Shawn earlier said he had communicated with a brother that lived locally to him, Bob Evely. I checked him out at his site and found the following interesting info. Others have commented on related thoughts before, but I thought this was a good outline for discussion.
REVELATION vs. THE CONSUMMATION
________________________________________
Many believe that the end of Revelation is a description of the eternal heavens that we will experience when the resurrection takes place. But there are a number of reasons to conclude that this is not the case, and that 1 Corinthians 15 happens after the end of Revelation 22.
In Revelation we observe:
• The slaves of God are reigning (22:5)
• There are still "kings of the earth" (21:24)
But in 1 Corinthians we see:
• All sovereignty, authority and power are nullified (15:24)
In Revelation we observe:
• Christ is seated on the throne (21:5)
But in 1 Corinthians we see:
• Christ must reign until He places all enemies under his feet, and then Christ subjects Himself to God (15:25-28)
In Revelation we observe:
• The lake of fire (second death) still exists (21:8)
But in 1 Corinthians we see:
• The last enemy (death) abolished (15:27)
In Revelation we observe:
• Leaves on the tree for "the cure of the nations" (would seem to imply corruptible bodies needing the leaves to sustain life.)
But in 1 Corinthians we see:
• Incorruptible, spiritual body (15:42-44)
In Revelation we observe:
• Twelve tribes (21:12)
• Twelve apostles (21:14)
• Nations outside city (21:24)
• Nations blessed secondarily thru Israel
But in Paul's writings we see:
• No Jewish primacy
• No barrier between Jew and Gentile
• Joint heirs
Revelation describes life upon the earth, and upon the new earth, in the final age (eon). 1 Corinthians 15 describes what occurs after the ages have been completed, culminating with Christ turning over the Kingdom to God, and God becoming All in all.
http://www.graceevangel.org/
I have this info for quite a while but not as detailed as this one :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on August 17, 2010, 08:55:56 AM
Shawn earlier said he had communicated with a brother that lived locally to him, Bob Evely. I checked him out at his site and found the following interesting info. Others have commented on related thoughts before, but I thought this was a good outline for discussion.
REVELATION vs. THE CONSUMMATION
________________________________________
Many believe that the end of Revelation is a description of the eternal heavens that we will experience when the resurrection takes place. But there are a number of reasons to conclude that this is not the case, and that 1 Corinthians 15 happens after the end of Revelation 22.
In Revelation we observe:
• The slaves of God are reigning (22:5)
• There are still "kings of the earth" (21:24)
But in 1 Corinthians we see:
• All sovereignty, authority and power are nullified (15:24)
John shows in Revelation 4:10-12 & 5:11-14 that Christ is to be given honour and power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and blessing, as he created all things. This is entirely in harmony with the other writings in the NT. For example:
Romans 13:1
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Hebrews 2:8
Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
1 Peter 3:22
Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.Quote from: jabcat on August 17, 2010, 08:55:56 AM
In Revelation we observe:
• Christ is seated on the throne (21:5)
But in 1 Corinthians we see:
• Christ must reign until He places all enemies under his feet, and then Christ subjects Himself to God (15:25-28)
Same comment applies.
Quote from: jabcat on August 17, 2010, 08:55:56 AM
In Revelation we observe:
• The lake of fire (second death) still exists (21:8)
But in 1 Corinthians we see:
• The last enemy (death) abolished (15:27)
Bob apparently interprets the "lake of fire" as a literal lake, and a literal fire; however, I suggest it is a metaphor, that incorporates two OT metaphors; the word of God is called a "fire," [Jeremiah 5:14; 23:29] and "the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." [Isaiah 11:9]
Quote from: jabcat on August 17, 2010, 08:55:56 AM
In Revelation we observe:
• Leaves on the tree for "the cure of the nations" (would seem to imply corruptible bodies needing the leaves to sustain life.)
But in 1 Corinthians we see:
• Incorruptible, spiritual body (15:42-44)
The tree in Revelation 22:2 is the tree of life, symbol of the Spirit. And Paul said that healing is one of the gifts of the Spirit of Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:9
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.Quote from: jabcat on August 17, 2010, 08:55:56 AM
In Revelation we observe:
• Twelve tribes (21:12)
• Twelve apostles (21:14)
• Nations outside city (21:24)
• Nations blessed secondarily thru Israel
But in Paul's writings we see:
• No Jewish primacy
• No barrier between Jew and Gentile
• Joint heirs
Paul says the saints are made nigh to the commonwealth of Israel, by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.He calls the church "the circumcision."
Philippians 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Colossians 2:11
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:Quote from: jabcat on August 17, 2010, 08:55:56 AM
Revelation describes life upon the earth, and upon the new earth, in the final age (eon). 1 Corinthians 15 describes what occurs after the ages have been completed, culminating with Christ turning over the Kingdom to God, and God becoming All in all.
IMO, Dispensationalism and Ultradispensationalism are misguided systems that tend to separate the church from its foundations, which Paul said consist of the
prophets and
apostles.
Ephesians 2:18-21
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: The scripture indicates that John, Peter, and Paul, and all the apostles are included in the holy city, the "Jerusalem above" of Galatians 4:26, as the names of the 12 tribes of Israel are on the 12 angels at the gates, and the names of the 12 apostles are in the foundations of the city. [Revelation 21:12, 14] But E.W. Bullinger, and J.N. Darby, and others, promoted novel theories, that oppose the teaching of the apostles of the Lord, and they unwisely pit one apostle against another, as Bob Evely's article does. IMO, they fulfill Peter's prophecy in 2 Peter 2. 2 Peter 2:1 alludes to the incident in the wilderness, described in Numbers 16, when Korah and Dathan and their followers challenged Moses and Aaron, and the earth opened up and swallowed them all up.
Doug
The main issue I have with the Lake of Fire being interpreted as a metaphor is this verse Rev 20:10
The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
We also know that...
20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.
20:14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
20:15 If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
So, while this might be a metaphor and not a literal flame it's something, or somewhere that created beings/things are either tortured or destroyed. Since it's hard to believe God tortures an inanimate object like Death and Hades...and then it's followed by those not found in the book of life...one has to believe those that are not found in the book of life are also destroyed with death and Hades. I see no Biblical references to anyone or anything coming out of the lake of fire "cleansed".
I also find it interesting that Rev 20:12 states
The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Now, if someone wasn't written in the book how could they be judged by their works written in the book? Is this a reference to how believers are judged? I know there are other references of believers escaping the flames but being judged for their works. This indicates to me you can be saved but there is further judgement based on how you used your God given insights and gifts for the kingdom.
QuoteQuote from: jabcat on Today at 01:55:56 AM
In Revelation we observe:
• The lake of fire (second death) still exists (21:8)
But in 1 Corinthians we see:
• The last enemy (death) abolished (15:27)
Bob apparently interprets the "lake of fire" as a literal lake, and a literal fire; however, I suggest it is a metaphor, that incorporates two OT metaphors; the word of God is called a "fire," [Jeremiah 5:14; 23:29] and "the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." [Isaiah 11:9]
I like Zenders explanation that the Lake of Fire which is the second death is in fact the 2nd death.
The 2nd death is for those deemed unrighteous of living during the last eons.
But it is abolished by Christ when He submit everything to God.
Quote from: shawn on August 17, 2010, 06:14:43 PM
...
I see no Biblical references to anyone or anything coming out of the lake of fire "cleansed".
Revelation 7:9-14
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.Could the "great tribulation" referred to here be the same as the "lake of fire" in Rev. 20? They certainly come out of it "cleansed." They have white robes, which are identified with "the righteousness of saints" in Rev. 19:8.
What else could the purpose of the "lake of fire" be?
Scripture warns us to pray, that we may be accounted worthy to escape the trials that are to come upon the world. The ones who escape are in the first group in Rev. 7.
Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.Also note that the time called "great tribulation" is
unique. There is no other similar event before, or after.
Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.Doug
Could the "great tribulation" referred to here be the same as the "lake of fire" in Rev. 20? They certainly come out of it "cleansed." They have white robes, which are identified with "the righteousness of saints" in Rev. 19:8.
What else could the purpose of the "lake of fire" be?
Doug
Not the same event, but a good point that if believers are cleansed through pain, why can't unbelivers be cleansed through pain. I guess the big difference is that people during the great tribulation repent of their wickedness, but as the letters of the churches propose they will be beaten with stripes and will have to go through this chastening in order to be worthy. That's why the lord says pray that ye may be worthy to escape these things that are to come upon the earth. Those who are not worthy will be beaten with stripes while others will be beaten with many stripes, until they repent and wash themselves in the blood of the lamb.
But the great white throne judgement takes place after the devil has been chained for a thousand years and if one looks at the condition of the world currenty this is impossible, some say that the devil is already chained, but I think they are a bit deluded.
But overall a good point, that if people repent during the great tribulation in the absolute masses, then maybe people will also repent after they get thrown into the lake of fire. After all there is one consistent theme throughout the entire bible and that is, if people repent then God will have mercy, even during the old testament when the blood of Jesus did not exist.
TortureTank,
You often mention pain....
Let's consider these 2 verses:
KJV1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
YLTMat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
kolasis = correction
The actual Greek Phrase is: AIONIOS KOLASIS which literally means, "correction until perfection".
WW1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear is correction until perfection. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
WWMat 25:46 And these shall be corrected until perfected, but the righteous to life age-during.'
Clement insists that punishment in Hades is remedial and restorative (http://www.romancatholicism.org/clement-apokatastasis.htm)
I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment (http://pastorbobcornwall.blogspot.com/2008/11/i-am-convinced-universalist-william.html)
MORE (http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&num=100&q=kolasis%20remidial%20punishment&btnG=Zoeken&meta=&aq=f&oq=)
Quote from: Doug on August 17, 2010, 08:01:04 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 17, 2010, 06:14:43 PM
...
I see no Biblical references to anyone or anything coming out of the lake of fire "cleansed".
Revelation 7:9-14
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Could the "great tribulation" referred to here be the same as the "lake of fire" in Rev. 20? They certainly come out of it "cleansed." They have white robes, which are identified with "the righteousness of saints" in Rev. 19:8.
What else could the purpose of the "lake of fire" be?
Scripture warns us to pray, that we may be accounted worthy to escape the trials that are to come upon the world. The ones who escape are in the first group in Rev. 7.
Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Also note that the time called "great tribulation" is unique. There is no other similar event before, or after.
Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Doug
Possible...but I'm not sure I would call it likely. It doesn't really fit especially when you look at it from a UR perspective. So Satan, the false prophet are thrown into the great tribulation to be tortured forever (or your take on aionion). According to Revelations 7 those in the white robes from the Tribulation are the ones who washed their robes white in the blood of the Lamb. Sounds alot like choice to me. I believe the lake of fire and the tribulation are two distinct events.
I'm really having a hard time with the lake of fire concept. I can almost completely buy the other explanations for Gehenna, Hades, Sheol, and Tartaroo. What I do not understand is people along with death and hades being thrown into the lake of fire. I can't see it being the Great Tribulation. But, like I have said before I am not a Biblical scholar.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 17, 2010, 10:12:20 PM
TortureTank,
You often mention pain....
Let's consider these 2 verses:
KJV1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
YLTMat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
kolasis = correction
The actual Greek Phrase is: AIONIOS KOLASIS which literally means, "correction until perfection".
WW1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear is correction until perfection. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
WWMat 25:46 And these shall be corrected until perfected, but the righteous to life age-during.'
Clement insists that punishment in Hades is remedial and restorative (http://www.romancatholicism.org/clement-apokatastasis.htm)
I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment (http://pastorbobcornwall.blogspot.com/2008/11/i-am-convinced-universalist-william.html)
MORE (http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&num=100&q=kolasis%20remidial%20punishment&btnG=Zoeken&meta=&aq=f&oq=)
Clement was also trying to make Biblical principles more palatable to Greeks. I'm not sure I place alot of faith in what one church father was teaching. Origen was a student of Clements and both had strong foundations and belief systems wrapped around Greek philosophy. That doesn't give me a ton of confidence. And I know, there is alot of debate about age enduring. But, I also know it can go both ways...age enduring and forever. I have seen the same passages, same phrases interpreted both forever and age enduring. Considering the saints live forever...I don't think age enduring fits there.
Quote from: thinktank on August 17, 2010, 08:30:22 PM
Could the "great tribulation" referred to here be the same as the "lake of fire" in Rev. 20? They certainly come out of it "cleansed." They have white robes, which are identified with "the righteousness of saints" in Rev. 19:8.
What else could the purpose of the "lake of fire" be?
Doug
Not the same event, but a good point that if believers are cleansed through pain, why can't unbelivers be cleansed through pain. I guess the big difference is that people during the great tribulation repent of their wickedness, but as the letters of the churches propose they will be beaten with stripes and will have to go through this chastening in order to be worthy. That's why the lord says pray that ye may be worthy to escape these things that are to come upon the earth. Those who are not worthy will be beaten with stripes while others will be beaten with many stripes, until they repent and wash themselves in the blood of the lamb.
But the great white throne judgement takes place after the devil has been chained for a thousand years and if one looks at the condition of the world currenty this is impossible, some say that the devil is already chained, but I think they are a bit deluded.
But overall a good point, that if people repent during the great tribulation in the absolute masses, then maybe people will also repent after they get thrown into the lake of fire. After all there is one consistent theme throughout the entire bible and that is, if people repent then God will have mercy, even during the old testament when the blood of Jesus did not exist.
I think your take on this passage is right on. That is how I read the passage. ED gives me little comfort. I want no one to perish. But, it sure beats ET. I am looking at these passages hoping to believe in UR but am left unconvinced. The lake of fire is a huge problem for UR and I haven't seen one good explanation that can unite UR and these scriptures. With that said, I think it's entirely possible for one to escape the lake of fire. With God anything is possible. But, I don't see additional scriptures supporting that notion. That is a big problem for me.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 17, 2010, 10:12:20 PM
TortureTank,
You often mention pain....
Let's consider these 2 verses:
KJV1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
YLTMat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
kolasis = correction
The actual Greek Phrase is: AIONIOS KOLASIS which literally means, "correction until perfection".
WW1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear is correction until perfection. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
WWMat 25:46 And these shall be corrected until perfected, but the righteous to life age-during.'
Clement insists that punishment in Hades is remedial and restorative (http://www.romancatholicism.org/clement-apokatastasis.htm)
I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment (http://pastorbobcornwall.blogspot.com/2008/11/i-am-convinced-universalist-william.html)
MORE (http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&num=100&q=kolasis%20remidial%20punishment&btnG=Zoeken&meta=&aq=f&oq=)
Cmon be fair I also often mention mercy, so Could be the mercytank, Mr M1 Abrahams :laughing7:
The bible mentions great tribulation so pain is inevitable, and the scriptures say that he that overcomes will not be hurt by the second death. So if God uses the great tribulation to save the stubborn masses through chastening and discipline, who wash their robes and have come out of great tribulation, then he might use the same kind of punishment for those in the lake of fire, to purge their sins of their wickedness. It seems to be that only the most wicked of humanity will end up in the lake of fire, I think that unless they receive ED, then the alternative is ET or TEMP pain according to UR. ET seems out of the question on so many levels, but I am a little concerned, that if the lake of fire isnt ED, then it means the devil will be in the lake of fire forever, which contradicts Gods mercy, but since Jesus died for humanity, how can the devil be restored? but again Angels are different to mankind, so maybe there is no need for a sacrifice and perhaps the devil will remain in the lake of fire until he does the unthinkable and repents to God for his wickedness.
Perhaps we should not be too concerned about the devil, but it might shed some light on the subject if we see that God is able to extend mercy to even the devil, if he repents.
QuoteClement was also trying to make Biblical principles more palatable to Greeks.
And he did that by telling lies? He clearly refuted the Greek thoughts of hell.
Read THIS (http://home.online.nl/spamfree/source/The_prevailing_doctrine.htm) and don't forget to download and read the .pdf
ALL church father were pro UR. It's Augustine who was a heathen until his 30's brought in the ET stuff (and Constantine)
The .pdf will also show you the opinion on aion(ion) according to the church fathers.
QuoteConsidering the saints live forever...I don't think age enduring fits there.
Saints indeed live forever. But that doesn't mean corrected sinners can join them. Note that all the fire and torment stuff happens
before Jesus hands over His kingdom to father.
No Jesus won't rule for ever as often said.
Eternal life and eternal punishment in Matthew 25:46 do not have an equal duration (http://home.online.nl/spamfree/source/Matthew%2025_46.htm)
MANY UR proofs and objection are discussed HERE (http://home.online.nl/spamfree/)
Shawn, go away in age-during reading and I'm sure you will get a better grip on what UR teaches
Quote from: shawn on August 17, 2010, 10:35:04 PMThe lake of fire is a huge problem for UR
Why exactly?
Quoteand I haven't seen one good explanation that can unite UR and these scriptures.
The whole forum and main site is filled with it.
But let's take another approach.
If LoF is truely like ED or ET teaches UR is clearly refuted. Scripture doesn't contradict. There can't be UR on one page and ET on another page.
So why is LoF a huge problem for UR?
Daniel 12:1-4
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the sun; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
I have changed vs. 3 slightly to agree with Matt. 13:43, "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father." Jesus may have quoted from Daniel here.
The point of quoting this, is that Daniel 12:1 also refers to a time of trouble that is unique. It fits the description Jesus gave in Matt. 24:21.
The time Daniel spoke of is also a time of resurrection, and deliverance for those "written in the book." In Revelation 20:15, it is those who are not written in the book of life who are cast into the "lake of fire," which I understand to be a metaphor representing the judgment, the time when the earth becomes full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. [Isaiah 11:9]
When Jesus said, in Luke 21:21, "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains," I think he meant seek the promises of God, not seek to save our own lives. His words should be understood in the light of his words in Luke 17:33:
Luke 17:33
Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Luke 21:21& 17:33 don't contradict each other; in prophecy, the "mountains of Israel" are metaphors, that represent the promises of God to the saints, and covenants, and prophecies. See Galatians 4:24-25, for example, where Sinai represents the covenant made at Sinai. Similarly, other revelations are represented by the places where they were given. Jesus gave his "sermon on the mount" on one of the mountains of Israel, so the mountains Jesus spoke of, that he said we should flee to, may represent his teachings in the sermon on the mount!
Doug
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 17, 2010, 10:54:16 PM
QuoteClement was also trying to make Biblical principles more palatable to Greeks.
And he did that by telling lies? He clearly refuted the Greek thoughts of hell.
Read THIS (http://home.online.nl/spamfree/source/The_prevailing_doctrine.htm) and don't forget to download and read the .pdf
ALL church father were pro UR. It's Augustine who was a heathen until his 30's brought in the ET stuff (and Constantine)
The .pdf will also show you the opinion on aion(ion) according to the church fathers.
QuoteConsidering the saints live forever...I don't think age enduring fits there.
Saints indeed live forever. But that doesn't mean corrected sinners can join them. Note that all the fire and torment stuff happens before Jesus hands over His kingdom to father.
No Jesus won't rule for ever as often said.
Eternal life and eternal punishment in Matthew 25:46 do not have an equal duration (http://home.online.nl/spamfree/source/Matthew%2025_46.htm)
MANY UR proofs and objection are discussed HERE (http://home.online.nl/spamfree/)
Shawn, go away in age-during reading and I'm sure you will get a better grip on what UR teaches
I have been through your discussions on these concepts. But, I also read the ED discussions on these topics. I am not one sided in my instruction. And you are incorrect about all the early church fathers teaching UR. 4 of the 6 original schools taught it. And even in the early days heretical teachings abounded. I'm not sure that Greek philosophy and culture didn't sway the early church fathers thinking on these matters. What I want to know is what Paul taught...what Jesus taught. What some early church fathers who were heavily influenced by greek philosophy and culture thought/taught are of lesser concern to me.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 17, 2010, 11:01:26 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 17, 2010, 10:35:04 PMThe lake of fire is a huge problem for UR
Why exactly?
Quoteand I haven't seen one good explanation that can unite UR and these scriptures.
The whole forum and main site is filled with it.
But let's take another approach.
If LoF is truely like ED or ET teaches UR is clearly refuted. Scripture doesn't contradict. There can't be UR on one page and ET on another page.
So why is LoF a huge problem for UR?
Like I said, I have read it and I am left unconvinced. And btw name calling is not becoming. :2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 17, 2010, 10:54:16 PM
QuoteClement was also trying to make Biblical principles more palatable to Greeks.
And he did that by telling lies? He clearly refuted the Greek thoughts of hell.
Maybe, but he was an admirer of Plato.
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_of_Alexandria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_of_Alexandria)
He developed a Christian Platonism. He presented the goal of Christian life as deification, identified both as Platonism's assimilation into God and the biblical imitation of God.... He praises Plato for setting forth the greatest possible likeness to God as the aim of life; and his portrait of the perfect Gnostic closely resembles that of the wise man as drawn by the Stoics.IMO, he was probably one of those foretold by the apostle Peter, in 2 Peter 2:1-2.
Doug
Quote from: thinktank on August 17, 2010, 10:49:20 PM
Cmon be fair I also often mention mercy, so Could be the mercytank, Mr M1 Abrahams :laughing7:
I'm gonna call you Mercy 1 Tank then.
Or M1T. That even sounds educated and techy :laughing7:
QuoteThe bible mentions great tribulation so pain is inevitable, and the scriptures say that he that overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
Lemme start with saying I'm never meant to say God just ignores sin out of love. There will be "hurt".
But what exactly does that hurt mean?
Eternal torture? Torture for a limited time? Just be dead for a while. A learning experience?
QuoteOrigen in his reply to Celsus (VI, xxv) gives an exposition of Gehenna, explaining its usage in his day. He says it is an analogy of the well-known valley of the Son of Hinnom, and signifies the fire of purification. Now observe: Christ carefully avoided the words in which his auditors expressed endless punishment (aidios, timoria and adialeiptos), and used terms they did not use with that meaning (aionios kolasis), and employed the term which by universal consent among the Jews has no such meaning (Gehenna); and as his immediate followers and the earliest of the Fathers pursued exactly the same course, is it not demonstrated that they intended to be understood as he was understood?7
QuoteIt seems to be that only the most wicked of humanity will end up in the lake of fire, I think that unless they receive ED, then the alternative is ET or TEMP pain according to UR.
I still disagree with the word pain M1T. Neither I'm sure only a few will enter LoF. I think vast number will enter LoF.
Maybe even the saints who are not hurt by itQuoteET seems out of the question on so many levels, but I am a little concerned, that if the lake of fire isnt ED, then it means the devil will be in the lake of fire forever,
That's why the translation reads ages and ages. There isn't a single for ever in the whole Bible.
(Yes God is eternal. And yes life is also everlasting)
Quotewhich contradicts Gods mercy, but since Jesus died for humanity, how can the devil be restored?
Psalm 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works
Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Romans 10:12 or there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Galatians 2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:)....
Ephesians 6:9 .... knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
Colossians 3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, .... without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
It can be argued that the above verses are about man. But do you think God has two sets of standards? One for mankind and one for other parts of creation?
Quotebut again Angels are different to mankind, so maybe there is no need for a sacrifice and perhaps the devil will remain in the lake of fire until he does the unthinkable and repents to God for his wickedness.
Whoever comes to me I shal nowise cast out.....
QuotePerhaps we should not be too concerned about the devil, but it might shed some light on the subject if we see that God is able to extend mercy to even the devil, if he repents.
The devil is in LoF for an age. After that ED or out.
I think your take on this passage is right on. That is how I read the passage. ED gives me little comfort. I want no one to perish. But, it sure beats ET. I am looking at these passages hoping to believe in UR but am left unconvinced. The lake of fire is a huge problem for UR and I haven't seen one good explanation that can unite UR and these scriptures. With that said, I think it's entirely possible for one to escape the lake of fire. With God anything is possible. But, I don't see additional scriptures supporting that notion. That is a big problem for me.
Shawn
I have found one possible explanation, but should this "evil infested religious Ed believer" :Evilgrin: share, with you O righteous ones :laughing7: I'm suprised that no Ur ist has thought of this, tut and I thought you guys had all the truth :laughing7:
But fear not for thinkTank is here :duck:
He has come to save the day
To save the lost which dwells in clayyy
So look out now he's about to prowl
Its mighty T tank, hoorayy
Enough self worship for one day, my quota is up :laughing7:
But back to business. In the book of revelation there in REv 20 or is it rev 21, whosoever is not found in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire and also death and hades were cast in.
So if death is cast in that means an end to death?
But in Rev 21 or Rev 22, we found new Jerusalem and a new Earth and new heavens and there is no more sea. But without the city are dogs, whoremongers etc and these partake of the lake of fire.
So if lake of fire = death or ED, then how does the lake of fire still exist and if God threatens to thrown them into it, then death isn't destroyed because those who end up in it will die.
So maybe there is a chance for willies friend, umm Hitler :laughhand: to be saved afterall. :icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: Doug on August 17, 2010, 11:17:17 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 17, 2010, 10:54:16 PM
QuoteClement was also trying to make Biblical principles more palatable to Greeks.
And he did that by telling lies? He clearly refuted the Greek thoughts of hell.
Maybe, but he was an admirer of Plato.
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_of_Alexandria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_of_Alexandria)
He developed a Christian Platonism. He presented the goal of Christian life as deification, identified both as Platonism's assimilation into God and the biblical imitation of God.... He praises Plato for setting forth the greatest possible likeness to God as the aim of life; and his portrait of the perfect Gnostic closely resembles that of the wise man as drawn by the Stoics.
IMO, he was probably one of those foretold by the apostle Peter, in 2 Peter 2:1-2.
Doug
Page 54-60 (http://home.online.nl/spamfree/PrevailingUniversalism.pdf) I want to suggest you read those pages. Because the quote below doesn't do justice to the chapter on Clement of Alexandria. There are also many footnote. So if you want to verify all claims.
QuoteClement insists that punishment in Hades is remedial and restorative, and that punished souls are
cleansed by fire. The fire is spiritual, purifying13 the soul. "God's punishments are saving and
disciplinary (in Hades) leading to conversion, and choosing rather the repentance than the death of the
sinner, (Ezek. xviii, 23, 32; xxxiii: II, etc.,) and especially since souls, although darkened by passions,
when released from their bodies, are able to perceive more clearly because of their being no longer
obstructed by the paltry flesh." 14
He again defines the important word kolasis our Lord uses in Matt. xxv: 46, and shows how it
differs from the wholly different word timoria used by Josephus and the Greek writers who believed
in irremediable suffering. He says: "He (God) chastises the disobedient, for chastisement (kolasis) is
for the good and advantage of him who is punished, for it is the amendment of one who resists; I will
not grant that he wishes to take vengeance. Vengeance (timoria) is a requital of evil sent for the
interest of the avenger. He (God) would not desire to avenge himself on us who teaches us to pray for
those who despitefully use us (Matt. v: 44). 15 Therefore the good God punishes for these three causes:
First, that he who is punished (paidenomenos) may become better than his former self; then that those
who are capable of being saved by examples may be drawn back, being admonished; and thirdly, that
he who is injured may not readily be despised, and be apt to receive injury. And there are two
methods of correction, the instructive and the punitive, 16 which we have called the disciplinary."
Quote from: Doug on August 17, 2010, 11:17:17 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 17, 2010, 10:54:16 PM
QuoteClement was also trying to make Biblical principles more palatable to Greeks.
And he did that by telling lies? He clearly refuted the Greek thoughts of hell.
Maybe, but he was an admirer of Plato.
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_of_Alexandria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_of_Alexandria)
He developed a Christian Platonism. He presented the goal of Christian life as deification, identified both as Platonism's assimilation into God and the biblical imitation of God.... He praises Plato for setting forth the greatest possible likeness to God as the aim of life; and his portrait of the perfect Gnostic closely resembles that of the wise man as drawn by the Stoics.
IMO, he was probably one of those foretold by the apostle Peter, in 2 Peter 2:1-2.
Doug
Exactly what concerns me about Clements.
Quote from: thinktank on August 17, 2010, 11:30:44 PM
But in Rev 21 or Rev 22, we found new Jerusalem and a new Earth and new heavens and there is no more sea. But without the city are dogs, whoremongers etc and these partake of the lake of fire.
So if lake of fire = death or ED, then how does the lake of fire still exist and if God threatens to thrown them into it, then death isn't destroyed because those who end up in it will die.
Quote from: bobf on February 22, 2009, 05:00:21 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 22, 2009, 10:07:53 AM
Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
To enter the city you have to be outside first. The question is: can you only earn access during this life?
I think that answer is not in Revealtion itself. But is Revelation really the end of the Bible? Or is it just a book about judgement and not about eternity?
Take a look at Isaiah 60:11 and the words leading up to "THEREFORE thy gates shall be open continually" since the preceding verses must explain WHY the gates remain open in the New Jerusalem. The gates remain open to bring spiritual Gentiles into the city to further "adorn" the city.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7841.msg91364#msg91364
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=4961.msg53171#msg53171
There is a good thread on this somewhere....
It shows that the dogs outside Jerusalem all enter the city after a while.... Also about the healing tree.
Who can find that thread?
QuoteBut back to business. In the book of revelation there in REv 20 or is it rev 21, whosoever is not found in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire and also death and hades were cast in.
A thing for you to ThinkTank on while I'm asleep.... Was Saul in the book? Paul?
A thing for you to ThinkTank on while I'm asleep.... Was Saul in the book? Paul?
Whitewings
Saul wasn't in the book for his works were evil, but Paul was/is in the book for he finished the course. I have finished the course, Paul said.
But Saul was a chosen vessel of the lord, similar to how Mary was chosen, they could have rejected their calling but both heeded the call and finished the course, so their names are written in the book of life.
They also as belivers will not go to HADES to await judgment, but will partake of the resurection.
Whether there be hades or not depends on factors such as
Do we have a spirit and is this spirit seperable from the human body or are both needed to experience life.
If we do have a spirit that is seperable, then the righteous belivers go to heaven but the unrepentant go to hades to await judgment. But if a beliver has life, then perhaps the unbeliver has spirit death or some kind of sleep in hades, otherwise an unbeliver will have spent up to 1000 years in darkness if they were born over a thousand years ago.
If Ur is true then Garrys tentmaker view looks likely, that hades exists for the unbeliever.
Quote from: shawn on August 17, 2010, 10:24:35 PM
...
According to Revelations 7 those in the white robes from the Tribulation are the ones who washed their robes white in the blood of the Lamb. Sounds alot like choice to me. I believe the lake of fire and the tribulation are two distinct events.
Let's consider some more the possibility that these are separate events. Then, the question remains, which is
worse, the "lake of fire," or the "great tribulation?"
And another question is, which comes
first? Is it the "great tribulation"? Or the "lake of fire"?
Consider also the warnings about "Gehenna" which were mentioned by Jesus. There are 12 references to Gehenna in the NT.
Gehenna was a valley in the southern part of Jerusalem. It was where the refuse of the city was burnt up.
In the NT, the idea of being cast into Gehenna is associated with being rejected as
unfit for the kingdom of God. Christians are encouraged to pray, and watch, and seek entry to the kingdom at all costs, even if involves the loss of an eye or a limb.
Gehenna represents the judgment; to miss out on the resurrection of the saints implies one has to look forward to the
judgment which the NT depicts in terms of shame, where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth."
But the judgment is not the same for everyone. From those who were given much, much is required. Jesus said the people of Sodom, and Nineveh, will have a more tolerable time in the judgment, than those Jews who saw the miracles and signs he had performed, yet did not believe the gospel.
Christians who miss out on the resurrection, and who are rejects from the kingdom, will likely be in a position similar to those Jews.
The warnings in the NT about the great tribulation, I think, refer to the judgment, and are intended for those called to follow Christ and share in the kingdom. In the time of Jesus, many of the publicans and sinners who heard the gospel preached repented, while many of the religious folk did not. Similarly, many of the Gentiles accepted the gospel, while many of the Jews rejected it. Jesus said, "the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light." [Luke 16:8] And, "While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light." [John 12:36] There was a reason for these statements, as events turned out.
Matthew 8:11-13
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.Gentiles came into the kingdom, as a result of the preaching of the apostles, but Jews missed out. This was not forever, though, as Paul said, in Romans 11:32, "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have
mercy upon all."
The Jews who did not believe, are "concluded in unbelief" so that God can be merciful to them in the judgment. Those who are enlightened by the gospel need to respond in an appropriate way, or risk God's judgment. I think this is what lies behind Christ's warning.
Matthew 18:8-9 (Young's Literal Translation)
'And if thy hand or thy foot doth cause thee to stumble, cut them off and cast from thee; it is good for thee to enter into the life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast to the fire the age-during. And if thine eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee; it is good for thee one-eyed to enter into the life, rather than having two eyes to be cast to the gehenna of the fire.' Gehenna is associated with fire, which suggests that it corresponds to the "lake of fire." It represents the destiny of those who miss out on the kingdom, who were called to be part of it, but were counted
unworthy.
This may be what Paul refers to, when he spoke of those who build on the foundation of the gospel with "wood, hay, and stubble" rather than with gold, and precious stones.
1 Corinthians 3:10-16
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Again, fire is mentioned. Hmm... Is it the "lake of fire"?
Fire is also connected with the
two witnesses, which I think represent the
Word and the
Spirit of God. Those who would hurt them, are to be killed by the fire from their mouth.
Revelation 11:5
And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. I suggest this "fire from their mouth" refers to the "lake of fire," which is the judgment, when the knowledge of God fills the earth. The carnal human nature is what needs to be killed, just as the saints today are taught to "mortify the deeds of the body."
Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.Colossians 3:5
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:The NT depicts the judgment in terms that encourage Christians to avoid it, at all costs! Jesus said, "Flee to the mountains," referring to the wonderful promises of God, and "pray ye that your flight be not in the winter." [Mark 13:18] Winter means one has missed the "harvest" which occurs in the fall; "neither on the sabbath day." The "sabbath day" is the time of God's "rest." The "rest" is the eternal inheritance of the saints.
Hebrews 4:11
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.Doug
This is a bit of a long post, but hopefully worth the read :bigGrin:.
Quote from: Quaesitor on August 17, 2010, 06:17:36 PM
I like Zenders explanation that the Lake of Fire which is the second death is in fact the 2nd death.
The 2nd death is for those deemed unrighteous of living during the last eons.
But it is abolished by Christ when He submit everything to God.
I believe that's the "Concordant" understanding. I find this view very interesting and worth consideration. I.e., that it is literal death, but not final - as there is a glorious ending as revealed in I Corinthians, that culminates with God being ALL in
ALL (not
some or "whatever's left"). Tony Nungesser addresses it at various times, in threads on TM, and here, from his website;
http://www.saviourofall.org/
We teach that God will save all mankind (1 Timothy 2:4-6) and God is in fact the Saviour of all mankind (1 Timothy 4:10,11)....all mankind will be reconciled to God per Colossians 1:20 and will be headed up in Christ (Eph.1:10) and that all mankind will bow IN the name of Jesus (some mistranslations improperly say "at the name . . ."), and will happily acclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God, the Father (Philippians 2:8-11). We teach that God's judgments are a necessity for mankind.
The judgments for criminals who incur the death penalty will afterwards have their bodies cast into Gehenna (often mis-translated "hell" in some Bibles). This understanding comports with these verses:
"And they fare forth and see the corpses of the mortals, the transgressors against Me, for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they become a repulsion to all flesh" (Isa 66:24).
And which Jesus related to in this discourse:
... It is ideal for you to be entering into the kingdom of God one-eyed, rather than, having two eyes, to be cast into the Gehenna of fire, (48) where their worm is not deceasing and the fire is not going out" (Mark 9:43-48).
In Strong's it states this concerning Gehenna in Mark 9:43 prejudicing the student against a proper understanding of Gehenna: G1067
gheh'-en-nah
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell. (Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries)
The above judgment is not "everlasting" nor is it "hell" either literally or figuratively. Gehenna is the garbage dump in the valley just to the south of Jerusalem where, during the 1000 year kingdom the residents thereof will burn the city trash and worms will consume where the fires are not burning.
Those fires will not be quenched during the 1000 years and those worms will not cease during that time as well. It is not for all mankind but has to do with the judging within the kingdom of Israel. This kingdom is going to be set up by Christ for His millennial reign. The judgment for all mankind comes at the cessation of that 1000 year eon where they will stand before the great white throne and then have their bodies cast into the lake of fire which is called the second death. (see Revelation 20:11-15). We do not believe there is any conscious torment for these people since they will be in the death state once again.
But God is not done with humanity. Later, God will save all mankind...Did Christ die for all without exception, and if so is God able to carry out His will to save all He wills to save (1 Tim.2:4)? Or does God not will to save all without exception, so that Christ died only for the elect? Few seem bold enough to speak of God's love, power and wisdom in equally unreserved terms. When the subject is brought up we hear much said about [edit], but that only betrays an unwillingness to face the issue. The gospel tells of God's achievement, and the question is: What did God achieve in the death and resurrection of Christ? - Tony Nungesser and Dean Hough
---------------------------
I remembered something I'd saved,
the order of the salvation of all;
So we have 3 groups, in their own order:
1. Christ the "first-fruit" of the firstfruits
2. Those who are Christs - the firstfruits
3. The end - the rest/termination/limit of the list, last in a series, ie. everyone else. THERE IT IS!
and Cardinal responded;
1. Christ the "first-fruit" of the firstfruits (Holy of Holies)
2. Those who are Christs - the firstfruits (Inner court)
3. The end - the rest/termination/limit of the list,
last in a series, ie. everyone else. (Outer court)
Yes this is the "tabernacle" type isn't it? ie. inner/outer court etc.
Also can be viewed as a harvest "type".
See http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html [<<<A good read :thumbsup:]
1. The Wave Sheaf (Feast of passover) - represents Christ
2. The firstfruits (Feast of weeks) - represents the elect
3. End of year harvest (Feast of tabernacles) - represents the vast majority of unbelievers finally being saved
So should we expect God will reap a small crop in #1 and #2, and then when #3 comes around, God has a GIANT CROP FAILURE? I don't think so!
God's year-end harvest will be the biggest of the bunch, all will praise and rejoice!
----------------
Are there some important keys here, including regarding the Lake of Fire and connection(s) to the consummation actually being seen in I Corinthians, as
continuation of The Revelation?
Quote from: thinktank on August 18, 2010, 01:58:49 AM
Quote from: WWA thing for you to ThinkTank on while I'm asleep.... Was Saul in the book? Paul?
Saul wasn't in the book for his works were evil, but Paul was/is in the book for he finished the course.
Because they where the same person this refutes the idea of some that once blotted out is for ever blotted out of the book.
QuoteBut Saul was a chosen vessel of the lord, similar to how Mary was chosen, they could have rejected their calling but both heeded the call and finished the course, so their names are written in the book of life.
Somehow I doubt they could have rejected.
Saul for example was blind for 3 days. Didn't eat or drink for 3 days. Combined with the light for me it doesn't feel like Jesus made a suggestion. Or do you think Jesus asked Saul something to consider? Yes he completed his mission as you wrote. But did he have a choice to start the mission? Maybe we can compare the light with being cast into LoF and the completion of the task the exit of LoF???
QuoteThey also as belivers will not go to HADES to await judgment, but will partake of the resurection.
Whether there be hades or not depends on factors such as
Do we have a spirit and is this spirit seperable from the human body or are both needed to experience life.
If we do have a spirit that is seperable, then the righteous belivers go to heaven but the unrepentant go to hades to await judgment. But if a beliver has life, then perhaps the unbeliver has spirit death or some kind of sleep in hades, otherwise an unbeliver will have spent up to 1000 years in darkness if they were born over a thousand years ago.
Yeah it would mean Cain is there for 6000 years. That's 6000 years longer that a sinner dying today.
Quote from: shawn on August 17, 2010, 11:13:09 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 17, 2010, 10:54:16 PM
QuoteClement was also trying to make Biblical principles more palatable to Greeks.
And he did that by telling lies? He clearly refuted the Greek thoughts of hell.
Read THIS (http://home.online.nl/spamfree/source/The_prevailing_doctrine.htm) and don't forget to download and read the .pdf
ALL church father were pro UR. It's Augustine who was a heathen until his 30's brought in the ET stuff (and Constantine)
The .pdf will also show you the opinion on aion(ion) according to the church fathers.
QuoteConsidering the saints live forever...I don't think age enduring fits there.
Saints indeed live forever. But that doesn't mean corrected sinners can join them. Note that all the fire and torment stuff happens before Jesus hands over His kingdom to father.
No Jesus won't rule for ever as often said.
Eternal life and eternal punishment in Matthew 25:46 do not have an equal duration (http://home.online.nl/spamfree/source/Matthew%2025_46.htm)
MANY UR proofs and objection are discussed HERE (http://home.online.nl/spamfree/)
Shawn, go away in age-during reading and I'm sure you will get a better grip on what UR teaches
I have been through your discussions on these concepts. But, I also read the ED discussions on these topics. I am not one sided in my instruction. And you are incorrect about all the early church fathers teaching UR. 4 of the 6 original schools taught it. And even in the early days heretical teachings abounded. I'm not sure that Greek philosophy and culture didn't sway the early church fathers thinking on these matters. What I want to know is what Paul taught...what Jesus taught. What some early church fathers who were heavily influenced by greek philosophy and culture thought/taught are of lesser concern to me.
It's a bit less black and white like that. Yes there where lots of different teachings. A lot was written about heretics. Also about heretic leaders in the Christian church. The question is what exactly was so heritical? The answer is many things. They attacked eacother on all kind of things. Just like Calvinists and Arminianists call eachother heretics but both believe in ET. It was similar in the early days. They attacked eachother on all kind views but never on UR itself. They even sat together in councils. And guess what the most well know UR teachers did lead the counsils. As said it's not as black and white. Jesus would surely have rebuked many or their views. But if you read the book I suggested you will have a better overview instead of little bits of info that indeed seem to contradict
Quote from: shawn on August 17, 2010, 11:16:05 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 17, 2010, 11:01:26 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 17, 2010, 10:35:04 PMThe lake of fire is a huge problem for UR
Why exactly?
Quoteand I haven't seen one good explanation that can unite UR and these scriptures.
The whole forum and main site is filled with it.
But let's take another approach.
If LoF is truely like ED or ET teaches UR is clearly refuted. Scripture doesn't contradict. There can't be UR on one page and ET on another page.
So why is LoF a huge problem for UR?
Like I said, I have read it and I am left unconvinced. And btw name calling is not becoming. :2c:
Name calling? Me? Where?
Maybe he means this? "Augustine who was a heathen". :dontknow:
Quote from: jabcat on August 18, 2010, 09:29:55 AM
Maybe he means this? "Augustine who was a heathen". :dontknow:
Aurelius Augustinus was born in Tagaste, Numidia, November 13, 354, and died in 420. He was
the great fountain of error destined to adulterate Christianity, and change its character for long ages.
In disposition and spirit he was wholly unlike the amiable and learned fathers who proclaimed an
earlier and purer faith. He fully developed that change in opinion which was destined to influence
Christianity for many centuries. He himself informs us that he spent his youth in the brothels of
Carthage after a mean, thieving boyhood.1 He cast off the mother of his illegitimate son, Adeodatus,
whom he ought to have married, as his sainted mother, Monica, urged him to do. It is an interesting
indication of the Latin type of piety to know that his mother allowed him to live at home during his
shameless life, but that when he adopted the Manichæan heresy she forbade him her house. And
afterward, when he become "orthodox," though still living immorally, she received him in her home.
His life was destitute of the claims of that paternal relation on which society rests, and which our Lord
makes the fundamental fact of his religion, Fatherhood. He transferred to God the characteristics of
semi-Pagan kings, and his theology was a hybrid born of the Roman Code of Law and Pagan
Mythology.
Augustine brought his theology with him from Manichæism when he became a Christian, only he
added perpetuity to the dualism that Mani made temporal. "The doctrine of endless punishment
assumed in the writings of Augustine a prominence and rigidity which had no parallel in the earlier
history of theology and which savors of the teaching of Mohammed more than of Christ.
Can't find it right now but the pagan father of Augustine said that Augustine far to often decided to worship another pagan god.
So, yes, Augustines was a self proclamed pagan half his life. And because he's the first one to mention ET in 400 years it can be argued he never completly shed of his pagan believes...
In defense of Augustine; he was less ET as many who live today.
Augustine Less Severe Than Modern Orthodoxy.
Augustine, however, held the penalties of sin in a much milder form than do his degenerate theological descendants in modern times. He teaches that the lost still retain goodness,--too valuable to be destroyed, and on that account the worst are not in absolute evil, but only in a lower degree of good. "Grief for lost good in a state of punishment is a witness of a good nature. For he who grieves for the lost peace for his nature, grieves for it by means of some remains of peace, by which it is caused that nature should be friendly to itself." He taught that while unbaptized children must be damned in a Gehenna of fire, their torments would be light ( levissima ) compared with the torment of other sinners, and that their condition would be far preferable to non-existence, and so on the whole a blessing. In a limbus infantum they would only receive a mitissima damnatio.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 18, 2010, 09:01:12 AM
Quote from: shawn on August 17, 2010, 11:16:05 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 17, 2010, 11:01:26 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 17, 2010, 10:35:04 PMThe lake of fire is a huge problem for UR
Why exactly?
Quoteand I haven't seen one good explanation that can unite UR and these scriptures.
The whole forum and main site is filled with it.
But let's take another approach.
If LoF is truely like ED or ET teaches UR is clearly refuted. Scripture doesn't contradict. There can't be UR on one page and ET on another page.
So why is LoF a huge problem for UR?
Like I said, I have read it and I am left unconvinced. And btw name calling is not becoming. :2c:
Name calling? Me? Where?
TortureTank? He is an ED guy so I believe.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 18, 2010, 10:26:00 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 18, 2010, 09:29:55 AM
Maybe he means this? "Augustine who was a heathen". :dontknow:
Aurelius Augustinus was born in Tagaste, Numidia, November 13, 354, and died in 420. He was
the great fountain of error destined to adulterate Christianity, and change its character for long ages.
In disposition and spirit he was wholly unlike the amiable and learned fathers who proclaimed an
earlier and purer faith. He fully developed that change in opinion which was destined to influence
Christianity for many centuries. He himself informs us that he spent his youth in the brothels of
Carthage after a mean, thieving boyhood.1 He cast off the mother of his illegitimate son, Adeodatus,
whom he ought to have married, as his sainted mother, Monica, urged him to do. It is an interesting
indication of the Latin type of piety to know that his mother allowed him to live at home during his
shameless life, but that when he adopted the Manichæan heresy she forbade him her house. And
afterward, when he become "orthodox," though still living immorally, she received him in her home.
His life was destitute of the claims of that paternal relation on which society rests, and which our Lord
makes the fundamental fact of his religion, Fatherhood. He transferred to God the characteristics of
semi-Pagan kings, and his theology was a hybrid born of the Roman Code of Law and Pagan
Mythology.
Augustine brought his theology with him from Manichæism when he became a Christian, only he
added perpetuity to the dualism that Mani made temporal. "The doctrine of endless punishment
assumed in the writings of Augustine a prominence and rigidity which had no parallel in the earlier
history of theology and which savors of the teaching of Mohammed more than of Christ.
Can find it right now but the pagan father of Augustine said that Augustine far to often decided to worship another pagan god.
So, yes, Augustines was a self proclamed pagan half his life. And because he's the first one to mention ET in 400 years it can be argued he never completly shed of his pagan believes...
What is your source for that info?
Quote from: shawn on August 18, 2010, 11:11:29 AMTortureTank? He is an ED guy so I believe.
That's just a little funny 'word battle' between me and TT. I think/hope he agrees. If not I apologize.
Quote from: shawn on August 18, 2010, 11:12:21 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 18, 2010, 10:26:00 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 18, 2010, 09:29:55 AM
Maybe he means this? "Augustine who was a heathen". :dontknow:
Aurelius Augustinus was born in Tagaste, Numidia, November 13, 354, and died in 420. He was
the great fountain of error destined to adulterate Christianity, and change its character for long ages.
In disposition and spirit he was wholly unlike the amiable and learned fathers who proclaimed an
earlier and purer faith. He fully developed that change in opinion which was destined to influence
Christianity for many centuries. He himself informs us that he spent his youth in the brothels of
Carthage after a mean, thieving boyhood.1 He cast off the mother of his illegitimate son, Adeodatus,
whom he ought to have married, as his sainted mother, Monica, urged him to do. It is an interesting
indication of the Latin type of piety to know that his mother allowed him to live at home during his
shameless life, but that when he adopted the Manichæan heresy she forbade him her house. And
afterward, when he become "orthodox," though still living immorally, she received him in her home.
His life was destitute of the claims of that paternal relation on which society rests, and which our Lord
makes the fundamental fact of his religion, Fatherhood. He transferred to God the characteristics of
semi-Pagan kings, and his theology was a hybrid born of the Roman Code of Law and Pagan
Mythology.
Augustine brought his theology with him from Manichæism when he became a Christian, only he
added perpetuity to the dualism that Mani made temporal. "The doctrine of endless punishment
assumed in the writings of Augustine a prominence and rigidity which had no parallel in the earlier
history of theology and which savors of the teaching of Mohammed more than of Christ.
Can find it right now but the pagan father of Augustine said that Augustine far to often decided to worship another pagan god.
So, yes, Augustines was a self proclamed pagan half his life. And because he's the first one to mention ET in 400 years it can be argued he never completly shed of his pagan believes...
What is your source for that info?
This e-book (click here) (http://home.online.nl/spamfree/)
The book has many footnotes with the sources of the passages it quotes. So those who wants can verify them.
The book contain many quotes from the early church fathers and quotes from scholars who did reseach on the church fathers.
I can only speak for myself but I think the time needed to read the book is well invested time. Don't expect verses to be discussed in it or doctrinal discussions.
It just quotes the church fathers. And for me it clearly shows they where strongly UR (not a ET quote found before Augustine)
The fact that the church fathers were right or wrong is a completly other discussion. (and not part of the book)
Below is a table identifying common elements in the prophecies of Daniel 12, Matthew 24, Revelation 7, and Revelation 20, which all appear to describe, in part, some aspects of the end time judgment, when Christ returns.
| Dan. 12 | Matt. 24 | Rev. 7 | Rev. 20 |
Michael, Son of man | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes |
Global scope | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes |
Sorting | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes |
End time | Yes | Yes | | Yes |
Great tribulation | Yes | Yes | Yes | |
Saints delivered | Yes | Yes | | |
Dead raised | Yes | | | Yes |
Book of life | Yes | | | Yes |
Unique | Yes | Yes | | |
A of D revealed | Yes | Yes | | |
Deception | | Yes | | Yes |
Salvation results | | Yes | Yes | |
Garments | | Yes | Yes | |
Doug
I read a few posts about ED, and I wanted to make a point, if I may.
To put it simply, the three possible, and presented doctrines of God's Justice are to reflect the character of God as he has revealed Himself, since it would be He who revealed his plan of Ultimate Justice.
God is Love, Father, Creator, Artist, Sustainer, etc. God is infinite; our whole universe, and scope of finite existence, both as setting, and as persons compared to God, and "the deathless eternity" that is his time frame for us to inherit are illustratively an infinitesimal spec of black, barely noticeable in the vast, infinite canvas of white that stretches onward epochs upon eons away, never ceasing its run and span.
Try to look at a germ on a blade of grass with your naked eye...while standing in the cusp of the expanding universe's wave. That germ is our universe. And in that universe is an even more infinitesimal spec called Earth, with even littler particles barely enough to ponder in comparison to the vast reaches of existence...called Man.
Man lived, at maximum 900 approx years, the majority of man lives less than 100, the average age as of current is 75-80 years. The lifespan of the particle, upon the spec, within the spec...compared to deathless infinity isn't even a blink, it is a pixel insignificant. Man as a species has lived a very short pixel of time in this universe, 10,000 years at a liberal, maximum guess, 6-8000 years conservatively. In many of these years mankind has sinned, and from our perspective it is horrid, but zoomed out to the fullest, it doesn't even make a sound, if you where not God you'd notice nothing of the chaos raised by our fullest history. Every evil deed, every pogrom, every holocaust, every ethnic cleansing, famine, rape, murder, and theft - while grievous, and an assault on a unique creation of God, does not extent outside of the finite borders of the pixel that is Earth's atmosphere, and not for more than a few centuries at most. It quickly dissipates with time, as all finite things do.
In summary: All the horrors of man, compared to God, and deathless time inherited are insignificant, and ridiculously, ludicrously small. Thus Grace abounds.
Now, having a basic idea of God's majesty, and Man's infancy, let us compare the three doctrines concerning Man beneath God's justice in cooperation with God's character, and remember
God is Love,
I AM, is Love, He says so himself.
QuoteLove is patient, love is kind and is not jealous;
love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly;
it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never fails...But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
1 Corinthians 13:4-7,13
ET - God becomes a very easily offendable, touchy, and temperamental God, a torturous monster of a vicious sort of barbarity. God not only is easily offended by the pixel, upon the spec...but reacts towards it with infinite, exponential violence, where mercy ceases to exist.
God ceases to be Love, where mercy is dead - Love doesn't dwell; He becomes a monster, God becomes a liar, a hypocrite, and ceases to be God, his word becomes null and void, worthless, and untrue. Without God; Existence is futile.
ED - God becomes a failure, to eternally destroy, to annihilate what you cannot overcome through being the High Epistle, is childishness, and failure; it is a violent form of giving up.
God ceases to be Love, love endures all things, never fails; He becomes a failure, is dethroned in his sovereignty for the stubbornness, and wickedness of the pixel that is Man has bested Him in all of His omnipotence, God becomes a liar, a hypocrite, and ceases to be God, his word becomes null and void, worthless, and untrue. Without God; Existence is futile.
UR - God is victorious, God remains forever the High Epistle, the God of the Living, sovereign, and beautiful, infinitely graceful, and such an awesome form of love, that even his saints cannot (and indeed many
do not, or
will not) comprehend.
God proves that he is Love, is victorious-infinitely, is glorified in his omnipotence beyond the spheres of measure, for He took an insignificant pixel of black, and made it a purified, and glorified joint heir in Deathless Excellence, God remains true, lives out his words, shows no partiality, no respect in favouritism, and in essence remains That I AM, the truth, the way, the life; God. His word remains applicable, truth, and solid, and not only remains so, but becomes exceedingly applicable, for it is the word of the Infinite Love. God is pleased to be God; Existence is Glorious, and Glorified.