Revelation vs. The Consummation

[jabcat]

This is a bit of a long post, but hopefully worth the read :bigGrin:.

I like Zenders explanation that the Lake of Fire which is the second death is in fact the 2nd death.
The 2nd death is for those deemed unrighteous of living during the last eons.
But it is abolished by Christ when He submit everything to God.

I believe that's the "Concordant" understanding. I find this view very interesting and worth consideration.  I.e., that it is literal death, but not final - as there is a glorious ending as revealed in I Corinthians, that culminates with God being ALL in ALL (not some or "whatever's left").   Tony Nungesser addresses it at various times, in threads on TM, and here, from his website;

http://www.saviourofall.org/

We teach that God will save all mankind (1 Timothy 2:4-6) and God is in fact the Saviour of all mankind (1 Timothy 4:10,11)....all mankind will be reconciled to God per Colossians 1:20 and will be headed up in Christ (Eph.1:10) and that all mankind will bow IN the name of Jesus (some mistranslations improperly say "at the name . . ."), and will happily acclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God, the Father (Philippians 2:8-11). We teach that God's judgments are a necessity for mankind. The judgments for criminals who incur the death penalty will afterwards have their bodies cast into Gehenna (often mis-translated "hell" in some Bibles). This understanding comports with these verses:

    "And they fare forth and see the corpses of the mortals, the transgressors against Me, for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they become a repulsion to all flesh" (Isa 66:24).

And which Jesus related to in this discourse:
   ... It is ideal for you to be entering into the kingdom of God one-eyed, rather than, having two eyes, to be cast into the Gehenna of fire, (48) where their worm is not deceasing and the fire is not going out" (Mark 9:43-48).

    In Strong's it states this concerning Gehenna in Mark 9:43 prejudicing the student against a proper understanding of Gehenna: G1067

gheh'-en-nah
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.  (Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries)

    The above judgment is not "everlasting" nor is it "hell" either literally or figuratively. Gehenna is the garbage dump in the valley just to the south of Jerusalem where, during the 1000 year kingdom the residents thereof will burn the city trash and worms will consume where the fires are not burning. Those fires will not be quenched during the 1000 years and those worms will not cease during that time as well. It is not for all mankind but has to do with the judging within the kingdom of Israel. This kingdom is going to be set up by Christ for His millennial reign. The judgment for all mankind comes at the cessation of that 1000 year eon where they will stand before the great white throne and then have their bodies cast into the lake of fire which is called the second death. (see Revelation 20:11-15). We do not believe there is any conscious torment for these people since they will be in the death state once again.

But God is not done with humanity. Later, God will save all mankind.

..Did Christ die for all without exception, and if so is God able to carry out His will to save all He wills to save (1 Tim.2:4)?  Or does God not will to save all without exception, so that Christ died only for the elect?  Few seem bold enough to speak of God's love, power and wisdom in equally unreserved terms. When the subject is brought up we hear much said about [edit], but that only betrays an unwillingness to face the issue.  The gospel tells of God's achievement, and the question is:  What did God achieve in the death and resurrection of Christ? - Tony Nungesser and Dean Hough
---------------------------

I remembered something I'd saved, the order of the salvation of all;

So we have 3 groups, in their own order:
1. Christ the "first-fruit" of the firstfruits
2. Those who are Christs - the firstfruits
3. The end - the rest/termination/limit of the list, last in a series, ie. everyone else.  THERE IT IS!

and Cardinal responded;

1. Christ the "first-fruit" of the firstfruits (Holy of Holies)

2. Those who are Christs - the firstfruits (Inner court)

3. The end - the rest/termination/limit of the list,
   last in a series, ie. everyone else. (Outer court)  

Yes this is the "tabernacle" type isn't it? ie. inner/outer court etc.

Also can be viewed as a harvest "type".  
See http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html  [<<<A good read  :thumbsup:]

1.  The Wave Sheaf (Feast of passover) - represents Christ
2.  The firstfruits (Feast of weeks) - represents the elect
3.  End of year harvest (Feast of tabernacles) - represents the vast majority of unbelievers finally being saved

So should we expect God will reap a small crop in #1 and #2, and then when #3 comes around, God has a GIANT CROP FAILURE?  I don't think so!  

God's year-end harvest will be the biggest of the bunch, all will praise and rejoice!
----------------

Are there some important keys here, including regarding the Lake of Fire and connection(s) to the consummation actually being seen in I Corinthians, as continuation of The Revelation?  

[WhiteWings]

A thing for you to ThinkTank on while I'm asleep.... Was Saul in the book? Paul?

Saul wasn't in the book for his works were evil, but Paul was/is in the book for he finished the course.

Because they where the same person this refutes the idea of some that once blotted out is for ever blotted out of the book.

But Saul was a chosen vessel of the lord, similar to how Mary was chosen, they could have rejected their calling but both heeded the call and finished the course, so their names are written in the book of life.

Somehow I doubt they could have rejected.
Saul for example was blind for 3 days. Didn't eat or drink for 3 days. Combined with the light for me it doesn't feel like Jesus made a suggestion. Or do you think Jesus asked Saul something to consider? Yes he completed his mission as you wrote. But did he have a choice to start the mission? Maybe we can compare the light with being cast into LoF and the completion of the task the exit of LoF???

They also as belivers will not go to HADES to await judgment, but will partake of the resurection.

Whether there be hades or not depends on factors such as

Do we have a spirit and is this spirit seperable from the human body or are both needed to experience life.
If we do have a spirit that is seperable, then the righteous belivers go to heaven but the unrepentant go to hades to await judgment. But if a beliver has life, then perhaps the unbeliver has spirit death or some kind of sleep in hades, otherwise an unbeliver will have spent up to 1000 years in darkness if they were born over a thousand years ago.

Yeah it would mean Cain is there for 6000 years. That's 6000 years longer that a sinner dying today.

[WhiteWings]

Clement was also trying to make Biblical principles more palatable to Greeks.

And he did that by telling lies? He clearly refuted the Greek thoughts of hell.

Read THIS and don't forget to download and read the .pdf
ALL church father were pro UR. It's Augustine who was a heathen until his 30's brought in the ET stuff (and Constantine)
The .pdf will also show you the opinion on aion(ion) according to the church fathers.

Considering the saints live forever...I don't think age enduring fits there.

Saints indeed live forever. But that doesn't mean corrected sinners can join them. Note that all the fire and torment stuff happens before Jesus hands over His kingdom to father.
No Jesus won't rule for ever as often said.

Eternal life and eternal punishment in Matthew 25:46 do not have an equal duration

MANY UR proofs and objection are discussed HERE
Shawn, go away in age-during reading and I'm sure you will get a better grip on what UR teaches

I have been through your discussions on these concepts.  But, I also read the ED discussions on these topics.  I am not one sided in my instruction.  And you are incorrect about all the early church fathers teaching UR.  4 of the 6 original schools taught it.  And even in the early days heretical teachings abounded.  I'm not sure that Greek philosophy and culture didn't sway the early church fathers thinking on these matters.  What I want to know is what Paul taught...what Jesus taught.  What some early church fathers who were heavily influenced by greek philosophy and culture thought/taught are of lesser concern to me.

It's a bit less black and white like that. Yes there where lots of different teachings. A lot was written about heretics. Also about heretic leaders in the Christian church. The question is what exactly was so heritical? The answer is many things. They attacked eacother on all kind of things. Just like Calvinists and Arminianists call eachother heretics but both believe in ET. It was similar in the early days. They attacked eachother on all kind views but never on UR itself. They even sat together in councils. And guess what the most well know UR teachers did lead the counsils. As said it's not as black and white. Jesus would surely have rebuked many or their views. But if you read the book I suggested you will have a better overview instead of little bits of info that indeed seem to contradict

[WhiteWings]

The lake of fire is a huge problem for UR

Why exactly?

and I haven't seen one good explanation that can unite UR and these scriptures.

The whole forum and main site is filled with it.
But let's take another approach.
If LoF is truely like ED or ET teaches UR is clearly refuted. Scripture doesn't contradict. There can't be UR on one page and ET on another page.
So why is LoF a huge problem for UR?

Like I said, I have read it and I am left unconvinced.  And btw name calling is not becoming.   :2c:

Name calling? Me? Where?

[jabcat]

Maybe he means this?  "Augustine who was a heathen".   :dontknow:

[WhiteWings]

Maybe he means this?  "Augustine who was a heathen".   :dontknow:

Aurelius Augustinus was born in Tagaste, Numidia, November 13, 354, and died in 420. He was
the great fountain of error destined to adulterate Christianity, and change its character for long ages.
In disposition and spirit he was wholly unlike the amiable and learned fathers who proclaimed an
earlier and purer faith. He fully developed that change in opinion which was destined to influence
Christianity for many centuries. He himself informs us that he spent his youth in the brothels of
Carthage after a mean, thieving boyhood.1 He cast off the mother of his illegitimate son, Adeodatus,
whom he ought to have married, as his sainted mother, Monica, urged him to do. It is an interesting
indication of the Latin type of piety to know that his mother allowed him to live at home during his
shameless life, but that when he adopted the Manichæan heresy she forbade him her house. And
afterward, when he become "orthodox," though still living immorally, she received him in her home.
His life was destitute of the claims of that paternal relation on which society rests, and which our Lord
makes the fundamental fact of his religion, Fatherhood. He transferred to God the characteristics of
semi-Pagan kings, and his theology was a hybrid born of the Roman Code of Law and Pagan
Mythology.

Augustine brought his theology with him from Manichæism when he became a Christian, only he
added perpetuity to the dualism that Mani made temporal. "The doctrine of endless punishment
assumed in the writings of Augustine a prominence and rigidity which had no parallel in the earlier
history of theology and which savors of the teaching of Mohammed more than of Christ.

Can't find it right now but the pagan father of Augustine said that Augustine far to often decided to worship another pagan god.
So, yes, Augustines was a self proclamed pagan half his life. And because he's the first one to mention ET in 400 years it can be argued he never completly shed of his pagan believes...

[WhiteWings]

In defense of Augustine; he was less ET as many who live today.

Augustine Less Severe Than Modern Orthodoxy.

Augustine, however, held the penalties of sin in a much milder form than do his degenerate theological descendants in modern times. He teaches that the lost still retain goodness,--too valuable to be destroyed, and on that account the worst are not in absolute evil, but only in a lower degree of good. "Grief for lost good in a state of punishment is a witness of a good nature. For he who grieves for the lost peace for his nature, grieves for it by means of some remains of peace, by which it is caused that nature should be friendly to itself." He taught that while unbaptized children must be damned in a Gehenna of fire, their torments would be light ( levissima ) compared with the torment of other sinners, and that their condition would be far preferable to non-existence, and so on the whole a blessing. In a limbus infantum they would only receive a mitissima damnatio.

[shawn]

The lake of fire is a huge problem for UR

Why exactly?

and I haven't seen one good explanation that can unite UR and these scriptures.

The whole forum and main site is filled with it.
But let's take another approach.
If LoF is truely like ED or ET teaches UR is clearly refuted. Scripture doesn't contradict. There can't be UR on one page and ET on another page.
So why is LoF a huge problem for UR?

Like I said, I have read it and I am left unconvinced.  And btw name calling is not becoming.   :2c:

Name calling? Me? Where?

TortureTank?  He is an ED guy so I believe. 

[shawn]

Maybe he means this?  "Augustine who was a heathen".   :dontknow:

Aurelius Augustinus was born in Tagaste, Numidia, November 13, 354, and died in 420. He was
the great fountain of error destined to adulterate Christianity, and change its character for long ages.
In disposition and spirit he was wholly unlike the amiable and learned fathers who proclaimed an
earlier and purer faith. He fully developed that change in opinion which was destined to influence
Christianity for many centuries. He himself informs us that he spent his youth in the brothels of
Carthage after a mean, thieving boyhood.1 He cast off the mother of his illegitimate son, Adeodatus,
whom he ought to have married, as his sainted mother, Monica, urged him to do. It is an interesting
indication of the Latin type of piety to know that his mother allowed him to live at home during his
shameless life, but that when he adopted the Manichæan heresy she forbade him her house. And
afterward, when he become "orthodox," though still living immorally, she received him in her home.
His life was destitute of the claims of that paternal relation on which society rests, and which our Lord
makes the fundamental fact of his religion, Fatherhood. He transferred to God the characteristics of
semi-Pagan kings, and his theology was a hybrid born of the Roman Code of Law and Pagan
Mythology.

Augustine brought his theology with him from Manichæism when he became a Christian, only he
added perpetuity to the dualism that Mani made temporal. "The doctrine of endless punishment
assumed in the writings of Augustine a prominence and rigidity which had no parallel in the earlier
history of theology and which savors of the teaching of Mohammed more than of Christ.

Can find it right now but the pagan father of Augustine said that Augustine far to often decided to worship another pagan god.
So, yes, Augustines was a self proclamed pagan half his life. And because he's the first one to mention ET in 400 years it can be argued he never completly shed of his pagan believes...

What is your source for that info?

[WhiteWings]

TortureTank?  He is an ED guy so I believe.

That's just a little funny 'word battle' between me and TT. I think/hope he agrees. If not I apologize.

[WhiteWings]

Maybe he means this?  "Augustine who was a heathen".   :dontknow:

Aurelius Augustinus was born in Tagaste, Numidia, November 13, 354, and died in 420. He was
the great fountain of error destined to adulterate Christianity, and change its character for long ages.
In disposition and spirit he was wholly unlike the amiable and learned fathers who proclaimed an
earlier and purer faith. He fully developed that change in opinion which was destined to influence
Christianity for many centuries. He himself informs us that he spent his youth in the brothels of
Carthage after a mean, thieving boyhood.1 He cast off the mother of his illegitimate son, Adeodatus,
whom he ought to have married, as his sainted mother, Monica, urged him to do. It is an interesting
indication of the Latin type of piety to know that his mother allowed him to live at home during his
shameless life, but that when he adopted the Manichæan heresy she forbade him her house. And
afterward, when he become "orthodox," though still living immorally, she received him in her home.
His life was destitute of the claims of that paternal relation on which society rests, and which our Lord
makes the fundamental fact of his religion, Fatherhood. He transferred to God the characteristics of
semi-Pagan kings, and his theology was a hybrid born of the Roman Code of Law and Pagan
Mythology.

Augustine brought his theology with him from Manichæism when he became a Christian, only he
added perpetuity to the dualism that Mani made temporal. "The doctrine of endless punishment
assumed in the writings of Augustine a prominence and rigidity which had no parallel in the earlier
history of theology and which savors of the teaching of Mohammed more than of Christ.

Can find it right now but the pagan father of Augustine said that Augustine far to often decided to worship another pagan god.
So, yes, Augustines was a self proclamed pagan half his life. And because he's the first one to mention ET in 400 years it can be argued he never completly shed of his pagan believes...

What is your source for that info?

This e-book (click here)
The book has many footnotes with the sources of the passages it quotes. So those who wants can verify them.
The book contain many quotes from the early church fathers and quotes from scholars who did reseach on the church fathers.
I can only speak for myself but I think the time needed to read the book is well invested time. Don't expect verses to be discussed in it or doctrinal discussions.
It just quotes the church fathers. And for me it clearly shows they where strongly UR (not a ET quote found before Augustine)
The fact that the church fathers were right or wrong is a completly other discussion. (and not part of the book)

[Doug]

Below is a table identifying common elements in the prophecies of Daniel 12, Matthew 24, Revelation 7, and Revelation 20, which all appear to describe, in part, some aspects of the end time judgment, when Christ returns.

	Dan. 12	Matt. 24	Rev. 7	Rev. 20
Michael, Son of man	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes
Global scope	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes
Sorting	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes
End time	Yes	Yes		Yes
Great tribulation	Yes	Yes	Yes
Saints delivered	Yes	Yes
Dead raised	Yes			Yes
Book of life	Yes			Yes
Unique	Yes	Yes
A of D revealed	Yes	Yes
Deception		Yes		Yes
Salvation results		Yes	Yes
Garments		Yes	Yes

Doug

[Lefein]

I read a few posts about ED, and I wanted to make a point, if I may.

To put it simply, the three possible, and presented doctrines of God's Justice are to reflect the character of God as he has revealed Himself, since it would be He who revealed his plan of Ultimate Justice.  

God is Love, Father, Creator, Artist, Sustainer, etc.  God is infinite; our whole universe, and scope of finite existence, both as setting, and as persons compared to God, and "the deathless eternity" that is his time frame for us to inherit are illustratively an infinitesimal spec of black, barely noticeable in the vast, infinite canvas of white that stretches onward epochs upon eons away, never ceasing its run and span.

Try to look at a germ on a blade of grass with your naked eye...while standing in the cusp of the expanding universe's wave.  That germ is our universe.  And in that universe is an even more infinitesimal spec called Earth, with even littler particles barely enough to ponder in comparison to the vast reaches of existence...called Man.

Man lived, at maximum 900 approx years, the majority of man lives less than 100, the average age as of current is 75-80 years. The lifespan of the particle, upon the spec, within the spec...compared to deathless infinity isn't even a blink, it is a pixel insignificant. Man as a species has lived a very short pixel of time in this universe, 10,000 years at a liberal, maximum guess, 6-8000 years conservatively.  In many of these years mankind has sinned, and from our perspective it is horrid, but zoomed out to the fullest, it doesn't even make a sound, if you where not God you'd notice nothing of the chaos raised by our fullest history. Every evil deed, every pogrom, every holocaust, every ethnic cleansing, famine, rape, murder, and theft - while grievous, and an assault on a unique creation of God, does not extent outside of the finite borders of the pixel that is Earth's atmosphere, and not for more than a few centuries at most.  It quickly dissipates with time, as all finite things do.  

In summary: All the horrors of man, compared to God, and deathless time inherited are insignificant, and ridiculously, ludicrously small.  Thus Grace abounds.

Now, having a basic idea of God's majesty, and Man's infancy, let us compare the three doctrines concerning Man beneath God's justice in cooperation with God's character, and remember God is Love, I AM, is Love, He says so himself.

Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous;

love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly;

it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,

does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;

bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Love never fails...But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

1 Corinthians 13:4-7,13

ET - God becomes a very easily offendable, touchy, and temperamental God, a torturous monster of a vicious sort of barbarity.  God not only is easily offended by the pixel, upon the spec...but reacts towards it with infinite, exponential violence, where mercy ceases to exist.  

God ceases to be Love, where mercy is dead - Love doesn't dwell; He becomes a monster, God becomes a liar, a hypocrite, and ceases to be God, his word becomes null and void, worthless, and untrue.  Without God; Existence is futile.

ED - God becomes a failure, to eternally destroy, to annihilate what you cannot overcome through being the High Epistle, is childishness, and failure; it is a violent form of giving up.

God ceases to be Love, love endures all things, never fails; He becomes a failure, is dethroned in his sovereignty for the stubbornness, and wickedness of the pixel that is Man has bested Him in all of His omnipotence, God becomes a liar, a hypocrite, and ceases to be God, his word becomes null and void, worthless, and untrue.  Without God; Existence is futile.

UR - God is victorious, God remains forever the High Epistle, the God of the Living, sovereign, and beautiful, infinitely graceful, and such an awesome form of love, that even his saints cannot (and indeed many do not, or will not) comprehend.

God proves that he is Love, is victorious-infinitely, is glorified in his omnipotence beyond the spheres of measure, for He took an insignificant pixel of black, and made it a purified, and glorified joint heir in Deathless Excellence, God remains true, lives out his words, shows no partiality, no respect in favouritism, and in essence remains That I AM, the truth, the way, the life; God.  His word remains applicable, truth, and solid, and not only remains so, but becomes exceedingly applicable, for it is the word of the Infinite Love.  God is pleased to be God; Existence is Glorious, and Glorified.