under the Altar

[jabcat]

Thanks for the responses.

Gleaning a few summary thoughts from various posts;

metaphorical 

literal people, martyrs - future event

a picture of what is beginning to happen now, perhaps literal people, perhaps a picture of the flesh/old man/old system dying, being destroyed

tied into the last statement;  not an end, but a beginning, and maybe difficult for most to understand, as tied into the feasts of which (most?) Christians have limited knowledge

(I'm probably missing some)
-------

If literal, then they certainly "know something".  To fit with the absolute "the dead know nothing" view, it must be explained as figurative?

[WhiteWings]

If literal, then they certainly "know something".  To fit with the absolute "the dead know nothing" view, it must be explained as figurative?

Must martyrs be dead?

I think a large component of being a martyr is that he/she stops spreading the word of God. So what about a high profile preacher that gets locked up in a cold dark lonely cell for the rest of his/her life by an oppressive regime? Is that a martyr too? Such a person would know something.
The martyrs are at the base of the altar of sacrifice. Is the only sacrifice their life?

It's not something religious but it's a clear example so I use it:A great surgeon who makes truckloads of money gives up his fancy job in the west and becomes a severely underpaid doctor in the most poor area of Africa. He/she made a sacrifice.

[WhiteWings]

I think beheaded shouldn't be taken to literal. Jesus wasn't beheaded but died for His faith. As many of His followers did. The majority wasn't beheaded. Stoned, crucified, fed to the lions in an arena, etc
None of them are among the saints at the Altar?

Also consider "head" is a term for authority. So beheaded possibly also means authority taken away. For example God gave them a ministry. For me, if God gives someone a ministry He gives that person the authority to speak, act in His name. For example the authority to heal with God's power/assistance.
If a man made law forbids such healings the power is taken away. Beheaded.
:dontknow:

[rosered]

Thanks for the responses.

Gleaning a few summary thoughts from various posts;

metaphorical 

literal people, martyrs - future event

a picture of what is beginning to happen now, perhaps literal people, perhaps a picture of the flesh/old man/old system dying, being destroyed

tied into the last statement;  not an end, but a beginning, and maybe difficult for most to understand, as tied into the feasts of which (most?) Christians have limited knowledge

(I'm probably missing some)
-------

If literal, then they certainly "know something".  To fit with the absolute "the dead know nothing" view, it must be explained as figurative?

  Hi Bro James

   I for one   take the scriptures of Solomon  , a wise man  of the earthly things and   wisdom of the world / under the sun
   But Jesus Christ is    the Wisdom of God and ALL THINGS !
under the  sun  , the unseen and   earth  and Heaven and above , that is all things

   the verse that is tripping up   so many as I see it is this     whoever is Joined to the Living    IS JESUS CHRIST    and they never Dies because they are with Him and  the Knowledge of God is living works   the Light has come     the DAY IS HERE     , not dead works    nor dead  any longer 

all Live to Him   and for Him and though Him     , that   is a  lot of Living if you ask me 

  it was not till the appointed time when those   scriptures though useful are becoming obsolete  or outdated

  we Live in the NOW   THE LIGHT OF CHRIST  opposed to the '' dead in sin and trespass ''      and under the sun

  the verse that helped me was  in the Sun  ,  no longer under the sun  / Light of Christ              Rev 12   the woman clothed with  the Sun  / same as Clothed in Christ     

    and Rev 19    And I saw an angel/messenger  standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid heaven, Come and be gathered together unto the great supper of God;

Noted     Solomon  prophetic   in   knowing that    Jesus Christ is being joined with the Living   GOD
 
   
  Ecc 9 4For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion.

5For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything,

nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.


6Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished,

and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.

and we are  told NOT   to    be of the world    , be in it  but not of it   , Solomon was  an example of  many   errors /sins by many wives and concubines  and  idols of the heart      and was miserable    in his old age
  he  saw all youth as vanity and for nothing  in    song of Solomon   pursuing   love
    Proverbs      in   the worldly endeavors  and     Ecc    Solomons wisdom was    the worldly things  just  make you    become old and tired .

So I see its not good to hold on to that wisdom as all there is ,and faith only in this beginning of Wisdom  ,  we have a much better hope    in this day , than that day      and the Wisdom of God     though Jesus Christ,  the end of our faith   and the righteousness of God     though the seed and one of a kind Son !

  perhaps  to build on  yes , but by no means   to finish  our faith in it , Only the GOD of the Lord Jesus Christ as it is written    this is our DAY and hour

to Shine in Christ

  :dsunny:

[Molly]

I do believe now that there will be a rapture.  The church will be removed before the 3.5 years of the great Tribulation begins because 1)that event is all about the Jews, and 2) we are not subject to wrath.   The main event in the book of Revelation is the opening of the seals which have sealed up the will.

The Lamb Takes the Scroll

5 And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals.  2 Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?"  3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.

4 So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it.  5 But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals."

6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.  7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

--Rev 5


I'm thinking now that the rapture will take place between the 6th and 7th seal, which puts it at our door.  When the 7th seal opens, the judgments start pouring down on the earth as trumpets, bowls, and woes.   The 7th seal opening announces the contents of the will and the beneficiaries who will inherit, and now it's time for them to take their rightful place on the earth.  This was always the plan.


10'Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.

--Mat 6



And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

--Luke 21:28




Enoch, who lived in the seventh generation after Adam, prophesied about these people. He said, "Listen! The Lord is coming with countless thousands of His holy ones.

--Jude 1:14




Worthy Is The Lamb

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mvwdn4WStcQ

[Tom]

"Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation. For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him. For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first. Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[micah7:9]

I do not have a thought as to what/who the "souls/breaths" under the alter maybe.  I do believe that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is of more a spiritual understanding than literal or as some say figuratively. As I asked in a post of my own, who/what are the spirits in prison(1 Pet. 3:19) to this as well I have no better understanding, I am grateful for all input.

Heb 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises......
Psa. 104: 29 You conceal Your face; they are filled with panic.
You gather away their spirit; they breathe their last
And return to their soil.  Psa 104:29  Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
Ecc 12:7  And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it.
Ecc. 12: 7 And the soil returns onto the earth just as it was,
And the spirit, it returns to the One, Elohim, Who gave it. (In my opinion that spirit is breath)

When man dies he becomes dead, no breath/spirit, all in the OT have died, but we can single out those who died in faith, not receiving the promises, but they are still dead. Since Jesus Christ a good many have died, knowing the promises and JESUS CHRIST who gifted us with GRACE through FAITH, but died dead.
Because of Grace and Faith all those who died being found, drawn to Jesus by the Father, have died, being born again from above, are in the process of being saved, and because of Grace and His Faith, we are accounted dead... Rom 6:3  And do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Rom 6:11  Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin,but alive unto God in Christ Jesus.   
The way I understand it, without knowing Jesus Christ, we are dead to sin but those in Christ are alive in Christ awaiting our physical death and the rising again(the resurrection of/from the dead (Phil. 3:11.)  When a living soul dies, expires, quits breathing the breath, they are dead and begin to return to the soil, dust, earth, awaiting the resurrection of the dead. The Creator holds, with knowledge, all the breaths/spirit that return just as He knows the number of hairs on each head and the names of every star existing now or that burned out.
Job 14:14  If a man dieth--doth he revive? All days of my warfare I wait, till my change come.
Job 14:15  Thou dost call, and I--I answer Thee; To the work of Thy hands Thou hast desire. ....................The "call" will be for the just and the unjust.


I,( imo) believe the phrases "spiritually dead or dead spiritually" does not apply to the believer, and wrong to use. Col. 3:3  For ye died, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 1Th 4:16  ..... and the dead in Christ shall rise first,
Do I stand in wonder about 1Th 4:17  then we who are living, who are remaining over.....Yes.
I wrote this post in hopes to get a clearer understanding in my mind by writing my thoughts and belief. Pro 4:7  Wisdom(Jesus) is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.  Thank you

[ed]

Great Micah7:9

I'm with you on the spiritual perspective of Revelation.

We figuratively were slain with Christ, yet we live!  And another!

:peace:

[WhiteWings]

I do not have a thought as to what/who the "souls/breaths" under the alter maybe.

You do :-)

I do believe that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is of more a spiritual understanding than literal or as some say figuratively.

I believe it's wise not to make firm statements until you understand Revelation.
It's not just you but something I see among many Christians is that when they don't understand something, they play the "it's spiritual" card; which for me equals "Let's get rid of another inconvenient truth; let's burn another chapter of the Bible".

Just because they concluded for themselves the OT people got all the literal things and the NT people all spiritual things they ignore everything that may even hint toward literal NT events.
Doesn't the Bible teach the literal things testify about the spiritual things? Or even other literal things.
The lamb is the most known example of this. A literal animal-lamb setting a pattern for a literal Jesus-Lamb, setting a pattern for spiritual works of Jesus.

As I asked in a post of my own, who/what are the spirits in prison(1 Pet. 3:19) to this as well I have no better understanding, I am grateful for all input.

I think you don't really want any input because every topic with soul or spirit in it, eventually makes you point to the Genesis verse about living soul. You are entitled to your view, but sticking to that/any view obviously means nothing changes.

Because of Grace and Faith all those who died being found, drawn to Jesus by the Father, have died, being born again from above,

I,( imo) believe the phrases "spiritually dead or dead spiritually" does not apply to the believer, and wrong to use. Col. 3:3

Looking at your two quotes, death also applies to the believer. All believers were dead once. Dead believers (no faith + works) aren't believers at all. Spiritually dead people are possible, spiritually dead believers don't exist.

[WhiteWings]

My point with the above is, that Revelation has with 100% certainty a literal interpretation. It's also very clear, to me, it's following the daily Temple worship pattern and the marriage customs. Sure it can be argued that those things (marriage+temple) won't literally happen again and Revelation is just following the pattern laid out millennia ago, (there is stuff that hints to the contrary) but still the pattern has to be understood to (better) understand Revelation.
I see the same things happening all over again. Ancient Jews had very good reasons to assume Jesus was not the Messiah. They had verses/laws to prove it. They were very wrong. They got tangled in the letter of the law. The same is happening again right now (right here). When things are to difficult, just claim they are spiritual, cook up an explanation and get a warm fuzzy feeling. If that doesn't work, just kill it with the letter of the law. Yeah that letter includes the NT. Bury each other under out of context verses. Because many refuse to study, and equally important admit they just don't understand; they invent their own doctrine and find verses supporting their thoughts. That's how so many doctrines were born. That's why ET can be proven with verses. Because verses are used as a blue print for religion. Well they are not. They are building blocks.
The way I see it....
a] The Chief Architect (Father) has a plan to build a house (family)
b] He draws up a rough sketch His house in His mind. Number of rooms, size, that sorta stuff. (salvation plan)
c] Then the Chief Architect draws some blue prints detailing the house. The blue prints are the God ordained feasts, the God ordained Temple rituals, the God ordained marriage customs, etc
d] Finally the Chief Architect writes down a list with building materials, building blocks (verses) to explain others how the house should look like when it's done.

What, imo, is constantly happening is that many Christians believe Father has some sort of plan (a) but they are not aware any blue prints (b, c) exist so they are just start building with the materials (d) they find on the construction site. The result is that they all build different houses (doctrines). None of them look like the house the Chief Architect designed. Some are better than others. Many building materials (verses) aren't used correctly even if they form a (sometimes) nice room. But never according to plan. Lot's of building material seems not to fit in the house. It's discarded (verses spiritualized away)

And me? I'm the weird contractor with construction site with the least activity. I'm still searching for the blue prints and trying to understand the ones I find. I may get fired (die) before the house is ready, but if the Chief Architect grants me enough time I think my house will be pretty close to point a.... 
At least I will have tried to build the house according to the client's specs instead of my own preferences.
:winkgrin:


:soap:

[ed]

And yet I show you a more perfect way.

Yes WW I agree, we do make our own doctrines(houses).  It is often much better then following the erroneous doctrines of the experts who are sure that they are correct, and yet miss the mark.

It has been a good discussion though.  Glad you posted it.

:thumbsup:

[Tom]

I think God's "house" is the ecclesia (1 Timothy 3:15), but I still don't think of anybody as "spiritually dead" because spirit is the power of life.

[rosered]

And yet I show you a more perfect way.

Yes WW I agree, we do make our own doctrines(houses).  It is often much better then following the erroneous doctrines of the experts who are sure that they are correct, and yet miss the mark.

It has been a good discussion though.  Glad you posted it.

:thumbsup:

   Yes we do the best we can   and without the Spirit of Christ we are not going to anything   good  for sure  :flowerred:

[rosered]

I think God's "house" is the ecclesia (1 Timothy 3:15), but I still don't think of anybody as "spiritually dead" because spirit is the power of life.

  you can have a spirit in you brother ,all do , but not every spirit working in mankind  is Christ's Spirit      and that to me is the error

And that spirit working   in mankind is anti-Christ

[WhiteWings]

And yet I show you a more perfect way.

Yes WW I agree, we do make our own doctrines(houses).  It is often much better then following the erroneous doctrines of the experts who are sure that they are correct, and yet miss the mark.

It has been a good discussion though.  Glad you posted it.

:thumbsup:

Only the house Jesus is building will be according to the specs.
All others will fail. But that doesn't mean we can't try. And every good try involves reading what the client wants...

[micah7:9]

I do not have a thought as to what/who the "souls/breaths" under the alter maybe.

You do :-)
I do not :)

I do believe that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is of more a spiritual understanding than literal or as some say figuratively.

I believe it's wise not to make firm statements until you understand Revelation.
It's not just you but something I see among many Christians is that when they don't understand something, they play the "it's spiritual" card; which for me equals "Let's get rid of another inconvenient truth; let's burn another chapter of the Bible".

When a truth is a truth.....it is a truth. So you understand Revelation because you make statements.

Just because they concluded for themselves the OT people got all the literal things and the NT people all spiritual things they ignore everything that may even hint toward literal NT events.
I do not believe the OT is all that literal, I believe the OT stories were written in the literal mode, but are to be discerned through the spirit.

Doesn't the Bible teach the literal things testify about the spiritual things? Or even other literal things.  First the natural then the spiritual.

The lamb is the most known example of this. A literal animal-lamb setting a pattern for a literal Jesus-Lamb, setting a pattern for spiritual works of Jesus.

As I asked in a post of my own, who/what are the spirits in prison(1 Pet. 3:19) to this as well I have no better understanding, I am grateful for all input.

I think you don't really want any input because every topic with soul or spirit in it, eventually makes you point to the Genesis verse about living soul. You are entitled to your view, but sticking to that/any view obviously means nothing changes.
I did want input, I got input, I was grateful for the input, it is still not clear to me as I guess it is with you. I guess you can have your doubt. As for Genesis and the living soul, where else should one go? Yes, I will go back to where a truth has been established.

Because of Grace and Faith all those who died being found, drawn to Jesus by the Father, have died, being born again from above,

I,( imo) believe the phrases "spiritually dead or dead spiritually" does not apply to the believer, and wrong to use. Col. 3:3

Looking at your two quotes, death also applies to the believer. All believers were dead once. Dead believers (no faith + works) aren't believers at all. Spiritually dead people are possible, spiritually dead believers don't exist.

I was trying to say that the speaking of "spiritually dead and dead spiritually" trouble me when it is not written that way in the Word. I have and do it myself, but change I am allowed.

[micah7:9]

My point with the above is, that Revelation has with 100% certainty a literal interpretation. It's also very clear, to me, it's following the daily Temple worship pattern and the marriage customs. Sure it can be argued that those things (marriage+temple) won't literally happen again and Revelation is just following the pattern laid out millennia ago, (there is stuff that hints to the contrary) but still the pattern has to be understood to (better) understand Revelation.
I see the same things happening all over again. Ancient Jews had very good reasons to assume Jesus was not the Messiah. They had verses/laws to prove it. They were very wrong. They got tangled in the letter of the law. The same is happening again right now (right here). When things are to difficult, just claim they are spiritual, cook up an explanation and get a warm fuzzy feeling. If that doesn't work, just kill it with the letter of the law. Yeah that letter includes the NT. Bury each other under out of context verses. Because many refuse to study, and equally important admit they just don't understand; they invent their own doctrine and find verses supporting their thoughts. That's how so many doctrines were born. That's why ET can be proven with verses. Because verses are used as a blue print for religion. Well they are not. They are building blocks.
The way I see it....
a] The Chief Architect (Father) has a plan to build a house (family)
b] He draws up a rough sketch His house in His mind. Number of rooms, size, that sorta stuff. (salvation plan)
c] Then the Chief Architect draws some blue prints detailing the house. The blue prints are the God ordained feasts, the God ordained Temple rituals, the God ordained marriage customs, etc
d] Finally the Chief Architect writes down a list with building materials, building blocks (verses) to explain others how the house should look like when it's done.

What, imo, is constantly happening is that many Christians believe Father has some sort of plan (a) but they are not aware any blue prints (b, c) exist so they are just start building with the materials (d) they find on the construction site. The result is that they all build different houses (doctrines). None of them look like the house the Chief Architect designed. Some are better than others. Many building materials (verses) aren't used correctly even if they form a (sometimes) nice room. But never according to plan. Lot's of building material seems not to fit in the house. It's discarded (verses spiritualized away)

And me? I'm the weird contractor with construction site with the least activity. I'm still searching for the blue prints and trying to understand the ones I find. I may get fired (die) before the house is ready, but if the Chief Architect grants me enough time I think my house will be pretty close to point a.... 
At least I will have tried to build the house according to the client's specs instead of my own preferences.
:winkgrin:


:soap:

Kinda like me and the living soul in Genesis huh? I mean you always go back the Hebrew wedding. :dsunny:

[Seth]

And yet I show you a more perfect way.

:thumbsup:

The building material which withstands the fire is "faith working in love" imo

[eaglesway]

I think the apocalypse of John, like so many prophecies in the word of God has layers, literal, metaphorical, spiritual pictures of spiritual realities, glimpses of future events and more. Wheels within wheels with eyes all around, speaking on many levels, from the heart and mind of the one who is and was and is to come.

[micah7:9]

I can agree with that, yet I believe that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is a working and revealing now within the individual believer and the Body as many members. Again, it is LIFE, through the Spirit, working in and revealing in the Believer, events happening in US   as The Day approaches. John was IN the Spirit a position we must be in for discernment.
My opinion and how I try to understand.

[eaglesway]

I agree that the Revelation is primarily a working and revealing now within the individual believer and the Body. Also, that as John received it IN the Spirit, so also we must be IN the Spirit to receive what we, individually and corporately, should receive from it.

"Let the one who has ears to hear, hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches".

[Tom]

I think God's "house" is the ecclesia (1 Timothy 3:15), but I still don't think of anybody as "spiritually dead" because spirit is the power of life.

  you can have a spirit in you brother ,all do , but not every spirit working in mankind  is Christ's Spirit      and that to me is the error

And that spirit working   in mankind is anti-Christ

I think the "antichrist" is found in scripture, but "spiritually dead" is not even though it seems to be popular.

[rosered]

I think God's "house" is the ecclesia (1 Timothy 3:15), but I still don't think of anybody as "spiritually dead" because spirit is the power of life.

  you can have a spirit in you brother ,all do , but not every spirit working in mankind  is Christ's Spirit      and that to me is the error

And that spirit working   in mankind is anti-Christ

I think the "antichrist" is found in scripture, but "spiritually dead" is not even though it seems to be popular.

   Hi   Bro Tom ,
I understand what you are saying  ,      The breath of God is in them, and ALL live to God He is not the God of the dead but the Living [in Adam]

  and I understand    your meaning , and the  human  dies  and is no more .  I get that part   literally  in meaning  and is true .

but do not think you understand what I was  saying    perhaps? 

any spirit that has not Christ   is none of His

   the Life I am  speaking of is the peace and joy and Holy Spirit       an abundant  life  now  and  continual one without an end

  To  me those other spirits  just exist  /poor in spirit   and are not really living according to  what Jesus Christ is declaring

but are still under the wrath of God     and do have an end .   

We can see the condition of man being dead in trespass and sin    in Eph   1     and though they have the breath of God  in them they are as dead

  Because to me Life is more than just the breath in you  ,

This  is to me why we are given the Deposit of the Spirit    this belonging   to  Christ   and  we are His possession   2 Corinth 1:22    we   are no longer  poor in spirit    , but have  access    to His   and all things are His   to give and we know He gave   all that we to might have Life in Him , the gift of God   .mind of Christ and seated with Him in heavenly places

   and anti Christ spirits oppose    His  HOLY  SPIRIT   or try to take the place of Him    being   disobedient   and wrathful /  hateful /lawless    that is not living  as to what the scriptures  are testifying too 

[Tom]

I think God's "house" is the ecclesia (1 Timothy 3:15), but I still don't think of anybody as "spiritually dead" because spirit is the power of life.

  you can have a spirit in you brother ,all do , but not every spirit working in mankind  is Christ's Spirit      and that to me is the error

And that spirit working   in mankind is anti-Christ

I think the "antichrist" is found in scripture, but "spiritually dead" is not even though it seems to be popular.

   Hi   Bro Tom ,
I understand what you are saying  ,      The breath of God is in them, and ALL live to God He is not the God of the dead but the Living [in Adam]

  and I understand    your meaning , and the  human  dies  and is no more .  I get that part   literally  in meaning  and is true .

but do not think you understand what I was  saying    perhaps? 

any spirit that has not Christ   is none of His

   the Life I am  speaking of is the peace and joy and Holy Spirit       an abundant  life  now  and  continual one without an end

  To  me those other spirits  just exist  /poor in spirit   and are not really living according to  what Jesus Christ is declaring

but are still under the wrath of God     and do have an end .   

We can see the condition of man being dead in trespass and sin    in Eph   1     and though they have the breath of God  in them they are as dead

  Because to me Life is more than just the breath in you  ,

This  is to me why we are given the Deposit of the Spirit    this belonging   to  Christ   and  we are His possession   2 Corinth 1:22    we   are no longer  poor in spirit    , but have  access    to His   and all things are His   to give and we know He gave   all that we to might have Life in Him , the gift of God   .mind of Christ and seated with Him in heavenly places

   and anti Christ spirits oppose    His  HOLY  SPIRIT   or try to take the place of Him    being   disobedient   and wrathful /  hateful /lawless    that is not living  as to what the scriptures  are testifying too

Rose, I understand what you'e saying, and I don't want you to get upset again. But I think we are living souls given life and kept alive by spirit, the power of life, that comes from God and will return to God if we die before Christ calls us to meet him in the air. I think believers have holy spirit, which unbelievers don't have, but I don't believe unbelievers are "spiritually dead," just figuratively dead until they are literally dead.

[rosered]

Rose, I understand what you'e saying, and I don't want you to get upset again. But I think we are living souls given life and kept alive by spirit, the power of life, that comes from God and will return to God if we die before Christ calls us to meet him in the air. I think believers have holy spirit, which unbelievers don't have, but I don't believe unbelievers are "spiritually dead," just figuratively dead until they are literally dead.

  Hi Tom , not upset at all   Brother
  Figuratively  ,'' describing something symbolic '' is fine   by me    let the dead bury to dead    , you come follow Me ,Jesus says  :thumbsup:

  I don't believe I even used that either  , did I ?   '' spiritually dead'' I mean ...........Eph 2  is what I was  using as an example   not E ph 1     sorry about that  :icon_flower:

  Eph 2 1 Also you -- being dead in the trespasses and the sins,


2 in which once ye did walk according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience,

3 among whom also we all did walk once in the desires of our flesh, doing the wishes of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath -- as also the others,


4 and God, being rich in kindness, because of His great love with which He loved us,


5 even being dead in the trespasses, did make us to live together with the Christ, (by grace ye are having been saved,)


6 and did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,

7 that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,


8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,


9 not of works, that no one may boast;

10 for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk.