Satan[ one who opposes another[/b]] ,
The LAW accuses while Christ Rebukes :icon_flower:
Mar 8:32 And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.
Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Mar 15:3 And the chief priests accused him of many things: but he answered nothing.
Luk 23:10 And the chief priests and scribes stood and vehemently accused him.
Was Paul accused by the LAW and its Judgment now an Apostle- well Indeed he was and who accused him ?
Act 26:1 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Thou art permitted to speak for thyself. Then Paul stretched forth the hand, and answered for himself:
Act 26:2 I think myself happy, king Agrippa, because I shall answer for myself this day before thee touching all the things whereof""""" I am accused of the Jews: """
We all Know Christ called Peter Satan , well Now its Moses Turn
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the """accuser of our brethren is cast down,"" which"" accused them before our God day and night. """ Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
The BODY of MOSES is the Law of Judgment which accuses - Heres Moses- the representation of the law
Jhn 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust.
Revelation is LAW v Grace and TRUTH- just ponder its theTestimony of Christ who spent his ministry speaking to HIS kin folk around the sea of Galilie-
why on earth come LOGIC would this Differ within HIS Testimony :mshock:
This for those who Like scripture and nothing but scripture :icon_flower:
Be Blessed :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
Its seems this Time about Satan is Now Rezon- and why is it we never see the Satan accused but only Rebuked - Put right- Isee no where In Revelation where the adversary is JUDGED[ AS under law]- even to be CAST INTO the Lakeof Fire- the word Ballo can mean Poured into a river- For mine THE LORD can use the adversity tto bring about HIS purpose as he Did with JOB - but again for mine ALL HIS his work NOT satan as an entity
1Ki 11:23 And God stirred him up [another] adversary, Rezon the son of Eliadah, which fled from his lord Hadadezer king of Zobah:
1Ki 11:24 And he gathered men unto him, and became captain over a band, when David slew them [of Zobah]: and they went to Damascus, and dwelt therein, and reigned in Damascus.
1Ki 11:25 And he was an adversary to Israel all the days of Solomon, beside the mischief that Hadad [did]: and he abhorred Israel, and reigned over Syria.
yet another SATAN
1Ki 11:14 And the LORD3068 stirred up6965 an adversary7854 unto Solomon8010, Hadad1908 the Edomite130: he [was] of the king's4428 seed2233 in Edom123
Personally I can see that the adversary being nature of the Beast - the carnal Mind being satan - anything that oposses HIS will and Intent BUT also Used to Bring forth HIS purpose AS wiith the destruction of the Flesh :icon_flower:-
:icon_flower:
"Personally I can see that the adversary being nature of the Beast - the carnal Mind being satan -" Taffy
If this is true then Luk 4:8 And Jesus answering him said, `Get thee behind me, Adversary, for it hath been written, Thou shalt bow before the Lord thy God, and Him only thou shalt serve.'
Jesus was responding to Peter... Jesus was talking to himself?
For if the carnal mind is satan(adversary) who else was Jesus speaking to? Peter was/is not satan, is he?
" For mine THE LORD can use the adversity tto bring about HIS purpose as he Did with JOB - but again for mine ALL HIS his work NOT satan as an entity" Taffy
That is a truth! Amen! We need to give the Lord God credit when credit is do.
Isa 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 04, 2011, 02:08:16 AM
"Personally I can see that the adversary being nature of the Beast - the carnal Mind being satan -" Taffy
If this is true then Luk 4:8 And Jesus answering him said, `Get thee behind me, Adversary, for it hath been written, Thou shalt bow before the Lord thy God, and Him only thou shalt serve.'
Jesus was responding to Peter... Jesus was talking to himself?
For if the carnal mind is satan(adversary) who else was Jesus speaking to? Peter was/is not satan, is he?
" For mine THE LORD can use the adversity tto bring about HIS purpose as he Did with JOB - but again for mine ALL HIS his work NOT satan as an entity" Taffy
That is a truth! Amen! We need to give the Lord God credit when credit is do.
Isa 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'
If you going to quote me Micah please add it ALL :icon_flower:
anything that oposses HIS will and Intent BUT also Used
to Bring forth HIS purpose AS wiith the destruction of the Flesh he also uses such adversity to bring Purify to the Greater - - we are all are TESTEDas with Job [ who was Righteous and NOT self Righteous as some believe ] and the Lord show us By example-
Firstly theres NOTHING you say in refute of Moses Being satan - :icon_flower: but this guys still an entity right?
did you Notice the LORD STIRS up within - which to happened to be satan - but again No comment - or rezon -?
can you comment on these first before we continue
Thanks? :icon_flower:
"anything that oposses HIS will and Intent BUT also Used to Bring forth HIS purpose AS wiith the destruction of the Flesh he also uses such adversity to bring Purify to the Greater - - we are all are TESTEDas with Job [ who was Righteous and NOT self Righteous as some believe ] and the Lord show us By example-" Taffy I had nothing do disagree with on this part of your quote sorry for not using the space.
Moses is not and was not the adversary or satan as you say.
"but this guys still an entity right?" Taffy
No.
"did you Notice the LORD STIRS up within - which to happened to be satan...: Taffy I Dont understand this.
Rezon.......You got me here, I dont know anything about rezon except for sports and fiddle bows. :sigh:
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 04, 2011, 02:38:51 AM
"anything that oposses HIS will and Intent BUT also Used to Bring forth HIS purpose AS wiith the destruction of the Flesh he also uses such adversity to bring Purify to the Greater - - we are all are TESTEDas with Job [ who was Righteous and NOT self Righteous as some believe ] and the Lord show us By example-" Taffy I had nothing do disagree with on this part of your quote sorry for not using the space.
Moses is not and was not the adversary or satan as you say.
"but this guys still an entity right?" Taffy
No.
"did you Notice the LORD STIRS up within - which to happened to be satan...: Taffy I Dont understand this.
Rezon.......You got me here, I dont know anything about rezon except for sports and fiddle bows. :sigh:
Micah
ya kinda talking in Riddles Bud - Im not going to Contend with you Friend - believe what you will
Maybe Just digest whats been said check the scripps posted opposed to assuming - I generally mean this with Good Intent :icon_flower:
Every Blessings :icon_flower:
:dontknow: I answered what I understood of your riddles, and I throw the bad food out rather than digest it. As for contending....as you wish.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 04, 2011, 02:47:42 AM
:dontknow: I answered what I understood of your riddles, and I throw the bad food out rather than digest it. As for contending....as you wish.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
:icon_flower:
O cmon, I know Moses might seem a bit hard hearted, but to call him Satan that's just taking things over board :Sparkletooth:
Quote from: thinktank on January 04, 2011, 06:00:31 PM
O cmon, I know Moses might seem a bit hard hearted, but to call him Satan that's just taking things over board :Sparkletooth:
:icon_flower:
Moses Being the
BODY of Moses being the
LAW \ Judgment ie SIN of the FLESH, , tis why the scripture mentions
ITS MOSES that accuses YOU not I-
The BODY of Moses is what accuses , this is the adversary written in Revelation which NO LONGER has Power OVER DEATH Death , THEREFORE IS CAST OUT" Through the Power of the Cross :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on January 03, 2011, 08:43:15 PM
:icon_flower:
Its seems this Time about Satan is Now Rezon- and why is it we never see the Satan accused but only Rebuked - Put right- Isee no where In Revelation where the adversary is JUDGED[ AS under law]- even to be CAST INTO the Lakeof Fire- the word Ballo can mean Poured into a river- For mine THE LORD can use the adversity tto bring about HIS purpose as he Did with JOB - but again for mine ALL HIS his work NOT satan as an entity
1Ki 11:23 And God stirred him up [another] adversary, Rezon the son of Eliadah, which fled from his lord Hadadezer king of Zobah:
1Ki 11:24 And he gathered men unto him, and became captain over a band, when David slew them [of Zobah]: and they went to Damascus, and dwelt therein, and reigned in Damascus.
1Ki 11:25 And he was an adversary to Israel all the days of Solomon, beside the mischief that Hadad [did]: and he abhorred Israel, and reigned over Syria.
yet another SATAN
1Ki 11:14 And the LORD3068 stirred up6965 an adversary7854 unto Solomon8010, Hadad1908 the Edomite130: he [was] of the king's4428 seed2233 in Edom123
Personally I can see that the adversary being nature of the Beast - the carnal Mind being satan - anything that oposses HIS will and Intent BUT also Used to Bring forth HIS purpose AS wiith the destruction of the Flesh :icon_flower:-
:icon_flower:
Okay let me get this straight. You are saying because
the word "adversary" means "satan" in the Hebrew or that the word satan in the KJV means satan, opponent; adversary) that this Rizon becomes satan(adversary?) What about Num. 22:22, ISam.29:4, I Kings 5:4?
You do know why we are called satan by the terrorists it is because we are considered their adversary and opponent. So is America satan/adversary and the accuser?
:icon_flower:
Im not saying THE SRIPTURES ARE- :icon_flower:
and for the Other three scripts Thanks very Much for furthering the Point :icon_flower:
Satan[ one who opposes another
Ya coming from a Linear perspective Micah :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
Should I have furthered anything more it was not for your built assumption. :sigh: :mshock:
Its seems this Time about Satan is Now Rezon- and why is it we never see the Satan accused but only Rebuked - Put right- Isee no where In Revelation where the adversary is JUDGED[ AS under law]- even to be CAST INTO the Lakeof Fire- the word Ballo can mean Poured into a river- For mine THE LORD can use the adversity tto bring about HIS purpose as he Did with JOB - but again for mine ALL HIS his work NOT satan as an entity
Taffy
Remember that the term Devil is simply a generic term, similar to God, it is a title. But if you read the scriptures you will notice there are 3 Gods, unless you hate the three, but still you would have 2 Gods, who function together as God.
So the devil would have angels, powers and demons under him, together all these forces are the devil, the adversary to God and his people, but there is only one serpent, who is cursed above all cattle, the leader of cattle, the leader of fallen angels, God sends destroying angels to punish the wicked, either these angels are his holy angels, or they are the fallen angels that he uses for his purpose.
The scripture says that we will judge angels? Why judge angels if they did not beak the law?
The scipture also says that the charged the angels with folly, the heavens are not clean in his sight.
Quote from: thinktank on January 05, 2011, 12:46:49 AM
Its seems this Time about Satan is Now Rezon- and why is it we never see the Satan accused but only Rebuked - Put right- Isee no where In Revelation where the adversary is JUDGED[ AS under law]- even to be CAST INTO the Lakeof Fire- the word Ballo can mean Poured into a river- For mine THE LORD can use the adversity tto bring about HIS purpose as he Did with JOB - but again for mine ALL HIS his work NOT satan as an entity
Taffy
Remember that the term Devil is simply a generic term, similar to God, it is a title. But if you read the scriptures you will notice there are 3 Gods, unless you hate the three, but still you would have 2 Gods, who function together as God.
So the devil would have angels, powers and demons under him, together all these forces are the devil, the adversary to God and his people, but there is only one serpent, who is cursed above all cattle, the leader of cattle, the leader of fallen angels, God sends destroying angels to punish the wicked, either these angels are his holy angels, or they are the fallen angels that he uses for his purpose.
The scripture says that we will judge angels? Why judge angels if they did not beak the law?
The scipture also says that the charged the angels with folly, the heavens are not clean in his sight.
Remember that the term Devil is simply a generic term, similar to God, it is a title. a Name gives definition to Its nature - -- the Nature of satan is adversity -
one who opposes another-
The word Aggelos imbibes MORE the celestrial Biengs-
Paul and JB were noted as
ANGELS- angels are Purely MESSENGERS- thats what IT MEANS- you May find the aggelos we Judge[ In righteous judgment ] are Men-
I do not deny that there is a mixture and confusion over the term angels, signifying supernatural beings of light and Angels as in messangers, whether they be men or spirit men or resurected men. I for one beleive there are supernatural angels such as Gabriel, but also see that sometimes the word angel could be used to signify resurected saints, or men who are no longer technically men because they are now living in heaven and have bodies similar to angels, so they look like them and are given the same title as them in certain scriptures.
Interesting conversation you guys have going on here . . . just coming into this one, what it appears to me is, several individuals from "different" perspectives trying to describe the undescribable. It may help to first understand that Taffy seems to be speaking on dimensional terms rather than litteral.
This principle or nature of explanation seems to always trip people up the most. The only way to see it spiritually is to let go of trying to enforce it literally. My mind operates in this realm through logic and reason. That's what it was created to do. But the hurdle comes when we enter into the things in the spirit and attempt to assert the same rules of operation from "this" realm and apply them in the Spirit realm. Jesus lived in this principle.
In fact, for the first segment of his ministry, it was all about explaining what the kingdom was like. Why would he have to do that? Because the principles through which the kingdom operates is not the same principles through which our natural realm operates. We can't blend one into the other and we can't even "see" into the one while still embracing the other.
We all have veils that blind us from the invisible things around us. And proof of our understanding of the facts isn't what unlocks the kingdom in us. Submission and faith, however, are likened to the law and the prophets. With the combination of the two, truth pours out and life births through and out of us with little or no effort on our part.
I suppose it may be easier to see what Taffy's sharing if we'd say "in a sense" Moses is satan. The name "moses" literally means "to draw out". He was named that because of the way he was discovered as a baby floating down the river. He was "drawn out" which is the perspective the mother had when he was discovered. But God had other plans and uses for that name. God would use him to draw out a nation in bondage to a become a great nation in freedom.
And in doing so, Moses was his tool he used to establish a nation of law. Becasue he was the one that introduced law to an entire nation, that became his identity. which again is why we see him reappear at the mount of transfiguration. Moses and Elijah weren't there just because they were close friends with Jesus. Everything is done with purpose, on purpose. Everything Jesus said was in parables. It ALWAYS had more than one meaning. It frustrated those who were vaguely familiar with his teachings, those who wanted to see him dead, and those who were the closest to him.
He always use natural experiences to illuminate spiritual truths. Moses wasn't just a man, it's what he represented that God was declaring and proclaiming. Do you realize that when Israel lost the ark in battle and finally got it back, that when they did get it back, it was never the same? Before they lost it, they had all of the elements in it. But when they got it back, two of the three elements were missing. The elements are the very natures of the fullness of God.
The law through the two tablets of 10 commandments, the prophets through Aaron's rod that budded, and the daily bread of manna. But when they lost the ark, they lost the daily bread and they lost the life in the rod that budded, the spiritual breath . . .all they had left was cold, stone law. But the mount of transfiguration happened so that we'd see God was bringing a healing to that which was lost. He was restoring the fullness of his presence to his people through what was about to transpire with Jesus. What was it they were speaking amongst themselves about? Not just his death and burial, but also his resurrection. They were returning all three elements back to their rightful place in the purpose of God to men . . crap . .break is over, I gotta go back to work.
So if Moses represented the law being restored as part of God's whole nature on the mount of transfiguration then is it any wonder that the body of Moses would be connected to that same picture? The body of Moses . . .the skeletal remains . . .the framework of laws foundation. The adversary desires to have it. Everyone is so busy arguing the issue over the generations, but is anyone asking the right questions surrounding it?
According to traditional thinking, is or isn't Satan a spiritual entity? Is he a spirit or not? I believe the majority would be adamant in saying he is. All right then, let's say he is. Are the bones of Moses spiritual? Or are they natural? What bones are we talking about? IF there is a literal satan and IF he lilterally fought with an angel to try to get them, what in the world does satan want to do with the skeletal remains of ANYONE??? What would an evil spirit have to do with a pile of dead bones . . literal bones? And IF this same satan is truly a spirit entity . . .where was he when Moses died? How could he not know what God did with Moses body? And for that matter . . .. why is Moses the ONLY human being that God buried?
Why didn't God bury Abraham? Why is there no record that God buried Adam? Solomon was the most blessed by God . . .where was God when he died? Why Moses? Why not David?? Seriously, if we want to preach this literally, why aren't we asking those questions?
For me, it all goes back to parables. We are all living parables. God uses men and men's experiences as examples, as principles that display his nature in all things. It wasn't literal bones anymore than it was a literal satan. It's all a spiritual picture of the power of carnality desiring to use the framework of God's law against us to keep us in confusion, judgment and bondage. The reason for me why God buried Moses is because in and through Christ, God buried the law . . .Christ fulfilled the law . . . the law was "buried" in Christ.
Carnality can not touch what God has buried not just because "he" buried it, but because of "where" he buried it. The law in and of itself "became" the adversary because it was made for a people during a specific time for a specific purpose. And once it was fulfilled, it was no longer needed. But those who continue to dig it up, to embrace a law that God has already buried, they can never enter into the kingdom . . .the dimensional things of God because they're too sold on building facts and proof when all the while the Father only responds to those who walk and live through faith.
Was Moses Satan? I believe there were times in his natural life that he "became" an adversary to God's overall plan only because from time to time he would take matters into his own hands rather than let God deal with the situation, but at the same time, how many of us haven't been there, done that??
There is a religious mindset built around this satan thing and until we allow God to help us get over that, there are many other parts to his nature that hinge on that very issue that we'll also struggle with as well.
Many on this site believe that Jesus died for the entire world . . .that his resurrection was not to give us an option to choose heaven over hell, but it was/is the solution. We believe none are going to hell, yet we struggle with the rest of it then. For me, satan is what my mind "is". It's always adversarial toward the nature of God. the devil is what my mind "does". It is an accuser. Can we push through the flesh, push through the natural, push through "our" thinking and enter into the next dimension of what Scripture is really telling us.
Excellent post Nathan :thumbsup:
What about the bones of Elijah? wasn't that literal bones that Elisha needed to touch?
Maybe satan wanted the bones of Moses because he is the accuser of the brethren and according to Jesus, there is one who will accuse you, even Moses.
Perhaps the devil wanted the bones to sit on his mantle piece
A token for the future, when Moses accuses the people of God (those who desire to be under the bondage of the law, not those who follow Christ) for not holding the law.
QuoteThere is a religious mindset built around this satan thing and until we allow God to help us get over that, there are many other parts to his nature that hinge on that very issue that we'll also struggle with as well.
Many on this site believe that Jesus died for the entire world . . .that his resurrection was not to give us an option to choose heaven over hell, but it was/is the solution. We believe none are going to hell, yet we struggle with the rest of it then. For me, satan is what my mind "is". It's always adversarial toward the nature of God. the devil is what my mind "does". It is an accuser. Can we push through the flesh, push through the natural, push through "our" thinking and enter into the next dimension of what Scripture is really telling us.
Missed you Nathan, wow, that was incedibly well said!
:HeartThrob:
Just weighing in to say I believe Satan is a real being, demons are real, angels are real.
I also believe what you guys are saying in that we obviously have a 'weakness' which allows us to be buffeted about by dark spiritual forces--which weakness one could call the flesh, I guess.
So, I would say, no, Moses is not Satan, I am not Satan, you are not Satan--although any human can be greatly influenced and even possessed. Satan is not the law but he uses the law to accuse us.
What is Satan's goal in the book of Job? God is bragging on Job, so one goal is to discredit God for his poor taste and judgment by breaking Job. But, more importantly, the goal is to break God's hold on Job by turning Job against God. His goal is to destroy the man, and that is always his goal--total, and utter, destruction of mankind.
In Job's case, he didn't succeed. :2c:
QuoteWhat is Satan's goal in the book of Job? God is bragging on Job, so one goal is to discredit God for his poor taste and judgment by breaking Job. But, more importantly, the goal is to break God's hold on Job by turning Job against God. His goal is to destroy the man, and that is always his goal--total, and utter, destruction of mankind.
In Job's case, he didn't succeed.
What I disagree with here is to say that, sometimes, satan is able to discredit God and His judgement, a statement which I find to be in contradiction with God's innerent perfection.
Quote from: Quaesitor on January 10, 2011, 10:45:30 PM
QuoteWhat is Satan's goal in the book of Job? God is bragging on Job, so one goal is to discredit God for his poor taste and judgment by breaking Job. But, more importantly, the goal is to break God's hold on Job by turning Job against God. His goal is to destroy the man, and that is always his goal--total, and utter, destruction of mankind.
In Job's case, he didn't succeed.
What I disagree with here is to say that, sometimes, satan is able to discredit God and His judgement, a statement which I find to be in contradiction with God's innerent perfection.
Oh, I didn't mean that he was able. I meant it was his goal with mankind in general, and Job in particular.
I think he is able to discredit God in the minds/hearts of man though
But in keeping with this particular thread, "if" Satan is as you say he is in that he is a "real" (which no one is saying satan isn't "real, we're just saying we ALL have the potential to be him through our carnality) entity, then why would a spirit desire to have natural bones? How could a spirit not know where these natural bones are? And for that matter, if Satan is this real entity, then apparently he's omni-present . .same as God? Because a lot of Christians seem to be proclaiming he's everywhere all the time.
:cloud9: There is a mystery there......
ah . . only if you try to put satan as a literal spirit being with Moses "literal' bones . . .but if you look at it dimensionally, it becomes a carnal force at work attempting to use the foundation of law against the saints to hold them in religious bondage. And this is what Jesus overcame . . .there are only two laws that are truly at work within us . . .loving God and loving each other.
Jesus speaking to Paul, recorded in Acts 26 - 18 'Who art Thou, Lord?' Now the Lord said, 'I am Jesus, Whom you are persecuting.
16 But rise and stand on your feet, for I was seen by you for this, to fix upon you before for a deputy and a witness both of what you have perceived and that in which I will be seen by you,
17 extricating you from the people and from the nations, to whom I am commissioning you,
18 to open their eyes, to turn them about from darkness to light and from the authority of Satan to God, for them to get a pardon of sins and an allotment among those who have been hallowed by faith that is in Me.'
Quote from: jabcat on January 11, 2011, 09:12:30 PM
Jesus speaking to Paul, recorded in Acts 26 - 18 'Who art Thou, Lord?' Now the Lord said, 'I am Jesus, Whom you are persecuting.
16 But rise and stand on your feet, for I was seen by you for this, to fix upon you before for a deputy and a witness both of what you have perceived and that in which I will be seen by you,
17 extricating you from the people and from the nations, to whom I am commissioning you,
18 to open their eyes, to turn them about from darkness to light and from the authority of Satan to God, for them to get a pardon of sins and an allotment among those who have been hallowed by faith that is in Me.'
HI James :icon_flower:
The LORD having Cleansed the PRIDE in the LAW [ Ministry of DEATH]- HAVING HIS Blindness removed =Scales [ PRIDE]by eyesalve ,once Holding Paul in captivity, repeating his experience -
The[ Body of Moses] shown once again to be Oppossing THE reality of Christ and the NC- :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Darkness being the Absence of LIGHT even those being the Gentiles- Darkness being in Opposition to LIGHT - that which opposses
:icon_flower:
Hi Taf. Read that scrip when I got up, thought it a pertinent one. I didn't give any comment, folk will get out of it based on where they are on the road at the time. May be helpful. :bigGrin:
"Darkness being the Absence of LIGHT even those being the Gentiles- Darkness being in Opposition to LIGHT - that which opposses"
Your depth is deep. What did you say?
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 12, 2011, 01:59:39 AM
"Darkness being the Absence of LIGHT even those being the Gentiles- Darkness being in Opposition to LIGHT - that which opposses"
Your depth is deep. What did you say?
Levitical law opposes the order of Malchezadek . . . it had to be removed before the other could become established. Flesh opposes spirit . . .we are spirit beings manifesting in bodies of flesh . . .we contain the clashing to two climates. we are both a cold front and a warm front, a high pressure and a low pressure. The law in our flesh constantly stands at opposition to the laws of the spirit. The Moses in us is in constant conflict with the Good Shepherd in us . . .
It's all dimensional . . .ya just gotta step back and lay your head down so your heart can see it.
Quote from: Nathan on January 12, 2011, 02:05:24 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 12, 2011, 01:59:39 AM
"Darkness being the Absence of LIGHT even those being the Gentiles- Darkness being in Opposition to LIGHT - that which opposses"
Your depth is deep. What did you say?
Levitical law opposes the order of Malchezadek . . . it had to be removed before the other could become established. Flesh opposes spirit . . .we are spirit beings manifesting in bodies of flesh . . .we contain the clashing to two climates. we are both a cold front and a warm front, a high pressure and a low pressure. The law in our flesh constantly stands at opposition to the laws of the spirit. The Moses in us is in constant conflict with the Good Shepherd in us . . .
It's all dimensional . . .ya just gotta step back and lay your head down so your heart can see it.
Levitical law does not oppose the order of Melchizedek in the sense of two equal and opposite things. One is operating in a transitory realm, the other in eternal realm, so the point of view is different. One leads to death, the other to eternal life. When the law is brought into the carnal realm, it is degraded. They are not in the same realm, until Jesus unifies them.
Traducer means to libel. The latin--to lead astray in transference.
23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.--Mat 23
Latin traducere
to lead across, transfer, degrade, from tra-, trans- trans- + ducere to lead — more at tow
First Known Use: 1573
Quote from: Molly on January 12, 2011, 04:37:05 AM
Quote from: Nathan on January 12, 2011, 02:05:24 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 12, 2011, 01:59:39 AM
"Darkness being the Absence of LIGHT even those being the Gentiles- Darkness being in Opposition to LIGHT - that which opposses"
Your depth is deep. What did you say?
Levitical law opposes the order of Malchezadek . . . it had to be removed before the other could become established. Flesh opposes spirit . . .we are spirit beings manifesting in bodies of flesh . . .we contain the clashing to two climates. we are both a cold front and a warm front, a high pressure and a low pressure. The law in our flesh constantly stands at opposition to the laws of the spirit. The Moses in us is in constant conflict with the Good Shepherd in us . . .
It's all dimensional . . .ya just gotta step back and lay your head down so your heart can see it.
Levitical law does not oppose the order of Melchizedek in the sense of two equal and opposite things. One is operating in a transitory realm, the other in eternal realm, so the point of view is different. One leads to death, the other to eternal life. When the law is brought into the carnal realm, it is degraded. They are not in the same realm, until Jesus unifies them.
Traducer means to libel. The latin--to lead astray in transference.
23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
--Mat 23
Latin traducere to lead across, transfer, degrade, from tra-, trans- trans- + ducere to lead — more at tow
First Known Use: 1573
:icon_flower:
Such is the dimentional factor Molly :icon_flower:
prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
a) a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,
2) metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him
SLANDER
a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report: a slander against his good name. :icon_flower:
Quote from: TaffySuch is the dimentional factor Molly
Yes, but what does it mean? Don't you think that when the law is translated by fallen man into this fallen world, it loses its key components, as Jesus said, justice, mercy, and faith?
Those making the law, those keeping the law, consider themselves already justified. Hitler broke no laws. If he needed a law to do something awful, he just made one. This is happening today. Soon, our first ten amendments will be against the law at the rate we're going. But those who hold the law above the spiritual qualities of God--justice, mercy, and faith--accuse God, accuse the brethren, and make themselves god.
It's the oldest trick in the book--started by Satan in the garden--
did God really say...? Using the law to murder instead of to bring life. Remember, the scribes and Pharisees were lawyers.
14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
--Mat 23
I'm sure they took the widows' houses legally, just like they do today. :mblush:
:dontknow:
I've gotten lost in this argument . . .
Are you saying Molly, that the law is in harmony with Malchezidek order?
Quote from: Nathan on January 12, 2011, 05:39:39 PM
:dontknow:
I've gotten lost in this argument . . .
Are you saying Molly, that the law is in harmony with Malchezidek order?
No argument Nathan - just a different perspective :icon_flower:
Quote from: Nathan on January 12, 2011, 05:39:39 PM
:dontknow:
I've gotten lost in this argument . . .
Are you saying Molly, that the law is in harmony with Malchezidek order?
Yes, that it should be, and that it is under Christ.
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
--Mat 5
:icon_flower:
One admits Molly Im kinda lost too with what you posted :dontknow:
Quote from: Taffy on January 12, 2011, 06:10:10 PM
:icon_flower:
One admits Molly Im kinda lost too with what you posted :dontknow:
well, you say that moses is satan because the law accuses and leads to death, right?
And, I am saying, Jesus did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. In other words, God's law is not meant to be used the way it is used in the hands of those who worship satan. Or you explain to me what Jesus meant, if it is something different. How did he fulfill the law? Their law put an innocent man to death [as it so often does day in and day out]. In other words, they worship law, and the rule of law, not God.
John 15:25
But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
Quote from: Molly on January 12, 2011, 06:20:37 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 12, 2011, 06:10:10 PM
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One admits Molly Im kinda lost too with what you posted :dontknow:
well, you say that moses is satan because the law accuses and leads to death, right?
And, I am saying, Jesus did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. In other words, God's law is not meant to be used the way it is used in the hands of those who worship satan. Or you explain to me what Jesus meant, if it is something different. How did he fulfill the law? Their law put an innocent man to death [as it so often does day in and day out]. In other words, they worship law, and the rule of law, not God.
John 15:25
But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
Quotewell, you say that moses is satan because the law accuses and leads to death, right?
No Molly thats The Title of the Tread -written that way to Intice some to read- :icon_flower:
We are speaking of the BODY of moses and its representation, Nathan expounded it plianly one could add no more to it, That which accuses , being likened to the Ministry of DEATH
As I dont see satan as an entity, but Moses being One - then How can Moses Be a Literal satan?
The inherent Nature we are born with, that Being the Enmity of the Carnal Mind is the adversay of the LIFE were are inherting - again Molly the term adversary is Dimentional in its usage :icon_flower:
QuoteAnd, I am saying, Jesus did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. .
Amen Molly -The Royal Law fulfilled within - as others have been explaining on the Battle of the Flesh Thread
:icon_flower:
well, ok, let's look at it from another angle then.
Thou shalt not kill.
That is one of the laws of God. Is this contrary to the order of Melchizedek? I would say no.
It doesn't seem so to me.
But, man has put all his caveats in, except in cases of war, pre-emptive war, state sponsored death penalty, self defense, etc.
So now according to law there are cases where I can kill.
So here is a law which man has messed around with it until it does lead literally to death and the law is thou shalt not kill.
So which is wrong--the law or man's interpretation of the law or neither?
We would chuckle, if it were not so sad, at the idea of man putting God to death for blasphemy.
Matthew 26:65
the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
Mat 5:21 :icon_flower:
Molly - Of course men within their Enmity have" what you call played around with it" so mankind is reaping the results" - It mans Inherent Nature -that which is adverse\opposses HIM :icon_flower:
Mans Nature being the BEAST likened to SATAN :icon_flower:
Theres No Blaming the Serpent OR a so called entity named Satan -Eve Blamed the Serpent, Adam Eve - ITS our Nature within [ Carnality]which is at Fault - Nobody else -:icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on January 12, 2011, 07:35:54 PM
Mat 5:21 :icon_flower:
Molly - Of course men within their Enmity have" what you call played around with it" so mankind is reaping the results" - It mans Inherent Nature -that which is adverse\opposses HIM :icon_flower:
Mans Nature being the BEAST likened to SATAN :icon_flower:
Theres No Blaming the Serpent OR a so called entity named Satan -Eve Blamed the Serpent, Adam Eve - ITS our Nature within [ Carnality]which is at Fault - NOTHING ELSE :icon_flower:
See, I just don't agree with that.
I have no desire to bilk widows out of their homes for my own power and aggrandizement, and pretend its the law, but these men did.
This is a group who both Jesus and John the Baptist calls Vipers, hypocrites [actors], snakes, den of theives. He tells them their father is the devil.
These are the men who held a trial [the law] at midnight and broke every rule in the book for their own benefit--they make the law, and as such, [like God, they think], they are therefore above the law. This attitude abounds today, and its not coming from me.
4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.--Mat 23
Quote from: Molly on January 12, 2011, 07:52:57 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 12, 2011, 07:35:54 PM
Mat 5:21 :icon_flower:
Molly - Of course men within their Enmity have" what you call played around with it" so mankind is reaping the results" - It mans Inherent Nature -that which is adverse\opposses HIM :icon_flower:
Mans Nature being the BEAST likened to SATAN :icon_flower:
Theres No Blaming the Serpent OR a so called entity named Satan -Eve Blamed the Serpent, Adam Eve - ITS our Nature within [ Carnality]which is at Fault - NOTHING ELSE :icon_flower:
See, I just don't agree with that.
I have no desire to bilk widows out of their homes for my own power and aggrandizement, and pretend its the law, but these men did.
This is a group who both Jesus and John the Baptist calls Vipers, hypocrites [actors], snakes, den of theives. He tells them their father is the devil.
These are the men who held a trial [the law] at midnight and broke every rule in the book for their own benefit--they make the law, and as such, [like God, they think], they are therefore above the law. This attitude abounds today, and its not coming from me.
4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
--Mat 23
Molly - thiis post bears witness to all ive been given to share- :icon_flower:
Blessings
Ok, well I'm just saying that it is not the Law of God as given by Moses that is the problem, or at odds with Melchizedek, it is the implementation of it by certain men who worship Satan. My :2c:
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
--Rom 13
For me it's simple.
Jesus didn't came to do away with the law and/or works.
He came to do away with what was added.
The priests were nothing but a police force. (the Romans even allowed them to keep that authority) They were supposed to uphold the law as intended by God.
But they added all kind of stuff and regulations. The part that Jesus was about to destroy.
And because now everyone has the law written on their heart everyone knows what the priests/police knew.
Jesus did away with the priests and their false laws.
The (letter of the law) does not kill. It saves. It's simple; the laws came from God. There is no way God is gonna punish someone for keeping His own laws. That's like saying His own laws are flawed.
The law saves but manmade additions kill.
And manmade priority. Jesus healing the sick and the pulling the animal out of the ditch proves that. Jesus wasn't promoting breaking Fathers sabbath command as often as possible. He was showing that the "love your neigbor" command overrules the rest on Sabbath command.
Even knowing I'm alone in this, it's my view :2c:
But they added all kind of stuff and regulations :icon_flower:
Laws are issued by the governments.
I can make my own sets of laws but it's unlikely a judges is impressed with them and/or sees them as a law.
Because Father was/is the law issuing authority of Israel it means all added things were not laws at all. Maybe outlaws :icon_jokercolor:
So the additions are not laws at all from the POV of the issuing Authority and His Son.
So also in that way the laws were not done away. Simple because none authorized laws are not laws at all.
The only thing that was done away with is the the priests themselfs.
Because everyone became a priest with laws written on their heart.
:cloud9: The law was designed to raise up the tares in the hearts of men. That's why Paul said, when the law came, I died. Because God knows what is in the heart of man is emnity against Him, but He needed MAN to know it by experience, giving him something to overcome thru Christ in the process. The law is not evil in itself, Paul said, it is just and good.
But the HEART of man is what perverts it's purpose. The Spirit of Christ fulfills the law by writting it on our hearts. We learn to do the essence of the law because it's become our new nature within, not something to accomplish on the outside. The HG does the works, and this is what the works accomplishes.
I read recently an article where he claimed that he had found in the old Jewish texts, that the Pharisees had crushed the hand of the man with a withered hand that Jesus healed on the Sabbath, with a stone, because he was a stone mason and they caught him working on the Sabbath. So it wasn't just that Jesus healed that man on the Sabbath, but that He further insulted and showed forth the Pharisee's corrupt hearts for what they were, and so infuriated them even more, by healing the man they had mutilated, on the Sabbath. If true, oh, to have been a fly on the wall for that one..... :laughing7:
Quote from: Cardinal on January 12, 2011, 09:15:18 PM
:cloud9: The law was designed to raise up the tares in the hearts of men. That's why Paul said, when the law came, I died. Because God knows what is in the heart of man is emnity against Him, but He needed MAN to know it by experience, giving him something to overcome thru Christ in the process. The law is not evil in itself, Paul said, it is just and good.
So doesn't that mean Jesus was NOT destroying God's law?
QuoteI read recently an article where he claimed that he had found in the old Jewish texts, that the Pharisees had crushed the hand of the man with a withered hand that Jesus healed on the Sabbath, with a stone, because he was a stone mason and they caught him working on the Sabbath. So it wasn't just that Jesus healed that man on the Sabbath, but that He further insulted and showed forth the Pharisee's corrupt hearts for what they were, and so infuriated them even more, by healing the man they had mutilated, on the Sabbath. If true, oh, to have been a fly on the wall for that one..... :laughing7:
The man with the withered (sp?) hand was the high priest of the qumran sect. =Scribes =Dead Sea Scroll writers
Paul said the old, that was unable to save, was passing away so the New could come - Jesus.
IMO, some of the law was given to protect the children of Israel - set boundaries for them; while much of the rest was given to both point to Christ, and prove man could not save himself by his own works. :2c:
Quote from: jabcat on January 12, 2011, 09:37:04 PM
Paul said the old, that was unable to save, was passing away so the New could come - Jesus.
I knew that answer would be posted.
The law can't save. But that's not a flaw in the law. The law was/is perfect because it was wriiten by Father.
But because WE can't keep the law Jesus had to "fix the problem".
So yes the law kills BECAUSE breaking the law means death. But that was NOT because the law was wrong.
Bad law and bad people both lead to death.
Good law and bad people also leads to death.
I think cause and result should not be confused.
The Ten Commandments were laws set in the OT. Did Jesus destroy the: You shall not murder and you shall have no other gods before me commands....?
I'm taking the liberty to answer that question for you: No.
Then my next question is; if Jesus (clearly) didn't abolish all old laws were is the list of laws that He did abolish?
Quoteoh, to have been a fly on the wall for that one.....
:icon_flower:
WW . . .not sure where you got the thinking that the letter doesn't kill . . .it seems to be in direct contrast with what Scripture has stated on such matters.
Jabcat, for me it's not the law that was abolished, it was the levitical priesthood which required us to adhere to the laws to the best of our physical abilities . . .which was/is an impossibility . .no man can come into righteousness by living in law. It wasn't for "us" to even consider. It was something God used to pronounce grace over judgment. Law was given to reveal to man, it's impossible to enter into the kingdom by administering law in acheiving our righteousness. It was used to reveal to us that our own labors will always fall short, no matter how hard we try to live by the law, we'll always miss the mark because law isn't illuminating grace . . .that's why the Levitical order had to be removed.
It did what it was supposed to do. But I still stand on what I originally shared, law is in opposition to grace. The crazy part is . . .law was still necessary to be established in preparation for grace to abound.
Okay, here's my platform of affirmation on why I say what I say in that law is in opposition to the order of the Melchezedek lineage . . .
Hebrews 7
11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. 13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is declared:
"You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek."[a]
18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.
The law in all of it's glory and greatness, was never intended to be used to lead us into the kingdom. It's purpose was merely a bridge to get them from Moses to Jesus . . .it was never meant for us to now take a hold of and embrace. Is that too bold of me to suggest?
Good that you knew that would be posted, then you know the scrips :laughing7:
I've also said this before, but I guess I'll say it again. When one is spiritually reborn, "to do right" is written on our hearts, convicted and done by the Holy Spirit working through us - His works, no longer ours - therefor, the law written on our hearts of flesh rather than on stone tablets - just rules to keep.
I'm sure I don't understand it all, but I believe it needs to be "rightly divided/cut", into at least 3 eras; old covenant/law/before Jesus came, the era of Jesus' earthly ministry, and this era, the age of grace (not law). Different things were occurring in each of these eras or administrations. They can't all be lumped together, each serve(d) their purpose. Not all the answers, but a few pieces of the big picture for perspective and to think about, perhaps.
:thumbsup:
QuoteIt did what it was supposed to do. But I still stand on what I originally shared, law is in opposition to grace. The crazy part is . . .law was still necessary to be established in preparation for grace to abound.
Its seems many find this Hard to comprehend
:icon_flower:
Quote from: jabcat on January 12, 2011, 09:58:47 PM
Good that you knew that would be posted, then you know the scrips :laughing7:
Everyone can read scrips.
But our chat proves not everybody understands the scrips. And because I wrote my option, it means my finger points to you and all who oppose me :laughing7:
I have yet to see someone refute my thought. Quoting a verse out of context (again my opinion) isn't going to work for me.
Father is without flaws -> therfore His laws are without flaws -> therefore they are still good
To avoid 'refutations' about sacrificing sheep being abolished :winkgrin: True but that has a very cleary stated reason...
QuoteI've also said this before, but I guess I'll say it again. When one is spiritually reborn, "to do right" is written on our hearts, convicted and done by the Holy Spirit working through us - His works, no longer ours - therefor, the law written on our hearts of flesh rather than on stone tablets - just rules to keep.
Agreed. But WHAT is written on the hearts? Worship satan, murder and lie daily? Or could it be that the laws written on the heart look very much the same as those on the stone tablets?
QuoteI'm sure I don't understand it all, but I believe it needs to be "rightly divided/cut", into at least 3 eras; old covenant/law/before Jesus came, the era of Jesus' earthly ministry, and this era, the age of grace (not law). Different things were occurring in each of these eras or administrations. They can't all be lumped together, each serve(d) their purpose. Not all the answers, but a few pieces of the big picture for perspective and to think about, perhaps.
Sure they serve their purpose.
But that's not my point. The laws Father gave were perfect and still are. Otherwise He would have given flawed laws.
If you read the OT you will see laws are added over time. There isn't a chapther very early in Genesis that gives all laws. New laws are always added to the old ones. Not replacements.
You see it as seperate era's. I don't. I see it as additional era's.
I'm not saying Jesus did nothing. I'm not refuting you thought of grace. None of that.
I'm saying laws are perfect*. But we keep breaking them. And the new convenant means a huge amount of grace is added to the mix. And Jesus bought/triggered that grace.
*= God's laws. Not mans additions, twisting and faulty interpretations of that law.
I probably don't have anymore to add to what I've said Tony, except to question how quoting Paul's revelations on law/grace is out of context. IMO, it very much IS the context. :dontknow: It has to do with the "next step" - only by grace.
Quote from: Taffy on January 12, 2011, 10:04:03 PM
QuoteIt did what it was supposed to do. But I still stand on what I originally shared, law is in opposition to grace. The crazy part is . . .law was still necessary to be established in preparation for grace to abound.
Its seems many find this Hard to comprehend
I know that's why I'm going to explain it again to you all.... :laughing7:
Without laws there can't be sin.
Without laws there can't be grace.
So if Father shows grace it automatically shows laws are still very much in effect!
1+1=2
Dunno why but I keep remembering this (http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/christian_doubletalk.html) article when reading all replies :mblush:
Well, I guess I do have something to add after all :laughing7:. No, the Holy Spirit won't write anything on our hearts against the true will of the Father. We often miss the leading, but the Holy Spirit will lead us into truth - step by step. :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on January 12, 2011, 10:31:07 PM
Well, I guess I do have something to add after all :laughing7:. No, the Holy Spirit won't write anything on our hearts against the true will of the Father. We often miss the leading, but the Holy Spirit will lead us into truth - step by step. :thumbsup:
Temped by teh dark one.... :winkgrin:
Good to see you using the brain God gifted you with. :thumbsup:
Now your brain is warmed up tell me if those commands include for example the ten commandments?
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 12, 2011, 10:28:51 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 12, 2011, 10:04:03 PM
QuoteIt did what it was supposed to do. But I still stand on what I originally shared, law is in opposition to grace. The crazy part is . . .law was still necessary to be established in preparation for grace to abound.
Its seems many find this Hard to comprehend
I know that's why I'm going to explain it again to you all.... :laughing7:
Without laws there can't be sin.
Without laws there can't be grace.
So if Father shows grace it automatically shows laws are still very much in effect!
1+1=2
Dunno why but I keep remembering this (http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/christian_doubletalk.html) article when reading all replies :mblush:
:thumbsup:
Quote from: wwBut that's not my point. The laws Father gave were perfect and still are. Otherwise He would have given flawed laws.
:thumbsup:
Psalm 119:97
O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 12, 2011, 10:28:51 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 12, 2011, 10:04:03 PM
QuoteIt did what it was supposed to do. But I still stand on what I originally shared, law is in opposition to grace. The crazy part is . . .law was still necessary to be established in preparation for grace to abound.
Its seems many find this Hard to comprehend
I know that's why I'm going to explain it again to you all.... :laughing7:
Without laws there can't be sin.
Without laws there can't be grace.
So if Father shows grace it automatically shows laws are still very much in effect!
1+1=2
Dunno why but I keep remembering this (http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/christian_doubletalk.html) article when reading all replies :mblush:
:thumbsup:
Jesus fullfilled the law for us, but if we are truly in Christ, we will not do that which is against Gods laws. There is a verse that says exactly this. In the old testament if we failed we payed the price, but in the new covenant, if we fail the laws, grace covers us, but if we do not strive to obey the law then are we truly in Christ?
In the end the beast makes war against the saints that keep the commandments of God, because those who keep the commandments are confident in christ, but those who disobey the commandments and teach it are considered least in the kingdom of God.