Souls Under the Altar

[jabcat]

Rev. 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Who are these souls, why are they talking, and what do they mean?

[jabcat]

I believe some would likely see this as mystical/"only having spiritual/symbolic meaning within the believer", etc...Others, do  you see these as literal martyrs, if so, what point in history..also, if truly/literally/completely "the dead know nothing", what's going on with these souls?  They certainly seem to be aware..thoughts?

[Lazarus Short]

That is not so different from the story in Genesis where God informs Cain that his brother's blood calls out from the ground.

[RaiderGonzo]

Is everything in the whole book of Revelation a "vision" and symbolic (filled with symbolism), or is there anything in it that can be taken literally?

[Molly]

So, from a literalist like myself--

These are the end times martyred saints calling for Jesus to judge the earth.


See, the Lord is going to lay waste the earth
    and devastate it;
he will ruin its face
    and scatter its inhabitants—

2
it will be the same
    for priest as for people,
    for the master as for his servant,
    for the mistress as for her servant,
    for seller as for buyer,
    for borrower as for lender,
    for debtor as for creditor.

3
The earth will be completely laid waste
    and totally plundered.
The Lord has spoken this word.

--Isa 24


We see this is happening at the time of the fifth seal.   Does everyone have their opinion of what the seals are?  My opinion is that the seals close a document which is the will giving the quitclaim deed of the earth [among other things] to Christ and his co-inheritors, the saints.   When the 7th seal is open,  the time has come for everything to belong to Christ and his saints.


Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

--Mat 5:5


The answer given to the saints is "a little while."   The time is close.


We see they are crying with 'a loud voice.'   It is a voice meant to be heard by those on earth, and by that 'number of their fellow servants and their brethren'  who are still being perfected.

When this happens, it is almost the time of what Paul called, 'the fulfillment of the Gentiles.'

[WhiteWings]

Rev. 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Who are these souls, why are they talking, and what do they mean?

That can't be explained without understanding large parts of Revelation.(and the order of chapters which are chronological but only when viewed trough a shape of a Menorah)

Under doesn't mean underneath but at the base of the altar which was huge. Priests had to climb some stairs to reach the top of the altar.
The people at the base of the altar just brought a sacrifice the priest puts on the Altar of Burned offering.

The people are given a white robe. Male wedding guests, including the groom, worn a wedding garment called a kittel. It looks a little similar to a bath-robe. The kittel is also worn during Passover and Yom Kippur sacrifices by the priests. Kittel is rooted in the word katal, to slay. The white garments are also linked to war.


Those people are the same as those in the 7th seal. (Silence)
There was music, song and dance in the Temple during the daylight hours. Twice a day there was a silence of 30 minutes. Everybody fell on the face and prayed in silence. Everybody was mainly/also the people would brought a sacrifice. The saints at the base of the altar.

In the previous seal they were told to wait. That's a chronological hint. It links the events to a festival date.
Seven Trumpets were only used during the 7 day long Feast of Tabernacles.

During the Temple service trumpets were sounded at 7 times a day.
4 during the morning service. Trumpet 1-4
The other 3 are the 3 Woes of revelation.

The souls at the base of the altar had to wait. This is what they had to wait for. Dressed in white and ready for battle.

[WhiteWings]

Is everything in the whole book of Revelation a "vision" and symbolic (filled with symbolism), or is there anything in it that can be taken literally?

Most of Revelation is just the daily Temple service retold in a rather special way.

Can things be taken literal? That depends on what you call literal.
I'll give a few example and let you decide.

Ships are people spreading God's Word. One third gets killed.
Rivers are fresh living water. The true religion/teachings. They are made bitter with satanic lies. --> Paganism

While it's possible literal ships get destroyed and rivers made bitter during war I think it's not the primary meaning.
So there will be no literal ships destroyed but faith will be literally destroyed. Some things are defined in the OT. Others are just saying the same thing over and over again.

The thing is RG, Revelation can't be understood without knowing the hidden meaning of words. Take for example angels restraining the wind. Wind is just a other name for the HS. Restrained wind means restrained blessings.  But there is just one HS. But the angles are holding 4.... HS also represents God's power/authority. A Jewish prayer shawl had tassels on its 4 corners signifying God's power --> HS. The angels were holding the prayer shawl. During marriage ceremony  a prayer shawl was stretched out over the couple. The couple received blessings not terror. So when mixing all hidden meanings together 4 angels restraining the wind means:
a] Extra bad times for the wicked. No more blessings to temper evil.
b] Saints are covered/protected.
c] Wedding stuff.

And that's just the beginning. There are a great many similar things in Revelation. Revelationn = Temple service + marriage.

Literal? You decide.  :friendstu:

[micah7:9]

That is not so different from the story in Genesis where God informs Cain that his brother's blood calls out from the ground.

:thumbsup:

[ed]

Rev. 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Who are these souls, why are they talking, and what do they mean?

Avenge us!

Rest a little while longer.

There is more to be killed.

I see a turmoil of murder, a desire for making it right(revenge, justice?), and then, rest a little while longer.

These souls don't seem to be at rest.................they are a bit impatient (how long?), and want justice.

"Being slain for the word of God, and for the the testimony they held". Maybe in a way that would be everyone of us who have been crucified with Christ?

[Tom]

I agree with Molly and Laz. I think they are the souls of the martyrs crying to be avenged (Matthew 24:9; Revelation 2:10, 12:10,11, 20:4).

[Molly]

That is not so different from the story in Genesis where God informs Cain that his brother's blood calls out from the ground.

:thumbsup:

"Wedding stuff"--this post meant to follow WW's post.


The last sealing takes place in Revelation 7.


After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree.  2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,  3 saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."  4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

--Rev 7


And, at this time we see the multitudes in heaven.  They have been raptured before the 3.5 years of the Great Tribulation.  For we are not subject to wrath.

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,  10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"  11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,  12 saying:


"Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.
--Revelation 7



They will be in heaven for the reading of the will at  the opening of the 7th seal.   Beneficiaries are always present for the reading of the will.


They are the armies [clouds of witnesses] who return with the Lord of Hosts to claim [reclaim] their inheritance.


11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.  12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.  13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.  14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.  15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

--Revelation 10



A Living Hope

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time....

--1 Peter 1






Worthy is the Lamb

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz5F4ntVKvU

[rosered]

 
   For me there is not easy answer   to explain  this   ,
  and some good stuff from the     group !!   
    James      you ask an excellent question  , we all wonder at     ! years of looking and  seeking and asking God to help us understand  HIS Mystery and Will   


   We know the   book  of  Revelations is a special book      that testifies       of the  3  times   the past , present and future    ,  for me its always been like the Key  of David  and  mercy     that unlocks the    sealed up books     all of them

   This testimony is Jesus  Christ    GOD Speaking   thought the Son of Man  , Jesus Christ  by the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY       the past  being filled   as now and to come 
   always this is     in effect          who are those souls/ living creatures    that LIVE   and yet died  in the Lord ?  Rev 14   verse  13   for me but its not as simple as  who   as   it is to why




Rev14    9 Then a third angel followed the first two angels, saying in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his ·idol [image] and ·gets [receives; takes] the beast's ·mark [brand; stamp] on the forehead or on the hand,


10 that one also will drink the wine of God's anger [C perhaps a play on words with v. 8; Babylon's "passion" will bring on God's "wrath"], which is prepared ·with all its strength [undiluted; L unmixed; C wine was often mixed with water] in the cup of his anger [C God's judgment is often portrayed in the OT as a "cup" of wine poured out; Jer. 25:15–29]. And that person will be ·put in pain [tortured; tormented] with ·burning sulfur [L fire and sulfur] before the holy angels and the Lamb.

11 And the smoke from their ·burning pain [torture; torment] will rise forever and ever. There will be no rest, day or night, for those who worship the beast and his ·idol [image] or who get the ·mark [brand; stamp] of his name."

12 This means ·God's holy people [T the saints] must ·be patient [persevere; endure]. They must ·obey [keep] God's commands and ·keep their faith in [remain faithful to] Jesus.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Write this: ·Blessed [or Happy] are the dead who die from now on in the Lord."

The Spirit says, "Yes, they will rest from their hard work, ·and the reward of all they have done stays with them [L for their deeds will follow them]."

For me ,    there is  great irony in all this          The  very things I have searched and looked into and    shared with others doing the same  thing !!

  Not realizing     this but was still in Babylon ,  this  confusion         and it still has its power on me to some degree       that not being able to rest      not knowing the end from the beginning

  Here is what I have discovered    very recently    and still don't know   to simplify  , because that is what gives  some of us rest    making it "settled"  within us    and Knowing the truth that does set us free     


God is amazing     in how He  says things !!      that is no joke !    just being as serious as I can be here

  knowing Gods will  is our   rest    and hope ALIVE   and we   are not in rest     when we do not know it !...  this is the simple  answer

   There are certain chapters that explain     each other     from the old and new   that say the same things or connect to  each other perfectly   

  and the understanding in them      that goes with them are     the rest in     Jesus Christ

   comparing  spiritual   WORDS  with spiritual   UNDERSTANDING  1Corinthians 2  is so truthful  of  God's Wisdom



6 However, we speak wisdom to those who are mature. But this wisdom is not from this ·world [age] or from the rulers of this ·world [age], who ·are losing their power [will soon disappear; are passing away]. 7 We speak God's ·secret wisdom [or wisdom in a mystery; 2:1], which he has kept hidden. Before the ·world began [ages], God ·planned [decreed; destined] this wisdom for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this ·world [age] understood it. If they had, they would not have crucified the ·Lord of glory [glorious Lord]. 9 But as it is written in the Scriptures:

"No ·one [L eye] has ever seen this,
    and no ·one [L ear] has ever heard about it.
No ·one [L human heart] has ever imagined
    what God has prepared for those who love him [Is. 64:4]."
10 But God has ·shown [revealed to] us these things through the Spirit.

[L For] The Spirit ·searches out [examines; scrutinizes] all things, even the ·deep secrets [deep things; depths] of God.

11 Who knows the thoughts that another person has? Only a person's spirit that lives within him knows his thoughts. It is the same with God. No one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we did not receive the spirit of the world, but we received the Spirit that is from God so that we can know all that God has [freely] given us. 13 And we speak about these things, not with words taught us by human wisdom but with words taught us by the Spirit. And so we explain spiritual truths ·to spiritual people [or to those who have the Spirit; or with the Spirit's words].

14 A ·person who does not have the Spirit [or natural person] does not accept the ·truths [L things] that come from the Spirit of God. That person thinks they are foolish and cannot understand them, because they can only be ·judged to be true [discerned; assessed] by the Spirit. 15 The ·spiritual person [or person with the Spirit] is able to ·judge [discern; assess] all things, but no one can ·judge [discern; assess] him. ·The Scripture says [L For]:

16 "Who has known the mind of the Lord?
    Who has been able to ·teach [advise; counsel] him [Is. 40:13]?"
But we have the mind of Christ [C the Holy Spirit reveals God and his ways to us; Rom. 11:34].
 
For me ,  the expanded Bible has been an amazing tool for me    these days   , and there was a time when I would have been afraid of it    in all honesty 

its not  complete , but has a  lot of    word terms laid out that "ring  true"       

  Now Back to the original question      who are those  living creatures who died in the Lord and  are under the altar /   and want vengeance   by asking the Father
to do His   strange works      Isaiah 28 ; 31       in sending the SON OF MAN AS THE SON OF GOD     A Cornerstone in Zion


...20The bed is too short on which to stretch out, And the blanket is too small to wrap oneself in. 21For the LORD will rise up as at Mount Perazim, He will be stirred up as in the valley of Gibeon, To do His task, His unusual task, And to work His work, His extraordinary work.

22  And now do not carry on as scoffers, Or your fetters will be made stronger; For I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts Of decisive destruction on all the earth.
I will destroy those whom destroy the   earth       and this was going to be by sending Jesus Christ  , who   never spoke  any words except His Fathers   only ,  His voice   IS  very important  clue     
  another very important clue is     Jesus come to destroy Babylon    and this was to begin    in the HOUSE OF GOD  first    and  anyone called out of the world

  was going to suffer      the same fate  of being held in Babylon or Being set free from Her [religon]    all religion in general        period
   We find this  very key chapter in Ezekiel      14 [GODS TEMPLE    CLEANSED]      that fits perfectly with Revelation 14   
   AND Zechariah 6  with Rev  6      the four winds Spirits horses          and the purpose of each horse / spirit       being the  4 sore judgments  sent on the earth     

   Jesus   spoke   or God spoke directly   to those in Charge  of Babylon  and the idolatry         in the 4   gospels   , you can consider those as the  4 winds of Change  in you want  they are    truthful in the message   of tearing  down the strongholds of Babylon     

  What do they stand for is the question     four sore judgments   in Ezekiel 14     are
  Famine for the  WORD OF   GOD       JESUS IS THE WORD OF GOD   HIS VOICE IS GODS VOICE   ONE AND THE SAME   , This is why   the testimony of Jesus Christ IS     THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY     


AND many   will    say ,,,  but Jerusalem      was destroyed in 70 ad     and this is true   a foretelling becoming a reality      , but the Spirit message  continues   to  cleanse the temple of the Living God        from Babylon in  you    and many to this day      , the rest    of  vanity /futility and nothingness   comes in Jesus Christ       

HE MUST BE SET UP WITHIN YOU     , your earthly temple        just as we see this  in the Word as truth  , I have always thought it was going to be  individually or in clusters  like grapes     squeezed  out   , our  blood   against sin in Hebrews   6  striving against error /sin
  this grace is it , nothing is left for us to be saved by    for or against     Jesus blood is it    the Lambs blood given as the gift of Life for all   .   

  Jerusalem Will Not Be Spared
12 The ·Lord spoke his word [L word of the Lord came] to me, saying: 13 "·Human [T Son of man; 2:1], if ·the people of a country [L a country/land] sin against me by not being ·loyal [faithful], I will ·use my power [L stretch out my hand] against them. I will cut off their supply of ·food [bread] and send ·a time of hunger [famine], destroying both people and animals. 14 Even if three great men like Noah, Daniel [C either the prophet Daniel (who was still a young man at this time) or an ancient Canaanite hero known for his wisdom and justice], and Job were in that country, their ·goodness [righteousness] could save only themselves, says the Lord God.

15 "Or I might send wild animals into that land, leaving the land ·empty [desolate] and ·without children [bereaved]. Then no one would pass through it because of the ·animals [beasts]. 16 As surely as I live, says the Lord God, even if ·Noah, Daniel, and Job [L these three men; v. 14] were in the land, they could not save their own sons or daughters. They could save only themselves, but that country would become ·empty [desolate].

17 "Or I might bring a ·war [L sword] against that ·country [land]. I might say, 'Let a ·war be fought in [L sword pass through] that land,' in this way ·destroying [cutting off] its people and its animals. 18 As surely as I live, says the Lord God, even if those three men were in the land, they could not save their sons or daughters. They could save only themselves.

19 "Or I might cause a ·disease [plague; pestilence] to spread in that country. I might pour out my ·anger [L rage/wrath with blood] against it, destroying and killing people and animals. 20 As surely as I live, says the Lord God, even if Noah, Daniel [v. 14], and Job were in the land, they could not save their son or daughter. They could save only themselves ·because they did what was right [by their righteousness].

21 "This is what the Lord God says: ·My plans for Jerusalem are much worse [L How much more for Jerusalem]! I will send my four terrible punishments against it—·war [L sword], ·hunger [famine], wild animals, and ·disease [pestilence; plague]—to destroy its people and animals. 22 But [L look; T behold] some ·people will escape [survivors will be left]; some sons and daughters will be led out. They will come out to you, and you will see ·what happens to people who live as they did [L their ways and deeds]. Then you will be ·comforted [consoled] after the disasters I have brought against Jerusalem, after all the things I have brought against it. 23 ·You will be comforted [They will console you] when you see ·what happens to them for living as they did [L their ways and deeds], because you will know ·there was a good reason for [it was not without cause that I did] what I did to Jerusalem, says the Lord God."


Remember   Jesus  VOICE  , GODS VOICE  saying        you did not know the time of your visitation   , Spirit of God moving on you     and I would have gathered you as a  baby    chick     under my wings    Him Being the protector     of those  4 winds            or Spirits of God     but were  not willing 
so they die   or are plagued  or the beasts   come and    tear you apart       or the famine of the Word is held      from you      and die    in them
  Babylon is falling in you   just as Babylon is   in the world    and your earth       
its two edged     , you    can  be saved from them at any time  or you will  go though them    all       being held  captive    till you are desolate and empty   void
 

   

   

Matt 24   holds   true today    as yesterday and   to come      , many do not even know it   when its happening to them

  they just know they are under some attack and blame it on Satan  , but they are   opposing  Gods will          and die in this error     

loose heart , give up  or walk away   just as many done in the time Jesus walked the earth       and showed us this very thing in the  4 gospels   
  this is   always the warning in the Word stay  till the end  ,  dont give up dont loose  heart , keep your hope alive , seek the Lord with all your heart , dont lean on your own understanding    etc ....        there is    JESUS waiting on you       

[rosered]

 

  This is why I LOVE TENTMAKERS!! 
  everyone IS    testifying of the truth !!!   
bits and pieces of the   TRUTH setting us free
   John 8 The Truth will Set You Free
31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him,

"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;



32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." 33They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free '?


free from    Babylon   !!     we are all captive to that    hold   ,,,         the earth was  given Babylon
  remember how John marveled  at her ???

  in Revelation     17 

   When I saw the woman, I was ·very amazed [greatly astonished; L amazed with great amazement]. 7 Then the angel said to me, "Why are you amazed [astonished]? I will tell you the ·secret [mystery] of this woman and the beast ·she rides [that carries her]—the one with seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast you saw ·was once alive but is not alive now [L was, and is not; 13:3, 12, 14].


But soon it will come up out of the ·bottomless pit [Abyss; 9:1] and go away to ·be destroyed [its destruction]. There are people who live on earth whose names have not been written in the ·book [scroll] of life [3:5] since the ·beginning [foundation; creation] of the world. They will be amazed when they see the beast, because he was ·once alive, is not alive now, but will come again [L was, is not, but is to come; C imitating the divine title of the Lamb (1:18; 2:8) and God (1:4, 8; 4:8)].


  Jesus come to defeat        the   strongholds and done just that[on the CROSS ]         , but look how the  deadly wound was  healed    ?And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. Revelation 13:1,2,14

      the scriptures must be fulfilled exactly as Prophesied   

9 "You need a wise mind to understand this. The seven heads on the beast are seven ·mountains [or hills; C Rome was built on seven hills] where the woman sits.

10 ·And they are seven kings. Five of the kings have ·already been destroyed [L fallen], one of the kings ·lives now [L is], and another has not yet come. When he comes, he must stay a short time.

11 The beast that ·was once alive [L was], but ·is not alive now [L is not], is also an eighth king. He belongs to the first seven kings, and he ·will go away to be destroyed [is heading to destruction].

  ALL   THE BLOOD OF THE SAINTS were   set    to be avenged     by Babylon  falling       she his drinking the  double portion of the cup of Gods wrath   this how the  white robes are given and      the saints are avenged     by resting     till all is      poured out on  HER

When the wrath of God is complete in her

  come out of her my people unless you want those  plagues  destined to come        the 4 sore judgments   the  4   spirits /horses of judgment   

Red  White   Black and   pale horse of death
  red   is the  sickness
  white is the warring   

  Black is allowing the measures  [wheat and barley harvests  heavenly gain    ]     the oil and wine are  spared for  sake of righteousness  in the earth       Gods glory

   being the Holy Sprint   oil in the lamps and Wine is the  new blood of the new covenant   
  pale horse is death to the    ones who never come out of her

   This is  only a    sharing of what we can all    gather now by His Spirit      teaching us His righteousness  in the earth as it is in heaven    and to comfort those whom    know   Gods will is perfect        and complete and entire not lacking in any thing

  AMAZING !!    GODS WILL IS AMAZING  , HIS MERCY IS ALWAYS        and   we trust his judgments as righteous    !   


   God has  so much more  in His will and desire        for all of mankind       

 

[rosered]

Is everything in the whole book of Revelation a "vision" and symbolic (filled with symbolism), or is there anything in it that can be taken literally?

Most of Revelation is just the daily Temple service retold in a rather special way.

Can things be taken literal? That depends on what you call literal.
I'll give a few example and let you decide.

Ships are people spreading God's Word. One third gets killed.
Rivers are fresh living water. The true religion/teachings. They are made bitter with satanic lies. --> Paganism

While it's possible literal ships get destroyed and rivers made bitter during war I think it's not the primary meaning.
So there will be no literal ships destroyed but faith will be literally destroyed. Some things are defined in the OT. Others are just saying the same thing over and over again.

The thing is RG, Revelation can't be understood without knowing the hidden meaning of words. Take for example angels restraining the wind. Wind is just a other name for the HS. Restrained wind means restrained blessings.  But there is just one HS. But the angles are holding 4.... HS also represents God's power/authority. A Jewish prayer shawl had tassels on its 4 corners signifying God's power --> HS. The angels were holding the prayer shawl. During marriage ceremony  a prayer shawl was stretched out over the couple. The couple received blessings not terror. So when mixing all hidden meanings together 4 angels restraining the wind means:
a] Extra bad times for the wicked. No more blessings to temper evil.
b] Saints are covered/protected.
c] Wedding stuff.

And that's just the beginning. There are a great many similar things in Revelation. Revelationn = Temple service + marriage.

Literal? You decide.  :friendstu:

   :iagree:

   awesome Bro T

     the marriage supper of the Lamb  :flowerred:

  the covenant    agreement   between God and mankind   

   and I ironically the great supper of God     happens     to simultaneously   i do believe this is Babylon  falling  as promised

  no flesh left to     speak of    !!!


Defeat of the Beast and False Prophet
17Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great."...

1 Samuel 17:44
"Come here," he said, "and I'll give your flesh to the birds and the wild animals!"

Jeremiah 12:9
Has not my inheritance become to me like a speckled bird of prey that other birds of prey surround and attack? Go and gather all the wild beasts; bring them to devour.

Ezekiel 39:17
"Son of man, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Call out to every kind of bird and all the wild animals: 'Assemble and come together from all around to the sacrifice I am preparing for you, the great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel. There you will eat flesh and drink blood.

Revelation 8:13
As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: "Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!"

Revelation 19:21
The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
   

[rosered]

Rev. 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Who are these souls, why are they talking, and what do they mean?

That can't be explained without understanding large parts of Revelation.(and the order of chapters which are chronological but only when viewed trough a shape of a Menorah)

Under doesn't mean underneath but at the base of the altar which was huge. Priests had to climb some stairs to reach the top of the altar.
The people at the base of the altar just brought a sacrifice the priest puts on the Altar of Burned offering.

The people are given a white robe. Male wedding guests, including the groom, worn a wedding garment called a kittel. It looks a little similar to a bath-robe. The kittel is also worn during Passover and Yom Kippur sacrifices by the priests. Kittel is rooted in the word katal, to slay. The white garments are also linked to war.


Those people are the same as those in the 7th seal. (Silence)
There was music, song and dance in the Temple during the daylight hours. Twice a day there was a silence of 30 minutes. Everybody fell on the face and prayed in silence. Everybody was mainly/also the people would brought a sacrifice. The saints at the base of the altar.

In the previous seal they were told to wait. That's a chronological hint. It links the events to a festival date.
Seven Trumpets were only used during the 7 day long Feast of Tabernacles.

During the Temple service trumpets were sounded at 7 times a day.
4 during the morning service. Trumpet 1-4
The other 3 are the 3 Woes of revelation.

The souls at the base of the altar had to wait. This is what they had to wait for. Dressed in white and ready for battle.

  I love this the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY      SPEAKS !!

  THE old  testament    and earthly witness      the same  as the Spiritual witnesss    and making  both true    to the WORD OF GOD AS   a finished Work 

  fulfilling   the righteousness in the earth as it is in heaven   

   short work in righteousness  being we are all here in the flesh for a short time       , very short      as is   the Satan  /adversity     used to destroy the flesh



Romans 9  ;28   22 ·It is the same way with God. He [L What if he...?] wanted to show his ·anger [wrath] and to let people see his power. But he ·patiently stayed with [endured with great patience] those ·people he was angry with [L vessels/objects of wrath]—people who were ·made ready [prepared] to be destroyed. 23 He waited with patience so that he could make known ·his rich glory [the riches of his glory] to the ·people who receive his [L vessels/objects of] mercy. He has prepared these people ·to have his glory [to experience his glory; L for glory], 24 and we are those people whom God called. He called us not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles. 25 As ·the Scripture [or God] says in Hosea:

"I will ·say, 'You are my people' [call them 'my people']
    to those who were not my people.
And I will ·show my love [call her 'beloved']
    to ·those people [her] I did not love [Hos. 2:1, 23; C in Hosea, a reference to apostate Israel; here applied to the Gentiles]."
26 "And in the same place where they were called,
    'You are not my people,'
there they will be called
    'children of the living God [Hos. 1:10].'"
27 And Isaiah cries out about Israel:

"[L Though] The ·people [L children; sons] of Israel are numbered
    like the grains of sand ·by [or of] the sea.
But only ·a few of them [the remnant] will be saved,
28     because the Lord will quickly and completely ·punish the people [carry out/execute his sentence; settle his account] on the earth [Is. 10:22–23]."
29 It is as Isaiah said:

"If the Lord ·All-Powerful [of Hosts; of Heaven's Armies]
    had not ·allowed a few of our descendants to live [left us offspring/seed],
We would have become like Sodom
    and would resemble Gomorrah [Is. 1:9; C OT cities destroyed by God because of their wickedness; Gen. 19]."
30 ·So what does all this mean [L What, then, shall we say]? Those who are Gentiles ·were not trying to make themselves right with God [L did not pursue righteousness], but they ·were made right with God [obtained righteousness] ·because of their faith [L —that is, a righteousness that is by faith]. 31 The people of Israel tried to ·follow [pursue] a law ·to make themselves right with God [L of righteousness]. But they did not ·succeed [reach/attain it], 32 [L Why?] because they tried to make themselves right by ·the things they did [works] instead of ·trusting in God to make them right [L by faith]. They stumbled over the stone that causes people to stumble. 33 As it is written in the Scripture:

"[L Look; T Behold] I will put in ·Jerusalem [L Zion; C a poetic term for Jerusalem and symbolizing the nation Israel] a stone that causes people to stumble,
    a rock that makes them fall [Is. 8:14].
Anyone who ·trusts [believes; has faith] in him will never be ·disappointed [put to shame; disgraced; Is. 28:16]."


Isaiah 10:22
For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Isaiah 10:23
For the Lord GOD of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land.

Romans 1:1
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

Romans 9:27
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Romans 9:26
And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Romans 9:25
As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Romans 9:29
And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

Romans 9:30
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Romans 9:31
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

   being  faithful as a wife to her husband and husband to the wife are what makes  a true marriage work  righteousness

and WHAT GOD has   Joined together let no man  separate        put asunder     !!!

[WhiteWings]

and I ironically the great supper of God     happens     to simultaneously   i do believe this is Babylon  falling  as promised 

Maybe,  but I doubt it because the a man could never be drafted for war in the 1st year of his marriage.

Destroying Babylon sounds like war.

[rosered]

and I ironically the great supper of God     happens     to simultaneously   i do believe this is Babylon  falling  as promised 

Maybe,  but I doubt it because the a man could never be drafted for war in the 1st year of his marriage.

Destroying Babylon sounds like war.

Maybe is not man  ,    flesh and blood no not inherit    anything to do with the Holy union  covenant     Jesus come   to bring war and divisions   Matt 10 ;34 Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. ... I didn't come to bring peace but conflict  ..
 

  I know this may upset   many   folks about the  mystical Satan       and How its done away with      thrown in the fire   last

   why was   this spirit   if you will ,     be held / bound   to an abyss     for 1000  years ?

  and why is the supper   the great DAY  OF THE LORD    in Rev  the same as Ezekiel 39 ?   
and why is the 1000  years as a Day to God ?   

   I believe its because the only thing  served will be the Lambs blood and body  [Spiritual  sacrifice ]   , and none of these   other sacrifices will    be offered because its Gods     sacrifice only that will    serve His  purpose      and satan    this adversarial      purpose is for the destruction of all flesh       


Ezek 39     this comes as the    great and terrible Day of the Lord   [Christ reign]     
The Slaughter of Gog's Armies
...16"And even the name of the city will be Hamonah. So they will cleanse the land."' 17"As for you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD, 'Speak to every kind of bird and to every beast of the field, "Assemble and come, gather from every side to My sacrifice which I am going to sacrifice for you, as a great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel, that you may eat flesh and drink blood. 18"You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, as though they were rams, lambs, goats and bulls, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

  For me this is Babylon  falling      , that there will be no more     flesh and blood      but the only Flesh and blood will be the Lambs blood   and eat His flesh   which I totally believe is spiritual in meaning  just as the literal     and natural   was worked in the earth         



Reve 20 1 Satan Bound the Thousand Years
1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;...

Luke 8:31
And they begged Jesus repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

Revelation 1:18
I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Revelation 9:1
The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss.

Revelation 10:1
Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars.

Revelation 20:3
He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.


  It not so easy to   understand it  and its     a big clue to the great supper of God       Rev 19    you will eat and be eaten     

   this is the warring in our members I believe Paul  was conveying    to us in Romans   7    one survivor  the Christ in you ...      ROMANS    IS THE BEAST     Paul is warring with  in addressing these scriptures to us

  How to overcome or be overcome     both apply  to us    , when we are obedient to the Lord    or not     

     the war  will continue         
  just some thoughts without  making this a mile long     hopefully   

[dajomaco]

If it is literal does it mean that those killed for their testimony where killed a certain way.
Those yet to be killed will be killed the same way.

Is the verse talking about the way they will be killed
or the reason they will be killed?

[rosered]

If it is literal does it mean that those killed for their testimony where killed a certain way.
Those yet to be killed will be killed the same way.

Is the verse talking about the way they will be killed
or the reason they will be killed?

  saints were overcome  Big clue    is ALL      who dwell on the earth Bro Dale

  those whom were  killed in Hebrews 11  we know it was literal     proof   and yet  are those since   and will are those whom  are in Christ ..   


Rev 13 ...6And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.

7It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.


8All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain....



and we know that   as long as we are carnal  and still flesh and blood human     as well as being spiritual creatures in Christ   

     the kill and be killed
  by the SWORD /WORD OF GOD   HEBREWS 4
12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

  Word of God is for us all   whom are still     being divided between the two mountains     

Law of Moses / JUDGMENT  without mercy  and the Mountain of God  / MERCY   Jesus Kingdom
 
  For me the mixing of Law and grace  is being separated         

Babylon  still holding the prisoners   and  spilling the blood of the saints

I know this is confusing  and maybe not be discussed     at this time I am not certain


  But I know the  7 mountains      where the woman sits is the same  7 churches    with their warnings in       Rev 2 and 3    they are I just know   many will doubt it

  but if you can think  clearly about this       one thing   , its our faith that   remains in Hope and Love   those  3 things      that Jesus promises the victory in

When Paul talked bout the race    and finishing it , it was over those  7 mountains       ,   you see  the Mother of Religion in the earth is      what  deceives
  the very elect if possible       
Matthew 24
  The Abomination of Desolation  is  coming to those whom  are   not prepared before hand   


...23"Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him.

24"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

25"Behold, I have told you in advance.

I sure hope this helps      and not hinders     , I do wish others would also speak up as well

[Tom]

If it is literal does it mean that those killed for their testimony where killed a certain way.
Those yet to be killed will be killed the same way.

Is the verse talking about the way they will be killed
or the reason they will be killed?

I think literal just means it's not figurative.

[Molly]

September 21, 2011, 9:00am

The Kittel as a Garment of Majestic Leadership

By Jacqueline Nicholls

This kittel explores leadership. Specifically, the responsiblity of leading, and the leaders' complex relationships to followers and to themselves. On Rosh Hashana our prayer leaders stand before God and together we crown God as King.

There are three different leadership archetypes in the Tanach: kings, prophets and priests. It is interesting to note that clothing plays an important symbolic role in each of their narratives, and thus clothing seems to be inherently connected with the concept of leadership.

There are many examples of the physical expression of the mantle of leadership in Tanach. The priestly garments are detailed in the books of Shemot and Vayikra.

The priest would have to wear specific clothing depending on his roles within the temple ritual structure. In the book of Kings the prophet Eliyahu is described as wearing a particular belted garment passed onto his student Elisha. Earlier in Kings, a prophet uses a cloak to demonstrate that the nation of Israel will be divided, and gives the pieces to Yarovam ben Navat as part of appointing him king of the northern kingdom. These stories use the garment as a symbolic transferring of power.

Clothing is also connected to status and intimacy. The prophet Yermiyahu is instructed to portray God's relationship with the people with a loincloth, an item of clothing worn next to the skin. David demonstrates that he could have harmed Shaul but chose not to by cutting a part of his cloak. But by damaging part of the king's clothing he is also threatening and disrespecting Shaul's leadership.

These connections between clothing and leadership come together in the character of Esther. Esther prepares herself to confront Ahashverus to arrange a meeting, which is potentially fatal for her, but she becomes a leader and acts on behalf of the people. The text describes her dressing herself in royalty , "tilfash Esther malchut"- Esther 5:1. The text does not describe her as wearing "bigdei malchut," which would have been the phrase for royal clothing. The Talmud, in Megillah 14b, interprets this unusual phrase as her as being clothed with prophecy. This moment of dressing is when she becomes a prophet.

The role of the king, prophet or priest all play two roles. They represent the people to God and God to the people. Going from one role to the other, they seem to belong to neither side but are caught in the middle. Individual personalities influence what type of a leader they will be, but they are not in this position as themselves, but rather as a representative of something else. There is tension between suppressing and enhancing their individuality as they rise to the occasion.


Read more: http://blogs.forward.com/sisterhood-blog/143063/the-kittel-as-a-garment-of-majestic-leadership/#ixzz3JNMAnUBN


A picture of the kittel is at link.

[Molly]

Kittel: Jewish Ceremonial Robe

What is a Kittel?



In Judaism, a kittel is a white linen robe worn by Jewish men on special occasions to signify purity, holiness and new beginnings. Traditionally, a Jewish man first wears a kittel on his wedding day, thereafter on certain Jewish holidays like Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur and Passover, and ultimately as a burial shroud. Kittels are worn by Orthodox men and sometimes by Conservative or Reform Jews if they choose.

In Jewish tradition, the color white represents purity and humility. In modern times, one of the readings on Rosh Hashanah is the saying of Isaiah: "Though your sin be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow" (Isaiah 1:18). In the time of the Temple, when the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur, he wore simple linen garments instead of his usual golden vestments.

The custom of wearing white on the High Holy Days has endured, and observant Jewish men wear a kittel to synagogue on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. Women often dress in white on these days as well, and the ark curtain, Torah mantles, and various other synagogue items are also replaced with white versions.

Passover

On Passover, it is traditional for the man leading the Seder (home Passover meal) to wear a kittel. In this context, the kittel represents release from bondage to a life of freedom.

The groom's kittel is seen as paralleling the bride's purity as expressed in her white dress and signifying the new beginning of married life. As an added bonus, there are 32 fringes on the kittel and 32 spells out "heart" when written in Hebrew letters. In some communities it is customary for the bride to give her groom a kittel as a pre-wedding present. Grooms who choose to don a kittel wear it over their tuxedo or suit during the ceremony and usually remove it before breaking the glass or after the ceremony.


http://www.religionfacts.com/judaism/things/kittel.htm

[Molly]

The Kittel worn on the day of atonement by the high priest--


The Day of Atonement

16 Now the Lord spoke to Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron, when they offered profane fire before the Lord, and died;  2 and the Lord said to Moses: "Tell Aaron your brother not to come at just any time into the Holy Place inside the veil, before the mercy seat which is on the ark, lest he die; for I will appear in the cloud above the mercy seat.

3 "Thus Aaron shall come into the Holy Place: with the blood of a young bull as a sin offering, and of a ram as a burnt offering. 4 He shall put the holy linen tunic and the linen trousers on his body; he shall be girded with a linen sash, and with the linen turban he shall be attired. These are holy garments. Therefore he shall wash his body in water, and put them on.  5 And he shall take from the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats as a sin offering, and one ram as a burnt offering.

--Lev 16





"This shall be a statute forever for you: In the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether a native of your own country or a stranger who dwells among you.  30 For on that day the priest shall make atonement for you, to cleanse you, that you may be clean from all your sins before the Lord.  31 It is a sabbath of solemn rest for you, and you shall afflict your souls. It is a statute forever.  32 And the priest, who is anointed and consecrated to minister as priest in his father's place, shall make atonement, and put on the linen clothes, the holy garments;  33 then he shall make atonement for the Holy Sanctuary,[a] and he shall make atonement for the tabernacle of meeting and for the altar, and he shall make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly.  34 This shall be an everlasting statute for you, to make atonement for the children of Israel, for all their sins, once a year." And he did as the Lord commanded Moses.

--Lev 16



We as priests entering the Most Holy Place:


19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus,  20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh,  21 and having a High Priest over the house of God,  22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.  23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.  24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works,  25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

--Heb 10

[eaglesway]

Rev. 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Who are these souls, why are they talking, and what do they mean?

until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

I believe this means they shared martyrdom, not that they were killed by the same method of murder.

[WhiteWings]

and I ironically the great supper of God     happens     to simultaneously   i do believe this is Babylon  falling  as promised 

Maybe,  but I doubt it because the a man could never be drafted for war in the 1st year of his marriage.

Destroying Babylon sounds like war.

Maybe is not man  ,    flesh and blood no not inherit    anything to do with the Holy union  covenant     Jesus come   to bring war and divisions   Matt 10 ;34 Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. ... I didn't come to bring peace but conflict  ..

Well the timing is in the God ordained feasts.
Feasts were announced with a certain combination of shofars, silver trumpets and blast patterns played on them. Those things have several nicknames like shout and blast. When reading Revelation the trumpets and shofars give timing. Note that trumpets and shofars are not the same. That's very important to know because they have distinctive meaning in God's plan/timing/salvation.

The feasts have many nicknames that existed long before Jesus was born. Jesus obviously isn't going to marry a dead bride. The trumpet/shofars of Revelation start with Jewish New year the last trump*.
The last trump is also known as the awakening blast. Resurrection of the bride. Shortly after the next feast is nicknamed the call of the Messiah. Just like millions Jewish grooms have 'called' their bride so the Messiah-Jesus-groom calls His bride elect. It's getting a bit to complex after that to keep anyone interested so I just say all those things point toward a marriage supper long before Babylon falls.
If you closely follow all the events you will also notice rapture is just another manmade doctrine because in the whole book of Revelation we read about saints being oppressed and killed (rivers, ships, souls under the alter), etc. That won't happen if they were transported to heaven just before Jacob's trouble tribulation begins.

The use of the feasts always was to show God's plan. Harvest feasts....
They pointed the suffering-servant-Jesus of 2000 years ago. But they also point to king-Jesus of Revelation. It's quite simple: Every Revelation interpretation not aligning with the feasts is false doctrine.


*= The Last Trump isn't last Trump (of Revelation) at all.
Before the Jewish New year there was a whole month of 'preparing/calling'. Each and every day of that month a trumpet was sounded. 30 days in a row. That ended when the month ended at New year. The last trump is the last trump of that series.
So the Last Trump isn't the end at all. It's when the groom get's really active and resurrects His bride which is just the beginning of things.

:2c: