I wasn't sure to post this dream I had of the rapture about a week ago, but the lord gave me a sign that he wanted me to prophesy, but I did not take the sign seriously. But after cardinal posting there is no rapture I am compelled to post this dream.
The dream
I was changed into a spirit ghostly type being and began to elevate quickly towards the sky and saw other people elevating and being happy, but I noticed I was not ready to leave the Earth. As I thought these thoughts I began to slow down and felt heavier, but eventually I made it to heaven. But this heaven was veiled by me, so heaven was not as good as I expected, but Jesus was there giving a speech to a group of people. I could not make out what he was saying. But then I talked to another person and said I have to go back to the earth, "I have unfinished business".
So I think the Lord is saying to me that the saints or x number of saints will return to earth in their supernatural bodies, just like Jesus did after his resurrection.
wow! Great dream.
"Now learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branches bud and its leaves begin to sprout, you know that summer is near.
In the same way, when you see all these things taking place, you can know that his return is very near, right at the door.
I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene before all these things take place.
--Mark 13
I've been thinking about this passage recently. A lot of people feel it refers to the founding of Israel in 1948.
But, I was thinking recently maybe it is referring to the rising numbers of Messianic Jews we are seeing now, because that fits in with the tender shoots budding in the Spring [the fig tree is Israel].--Especially since he says, you won't see me again until you say blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD.
Either way, we are this generation.
:cloud9:
That's interesting. Without Jesus how can Israel blossom. So maybe Israel was planted in 1948, but it has taken a while for the tree to blossom and eventually grow leaves and fruit, worthy for the master.
I have always found it puzzling concerning the birth of Israel as to whether it was by Gods hand or mans hand, since scriptures point to the restoration of Jerusalem/Israel, coupled with the Lord, but todays Israel is mostly secular and practice Judaism and Islam. But what you said could bring greater understanding that a tree takes while to grow and produce fruit and there are signs the size of a mans hand, that Israel are accepting Jesus of Bethlehem as the messiah.
I agree.. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on November 18, 2011, 09:29:47 PM
wow! Great dream.
"Now learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branches bud and its leaves begin to sprout, you know that summer is near.
In the same way, when you see all these things taking place, you can know that his return is very near, right at the door.
I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene before all these things take place.
--Mark 13
I've been thinking about this passage recently. A lot of people feel it refers to the founding of Israel in 1948.
But, I was thinking recently maybe it is referring to the rising numbers of Messianic Jews we are seeing now, because that fits in with the tender shoots budding in the Spring [the fig tree is Israel].--Especially since he says, you won't see me again until you say blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD.
Either way, we are this generation.
Really? How in the world can you take "this generation" completely out of it's context and place it 2000 years after the fact? If it were to be 2000 years later, then please explain why Jesus didn't state that? Daniel was given the SAME DREAM as John's Revelation of Jesus and yet Daniel was told to SEAL IT UP and John was told to LEAVE IT OPEN . . .why? Because it wasn't for Daniel's day, but it WAS for John's day. If God would tell Daniel that it wasn't for his day, then IF it wasn't meant for the generation Jesus was in, then why did he instead say that it was?
The leader of the . . .no disrespect to TT for his dream, but there are reason's why we are told not to lean on our own understanding. And as many people out there who've had dreams want to believe they're from God, they're just not. The leader of the Mormons had a dream and look where that ended up. If there is ever a time for a caution, I would say this would be one. Dreams come from the subconscious. The subconscious feeds from consciousness, aware and unaware. A belief in something can create a dream about something. And because there's a dream doesn't really make it truth.
Where does this dream then fit in with UR? If we're reconciled through the cross, you're saying that apparently the affects of the cross haven't reached you yet? That you're not "ready"? If God is light, where was he in the dream?
As far as waiting for Israel. . . .think about what we're saying here. We are actually saying that the lower realm has priority over the spiritual realm. What about the other passages that say "we" are all Israel spiritually. We are all circumcised not by hands of men . . .the thing that set Israel apart was the circumcision. That's what sets us apart from earthiness. It's power has been cut away from where the seed of life is released through us. God isn't "waiting" for flesh to line up with his spiritual alignment. He already knows it's outcome because he proclaimed it. he's not waiting for the inhabitants on the earth to become righteous, he's already proclaimed that.
When you transform the inside, you will see the outside manifest the change. When you see the completion in the spirit, you will see the completion in the flesh follow. It's kinda like the hell thing as well as the rapture and everything else that distracts us. A message is trumpeted with a question . . ."Why seek ye the living among the dead?" And 40 days later "Why do you continue to stare up into the clouds???" The kingdom doesn't come by observation. The signs of the times Jesus was sharing with them was not about something 2000 years later. It was about the atrocities that were to befall on them THEN.
Sorry if this sounds forceful. I shouldn't present it that way. These things are merely things I believe God not only is showing me, but others who are willing to release their grip on the ever-changing natural state around them. It's just that . . .well . . .I've already said too much.
TT
the dream is about your spiritual struggle...you are rising spiritually to the heavenly mind...but not fully commited to leave 'earthly' things behind.
that in turn 'drags you down' spiritually...and when you do 'get where you are going' you find it somewhat disappointed..veiled to you..
.and you desire to return to earthly things..[maybe because you are more comfortable with the known]
.
will pray for you in your struggle,brother :HeartThrob:
This is what I especially liked Molly; "Without Jesus how can Israel blossom. So maybe Israel was planted in 1948, but it has taken a while for the tree to blossom and eventually grow leaves and fruit, worthy for the master."
Whether talking about a "rapture" or some other way of Jesus ushering in the next age, rather than solely the events of 1948, the current blossoming of the tender shoots could IMO, still be a sign of what's occurring. (For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. Habakkuk 2:14)
TT, is it possible your dream could still have spiritual ramifications but it not be about a "rapture", at least in the "Tim LaHaye/Left Behind" sense?
The Israel that is 'now' needs to be born again from above.
there was a great earthquake...the city was divided into 3 parts[Islam,Judaism,Christian] the earth helped the woman and opened it's mouth to receive
the waters the dragon spewed to try and wash the woman away
Quote from: sheila on November 19, 2011, 12:14:21 AM
The Israel that is 'now' needs to be born again from above.
Amen. :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on November 19, 2011, 12:06:27 AM
This is what I especially liked Molly; "Without Jesus how can Israel blossom. So maybe Israel was planted in 1948, but it has taken a while for the tree to blossom and eventually grow leaves and fruit, worthy for the master."
Whether talking about a "rapture" or some other way of Jesus ushering in the next age, rather than solely the events of 1948, the current blossoming of the tender shoots could IMO, still be a sign of what's occurring. (For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. Habakkuk 2:14)
TT, is it possible your dream could still have spiritual ramifications but it not be about a "rapture", at least in the "Tim LaHaye/Left Behind" sense?
I don't think the dream is saying that the rapture is at the door i.e next year or something. Maybe just that in terms of thousands of years, the lords return is very close.
I'm not sure the exact method God will use. I don't think many here are keen on the rapture idea, but somehow God will bring his purposes to fruitition. One of those purposes is to bring the kingdom of God to the Earth as it is in heaven. According to Daniel the kingdom of God will overcome the kingdoms of the beast and destroy them. Now this earthly heavenly unseen kingdom has operated for thousands of years, but the kingdom of darkness is at large and is dangerous. So I think in times God is bringing supernatural acceleration of his kingdom on Earth. Not sure how this will be brought about, the scriptures say the creation groaneth for the manifestations of the sons of God. I think Israel has a large part to play in bringing the kingdom of God upon the earth, where king David will rule from Jerusalem. Another example of this kingdom accelaration is the doctrine of UR, which has been hidden for thousands of years. Maybe the rapture will bring the saints supernatural bodies so that the kingdom of God can be preached in all the earth. The book of revelation shows an angel carrying the gospel message to the nations.
Nathan said that we are Israel spiritually. That is true and one reason why the Israel in the current land could be a deception, paving way for the true Israel to be gathered from all corners of the world, to worship in Jerusalem. But this natural Israel could in fact blossom to be true Israel also as, Paul said that all Israel shall be saved and that the gentiles because of Christ would lead them to jealousy. Now currently I do not believe that the gentile church has leaded the Israelites to jealousy. So there is a lot of work left for the body of christ and some exciting times ahead.
:2c:
Well said, thanks. :bigGrin:
Quote from: NathanReally? How in the world can you take "this generation" completely out of it's context and place it 2000 years after the fact? If it were to be 2000 years later, then please explain why Jesus didn't state that?
I don't think I took it out of context as far as the Mark 13 quote is concerned. I think 'this generation' refers to the generation that sees the fig tree start to send out tender shoots, blossoms, and leaves---then you will know that summer is right around the corner.
So to know who 'this generation' is in this passage, you have to first decide what he means by the fig tree metaphor.
Natural Israel is today only one tribe really [Judah], maybe some representatives of other tribes thrown in, but 10 of the 12 tribes were mostly lost to history. We don't see the 12 tribes mentioned at all in the NT until the book of revelation and there they are, with Dan gone and Joseph receiving a double portion. So....
Paul tells us that Israel [meaning the Jews] won't be brought in until the fulness of the gentiles. But what is the fulness of the gentiles?
Genesis 48:19
And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become
a multitude of nations.Here, Jacob tells Joseph that Ephraim shall become a
"multitude"H4393
מלו מלוא מלא
melô' melô' melô
mel-o', mel-o', mel-o'
From H4390;
fulness (literally or figuratively): - X all along, X all that is (there-) in, fill, (X that whereof . . . was) full, fulness, [hand-] full, multitude.
[of]
"nations"H1471
גּי גּוי
gôy gôy
go'ee, go'-ee
Apparently from the same root as H1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence a
Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts: - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.
Do you have to be a literalist to have your socks blown off by this one? Paul's 'fulness of the Gentiles' is Jacob's 'multitude of nations'---the children of the lost tribe of Joseph!--traced through, you guessed it!--the younger son, Ephraim!
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
--Rom 11
Quote from: thinktank on November 19, 2011, 01:03:13 AM
I don't think many here are keen on the rapture idea, but somehow God will bring his purposes to fruitition.
Where exactly in the Bible rapture is thaught? The only rapture thing I see is Jesus joining His bride on earth instead of His bride joining Him in heaven....
:2c:
Quote from: Molly on November 18, 2011, 09:29:47 PM
wow! Great dream.
"Now learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branches bud and its leaves begin to sprout, you know that summer is near.
In the same way, when you see all these things taking place, you can know that his return is very near, right at the door.
I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene before all these things take place.
--Mark 13
I've been thinking about this passage recently. A lot of people feel it refers to the founding of Israel in 1948.
But, I was thinking recently maybe it is referring to the rising numbers of Messianic Jews we are seeing now, because that fits in with the tender shoots budding in the Spring [the fig tree is Israel].--Especially since he says, you won't see me again until you say blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD.
Either way, we are this generation.
The fig tree is the tree that withers away.
If I had to pick a tree it would be the olive tree.
The standard Menorah has 7 almond branches.
The Hanukkah Menorah has 7 almond branches + 2 extra olive branches.
For what it's worth according to my calculations Jesus was concieved during the Festival of lights.
AFAIK the 7 armed Menorah burned prime quality olive oil. Symbolic for HS.
But the 9 arm Menorah even has "HS-branches" gradted in.
:2c:
Today the Jews are the 7 armed Menorah?
The Christians the 2 olive branches?
The Messanic Jews the 9 armed Menorah?
Dunno, but I think the Christians have cut off far to much of their Jewish roots.
:2c:
Quote from: thinktank on November 18, 2011, 10:17:48 PM
:cloud9:
That's interesting. Without Jesus how can Israel blossom. So maybe Israel was planted in 1948, but it has taken a while for the tree to blossom and eventually grow leaves and fruit, worthy for the master.
A bit more time has passed by now :laughing7: but tree must be at least 3 years old to be harvested from.
Quote from: wwThe fig tree is the tree that withers away.
Fig tree produces fruit twice a year, in Spring and Fall. :mshock:
OMG this is so exciting. Read both pages.
http://focusonjerusalem.com/israelandthefigtree.html
Quote from: wwIf I had to pick a tree it would be the olive tree.
QuoteDunno, but I think the Christians have cut off far to much of their Jewish roots
The olive tree is the tree of Universal Reconciliation.
In the OT, the olive tree is the twelve tribes of Israel.
We see in Romans 11, Paul talks about two olive trees, a cultivated or natural olive tree [kallielaios] and a wild olive tree [agreilaios].
Paul says you goyim, gentiles, nations, are the wild olive tree, and God is grafting you onto the cultivated olive tree. But don't boast against the natural branches [some of which are being cut off] because God can graft branches in and take branches out.
But, eventually, Paul says, the whole tree ['all Israel'] will be saved.
God started with the gentiles [abraham][wild olive tree], set apart a group to himself [twelve tribes of Israel][cultivated olive tree], cultivated that group [OT], then broke branches off that cultivated tree [NT] and grafted in branches from the wild olive tree [gentiles]. Eventually, God will graft back in all the branches that were broken off. So all will be saved [cultivated].
There's only one tree [olive] representing Jew and Gentile , even though there are cultivated and wild varieties of that tree.
32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen
--Rom 11
:cloud9: @ TT.....here is what the Lord gave me one day while I was studying the Word. The book opened to Matt. 13 and He literally opened my understanding as I read. I was slain in the Spirit on my bed when He finished quickening these scriptures to me. The funny thing was, I called my friend a half hour later, shaking, and told her to get her Bible. She did, I read it to her with the understanding He had given me, and SHE was slain on HER bed, LOL.......He does have a sense of humor. :icon_jokercolor: Anyway......
Matt 13: 36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Notice that the multitude (who only follow Him for their natural needs/understanding to be met, ie. fish and bread) are sent away by HIM. Ever try to share spiritual truths with people who are not where you are? Sometimes the LORD sends them away.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Now if the good seed is Him, where or what then, is the "field" of the "world" He's been sown in? Aren't we His temple, flesh being the dust of the earth?
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Christ in us must increase (grow) like a child must grow in the natural. But there are children of both kinds planted in this dust/field of the world.
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Now knowing this, notice what the end of this "world" really is. The angels (MESSAGES or messengers with a message) reap or raise up from the earthen field, BOTH children, but one is cast into the fire to be consumed, our God is a consuming fire.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Our "world", "ends" when the things of flesh that are holding us down and keeping us from walking in heavenly places (paths of spiritual understanding) have been consumed by the fire of God. This is the reason for the tongues of fire that come upon our heads.
The soul is the candle of the Lord, and that candle must be lit to give off light. And so we read about hiding our candle under a basket. The staves of that basket, as they are removed, one by one, are the darkness of the tares being removed and consumed, so that more of the light of the candle (Christ) can be seen.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
So where is the Kingdom of God? Is it not IN US?
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Once delivered from the darkness/tares, Christ (there is none rightous but Him) in us can shine forth as the sun (not under the rulership of the moon/law anymore). If this was literal, He wouldn't have said we need the hearing ear (that HE plants) to hear it.
Also remember He said that it would be as it was in the days of Noah when the flood came. The righteous didn't leave the earth when the flood came; they were RAISED UP above the waters of death to the flesh by the ARK and the Word of the Lord (His breath/understanding) that came to them. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: Molly on November 19, 2011, 01:25:36 PM
Quote from: wwThe fig tree is the tree that withers away.
Fig tree produces fruit twice a year, in Spring and Fall. :mshock:
I guess Adam ate during the fall :laughing7:
Quote from: sheila on November 18, 2011, 11:54:53 PM
TT
the dream is about your spiritual struggle...you are rising spiritually to the heavenly mind...but not fully commited to leave 'earthly' things behind.
that in turn 'drags you down' spiritually...and when you do 'get where you are going' you find it somewhat disappointed..veiled to you..
.and you desire to return to earthly things..[maybe because you are more comfortable with the known]
.
will pray for you in your struggle,brother :HeartThrob:
Yes you are right. I'm not sure what to expect in heaven, it kind of creeps me out that I'll have to spend eternity up there, full of strangers.
I just hope that the saint can return to earth and live life in the new earthly kingdom and do the things they never had the chance to do.
In heaven for example if I want to be a great cook, will I just click my fingers and bam there it is. I prefer the idea of constructing a recipe in the earth, that has real value to the people, rather than cooking a meal in heaven that a billion others can do so at will.
The only thing I look forward to about heaven is a body free from pain and the nauseating sensations of sleeping and waking up.
Thanks for praying, but earthly comforts are much needed right now, I seek more not less, the time for me is to build, and escape the desert, the lord has taken to much of my time, it's a challenge to go back into the world, but good things await from the lord.
@ cardinal
when the lord told you there'd be no rapture could it be your interpretation of it that is different to mine?
As a beginner in your walk, that you spoke of, maybe you thought that the rapture would fly your flesh and blood into the heavens, and so God said that he would bring the flesh into the dust. The dust carnality is scattered into the four winds and translated - as the spirit soareth into the heavens.
Quote from: thinktank on November 20, 2011, 10:19:50 PM
Yes you are right. I'm not sure what to expect in heaven, it kind of creeps me out that I'll have to spend eternity up there, full of strangers..
Your family and friends are there too.
QuoteIn heaven for example if I want to be a great cook, will I just click my fingers and bam there it is. I prefer the idea of constructing a recipe in the earth, that has real value to the people, rather than cooking a meal in heaven that a billion others can do so at will.
No more tears. No more sorrow. That includes being bored I think.
:clock:
Quote from: thinktank on November 21, 2011, 04:46:19 AM
@ cardinal
when the lord told you there'd be no rapture could it be your interpretation of it that is different to mine?
I've been thinking of the same thing. Maybe there will be some kind of "rapture", but not one in Tim LaHaye/Jerry B. Jenkins style.
This is the kind of stuff why a part of me is, has always been (but hopefully won't forever be) a non-believer. Contradicting God-experiences. Person A states "Lord told me that [X]", and person B states "Lord told me that [Y]", while X <> Y. The unbelieving part of me is suggesting that these "God-experiences" cannot be coming from the omnipotent Christian God, for He would have surely found a more tangible way of communicating with His people. However, the believing part of me is suggesting that these seemingly contradictory messages can be conciliated.
For example, I've seen a prophecy like "Don't look forward to a literal 1000 Kingdom with Jesus ruling the world from Jerusalem. The Kingdom of Heaven is simply within you". Then again, there are prophecies predicting a very literal Millennial Kingdom. What if the point God wanted to bring across with the "don't look forward to a literal Millennial Kingdom" prophecy was simply that one doesn't need to wait until the next eon to enjoy Kingdom Life, as (s)he can already have it spiritually in this current eon?
Quote from: Molly on November 19, 2011, 04:55:54 AM
Quote from: NathanReally? How in the world can you take "this generation" completely out of it's context and place it 2000 years after the fact? If it were to be 2000 years later, then please explain why Jesus didn't state that?
I don't think I took it out of context as far as the Mark 13 quote is concerned. I think 'this generation' refers to the generation that sees the fig tree start to send out tender shoots, blossoms, and leaves---then you will know that summer is right around the corner.
So to know who 'this generation' is in this passage, you have to first decide what he means by the fig tree metaphor.
Natural Israel is today only one tribe really [Judah], maybe some representatives of other tribes thrown in, but 10 of the 12 tribes were mostly lost to history. We don't see the 12 tribes mentioned at all in the NT until the book of revelation and there they are, with Dan gone and Joseph receiving a double portion. So....
Paul tells us that Israel [meaning the Jews] won't be brought in until the fulness of the gentiles. But what is the fulness of the gentiles?
Genesis 48:19
And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
Here, Jacob tells Joseph that Ephraim shall become a
"multitude"
H4393
מלו מלוא מלא
melô' melô' melô
mel-o', mel-o', mel-o'
From H4390; fulness (literally or figuratively): - X all along, X all that is (there-) in, fill, (X that whereof . . . was) full, fulness, [hand-] full, multitude.
[of] "nations"
H1471
גּי גּוי
gôy gôy
go'ee, go'-ee
Apparently from the same root as H1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts: - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.
Do you have to be a literalist to have your socks blown off by this one? Paul's 'fulness of the Gentiles' is Jacob's 'multitude of nations'---the children of the lost tribe of Joseph!--traced through, you guessed it!--the younger son, Ephraim!
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
--Rom 11
Or . . . .
The fig tree representing Israel of THAT GENERATION which died in AD 70, which if left "in" the original context, for me that's what the passage is implying. It's the correlating passage of Matthew 23 and 24 "not" about a generation 2000 years removed.
:cloud9: @ Aleax......And as always, the best thing to do is ask the LORD to reveal the truth to you. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: Aleax on November 22, 2011, 03:32:58 PM
Quote from: thinktank on November 21, 2011, 04:46:19 AM
@ cardinal
when the lord told you there'd be no rapture could it be your interpretation of it that is different to mine?
I've been thinking of the same thing. Maybe there will be some kind of "rapture", but not one in Tim LaHaye/Jerry B. Jenkins style.
This is the kind of stuff why a part of me is, has always been (but hopefully won't forever be) a non-believer. Contradicting God-experiences. Person A states "Lord told me that [X]", and person B states "Lord told me that [Y]", while X <> Y. The unbelieving part of me is suggesting that these "God-experiences" cannot be coming from the omnipotent Christian God, for He would have surely found a more tangible way of communicating with His people. However, the believing part of me is suggesting that these seemingly contradictory messages can be conciliated.
For example, I've seen a prophecy like "Don't look forward to a literal 1000 Kingdom with Jesus ruling the world from Jerusalem. The Kingdom of Heaven is simply within you". Then again, there are prophecies predicting a very literal Millennial Kingdom. What if the point God wanted to bring across with the "don't look forward to a literal Millennial Kingdom" prophecy was simply that one doesn't need to wait until the next eon to enjoy Kingdom Life, as (s)he can already have it spiritually in this current eon?
The rapture "theory" uses the passage out of 1 Thessalonians 4
9 Now
about your love for one another (The context isn't about the end of the world, it's about love for one another) we do not need to write to you, for you yourselves have been taught by God to love each other. 10 And in fact, you do love all of God's family throughout Macedonia. Yet we urge you, brothers and sisters, to do so more and more, 11 and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life: You should mind your own business and work with your hands, just as we told you, 12 so that
your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.
Believers Who Have Died
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep
There's one major clash with the literal aspects of this in that "if" this is to be taken literally, then who's going to know what the order is of who goes up when if this is all to happen in a twinkling of an eye in the first place?
But again, this isn't a book of knowledge, it's a book of spiritual signs. When Jesus spoke of the dead, he wasn't talking literal dead, he was talking spiritual dead. "Let the dead bury the dead". The stuff I have in red in this passage, for me, the dead he speaks of and those that are "outside" are one and the same. The subject hasn't changed. There are millions who attend church yet are walking dead. There are millions who are friends with those who are alive that rather than judge them to eternal hell, we should be encouraged that Christ comes to everyone of us. This is an "individual" relationship that God offers to every man. When those who are alive witness the coming of the Lord to those who are asleep, we ALL get CAUGHT UP in the resurrection experience. But for me, nowhere does Paul end one subject and begin a new one about something that's happening 2,000 years later. Love those who are alive and those who are dead.
But how can you regard them, who sleep in Jesus as spiritually dead?
Quote from: NathanThis is an "individual" relationship that God offers to every man. When those who are alive witness the coming of the Lord to those who are asleep, we ALL get CAUGHT UP in the resurrection experience.
Do you not believe in a literal ressurection of the dead?
I do not believe Jesus is returning "in the flesh".
I do not believe in the physical rapturing of the church.
I don't believe in a literal 1000 year reign with Christ.
I believe every one of these things is a spiritual experience within us, not a physical event yet to come.
I believe the reason Jesus came in the flesh the first time was to redeem THAT PART of man back to God. I believe this was completely and fully accomplished by his very own words while on the cross. "It is finished."
I believe the rapture, the "caught up" experience is what transpires every time Jesus appears to us as individuals.
And I also believe this 1000 year reign is "outside" of this physical realm. And heaven is not governed or measured by time. Time is measured by the sun and moon and you've read for yourselves that Revelation even says, there will be no more sun or moon. If there is no measurement of time, then there is no specific 1000 years of anyone reigning. It's a spiritual sign pointing toward a spiritual principle.
Try this on and see if it fits.
In Scripture, Jesus in speaking to the religious crowd stated "you search the Scriptures because in them you think you'll find eternal life. But I tell you they all point to "me".
Scripture, to me, is a book of signs that point to Christ. It's not material to build a platform of doctrinal beliefs on, that comes from Christ building his church "with" me as a living stone. Nor is the Bible to be used to build a house of my own . . .like . . a denomination for example. I mean really, if you think about it. . .imagine what someone's house would look like if they used road signs as their materials. All of these signs nailed next to each other . . ."no U turn" . . ."No passing zone" . . ."speed limit" . . ."curve ahead" . . . on and on. Your house would be built with all these signs, but their meaning would no longer be relevant because every one of the signs were removed from their original locations.
One house, hundreds of "directional/instructional" indicators and when you throw them all together, it's a house of confusion at best.
Then on the other end, you have others going down the same road and now that the sign has been removed, they're headed for disaster.
For me, this is what we do when we take Scripture out of context to reinforce our personal doctrines. We rely on our mind's filtering system to "sift out" the meaning of specific lines and words without taking the rest of the context into consideration, and call it "discernment". Even though there is no life manifesting in the end results.
I think topics like those I've listed above about what I believe are very similar to this same treatment. I believe the majority of the church has taken the signs down from their intended locations and they've been "reconstructed" in other locations as "proof" that a belief is legit. If "any" sign is removed from it's original path it immediately becomes dysfunctional. It no longer carries the spiritual significance it once did because it's been removed from it's original context.
To embrace a literal 1000 year reign is removing the sign from it's original location.
Walking in the spirit gives vision back to the journeymen to see where the signs were originally intended to be. Walking in the flesh is continuing to build a house of doctrine with signs that have lost their accuracy and relevance.
Again, this is just something that recently came to me as an example of how religions lose their way from where the real truth lies.
And I also believe this 1000 year reign is "outside" of this physical realm. And heaven is not governed or measured by time. Time is measured by the sun and moon and you've read for yourselves that Revelation even says, there will be no more sun or moon. If there is no measurement of time, then there is no specific 1000 years of anyone reigning. It's a spiritual sign pointing toward a spiritual principle.
Nathan
Yes it says that there is no sun and moon AFTER the 1000 years of peace.
The thing is that you miss out on the glory of Gods kingdom. While you yourself may be saved billions of people are not, who are in bondage to the evil of this world. Without the millenium kingdom when will this evil age ever end? It could last forever, which is kind of like tormenting forever and ever.
Mankind is not spiritually mature enough to handle the technology today, and as time passes more and more restrictions are placed on individuals freedoms, to prevent misuse of the technology. The way I see it the millenium is Gods kingdom manifesting upon the earth and destroying the systems that are currently in place,as spoken by Daniel the prophet. The millenium is something to look forward to, not something to fear.
What happens on the inside of us changes us on the outside, which leads to works, or otherwise our faith is in vain according to Paul-James.
You're still not understanding what I'm trying to say. You agree that the 1000 year is "outside" of this realm yet you still also believe the natural sun and moon will measure time not only in this realm but also in the natural. I disagree. You also imply that "some" will be here while others will be celebrating 1000 years, which I'd assume you'd then say the 1000 year measured is not by those in the reigning with Christ, only by those still on earth that aren't.
Think about "that" concept. We believe everyone will go to heaven, but not everyone can reign with him??? Or, everyone will "eventually" reign with Christ but only the elite will reign with him the first thousand years . . .in which case, if those that are reigning with Christ are in the spirit, what's a thousand years to them? Does not Peter even tell us that a thousand years is as a day???
For me, natural minds can't comprehend what's spiritually existing without the Holy Spirit leading us there. Everything is by faith, not fact. Makes it frustrating for the fact-finders, but truth isn't based on tangible because what we see is only temporary. Truth is eternal.
Wit[i]hout the millenium kingdom when will this evil age ever end? It could last forever, which is kind of like tormenting forever and ever.[/i]
The age ends when it's over . .. when it's run it's course. The literal thousand years isn't our goal. We can reign with Christ NOW if we enter into the complete finished works . . .but our minds are so resistant to that "laying down" thing.
The thing is that you miss out on the glory of Gods kingdom Again . . WHERE is the kingdom of God? It's not in some far off place or time. It's IN US. The ones missing out on the kingdom are those that are not looking inwardly to see that it's been here all along.
What happens on the inside of us changes us on the outside, which leads to works, or otherwise our faith is in vain according to Paul-James
Not sure what you're attempting to connect that to. But the works mentioned here is not about labor, it's about "function". Faith is the gas that makes the engine "run". It's what enables us to function in this life by illuminating the nature of His.
I understand what you are saying that, the kingdom is within individuals. But the point I am making is concerning mankind as a whole, that not all are saved in this age. The earth we live in continues to live ever onwards in its sinfull condition. But Christ came to not only change the spiritual nature of man but also the physical. Otherwise mankind will be in bondage to death for the rest of it's existence. The 1000 year millenium reign is a period of time in the future where God sets up an earthly kingdom, where he rules with an Iron rod, where Satan is bound. Time will still be in existence because the saints will be ruling over human being. The scriptures say the meek shall inherit the earth, blessed are they that mourn, for they shall be comforted. Being human beings means that the sun and moon are there, which also includes time. The saints of God will be as the angels of heaven, ascending and descending upon the earth, similar to Jacobs ladder. These are they who came out of great tribulation, they shall reign with Christ and rule for 1000 years. (rev)
Creation groaneth waiting for the manifestation for the sons of God, so that the Earth can live in peace, turning weapons into ploughshares, lamb lying down with the wolf.
Nathan
The thing is that you miss out on the glory of Gods kingdom Again . . WHERE is the kingdom of God? It's not in some far off place or time. It's IN US. The ones missing out on the kingdom are those that are not looking inwardly to see that it's been here all along.
---------------
But very few live in this kingdom. I am talking about a kingdom that is for all people, regardless of faith, not just for those who lay down their lives for christ, but for those who are hungry, the samirtan on the street, the deaf, the dumb, the blind, the poor of this world. Didn't Christ came for these too?
Jesus said for us to pray, let thy kingdom be on the earth as it is in heaven.
". . . They shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But everyone shall sit under his vine and under his fig tree, and no one shall make them afraid . . ." (Micah:4:3-4).
"They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea" (Isaiah:11:9).
Wild animals' nature transformed
"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them . . ." (Isaiah:11:6).
A world of agricultural abundance
"'Behold, the days are coming,' says the LORD, 'when the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him who sows seed; the mountains shall drip with sweet wine, and all the hills shall flow with it . . . They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; they shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them'" (Amos:9:13-14).
". . . I will cause showers to come down in their season; there shall be showers of blessing. Then the trees of the field shall yield their fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase" (Ezekiel:34:26-27).
Wastelands transformed
". . . Waters shall burst forth in the wilderness, and streams in the desert. The parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water . . ." (Isaiah:35:6-7).
Sickness and disease healed
"Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. Then the lame shall leap like a deer, and the tongue of the dumb sing" (Isaiah:35:5-6).
Mankind given a new heart and spirit
"Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them . . . that they may walk in my statutes and keep my judgments and do them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God" (Ezekiel:11:19-20).
Nations will learn God's ways
"Many nations shall come and say, 'Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD . . . He will teach us His ways, and we will walk in His paths. For out of Zion the law shall go forth . . .'" (Micah:4:2).
Jesus Christ will rule the world
"For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder . . . Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end . . ." (Isaiah:9:6-7).
TT, if you run on that platform, I'll vote for you!
Nathan, do you believe in a literal resurrection of the body?
This all sounds very much like the same mindsets the disciples had after Jesus had died. At first, they were shocked that he actually died because they were totally expecting him to rise up an army and over throw the Romans and reestablish Israel . . .literally . . .just like what you're presenting here as "literal". But when he died, they were forced to realize that it wasn't going to happen at all like they were imagining. So what'd they do? They went back to their old way of living . . .they went fishing.
All through the NIGHT (death, lack of knowledge and understanding) they fished for sustenance and caught nothing. But then early in the morning (resurrection) Jesus appeared and instructed them to throw the nets on the OTHER SIDE of the boat. See any similarities there? In Revelation, John was caught up in the spirit and heard a voice, but it was behind him . .. in order to SEE THE VOICE he had to TURN AROUND . . .cast your nets on the OTHER side. Do you think Jesus was directing all of this just for the show? It's all about spiritual principles.
And immediately, once again, they left their fishing/labor for following Jesus and STILL after everything they'd heard him tell them and saw him go through . . .they STILL were expecting him to TAKE THE THRONE and cast Rome out of Israel. They were STILL looking for a literal over throw instead of realizing it was all spiritual. Exact same thing as what's going on here in all of this.
So, are you saying there "is" a rapture that will take place where all believers will then go to heaven along with dead unbelievers and in the mean time, the people again, to whom we were to go the second mile for, to embrace God's grace with, to love with all our hearts and soul and mind . . .screw them, we're going to heaven to party on and leave them behind??? That sounds much like an ET perspective, only not as harsh as you've chosen to delete eternal hell from all of that. But if you're taking the thousand year reign literally, then you also have to take the destruction of the earth and everything in it literally as well. You can't have it both ways.
Either the power of the cross overcame the retribution of sin in man or it didn't. If men still have to go through a form of hell of ANY kind then the cross wasn't enough. It takes the cross "and" whatever you want to fill that in with. It becomes a very sticky doctrine again. There "is" a literal thousand year reign but not a literal eternal place of torment. There "is" a literal reversal of beastly natures between animal and man on the earth, but there's not really going to be a total destruction of the earth . . . if you keep this true to form, the Great Tribulation's end is what ushers in the 1000 year reign . . . and that opens a whole other can of worms.
I believe the cross caused ALL MEN to be saved. But those that reject a relationship with Christ can not experience the unlimited benefits of such an inheritance that requires . . .a relationship with Jesus Christ. This all pertains to THIS REALM. When we pass through THE VEIL of death, for me, the ozone layer is a picture of death. It's what defines our atmosphere from outer space. It enables us to breathe, but it also separates us from what's on the other side. Anything that passes through it is burned. Death, for me does the same thing to the carnality that I've embraced in this realm. Anything not eternal can not pass through the veil of death. Carnality is not eternal.
Are we to measure our actions on this earth to be greater than the acts of God beyond this earth? Was not the sacrifice of Jesus the greatest act of all creation? How then can our earthly acts negate the outcome of what the finished work of the cross has done? Why would we spend a thousand years reigning with Jesus in this realm when he's already completed everything that needs to be done in this realm to enable us to go to his?
"I've gone on to prepare a place for you so that where I am, you will also be . . ."
Does that sound like Jesus is coming back here? This place he's preparing ahead of us . . .is this just a temporary place for us to hang out until the thousand year reign brings us back to earth? Quite frankly, I don't believe "this" earth we're living in is the same earth that existed before Adam and Eve were introduced to it. And I don't think it'll be the same earth that will remain in the end as we know it to be now either. This earth is still bound by the curse of the misalignment of Adam and until time releases it back to the Father's original creation of things, it will remain what it is. But in the end, I believe that which is now spiritual but invisible will become visible and that which is tangible and visible now will become invisible. The curse will be reversed for all creation.
But that's just where I'm seeing it today.
Quote from: thinktank on November 23, 2011, 12:52:53 AM
I understand what you are saying that, the kingdom is within individuals. But the point I am making is concerning mankind as a whole, that not all are saved in this age. The earth we live in continues to live ever onwards in its sinfull condition. But Christ came to not only change the spiritual nature of man but also the physical. Otherwise mankind will be in bondage to death for the rest of it's existence. The 1000 year millenium reign is a period of time in the future where God sets up an earthly kingdom, where he rules with an Iron rod, where Satan is bound. Time will still be in existence because the saints will be ruling over human being. The scriptures say the meek shall inherit the earth, blessed are they that mourn, for they shall be comforted. Being human beings means that the sun and moon are there, which also includes time. The saints of God will be as the angels of heaven, ascending and descending upon the earth, similar to Jacobs ladder. These are they who came out of great tribulation, they shall reign with Christ and rule for 1000 years. (rev)
Creation groaneth waiting for the manifestation for the sons of God, so that the Earth can live in peace, turning weapons into ploughshares, lamb lying down with the wolf.
Nathan
The thing is that you miss out on the glory of Gods kingdom Again . . WHERE is the kingdom of God? It's not in some far off place or time. It's IN US. The ones missing out on the kingdom are those that are not looking inwardly to see that it's been here all along.
---------------
But very few live in this kingdom. I am talking about a kingdom that is for all people, regardless of faith, not just for those who lay down their lives for christ, but for those who are hungry, the samirtan on the street, the deaf, the dumb, the blind, the poor of this world. Didn't Christ came for these too?
Jesus said for us to pray, let thy kingdom be on the earth as it is in heaven.
". . . They shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But everyone shall sit under his vine and under his fig tree, and no one shall make them afraid . . ." (Micah:4:3-4).
"They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea" (Isaiah:11:9).
Wild animals' nature transformed
"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them . . ." (Isaiah:11:6).
A world of agricultural abundance
"'Behold, the days are coming,' says the LORD, 'when the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him who sows seed; the mountains shall drip with sweet wine, and all the hills shall flow with it . . . They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; they shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them'" (Amos:9:13-14).
". . . I will cause showers to come down in their season; there shall be showers of blessing. Then the trees of the field shall yield their fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase" (Ezekiel:34:26-27).
Wastelands transformed
". . . Waters shall burst forth in the wilderness, and streams in the desert. The parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water . . ." (Isaiah:35:6-7).
Sickness and disease healed
"Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. Then the lame shall leap like a deer, and the tongue of the dumb sing" (Isaiah:35:5-6).
Mankind given a new heart and spirit
"Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them . . . that they may walk in my statutes and keep my judgments and do them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God" (Ezekiel:11:19-20).
Nations will learn God's ways
"Many nations shall come and say, 'Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD . . . He will teach us His ways, and we will walk in His paths. For out of Zion the law shall go forth . . .'" (Micah:4:2).
Jesus Christ will rule the world
"For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder . . . Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end . . ." (Isaiah:9:6-7).
TT I kind of see this the same way you do.
CHB
This earth is still bound by the curse of the misalignment of Adam and until time releases it back to the Father's original creation of things, it will remain what it is. But in the end, I believe that which is now spiritual but invisible will become visible and that which is tangible and visible now will become invisible. The curse will be reversed for all creation.
But that's just where I'm seeing it today.
Nathan
So you do agree with me then, that there will be an earthly kingdom governed by Christ, as time passes, releases.
Quote from: Nathan on November 22, 2011, 09:56:42 PM
I believe the reason Jesus came in the flesh the first time was to redeem THAT PART of man back to God.
Perfect!
Quote from: thinktank on November 23, 2011, 12:52:53 AM
". . . They shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But everyone shall sit under his vine and under his fig tree, and no one shall make them afraid . . ." (Micah:4:3-4).
"They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea" (Isaiah:11:9).
Those who say there is to be a thousand years when Jesus reigns on the earth at Jerusalem and the Jews are exulted and doted on by Gentiles have a problem with the attack by the hordes of Gog and Magog that is supposed to come at the end of it.
If they don't learn war any more, why are they all equipped with swords and clubs and spears and bows and arrows, shields and bucklers, etc., as described by Ezekiel?
When the earth is full of the knowledge of the Lord, why would Satan be let loose, to deceive the nations? What a sad end to the thousand years -- all those people deceived, who attack the beloved city!
Some say that the attack by Gog and Magog comes at the beginning of the millennium rather than its end. Others say it is before the millennium, and they look every day for signs of an invasion by Russia and Iran and various other nations. But this idea is problematic, because the Jews have built a great wall or fence around the West Bank and the prophecy says the invaders come against "a land of
unwalled villages." The Jewish state of today does not qualify; besides, the idea of armies coming on horses and armed with bows and arrows and spears and clubs does not fit today's military technology very well.
Still another idea is that there are two invasions, one at the start of the millennium, one at the end. Or, one before the millennium, and one at its end. The one at the end is based on Rev. 20:8-9. The first one is based on Ezekiel 38-39.
None of these schemes is very satisfactory, and the whole idea of a rebellion in the millennium seems to contradict what Isaiah wrote, "neither shall they learn war any more" ... "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain."
Hmm.. maybe we should consider another approach to those prophecies.
Quote from: thinktank on November 23, 2011, 12:52:53 AM
Jesus Christ will rule the world
"For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder . . . Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end . . ." (Isaiah:9:6-7).
"... and peace there will be no end"
This also seems to
contradict the idea of a great revolt at the end of the thousand year reign...
Doug
Quote from: NathanThis all sounds very much like the same mindsets the disciples had after Jesus had died. At first, they were shocked that he actually died because they were totally expecting him to rise up an army and over throw the Romans and reestablish Israel . . .literally . . .just like what you're presenting here as "literal". But when he died, they were forced to realize that it wasn't going to happen at all like they were imagining. So what'd they do? They went back to their old way of living . . .they went fishing.
They were expecting him to raise up a kingdom on earth because prophecy said he would. They missed, or misunderstood, the suffering servant chapter of Isaiah. The cross was beyond their understanding, a mystery kept hidden by God. But, they were right that prophecy predicted a king who would reign on earth.
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth." (Jer. 23:)
...and the government will be upon his shoulders [Isa 9:6]
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." (Isa. 2)
44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. [Dan 2]
The predictions of Messiah as King on earth are so dramatically opposed to the suffering servant Messiah that some Jews have debated the possibility of there being two Messiahs.
Two Messiahs? Or the same one, coming to earth twice in different capacities?
Quote from: DougIf they don't learn war any more, why are they all equipped with swords and clubs and spears and bows and arrows, shields and bucklers, etc., as described by Ezekiel
Quotebesides, the idea of armies coming on horses and armed with bows and arrows and spears and clubs does not fit today's military technology very well.
Einstein said WWIV would be fought with sticks and stones.
Hi Doug!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOH6SzDX3l4
Zechariah 9:9-10 -- A King of Peace
Israel certainly had her share of disappointing kings. The books of Samuel, Kings and Chronicles attest to this history. But in Zechariah 9:9-10, the prophet points to a coming king who is unique.
"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your king is coming to you;
He is just and endowed with salvation,
Humble, and mounted on a donkey,
Even on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
And He will speak peace to the nations;
And His dominion will be from sea to sea,
And from the River to the ends of the earth."
This isn't just any king. The prophet tells the people of Israel to be joyful, to get excited, because the promised one, the one sent from God, the long awaited king, is coming. And so this passage has been interpreted as messianic; that is, it is often supposed that the king in this passage is none other than the Messiah, the savior of Israel.
Traditional Judaism teaches that, "The messiah is a G-d fearing, pious Jew, who is both a Torah scholar and a great leader. He is to be a direct descendent of King David, anointed as the new Jewish King. (In fact, the Hebrew word for messiah 'Moshiach' means 'anointed one.')"1
Many Jewish people do not give much thought to the coming of a Messiah anymore, and those who do often picture him as a mighty conqueror, even a superhero-type figure. But here in Zechariah 9 the picture is very different the king is not coming to fight a war; he comes in gentleness and meekness. He is the king over all the earth and he has all authority, but he comes in this humble fashion, riding on a baby donkey, as opposed to a chariot or even a great horse.
This passage of Scripture provides a picture of a Messiah-king, a deliverer of salvation, gently offering his kingship to Israel and to the world he is a man of peace for all peoples. He will proclaim peace to all the nations, not just to Israel.
In our world today peaceful people may win prizes, but they don't necessarily command authority. We've come to expect a certain amount of confidence, even arrogance, from our leaders. We expect them to do what they have to do to maintain order. Especially in Israel and the Middle East, it is difficult to fathom that someone could come to such power on peaceful terms. A king who does not fight? Yet in this passage, that is exactly what is promised.
Zechariah 14:2-4 -- A King of War
Later, however, Zechariah gives another description of the coming king, a picture quite different from that of chapter 9. Let's take a brief look at the context for his statement:
"For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured. Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south."
This picture is very much like an epic battle scene from a movie full of bloodshed and tragedy and triumph. Then in verses 8-9 we read:
"And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter. And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one."
Chapters 9 and 14 are the central passages in Zechariah telling of this king who will reign over all the earth. In chapter 9 the king is humble, but in chapter 14 he is a force to be reckoned with. In the latter picture, the king is a conqueror; he comes in wrath, meting out judgment to the enemies of Israel. This is perhaps a more traditional picture of Messiah, a mighty hero who fights on our behalf.
Mysteriously, this passage seems to suggest that this Messiah-king is none other than the Lord God himself, God coming to fight on behalf of his people (see page 8). In any case, we are presented with a dramatically different picture of the king here than the one we see in Zechariah 9.
Two Descriptions, Two Kings?
So the question is, does this king who reigns over all the earth come gently, riding on a donkey in peace? Or in great wrath, ready to do battle? Is Zechariah contradicting himself? This is a big puzzle for Jewish scholars as well. But this is not the only place in the Scriptures where we find seemingly divergent pictures of Messiah (see chart on page 5). For example, Micah 5 tells us he is born in Bethlehem, the city of David. But in Daniel 7 the prophet tells us he will arrive, riding on the clouds of heaven. Is the Messiah going to be cut off (killed) as predicted in Daniel 9, or will he come in regal splendor and reign forever, as Isaiah 9 tells us? Is he the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 or a royal king portrayed in Psalm 2?
In response to these two seemingly opposite pictures of Messiah, some rabbis decided that there must be two messiahs, the Messiah ben Yosef who would come and suffer and Messiah ben David, who would come as a conquering king.
Another Jewish tradition explains the two contrasting portraits of Messiah like this: "If the people of Israel will be righteous, the Messiah will come in the clouds of Heaven. If they will not be righteous, he will come as a poor man riding upon an ass" (Sanhedrin 98a).
Are such explanations necessary or is it possible that one individual might "fit the bill" of both pictures; someone who would be both a king of peace and a king of power, a humble servant and a conqueror? If so, what would this extraordinary person look like?
The Once and Future King
There is still another Jewish view concerning the two pictures of the Messiah-king that accurately fulfills the portrait we see in Zechariah and elsewhere in the Hebrew Scriptures. This view actually predates the other two mentioned. It's the position presented in the New Testament.
The writers of the New Testament were Jewish people, living in the first century, who believed that the prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures described one Messiah, a great king who was to come twice, first as a servant, then as conqueror. They believed that Y'shua (Jesus) was the fulfillment of both expectations.
Y'shua was not a typical king. His was a life marked by humility. He was a man of gentleness and peace. But the peace he offered was different from what most people think about it was a peace that comes from the depth of personal spiritual solutions that Y'shua offered to people who would follow him.
"Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives, do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful" (John 14:27).
"For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which is lost" (Luke 19:10).
Near the close of Y'shua's life on earth, he called to his disciples to get a donkey with its colt. Just before Passover, Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a colt of a donkey, fulfilling the prophecy Zechariah gave more than five hundred years earlier. And the people shouted and rejoiced:
"Hosha-na to the Son of David; BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD; Hosha-na in the highest!" (Matthew 21:9).
The people were shouting, "Save us!" They understood that their king had come and that he was offering powerful, life-changing salvation to those who would welcome him. In fact, the name "Y'shua" means "God saves."
Though Y'shua did not usher in an age of "peace on earth" as many hoped then and many wish for today, he did offer peace with God to everyone willing to trust in him and the atonement for sin he offered through his death and resurrection.
Y'shua was a man of peace, but he was also a man of strength. He boldly proclaimed himself to be the Messiah, the Son of God, even though he knew that he would be crucified for these claims.
That's because Y'shua also knew that he possessed the power of an indestructible life. Though he was to die, he knew that he would rise again. Consider his words to a Jewish audience:
"I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again " (John 10:17b-18d).
It was a hard claim to believe and yet many witnessed Jesus' resurrection and were willing to die proclaiming the truth of his life. Today, millions of people around the world wait for his return.
What will that return look like? According to Zechariah it will be a day of judgment, but also a day of deliverance for those who honor the king:
"Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty " (Zechariah 14:6).
So the king came first to offer his kingship, to give people the chance to enthrone him. One day he'll come again to take by force what is rightfully his. Like a parent dealing with children: the father or mother hopes the children will obey on their own, so they begin dealing with them gently, but when the children refuse to submit, the parents insist and enforce their will with resolve. This is the picture Zechariah paints of the king who has come, the one who will come again.
http://jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/15_5/returningking
Quote from: Molly on November 23, 2011, 06:51:44 AM
Zechariah 9:9-10 -- A King of Peace
Israel certainly had her share of disappointing kings. The books of Samuel, Kings and Chronicles attest to this history. But in Zechariah 9:9-10, the prophet points to a coming king who is unique.
"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your king is coming to you;
He is just and endowed with salvation,
Humble, and mounted on a donkey,
Even on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
And He will speak peace to the nations;
And His dominion will be from sea to sea,
And from the River to the ends of the earth."
When Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the ass, and the colt following, he fulfilled Zechariah 9:9-10, according to Matthew 21:4. He was called the king of Jerusalem; they crowned him with a crown of thorns, and put a label on his cross, "Jesus the King of the Jews."
Isaiah 2:1-3 says the mountain of the Lord's house will be "established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills." This is fulfilled in the New Testament; Jerusalem is "the Jerusalem which is above" [Gal. 4:26] and Heb. 12:22 says "ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem."
Jerusalem was raised up, higher than the hills, to heaven, when Jesus ascended to heaven, which fulfills Isaiah's prophecy. Those who believe in him have been "delivered from the power of darkness," and they have been "translated" into Christ's kingdom. [Colossians 1:13] His kingdom is invisible, not an earthly one.
To be "delivered from the power of darkness," corresponds to the binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3.
Paul said, in Ephesians 2:5-6, that the saints "sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." In the same epistle he spoke of "spiritual wickedness in high places," that the saints wrestle against.
Ephesians 6:11-12
Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
The armor of God includes a breastplate, shoes, a shield, a helmet, a sword, and Paul says "Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth."
Compare this armor with the swords carried by the hordes of Gog and Magog, [Ezekiel 38:4] and their shields, bucklers, bows and arrows, handstaves, and spears. [Ezekiel 39:9]
Paul said the
sword represents the Scriptures, and in Psalm 64:3, arrows are identified with "bitter words."
The armies of Gog and Magog all ride upon horses, [Ezekiel 38:15] and horses are involved in the invasion described in Zechariah's prophecy too. "I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness." [Zechariah 12:4]
The horses, asses, mules, and camels in the assault upon Jerusalem are smitten with an awful plague. [Zechariah 14:15] Horses and mules are symbolic of people with no understanding. "Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee." [Psalm 32:9] Note that plagues are often infectious; the flawed interpretations of prophecy are likewise very infectious, and affect many.
Those who have claimed that Ezekiel's prophecy is about a military attack on the Jews by a group of nations including Russia and Iran and various other nations are greatly
embarrassed by the construction of the Israeli West Bank Separation Barrier in the last 10 years, which thwarts their interpretation of Ezekiel's prophecy, and exposes their interpretations as completely false.
John interprets Ezekiel's prophecy about Gog and Magog in Revelation 20:9 as an assault upon "the camp of the saints" and "the beloved city," which is the church, the bride of the Lamb in Revelation 21. The thousand years, then, must be something other than the millennium of dispensationalism.
In his prophecy about the "thousand years," John declared that during that period, Satan is bound, and no longer deceives the nations, and in the same period of time, those who have been "beheaded" reign with Christ, and they are priests of God and of Christ. The apostle Peter said that a thousand years with God is as a day, and a day as a thousand years. [2 Peter 3:8] Thus, when John mentioned a thousand years as the length of the saints' reign with Christ, this must be a figurative number, to be understood
spiritually, rather than in terms of the
letter, as earth days, earth months, and earth years, do not apply to things that are spiritual. The reign of the
beheaded saints together with Christ, in Revelation 21, is clearly a spiritual concept. How could it be otherwise?
In Ecclesiastes 6:6, "a thousand years" is related to a portion of a human lifetime; "Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?"
The apostle Peter wrote, "the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries." [1 Peter 4:3] He encouraged the believer "to live the rest of his time in the flesh" according to the will of God.
Paul spoke of the old nature as dead, and the saints being made anew--a new creature. "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." [Romans 7:6]
This could be what is signified by beheading in Revelation 20. Paul said: "And be renewed in the spirit of your mind." [Ephesians 4:23] This leads naturally to the idea of "beheading" as a
metaphor of the person who repents and lives the new way, subject to Christ.
Those who are
beheaded reign with Christ, and beheading is
personal and
individual. The "thousand years" applies to individuals, not the whole church. The "time, times and a half" applies to the whole age of the church, but the "thousand years" is associated with the individual who has been figuratively "beheaded" reigning with Christ. Beheading is also associated with the idea of sacrifice, as some animals that were sacrificed were beheaded. Paul wrote:
Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Doug
Quote from: DougSome say that the attack by Gog and Magog comes at the beginning of the millennium rather than its end. Others say it is before the millennium, and they look every day for signs of an invasion by Russia and Iran and various other nations. But this idea is problematic, because the Jews have built a great wall or fence around the West Bank and the prophecy says the invaders come against "a land of unwalled villages." The Jewish state of today does not qualify;
QuoteThose who have claimed that Ezekiel's prophecy is about a military attack on the Jews by a group of nations including Russia and Iran and various other nations are greatly embarrassed by the construction of the Israeli West Bank Separation Barrier in the last 10 years, which thwarts their interpretation of Ezekiel's prophecy, and exposes their interpretations as completely false.
I'm not sure that the wall is meant to wall in the villages of Israel as much as to wall in the villages of Palestine. Nor does it seem to me that the west bank barrier acts as an embarrassment to the Christian world due to the so called foiling of prophecy as much as an outrage due to human rights violations and violations of international law.
Could we argue that Israel is still a land of unwalled villages? Absolutely. It is Palestine that has become a land of walled villages, not Israel, oftentimes cutting off one half of the village from the other, and one part of the country from another.
"The Israeli West Bank barrier is a separation barrier (see "Names of the barrier") being constructed by the State of Israel along and within the West Bank. Upon completion, the barrier's total length will be approximately 760 kilometres (470 mi) (twice the length of the 1949 Armistice Line (Green Line) between the West Bank and Israel). The barrier is a fence with vehicle-barrier trenches surrounded by an on average 60 metres (200 ft) wide exclusion area (90% of its length), and an 8 metres (26 ft) tall concrete wall (10% of its length).[1] The barrier is built mainly in the West Bank and partly along the 1949 Armistice line, or "Green Line" between Israel and Palestinian West Bank. 12% of the West Bank area is on the Israel side of the barrier.[2]
Supporters argue that the barrier is necessary to protect Israeli civilians from Palestinian terrorism, including the suicide bombing attacks that increased significantly during the Second Intifada.[3] There has been a reduced number of incidents of suicide bombings since the construction of the barrier. According to statistics published by the Israeli government, between 2000 and July 2003, when the "first continuous segment" of the barrier was built, 73 Palestinian suicide bombings were carried out from the West Bank, killing 293 Israelis and injuring over 1,900. However, from August 2003 and the end of 2006, only 12 attacks were carried out, killing 64 Israelis and wounding 445.[4] Supporters argue that this is indicative of the barrier being effective in preventing such attacks.[5]
Opponents of the barrier object that the route substantially deviates from the Green Line into the occupied territories captured by Israel in the Six-Day War of 1967. They argue that the barrier is an illegal attempt to annex Palestinian land under the guise of security,[6] violates international law,[7] has the effect of undermining negotiations (by establishing new borders),[8] and severely restricts Palestinians who live nearby, particularly their ability to travel freely within the West Bank and to access work in Israel.[8] In a 2004 advisory opinion, the International Court of Justice considered that "Israel cannot rely on a right of self-defence or on a state of necessity in order to preclude the wrongfulness of the construction of the wall". The Court found that "the construction of the wall, and its associated régime, are contrary to international law".[9]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier
Quote from: Molly on November 23, 2011, 03:17:47 AM
Quote from: NathanThis all sounds very much like the same mindsets the disciples had after Jesus had died. At first, they were shocked that he actually died because they were totally expecting him to rise up an army and over throw the Romans and reestablish Israel . . .literally . . .just like what you're presenting here as "literal". But when he died, they were forced to realize that it wasn't going to happen at all like they were imagining. So what'd they do? They went back to their old way of living . . .they went fishing.
They were expecting him to raise up a kingdom on earth because prophecy said he would. They missed, or misunderstood, the suffering servant chapter of Isaiah. The cross was beyond their understanding, a mystery kept hidden by God. But, they were right that prophecy predicted a king who would reign on earth.
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth." (Jer. 23:)
...and the government will be upon his shoulders [Isa 9:6]
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." (Isa. 2)
44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. [Dan 2]
The predictions of Messiah as King on earth are so dramatically opposed to the suffering servant Messiah that some Jews have debated the possibility of there being two Messiahs.
Two Messiahs? Or the same one, coming to earth twice in different capacities?
Neither one.
One Christ CAME to the earth and fulfilled the prophecies. He did everything you just quoted. His judgments were righteousness. I seriously don't think these passages skip over the cross experience only to tell you that he's coming again in the end of time to rule over the earth. One has to "add to" what's there in order to take away an idea that he's coming twice physically.
Perhaps TT has hit on something here in that we may be saying the same things about what's going on on the earth but in my eyes, the earth "then" isn't going to be in the same state as it is now. I believe when the curse is removed, the natural realm will no longer be the dominant realm as it is today. I believe the earth will still exist. I believe the meek truly will inherit not just the dominion over "my" earth, but also "the" earth it's just that the natural realm will no longer be what it is now. I believe there will be a reversal of which realm is visible (primary) to us and which is invisible, (secondary) but still existing.
And maybe that's where the differences are. I don't believe Jesus is returning "in the flesh" to the realm of flesh. But I do believe he returned, returns and will be returning. He returned to "this" earth 2000 years ago. He returns to "our" earth individually and resurrects us from our death and he'll return to the whole earth but after the reversal of the order of spirit and flesh.
I believe a lot of the prophecies about the Gog and Maygog have already happened in history and continue to happen within us metaphorically but to project wars to be around after the end has come, I don't agree with that.
Quote from: NathanAnd maybe that's where the differences are. I don't believe Jesus is returning "in the flesh" to the realm of flesh. But I do believe he returned, returns and will be returning. He returned to "this" earth 2000 years ago. He returns to "our" earth individually and resurrects us from our death and he'll return to the whole earth but after the reversal of the order of spirit and flesh.
No one is saying he will return in the 'flesh.' He will return in his glorified body and our flesh will be changed in an instant, in the blinking of an eye.
For those who carry his Spirit, yes he 'returns and will be returning.'
Even so, the world cannot see him.
But, when he returns in his glorified body, the whole world will see it at the same time.
And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. [Isa 40:5]
Am I the only one whose heart leaps at this?
Quote from: Nathan
Neither one.
One Christ CAME to the earth and fulfilled the prophecies. He did everything you just quoted. His judgments were righteousness. I seriously don't think these passages skip over the cross experience only to tell you that he's coming again in the end of time to rule over the earth. One has to "add to" what's there in order to take away an idea that he's coming twice physically.
Perhaps TT has hit on something here in that we may be saying the same things about what's going on on the earth but in my eyes, the earth "then" isn't going to be in the same state as it is now. I believe when the curse is removed, the natural realm will no longer be the dominant realm as it is today. I believe the earth will still exist. I believe the meek truly will inherit not just the dominion over "my" earth, but also "the" earth it's just that the natural realm will no longer be what it is now. I believe there will be a reversal of which realm is visible (primary) to us and which is invisible, (secondary) but still existing.
And maybe that's where the differences are. I don't believe Jesus is returning "in the flesh" to the realm of flesh. But I do believe he returned, returns and will be returning. He returned to "this" earth 2000 years ago. He returns to "our" earth individually and resurrects us from our death and he'll return to the whole earth but after the reversal of the order of spirit and flesh.
I believe a lot of the prophecies about the Gog and Maygog have already happened in history and continue to happen within us metaphorically but to project wars to be around after the end has come, I don't agree with that.
Hi Nathan,
I believe a lot of prophecy has already happened but I still believe there are things still to happen, such as, Christ returning to earth. A resurrection. God will wipe away all tears. No more death, no more sorrow. God will see to it that the knowledge of him and truth will cover the earth. There will be a time of peace that even the animals will adhere to. I think Israel will have her kingdom which was promised to her, which will probably last for a 1000 years. I believe during this time is when the nations will be taught the truth. All things will become new. All will be in all.
As far as the antichrist and the other beast, they probably have already had their day in 70AD. I do think Daniel chapter 9 has already been fulfilled. If one notices this prophecy is for Israel because in verse 19 Daniel is praying and confessing his sins and the sins OF HIS PEOPLE. Also in verse 24 it says Seventy weeks are determined UPON THY PEOPLE AND UPON THY HOLY CITY. (Dan. 10: 14) it says, "Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall THY PEOPLE IN THE LATTER DAYS. I think all of this is for Israel just like Revelation is written to the seven Churches of the Jew's or Israel. I do think that some things in Revelation will apply to the end time, like the wipeing away of all tears, no more death or sorrow. God dwelling with mankind. All things becoming new.
I don't know if I left anything out or not but was wondering how you saw these things?
CHB
Quote from: Molly on November 23, 2011, 04:51:04 PM
I'm not sure that the wall is meant to wall in the villages of Israel as much as to wall in the villages of Palestine. Nor does it seem to me that the west bank barrier acts as an embarrassment to the Christian world due to the so called foiling of prophecy as much as an outrage due to human rights violations and violations of international law.
Could we argue that Israel is still a land of unwalled villages? Absolutely. It is Palestine that has become a land of walled villages, not Israel, oftentimes cutting off one half of the village from the other, and one part of the country from another.
It is a mistake, I think, to equate "Israel" with a regime in the Middle East, simply because some Jewish Zionist politicians in the 1940's picked that name. Even Orthodox Jews have denied that it is legitimate to call it "Israel."
"Zionism is an ideology that by definition opposed the Torah, since the Torah teaches that Jews must wait for the coming of the messiah, whereas Zionism attempts to replace the messiah with a redemption of our own." [http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/ (http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/)]
"From the inception of the Zionist State and particularly in recent times, the impression has been created in the World that there is some connection between the State, which falsely calls itself Israel, and the Jewish people as a whole."
...
"Torah Jewry protests at every opportunity against the Zionist rule over the Holy Land, and the Zionist rebellion against the neighboring nations. Torah Jewry has condemned the Zionist oppression of the Palestinians, the land's veteran inhabitants who have been driven from their homes and properties. The Zionists' barbaric and violent deeds are absolutely antithetical to the essence of the Jewish people." [Zionists Do Not Represent Jews (http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/notjews.cfm)]
It is also a major mistake, for understanding prophecy. The name "Israel" is significant, as many OT prophecies and promises apply to it.
In the book of Revelation, John says the saints are sealed, and they are included among the 12 tribes of Israel [Chapter 7]. He gives the names of each of the tribes. The number sealed, 12,000 of each tribe, is clearly a symbolic number. It is also used in the description of the holy city in Chapter 21. The dimensions of the city are 12,000 furlongs, its length and breadth and height being equal. This city is the "bride of the Lamb" so it represents the Church. Many of the things said of it are derived from Isaiah 60.
John also identifies the church with the temple of God, and the holy city, that is trampled by Gentiles [Chapter 11].
In Chapter 12 the seed of the woman, who represents the Church, are those who keep the commandments of God, and they overcome Satan.
In Chapter 13 the saints are those who don't worship the beast or his image, but the beast makes war with them.
In Chapter 14 he calls them virgins, and firstfruits, and they follow Christ wherever he leads.
In Chapter 20 they are
beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and they reign with Christ 1,000 years; they are blessed and holy, and they are not hurt by the 2nd death. The 1,000 years is identified as a "day" by Peter in 2 Pet. 3:8; Jesus said, "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work." [John 9:4] He contrasts
day and
night, and both are figurative.
Day refers to the enlightenment provided by the Gospel.
Paul said, "Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness." [1 Thessalonians 5:5]
The thousand years is connected with
day, and walking in the light of the Gospel.
Doug
Quote from: DougIt is a mistake, I think, to equate "Israel" with a regime in the Middle East, simply because some Jewish Zionist politicians in the 1940's picked that name. Even Orthodox Jews have denied that it is legitimate to call it "Israel."
QuoteIt is also a major mistake, for understanding prophecy. The name "Israel" is significant, as many OT prophecies and promises apply to it.
I hear you. And, I agree the word 'Israel" depends on the context.
I feel that what is happening in this age is a shadow of the real thing which will happen in the next age.
I'm not sure if you are saying all prophecy is now fulfilled, but I don't believe that. Nor do I believe it is even perfectly fulfilled for the firstfruits, the chosen of this age.
We are told that we are getting a 'taste' of the good things to come, and we are still looking in a clouded mirror.
So we wait, for a city built by God.
But, I believe his kingdom will come to earth one day and cover the earth like the water covers the sea.
Taste and see that the LORD is good. Oh, the joys of those who take refuge in him! [Psa 34:8]
Quote from: Cardinal on November 22, 2011, 04:00:55 PM
:cloud9: @ Aleax......And as always, the best thing to do is ask the LORD to reveal the truth to you. My :2c: Blessings....
I don't have the same kind of "direct" relationship with Him like some other people seem to do. Therefore, I depend on what other people are telling me. Fortunately, I know several trustworthy people with the gift of prophecy, and I have received accurate personal prophecy with advice several times.
However, I have had two major experiences that can be considered direct answers to prayers. The first one when I launched my latest attempt at becoming a Christian. At that time my knowledge of the Bible was even worse than nowadays, and I got worried over this infamous "unpardonable sin". So I asked God whether I had done it. I told Him if a certain person calls me after I've finished the prayer, I take that as a "no, you haven't". Immediately after I'd finished the prayer, this person called me. (He usually calls me about once a week.)
The second major experience was in the summer of 2010, when I was suffering a nervous breakdown because of the ET doctrine. I had compulsive negative religious thoughts about 24/7, except for the times I was asleep or under influence. I was quite well on my way to either losing my sanity, becoming an alcoholic or both. Ultimately I told God it's either that He tells me the truth on this UR/ET thing, or I commit suicide. Shortly after that something/someone (God? Holy Spirit?) impressed upon me that I should seek information about a person called "Dora van Assen". I did exactly what I was told, read her testimony and was greatly relieved. That experience started my road to recovery. And that's also the reason I've gone so much by her theology. I know we should be careful as in to what we take in as the truth, but my situation was roughly analogous to me being a sole survivor of a plane crash. The plane's fallen in middle of the desert. So I start walking and hope to reach civilization before I dehydrate. Just when I'm about to die I find an oasis. In that situation, would you just drink the water or start wondering on whether the water is drinkable or contaminated?
Hey Aleax. I said almost the exact same thing to Cardinal once about not being as able to hear directly from God as she does and she replied that we are all able and should be hearing from Him and being led by Him. I believe her. The more I get quiet and seek to hear from Him, the more I do. :HeartThrob:
a different 'take' on the rapture..what it is and where we are in the stream of Christ's kingdom...
the 1000 year preceded by armies of heaven warring against kingdom of darkness= the work done for us in delivering us from Babylon into truth
of Christ's victory...salvation of all mankind...first resurrection. Gog and Magog are the adversary released/time Jesus hands kingdom over to Father[Father finishes training]
last enemy death. Resurrection of righteous and unrighteous is this/after learning of salvation of all the unrighteous[offspring of viper spirits] fight against
the finished work of Christ...surrounding the camp[spirit redeemed body] as warring of sin in flesh against the spirit. God's purifying fire comes down
and changes /consumes/accept on His alter the sacrifice[Christ's]...rising into eternal spirit realm.
the end of the 1000 year reign is as the grape harvest....a few have a blessing in it[finding grapes in the desert] camp of spirit and truth
the knowledge of God as the waters cover the earth is the early and fall rains
when everyone is in Heaven/changed.....God then sends all His sons and daughters to their own estate[inheritance]...a NEW Heaven and Earth...
twelve heavens and earths[Adam?Christ 12 tribes Israel[real Israel of God].]....He makes ONE NEW MAN....NEW HEAVEN NEW EARTH...the creature He always had in mind
Lord's supper....call all birds to eat flesh of kings, armies,great and small[each man's hand against his brother] carnal slaughtering lays bare corruption in flesh
and consumes corrupted flesh..leaving only bones....which He then clothes in new flesh/earth,Heaven/mind of Christ.
I agree totally with Nathan on passing through the fire consuming carnality....in the end of the age/grape harvest fire comes down from heaven and condumes all carnality
and we rise and are clothed upon on high...and given our inheritance...a new heaven/earth...total resoration of all men. no more death..endless life
Quote from: Aleax on November 26, 2011, 12:34:42 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on November 22, 2011, 04:00:55 PM
:cloud9: @ Aleax......And as always, the best thing to do is ask the LORD to reveal the truth to you. My :2c: Blessings....
I don't have the same kind of "direct" relationship with Him like some other people seem to do. Therefore, I depend on what other people are telling me. Fortunately, I know several trustworthy people with the gift of prophecy, and I have received accurate personal prophecy with advice several times.
However, I have had two major experiences that can be considered direct answers to prayers. The first one when I launched my latest attempt at becoming a Christian. At that time my knowledge of the Bible was even worse than nowadays, and I got worried over this infamous "unpardonable sin". So I asked God whether I had done it. I told Him if a certain person calls me after I've finished the prayer, I take that as a "no, you haven't". Immediately after I'd finished the prayer, this person called me. (He usually calls me about once a week.)
The second major experience was in the summer of 2010, when I was suffering a nervous breakdown because of the ET doctrine. I had compulsive negative religious thoughts about 24/7, except for the times I was asleep or under influence. I was quite well on my way to either losing my sanity, becoming an alcoholic or both. Ultimately I told God it's either that He tells me the truth on this UR/ET thing, or I commit suicide. Shortly after that something/someone (God? Holy Spirit?) impressed upon me that I should seek information about a person called "Dora van Assen". I did exactly what I was told, read her testimony and was greatly relieved. That experience started my road to recovery. And that's also the reason I've gone so much by her theology. I know we should be careful as in to what we take in as the truth, but my situation was roughly analogous to me being a sole survivor of a plane crash. The plane's fallen in middle of the desert. So I start walking and hope to reach civilization before I dehydrate. Just when I'm about to die I find an oasis. In that situation, would you just drink the water or start wondering on whether the water is drinkable or contaminated?
:cloud9: Aleax, the Lord speaks to us in whatever way He can at the moment, so I have no doubt He led you to what/who would be of help to you. But you are entitled to hear Him for yourself, so let me encourage you to press in, ask Him to give you the hearing ear, and get the Word in you (He won't speak unless you have a "measuring rod" to compare what you hear with) and meditate on it.
No good father would have a child and then never speak to it. Is man more righteous than God? Seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be given. Blessings.....
In Revelation 20:8, John says those who have part in the first resurrection are blessed, and holy; he said that "they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." [Revelation 20:6]
A question for many is, does this refer to a future resurrection, or to the present state of believers? Do the saints
now reign with Christ?
Jesus promised the disciples that they would sit on 12 thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." [Matthew 19:28]
The apostle Peter wrote that the saints are "a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." [1 Peter 2:9-10]
Peter referred to the light of the Gospel.
In the first chapter of Revelation, John says of Jesus, "Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." [Revelation 1:5-6]
These scriptures connect reigning as kings and priests with the present era. James identified the church with the tabernacle of David, the royal line. [Acts 15:16]
Why did John say that the saints reign for a thousand years, in Revelation 20:8? Perhaps it is because this period corresponds to the time when Satan is bound with a chain, and confined in a bottomless pit. [Revelation 20:2]
Jesus said, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven," [Luke 10:18] referring to his own victory over Satan. He is the "strong man" who binds Satan. [Mark 3:27]
Paul said believers have been translated into Christ's kingdom. He connected Christ's kingdom with light, and contrasted it with "the power of darkness." He wrote: "Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins." [Colossians 1:12-14]
He said the saints are "children of the day"--"Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness." [1 Thessalonians 5:5]
Jesus spoke of the eye as the "light" of the body, and he said, if our eye is single, the whole body is "filled with light." [Matthew 6:22-24] He used the eye figuratively. "If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!" The New Testament shows that while the saints are citizens in the kingdom of light, some become seduced, and turn aside. For them, Satan is no longer bound.
In the 20th chapter of Revelation, there are several phrases which also occur in the 7th chapter of Daniel, suggesting that John alluded to Daniel's prophecy. They are compared in the table below.
Daniel 7 | | Revelation 20 |
I beheld till the thrones were cast down (vs. 9) | | And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them (vs. 4) |
and judgment was given to the saints of the most High (vs. 22) | | and judgment was given to them (vs. 4) |
the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom (vs. 22) | | and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years (vs. 4) |
I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them (vs. 21) | | And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth (vs. 7, 8) |
he shall wear out the saints of the most High (vs. 25) | | And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: (vs. 9) |
his throne was like the fiery flame ... A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him (vs. 9, 10) | | and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (vs. 9) |
Daniel's prophecy shows many of the saints are "worn out" by the little horn. The horn "prevails against" them. It is connected with the time when Satan is "loosed out of his prison" in the table.
The parallels between Daniel 7 and Revelation 20:4-9 suggest the influence of the little horn of the fourth beast in Daniel's vision corresponds to Satan being loosed from the bottomless pit where he was cast after he was bound by Jesus.
In Revelation 20:7, the expiry of the thousand years must occur individually; if a Christian turns aside from the light and truth of the Gospel, to darkness, that person becomes deceived. Just as beheading is personal and individual, so the thousand years of the saints' reigning with Christ as kings and priests seems to apply personally and individually. If so, the prophecies of Daniel 7 and Revelation 20:1-9 apply to the present age.
Doug
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I like that pairing of Dan 7 and Rev 20, Doug.
I just noticed in 20:9, the enemy is compassing the camp of the saints in the breadth of the earth, so this is happening everywhere.
My question, being literal, if this applies individually, what happens when your thousand years is up?
It makes more sense to me that these things,however you interpret them, are happening to everyone at the same time.
If I'm supposed to be ruling and reigning with Christ right now, I'm failing miserably, as he told us, the world will hate you for my sake.
:cloud9: I really like that post Doug, I can see some of it. I too believe it's happening/been happening throughout the ages, more and more manifestation of Him in His body. Revelation/manifestation happens inwardly and then expands (pulls up our tent stakes, enlarging our portion) until He cannot be hid anymore.
Last summer, thru my daughter, I was led to pray for a young man who had just been told by an ER doctor, that his X-ray showed a brain tumor (coincidence? I think not :winkgrin:).
The Lord had me on a months long Daniel fast at the time. I was instructed by Him to place my hands on the boy's temples. When I did, with a start, I literally felt Him slip His arms in mine, like you put on gloves up to your elbows. HE was praying for that boy thru me, LITERALLY. :mshock: I have had 2 experiences like this, and I fully anticipate the day when we will fully be manifested with Him in our midst. To God be the glory, it's all about Him. Blessings.....
The apostle Peter says in 2 Peter 3:8, "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." Suppose we replace the words "thousand years" in Revelation 20:1-7 with the phrase "day with the Lord." Would it make sense? Let's see:
Revelation 20:1-7
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a day with the Lord,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the day with the Lord should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a day with the Lord.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the day with the Lord was finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a day with the Lord.
7 And when the day with the Lord is expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison.
The number a thousand is used in Scripture to signify the idea of completeness or fullness, as in: "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills." [Psalm 50:10]
For some, the thousand years or the day with the Lord might end prematurely. This applies to those who fall away and abandon their faith, and return to the world from which they were delivered and had escaped. John's prophecy suggests they are in danger of being deceived and turning against the "camp of the saints" and the "beloved city." Enemies of the Church and of the Gospel are frequently former Christians.
Doug
Steve Moyise pointed out several ways that the book of Revelation depends on the prophecies of Ezekiel; the creatures having four faces, lion, ox, man, eagle, in Rev. 4 occur in Ez. 1; sealing of the saints in Rev. 7 compares to the sealing described in Ez. 9-10; the harlot city in Rev. 17 compares to Ez. 16:23; the lament over the city in Rev. 18 compares with Ez. 26-27; establishment of the New Jerusalem compares with Ez. 37-48. Other things drawn from Ezekiel include the precious stones, and the rainbow about God's throne, the crystal sea, and the expression "full of eyes." [Steve Moyise. Does the author of Revelation misappropriate the scriptures? (http://www.chi.ac.uk/theology/documents/DoesJohnMisappropriate.pdf) Andrews University Seminary Studies, Spring 2002, Vol. 40, No. 1. 3-21.]
The table below, from the above article by Moyise, lists several topics in Ezekiel's prophecies that correspond to things described in the final three chapters of Revelation.
Ezekiel | | Revelation |
Revival of dry bones (Ez. 37:10) | | First resurrection (Rev. 20:5) |
Reunited kingdom (Ez. 37:21) | | Saints rule for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:4) |
Gog & Magog battle (Ez. 38:2) | | Gog & Magog battle (Rev. 20:8) |
Gorging of the birds (Ez. 39:4) | | Gorging of the birds (Rev. 19:21) |
Taken to high mountain (Ez. 40:2) | | Taken to high mountain (Rev. 21:10) |
Temple is measured (Ez. 40:5) | | City is measured (Rev. 21:15) |
Temple full of God's glory (Ez. 43:2) | | City full of God's glory (Rev. 21:23) |
River of life (Ez. 47:12) | | River of life (Rev. 22:2) |
Doug
Quote from: Molly on November 26, 2011, 04:51:43 PM
I like that pairing of Dan 7 and Rev 20, Doug.
I just noticed in 20:9, the enemy is compassing the camp of the saints in the breadth of the earth, so this is happening everywhere.
My question, being literal, if this applies individually, what happens when your thousand years is up?
It makes more sense to me that these things,however you interpret them, are happening to everyone at the same time.
What if one interprets the thousand years as a day, based on 2 Peter 3:8?
The expression "in the days of ... " applies to persons, referring to their lifetimes, as in the examples below. John could have meant something like "in the days of ..." when he used the phrase "a thousand years" in his prophecy.
| | the days of Herod the king | | Matthew 2:1; Luke 1:5 |
| | the days of our fathers | | Matthew 11:12 |
| | the days of Noah | | Matthew 24:37; Luke 17:26; 1 Peter 3:20 |
| | the days of Abiathar the high priest | | Mark 2:26 |
| | the days of Elias | | Luke 4:25 |
| | the days of the Son of man | | Luke 17:22 |
| | the days of Lot | | Luke 17:28 |
| | the days of David | | Acts 7:45 |
| | in the days of Melchisedec | | Hebrews 5:6-7 |
| | the days of the voice of the seventh angel | | Revelation 10:7 |
| | the days of their prophecy | | Revelation 11:6 |
The last of these refers to the two witnesses. If John meant "day" in the sense of "in the days of ... " when he used "thousand years" in chapter 20, then that phrase might be applied
individually and
personally to those saints who are figuratively "beheaded," and the time of their reign with Christ.
When a person believes the gospel, and is baptized, he or she is raised up, to newness of life. Paul said, "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." [Romans 6:4] This may be the basis for the metaphor of "beheading."
Paul said believers have been blessed with spiritual blessings in heavenly places. [Ephesians 1:3] He said they sit together "in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." [Ephesians 2:5-7] What else could this be, but reigning with Christ?
Doug
Quote from: DougPaul said believers have been blessed with spiritual blessings in heavenly places. [Ephesians 1:3] He said they sit together "in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." [Ephesians 2:5-7] What else could this be, but reigning with Christ?
It's a good question. Do you feel like you are now reigning with Christ? Over what?
But, my question remains--what happens when the 1000 years or the day is over? Since it still seems to be bracketed by time.
Also, why would we be given reign now, when we only have an earnest of our redemption? Wouldn't that wait until we, like Christ, have the Spirit without measure and redeemed bodies? Remember the parable of the talents. The Master gives out talents to his servents and goes away to a faraway land. When he returns, he recompenses them based on how they used the talents.
His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master [Mat 25:23]
Quote from: Molly on November 27, 2011, 02:05:55 AM
Quote from: DougPaul said believers have been blessed with spiritual blessings in heavenly places. [Ephesians 1:3] He said they sit together "in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." [Ephesians 2:5-7] What else could this be, but reigning with Christ?
It's a good question. Do you feel like you are now reigning with Christ? Over what?
Even for kings there are but 24 hours in a day, 60 minutes in an hour, etc.
Quote from: Molly on November 27, 2011, 02:05:55 AM
But, my question remains--what happens when the 1000 years or the day is over? Since it still seems to be bracketed by time.
If the thousand years of Revelation 20 are understood in a spiritual sense, rather than by the letter, that expression represents the duration of the lives of individual Christians. The thousand years ends prematurely for those who fall away, who abandon their faith, who return to the world from which they had escaped, and cease to walk in the way of Christ. This terminates the thousand years, which represents the duration of their reign with Christ. For these people, the thousand years have ended.
On the other hand, those who endure to the end are promised a "crown of life." James wrote, "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." [James 1:12; see also Revelation 2:10]
John said, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." [Revelation 20:6]
The promise to those who endure to the end is that they are not hurt by the "second death," the lake of fire. [Revelation 20:14]
Quote from: Molly on November 27, 2011, 02:05:55 AM
Also, why would we be given reign now, when we only have an earnest of our redemption? Wouldn't that wait until we, like Christ, have the Spirit without measure and redeemed bodies? Remember the parable of the talents. The Master gives out talents to his servents and goes away to a faraway land. When he returns, he recompenses them based on how they used the talents.
His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master [Mat 25:23]
I think you answered your own question here. In my view the "thousand years" is a figure for the time which we have been given to reign with Christ in this age; an opportunity to build something durable upon the foundation that has been laid for us. [1 Corinthians 3:10-14]
Doug
"Even for kings there are but 24 hours in a day, 60 minutes in an hour, etc." Doug
In my Bible there are 12 hours in a day> Joh 11:9 Jesus answered, `Are there not twelve hours in the day? if any one may walk in the day, he doth not stumble, because the light of this world he doth see;
I already know that my offering of bewilderment will be not be recognized as worth and explanation, but I am totally at a loss as to what this post and the responses are saying. I maybe looked upon as a dolt and even ignorant or that my imagination is dulled to understanding to all the explanations of the OP. "I was changed into a spirit ghostly type being..." right there I am lost.
I unfortunately read, "23 minutes in Hell," and this dream seems so familar, almost like going the other way. I am not attempting to make light of the dream, yet from what is it espoused? The "rapture?"
In all honesty, many years ago when the Lord drew me into Pentecoste and speaking in tongues(as evidence of recieving the Holy Spirit) I had dreams such as this and listrened to others, and believed.
But there is strong meat, Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 27, 2011, 08:01:49 AM
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
The author of Hebrews contrasts "milk" with "strong meat."
Hebrews 5:13
For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
The metaphor of "milk" represents basic things about the Gospel, ideas that need no chewing. Infants lack teeth, and so they are unable to chew, or to eat "strong meat," which is another metaphor.
In John's account of the saints who were
beheaded reigning with Christ for a thousand years, the simplistic approach is to say it refers to a millennium on the earth. That view might be characterized as handling John's prophecy as if it was "milk," food meant for babes. It involves little interpretation, and difficulties are ignored. It can simply be swallowed, or
believed, without chewing, or
understanding. In post #37 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/book_revelation/rapture_dream_10137.msg131975.html#msg131975), I pointed out some of the difficulties with the chronology of the Gog Magog revolt inherent in that interpretation.
The idea of reigning with Christ now, in this life, is revealed in Paul's epistles, Ephesians 2:6; Colossians 1:13. John also brings in the concept of
beheading. Jesus spoke of cutting off a hand, and plucking out an eye; John spoke of
beheading.
Matthew 5:29-30
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into gehenna.
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into gehenna.
I suggest that the meaning of
beheading should be understood spiritually; it refers to the
mind being renewed, "be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind;" [Romans 12:2] "be renewed in the spirit of your mind." [Ephesians 4:23] It is not that hard to connect
beheading with the mind change involved in becoming a Christian. Just as
beheading is personal and individual, the
binding of Satan, and reigning with Christ, are concepts that are personal, and individual.
Doug
That just goes to show how many "churchgoers" aren't real Christians and why the Lord Jesus speaks in:
Matthew 25:12;
"...I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'
'do you feel like you are now reigning with Christ? Over what?"
Arise shine,for your light has come,and the glory of the Lord rises upon you. See,darkness covers the earth, and thick darkness is over the peoples
Nations will come to your light,and kings to the brightness of your dawn"
Light reigns over darkness..... you do not put a lamp under a basket.....
[He will establish her]
Quote from: sheila on November 27, 2011, 04:36:24 PM
'do you feel like you are now reigning with Christ? Over what?"
Arise shine,for your light has come,and the glory of the Lord rises upon you. See,darkness covers the earth, and thick darkness is over the peoples
Nations will come to your light,and kings to the brightness of your dawn"
Light reigns over darkness..... you do not put a lamp under a basket.....
[He will establish her]
To live successfully in this world, one has to have an extremely high tolerance for cognitive dissonance, which makes them, in effect, insane.
"dissonance"1
a : lack of agreement; especially : inconsistency between the beliefs one holds or between one's actions and one's beliefs — compare cognitive dissonance b : an instance of such inconsistency or disagreement
2
: a mingling of discordant sounds; especially : a clashing or unresolved musical interval or chord
You have to , in short, be willing to sing out of tune along with a huge chorus of voices that are also singing out of tune.
Should the light shine on you, and you then are able to hear the heavenly voices of the angels singing in tune, you suddenly can hear the dissonance of the world, and are awakened to the truth. You have developed an ear, so to speak.
But you cannot then change those around you. ' Listen, can't you hear what truth sounds like?'
No they don't hear it, and moreover, to them, you are the one who now looks insane.
GREAT post Molly! Great post :bigGrin: :thumbsup: Praise the Lord!
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 27, 2011, 08:01:49 AM
I already know that my offering of bewilderment will be not be recognized as worth and explanation, but I am totally at a loss as to what this post and the responses are saying. I maybe looked upon as a dolt and even ignorant or that my imagination is dulled to understanding to all the explanations of the OP. "I was changed into a spirit ghostly type being..." right there I am lost.
I unfortunately read, "23 minutes in Hell," and this dream seems so familar, almost like going the other way. I am not attempting to make light of the dream, yet from what is it espoused? The "rapture?"
In all honesty, many years ago when the Lord drew me into Pentecoste and speaking in tongues(as evidence of recieving the Holy Spirit) I had dreams such as this and listrened to others, and believed.
But there is strong meat, Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Ah Micah, bold as always :bigGrin: . If I may say, , what happened? why turn your back on the spirit. Perhaps if you were here many years ago you would have embraced the dream, but I guess that's speculative. Not to worry, maybe one day you will dream again and be what God called you to be, as God promised that in the last days old men shall dream visions and young men dreams. I hope God will reveal to you your great potential. God live.
Quote from: Molly on November 27, 2011, 07:02:53 PM
You have to , in short, be willing to sing out of tune along with a huge chorus of voices that are also singing out of tune.
There is a huge chorus of voices singing to the tune of premillennialism. If you are supporting that view you are part of a very big crowd, which, IMO, is out of tune with the teaching of the apostles and the whole New Testament, and misinterprets the
thousand years of Revelation 20.
Jesus spoke of a judgment "in the last day," [John 12:47-48] but where did he refer to a millennium?
Acts 17:31 says, "Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." Where is there any room for a millennium here?
Paul wrote, "... In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." [Romans 2:16] Where does Paul speak of a millennium?
Paul does teach that God will judge the world: "But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?" [Romans 3:5-6]
He also said that the saints will judge the world; but isn't that referring to the judgment? "Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" [1 Corinthians 6:2]
Paul looked forward to receiving a reward, "at that day," but he said nothing about reigning on earth for a thousand years. "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." [2 Timothy 4:8]
The apostle Peter wrote:
2 Peter 3:3-10
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Where does the millennium idea fit in these verses? I don't see it. Peter speaks of the
thousand years as a "day" in connection with the present age, and the "day of the Lord." He does not refer to a future millennium. The "day of the Lord" comes as a thief which suggests it may be upon us already, although most people are unaware of it.
And neither is the millennium taught in Revelation 20, when the
thousand years is interpreted as symbolic, representing the lifetime of individual believers, who are figuratively
"beheaded." Doug
The rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished.
The millenium may not make sense to you at this time, but deleting verses out of the bible is not a good way of coming to the truth.
Peace.
Quote from: thinktank on November 27, 2011, 10:24:27 PM
The rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished.
The millenium may not make sense to you at this time, but deleting verses out of the bible is not a good way of coming to the truth.
Peace.
I often can't do it, but I also think it's important to rightly divide what Jesus spoke of regarding the judgment of Israel from "end times eschatology"; i.e., IMO, there's a question of which "last day". I know it's tempting to get locked into a point of view, but I think it's important for those who may be open to consider how we (self included) often "mix" scriptural specific focus/intent. :2c:
When you guys get this all figured out, let me know. :laughing7:
(No, I am not a full preterist :bigGrin:).
Both could be true, Doug. We are, after all, born out of due time, premature, one age too early.
II. History and Premillennialism
Historical patterns on any given subject have profound significance. Nowhere is this more true than in Church history. And in the case of premillennialism, the facts of history are of special impact.
The early church was premillennial, as Paul L. King well illustrates elsewhere in this book of essays. Thiessen flatly says that "the early church was premillennial"4 and Fisher (in a comment of interest to me since I have come to this conclusion on my own) blames the Montanistic heresy of the second century with its prophetic eccentricities for the overthrow of Chiliasm in the early Church.5 Unfortunately, in the early Church, millennialism (i.e., Chiliasm) was thought by some to be both sensual and "grossly materialistic."6 After Origen, it is nearly impossible to overestimate Augustine's formidable contribution in the intervening centuries. Through his influence and writings (including The City of God), amillennialism became the de facto theology of the Church. With the Reformation and the historic return of the Church to the Bible, belief in the soon coming of Christ reemerged. Luther, Melancthon, Calvin and Knox may all be cited as fervent believers in the return of Jesus Christ.7 Belief in the imminent return of Jesus Christ unfortunately did not extend to premillennialism among the Reformers. Their view of Scripture, however, made the re-emergence of premillennialism likely, if not inevitable.
Indeed, there was a tremendous surge in premillennial belief in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. And, predictably, the surge was built upon the sturdy view of Scripture embraced earlier by the Reformers. Evangelical leaders crowded the premillennial platform. A.B. Simpson was among them.8 Thiessen says, ". . . there has been a return to the position of the early Church. Charles Wesley, Isaac Watts, Bengel, Lange, Godet, Ellicott, Trench, Alford, the Bonar brothers and most of the outstanding evangelists of the past and present generations have espoused the premillennial position."9 From Thiessen's perspective in the mid-twentieth century, he remained optimistic: "During the last sixty years there has been a renewed emphasis upon this blessed hope."10
Currently, as indicated earlier, premillennialism is under assault and is being repudiated on many sides.11 One possible factor in the decline of premillennialism is the ongoing controversies over pre- and post-tribulational views of the second coming of Jesus Christ. These controversies among dispensational premillennialists, along with present eccentricities in the charismatic/prophecy movements, may have combined to erode belief in premillennialism.
Finally, a new interest in Reformed theology sometimes also carries with it a casual disdain for the tenets of premillennialism. In seeking to be Calvin-like and Luther-like, the new "reformers" have not extended their passion for the full authority of Scripture to eschatology. And the long shadow of Augustine's amillennialism has lingered too. These caveats notwithstanding, the biblical arguments for premillennialism are several and strong.
III. Scripture and Premillennialism
Many sections of the Bible can be summoned to advance premillennialism. I include six of these passages here:
1) Revelation 20:1-6 affirms the concept of one thousand years six times, and it also affirms the rule and reign of a king, specifically Christ's rule. To overthrow or abandon premillennialism, Revelation chapter twenty must be attacked.
2) First Corinthians 15:23-28 references the coming of Jesus Christ and associates it with His rule and reign. This is a strong premillennial passage in that Jesus Christ is portrayed as the conquering monarch, clearly ruling and reigning. Amillennialism and postmillennialism do not fit this passage.
3) Daniel 7:13-14 describes the coming of the Son of Man in the clouds and His subsequent rule. All people, languages and people will serve Him. It sounds very much like Revelation 20:1-7. Premillennialism fits like a glove.
4) Isaiah 11:2-10 describes the wolf and the lamb dwelling together and a ruler's ensign which "the Gentiles [shall] seek." The ruler here is from "the root of Jesse" and again this scene from the prophet synchronizes with the New Testament passages on the millennium, Revelation 20 and First Corinthians 15.
5) Psalm 2:6-9 gives the description of a king on the holy hill of Zion. The uttermost parts are included, along with the heathen. He rules with a rod of iron. Again, a king ruling in a millennium-like ambiance is in view.
6) Other Scriptures which could be summoned to the premillennialist cause but upon which I will not comment include Isaiah 65:20, 25; Psalm 45:4; Ezekiel 37:27-28; Ezekiel chapters 40-48 (especially 43:19-27, 45:20-21), and Zechariah 14:16-21.
These and yet other Scriptures describe the rule and reign of the Lord Jesus Christ in terms that best fit the premillennial view.
http://www.kneillfoster.com/articles/Premillennialism.html
Quote from: thinktank on November 27, 2011, 08:16:51 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 27, 2011, 08:01:49 AM
I already know that my offering of bewilderment will be not be recognized as worth and explanation, but I am totally at a loss as to what this post and the responses are saying. I maybe looked upon as a dolt and even ignorant or that my imagination is dulled to understanding to all the explanations of the OP. "I was changed into a spirit ghostly type being..." right there I am lost.
I unfortunately read, "23 minutes in Hell," and this dream seems so familar, almost like going the other way. I am not attempting to make light of the dream, yet from what is it espoused? The "rapture?"
In all honesty, many years ago when the Lord drew me into Pentecoste and speaking in tongues(as evidence of recieving the Holy Spirit) I had dreams such as this and listrened to others, and believed.
But there is strong meat, Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Ah Micah, bold as always :bigGrin: . If I may say, , what happened? why turn your back on the spirit. Perhaps if you were here many years ago you would have embraced the dream, but I guess that's speculative. Not to worry, maybe one day you will dream again and be what God called you to be, as God promised that in the last days old men shall dream visions and young men dreams. I hope God will reveal to you your great potential. God live.
"Perhaps if you were here many years ago you would have embraced the dream,..." TT
For a surety I don't understand, ' if you were here many years ago?' :dontknow:
I believe with my whole heart and being in the words of Joel 2:28 And it comes afterward, I shall pour out My spirit on all flesh; and
your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your elders shall dream dreams, your chosen ones shall see visions."I also reason that when I start off on the wrong foot, or begin to build and the first brick or board is not square or plumb, then what ever I do from that point on will not be right. I do not believe in a rapture, I believe that those who are hearing are being caught up now, I cannot understand, """I was changed into a spirit ghostly type being..." right there I am lost."" :sigh:
As well as, " As I thought these thoughts I began to slow down and felt heavier...." TT
I do understand this, :bigGrin: for many times in my walk "my" thoughts have made me heavy and my upward rise is slowed greatly, even all the way down and I have to pray through my weaknesses, and the Lord must get me started again correctly. When the Lord revealed to me the strength of the resurrection [to rise again or rising again] my walk has become much easier and lighter. I always thought that the resurrection was a one time thing, I know now that it is not, it is a RISING AGAIN. :dsunny:
What a Wonderful Lord, Mat 18:22 Jesus is saying to him, "I am not saying to you 'Till seven times,' but 'Till seventy times and seven,'" :happyclap: :happyclap:
This of course is only my opinion :HeartThrob: :icon_flower: :cloud9:
micah
"Perhaps if you were here many years ago you would have embraced the dream,..." TT
For a surety I don't understand, ' if you were here many years ago?'
TT
Once upon a time you said you had dreams and believed ,in such, as I presented here and embraced the gifts of the spirit such as tongues.
micah
I also reason that when I start off on the wrong foot, or begin to build and the first brick or board is not square or plumb, then what ever I do from that point on will not be right. I do not believe in a rapture, I believe that those who are hearing are being caught up now, I cannot understand, """I was changed into a spirit ghostly type being..." right there I am lost."
--------------------
TT
We all know your viewpoint concerning the spirit/ soul. Maybe you are correct in part, maybe only certain people continue to live after they die. Maybe most of humanity see themselves as dust, so to dust they return. But those who see themselves as spirit give it life and so live, so maybe those of other religions(those that emphasize spirit) continue to live as an antichrist unclean spirit, unwashed in the blood of the lamb, wanderers of the earth, lost. I think Taff said that death can live, if it desires.
----------
micah
As well as, " As I thought these thoughts I began to slow down and felt heavier...." TT
I do understand this, for many times in my walk "my" thoughts have made me heavy and my upward rise is slowed greatly, even all the way down and I have to pray through my weaknesses, and the Lord must get me started again correctly. When the Lord revealed to me the strength of the resurrection [to rise again or rising again] my walk has become much easier and lighter. I always thought that the resurrection was a one time thing, I know now that it is not, it is a RISING AGAIN.
What a Wonderful Lord, Mat 18:22 Jesus is saying to him, "I am not saying to you 'Till seven times,' but 'Till seventy times and seven,
TT
I see it as both. That we change from glory to glory, but yet the resurection does a quick work in our mortal bodies, that we become immortal in a twinkling of an eye, so that we may receive the things done in their bodies, whether they be good or evil. So the more good, the greater glory of the body.
If that is how you understand your dream, then so be it. May the Lord continue to bless you. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: thinktank on November 27, 2011, 10:24:27 PM
The rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished.
The millenium may not make sense to you at this time, but deleting verses out of the bible is not a good way of coming to the truth.
Peace.
Notice that the thousand years in Revelation 20:5 is called "the
first resurrection." This is how we should understand it, I think, in every instance in Chapter 20. Paul wrote:
Romans 6:3-6
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Here we have a
death, a
burial, and a
resurrection, as "newness of life" following one's
death is actually a kind of "resurrection," isn't it? The same is true in Revelation 20, except that John does not speak of burial. He speaks of "beheading," which is usually fatal. He speaks of a "first resurrection," and later a "second death." But all these must be figurative and spiritual.
When John speaks of "the rest of the dead," in verse 5, isn't this referring to those who have never heard or believed the Gospel? Jesus said to a man who wanted to join his ministry, but first wanted to see to his father's burial; "Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God." [Luke 9:60] Paul wrote, "But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth." [1 Timothy 5:6] In each case, "dead" is meant in a spiritual sense. Those who do not believe the Gospel, and follow Christ, are spiritually "dead." John refers to such, when he writes, "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." [Revelation 20:5] Of course I would never delete such a verse, as it is this verse that
defines an explains what John meant by "
a thousand years." And furthermore, there is something wonderful implied in the verse, which is, that the "rest of the dead," (most of humanity) will indeed "live again," and IMO we may quite reasonably infer they will live in the sense that those who reign with Christ are said to participate in the first resurrection, that is they will believe the Gospel and find salvation, during the time of the judgment, although it seems to be a time characterized by "great tribulation." [Revelation 7:14]
Doug
Quote from: Molly on November 27, 2011, 10:35:57 PM
III. Scripture and Premillennialism
Many sections of the Bible can be summoned to advance premillennialism. I include six of these passages here:
1) Revelation 20:1-6 affirms the concept of one thousand years six times, and it also affirms the rule and reign of a king, specifically Christ's rule. To overthrow or abandon premillennialism, Revelation chapter twenty must be attacked.
On the contrary, premillennialism is based upon a literal reading of the thousand years in Revelation 20, a number which is specifically identified as having a non-literal meaning, elsewhere in the New Testament, in 2 Peter 3:8. Without a literal take on the thousand years in Revelation 20, the theory of premillennialism falls to the ground.
Interpreting the
thousand years and other symbols in Revelation 20 from other Scriptures is
not an attack on Revelation 20; it is ridiculous to assert that it is!
Quote from: Molly on November 27, 2011, 10:35:57 PM
2) First Corinthians 15:23-28 references the coming of Jesus Christ and associates it with His rule and reign. This is a strong premillennial passage in that Jesus Christ is portrayed as the conquering monarch, clearly ruling and reigning. Amillennialism and postmillennialism do not fit this passage.
I don't see anything in 1 Corinthians 15:23-28 that would support K. Neill Foster's statement that this is a "a strong premillennial passage." There is no hint of the idea of a thousand year reign, in which the Jews are doted on by Gentiles.
1 Corinthians 15:23-28
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
The apostle Paul taught that Christ's coming will be for the judgment of the world. He did not say anything to suggest that a thousand year reign occurs between Christ's coming and the judgment.
Doug
Quote from: Molly on November 27, 2011, 10:35:57 PM
III. Scripture and Premillennialism
...
3) Daniel 7:13-14 describes the coming of the Son of Man in the clouds and His subsequent rule. All people, languages and people will serve Him. It sounds very much like Revelation 20:1-7. Premillennialism fits like a glove.
A table comparing several verses in Daniel 7 with Revelation 20:4-9 was presented in this post (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/book_revelation/rapture_dream_10137.msg132035.html#msg132035).
In Daniel 7, the little horn with "eyes like the eyes of a man" and a "mouth speaking great things" prevails against the saints, which is hardly compatible with the doctrine of a millennium. The horn's "eyes like the eyes of a man" picture a "human point of view," as opposed to a divine one.
Quote from: Molly on November 27, 2011, 10:35:57 PM
4) Isaiah 11:2-10 describes the wolf and the lamb dwelling together and a ruler's ensign which "the Gentiles [shall] seek." The ruler here is from "the root of Jesse" and again this scene from the prophet synchronizes with the New Testament passages on the millennium, Revelation 20 and First Corinthians 15.
Again, in the New Testament, men are represented by animals, in visions, and in prophecies. For example, in the vision Peter saw, described in Acts 10, a sheet descended from heaven, containing various animals, creeping things, and birds. Peter heard a voice telling him to kill and eat, but he refused, saying, "Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean." He was told: "What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common." From this experience Peter understood that he was not to call any
man "common or unclean." [vs. 28] The point is that to understand the vision he had to connect the animals and creatures with humans.
Similarly, in 2 Peter 2, Peter compared false teachers who would come into the church, to "natural brute beasts," and he cited a proverb against them: "The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."
In Isaiah 11:6-8, animals such as the wolf, lamb, leopard, goat, calf, lion, yearling, cow, bear, ox, cobra, and viper are mentioned. Natural enemies are to dwell in harmony. The image probably alludes to conditions in Eden. As in the New Testament where animals represent men, in the Church Jew and Gentile, rich and poor, bond and free become brethren. "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." [vs. 9]
The prophecy of Isaiah 11 is not about lions literally eating straw like an ox, etc. What would be the benefit of that? The real meaning is that human nature is to be changed; those who were warring against one another will be at peace.
Doug
I can not accept the view Jesus will return to Earth to perform the Last Judgement. In my opinion, there is no way Matthew 25 and Revelation 20 can be describing the same event. There are several discrepancies (<-- word?)
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/big_blocker_me_9293.msg116421.html#msg116421
Actually, as an atheist, I used Matthew 25 as a proof Bible contradicts itself. Later on I came to understand the Bible speaks of more than one judgement.
Quote from: Molly on November 27, 2011, 10:35:57 PM
...
5) Psalm 2:6-9 gives the description of a king on the holy hill of Zion. The uttermost parts are included, along with the heathen. He rules with a rod of iron. Again, a king ruling in a millennium-like ambiance is in view.
Here, IMO, Foster has ignored or misunderstood Isaiah's prophecy about mount Zion and Jerusalem, that says the mountain of the Lord's house will be established in "the tops of the mountains" and raised up "above the hills," [Isaiah 2:1-3] which I believe is fulfilled in the New Testament, where Jerusalem and mount Zion are depicted in
heaven. [Galatians 6:24; Hebrews 12:22; Revelation 21:10ff.] This must have occurred, I think, when Jesus ascended to heaven, Acts 1.
The New Testament says that Jesus rules over all things from heaven, having a "rod of iron." [Ephesians 1:20-22; Revelation 12:5] He said to his disciples, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." [Matthew 29:18]
Quote from: Molly on November 27, 2011, 10:35:57 PM
6) Other Scriptures which could be summoned to the premillennialist cause but upon which I will not comment include Isaiah 65:20, 25; Psalm 45:4; Ezekiel 37:27-28; Ezekiel chapters 40-48 (especially 43:19-27, 45:20-21), and Zechariah 14:16-21.
These and yet other Scriptures describe the rule and reign of the Lord Jesus Christ in terms that best fit the premillennial view.
http://www.kneillfoster.com/articles/Premillennialism.html
My comments under #4 in reply 79 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/book_revelation/rapture_dream_10137.msg132221.html#msg132221), on Isaiah 11:2-10, also apply to Isaiah 65:25, as these scriptures are similar.
Psalm 45:4 says, "And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things." I wonder how this Scripture is supposed to support the idea of an earthly millennium?
By citing Ezekiel 37:27-28, Foster seems to "shoot himself in the foot." These verses are applied to the
heavenly Jerusalem in Revelation 21:2-3, in the setting of the new heaven and the new earth, not the alleged millennium.
Ezekiel 37:27-28
My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
John cites from the above Scripture in Revelation 21:3, "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."
Ezekiel 43:19-27 describes animal sacrifices, types and shadows that have been abolished, now that the reality of the Gospel has appeared. This also applies to Ezekiel 45:20-21.
Hebrews 10:1
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
On Zechariah 14, see the following posts:
* Jerusalem in Zechariah 14:10 (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/11/30/2011/10/15/jerusalem-in-zechariah-1410/)
* Is Jerusalem in Daniel and Zechariah the heavenly city? (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/11/30/2011/01/20/is-jerusalem-the-heavenly-city/)
* William Kelly and the mount of Olives (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/11/30/2011/10/09/william-kelly-and-the-mount-of-olives/)
* All nations in Zechariah 14 (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/11/30/2011/01/22/all-nations-in-zechariah-14/)
* Zecharaiah and the assault on Jerusalem (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/11/30/2011/02/12/the-assault-on-jerusalem-in-zecharaiah/)
* The 70th week and the mount of Olives (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/11/30/2011/09/05/the-70th-week-and-the-mount-of-olives/)
To sum up, Foster's arguments from Scripture, by which he tries to support Premillennialism, seem rather feeble. It seems to be a passing fad, a doctrine of men, and a
tempest that has swept away many who are not grounded in the truth.
Doug
PREMILLENNIALISM
By Daymond Duck
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are three major views about how the Second Coming relates to the Millennium:
1) Premillennialism which is the belief that the Second Coming of Jesus will be BEFORE the Millennium (a literal 1,000 year reign of Jesus on earth based on Revelation 20:1-7).
2) Postmillenialism which is the belief that the Second Coming of Jesus will be AFTER the Millennium. Those who believe this way say the Millennium started with the first coming of Jesus and is going on today; that during this time Christians will preach the gospel, the world will get better and better, and most of those on earth will accept Jesus; then, AFTER many years of success in the Church, Jesus will come back to reign on earth over a converted world (this group teaches that the Millennium refers to a long period of time not necessarily a literal 1,000 years).
3) Amillennialism which means no Millennium. This group believes that Jesus is reigning spiritually today and there won't be a future literal reign of Jesus.
We believe Premillennialism is the right view for many reasons:
1) Isaiah prophesied the birth of Jesus (it was a literal birth) and that the government will be upon His shoulders (Isaiah 9:6).
2) The Bible prophesies an earthly reign or earthly government of Jesus (Jeremiah 23:5-6; Zechariah 14:9).
3) The Bible teaches that the believers who are killed during the Tribulation Period will reign on the earth in the future (Revelation 5:10). It teaches that these Tribulation Period saints will reign with Jesus for 1,000 years after Satan is seized, bound and chained (Revelation 20:1-4). Since Satan is seized at the Second Coming of Jesus, the 1,000 year reign of the Tribulation Period saints will be AFTER the Second Coming.
4) Since Satan will be bound, chained and cast into the Bottomless Pit for 1,000 years at the Second Coming (Revelation 20:2-3), the Millennium won't start until the Second Coming takes place.
5) In Daniel chapter 2, the Rock (Second Coming of Jesus) will destroy the final Gentile world kingdom BEFORE the Rock fills the whole earth (Jesus will return and destroy the world government of the Antichrist before He establishes the Millennial Kingdom).
6) Israel must complete all seventy weeks of her punishment BEFORE she stops rebelling against God and before the kingdom of everlasting righteousness is established (Daniel 9:24). Since the seventieth week will end with the Second Coming of Jesus, this means the Second Coming of Jesus will be BEFORE the Millennium.
7) Jesus will send forth His angels to remove the wicked from the earth at His Second Coming (Matthew 13:36-43; 47-51). Since the wicked are removed before the kingdom of everlasting righteousness is established, the Second Coming will be BEFORE the Millennium.
8) Jesus told Christians to watch for the Second Coming, but there would be no need to watch for the Second Coming if it is after the Church wins most of the world to Christ (Postmillennialism). No matter how long the Millennium is there is no need to watch for the Second Coming if the Church must convert the world first.
http://www.raptureready.com/featured/duck/dd9.html
Quote from: DougThe prophecy of Isaiah 11 is not about lions literally eating straw like an ox, etc. What would be the benefit of that? The real meaning is that human nature is to be changed; those who were warring against one another will be at peace.
The point is the peaceable kingdom would extend even to the animals. There will be no more killing. I believe I have every reason to look forward to this as a literal reality.
As such, this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled.
6The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
--Isa 11
I believe I have every reason to look forward to this as a literal reality
But isn't that exactly how "men" percieved the words of Jesus? He said he'd raise a temple back up in three days, they took him literally. He said beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, they took that literally . . .he said he would establish a kingdom and they took that literally.
And none of them got it right. What makes "this" or any other spiritual truth any different?
Quote from: Nathan on November 30, 2011, 05:52:10 PM
I believe I have every reason to look forward to this as a literal reality
But isn't that exactly how "men" percieved the words of Jesus? He said he'd raise a temple back up in three days, they took him literally. He said beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, they took that literally . . .he said he would establish a kingdom and they took that literally.
And none of them got it right. What makes "this" or any other spiritual truth any different?
Jesus did raise the temple in three days. You can take that literally. They just didn't understand what temple he was talking about.
But this is prophecy. Prophecy will be fulfilled, and prophecy is always literal. Otherwise, do we believe in a literal Jesus?
He will establish a kingdom that will fill the world --at the second coming.
Quote from: Molly on November 30, 2011, 05:38:33 PM
Quote from: DougThe prophecy of Isaiah 11 is not about lions literally eating straw like an ox, etc. What would be the benefit of that? The real meaning is that human nature is to be changed; those who were warring against one another will be at peace.
The point is the peaceable kingdom would extend even to the animals. There will be no more killing. I believe I have every reason to look forward to this as a literal reality.
As such, this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled.
Umm.. what would happen to rat populations?
What would the raptors eat? Would they munch on straw too?
How about fish? Will lures and worms be any use for fishermen? Are sharks going to cease chasing smaller fishes?
Although it says lions will eat straw like an ox, they don't have teeth that would enable them to chew that sort of food. The ox (I am sure) has teeth that are adapted to chewing vegetable matter, whereas lions do not. Their teeth are adapted to a
carnivorous diet. And cattle also have stomachs that are adapted to digesting grass etc. Lions do not.
So, a spiritual meaning and interpretation of Isaiah's prophecy is far superior to a literal one, as it avoids these difficulties, and many others besides.
Quote from: Molly on November 30, 2011, 05:38:33 PM
6The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
--Isa 11
Jesus is called a Lamb, and his followers are called "sheep." Jesus also claimed to be the "shepherd" of the sheep.
A "wolf" is sometimes identified as a false teacher, a predator, one who scatters the "sheep."
John 10:12
But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
Here, wolf and sheep are metaphors; in Isaiah's prophecy also, wolf and lamb are metaphors. There will come a time when false teachers and the 'lambs' and sheep who were deceived by them will be at peace.
Doug
I have no doubt that much benefit can be had by reading the Bible spiritually.
But a literal reading has its own spiritual benefits. We expect a hugh difference between a fallen and a restored world.
What could be more illustrative of that than the predator and the prey bonding in love within the animal kingdom?
Today we are beginning to see examples of that happening here and there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZw-1BfHFKM&feature=related
Quote from: Molly on November 30, 2011, 06:18:42 PM
But this is prophecy. Prophecy will be fulfilled, and prophecy is always literal. Otherwise, do we believe in a literal Jesus?
This is contrary to what the prophet Hosea wrote:
Hosea 12:10
I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.
And, it is very curious to see people like Dr. Foster quoting "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain" and applying it to the millennium, and at the same time, claiming that Ezekiel 43:19-27 & Ezekiel 45:20-21 mean that temple sacrifices and killing of animals will be reestablished in the temple worship at Jerusalem. Don't you think that these things contradict?
Doug
Quote from: Molly on November 30, 2011, 06:37:59 PM
I have no doubt that much benefit can be had by reading the Bible spiritually.
But a literal reading has its own spiritual benefits. We expect a hugh difference between a fallen and a restored world.
What could be more illustrative of that than the predator and the prey bonding in love within the animal kingdom?
I think I would prefer a world in which birds and bats ate up lots of mosquitoes.
Doug
Quote from: Doug on November 30, 2011, 06:39:08 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 30, 2011, 06:18:42 PM
But this is prophecy. Prophecy will be fulfilled, and prophecy is always literal. Otherwise, do we believe in a literal Jesus?
This is contrary to what the prophet Hosea wrote:
Hosea 12:10
I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.
And, it is very curious to see people like Dr. Foster quoting "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain" and applying it to the millennium, and at the same time, claiming that Ezekiel 43:19-27 & Ezekiel 45:20-21 mean that temple sacrifices and killing of animals will be reestablished in the temple worship at Jerusalem. Don't you think that these things contradict?
Doug
I spoke to the prophets, gave them many visions and told parables through them." [Hos 12:10]
Although the prophets may be receiving their information through visions and parables, what they are prophesying about is really--literally-- going to happen.
Quote from: Molly on November 30, 2011, 07:07:59 PM
Quote from: Doug on November 30, 2011, 06:39:08 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 30, 2011, 06:18:42 PM
But this is prophecy. Prophecy will be fulfilled, and prophecy is always literal. Otherwise, do we believe in a literal Jesus?
This is contrary to what the prophet Hosea wrote:
Hosea 12:10
I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.
And, it is very curious to see people like Dr. Foster quoting "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain" and applying it to the millennium, and at the same time, claiming that Ezekiel 43:19-27 & Ezekiel 45:20-21 mean that temple sacrifices and killing of animals will be reestablished in the temple worship at Jerusalem. Don't you think that these things contradict?
Doug
I spoke to the prophets, gave them many visions and told parables through them." [Hos 12:10]
Although the prophets may be receiving their information through visions and parables, what they are prophesying about is really--literally-- going to happen.
Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
Doug
Quote from: Molly on November 30, 2011, 05:23:53 PM
PREMILLENNIALISM
By Daymond Duck
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are three major views about how the Second Coming relates to the Millennium:
1) Premillennialism which is the belief that the Second Coming of Jesus will be BEFORE the Millennium (a literal 1,000 year reign of Jesus on earth based on Revelation 20:1-7).
2) Postmillenialism which is the belief that the Second Coming of Jesus will be AFTER the Millennium. Those who believe this way say the Millennium started with the first coming of Jesus and is going on today; that during this time Christians will preach the gospel, the world will get better and better, and most of those on earth will accept Jesus; then, AFTER many years of success in the Church, Jesus will come back to reign on earth over a converted world (this group teaches that the Millennium refers to a long period of time not necessarily a literal 1,000 years).
3) Amillennialism which means no Millennium. This group believes that Jesus is reigning spiritually today and there won't be a future literal reign of Jesus.
We believe Premillennialism is the right view for many reasons:
1) Isaiah prophesied the birth of Jesus (it was a literal birth) and that the government will be upon His shoulders (Isaiah 9:6).
2) The Bible prophesies an earthly reign or earthly government of Jesus (Jeremiah 23:5-6; Zechariah 14:9).
3) The Bible teaches that the believers who are killed during the Tribulation Period will reign on the earth in the future (Revelation 5:10). It teaches that these Tribulation Period saints will reign with Jesus for 1,000 years after Satan is seized, bound and chained (Revelation 20:1-4). Since Satan is seized at the Second Coming of Jesus, the 1,000 year reign of the Tribulation Period saints will be AFTER the Second Coming.
4) Since Satan will be bound, chained and cast into the Bottomless Pit for 1,000 years at the Second Coming (Revelation 20:2-3), the Millennium won't start until the Second Coming takes place.
5) In Daniel chapter 2, the Rock (Second Coming of Jesus) will destroy the final Gentile world kingdom BEFORE the Rock fills the whole earth (Jesus will return and destroy the world government of the Antichrist before He establishes the Millennial Kingdom).
6) Israel must complete all seventy weeks of her punishment BEFORE she stops rebelling against God and before the kingdom of everlasting righteousness is established (Daniel 9:24). Since the seventieth week will end with the Second Coming of Jesus, this means the Second Coming of Jesus will be BEFORE the Millennium.
7) Jesus will send forth His angels to remove the wicked from the earth at His Second Coming (Matthew 13:36-43; 47-51). Since the wicked are removed before the kingdom of everlasting righteousness is established, the Second Coming will be BEFORE the Millennium.
8) Jesus told Christians to watch for the Second Coming, but there would be no need to watch for the Second Coming if it is after the Church wins most of the world to Christ (Postmillennialism). No matter how long the Millennium is there is no need to watch for the Second Coming if the Church must convert the world first.
http://www.raptureready.com/featured/duck/dd9.html
I found this verse which remarkebly parallels the rapture
Joshua 6:5
And it shall come to pass, that when they make a long blast with the ram's horn, and when ye hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city shall fall down flat, and the people shall ascend up every man straight before him.
I wonder if this is a prophetic clue that the rapture will take place after the wailing wall collapses.
:icon_flower:
:cloud9: What if the 1000 years is not a literal time, but a lack of time, ie. symbolic of His Spirit in which there is no time, because it's always "now". My :2c:
Quote from: Cardinal on December 01, 2011, 03:42:03 PM
:cloud9: What if the 1000 years is not a literal time, but a lack of time, ie. symbolic of His Spirit in which there is no time, because it's always "now". My :2c:
Something I could see to support that is that the Most Holy Place in the Tabernacle in the wilderness was 10 cubits by 10 cubits by 10 cubits.
10x10x10=1000
Always in the presence of God, in the Most Holy Place.
:cloud9: EXACTLY so..... :thumbsup: God told Adam in the DAY that he ate of the tree, he would surely die. And die he did, just short of the 1000 year day. Otherwise he would have remained IN HIS PRESENCE.
Christ IS the DAY of the Lord (God), no part darkness, the "day" of His rest, that we are to enter into. My :2c:
:cloud9: PS. What his curse involved after the fall, had to do with being lowered into SEASONS = time. Being in His presence = time is no more. Anyone who has been caught up in the Spirit, speaks of it seeming like a few seconds, but in actual time, it may have been hours. Time slows down the manifestation of Spirit, until it's visible. That is the reason creation is visible in the first place. My :2c:
Quote from: Molly on December 01, 2011, 04:01:40 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on December 01, 2011, 03:42:03 PM
:cloud9: What if the 1000 years is not a literal time, but a lack of time, ie. symbolic of His Spirit in which there is no time, because it's always "now". My :2c:
Something I could see to support that is that the Most Holy Place in the Tabernacle in the wilderness was 10 cubits by 10 cubits by 10 cubits.
10x10x10=1000
Always in the presence of God, in the Most Holy Place.
And if you scale up the Holies of Holies to New Jerusalems size the Temple fits exactly ïnside the globe/earth :winkgrin:
Quote from: Molly on December 01, 2011, 04:01:40 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on December 01, 2011, 03:42:03 PM
:cloud9: What if the 1000 years is not a literal time, but a lack of time, ie. symbolic of His Spirit in which there is no time, because it's always "now". My :2c:
Something I could see to support that is that the Most Holy Place in the Tabernacle in the wilderness was 10 cubits by 10 cubits by 10 cubits.
10x10x10=1000
Always in the presence of God, in the Most Holy Place.
Those who believe, Paul said, have been raised up to sit "in heavenly places," along with all the saints. In Revelation, John shows that they are in the throne of Christ.
Ephesians 2:4-6
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Jesus promised the saints who overcome, that they will sit with him in his throne. This is a heavenly throne.
Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Earth days, earth months, and earth years do not apply to the throne of Jesus, or to spiritual things. God's way of reckoning time is not constrained by the earth's orbit or period of rotation, or the phases of the moon. And so, the thousand years that the saints reign with Christ is not defined by earthly units. IMO, the number should be filtered through 2 Peter 3:8.
The shape of the heavenly Jerusalem is as a cube, and this seems to link it to the dimensions and design of the holy of holies of the tabernacle in the wilderness.
The dimensions of the city, 12,000 furlongs each side, are to be understood spiritually, rather than literally. When John reported the dimensions of the wall, he said it was 144 cubits. He did not say whether this was its height, or width. Both are need for a literal wall, and the length could be specified too. But only one dimension was supplied. It is clearly a symbolic number, 12 x 12. And John indicated these were "angelic" cubits. Who can say what an "angelic" cubit is? Is it smaller than 18 inches, or larger? If it was the same as a regular cubit, why specify that it was the cubit of an angel?
John's mention of an "angelic" cubit indicates the units and numbers are spiritual; space and time are different for spiritual things. If taken "literally," or in terms of natural units a wall of 144 cubits around a city 12,000 furlongs high seems ridiculously out of proportion; the city would be about 36,666 times higher than its wall!
Just as linear dimensions are meant to be understood symbolically, when considering the holy city, the times that apply to its construction are spiritual and symbolic; it is a city built by God, and without hands. I suggest the thousand years is a number that applies to the
components of the city: the individual saints of whom it consists.
Doug
:cloud9: What if an "angelic cubit" speaks of the stature of the Christ in His messengers/angels, which we are? Twelve such cubits being the stature of the 12 heads of the tribes/12 apostles, whose natures being formed in us fulfill the fullness of Christ. My :2c:
Quote from: Molly on December 01, 2011, 04:01:40 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on December 01, 2011, 03:42:03 PM
:cloud9: What if the 1000 years is not a literal time, but a lack of time, ie. symbolic of His Spirit in which there is no time, because it's always "now". My :2c:
Something I could see to support that is that the Most Holy Place in the Tabernacle in the wilderness was 10 cubits by 10 cubits by 10 cubits.
10x10x10=1000
Always in the presence of God, in the Most Holy Place.
http://www.1260-1290-days-bible-prophecy.org/Tabernacle/tabernacle_temple_of_time.htm
:cloud9: I'll read the link when I have more time.....just a thought, though......if you were God trying to express/describe soemthing spiritual in a literal natural realm, a measurement of something immeasurable, how would you do it? Food for thmeght..... :winkgrin:
.....angelic cubic....Christ...the breadth,width and depth...Ephesians 3;18...and to know this love that surpasses knowledge[tokogae]
enlarging the heart....to the salvation of all,with complete victory over every enemy..even death...in Christ
love grows....until the whole measure is leavened.
Quote from: Molly on November 30, 2011, 05:23:53 PM
PREMILLENNIALISM
By Daymond Duck
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are three major views about how the Second Coming relates to the Millennium:
1) Premillennialism
2) Postmillenialism
3) Amillennialism
What are these three major views? Could they be merely the opinions of Gentiles who trample the holy city?
Jesus said, "they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." [Luke 21:24] If he referred to the Church, which is the real holy city, of which the earthly Jerusalem was a type and a shadow, the saints are scattered among tens of thousands of sects and denominations where they are captive to all sorts of different interpretations. This may be portrayed in Zechariah 14:1-3, where the armies of the nations come against the holy city, and half of the city goes into captivity. The "spoil" divided in the midst, includes the promises of God that belong to the Church.
If the holy city is seen to be the church, the heavenly Jerusalem, Premillennialism, Postmillenialism, and Amillennialism may be identified with some of the armies that lay siege to the city. They are views that tend to divide and separate the saints from each other, and scatter the flock.
Besides those views, another interpretation says that the thousand years of Revelation 20 is symbolic, and represents a portion of the lifetimes of individual Christians; the time for which they reign with Christ, in the present age. So the thousand years represents an individual and personal period; a stage in the development of a Christian, prior to the
eternal state. On the other hand, each of the three views listed above says the thousand years is universal.
Quote from: Molly on November 30, 2011, 05:23:53 PM
We believe Premillennialism is the right view for many reasons:
1) Isaiah prophesied the birth of Jesus (it was a literal birth) and that the government will be upon His shoulders (Isaiah 9:6).
Jesus reigns on the throne of his father David. He said, in his message to the church at Philadelphia, "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth" [Revelation 3:7]
The key of David represents authority over Jerusalem, and Israel. Only those whose minds Christ has opened, can really understand that he reigns on the throne of David as king, and is Lord over all. Those who are figuratively
beheaded and who do not worship the beast, reign with him.
Quote from: Molly on November 30, 2011, 05:23:53 PM
2) The Bible prophesies an earthly reign or earthly government of Jesus (Jeremiah 23:5-6; Zechariah 14:9).
King Nebuchadnezzar dreamed, and told his dream to Daniel. He said:
Daniel 4:16-17
I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;
He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches:
Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts in the grass of the earth:
Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.
This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
The lesson that God taught to Nebuchadnezzar was that "the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men."
Thus, having ascended to heaven, to God's throne, Jesus reigns in the throne of God, and over the nations. He said to his disciples, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." [Matthew 28:18]
Paul said of Jesus:
Colossians 1:15-17
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Premillennialism, on the other hand, calls into question the authority of Christ.
Doug
Quote from: Cardinal on December 01, 2011, 04:06:26 PM
:cloud9: EXACTLY so..... :thumbsup: God told Adam in the DAY that he ate of the tree, he would surely die. And die he did, just short of the 1000 year day. Otherwise he would have remained IN HIS PRESENCE.
Christ IS the DAY of the Lord (God), no part darkness, the "day" of His rest, that we are to enter into. My :2c:
A shadow of the 1000 year sabbath rest to come. :icon_flower:
Quote from: Molly on November 30, 2011, 05:23:53 PM
3) The Bible teaches that the believers who are killed during the Tribulation Period will reign on the earth in the future (Revelation 5:10).
Revelation 5:7-10
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
This is referring to the four beasts, and 24 elders.
It is quite a stretch, to conclude that Revelation 5:10 refers to believers who killed during the future Tribulation that is imagined by the Premillennialists and dispensationalists. But, this does provide an example of the sort of flawed "scholarship" that many Premillennialists are guilty of. IMO it is shameful. Both the articles intended to support Premillennialism actually seem to discredit that position, as several of the Scripture references cited by the authors do not support what they claimed.
Quote from: Molly on November 30, 2011, 05:23:53 PM
It teaches that these Tribulation Period saints will reign with Jesus for 1,000 years after Satan is seized, bound and chained (Revelation 20:1-4).
Another questionable statement; in fact, only the ones who are
beheaded reign with Christ; not people devoured by lions in the arena, not the people who died by crucifixion, or torture, or who were burned. Not the people who died of disease, or famine, or old age. That is what John says, literally; nothing about "Tribulation Period saints." Unless... they were also "beheaded" in the sense John meant, which could apply to any of these.
To be
beheaded should be interpreted spiritually, as referring to someone who "mortifies the deeds of the body" as Paul said; "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." [Romans 8:13] "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:" [Colossians 3:5]
Both these examples, of course, are figurative; how much more John's use of "beheaded" in Revelation 20:4 where he refers to it in a prophecy!
Paul also said, "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." [Romans 6:6] If we are all in a sense "crucified," why not also understand "beheaded" as a metaphor with a spiritual meaning? Paul said,
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Was Paul literally crucified? No, it is figurative.
The reign of the saints who are figuratively "beheaded" corresponds to the time when Satan is bound; this must be something personal and individual, even as it was for Jesus.
Doug
Quote from: thinktank on December 01, 2011, 08:01:18 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on December 01, 2011, 04:06:26 PM
:cloud9: EXACTLY so..... :thumbsup: God told Adam in the DAY that he ate of the tree, he would surely die. And die he did, just short of the 1000 year day. Otherwise he would have remained IN HIS PRESENCE.
Christ IS the DAY of the Lord (God), no part darkness, the "day" of His rest, that we are to enter into. My :2c:
A shadow of the 1000 year sabbath rest to come. :icon_flower:
:cloud9: But here's the rub.....if we enter into Him, then we've entered into that rest. As He said, I AM the resurrection. How much or how little seems to come to a matter of how developed our faith is. My :2c:
Quote from: Cardinal on December 01, 2011, 10:28:17 PM
Quote from: thinktank on December 01, 2011, 08:01:18 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on December 01, 2011, 04:06:26 PM
:cloud9: EXACTLY so..... :thumbsup: God told Adam in the DAY that he ate of the tree, he would surely die. And die he did, just short of the 1000 year day. Otherwise he would have remained IN HIS PRESENCE.
Christ IS the DAY of the Lord (God), no part darkness, the "day" of His rest, that we are to enter into. My :2c:
A shadow of the 1000 year sabbath rest to come. :icon_flower:
:cloud9: But here's the rub.....if we enter into Him, then we've entered into that rest. As He said, I AM the resurrection. How much or how little seems to come to a matter of how developed our faith is. My :2c:
But the best wine is saved for last
Mark 14:25
Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.
Amos 9:14
And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
Quote from: Molly on November 30, 2011, 05:23:53 PM
PREMILLENNIALISM
By Daymond Duck
...
4) Since Satan will be bound, chained and cast into the Bottomless Pit for 1,000 years at the Second Coming (Revelation 20:2-3), the Millennium won't start until the Second Coming takes place.
Neither the article by Daymond Duck nor the previous one posted by Molly, that was written by K. Neill Foster, an evangelist in the Christian and Missionary Alliance, make any mention of the rebellion at the end of the thousand years which John identifies with Gog and Magog, by deceived people who come against the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, which is an obvious reference to the Church.
Are we to imagine that deceived people on earth will assault the saints who possess immortality who reign in the Millennium? They do not say.
When John refers to the thousand years, it is associated with the period for which the
beheaded saints who do not worship the beast reign with Christ. It is also the time when Satan is bound in the bottomless pit. John mentions the bottomless pit in chapter 9:1-2, where smoke like the smoke of a great furnace comes from the bottomless pit, and in vs. 11, the king of the horrid scorpion-locusts is the "angel" of the bottomless pit, who most consider to be Satan.
In Revelation 11:7, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit makes war with the two witnesses and kills them. In Revelation 17:8, "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition." In Revelation 20:3 Satan is bound by an angel who came down from heaven, and cast into the bottomless pit.
The last reference speaks of Satan being cast
into the bottomless pit; the previous ones are about the beast ascending
out of the pit. The beast who ascends from the pit in Revelation 11:7 and 17:8 is Satan, identified with the serpent in Revelation 20:2. He was cast
into the pit, before he
ascended out of it. Jesus referred to binding the
strong man, when the scribes accused him of casting out demons by Beelzebub or Satan. [Mark 3:22-27] The "strong man" alludes to Satan, and his being bound relates to Revelation 20:1-2, where Satan is bound with a great chain by an angel from heaven.
While Jesus described Satan being bound, and implied that he had "bound the strong man," and said that he saw him fall from heaven like lightning, [Luke 10:18] these are things that were true for him personally. In the rest of the world, Satan continued to function as usual.
Evidently, the binding of Satan and his being cast out of heaven applied to Jesus, and to his disciples, on a personal and individual level. Note that Satan still entered into Judas, when he betrayed Jesus to the Jews. [Luke 22:3] Satan also influenced Ananias, when he lied to the apostle Peter. [Acts 5:3] Was Satan bound, for Ananias, when be believed the gospel? I think so. But Ananias "loosed" Satan from the pit, and allowed him to ascend to heaven, in his mind, to the place of God, and Ananias followed Satan when he lied to Peter.
Paul spoke of delivering certain people unto Satan.
1 Timothy 1:19-20
Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
The point is that for Paul, Satan was bound, but he was loosed for Hymenaeus and Alexander who were "delivered unto Satan." The status of Satan must be something that applies on an individual level. This was true for Jesus, Peter, and Paul. And I believe that it is what John describes in Revelation 20, where he describes the binding of Satan.
When Satan is "loosed a little season" at the end of the thousand years, this also applies on an individual level. For those who remain faithful, he is never loosed. It only applies to those for whom the thousand years come to an end. This "thousand years" is an expression that we would normally take to indicate far more than a normal life span, yet in Genesis, there are many names of people who are said to have lived almost that long. None of the lifetimes exceeded a thousand years. For a Christian, who reigns with Christ, for whom Satan is bound, his life here in the earth is a foretaste and a prelude for the eternal future state. A thousand years is tiny compared to eternity.
In Scripture, a thousand years is also related to a portion of a human lifetime.
Ecclesiastes 6:6
Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?
For the Psalmist, a thousand years is identified with "yesterday when it is past."
Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
This is of special interest to Christians, as once we are given immortality, the whole of our present lives will seem like "yesterday when it is past." I suggest this meaning fits the expression "a thousand years" better than the idea promoted by Duck and Foster, that it means a future Millennium that ends in worldwide rebellion.
Why do those writers avoid mention of the Gog and Magog invasion at the end of the thousand years? Their list of arguments supporting premillennialism is partial and therefore deceptive. They select portions of what John wrote, avoiding the rest. They also ignore the fact that John specified only those who are "beheaded" as those who reign with Christ. He did not say "martyrs." He did not mean martyrs. He meant "beheaded" in a spiritual sense; equivalent to a "circumcised heart." Moses said, "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked." [Deuteronomy 10:16]
Paul said,
Romans 2:28-29
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
He identified believers of all nationalities with the true circumcision.
Philippians 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
He said it is a circumcision "made without hands."
Colossians 2:11
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
The
beheading that John describes is spiritual or metaphorical, like the circumcision that Paul refers to. The thousand years is symbolic, and applies to every believer on a personal and individual level. Revelation 20:1-3 does
not support the idea of a future Millennium that ends in general rebellion of humans all over the earth.
Doug
Nice post, Doug. Very well put together and presented.
But, why can't it be both?
We understand that the Christ is being birthed in us, as we grow up into him in all things.
But, that doesn't negate the fact that 2000 years ago a real child was born who is our Savior and Lord.
For to you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord. [Lk 2:11]
Quote from: Molly on December 02, 2011, 04:44:50 PM
Nice post, Doug. Very well put together and presented.
But, why can't it be both?
Thanks, Molly. The big problem with a literal Millennium, is that it ends in general rebellion. This is inconsistent with what is said of the world's future, and the time of "restitution of all things." That phrase, "restitution of all things," implies that there will be no more deception, no more general rebellion. Think about it; when the saints are immortal, reigning on the earth, how can deceived nations from all over the earth gather to attack them? That only makes sense in the present world. Even then, it applies spiritually. The weapons are primitive. And the destruction that comes upon them makes little sense, if taken literally. How can birds and beasts eat their corpses, which generate a great stench, and drink their blood, if they are all buried in the valley of Hamongog? [Ez. 39:11] Why are horses and chariots on the menu? :Sparkletooth:
And, before all this, they are rained on with "overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone." They fight themselves, "I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother" [Ez. 38:21].
And all this, it is claimed, if it is the same event that John describes, happens at the end of the thousand year reign, when "they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." [Isa. 2:4] Of course, the ideas contradict.
The idea of a thousand year earthly reign, before the judgment, contradicts a number of scriptures.
Hebrews 9:27-28
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
It does not say: "as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the
thousand year reign, followed by the judgment."
At the seventh trumpet, we read:
Revelation 11:17-18
Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
The idea of a general rebellion a thousand years after this, seems too much of a stretch; it boggles the mind!
Doug
I see the re-emergence os satan out of the abyss as the 'falling away' prophesied about[turned aside from doctrines of demons]
I see the 'wrath of God' or eaonian punishment as while in flesh[and alienated from God,enemies in our mind to Him]
I perceive... the not being forgiven in this age or the next..referring to refusing of Jesus Christ under law covenant[tokogae] of which law covenant was to lead to..
and the next age[grace TOL renewl,born from above in this time in flesh
I see the harvest as wrath and destruction of all evil seed permanantly and good seed gathered[fire come down and destroyed those that encircled the camp]
then the Holy city coming down to new earth=permant restoration of all for eternity
However you see it, THIS will be a reality:
They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.[Isa 11:9]
Amen!
Quote from: Molly on December 02, 2011, 06:10:00 PM
However you see it, THIS will be a reality:
They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.[Isa 11:9]
In Revelation 20:7-9, John says:
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
The fire coming down from God is not literal fire; the word of God is called fire, in several scriptures.
Jeremiah 23:29
Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
Jeremiah 5:14
Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.
Fire from heaven falls upon those who hurt the two witnesses:
Revelation 11:4-6
These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
The prophecy of Isaiah about the knowledge of the Lord filling the earth as waters cover the sea, combined with Jeremiah's metaphor of the word of God being a fire, leads naturally to the concept of a "lake of fire."
And the lake of fire is mentioned in Rev. 20:10, after the destruction of the hordes of Gog and Magog. It is "fire" for those who don't know God, but those reigning with Christ are not hurt by it. [vs. 6]
Doug
Quote from: Molly on November 30, 2011, 05:23:53 PM
PREMILLENNIALISM
By Daymond Duck
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...
5) In Daniel chapter 2, the Rock (Second Coming of Jesus) will destroy the final Gentile world kingdom BEFORE the Rock fills the whole earth (Jesus will return and destroy the world government of the Antichrist before He establishes the Millennial Kingdom).
This argument begs the question; Duck assumes what he attempts to prove. Furthermore, Duck misrepresents the prophecy of Daniel 2. Here, the stone was cut out without hands smote the image upon his feet. In the days of the fourth kingdom or empire, that consists of iron and clay, God sets up his kingdom. This fourth kingdom is identified with the Roman empire by most commentators.
Daniel 2:42-43
And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
The words "in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom" clearly show that Christ's kingdom is
contemporary with those kings; it has existed since the day of Pentecost after his resurrection. That is what Peter meant, when he said to the Jews, "God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ." [Acts 2:36]
Quote from: Molly on November 30, 2011, 05:23:53 PM
6) Israel must complete all seventy weeks of her punishment BEFORE she stops rebelling against God and before the kingdom of everlasting righteousness is established (Daniel 9:24). Since the seventieth week will end with the Second Coming of Jesus, this means the Second Coming of Jesus will be BEFORE the Millennium.
The "punishment" referred to probably alludes to Leviticus 26, which specifies four periods of seven times of punishment under the Old Covenant. In the exile in Babylon, Daniel said the curse of the law of Moses had been poured out. Thus, the 70 years of exile in Babylon can be identified with the first of the four periods of seven times in Leviticus 26. The remaining three periods of seven times can be identified with the three sections of the seventy weeks, each of which is seven times, where "times" takes different units. In the first section of seven weeks, the seven times are seven weeks of leap years of 13 months, or 49 leap years. This spans 133 years. In the second section, the times are 62 years each, or 62 sabbatical cycles of seven years, which are equivalent. These span 434 years. Together the first two sections add up to 567 years, which is the interval between the decree of Cyrus, 538 BC, and the ministry of Jesus, 28 AD.
The final week includes the ministry of Jesus as the first half week, and the last half week, the time, times and a half, is the whole age of the church. Jesus confirms his covenant with many for the entire 70th week. Below is a graphic illustrating this view of the 70 weeks.
(http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/D70/timeline3.png)
The covenant includes the promise of a kingdom, [James 2:5] and that would seem to imply that the thousand years when the saints who are beheaded reign with Christ must be included in the last week. Daniel describes Christ's reign as contemporary with the little horn of the fourth beast in chapter 7.
Daniel 7:9-10
I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
When does this fiery stream proceed from before the throne? For the whole church age. Jesus said, "I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?" [Luke 12:49]
Daniel 7:13-14
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Christ's kingdom is eternal, but in the church age, individuals of every age reign with him, for a portion of their lives, which is a foretaste and an "earnest" of their eternal inheritance. Thus it is represented by the symbolic number, a thousand years. It signifies completeness, and a thousand is also associated with the dimensions of the holy city; 12,000 are sealed from each tribe; the width, breadth and height are 12,000 furlongs, etc. These numbers are symbolic, as they apply to a holy, spiritual, eternal city. [Hebrews 13:14]
Doug
:thumbsup:
Doug,
538BC+49 isn't 405BC
??
BTW what's your source for the 538 BC date?
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 03, 2011, 08:52:42 PM
Doug,
538BC+49 isn't 405BC
??
In my post, I have used leap years, for determining the length of the first section of the 70 weeks. These are years with 13 months in the Babylonian (and Jewish) calendars. The Babylonians determined that there were 235 synodic months in 19 years. That is, in 19 years, there are 12 regular years of 12 months, and 7 leap years with 13 months. Counting only the years with 13 months, seven weeks of years of 13 months is 19 x 7 = 133 years. Thus, if weeks of leap years are the correct units for the first section, 49 leap years spans 133 years, and the first section of the 70 weeks ends in 405 BC.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 03, 2011, 08:52:42 PM
BTW what's your source for the 538 BC date?
The consensus of scholars is that the fall of Babylon was 539 BC; 538 is in the first year of Cyrus. Daniel gave the first year of Darius as the year of his vision in chapter 9. This Darius was identified as Cyrus by OT scholar D. J. Wiseman. One of his arguments was based on the correspondence of their ages. Cyrus is thought to have been born in 600 BC. Daniel gave the age of Darius when he became king as 62, which is very close to the age of Cyrus, as determined by the historians and scholars. 62 years is the unit of "times" in the second section of the 70 weeks. See this article (http://tinyurl.com/7c656cx).
For the seventieth week, note that the part of it that followed the resurrection of Jesus applies not to the earthly Jerusalem, but the heavenly one, and earth days, earth months, and earth years do not measure time for things of a heavenly and spiritual nature; the "time, times and a half" and the numbers associated with it are not natural days or years, but symbolic, as they apply to the heavenly Jerusalem and the age of the church, or portions of it.
Doug
Doug, if it's all spiritual metaphor why are you counting real weeks?
Quote from: Molly on December 03, 2011, 10:49:25 PM
Doug, if it's all spiritual metaphor why are you counting real weeks?
Part of the 70 weeks prophecy applies to the earthly city of Jerusalem, and the units are in terms of real earth time, for that portion. Units may vary in the various sections, or else, why have three sections? Why not say, sixty and nine weeks?
I suggest they are weeks of leap years in the first section, and 62 sabbatical cycles, of 7 years, for the second, which is the same as seven
times where
times are 62 years in length. This works out correctly to the time of Jesus, as I showed earlier.
Isaiah 2:1-3, which applies to mount Zion and Jerusalem, says "the mountain of the Lord's house" will be established in the tops of the mountains and established above the hills, and that happened, I think, when Jesus ascended to heaven. After that, the units of time that apply to it are no longer earth days, earth months, or earth years. They are symbolic, as Jerusalem was raised up, and became a heavenly city, while the earthly one was identified with Hagar the Egyptian, and Sinai, a mountain in Arabia, Paul says. [Galatians 4:25-26] Hagar was cast out of Abraham's household.
The part of the 70 weeks prophecy for which the time units are not in terms of real earth days, earth months, earth years, etc., is the last half of the 70th week, which is also the "time, times and a half," a symbolic period, a spiritual half week, which completes the week in which Jesus confirms his covenant with his saints. The last half week spans the whole age of the church.
The New Testament depicts Jerusalem as raised up to heaven, which fulfills Isaiah's prophecy, and also one in Zechariah 14:10, that says it would be raised up, and the surrounding country would become a plain. The earth movements here are not literal, but have to be interpreted spiritually; attempts to say they are literal lead to contradictions. For example, several scriptures speak of the "everlasting hills." How can they be everlasting, if all the territory around Jerusalem literally becomes a plain?
Doug
Not saying there are no "spiritual weeks" but the end of the 70th week, 3.5 years after crucifixion, marks the start of the Gospel to the Gentiles I think.
Quote from: Molly on December 03, 2011, 10:49:25 PM
Doug, if it's all spiritual metaphor why are you counting real weeks?
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Doug on December 03, 2011, 10:08:16 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 03, 2011, 08:52:42 PM
Doug,
538BC+49 isn't 405BC
??
Thus, if weeks of leap years are the correct units for the first section, 49 leap years spans 133 years, and the first section of the 70 weeks ends in 405 BC.
Understood.
That would make Him 32 years old at the start of His ministry in 30AD. That's not "about 30".
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 03, 2011, 11:55:33 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 03, 2011, 10:49:25 PM
Doug, if it's all spiritual metaphor why are you counting real weeks?
:thumbsup:
Lest some person reading this get a false impression, I did not claim "It's all a spiritual metaphor," whatever that might mean. But I have supported the idea that human units such as cubits, and furlongs, in Revelation 21, used to give the dimensions of the heavenly Jerusalem, have to be understood figuratively and spiritually, and John says that the cubits, that apply to the wall, are cubits of an angel, and I take this to mean that they are not meant literally, but are figurative and have to be understood as having some spiritual meaning. And I believe the same applies to
time units that apply to the heavenly city, such as the 1,260 days, the 1,290 days, the 1,335 days, and the "time, times and a half." It would also apply to the "thousand years" for which the beheaded saints reign with Christ, as his throne is heavenly and spiritual in nature. These conclusions are supported in part by what John wrote about the units for the dimension of the wall of the holy city, suggesting they are
angelic cubits.
Another point is that the gates in the wall are said to be each one a single pearl. This gives rise to the expression "pearly gates." I don't believe we need to imagine monster sized oysters in a heavenly ocean. I think the pearl is symbolic, perhaps alluding to the "pearl of great price" in the parable of Jesus. Taken literally, those gates would have to be viewed as very tiny, indeed.
Doug
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2011, 12:15:15 AM
Quote from: Doug on December 03, 2011, 10:08:16 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 03, 2011, 08:52:42 PM
Doug,
538BC+49 isn't 405BC
??
Thus, if weeks of leap years are the correct units for the first section, 49 leap years spans 133 years, and the first section of the 70 weeks ends in 405 BC.
Understood.
That would make Him 32 years old at the start of His ministry in 30AD. That's not "about 30".
Well, if Jesus was born around 3 B.C. or 2 B.C., and his ministry began in 28 A.D., he would have been "about 30." John's ministry began about 27 A.D., as Luke puts it in the 15th year of Tiberius. It is said he was co-regent with Augustus for 2 years before the death of Augustus, which was in 14 A.D.
Doug
I believe He was born in fall 3BC. Baptized in fall 27AD (Yom Kippur) at the start of John's ministry and began His own ministry spring 28AD (Passover). So we seem to (mostly) agree on those dates.
405BC + 434 (62 weeks) = 30AD
That would make Him 32 of age in western counting and about 33 in Jewish counting.
Jews didn't know zero so they started the count at 1. It's like we say a baby is born at the age of 0 but in his/her 1st year of life.
But even if you define "about 30" in a different way He was still much older than "about 30" during baptism/start of His ministry.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2011, 09:24:15 AM
I believe He was born in fall 3BC. Baptized in fall 27AD (Yom Kippur) at the start of John's ministry and began His own ministry spring 28AD (Passover). So we seem to (mostly) agree on those dates.
405BC + 434 (62 weeks) = 30AD
That would make Him 32 of age in western counting and about 33 in Jewish counting.
Jews didn't know zero so they started the count at 1. It's like we say a baby is born at the age of 0 but in his/her 1st year of life.
But even if you define "about 30" in a different way He was still much older than "about 30" during baptism/start of His ministry.
I think if one adds 405 BC years and 29 AD years, the total number of years would be 434.
But, the problem is with the date 405 BC, which is 538 minus 133. This is a bit too simplistic. Since leap years occur about every third year, 49 leap years might occur in 131, or 132, or 133 years. The first leap year after 538 BC was 537 BC, and the 49th one was the year 407 BC. The start of the second section of 62 weeks would be the year 406 BC. It is also possible that the 62 weeks correspond to sabbatical cycles; the destruction of the temple in 70 AD is supposed to have happened at the end of a sabbatical year, according to a Jewish tradition. In that case the end of the second section of 62 weeks would be 27/28 AD, a sabbatical year according to Ben Zion Wacholder. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Sabbatical_Years) Another theory by Benedict Zuckermann says the sabbatical year was one year previous.
My 70 weeks calculator (http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/%7Etcc/OP/calc70s.php) displays all the dates. The same results are produced for 539, 538, and 537 BC.
Doug
Doug,
I've read several articles on your website and several times you write: "Sacrifices did not end in 30 AD, but continued for about 40 years longer."
Of course that's a simple fact. But is it really what the verse is refering to?
(Daniel 9:27 [CLV])
Then he will be master of a covenant with many for one seven:At half of the seven, he will cause to cease the sacrifice and the approach present; on a wing of the sanctuary shall be desolating abominations. Till the conclusion of the era the decided conclusion will be poured forth on the desolation."
I wonder what those red words mean. Is the only possible meaning that the sacrcrifices stopped in the middle of the week? Or could it also mean that the NEED to sacrifice stopped in the middle of the week?
Below a rather long quote from my lexicon. It's about the grammar of the word cause-to-cease.
H8811 (BestLex)
Imperfect
The imperfect expresses an action, process or condition which is
incomplete, and it has a wide range of meaning:
1a) It is used to describe a single (as opposed to a repeated) action
in the past; it differs from the perfect in being more vivid and
pictorial. The perfect expresses the "fact", the imperfect adds
colour and movement by suggesting the "process" preliminary to its
completion.
He put forth his hand to the door
it came to a halt
I began to hear
1b) A phrase such as "What seekest thou?", refers not only to the
present, but assumes that the search has continued for some time.
Why do you weep?
Why refuse to eat?
Why are you distressed?
These relate not so much as to one occasion, as to a
continued condition.
2) The kind of progression or imperfection and unfinished condition
of the action may consist in its frequent repetition.
2a) In the present:
it is "said" today
a wise son "maketh glad" his father
2b) In the past:
"and so he did" - regularly, year by year
a mist "used to go up"
the fish which "we used to eat"
the manna "came down" -regularly
He "spoke" -repeatedly
3) The imperfect is used to express the "future", referring not only
to an action which is about to be accomplished but one which has
not yet begun:
3a) This may be a future from the point of view of the real
present; as:
Now "shalt thou See what I will do"
"We will burn" thy house
3b) It may be a future from any other point of view assumed; as:
He took his son that "was to reign"
she stayed to See what "should be done"
4) The usage of 3b may be taken as the transitive to a common use of
the imperfect in which it serves for an expression of those shades
of relation among acts and thoughts for which English prefers the
conditional moods. Such actions are strictly "future" in reference
to the assumed point of relation, and the simple imperfect
sufficiently expresses them; e.g.
of every tree thou "mayest eat"
"could we know"
He "would" say
5a) The imperfect follows particles expressing "transition",
"purpose", "result" and so forth as, "in order that", "lest"; e.g.
say thou art my sister, "that it may be well with thee"
let us deal wisely with the nation, "lest it multiplies"
5b) When however there is a strong feeling of "purpose", or when it
is meant to be strongly marked, then of course the moods are
employed; e.g.
raise me up "that I may requite them"
who will entice Ahab "that he may go up"
what shall we do "that the sea may be calm"
The moods are also employed to express that class of
future actions which we express in the "optative"
"may I die"
"may" the LORD "establish" his word
"may" the child "live".
Quote from: Doug on December 04, 2011, 03:11:39 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2011, 09:24:15 AM
I believe He was born in fall 3BC. Baptized in fall 27AD (Yom Kippur) at the start of John's ministry and began His own ministry spring 28AD (Passover). So we seem to (mostly) agree on those dates.
405BC + 434 (62 weeks) = 30AD
That would make Him 32 of age in western counting and about 33 in Jewish counting.
Jews didn't know zero so they started the count at 1. It's like we say a baby is born at the age of 0 but in his/her 1st year of life.
But even if you define "about 30" in a different way He was still much older than "about 30" during baptism/start of His ministry.
I think if one adds 405 BC years and 29 AD years, the total number of years would be 434.
True. It depends on how that last year is counted. Does the count end when the 434th year starts or ends. I think ends other wise the week isn't complete.
-405+434=29. No year 0 so 30AD
Even if the beginning of the year is used it's 2 years to late. That said I'll read on because I think the answer I'm looking for is below :winkgrin:
QuoteBut, the problem is with the date 405 BC, which is 538 minus 133. This is a bit too simplistic. Since leap years occur about every third year, 49 leap years might occur in 131, or 132, or 133 years. The first leap year after 538 BC was 537 BC, and the 49th one was the year 407 BC. The start of the second section of 62 weeks would be the year 406 BC. It is also possible that the 62 weeks correspond to sabbatical cycles; the destruction of the temple in 70 AD is supposed to have happened at the end of a sabbatical year, according to a Jewish tradition. In that case the end of the second section of 62 weeks would be 27/28 AD, a sabbatical year according to Ben Zion Wacholder. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Sabbatical_Years) Another theory by Benedict Zuckermann says the sabbatical year was one year previous.
So 405BC in your "70 weeks drawing" can also be 406BC or 407BC. Is that correct? (407-406BC is a Sabbath year)
My opinion is that His ministry started on a Sabbatical year (27-28). In the "usual" way of counting (day=year) all weeks start at a Sabbath year. It seems to me that your leap year system also need to align with that.
I find it also interesting that the "usual" day=year theory also points to 27-28AD.
Could it be that both ways are correct; God gave a double prophesy/pattern?
(I also very vaguely remember a way of counting that used Jubilees. But I don't remember any detail :sigh:)
QuoteMy 70 weeks calculator (http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/%7Etcc/OP/calc70s.php) displays all the dates. The same results are produced for 539, 538, and 537 BC.
Is it possible that the Jewish calculated calendar is the Babylonian calendar?
If so then 407-406BC was a leap year.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2011, 05:02:07 PM
Is it possible that the Jewish calculated calendar is the Babylonian calendar?
If so then 407-406BC was a leap year.
It is not only possible, but likely that the Jewish and Babylonian calendars would correspond, in the period following the exile, IMO.
The wise men of ancient Babylon made very accurate observations of the positions of the sun and the moon over several centuries. Their observations revealed that the motions of the sun and moon relative to the earth followed a cycle of 19 years.
It is likely that this would have been known to Daniel, as according to Daniel 2:48, king Nebuchadnezzar made Daniel "chief of the governors over all the wise men of Babylon."
Knowledge of the 19-year cycle was used to regulate the calendar in Babylon a few decades after Daniel's time. It led to a more accurate determination of the length of the year and of the lunar month (or the synodic month).
In modern astronomy, the synodic month, the time between two successive New Moons, is 29.53059 days (29 days, 12 hours, 44 minutes, 2.8 seconds). A tropical year is 365.24218967 days (365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes and 45.1875 seconds).
In ancient Babylon, observations and calculations were made, and recorded on clay tablets. The number system they employed was sexagesimal (base 60). In that system we would write, "1 year = 12;22,6,20 months." The Babylonians determined that "19 years contain 7 intercalary months."
19 years = 19 × 12 + 7 = 235 synodic months
Thus, 19 years is a "week" of leap years.
Otto Neugebauer said the 19-year cycle was incorporated in the Babylonian calendar since the 5th century B.C. [A history of ancient mathematical astronomy, Volume 2. Birkhäuser, 1975. pp. 616, 622.]
See this post (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/babylonian-astronomy-and-the-70-weeks/) for more info.
Doug
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2011, 04:25:21 PM
So 405BC in your "70 weeks drawing" can also be 406BC or 407BC. Is that correct?
The date in the graphic should probably be 406 BC, not 405 BC. I realize this now, after our discussion. So I probably should modify the date and upload a new graphic.
Doug
Quote from: Doug on December 04, 2011, 06:28:54 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2011, 05:02:07 PM
Is it possible that the Jewish calculated calendar is the Babylonian calendar?
If so then 407-406BC was a leap year.
It is not only possible, but likely that the Jewish and Babylonian calendars would correspond, in the period following the exile, IMO.
Surely there is a lot of Babylonian influence as cab seen from the month names.l But I don't know if the Jews changed the calculations (slightly).
As you like know the Jews observed new moons until long after Jesus' died. They baicly just used 12 month years. When the barley crops weren't ready at Nisan they added a leap month. It's not entirely agreed upon what that mean for their calendar. In theory the leap months would be inserted about the same time as the calculated calendar. But in case of a cold winter it could be needed that an (extra) leap month was inserted. Other scholars claim the barley just was harvest from any Israelian field (not just near Jerusalem) and Palenstine. So there was always barley ready for harvest. The above could mess up 70 week calculations. Even teh month Jesus was crucified because in case of a cold winter Passover would be one month later.
Unless of course the 70 weeks are purely based on math.
QuoteOtto Neugebauer said the 19-year cycle was incorporated in the Babylonian calendar since the 5th century B.C. [A history of ancient mathematical astronomy, Volume 2. Birkhäuser, 1975. pp. 616, 622.]
See this post (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/babylonian-astronomy-and-the-70-weeks/) for more info.
I now have 4 ways that point to a 31 AD crucifixion. So a safe bet. Unfortunaly also a bit problematic :laughing7: because it means a monday crucifixion....
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2011, 06:59:29 PM
I now have 4 ways that point to a 31 AD crucifixion. So a safe bet. Unfortunaly also a bit problematic :laughing7: because it means a monday crucifixion....
I don't see any reason to prefer 31 AD as the crucifixion date. If it points to a Monday crucifixion, that is a good reason to reject it. The time Jesus was in the tomb was not 5 days, but 3.
A 30 AD date is reasonable IMO. It also fits in with the information Paul gave about the time when he was converted which tends to support an early date for the crucifixion rather than one of the later dates.
Doug
I'n that case it's not 3.5 year/midst of the week (Sabbath cycle).
Besides of that I think His ministry must last 3 year or longer because trees bear fruit/are allowed to be harvested at the age of 3.
:dontknow:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2011, 08:54:59 PM
I'n that case it's not 3.5 year/midst of the week (Sabbath cycle).
Besides of that I think His ministry must last 3 year or longer because trees bear fruit/are allowed to be harvested at the age of 3.
:dontknow:
Luke reported the date of the beginning of John's ministry. There is no precise information on when Jesus' ministry began, other than its connection with the ministry of John. Perhaps the three and a half years, or the first half-week of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, includes the time of John's ministry. When John was put in prison, Jesus began to preach, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand." [Mark 1:15]
What time was fulfilled? Was he referring to the events of the 70th week?
Doug
This argument begs the question; Daymond Duck assumes what he attempts to prove. Furthermore, Duck misrepresents the prophecy of Daniel 2. Here, the stone was cut out without hands smote the image upon his feet. In the days of the fourth kingdom or empire, that consists of iron and clay, God sets up his kingdom. This fourth kingdom is identified with the Roman empire by most commentators.
Daniel 2:42-43
And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Dougs quote above
------------------------------------------------------
The days of these kings
Which kings?
If the first king, which is king of Babylon Nebu the head of gold, that means the kingdom of God, is Israel, since Jesus did not arrive at this point neither John the baptist preaching the coming of the kingdom.
But if it means the 10 toe kingdoms, then God has yet to set up a kingdom, which destroys these other kingdoms.
I guess your view is that th 10 toes are Roman, and that coincides with the kingdom of God during Jesus time.
So my challenge to you is to name these 10 kingdoms, that operated during the time of Jesus time.
Here is what you must have in order to fullfill the scripture.
These 10 horns must be independent states, that are an alliance of nations. Then these independent states must be weakened, as part of clay and part of Iron. During these times these 10 kings must also give their power and kingdoms to the beast, for they do not have kingdoms, until one hour with the beast.
So if the 4th Iron beast is Rome.
There must be 10 nations/kings, that give their kingdom to the Roman empire out of choice, not out of battle. These 10 kings must make war with the lamb and also war against, mystery babylon and destroy her.
I believe that the 4th Iron beast has yet to arrive on the world scene. My interpreatation of Daniels beasts is very different from classical ideas. But I am not finished with my research, there is a mysterious problem to overcome with my interpretation, but I find that the classical interpretation of the four beasts has multiple problems.
Quote from: thinktank on December 04, 2011, 09:20:58 PM
The days of these kings
Which kings?
If the first king, which is king of Babylon Nebu the head of gold, that means the kingdom of God, is Israel, since Jesus did not arrive at this point neither John the baptist preaching the coming of the kingdom.
But if it means the 10 toe kingdoms, then God has yet to set up a kingdom, which destroys these other kingdoms.
I guess your view is that th 10 toes are Roman, and that coincides with the kingdom of God during Jesus time.
So my challenge to you is to name these 10 kingdoms, that operated during the time of Jesus time.
The vision Daniel described in chapter 2 does not mention 10 kingdoms, but different kinds of materials; gold, silver, brass, iron and clay. The implication is that the value and quality becomes less, while the iron and clay depict strength and weakness respectively. This applies to the earthly kingdoms and empires of man since Daniel's time.
Daniel 2:34-35
Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
The stone that grows to a mountain and fills the earth is Christ and his kingdom, the saints.
Quote from: thinktank on December 04, 2011, 09:20:58 PM
Here is what you must have in order to fullfill the scripture.
These 10 horns must be independent states, that are an alliance of nations. Then these independent states must be weakened, as part of clay and part of Iron. During these times these 10 kings must also give their power and kingdoms to the beast, for they do not have kingdoms, until one hour with the beast.
You have jumped from Daniel to Revelation. No doubt, the visions are related, but why should the ten horns of the beast be limited to a literal ten kings? What are the 7 heads? In prophecy, numbers are often symbolic, rather than literal. The Roman Empire was organized into provinces, and these were grouped into dioceses. These were the foundations of states that eventually emerged as nations. Their territories were in constant revision.
Quote from: thinktank on December 04, 2011, 09:20:58 PM
So if the 4th Iron beast is Rome.
There must be 10 nations/kings, that give their kingdom to the Roman empire out of choice, not out of battle. These 10 kings must make war with the lamb and also war against, mystery babylon and destroy her.
I believe that the 4th Iron beast has yet to arrive on the world scene. My interpreatation of Daniels beasts is very different from classical ideas. But I am not finished with my research, there is a mysterious problem to overcome with my interpretation, but I find that the classical interpretation of the four beasts has multiple problems.
It seems misguided, IMO, to insist on a literal
ten nations or kings existing at some particular time, when the prophecy in Daniel 2 spans all history. This is also true, I think, about the beast in Revelation 13. One thing to notice is that its 7 heads have in them the "names of blasphemy." The labels "Christian," "Holy," or, in the modern age, "Israel," might fulfill this. There is an examination of some of the attempted interpretations of the ten horns in this post (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/07/12/historic-interpretations-of-the-ten-horns/).
Doug
Quote from: Doug on December 04, 2011, 09:06:03 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2011, 08:54:59 PM
I'n that case it's not 3.5 year/midst of the week (Sabbath cycle).
Besides of that I think His ministry must last 3 year or longer because trees bear fruit/are allowed to be harvested at the age of 3.
:dontknow:
Luke reported the date of the beginning of John's ministry. There is no precise information on when Jesus' ministry began, other than its connection with the ministry of John. Perhaps the three and a half years, or the first half-week of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, includes the time of John's ministry. When John was put in prison, Jesus began to preach, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand." [Mark 1:15]
What time was fulfilled? Was he referring to the events of the 70th week?
Doug
I think it points to Passover. For example at the wedding at Cana He says that it's not His time yet.
There is also indirect evidence related to the Temple in 405BC
Conception of Jesus <===> Dedication of the Temple <===> Hanukkah
Birth of Jesus <===> Altar erected <===> Rosh Hasannah
Restoration of Temple worship <===> Start Ministry <===> Passover
:2c:
Quote from: Doug on December 04, 2011, 08:30:01 PMA 30 AD date is reasonable IMO. It also fits in with the information Paul gave about the time when he was converted which tends to support an early date for the crucifixion rather than one of the later dates.
What verses are you refering to?
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2011, 11:52:46 PM
Quote from: Doug on December 04, 2011, 09:06:03 PM
Luke reported the date of the beginning of John's ministry. There is no precise information on when Jesus' ministry began, other than its connection with the ministry of John. Perhaps the three and a half years, or the first half-week of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, includes the time of John's ministry. When John was put in prison, Jesus began to preach, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand." [Mark 1:15]
What time was fulfilled? Was he referring to the events of the 70th week?
Doug
I think it points to Passover. For example at the wedding at Cana He says that it's not His time yet.
Mark 1:1 says, "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; ..." and there follows an account of John the Baptist.
This suggests to me that Mark wished to include John's ministry together with that of Jesus. John's ministry was a necessary prelude to it.
Doug
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2011, 11:54:11 PM
Quote from: Doug on December 04, 2011, 08:30:01 PMA 30 AD date is reasonable IMO. It also fits in with the information Paul gave about the time when he was converted which tends to support an early date for the crucifixion rather than one of the later dates.
What verses are you refering to?
Acts 9, 11:30, 12:23, Galatians 1:15 - 2:9
Herod Agrippa died 44 A.D. The problem is to fit the 14 years that Paul mentioned in Galatians 2:1 into the period from his conversion, to his visit to Jerusalem mentioned in Acts 11:30. This visit was associated with a revelation, Acts 11:28. And it evidently preceded the death of Herod, described in the following chapter. If the crucifixion was later than 30 A.D., the 14 years would not fit, and that becomes a problem.
Doug
Quote from: Doug on December 04, 2011, 11:16:52 PM
Quote from: thinktank on December 04, 2011, 09:20:58 PM
The days of these kings
Which kings?
If the first king, which is king of Babylon Nebu the head of gold, that means the kingdom of God, is Israel, since Jesus did not arrive at this point neither John the baptist preaching the coming of the kingdom.
But if it means the 10 toe kingdoms, then God has yet to set up a kingdom, which destroys these other kingdoms.
I guess your view is that th 10 toes are Roman, and that coincides with the kingdom of God during Jesus time.
So my challenge to you is to name these 10 kingdoms, that operated during the time of Jesus time.
The vision Daniel described in chapter 2 does not mention 10 kingdoms, but different kinds of materials; gold, silver, brass, iron and clay. The implication is that the value and quality becomes less, while the iron and clay depict strength and weakness respectively. This applies to the earthly kingdoms and empires of man since Daniel's time.
Daniel 2:34-35
Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
The stone that grows to a mountain and fills the earth is Christ and his kingdom, the saints.
Quote from: thinktank on December 04, 2011, 09:20:58 PM
Here is what you must have in order to fullfill the scripture.
These 10 horns must be independent states, that are an alliance of nations. Then these independent states must be weakened, as part of clay and part of Iron. During these times these 10 kings must also give their power and kingdoms to the beast, for they do not have kingdoms, until one hour with the beast.
You have jumped from Daniel to Revelation. No doubt, the visions are related, but why should the ten horns of the beast be limited to a literal ten kings? What are the 7 heads? In prophecy, numbers are often symbolic, rather than literal. The Roman Empire was organized into provinces, and these were grouped into dioceses. These were the foundations of states that eventually emerged as nations. Their territories were in constant revision.
Quote from: thinktank on December 04, 2011, 09:20:58 PM
So if the 4th Iron beast is Rome.
There must be 10 nations/kings, that give their kingdom to the Roman empire out of choice, not out of battle. These 10 kings must make war with the lamb and also war against, mystery babylon and destroy her.
I believe that the 4th Iron beast has yet to arrive on the world scene. My interpreatation of Daniels beasts is very different from classical ideas. But I am not finished with my research, there is a mysterious problem to overcome with my interpretation, but I find that the classical interpretation of the four beasts has multiple problems.
It seems misguided, IMO, to insist on a literal ten nations or kings existing at some particular time, when the prophecy in Daniel 2 spans all history. This is also true, I think, about the beast in Revelation 13. One thing to notice is that its 7 heads have in them the "names of blasphemy." The labels "Christian," "Holy," or, in the modern age, "Israel," might fulfill this. There is an examination of some of the attempted interpretations of the ten horns in this post (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/07/12/historic-interpretations-of-the-ten-horns/).
Doug
Doug, the 10 kings I said were the 10 toes. Not only are these 10 horns paralleled in the book of revelation, but also shown as 10 toes.
The 10 kings are the last part of the statue, because they only exist at the very end and in the book of rev, they do battle against Jesus Christ, the king of kings and his saints.
The angel says to Daniel that the head of gold is King Nebu, the first part of the image. The statue gets built from head downwards. The next empire is silver.
The book of daniel shows that a horn = a king
A head = King of empire.
King Nebu is the first head the first empire of Babylon.
Quote from: Molly on November 30, 2011, 05:23:53 PM
PREMILLENNIALISM
By Daymond Duck
...
7) Jesus will send forth His angels to remove the wicked from the earth at His Second Coming (Matthew 13:36-43; 47-51). Since the wicked are removed before the kingdom of everlasting righteousness is established, the Second Coming will be BEFORE the Millennium.
The parable of the tares in Matthew 13 refutes Premillennialism, as the parable says that the tares are to be gathered
out of his kingdom. This implies the
kingdom already exists, and in it there are both kinds of things, tares and wheat. At the end of the world the tares are gathered up, bundled, and burned.
Matthew 13:40-41
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Quote from: Molly on November 30, 2011, 05:23:53 PM
8) Jesus told Christians to watch for the Second Coming, but there would be no need to watch for the Second Coming if it is after the Church wins most of the world to Christ (Postmillennialism). No matter how long the Millennium is there is no need to watch for the Second Coming if the Church must convert the world first.
http://www.raptureready.com/featured/duck/dd9.html
Dispensationalists say the
rapture comes before the seven year tribulation, which is followed by the millennium. Do they watch for the Second Coming? Or the secret rapture? Or do they look for signs of the great tribulation? Or the rise of the Antichrist? Or a literal temple to be rebuilt in Jerusalem? Or the rise in buzzard populations in Palestine? Or threats of an invasion by Russia, Iran, and other Arab nations on the Jewish state? Where did Jesus say to watch for the second coming? Jesus said,
Matthew 24:15-17
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
The dispensationalists say that this applies to ethnic Jews. They will have to flee, when some sort of abomination appears, presumably in Jerusalem. They expect it to be a portent of something terrible.
But Jesus also said:
Luke 17:33
Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Only very rarely do they mention this verse, in connection with Matthew 24:15. Jesus clearly was
not saying to flee to save your own life, as that would
contradict what he said in Luke 17:33. I suggest that Jesus meant flee to the things that mountains in Scripture represent, the promises of God. The mountains he meant are symbolic. David said:
Psalm 36:6
Thy righteousness is like the great mountains; thy judgments are a great deep: O LORD, thou preservest man and beast.
Psalm 72:3
The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.
The mountains represent God's righteousness, and Jesus recommends that we seek his kingdom, and his righteousness. "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." [Matthew 6:33]
The kingdom of God is a "mountain" that is to fill the earth. In Revelation 20:4, those who are "beheaded" reign with Christ. The kingdom of Christ is everlasting. The Psalmist said, "Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations." [Psalm 145:13]
Daniel wrote:
Daniel 7:14
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Dispensationalists who say that Christ's kingdom is to last for a thousand years misread Revelation 20, where it says the saints who are
beheadedreign with Christ for a thousand years; nowhere does it say that
Christ reigns a thousand years. His reign is depicted as everlasting. A thousand years is a mere "watch in the night" compared to Christ's reign. "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." [Psalm 90:4]
When Jesus said "watch," was he referring to this "watch in the night"? Is it the "thousand years" for which the saints are reigning in their present lives? Indeed, we are said to "sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." [Ephesians 2:6] And we are also warned to watch, as that is equivalent to reigning with Christ! "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up." [Matthew 24:42]
Here are a few more warnings to "watch."
Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
Mark 13:33
Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
Mark 13:35
Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
1 Peter 4:7
But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Dispensationalism misleads people, saying the kingdom is not yet. They put them to sleep! We need to wake up, and
watch, because
now is when we are reigning with Christ.
Watch out that we are not found among the things that offend,
tares that are to be uprooted and destroyed!
Doug
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
The dispensationalists say that this applies to ethnic Jews. They will have to flee, when some sort of abomination appears, presumably in Jerusalem. They expect it to be a portent of something terrible.
But Jesus also said:
Luke 17:33
Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Only very rarely do they mention this verse, in connection with Matthew 24:15. Jesus clearly was not saying to flee to save your own life, as that would contradict what he said in Luke 17:33. I suggest that Jesus meant flee to the things that mountains in Scripture represent, the promises of God. The mountains he meant are symbolic. David said:
Doug
This is misleading. Luke is saying to not save our life?
If that is the case why did Jesus speak to the Jews to literally flee, when Jerusalem is encampassed by armies. In Ad70 the christians took Jesus advice and were saved from slaughter by the Romans.
But the scripture has yet to reach its full conclusion on these matters, when the abomination of desolation enters the third temple.
"abomination of desolation"
Is man ruled by wretched thought and emotion instead of His Christ.
There is only One Place called His Temple; if He is not in it — YOU ARE!
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 05, 2011, 04:14:01 AM
"abomination of desolation"
Is man ruled by wretched thought and emotion instead of His Christ.
There is only One Place called His Temple; if He is not in it — YOU ARE!
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 05, 2011, 04:14:01 AM
"abomination of desolation"
Is man ruled by wretched thought and emotion instead of His Christ.
There is only One Place called His Temple; if He is not in it — YOU ARE!
That's why only those who are
beheaded reign with Christ.
Doug
YES!
That's why Jesus said to Peter get behind me Satan!
It was SELF trying to save SELF!
It's a MIRACLE!
"One of the Greatest Songs Ever Written"
...and who could deny it?
Battle Hymn of the Republic :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4Xz7WV_qJs
"Mine eyes have seen..."
"Mine eyes have seen..."
"Mine eyes have seen..."
Have YOUR eyes seen ???
Doug, a list of leap years.
3249 - 513-512 BC
3252 - 510-509 BC
3355 - 407-406 BC End of 1st week (leap year 49)
3352 - 410-409 BC
3350 - 412-411 BC
3347 - 415-414 BC
3344 - 418-417 BC
3342 - 420-419 BC
3339 - 423-422 BC
3336 - 426-425 BC
3333 - 429-428 BC
3331 - 431-430 BC
3328 - 434-433 BC
3325 - 437-436 BC
3323 - 439-438 BC
3320 - 442-441 BC
3317 - 445-444 BC
3314 - 448-447 BC
3312 - 450-449 BC
3309 - 453-452 BC
3306 - 456-455 BC
3304 - 458-457 BC
3301 - 461-460 BC
3298 - 464-463 BC
3295 - 467-466 BC
3293 - 469-468 BC
3290 - 472-474 BC
3287 - 475-474 BC
3285 - 477-476 BC
3282 - 480-479 BC
3279 - 483-482 BC
3276 - 486-485 BC
3274 - 488-487 BC
3271 - 491-490 BC
3268 - 494-493 BC
3266 - 496-495 BC
3263 - 499-498 BC
3260 - 502-501 BC
3257 - 505-504 BC
3255 - 507-506 BC
3252 - 510-509 BC
3249 - 513-512 BC
3247 - 515-514 BC
3244 - 518-517 BC
3241 - 521-520 BC
3238 - 524-523 BC
3236 - 526-525 BC
3233 - 529-528 BC
3230 - 532-531 BC
3228 - 534-533 BC
3225 - 537-536 BC Cyrus - Start of count. Week 0
3222 - 540-539 BC
3219 - 543-542 BC
3217 - 545-544 BC
CYRUS
Oct. 10 539 Sippar is taken by Persian forces
Oct 12, Babylon falls
Oct 29, Cyrus enters Babylon
Accension not later than Oct 26, 539
Accension Nov 19, 539
Accension Jan 14 538
Dates taken from: http://www.astro.uu.nl/~vgent/babylon/downloads/babylonian_chronology_pd1956.pdf
Maybe also of intrest:
http://countdowntothemessiah.com/Ancient_History.html
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 05, 2011, 09:12:14 AM
Doug, a list of leap years.
3249 - 513-512 BC
3252 - 510-509 BC
3355 - 407-406 BC End of 1st week (leap year 49)
3352 - 410-409 BC
...
3228 - 534-533 BC
3225 - 537-536 BC Cyrus - Start of count. Week 0
3222 - 540-539 BC
3219 - 543-542 BC
3217 - 545-544 BC
CYRUS
Oct. 10 539 Sippar is taken by Persian forces
Oct 12, Babylon falls
Oct 29, Cyrus enters Babylon
Accension not later than Oct 26, 539
Accension Nov 19, 539
Accension Jan 14 538
Dates taken from: http://www.astro.uu.nl/~vgent/babylon/downloads/babylonian_chronology_pd1956.pdf
Maybe also of intrest:
http://countdowntothemessiah.com/Ancient_History.html
Looking at your dates, they seem to agree with the dates generated by my 70 weeks calculator (http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/%7Etcc/OP/calc70s.php). There are 131 years between the beginning of 537/6 BC and the end of 407/6 BC. The decree could have gone out any time from Oct 26, 539 BC to the end of 537/6 BC, and the results would be the same. If the first section of the 70 weeks is 49 leap years there is no gap between the exile and the start of the 70 weeks; they are continuous. This agrees with the idea that the exile and the three sections of the 70 weeks correspond to the four periods of seven times in Leviticus 26. Any gap would imply a temporary lapse in the curse described in that chapter, which Daniel refers to [Daniel 9:11]. It would require a temporary reconciliation of God with Israel, but that has not happened. The reconciliation will be a permanent one, not a temporary one.
Counting the 70 weeks from Cyrus agrees with Isaiah's prophecy that said
Cyrus would give the word to build Jerusalem.
Isaiah 44:24-28
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;
That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:
That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers:
That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
The second section of the 70 weeks corresponds to the third of the four periods of seven times in Leviticus 26. It is seven times where a "time" is 62 years. The period is also 62 sabbatical cycles. They end in about 27/28 AD which is the time of the ministry of Jesus. The prophecy accurately predicts his appearance without invoking spurious calculations, 360 day years and so forth.
The 70 weeks prophecy applies not only to the earthly Jerusalem but the heavenly one too. When Jesus was crucified, he was somewhere on the mount of Olives, as it appears that the centurion standing nearby when he died observed the veil in the temple being rent from top to bottom. [Mark 15:37-39] That would be possible only from the mount of Olives.
Jesus previously said,
Luke 13:33
Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Yet he died upon the mount of Olives. Jesus died in Jerusalem, but not in the earthly city, he was in the heavenly one. When he was raised up, and ascended to heaven, Jerusalem was raised up to heaven too. He ascended from the mount of Olives. [Acts 1:12]
The last half of the 70th week applies to the heavenly city, and so earth days, earth months, and earth years do not apply to it; I believe the last half week is symbolic of the whole age of the church, when Christ continues to confirm his covenant with many. In the last half week the holy city which becomes desolate is the Church; the abomination is spiritual, and it seems to be connected with false prophets, and flawed interpretations, which is suggested by the "wing of abominations."
Something is to be "poured out" upon the Church, when she has been made desolate. Perhaps it is the anointing mentioned in verse 24, "Seventy sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression ... and to anoint the Most Holy Place." [NIV]
Doug
Quote from: Doug on December 05, 2011, 12:23:46 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2011, 11:54:11 PM
Quote from: Doug on December 04, 2011, 08:30:01 PMA 30 AD date is reasonable IMO. It also fits in with the information Paul gave about the time when he was converted which tends to support an early date for the crucifixion rather than one of the later dates.
What verses are you refering to?
Acts 9, 11:30, 12:23, Galatians 1:15 - 2:9
Herod Agrippa died 44 A.D. The problem is to fit the 14 years that Paul mentioned in Galatians 2:1 into the period from his conversion, to his visit to Jerusalem mentioned in Acts 11:30. This visit was associated with a revelation, Acts 11:28. And it evidently preceded the death of Herod, described in the following chapter. If the crucifixion was later than 30 A.D., the 14 years would not fit, and that becomes a problem.
Doug
That's the sort of info I like :winkgrin:
Indeed, many sources claim a 44AD death (March)
But some 43 AD
http://doig.net/NTC04.html
and died on the fifth day. Agrippa I died of his illness on September 28, 43 CE (43T).
There have been other suggestions for dating Agrippa's death.
However, these festivals every fifth year would have fallen on March 5, 42 or 47 CE, not in 43 or 44 CE.
/EDIT
http://books.google.nl/books?id=exBKKcXH_SQC&pg=PA108&lpg=PA108&dq=what+month+did+agrippa+die?+44&source=bl&ots=os884E6tKT&sig=ncr6VoY8RR1FapM6KCfhsDnTzXE&hl=nl#v=onepage&q&f=false
Jan/Feb 43
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 05, 2011, 03:03:00 PM
Quote from: Doug on December 05, 2011, 12:23:46 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2011, 11:54:11 PM
Quote from: Doug on December 04, 2011, 08:30:01 PMA 30 AD date is reasonable IMO. It also fits in with the information Paul gave about the time when he was converted which tends to support an early date for the crucifixion rather than one of the later dates.
What verses are you refering to?
Acts 9, 11:30, 12:23, Galatians 1:15 - 2:9
Herod Agrippa died 44 A.D. The problem is to fit the 14 years that Paul mentioned in Galatians 2:1 into the period from his conversion, to his visit to Jerusalem mentioned in Acts 11:30. This visit was associated with a revelation, Acts 11:28. And it evidently preceded the death of Herod, described in the following chapter. If the crucifixion was later than 30 A.D., the 14 years would not fit, and that becomes a problem.
Doug
That's the sort of info I like :winkgrin:
Indeed, many sources claim a 44AD death (March)
But some 43 AD
http://doig.net/NTC04.html
and died on the fifth day. Agrippa I died of his illness on September 28, 43 CE (43T).
There have been other suggestions for dating Agrippa's death.
However, these festivals every fifth year would have fallen on March 5, 42 or 47 CE, not in 43 or 44 CE.
According to Daniel R. Schwartz, Agrippa I: the last king of Judaea (http://books.google.ca/books?id=exBKKcXH_SQC) pp. 109-110, the games were initiated 10/9 BC and they were held every 4th year. Josephus says "every fifth year" but Schwartz explained this as ancient 'inclusive' parlance, "the equivalent of our 'quadrennial.' Thus, for example, the Olympic Games too could be so described." [Note 11, p. 109]
43/44 AD was the 14th celebration of the Caesarean games. Schwartz says "In summary, it appears that Agrippa died between September/October (Tishri) 43 and January/Febrruary 44, and most probably at the very beginning of this period, in the course of, or shortly after, a Caesarean festival founded by his granddfather in honor of Augustus." [p. 111.]
Quote from: Doug on December 05, 2011, 02:48:52 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 05, 2011, 09:12:14 AM
Doug, a list of leap years.
3249 - 513-512 BC
3252 - 510-509 BC
3355 - 407-406 BC End of 1st week (leap year 49)
3352 - 410-409 BC
...
3228 - 534-533 BC
3225 - 537-536 BC Cyrus - Start of count. Week 0
3222 - 540-539 BC
3219 - 543-542 BC
3217 - 545-544 BC
CYRUS
Oct. 10 539 Sippar is taken by Persian forces
Oct 12, Babylon falls
Oct 29, Cyrus enters Babylon
Accension not later than Oct 26, 539
Accension Nov 19, 539
Accension Jan 14 538
Dates taken from: http://www.astro.uu.nl/~vgent/babylon/downloads/babylonian_chronology_pd1956.pdf
Maybe also of intrest:
http://countdowntothemessiah.com/Ancient_History.html
Looking at your dates, they seem to agree with the dates generated by my 70 weeks calculator (http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/%7Etcc/OP/calc70s.php).
But shifted 1 year IIRC.
I'm starting to think there are (at least) 3 Seventy weeks prophesies. That may sound odd but this is the way I look at it:
1] As described on your site. Last week goes far beyond crucifixion. I haved really studied this yet but it's very reasonbly to assume Jesus didn't stop 'working' when He ascended.
2] The year for a day variation. Different starting point 444/445. Arrives at the same baptism date but ends 34AD when the Gospel goes to the Gentiles. 34AD is logical termination point also.
3] The decrees start at Tishri and Nisan. So they possibly point to Baptism and start of His ministry.
4] ..... more variations?
I think if all variations are taken in account there is very litte/no room left to bend the prophesy for "doctrinal use".
QuoteThe last half of the 70th week applies to the heavenly city, and so earth days, earth months, and earth years do not apply to it; I believe the last half week is symbolic of the whole age of the church, when Christ continues to confirm his covenant with many. In the last half week the holy city which becomes desolate is the Church; the abomination is spiritual, and it seems to be connected with false prophets, and flawed interpretations, which is suggested by the "wing of abominations."
Something is to be "poured out" upon the Church, when she has been made desolate. Perhaps it is the anointing mentioned in verse 24, "Seventy sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression ... and to anoint the Most Holy Place." [NIV]
Doug
So you believe in a literal end to the 70 weeks, that something is going to happen, that it will be the end of the age, [correct me if I'm wrong]--but since you don't believe it will be the 1000 year reign of Christ and his saints, what do you think it will be? And, what will the next age look like?
Quote from: Molly on December 05, 2011, 04:49:25 PM
So you believe in a literal end to the 70 weeks, that something is going to happen, that it will be the end of the age, [correct me if I'm wrong]--but since you don't believe it will be the 1000 year reign of Christ and his saints, what do you think it will be? And, what will the next age look like?
The next age, I think, is not a Millennium, but a time of
judgment. Paul said to the Corinthians, "Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" [1 Corinthians 6:2]
After the 7th trumpet, it is said:
Revelation 11:15-19
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Jesus spoke of a time when all the tribes of the earth will mourn.
Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
This seems to imply masses of people repenting and turning to God. In Zechariah 12:10, "they shall look upon me whom they have pierced" applies to all those who repent, not to Jews of the first century. See Job 42:5. It means "see" in the sense Job uses it here. Jesus said, "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." [Matthew 5:8]
Isaiah wrote, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this." [Isaiah 9:6-7]
Christ's reign is
for ever, not for a thousand years. And it does not end in a general rebellion. Christopher Wordsworth said, about the thousand years of Revelation 20, "It is not said that Christ reigns with His saints, but that they reign with Him." See the reference here (http://www.sentex.ca/~tcc/Wordsworth-M.html).
Nowhere in Scripture is the reign of Christ said to be a thousand years. That expression applies to the
limited time that the individual saints reign with Christ, whose reign is said to be forever and ever. That occurs in the present age, as in every generation, Christ's followers, who are figuratively
beheaded reign with him; the thousand years applies to
them, not to Christ's reign.
Jesus gave many indications that when he comes, many people will be unprepared. He compared his coming to the visit of a thief. "But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into." [Luke 12:39]
Jesus encourages us to seek to enter his kingdom in
this age, rather than the next, which he referred to as "winter" and as the "sabbath day" in Matthew 24.
Matthew 24:19-21
And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Why did he mention "pray ye that your flight be not in the winter"? Perhaps this is because "winter" is the season that follows the harvest. In the harvest season the saints who are worthy are rewarded; those who are "left behind" have to go through the judgment, which is referred to as a "great tribulation." They would not be among the "firstfruits," represented by the 144,000 in Revelation 14, who "were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb;" but instead they would be among the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues," the second group of Revelation 7, who "came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." [vs. 9, 14]
Why did he say "pray ye that your flight be not on the sabbath day"? Because the sabbath day is a
shadow and a
type of the eternal rest of the saints. Those who are not accounted worthy will have to flee, and seek God's righteousness, at the time when other saints are enjoying the promised "rest."
In the judgment, Paul indicates that those Jews who "abide not still in unbelief" may be "grafted" back into the olive tree, the promises from which they had been cut off. [Romans 11:23]
It is more tolerable for some, that for others. Jesus said, "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city." [Mark 6:11]
Doug
woah, that's a lot to ingest, Doug. Let's take it a little piece at a time.
Do you think there is one resurrection or two or three?
Do you think we have already entered into a type of firstfruits resurrection, having already crossed into eternal life?
Quote from: Doug on December 05, 2011, 06:48:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 05, 2011, 04:49:25 PM
So you believe in a literal end to the 70 weeks, that something is going to happen, that it will be the end of the age, [correct me if I'm wrong]--but since you don't believe it will be the 1000 year reign of Christ and his saints, what do you think it will be? And, what will the next age look like?
The next age, I think, is not a Millennium, but a time of judgment.
Or both.
His Word says, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: On such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." (Rev.20:6)
Imo judgement is about correction/learning. I think that happens during that 1000 years.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 05, 2011, 07:31:05 PM
Quote from: Doug on December 05, 2011, 06:48:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 05, 2011, 04:49:25 PM
So you believe in a literal end to the 70 weeks, that something is going to happen, that it will be the end of the age, [correct me if I'm wrong]--but since you don't believe it will be the 1000 year reign of Christ and his saints, what do you think it will be? And, what will the next age look like?
The next age, I think, is not a Millennium, but a time of judgment.
Or both.
His Word says, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: On such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." (Rev.20:6)
Imo judgement is about correction/learning. I think that happens during that 1000 years.
That's sort of how I see it, too. But, Doug says there is no literal 1000 year reign, so I'm trying to find out how he sees it.
Quote from: Molly on December 05, 2011, 08:04:15 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 05, 2011, 07:31:05 PM
Quote from: Doug on December 05, 2011, 06:48:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 05, 2011, 04:49:25 PM
So you believe in a literal end to the 70 weeks, that something is going to happen, that it will be the end of the age, [correct me if I'm wrong]--but since you don't believe it will be the 1000 year reign of Christ and his saints, what do you think it will be? And, what will the next age look like?
The next age, I think, is not a Millennium, but a time of judgment.
Or both.
His Word says, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: On such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." (Rev.20:6)
Imo judgement is about correction/learning. I think that happens during that 1000 years.
That's sort of how I see it, too. But, Doug says there is no literal 1000 year reign, so I'm trying to find out how he sees it.
I can see Dougs view point from an old testament prophecies, but not from the new testament.
For one is that the devil is chained, then released.
Quote from: WhiteWings
Imo judgement is about correction/learning. I think that happens during that 1000 years.
This is the way I understand it also. It seems to me there has to be a time of correction/learning. I believe it will either be God himself teaching, or those who have already gained immortality. I don't think any human can teach 100% of the truth because they just aren't given that much understanding.
What I would like to know is, is our 6000 years about up or do you think man is given longer than that? Also, what does Christ being in the tomb 3 days and nights have to do with it? We are part way into the 3000 years. Do you think it will be in the beginning of the third day, midway, or the same time Jesus was in the tomb, or something else? I am speaking, till Christ comes again. Anybody have any ideas on this?
CHB
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 05, 2011, 07:31:05 PM
Quote from: Doug on December 05, 2011, 06:48:43 PM
The next age, I think, is not a Millennium, but a time of judgment.
Or both.
His Word says, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: On such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." (Rev.20:6)
Imo judgement is about correction/learning. I think that happens during that 1000 years.
Paul said that believers have already been translated into Christ's kingdom. He wrote:
Colossians 1:12-14
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.
Those who think the thousand years is future, tend to discount the idea that the saints are already reigning.
The phrase "a thousand years" is shown to have a non-literal meaning in 2 Peter 3:8.
In Revelation 20, the thousand years corresponds to the time when Satan is bound. This applies personally, and on an individual level; Jesus demonstrated this, as for him, Satan was bound, and yet, in the rest of the world, Satan continued to deceive people as usual.
IMO the thousand years represents the spiritual life of a believer in this present age. It is symbolic, and alludes to the "earnest" of the Spirit given to the saints, a foretaste of eternal life. Its end occurs only for those who abandon the life of Christ. Revelation 20:8-9 indicates that they become deceived, and turn against the "camp of the saints," and the beloved city, which is the church.
Doug
Quote from: Doug
Paul said that believers have already been translated into Christ's kingdom. He wrote:
Yes, but what happened, or happens to the non believers?
CHB
I have a simple question, all the great information (and it is a lot) on a "rapture," or "caught up" or "harpazō " is there any proof of this phenomenon taking place in the natural? Or is this a Charismatic and Fundamentalist interruption and assumption that this event will happen?
Micah, I don't see it in scripture but I may be missing something, I don't know?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on December 05, 2011, 09:42:46 PM
Micah, I don't see it in scripture but I may be missing something, I don't know?
CHB
I may be missing something too.
Quote from: CHB on December 05, 2011, 09:25:30 PM
Quote from: Doug
Paul said that believers have already been translated into Christ's kingdom. He wrote:
Yes, but what happened, or happens to the non believers?
CHB
Paul spoke of "the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." [Romans 2:16] In his speech to the men at Mars' hill in Athens, Paul said:
Acts 17:30-31
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
I think the non believers must be the ones John described as a "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" in Revelation 7:9, who "came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." [vs. 14]
The first group described in the chapter, the 144,000, 12,000 of each of the tribes of Israel, are those who are sealed, and these represent the saints of the present age. In Revelation 14:4, they are the ones who are "redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."
The New Testament encourages us to be among those who are sealed, the firstfruits. "And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." [Revelation 14:5]
Doug
Quote from: CHB on December 05, 2011, 08:18:31 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings
Imo judgment is about correction/learning. I think that happens during that 1000 years.
This is the way I understand it also. It seems to me there has to be a time of correction/learning. I believe it will either be God himself teaching, or those who have already gained immortality. I don't think any human can teach 100% of the truth because they just aren't given that much understanding.
I think Father isn't doing much at all. He has given all things in Jesus' hands. Jesus rules with a rod. = correction.
I think the saint will do the teaching and obviously Jesus is in control of the Saints.
It would just be empty words to say the saints rule with Jesus and then then all they are allowed to do is nothing :laughing7:
1 Corinthians 6 [AKJV]
2 Do you not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know you not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
Saints judge the world. Saints judge the angels. Seems like the saints are higher in rank than the angels. To complicate things the Saints will spread the word of God. So they are messengers. Angel=messenger.
Revelation 14 [AKJV]
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Is that verse about the millennium Kingdom? Lamb=Jesus. Angels=Saints.
QuoteWhat I would like to know is, is our 6000 years about up or do you think man is given longer than that? Also, what does Christ being in the tomb 3 days and nights have to do with it? We are part way into the 3000 years. Do you think it will be in the beginning of the third day, midway, or the same time Jesus was in the tomb, or something else? I am speaking, till Christ comes again. Anybody have any ideas on this?
3 days might have a very different length as might you think. (for prof of this reasoning check out how long the 3 day fast of Esther lasted)
3 days can be anything between 72 hours and 24 hours and a split second....
Jews count inclusive. So 1 second of day 1 + 24 hours of day 2 + 1/1000000 second of day 3 = 3 days.
Scaling that up to 1 day = 1000 year means the 3 milena can be anywhere between 1000 and 3000 years.
Of course that can be narrowed down a bit. For example the usual betrothal period was 1-2 year. 1000-2000 year.
As you said the 6000 years are nearly up. Today is Friday. The next day is Saturday.
Would mankind rule during the Sabbath or
Matthew 12 [ACV]
8 For the Son of man is Lord of the Sabbath.
:banana:
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 05, 2011, 09:37:14 PM
I have a simple question, all the great information (and it is a lot) on a "rapture," or "caught up" or "harpazō " is there any proof of this phenomenon taking place in the natural? Or is this a Charismatic and Fundamentalist interruption and assumption that this event will happen?
Soul sleep time for me :grave: so you gotta look up the details yourself.
If it's literal NOBODY leaves earth. Jesus joins returns and stays on earth.
People meet Jesus. That doesn't mean they go with Him. It means they just meet Him and take Him home.
When Paul returned from Rome other met (raptured) him. Paul followed them to their homes. They didn't follow Paul to Rome.
The same word is is used in the 10 virgins parable. Those without oil went away. Those without oil met their betrothed man/husband/Jesus. But they were NOT taken away. The 5 virgins took the groom inside of their house.
When the 5 other virgins came back from buying oil the groom said "I don't know you".
Obviously the groom can't speak to the foolish 5 virgins if he not inside of theouse of the wise virgins.
Don't forget this verse:
"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations" (Rev 13:7).
Satan starts a war in heaven against the saints that are raptured?
Good night.
Quote from: WhiteWings
I think Father isn't doing much at all. He has given all things in Jesus' hands. Jesus rules with a rod. = correction.
I think the saint will do the teaching and obviously Jesus is in control of the Saints.
It would just be empty words to say the saints rule with Jesus and then then all they are allowed to do is nothing
I was going by these verses in relation to those who were teachers being immortal. (Isaiah 30:20-21) yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more,but thine eyesshall see thy teachers; And thine ears shall HEAR A WORD BEHIND THEE, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left. Yes, I know Jesus is in control of the saints. I think Jesus will have to teach the saints before they teach anyone else though, this is what I was saying.
CHB
Quote from: thinktank on December 05, 2011, 08:17:27 PM
I can see Dougs view point from an old testament prophecies, but not from the new testament.
For one is that the devil is chained, then released.
Would you call the Millennial reign a "watch in the night"?
The Psalmist says that a thousand years is like a "watch in the night."
Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
Why would the Scripture say that Christ is to reign forever, if his reign is only to be for a mere "watch in the night"?
In the Millennium, will there be a new dark age? Will life be so primitive then, that men will resort to weapons such as bows and arrows, spears, clubs, and handstaves, as Ezekiel describes in chapter 38? Will armies riding on horses come against the land of the Jews, at the end of the Millennium, looking to take a prey, and a great spoil? Will they "think an evil thought," a thousand years into the Millennial reign?
Are the invaders of Gog and Magog going to turn against each other, armed with swords? And will they litter the territory of Palestine with their corpses, and so generate an awful stench? Will the Jews living in that time bury their corpses for seven months, and burn their weapons as fuel for seven years, and after that, will birds devour their corpses and drink their blood? Hmm.. does that make sense?
Taken literally, and when considered together with what the Scriptures say about Gog and Magog, the Millennium theory makes very little sense. And it presents a very gloomy scenario for the future of the world. It is said that the resurrected saints will judge, and re-educate humanity, for a thousand years. But how futile, when the outcome is known from the start! What a dismal job it will be for saints who know all their best effort and ingenuity is doomed to fail, and the population of the world will eventually end up in a state of general rebellion, when Satan is let loose! But, promoting this doctrine or some variant of it is
big business in America! Gullible theology students in seminary, hoping to become ministers, want to "know which way the wind blows," and the wind in America blows the way of Premillennialism. Their professors teach and support the doctrine, as many colleges require them to subscribe to that belief. They publish books and articles supporting it.
The Millennium is a "watch in the night," that ends in rebellion. The doctrine contradicts several scriptures that describe the reign of Christ as lasting forever:
Psalm 146:10
The LORD shall reign for ever, even thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye the LORD.
Luke 1:33
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Doug
Micah, "Re: Rapture dream
« Reply #165 on: Today at 01:37:14 PM »
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I have a simple question, all the great information (and it is a lot) on a "rapture," or "caught up" or "harpazō " is there any proof of this phenomenon taking place in the natural? Or is this a Charismatic and Fundamentalist interruption and assumption that this event will happen?
Could the rapture just be a dream?
Quote from: CHB on December 06, 2011, 01:08:36 AMI know Jesus is in control of the saints. I think Jesus will have to teach the saints before they teach anyone else though, this is what I was saying.
With that I can agree. The question is: When.
Perhaps they are saints because they are already thaught. "elected"
Quote from: Doug on December 06, 2011, 01:42:42 AM
Why would the Scripture say that Christ is to reign forever, if his reign is only to be for a mere "watch in the night"?
Jesus rules for an age and then He hands over His kingdom to Father.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 06, 2011, 09:24:59 AM
Quote from: CHB on December 06, 2011, 01:08:36 AMI know Jesus is in control of the saints. I think Jesus will have to teach the saints before they teach anyone else though, this is what I was saying.
With that I can agree. The question is: When.
Perhaps they are saints because they are already thaught. "elected"
"The question is: When." The answer is NOW. :bigGrin:
Quote from: Doug on December 05, 2011, 03:25:24 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 05, 2011, 03:03:00 PM
Quote from: Doug on December 05, 2011, 12:23:46 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2011, 11:54:11 PM
Quote from: Doug on December 04, 2011, 08:30:01 PMA 30 AD date is reasonable IMO. It also fits in with the information Paul gave about the time when he was converted which tends to support an early date for the crucifixion rather than one of the later dates.
What verses are you refering to?
Acts 9, 11:30, 12:23, Galatians 1:15 - 2:9
Herod Agrippa died 44 A.D. The problem is to fit the 14 years that Paul mentioned in Galatians 2:1 into the period from his conversion, to his visit to Jerusalem mentioned in Acts 11:30. This visit was associated with a revelation, Acts 11:28. And it evidently preceded the death of Herod, described in the following chapter. If the crucifixion was later than 30 A.D., the 14 years would not fit, and that becomes a problem.
Doug
That's the sort of info I like :winkgrin:
Indeed, many sources claim a 44AD death (March)
But some 43 AD
http://doig.net/NTC04.html
and died on the fifth day. Agrippa I died of his illness on September 28, 43 CE (43T).
There have been other suggestions for dating Agrippa's death.
However, these festivals every fifth year would have fallen on March 5, 42 or 47 CE, not in 43 or 44 CE.
According to Daniel R. Schwartz, Agrippa I: the last king of Judaea (http://books.google.ca/books?id=exBKKcXH_SQC) pp. 109-110, the games were initiated 10/9 BC and they were held every 4th year. Josephus says "every fifth year" but Schwartz explained this as ancient 'inclusive' parlance, "the equivalent of our 'quadrennial.' Thus, for example, the Olympic Games too could be so described." [Note 11, p. 109]
43/44 AD was the 14th celebration of the Caesarean games. Schwartz says "In summary, it appears that Agrippa died between September/October (Tishri) 43 and January/Febrruary 44, and most probably at the very beginning of this period, in the course of, or shortly after, a Caesarean festival founded by his granddfather in honor of Augustus." [p. 111.]
I still have problems fully understanding it.
Galatians 1:11-21: Paul writes that he was converted. Went to Arabia and later back to Damascus. Three years later Pauls goes to Jerusalem. Then he goes to Syria.
Galatians 2:1 14 year later. So it already totals of 17 years.
-----
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%207:57-8:3&version=NIV
Saul (still unconverted) helped stoning Stephan. That even usually is dated 34-35AD.
Obviously 14 years (or 17) later is way beyond Agrippa's death in 44AD.
----
Paul's conversion is usually dated 33-36AD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_Paul_the_Apostle
----
So....
a] Paul's conversion seems to be years after Jesus death.
b] What verse mentions the 14th year of Paul was Agrippa's year of death?
:dontknow:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 06, 2011, 09:29:36 AM
Quote from: Doug on December 06, 2011, 01:42:42 AM
Why would the Scripture say that Christ is to reign forever, if his reign is only to be for a mere "watch in the night"?
Jesus rules for an age and then He hands over His kingdom to Father.
:2c:
1 Corinthians 15:22-24
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Paul connects the resurrection from the dead with men becoming subject to God. This idea is also present in Revelation 20:4, where those who are
beheaded reign with Christ, and for them, Satan is bound and cast into the bottomless pit.
Beheading is a figure of being subject to Christ.
The idea that the Lord has to rule on earth for 1,000 years, at Jerusalem, is contrary to the Scriptures, that say he is to reign
in heaven, until all his enemies are subject to him. The apostle Peter said to the Jews:
Acts 3:20-21
And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
And Jesus himself said,
Luke 20:42-43
And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
This is also quoted in Hebrews:
Hebrews 10:12-13
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
How could Jesus be sitting upon a throne in the earthly Jerusalem, when Satan is loosed out of his prison and goes out to deceive the nations of the world, to gather them together to battle against the saints, at the end of thousand years?
It says Jesus remains in heaven, and at God's right hand, "till his enemies be made his footstool." The Premillennialists make these Scriptures contradict. Their interpretation of the thousand years in Revelation 20 is flawed. They view these scriptures with "eyes like the eyes of a man," a human viewpoint, not the divine one. "Eyes like the eyes of a man" are a characteristic of the "little horn" of Daniel 7. They misinterpret the prophecy of Revelation 20, as they believe in an earthly, carnal, visible kingdom, where ethnic Jews are doted on by Gentiles.
In fact, the prophecy says the saints who are
beheaded reign with Christ for a thousand years, not that Christ's reign is for a thousand years upon the earth. Christ's reign is in heaven; those who reign with him "sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." [Ephesians 2:6] This is during the lives of the saints in
this age, not in a future Millennium. It is called a thousand years because it is a "watch in the night." The present age is called "night," but the saints who reign with Christ are "children of the day."
Doug
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 06, 2011, 02:45:26 PM
Quote from: Doug on December 05, 2011, 03:25:24 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 05, 2011, 03:03:00 PM
Quote from: Doug on December 05, 2011, 12:23:46 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2011, 11:54:11 PM
Quote from: Doug on December 04, 2011, 08:30:01 PMA 30 AD date is reasonable IMO. It also fits in with the information Paul gave about the time when he was converted which tends to support an early date for the crucifixion rather than one of the later dates.
What verses are you refering to?
Acts 9, 11:30, 12:23, Galatians 1:15 - 2:9
Herod Agrippa died 44 A.D. The problem is to fit the 14 years that Paul mentioned in Galatians 2:1 into the period from his conversion, to his visit to Jerusalem mentioned in Acts 11:30. This visit was associated with a revelation, Acts 11:28. And it evidently preceded the death of Herod, described in the following chapter. If the crucifixion was later than 30 A.D., the 14 years would not fit, and that becomes a problem.
Doug
That's the sort of info I like :winkgrin:
Indeed, many sources claim a 44AD death (March)
But some 43 AD
http://doig.net/NTC04.html
and died on the fifth day. Agrippa I died of his illness on September 28, 43 CE (43T).
There have been other suggestions for dating Agrippa's death.
However, these festivals every fifth year would have fallen on March 5, 42 or 47 CE, not in 43 or 44 CE.
According to Daniel R. Schwartz, Agrippa I: the last king of Judaea (http://books.google.ca/books?id=exBKKcXH_SQC) pp. 109-110, the games were initiated 10/9 BC and they were held every 4th year. Josephus says "every fifth year" but Schwartz explained this as ancient 'inclusive' parlance, "the equivalent of our 'quadrennial.' Thus, for example, the Olympic Games too could be so described." [Note 11, p. 109]
43/44 AD was the 14th celebration of the Caesarean games. Schwartz says "In summary, it appears that Agrippa died between September/October (Tishri) 43 and January/Febrruary 44, and most probably at the very beginning of this period, in the course of, or shortly after, a Caesarean festival founded by his granddfather in honor of Augustus." [p. 111.]
I still have problems fully understanding it.
Galatians 1:11-21: Paul writes that he was converted. Went to Arabia and later back to Damascus. Three years later Pauls goes to Jerusalem. Then he goes to Syria.
Galatians 2:1 14 year later. So it already totals of 17 years.
Galatians 1:15
But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
Galatians 2:1
Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
When Paul wrote "fourteen years later" in 2:1, he evidently refers back to the time of his conversion mentioned in 1:15. It means 14 years after his conversion. And he counts inclusively; the year he was converted was the first year, and the year he returned to Jerusalem the 14th, both were partial years counted as a year.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 06, 2011, 02:45:26 PM
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http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%207:57-8:3&version=NIV
Saul (still unconverted) helped stoning Stephan. That even usually is dated 34-35AD.
Some of the preterists say that, but it is misguided IMO. There is no date mentioned in Luke's account. It could have been in 30 AD, or 31 AD. The New Testament does not say that the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 ended in the first century. That suggests they did not, or else the apostles would have noticed.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 06, 2011, 02:45:26 PM
Obviously 14 years (or 17) later is way beyond Agrippa's death in 44AD.
----
Paul's conversion is usually dated 33-36AD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_Paul_the_Apostle
----
So....
a] Paul's conversion seems to be years after Jesus death.
b] What verse mentions the 14th year of Paul was Agrippa's year of death?
:dontknow:
Paul's conversion must have been very soon after the crucifixion, within about a year or two, IMO. His visit to Jerusalem in Acts 11:30 was before the death of Herod, Acts 12:1. It seems to be the visit mentioned in Galatians 2:1-2, as a "revelation" is connected with the visit in Acts 11, and also in Galatians 2:2.
Doug
I have a simple question, all the great information (and it is a lot) on a "rapture," or "caught up" or "harpazō " is there any proof of this phenomenon taking place in the natural? Or is this a Charismatic and Fundamentalist interruption and assumption that this event will happen?
Holding my breath :bigGrin:
At the end of the first two "woes" described in Revelation 9, John writes, "And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts." [Vs 20-21]
The two woes, the scorpion-locusts and the great army of horses and horsemen, did not cause the world to repent. What does that imply about those two woes? Perhaps they are symbolic descriptions of people who seeking to accomplish that; the first woe, by threats of unending infernal torment and hell fire directed at unbelievers, and the second, by their "fiery preaching" and flawed interpretations of prophecy, represented by the tails which were like serpents, having heads. Tails are connected to prophets that teach lies, in Isaiah 9:15. Horses are symbolic of people with no understanding, Psalm 32:9.
So all the threats, and the missionary efforts of various denominations, and religious ministries, and societies, and all the disputing about theology, does not lead to the hoped-for revival, and the repentance that would result in lasting peace. Why does John tell us that, at this point in his prophecy? It seems to set things up for the third woe, which is the seventh trumpet, described in chapter 11. Perhaps this is the woe that accomplishes what the others could not.
It involves the resurrection of the saints, those that are written in the book of life, raised up at the last trump. Their mission is stated in Jude 1:14-15, "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."
This seems to say that they will bring about the repentance that the first two woes failed to accomplish.
Doug
You guys are really into the books and theological time tables ain't cha ? Ya all got any thing that is substantial and solid or do you guys just deal in supposition? Of course this is only my opinion> :laughing7:
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 07, 2011, 07:21:15 AM
You guys are really into the books and theological time tables ain't cha ? Ya all got any thing that is substantial and solid or do you guys just deal in supposition? Of course this is only my opinion> :laughing7:
Luke 3:1-2
1 In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar--when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene
2 during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert.
Why are all those persons mentioned?
Luke 1
8 Once when Zechariah's division was on duty and he was serving as priest before God
23 When his time of service was completed, he returned home.
24 After this his wife Elizabeth became pregnant and for five months remained in seclusion.
Why is that event dated?
Why are none Hebrew rulers mentioned in the OT?
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 07, 2011, 03:12:02 AM
I have a simple question, all the great information (and it is a lot) on a "rapture," or "caught up" or "harpazō " is there any proof of this phenomenon taking place in the natural? Or is this a Charismatic and Fundamentalist interruption and assumption that this event will happen?
Holding my breath :bigGrin:
Too late in the day for me (almost 5am.) So...just to mention a poorly translated verse to answer you. "The kingdom of God suffereth violence and the violent
take (
harpazo) it by force."
Take here is the one N.T. example of
harpazo being used concerning human activity. Men forcibly
seize (
harpazo) the kingdom. They
possess (
harpazo) it by force. If a gang of pirates came into town and, took by force whatever they desired as their own possession, this would be an examle of the use of the word
harpazo.
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 07, 2011, 03:12:02 AM
I have a simple question, all the great information (and it is a lot) on a "rapture," or "caught up" or "harpazō " is there any proof of this phenomenon taking place in the natural? Or is this a Charismatic and Fundamentalist interruption and assumption that this event will happen?
Holding my breath :bigGrin:
Many saw that the RCC persecution of dissidents (later called Protestants) throughout the Church Age was the persecution of the saints portrayed in the book of Revelation. It was commonly believed that the Papal system itself was "Antichrist," the "little horn" coming out of the great iron (Roman) beast in Daniel 7:20.
The Roman Church was, of course, stung by this criticism. They could not deny their policy of burning dissidents at the stake, for this was openly discussed even by Roman bishops, cardinals, and the popes themselves.
Neither could they deny the fact that the Roman Church was an extension of the Roman Empire, for the Church assumed power when the old Roman government fell in 476 A.D. The Protestant reformers were quick to point out the Papal boast of having the power to overrule the precepts of the apostles and of Jesus Christ Himself. These papal decrees were a perfect match with what Daniel wrote about the "little horn" in Dan. 7:20, " that horn [governmental power] which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts." But what about for example Tabernacles.....?
To deflect all that criticism a Spanish Jesuit wrote a book that places the rapture in the future. That way it's impossible that RCC is the beast system.
Regardless how good or bad the RCC is it's not a church in the Biblical definition. congregation, not the organization or the building.
One of the main flaws of many "theory builders" is that they have little knowledge of the Jewish feasts. And if they do they dismiss them as "done away" laws.
But in reality the 3 harvest feasts are 3 prophesies of His coming. The first one Passover everybody knows about (under the pagan name Easter).
That was His first coming.
YLT1 Thessalonians 415 for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living--who do remain over to the presence of the Lord--may not precede those asleep,
16 because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,
17 then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;
The verse shows an order. First the dead and then (next) those who are alive. The big question is when is "next"? 1 second later? A day? A month? A year?...
Many have a opinion on that. But based on what? Doctrine or a bunch of verses?
Meet (in Greek) means 'meet and return with an escort'.
YLTMatthew 251 `Then shall the reign of the heavens be likened to ten virgins, who, having taken their lamps, went forth to meet the bridegroom;
2 and five of them were prudent, and five foolish;
3 they who were foolish having taken their lamps, did not take with themselves oil;
4 and the prudent took oil in their vessels, with their lamps.
5 `And the bridegroom tarrying, they all nodded and were sleeping,
6 and in the middle of the night a cry was made, Lo, the bridegroom doth come; go ye forth to meet him.
7 `Then rose all those virgins, and trimmed their lamps,
8 and the foolish said to the prudent, Give us of your oil, because our lamps are going out;
The virgins are talking with each other. They are in the same room.
9 and the prudent answered, saying--Lest there may not be sufficient for us and you, go ye rather unto those selling, and buy for yourselves.
10 `And while they are going away to buy, the bridegroom came, and those ready went in with him to the marriage-feasts, and the door was shut;
The 5 foolish virgins returned to the same room but the door was shut
11 and afterwards come also do the rest of the virgins, saying, Sir, sir, open to us;
The groom was INSIDE the room. Maybe the wise virgins walked a mile to the groom with their lamps but that's not the point. They are now back in exactly the same place they were before. It's the groom that's at another place.
So if that represents the rapture it isn't the wise going to Jesus but Jesus going to the wise....
A similar situation in this verse:
YLTActs 2815 and thence, the brethren having heard the things concerning us, came forth to meet us, unto Appii Forum, and Three Taverns--whom Paul having seen, having given thanks to God, took courage.
Paul (the groom) came from Jerusalem. The believers (the 5 virgins) came from Rome (=the room) and took Paul back to Rome.
The whole point of meeting Jesus in the air is that the believer go to Jesus to escort Him back to earth.
Another verse that is used to support the idea that saints are raptured away before the tribulation starts:
YLTRevelation 714 and I have said to him, `Sir, thou hast known;' and he said to me, `These are those who are coming out of the great tribulation, and they did wash their robes, and they made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb;
==>The verse simply states they come out of it. Not that they escape it. In fact to come out of something you have to be in it.
Just read the blue parts of the verses below.
YLTMatthew 2429 `And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken;
30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory;
31 and he shall send his messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens unto the ends thereof.
Below another set of verse that is used to prove saints are raptured away. But proves the opposite...
It are the ones that were eating, drinking and marrying that were took away by the flood. Not believer Noach.
YLTMatthew 2437 and as the days of Noah--so shall be also the presence of the Son of Man;
38 for as they were, in the days before the flood, eating, and drinking, marrying, and giving in marriage, till the day Noah entered into the ark,
39 and they did not know till the flood came and took all away; so shall be also the presence of the Son of Man.
40 Then two men shall be in the field, the one is received, and the one is left;
YLTGenesis 224 therefore doth a man leave his father and his mother, and hath cleaved unto his wife, and they have become one flesh.
==> The groom leaves his parents not the bride...
The whole point of the so called rapture is that Jesus returns to earth to establish His kingdom. The overcomers see Him approaching and run to Him to walk Him to earth. Those who have a dog and where away a few days will understand that principle. The dog will celebrate the feast of
barking Trumpets. :winkgrin:
the last trump...brings about 'CONVICTION" to the prince of this world[I testify that their deeds are evil] the image of the corruptible openly exposed
judged/condemned to die...so the incorruptible may live...the 'change' I kill and I make alive....I give nations in your stead....Israel is my first born son....
offspring of viper put to death....so that sons of Glory may live[offspring of viper killed offspring of God to seize the kingdom] two wittnesses.....however they
would harm them they should be harmed Rev 11;5
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 07, 2011, 10:43:04 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 07, 2011, 07:21:15 AM
You guys are really into the books and theological time tables ain't cha ? Ya all got any thing that is substantial and solid or do you guys just deal in supposition? Of course this is only my opinion> :laughing7:
Luke 3:1-2
1 In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar--when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene
2 during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert.
Why are all those persons mentioned?
No doubt it is a significant date, as it is connected with the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel.
At the end of the first two sections, Daniel said, the Messiah would appear. There are many schemes that attempt to show how it was fulfilled, using various start dates, and arriving at various times near the time of Christ. Some point to his birth, some to the start of his ministry, some to end of it.
The one that I think is the best begins with the decree of Cyrus in about 538 BC. The first section of seven weeks consists of seven weeks of leap years having 13 months. This section could be any of 131, 132, or 133 years, as in the Jewish and Babylonian calendar, the years with an extra month occur every 2 or 3 years.
The end of the first section, and the beginning of the second, could occur in 406 BC, and the second section most likely consists or 62 sabbatical cycles of the Jews, which is also "seven times" where a "time" is 62 years.
In this scheme, the first two sections of the seventy weeks came to an end in about 28 AD, in the precise time that Luke specified for the ministry of Jesus, and probably within a few months of the date he gave for the ministry of John the Baptist.
This seems to me to be fairly foolproof. It is a much superior interpretation, compared to that of the dispensationalists, such as that proposed by Sir William Anderson, with his spurious assumption of 360 day years, and his flawed calculations, that had to be revised by the professors at Dallas Theological Seminary, as they discovered that Anderson's calculation was wrong by as much as a year. And besides, it pointed to a date that seemed far too late to fit the criteria provided in the New Testament.
So while the scoffers may have had reason to sneer at Anderson's work, there is no reason to sneer at the evidence that I have provided above; if there is a flaw, let's hear where it lies. The fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy about the coming of Christ is substantial and
solid proof of the Gospel.
Doug
Quote from: Doug on December 07, 2011, 04:10:11 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 07, 2011, 10:43:04 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 07, 2011, 07:21:15 AM
You guys are really into the books and theological time tables ain't cha ? Ya all got any thing that is substantial and solid or do you guys just deal in supposition? Of course this is only my opinion> :laughing7:
Luke 3:1-2
1 In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar--when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene
2 during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert.
Why are all those persons mentioned?
No doubt it is a significant date, as it is connected with the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel.
I know Doug.
It was a rethorical question. At least for me. But perhaps those that find dating events a total waste time it looks like a real question :winkgrin:
Question to Micah, and other who think dating event is a waste of time:
Luke 3:1-2
1 In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar--when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene
2 during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert.
Why, in your opion, did the HS inpire the names of those people?
Why not for example: Jesus was baptised.
Imo the intention of HS was more that wasting paper, ink and time :2c:
:2c:
:cloud9: Good point....nothing in there happens by chance. :thumbsup:
Quote from: reFORMer on December 07, 2011, 12:03:50 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 07, 2011, 03:12:02 AM
I have a simple question, all the great information (and it is a lot) on a "rapture," or "caught up" or "harpazō " is there any proof of this phenomenon taking place in the natural? Or is this a Charismatic and Fundamentalist interruption and assumption that this event will happen?
Holding my breath :bigGrin:
Too late in the day for me (almost 5am.) So...just to mention a poorly translated verse to answer you. "The kingdom of God suffereth violence and the violent take (harpazo) it by force." Take here is the one N.T. example of harpazo being used concerning human activity. Men forcibly seize (harpazo) the kingdom. They possess (harpazo) it by force. If a gang of pirates came into town and, took by force whatever they desired as their own possession, this would be an examle of the use of the word harpazo.
Matthew 11:12
And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
A couple of points, that this Scripture suggests.
First, in this saying, Jesus evidently associated his ministry with that of John the Baptist.
This may be significant, in connection with determining the duration of his ministry. It is often said that his ministry spans three and a half years. This may work out if we include the ministry of John. Luke gives the date for the beginning of John's ministry. This suggests it is at least possible, and worth considering, that the first two sections of the 70 weeks came to an end, and the seventieth week began at the beginning of the ministry of John. Perhaps the three and a half years began then, and these were the first half of the seventieth week. This would explain the significance of the phrase, "from the days of John the Baptist until now..."
Secondly, about the violence that Jesus spoke of. It may be, that he was speaking of the violence that is involved in overcoming Satan, and not violence against others.
For example, Jesus said,
Matthew 5:29-30
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into gehenna.
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into gehenna.
These acts look like violence to me. Perhaps he meant them figuratively. Was it the violence he referred to in Matthew 11:12? Paul said,
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
To be "crucified" is rather violent. But this is certainly meant figuratively.
Galatians 5:24
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
The same comment applies here. And similar things could be said about circumcision.
Philippians 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
This circumcision is figurative and spiritual, but the figure is somewhat violent.
Another example of spiritual "violence" is in Revelation 20.
Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
To become "beheaded" is quite a violent figure, and may be the kind of violence Jesus referred to. IMO it is similar to the others mentioned above, and it is a metaphor representing submission to Christ.
Here is another comment about the "week" in which Christ confirms the covenant, the seventieth week. The whole age of the church is represented by a time, times and a half, or a symbolic three and a half years, to relate it to the
first half week, the ministry of Jesus. In the last half week, Jesus
continues to confirm the covenant, as he did when he was here on earth and gave his life for the church.
Doug
Again, by the author, deleted, I care not to climb the wall.
The mysteries contained in the book of Revelation are not understood by the natural mind. The great number and variety of interpretations attests to that. And the apostle Paul wrote: "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." [1 Corinthians 2:14]
Some of the critical scholars supposed that they could obtain a superior understanding of prophecy, by learning Greek or Hebrew. They rejected the idea that the spirit of Christ was needed, to give them understanding, so they might properly interpret prophecy, which seems to be implied in Paul's statement above. They assumed that the Scriptures should be studied like any other ancient document, and that is what they taught. They stood aloof, as academics, and scholars, rather than believers. To believe in miracles, they said, is unscientific. And belief in inspiration was put in that category too. They sought the approval of other scholars. Their approach was typified by those Jews in the days of Antiochus IV, who wore Greek hats, and hid their circumcision, and admired the customs of the Greeks. These scholars took pride in the fact they were Gentiles, both in the flesh, and in spirit.
Is knowledge of Greek or Hebrew really the key to understanding the prophecies? Hardly; the experts do not agree. These scholars are found on opposite sides, in almost every significant issue. On the interpretation of Revelation 20, the scholars are divided. Some support Premillennialism, some Amillenniasm, some Postmillennialism. There is also something called Bi-millennialism.
Bi-millennialism was supported by John Wesley.
Wesley followed the views of Johann Albrecht Bengel (1687-1752), author of Exegetical Annotations on the New Testament or the "Gnomon."
Bengel supported the idea of a literal thousand year reign, after the return of Christ, and the destruction of the beast. It was he who made it "respectable." Bengel vigorously opposed and attacked the older view that said the thousand year reign was a time when the church would enjoy prolonged tranquility on the earth.
Wesley quoted extensively from Bengel's works in his writings on prophecy. But Wesley's view that there were two millenniums said that there would be a thousand years in which "the promises concerning the flourishing state of the Church" would be fulfilled, followed by another thousand years when the saints reigned in heaven, while "men on earth will be careless and secure."
Each of the two thousand year periods were invisible and they could not be discerned by men on earth. He said, "The small time, and the second thousand years, begin at the same point, immediately after the first thousand. But neither the beginning of the first, nor of the second thousand, will be known to the men upon earth, as both the imprisonment of Satan and his loosing are transacted in the invisible world."
Wesley's idea might be viewed as an attempt at a compromise, between the two theories, (1) that of Bengel, which equates more to Premillennialism, and (2) the more traditional view of Postmillennialism.
Most theories of the Millennium view the thousand years as universal, applying to the whole world at the same time, which is a normal and natural way to understand time. But I have suggested that the number is symbolic, and the thousand years applies to individuals, and is personal rather than universal. Everyone who believes the gospel, has been assigned a figurative "thousand years," and an earnest of the Spirit, and Christ has said, "occupy till I come." [Luke 19:13] The reign of the saints with Christ is that part of their lives during the present age, in which they yield to Him as their Lord, which is represented figuratively by "beheading" in Revelation 20:4.
The view that I have outlined does not fit the usual categories, Premillennialism, Amillennialism, or Postmillennialism. Perhaps another label could be used for it, such as "discrete Millennialism."
Doug
Sorry Doug . . but for me, you're totally contradicting yourself with this one. On the one end you go into great detail piecing together natural events with spiritual prophecies . . .then you turn around and say that the mysteries of Revelation can not be understood by the natural mind. Your entire thesis isn't any different from the traditions of men who also perceive that the things in Daniel, Matthew 24 and Revelation are all speaking to a time yet to come . . .death, doom and gloom . . .it's all about destruction of men. Your rendition is merely another arrow in the quiver with all the others out there isn't it? Where is life in yours? Where's the celebration? Where's the resurrection of life, truth . . .where's the effects of the cross?
It's as if the cross didn't exist. We lay claim that where sin is, grace abounds even more . . .while at the same time, we also declare that in the end, God is going to bring in his mop bucket and slaughter all of the sinful people. So which is it going to be? Grace? Or Destruction?
Quote from: Nathan on December 10, 2011, 01:09:10 AM
Sorry Doug . . but for me, you're totally contradicting yourself with this one. On the one end you go into great detail piecing together natural events with spiritual prophecies . . .then you turn around and say that the mysteries of Revelation can not be understood by the natural mind. Your entire thesis isn't any different from the traditions of men
...
Nathan does not demonstrate that anything that I wrote is contradictory. Neither does he offer any alternative explanation of the thousand years, or the time periods mentioned by Daniel.
Preterists are notorious for switching their positions. Witness Firmin Abauzit, Robert Townley, and Philip S. Desprez, all of whom recanted, after publishing preterist books. In recent years, several prominent preterists have recanted. Todd Dennis, author of the Preterist Archive website, abandoned preterism, and embraced idealism.
The thousand years is especially difficult item for preterism. It seems to span too great a time, to fit into the first century. Many preterists want everything in prophecy to refer to things in the past, so they can say all prophecy has been fulfilled already, and they cram as much of the book Revelation as they can, into the first century.
There is much variety in their interpretive schemes. Some preterists are Amillennial, some Postmillennial. Moses Stuart seems to have retained a tentative belief in a future Millennium.
James Stuart Russell, writing about Revelation 20, said, "we do not pretend to feel any confidence in the latter portion of our exegesis." He put the binding of Satan and the thousand year reign of the saints in the future, and said "This we believe to be the sole instance in the whole book of an excursion into distant futurity; and we are disposed to regard the whole parenthesis as relating to matters still future and unfilfilled." [The Parousia, 1878. p. 523]
Russell suggested that Revelation 20:7-10 could be viewed as a "parenthesis" in the prophecy. That is a bit like cutting those verses out from the book, which Revelation 22:19 warns people not to do. "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
What confidence can one have in such tenuous opinions? Incredibly, R. C. Sproul seems to have based much of his book promoting preterism on the writings of Russell. According to a reviewer of
The Last Days Acccording to Jesus by R.C. Sproul, [Baker Book House, 2000.] "This position is known as orthodox or partial preterism; however, Dr. Sproul refers extensively to the writings of a hyper-preterist James Stuart Russell. Although he clearly distances himself from hyper-preterism - which is a damnable heresy that insists that the resurrection and final judgement took place in 70 A.D., consequently, it denies the resurrection of the body (if this is right then the Christian faith is useless 1 Cor. 15:12-58) which is part of Biblical salvation - I would seriously question the wisdom of referring so much to the works of a heretic."
http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/s/sproul-rc_sr.html (http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/s/sproul-rc_sr.html)
On the Preterist Archive site, Samuel Lee (1783-1852), Regius Professor of Hebrew at Cambridge, is called "
Number One All-Time Preterist." One writer says: "Lee teaches that 'the prophecies of the Apocalypse' -- and everywhere else in the Bible -- have 'already been fulfilled.'" And, "Lee builds nearly everything around the seventy weeks of Daniel 9, not as a definite chronological term but as an indefinite period. He makes the three and a half times of Daniel 7 coincident with the last of Daniel's seventy mystical weeks, and comprehends within it the two catastrophes - first the fall of Jerusalem and the reprobate Jewish nation, and then the heathen Roman as God's instrument for desolating Jerusalem. So the three and a half times is the last half of Daniel's seventieth week. [1851 ed, pp. 69,70]"
Lee presented his views in: The Events and Times of the Visions of Daniel and St. John.
http://www.archive.org/details/eventsandtimesv00leegoog
(http://www.archive.org/details/eventsandtimesv00leegoog)
In this work, Lee identified the little horn of Daniel 7 with heathen Rome.
In Lee's scheme, the 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27 extended from the resurrection of Jesus to the destruction of Rome, and it was divided into two parts. The first part extended to the destruction of Jerusalem. The period from the resurrection of Jesus to the destruction of Jerusalem, Lee said, was the
thousand years of Revelation 20. The period from the destruction of Jerusalem to the fall of Rome, he said, was Daniel's
time, times and a half, the second half of the 70th week.
On the meaning of the thousand years of Revelation 20:2-9, he wrote, [pp. 42-43]
Now we know of no instance whatever, in which the saints were to be given into the hand of Satan, or his Agent the Antichrist, but that in which the Little Horn should make war with them and prevail for a time, times and a half. Scripture knows of no other, how differently soever it may have expressed itself on this: and the period of this we have already determined to be, the latter mystical portion of Daniel's seventieth week. But, according to the place just cited, this must come immediately after the thousand years', or millenial, reign of the saints; and if so, then also must this millenium itself have been the former portion of this week: that is, the period which elapsed from the resurrection of Christ to the fall of Jerusalem; and, therefore, Satan must have been so bound during this period.
In a footnote he says, referring to the war of the Little Horn against the saints:
But this war must, of necessity, be that spoken of in Rev. xi. 7, and this, again, must be that which should be made by the Little Horn: but this Little Horn symbolized heathen Rome. Here again, ver. 3, the witnesses were to prophecy 1260 days: i.e. before this war should be made against them: this 1260 days must, therefore, mark the period of the Apostolic preaching, i. e. up to the fall of Jerusalem; for soon after this the persecution of the Roman power began. And, accordingly, this 1260 days cannot but mark the period designated above by 1000 years. Again, ver. 9, these witnesses are to be considered as dead for three and a-half days: i.e. after the fall of Jerusalem: but this period is designated in ver. 2 by forty-two months: each of these numbers, therefore, necessarily marks the last portion of Daniel's seventieth week: and, accordingly, when this has expired (ver. 15) the kingdom under the whole heaven has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ; and this is to continue for ever. See a repetition of this in ch. xii. 6--12. Again, 1260 days are assigned to the woman in the wilderness; but in verse 1 4 this period is a time, times, and a-half: i. e. three and a-half. These two designations must, therefore, mark the same period: i. e. from the fall of Jerusalem to the end of Daniel's seventieth week: and this is given as three and a-half days, as just noticed. Again, ch. xiii. 5, 6, the Beast blasphemes God: i. e. Daniel's Little Horn, (ch. vii. viii.) and this for forty- two months: i. e. as before, during the last mystical three and a-half days of Daniel's last week. But this Little Horn was heathen Rome, and during this period (ch. xi. 2) Jerusalem was to be trodden down of the Gentiles: and at the close of it this Little Horn, heathen Rome, was to fall, and then it did fall.
Referring to 2 Peter 3:8, Lee wrote: [pp. 44-45]
The term a thousand years, put for a day, and vice versa, shews, beyond all doubt, that this could be no chronological period; and, from the particulars here brought before us, it must have designated the period, within which St. Peter and his coadjutors possessed the power to cast out devils, and to trample upon all the power of the enemy (Satan), who had been so bound by Christ, that he could by no means touch or injure their spiritual rule, or victorious warfare. They, and their fellow-labourers did, therefore, thus rule and reign with Christ during this mystical thousand years; and, when this came to its close, they were delivered into the hand of the Little Horn, to try, to purify, and to refine them, even to the end: and St. John lived long enough to experience his full share, first in this rule; and secondly, in the persecution following it. This, therefore, is of necessity the Apocalyptic Millennium: i.e. of spiritual rule, progress, and victory; for this is its true spiritual character. And so the Apostles virtually tell us; for although they died daily, yet they lived; and although poor, and were as the off-scouring of all things, yet, in a spiritual point of view, as kings they reigned, and they possessed all things.
But this Millennium was, as we have seen, to be followed, -- and actually was followed, -- by a period of persecution and most severe trial. We have seen also when it ended. St. John further informs us, that, from and after this time -- i.e. necessarily after this Millennium -- the saints should reign for ever and ever (chap. xxii. 5): i.e. as a royal Priesthood in the everlasting kingdom of the Son of Man: for this kingdom has no end in the language of prophecy, while in that of doctrine it has: viz. when the Archangel shall descend, and the dead in Christ shall rise first, and the Saints then remaining shall be changed in a moment, and caught up to meet the Lord in the air; but, be it observed, these are not the last times, days, &c, of prophecy.
We have, then, this permanent reign of the Saints falling within a period, considerably removed from the Millennium of St. John: it cannot, therefore, be the same reign; it must necessarily be another, altogether exempt from Millennial considerations: and that, which shall continue to the consummation of things: and hence, it must follow, that the Millennial doctrines current among us, are not only groundless, but, in effect, contrary and opposed to those of Holy Writ. They are Jewish and false, and such, therefore, as every Christian is bound to reject. That the Jews were to be restored within St John's Millennium is certainly true; and the fact is, they were so restored: but this was only in that holy prophetic Remnant, to whom the promises of restoration had always been made. All this has, therefore, been fulfilled to the very letter!
Once more, the Angel now, i. e. within St John's Millennial period, tells him that these "things must shortly be done:" i.e. completed: the next verse adds (7), "Behold, I come quickly." Verse 16 will enable us to see what was meant by this, in, "Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand." In Daniel (xii. 4) it is said, "Seal the book even to the time of the end." But this interval could not be less than about 530 years, which (ch. x. 14) is said to be "for many days:" it was therefore then, not at hand: but St John tells us that, in his days, the time was at hand, which should seem to imply a period less than that of 530 years. Now, however, 1800 years have past, and yet, according to some, this time said to be then at hand, has not arrived. Is not this strange? And these are the Interpreters who tell us, that the literal sense is to be taken! I conclude here, therefore, that the period and character of St John's Millennium, are sufficiently determinate, and determinable.
But it may be asked, Have we then nothing like a Millennium to expect? Have the Prophets shut us up, without grounds for expecting better things, than the world and the Church have generally witnessed? I answer, certainly they have not: they have foretold, -- and certainly the faithfulness of God has established, -- a system which, if duly put to the test, is equal to all that the deepest piety, or warmest philanthropy, can reasonably wish for or expect.
Some proofs of this have of late years been presented to us, in the Emancipation of the West-Indian Slaves; in the Christianizing of the South-Sea Islands, and in the vast multitudes daily brought into the Church in various parts of the world: and in these, all have seen an exact counterpart, but without miracle, of what primitive Christianity effected; and this even under the deadening influence of Jewish and Millennarian speculations. But, give to Christianity its potency and purity; cast to the winds the sad incumbrances so imprudently laid upon it, and the face of the world shall again present, and permanently maintain, the glorious victories of its earliest times. In principle, every Lion shall, as a Believer, have been made to lie down with the Lamb; and every Church, in which our crystal-like cleansing river is found to flow, shall find within its own streets, and on its banks, that tree of life which has been planted there, for the preservation of its own spiritual life, and for the healing and sustenance of that of Heathen. And this is, indeed, the drift and object of all its teaching. Its doctrines are the pure dictates of the Spirit, and their faithful inculcation has ever been accompanied, and rendered effectual, by His power.
And can a restoration of the Jews, or the arrival of a Jewish Millennium, really add any thing more potent to this? Light minds,-- which are ever pleased with trifles, -- may think so, and may place great confidence in the delusion, as it has too long been the case among us; while all who can feel, that there is a complete and finished work in the Gospel, and that all prophecy gives its powerful testimony to this, must, of necessity, think otherwise. Great, indeed, and admirable may have been the ingenuity, and, I doubt not, the piety of many who have laboured to produce this widely prevailing delusion, and who have been favoured with but too much encouragement and success; still, he who prefers the simple Word of God as plainly put forth in the New Testament, to the plausible additions of human ingenuity; and Apostolical Christianity in its spirit and power, to the alluring figments of Jewish artifice and superstition, will choose rather to walk by the faith so laid before him, than by the sight so vainly and groundlessly recommended in an earthly Jerusalem restored, or a visionary Canaan to be re-peopled by mere carnally descended Jews.
Lee's identification of the Little Horn with heathen Rome must be rejected, as in Daniel 7, the Roman empire is represented by the fourth beast, which had ten horns. He misinterpret the 70th week, as it is the week in which Christ confirms the covenant with many, of which Paul said, "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:" [Romans 15:8] The covenant includes the promises made to Abraham, that have been inherited by Christ. [2 Corinthians 1:20] This includes the
land promise.
Daniel says that the Little Horn would "think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time." [Daniel 7:25] The
times the horn seeks to change must be the
times mentioned in prophecy, and their true meaning.
The horn has "eyes like the eyes of a man" which I suggest, represents a human point of view. The great variety of opinions about the
time, times and a half, the
70 weeks, the
thousand years, etc., are due to, and are collectively "a human point of view" and so are represented by the "Little Horn." In Revelation 12:14-15, the phrase "a time, times and a half" links this prophecy with Daniel 7:25. Incidentally, that would identify the "Little Horn" of Daniel 7 with
Satan in Revelation 12. The "time, times and a half" is also mentioned in Daniel 12:7, where it is said that it extends to the end of the age.
In Revelation 12:15-16, a "flood" from the mouth of the serpent, that threatens to carry away the woman, gets swallowed up, when the earth opens her mouth. Here, I suggest, the earth corresponds to the "land," as in the "promised land." But the "promised land" for the saints is a heavenly country, Hebrews 11:16. It is symbolic of the spiritual promises to the saints, one of which is the promise of Jesus, that the spirit will guide the church into the truth. [John 16:13] No doubt this includes the correct interpretation of prophecy. This, I think, is the meaning of the
land or
earth, that swallows up the serpent's flood. Since this flood is evidently of a spiritual nature, being a flood of
flawed interpretations and
wrong beliefs, it is destroyed by the
truth, and disappears like a flood that is swallowed up by fissures in the ground.
Doug
Nathan does not demonstrate that anything that I wrote is contradictory. Neither does he offer any alternative explanation of the thousand years, or the time periods mentioned by Daniel
Because Nathan has already been over this and has already "demonstrated" other alternative explanations in the past. The thousand year reign is no more a literal event yet to happen any more than did Jesus literally rebuild the temple that he said he's raise up in three days. The thousand year reign is pertaining to the holy of holies . . .as is everything else Revelation eludes to. It's connected to our relationship in the REST of the Sabbath . . .
Daniel's prophecies unfolded when the entire religious system of the old covenant was completely over-run by the Romans and destroyed . . .the seventy weeks ended the day Stephen became the "first" martyr. From that time on, the time set aside for the Jews came to an end and the time of the Gentiles . . .to which Paul's ministry was specifically toward . . .had begun.
The thing here is though, you're attempt to negate a preterist is presumptuous in thinking that "your" idealism is the the only accurate rendering when the truth is, there are just as many gaps in one as there are in the other. Much of what you're sharing seems to be words of another man . . . is there not anything spiritually discerned by you as an individual? Laying all the knowledge of information you've accumulated aside, what remains? What has God revealed to you directly? If God is love, why the destruction of those Love created from the beginning?
For me, the relevancy of these prophecies are not what we take away naturally, but what we are able to discern within each of us spiritually. The thousand year rule and reigning for me is an internal experience each of us experience as Christ matures us into these truths.
Quote from: Nathan on December 12, 2011, 05:57:46 PM
Nathan does not demonstrate that anything that I wrote is contradictory. Neither does he offer any alternative explanation of the thousand years, or the time periods mentioned by Daniel
Because Nathan has already been over this and has already "demonstrated" other alternative explanations in the past. The thousand year reign is no more a literal event yet to happen any more than did Jesus literally rebuild the temple that he said he's raise up in three days. The thousand year reign is pertaining to the holy of holies . . .as is everything else Revelation eludes to. It's connected to our relationship in the REST of the Sabbath . . .
I would not disagree, that "the thousand year reign is pertaining to the holy of holies" as was suggested previously in this thread. However I have further elaborated that the thousand years is "discrete" and applies to individuals. And so I proposed the label "discrete Millennialism" for my interpretation, as an alternative to the labels Premillennialism, Postmillennialism, and Amillennialism, none of which seem quite appropriate for it.
In discrete Millennialism, the
beheading mentioned in Revelation 20:4 is a metaphor depicting submission to God. Just as
beheading applies to individuals, in a similar fashion
discrete Millennialism applies to individuals. Paul says all believers are raised up, and "sit together in heavenly places in Christ." What else could that be, but reigning with Christ?
Believers are said to be sealed with the holy Spirit. According to Paul, those who have the seal of Christ depart from iniquity. Saints who are figuratively
beheaded reign with Christ. John calls this a thousand year reign, as the number
thousand is often associated with the saints.
Daniel 7:10
A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
The lives of the saints in the present age are "discrete Millenniums." Each begins and ends at various times.
Peter said with God a day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day.
The thousand years of the saints' reigning with Christ is a "watch in the night." The present age is called a
night, but the saints are "children of the day." The time a believer remains in this world is a "watch." All believers are warned of the need to "watch." For those who fall away, and become apostate, and cease to watch, their
discrete millennial reigns come to an
end prematurely. When that happens, Satan is no longer bound for them, and is no longer restrained in a prison. He is loosed from his prison, and deceives them. They turn against the camp of the saints and the beloved city. This has happened to some, throughout the course of the church's history. There are some examples in the New Testament.
Those who are
beheaded, and reign with Christ, and endure to the end, are not affected by the second death, which is the lake of fire.
Discrete Millennialism borrows from and replaces other kinds of millennialism, and it is also a potential cure for preterism.
Quote from: Nathan on December 12, 2011, 05:57:46 PM
Daniel's prophecies unfolded when the entire religious system of the old covenant was completely over-run by the Romans and destroyed . . .the seventy weeks ended the day Stephen became the "first" martyr. From that time on, the time set aside for the Jews came to an end and the time of the Gentiles . . .to which Paul's ministry was specifically toward . . .had begun.
Can we assume the 70 weeks of Daniel ended, but that none of the apostles noticed? Would not that imply that the Spirit was negligent for not revealing it to them? Or that the apostles of the Lord were incompetent, for not including some record of it in the NT? More likely, I think, they
were watching for the end of the 70th week, but they finally concluded that it would not occur in their lifetime. Preterists usually misinterpret "this generation" and say that it means all prophecy must be fulfilled in the first century, but when Jesus mentioned "this generation," he included
himself in it. And he remains alive, so his generation
still exists to this day.
The New Testament says nothing that would connect the death of Stephen with the ending of the 70th week. Besides, the death of Stephen must have been quite soon after the crucifixion, within a year or two at the most, as shown earlier in this thread. See replies #142, 152, 154. There was no literal three and a half years after the crucifixion that could have fulfilled the 70th week. We are still in that week today, and Christ still confirms his covenant! The preterist idea that the 70th week ended in obscurity misses the fact that Jesus fulfills his covenant with many during the
whole age of the church. The last half-week of the 70th week applies to the heavenly Jerusalem, not the earthly one. The earthly Jerusalem is represented by Hagar the Egyptian, who was cast out of Abraham's house. [See Galatians 4:24-26] Jerusalem was raised up, to heaven, when Jesus ascended, as described in Acts 1, and so fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah 2:1-3. The preterists appear to be blind to this.
The portion of the 70th week that applies to the heavenly city is not fulfilled in terms of earth days, earth months, earth years, or earth time of any sort, as the heavenly Jerusalem is spiritual. Earthly units of time and linear dimensions do not apply to it.
Quote from: Nathan on December 12, 2011, 05:57:46 PM
The thing here is though, you're attempt to negate a preterist is presumptuous in thinking that "your" idealism is the the only accurate rendering when the truth is, there are just as many gaps in one as there are in the other. Much of what you're sharing seems to be words of another man . . . is there not anything spiritually discerned by you as an individual? Laying all the knowledge of information you've accumulated aside, what remains? What has God revealed to you directly? If God is love, why the destruction of those Love created from the beginning?
For me, the relevancy of these prophecies are not what we take away naturally, but what we are able to discern within each of us spiritually. The thousand year rule and reigning for me is an internal experience each of us experience as Christ matures us into these truths.
I think "discrete Millennialism" is new terminology. Have you ever heard of it before? The thousand year reign is discrete, as it applies to individuals. I agree that you could call it an internal experience for each of us.
Doug
Can we assume the 70 weeks of Daniel ended, but that none of the apostles noticed? Would not that imply that the Spirit was negligent for not revealing it to them? Or that the apostles of the Lord were incompetent, for not including some record of it in the NT? More likely, I think, they were watching for the end of the 70th week, but they finally concluded that it would not occur in their lifetime. Preterists usually misinterpret "this generation" and say that it means all prophecy must be fulfilled in the first century, but when Jesus mentioned "this generation," he included himself in it. And he remains alive, so his generation still exists to this day.
I think there's too much reasoning in all of this. Just because the apostles didn't see it doesn't have anything to do with it unfolding . . .Matthew 24 "was" Jesus telling them, he even directly referred to Daniel's prophecy "to" them. It's not because it wasn't shared, it was because it wasn't heard. Nor was it seen. That's why Paul refers to spiritual principles as "mysteries". And I've seen many superimpose the "this generation" clause for a 2000 gap but it's not fitting at all.
First of all, when Daniel wrote his book, he was told to seal it up because it wasn't for HIS GENERATION . . . this is indicating that IF what Jesus was saying wasn't for THEIR generation, he would have specified such. But instead, he was telling them PLAINLY that THEY were the ones that were going to see those things unfold. It was all connected with the removal of the levitical system that is the core of the old covenant so he could make way for the Melkezedek lineage to be established. Their rejection of the cross and their rejection to let go of the levitical system is what led to their own demise. It really does have noting to do with us literally . .. but everything to do with us spiritually.
The 1000 years could be used for a second harvest for Christians. In many ways the second coming of Christ(or third coming if you count he returns before greatribulation) parallels the imagery of the 1000 year millenium reign.
For example Jesus says to the Jews ye shall be hated of all nations.
In God and Magog rev20 all the nations are gathered to destroy the holy city restored Jerusalem.
So if this is true it does explain the logic behind it. That God desires another harvest of people, before sending the disobedient into the lake of fire.
But I still press in on the fact that at the end of the book, John was told to leave the book open . . .Daniel was told to seal his up because it wasn't for his time . . .John was told to leave his open because the time for those things to unfold had already begun. there is no indication that the things happening would continue happening for another 2000 years . . in fact, it stated that the time would be cut short . . . yet people want to stretch it all the way across from "that" generation to this one, 2000 years removed. The events people interpret here are almost always tied into death and destruction. As people who believe God wouldn't send his loved created beings into a state of eternal torment, we're okay with a God calling forth our existence for our own destruction in the end? Point being, I still contend that God is not destroying men, but he's destroying man in men.
That is a fair point and I have seen many scriptures recently where Paul talks about this being the last hour and so forth. It almost feels as if we are in a time warp and something went wrong in the universe, but in seriousness I contend that maybe there was a resurection during Pauls day, it would be great if there were historic data on this. In fact this proves that historic data is not useless as some like preach.
But due to the multitude of scriptures that talk about the wrath of God and vengeance of God at the last day, I feel that preaching peace and safety is a risky game to play and kind of molds with evolution.
Quote from: thinktank on December 13, 2011, 09:28:09 PM
That is a fair point and I have seen many scriptures recently where Paul talks about this being the last hour and so forth. It almost feels as if we are in a time warp and something went wrong in the universe, but in seriousness I contend that maybe there was a resurection during Pauls day, it would be great if there were historic data on this.
Some in Paul's day claimed that there had been a resurrection, their names were Hymenaeus and Philetus.
2 Timothy 2:17-19
And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Doug
Quote from: Doug on December 13, 2011, 09:43:09 PM
Quote from: thinktank on December 13, 2011, 09:28:09 PM
That is a fair point and I have seen many scriptures recently where Paul talks about this being the last hour and so forth. It almost feels as if we are in a time warp and something went wrong in the universe, but in seriousness I contend that maybe there was a resurection during Pauls day, it would be great if there were historic data on this.
Some in Paul's day claimed that there had been a resurrection, their names were Hymenaeus and Philetus.
2 Timothy 2:17-19
And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Doug
Yeah I know that scripture, but it could have been after that scripture.
Also I'm not sure if the resurection would be the same as the one that is to come. Maybe Paul was expecting a different type of resurection, maybe in spirit.
Dispensationalism and preterism have a number of things in common.
- Both say the 70th week of Daniel 9 is a literal seven years.
Both deny that Daniel 9:27, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week" applies to the covenant that Christ confirms with many in the present age.
Both views suffer from oversell, or too much repetition. Saying the same things over and over and over and over again begins to sound like Christmas music in the mall.
Both misinterpret the meaning of Daniel 9:27, IMO. In some translations it says something is poured out on the desolate. This might apply to the church, the spiritual temple, which is made desolate by the false teachers and flawed interpretations; Daniel 9:24 indicates holy Spirit will be poured out on her, as this is implied by the anointing of the most holy.
Both preterists and dispensationalists need to recognize that the 70th week is symbolic and spans all the time from the ministry of Jesus to the end, so that they can eliminate the great gulf of 19 centuries that currently separates them.
Doug
Hi All,
Don't mean to butt in but I have a question. I hope someone can give me an answer.
I have wondered if there was a resurrection in Paul's day, or John's day? Wouldn't that resurrection have been a bodily resurrection? I am saying everyone would have been resurrected as Jesus was, no body left in the tomb. Or did just their spirits go up?
OK, some believe that we go on to heaven when we die but yet believe that our bodies will be resurrected at some point in time. This is where I have a problem. If there was a resurrection of bodies in John's day, why doesn't the same thing happen at a time when God chooses in the future? If we go on to heaven when we die, what happens to our bodies that are put in the ground?
If that first resurrection wasn't a bodily resurrection will all of the bodies since Adam be resurrected at the same time in the future? When does this happen? This body we have now will be changed into a spiritual body because Paul said we would PUT ON IMMORTALITY. What is the purpose of seperating the spirit from the body?
CHB
Well, for me, "my death" is only a dust particle in relation to the fulfillment of the plan of God in this realm we live in. This world of the natural is following the pattern, the preplanned intention of what has already been finished in the spirit. My natural, literal body dying is merely part of the process that leads to the completion of all things in this natural realm. I "don't" believe there have been any bodily resurrections other than those that came out of their graves the moment Jesus left his body on the cross. And even then, there's no mention or record that "those" who resurrected from their graves lived on forever and are still among us today. I believe EVERYTHING that happens in this realm is merely a sign . .a reflection of what God has done in the spirit.
Why the separation of our spirit from our bodies? That's what "death" is. it's a separation, it's the process of the curse in this realm. I see "time" as a conformity. This realm is "conformed" by the process of time. Spiritual life is outside of the reach of time. That's why it's a peace that PASSES ALL UNDERSTANDING . . .it's outside of our reach to understand with these minds of logic and reason. I believe the moment we're conceived, we become "whole" beings. I believe that's the role of the soul, it's the evidence that there is a spirit living in the confines of this body of flesh. Yet because of Adam's choices, even though we're whole now, it's limited and temporary. I believe that's why there's a "return" of our spirit to these bodies of flesh when all things are complete. We become "whole" again when we return to a glorified body . . .but it's not just the body, it's the order of everything. This realm, the atmosphere, everything "in" this place will return to it's original state of what it was BEFORE the removal of Adam and Eve from the garden . . .the spirit.
And as such, we'll return to bodies for the purpose that we'll once again be "whole" and our souls will once again manifest that wholeness as a result. Everything spiritual now will become our dominant realm and everything tangible now will become secondary . . . it's the opposite of what it is now. What you "see" with your eyes is the natural realm. What you can tangibly see is the spiritual. But in the end, that will be reversed due to the reversal of the curse that the earth continues to be bound by until the days of God's plan come to an end.
The immortality that Paul spoke of was spiritual . . .can't be seen, but "can" be experienced in spite of still being in mortal bodies of flesh. This world is "not" our home . . . Jesus told the disciples he was going to a place where they could not yet follow. And that in that place, he'd prepare a place for us so that where HE IS we may also be. Where is he? Is he not in the spirit? Another reason why I wince at those who choose to embrace the idea that Jesus is returning to "this" realm. That's not what he said, he said he's preparing a place for us in "his" realm so that we can be with him, not so that he can return to us. The thousand year millennium is all about him returning "here". I no longer can accept that. "This" realm is not meant to be dominant over the Spirit realm. The spirit realm is where the "ascended" places are that have been prepared for us. Why embrace a doctrine that has him returning "here" when he's already stated "this" is not our home, but where he's gone to is where we'll also be?
Quote from: Nathan
And as such, we'll return to bodies for the purpose that we'll once again be "whole" and our souls will once again manifest that wholeness as a result. Everything spiritual now will become our dominant realm and everything tangible now will become secondary . . . it's the opposite of what it is now. What you "see" with your eyes is the natural realm. What you can tangibly see is the spiritual. But in the end, that will be reversed due to the reversal of the curse that the earth continues to be bound by until the days of God's plan come to an end.
You don't believe all things have been fulfilled, am I correct on that? What is there left to be fulfilled? Just our bodies being resurrected? Won't Christ come back to resurrect our bodies? I guess these sound like stupid questions but I really would like to hear what you have to say about this.
Another question I just thought of. If our spirit is with Christ after we die do we have a spiritual body that looks like our physical bodies, or are we kind of like the wind without a body till ours is resurrected? Moses and Elijah comes to mind here.
CHB
Isn't it fun to try to see spiritual reality with natural imagery? Very tough but I do think God has every intention of showing us as much as we're willing to receive and able to comprehend . . .actually, that's not completely true either, I think he ALWAYS desires us to enter into the endless depths of things we just can't comprehend. The deep calls to the deep. For me, I'm not saying we'll become this literally, but I see us "as the stars in the heavens". I see my spirit as a light . . .when we enter into the heavenlies, we become the sea, the ocean of lights of others who've passed on before us .. .I think the "cloud" which consists literally of tiny crystal droplets of water is also likened to us as well. I remember a passage speaking about false teachers are like clouds without water, they give the appearance of having the capability to produce refreshing rains on others, but the reality is, they're just empty grayness . . .it causes one's mind to remain in a low state. Just like cloudy days affect our mental attitudes.
But for me, God is light, the likeness of his nature in me is spirit so I see our spirits as little flecks of light that illuminate the dark around us.
One other thing I'm trying to remind myself is, to be careful in saying things like God always . . . . or God never . . . just when I think God always works "this" way or in "that" manner . . .he changes things up. So it is the same way for me with "All" prophecies being fulfilled . . . I think "most" prophecies have been fulfilled in this realm . . . I think everything "is" complete in the spirit realm, but what that consists of . .there aren't enough words in our vocabulary that could identify with acknowledging every aspect of what that completeness actually is. But for me, because we're still living in a realm of death and decay is evidence to me that not all things are complete. Time is still in control of all things around us.
Will Christ come back to resurrect us? That's just it . . .I think he already "has" come and resurrected me. "No, I mean LITERALLY . . ."
Here's a thought . . .as much as we struggle with the idea that God lives outside of time, here's another one . . .he also lives outside of space. He doesn't "travel". Heaven isn't some far away place. It's right "here", we just can't see it from "this" side of the veil of death. Death "is" the veil in a sense. Through death, we become free from the limitations of these bodies and this realm. Let's get "reeeeeally literal here . . .most of what people think is that the dead in their graves will jump up through the dirt, brick and mortar and hook up with their spirits . . .but . . .what of those people who have been vaporized by bombs of war? What of people who've been eaten by wild animals? There aren't even any skeletal bones to resurrect at all. Those that have been cremated . . .their ashes scattered to the wind, dissolved in rivers and streams, fossilized in the layers of the earth's crust .. .most would have to be reformed, recreated, reshaped from the dust all over again.
We say these bodies are temporary, but yet in the back of our minds, it's been so ingrained in us that even though these bodies are temporary, they'll still be resurrected . . .how can they resurrect if they've been totally dispersed? What if this resurrection of the body goes beyond what "our" limited understanding has projected in the imagery of our own minds? How old will we appear to be in our resurrected states? I feel like we are just like our kids. As parents, we go out and get the top of the line toy for our kid's birthday or whatever and we're so excited for our kids that we can't wait for them to open them .. .and yet when they do . ..they spend more time playing with the box than they do with the thing we paid so much money for so they could enjoy what we perceived to be the finer things in life.
Some of these spiritual things that God gives to us kinda go down the same path, we tend to spend most of our amusement with the wrapper rather than the contents that were in it.
In this realm, we depend on visual stimulation. If I can't "see" it, then it can't exist. So, when God, who is spirit, wants to reveal his nature to us, he has to cause it to be something that can be seen . . .healing is a visual manifestation of an invisible presence. We "want" to "believe" but we rely so much on what is seen, we struggle with what isn't. But for us to see God, that's the only way vision can come to us, by seeing what's invisible. A person's body is a visual manifestation that life is manifesting inside the shell of flesh. But, it's temporary . . as is this realm.
So, what is it that get's resurrected? This body? Or one that can't be comprehended because it's a spiritual event rather than a natural one. I think emphasizing the type of body is playing with the wrapping paper. I think the contents of the gift is actually the resurrection itself. I think Jesus did more by "revealing" his true nature on the mount of transfiguration than any words could explain. He "became light". After Moses would leave God's presence, he would continue to glow from the light . . .
Until this entire realm is reversed, comprehending what kind of body we'll actually be living in will continue to be one of those mysteries. We are light as he is the Light . . .that's the closest I can come to understanding it.
Quote from: NathanWe say these bodies are temporary, but yet in the back of our minds, it's been so ingrained in us that even though these bodies are temporary, they'll still be resurrected . . .how can they resurrect if they've been totally dispersed?
DNA. Have you ever noticed how DNA is read as some huge statistical number--like only 1 person in 300 billion will have the same DNA? There are only supposedly some 7 billion on the planet [and I think that's way exaggerated] so 'we've got a match' becomes 'no one else in the universe living or dead would have this sequence.'
We are identified by a sequence, a code, that accounts for every hair on our heads, exclusive of anyone else ever born.
And the very hairs on your head are all numbered. So don't be afraid; you are more valuable to God than a whole flock of sparrows Lk 12:7
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 02:24:05 AM
DNA. Have you ever noticed how DNA is read as some huge statistical number--like only 1 person in 300 billion will have the same DNA? There are only supposedly some 7 billion on the planet [and I think that's way exaggerated] so 'we've got a match' becomes 'no one else in the universe living or dead would have this sequence.'
We are identified by a sequence, a code, that accounts for every hair on our heads, exclusive of anyone else ever born.
And the very hairs on your head are all numbered. So don't be afraid; you are more valuable to God than a whole flock of sparrows Lk 12:7
Not stating a particular stance here, other than I had a similar thought (not as well defined as yours) :thumbsup:; God can work that miracle
easily if He chooses to.
"Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh. Is anything too hard for me? Jer. 32:27
Yes, but is that resurrection or restructuring? That's what I'm trying to say here . .resurrection may not be "literally" what we think it is. It may instead be a spiritual phenomenon rather than a literal activity. We know that this realm is "lower" than the spirit realm . . .who's to say that the resurrection then isn't being ascended "from" this realm "into" the spirit?
I think we'll have a flesh and bone body like Jesus' resurrected body.
[kept alive by the quickening Spirit, but that's just my theory]
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Rom 8:23
Just a small bothersome question for me. Where does the Bible teach a resurrecting of the or a body? I'm still looking.
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
--1 Cor 15:20
If the firstfruit of a tree looks like a resurrected flesh and bone human body, the rest of the fruit from that tree will look like:
1) a porcupine quill
2) a popsicle
3) a resurrected flesh and bone human body
In Daniel, the resurrection is said to occur at a time of great tribulation.
Daniel 12:1-2
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Paul said that Christ was the "firstfruits of them that slept." A "firstfruit" is normally a pattern and a sample of the fruits that are to follow; the resurrection of Jesus was a pattern for the resurrection of all the saints.
1 Corinthians 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Jesus is the only person who has immortality at present, and he was not immortal, until he was raised up from the grave. Otherwise, he would not have been able to die. The pagan idea that humans are born with "immortal souls" is alien to Biblical Christianity, as if men have immortal souls, why would there need to be a resurrection? It would be redundant. Paul referred to Jesus, "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen." [1 Timothy 6:16]
In the book of Revelation, the 144,000 who were sealed in chapter 7 are called the "firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb" in chapter 14. They represent the saints of this age. "These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." [Revelation 14:4] The label firstfruits implies more are to follow, and in chapter 7, the remaining great multitude, "which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues," are described as "they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." I think they represent the people who are converted in the judgment. The first group, the 144,000 who are sealed, are involved in that. Paul said, "Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" [1 Corinthians 6:2]
Paul indicated there is an order to the resurrections; "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." [1 Corinthians 15:22-24]
Jesus encouraged people to seek his kingdom, and his promises. [Matthew 13:45] In Matthew 24, when he said, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:..." I believe that he meant seek the promises of God, which are represented by mountains in Scripture. That is, seek to be in the first group of the saints, rather than in the second group who have to endure the judgment.
Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Doug
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 03:48:09 AM
If the firstfruit of a tree looks like a resurrected flesh and bone human body, the rest of the fruit from that tree will look like:
1) a porcupine quill
2) a popsicle
3) a resurrected flesh and bone human body
:laugh2:
Can I play!?? If so, mark me down for a 'c'...err, '3'!... lol
We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye---at the last trumpet! [1 Cor 15]
When is the last trumpet, at the end of the age? [what some call the rapture]
And those who do not sleep--are these the ones given eternal life by Jesus? Do they wait in heaven with Jesus for the end of the age and the redemption of the body?
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. [2 Cor 5:1]
These are the ones who will return with Christ at the last trump, ten thousands of his saints as a cloud of witnesses.
Quote from: jabcat on December 14, 2011, 04:06:53 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 03:48:09 AM
If the firstfruit of a tree looks like a resurrected flesh and bone human body, the rest of the fruit from that tree will look like:
1) a porcupine quill
2) a popsicle
3) a resurrected flesh and bone human body
:laugh2:
Can I play!?? If so, mark me down for a 'c'...err, '3'!... lol
Very good. You receive a gift from Santa Handel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEnws5brUcI
Even though worms destroy this body, YET IN MY FLESH SHALL I SEE GOD.
Can't from this computer, but Lord willing, I will listen. Thanks :)
Quote from: jabcat on December 14, 2011, 04:06:53 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 03:48:09 AM
If the firstfruit of a tree looks like a resurrected flesh and bone human body, the rest of the fruit from that tree will look like:
1) a porcupine quill
2) a popsicle
3) a resurrected flesh and bone human body
:laugh2:
Can I play!?? If so, mark me down for a 'c'...err, '3'!... lol
Can one of you please give me a verse in your Bible that teaches 3)?
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 04:15:00 AM
Quote from: jabcat on December 14, 2011, 04:06:53 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 03:48:09 AM
If the firstfruit of a tree looks like a resurrected flesh and bone human body, the rest of the fruit from that tree will look like:
1) a porcupine quill
2) a popsicle
3) a resurrected flesh and bone human body
:laugh2:
Can I play!?? If so, mark me down for a 'c'...err, '3'!... lol
Very good. You receive a gift from Santa Handel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEnws5brUcI
Even though worms destroy this body, YET IN MY FLESH SHALL I SEE GOD.
Well now there is a verse that could use some thinking. So lets have a look see.
Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. (KJV)
Job 19:25 But, I, know that, my redeemer, liveth, and, as the Last over my dust, will he arise;
Job 19:26 And, though, after my skin is struck off, this followeth , yet, apart from my flesh, shall I see GOD:
Job 19:27 Whom, I myself, shall see, on my side, and, mine own eyes, shall have looked upon, and not those of a stranger. Exhausted are my deepest desires in my bosom!
(Rothrtham)
Job 19:25 For I know that my Redeemer and Vindicator lives, and at last He [the Last One] will stand upon the earth.
Job 19:26 And after my skin, even this body, has been destroyed, then from my flesh or without it I shall see God,
Job 19:27 Whom I, even I, shall see for myself and on my side! And my eyes shall behold Him, and not as a stranger! My heart pines away and is consumed within me. (Amp. Bible)
25 "But I know that my Redeemer lives, that in the end he will rise on the dust;
26 so that after my skin has been thus destroyed, then even without my flesh, I will see God. 27 I will see him for myself, my eyes, not someone else's, will behold him. My heart grows weak inside me!
27 I will see him for myself, my eyes, not someone else's, will behold him. My heart grows weak inside me!
(Complete Jewish Bible by David Stern)
Job 19:26 And though afterH310 my skinH5785 worms destroyH5362 thisH2063 body, yet in my fleshH4480 H1320 shall I seeH2372 God:H433
yet in my flesh = H4480 + H1320
H4480 first meaning is "properly a part of" meaning from or out of
H1320 means flesh
So it seems to me that he's saying he will be flesh when he sees God.
In other words, he will be seeing God from his flesh.
KJ translator got it right, imo, in my flesh is the best translation
Did you listen to that beautiful soprano? No chorus.
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 06:53:35 AM
Job 19:26 And though afterH310 my skinH5785 worms destroyH5362 thisH2063 body, yet in my fleshH4480 H1320 shall I seeH2372 God:H433
yet in my flesh = H4480 + H1320
H4480 first meaning is "properly a part of" meaning from or out of
H1320 means flesh
So it seems to me that he's saying he will be flesh when he sees God.
In other words, he will be seeing God from his flesh.
KJ translator got it right, imo, in my flesh is the best translation
So you will only accept a translation that agrees with your thinking. Got it.
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 14, 2011, 07:01:22 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 06:53:35 AM
Job 19:26 And though afterH310 my skinH5785 worms destroyH5362 thisH2063 body, yet in my fleshH4480 H1320 shall I seeH2372 God:H433
yet in my flesh = H4480 + H1320
H4480 first meaning is "properly a part of" meaning from or out of
H1320 means flesh
So it seems to me that he's saying he will be flesh when he sees God.
In other words, he will be seeing God from his flesh.
KJ translator got it right, imo, in my flesh is the best translation
So you will only accept a translation that agrees with your thinking. Got it.
No, I looked at the Hebrew and I also didn't have to search and search for obscure translations to find something that sort of not really agrees with my thinking.
NO where does that word mean 'without.' It means a part of ==as in a part of flesh--from out of my flesh I will see God
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 07:03:23 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 14, 2011, 07:01:22 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 06:53:35 AM
Job 19:26 And though afterH310 my skinH5785 worms destroyH5362 thisH2063 body, yet in my fleshH4480 H1320 shall I seeH2372 God:H433
yet in my flesh = H4480 + H1320
H4480 first meaning is "properly a part of" meaning from or out of
H1320 means flesh
So it seems to me that he's saying he will be flesh when he sees God.
In other words, he will be seeing God from his flesh.
KJ translator got it right, imo, in my flesh is the best translation
So you will only accept a translation that agrees with your thinking. Got it.
No, I looked at the Hebrew and I also didn't have to search and search for obscure translations to find something that sort of not really agrees with my thinking.
NO where does that word mean 'without.' It means a part of ==as in a part of flesh--from out of my flesh I will see God
May I just remind you up there in Post#220 I said, "Well now there is a verse that could use some thinking." And that's all I did was post several translation, I didn't say that I had an answer, I said that's a verse looking into.
This one was mentioned earlier by Molly, the 2 Cor. 5 passage. I have the Christian Bible beside me right now, which reads;
For I am aware that if my earthly tent home [my temporary home ( my present body)] is demolished, I'm going to have a building [a new body] that comes from God, a home in the Last Age among the heavens that hasn't been made by hands. For in this one [my present body] I am continually groaning, since I am continually desiring to put on, like clothes, my home that comes from heaven, and provided that I have put on these clothes [my new body], I won't be found naked [without a body]. Yes, while I am still in this tent [my present temporary body], I am continually groaning, since I am being burdened, because I don't want to be stripped [of my present body], but I want to put on the clothes [my new body], so that what is subject to dying might be swallowed up by Life.
Quote from: jabcat on December 14, 2011, 07:16:20 AM
This one was mentioned earlier by Molly, the 2 Cor. 5 passage. I have the Christian Bible beside me right now, which reads;
For I am aware that if my earthly tent home [my temporary home ( my present body)] is demolished, I'm going to have a building [a new body] that comes from God, a home in the Last Age among the heavens that hasn't been made by hands. For in this one [my present body] I am continually groaning, since I am continually desiring to put on, like clothes, my home that comes from heaven, and provided that I have put on these clothes [my new body], I won't be found naked [without a body]. Yes, while I am still in this tent [my present temporary body], I am continually groaning, since I am being burdened, because I don't want to be stripped [of my present body], but I want to put on the clothes [my new body], so that what is subject to dying might be swallowed up by Life.
Jab ==one question about that.
There he says he doesn't want to be found naked [in the afterlife?] that is, without a body.
Would that imply that it would be possible to be just a soul without a body in the afterlife?
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 14, 2011, 07:15:10 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 07:03:23 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 14, 2011, 07:01:22 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 06:53:35 AM
Job 19:26 And though afterH310 my skinH5785 worms destroyH5362 thisH2063 body, yet in my fleshH4480 H1320 shall I seeH2372 God:H433
yet in my flesh = H4480 + H1320
H4480 first meaning is "properly a part of" meaning from or out of
H1320 means flesh
So it seems to me that he's saying he will be flesh when he sees God.
In other words, he will be seeing God from his flesh.
KJ translator got it right, imo, in my flesh is the best translation
So you will only accept a translation that agrees with your thinking. Got it.
No, I looked at the Hebrew and I also didn't have to search and search for obscure translations to find something that sort of not really agrees with my thinking.
NO where does that word mean 'without.' It means a part of ==as in a part of flesh--from out of my flesh I will see God
May I just remind you up there in Post#220 I said, "Well now there is a verse that could use some thinking." And that's all I did was post several translation, I didn't say that I had an answer, I said that's a verse looking into.
OK here are some more translations for you:
New International Version (©1984)
And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God;
New Living Translation (©2007)
And after my body has decayed, yet in my body I will see God!
English Standard Version (©2001)
And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God,
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God;
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Even after my skin has been stripped off my body, I will see God in my own flesh.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And though after my skin is thus destroyed, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
American King James Version
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
American Standard Version
And after my skin, even this body , is destroyed, Then without my flesh shall I see God;
Douay-Rheims Bible
And I shall be clothed again with my skin, and in my flesh I will see my God.
Darby Bible Translation
And if after my skin this shall be destroyed, yet from out of my flesh shall I see +God;
English Revised Version
And after my skin hath been thus destroyed, yet from my flesh shall I see God:
Webster's Bible Translation
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
World English Bible
After my skin is destroyed, then in my flesh shall I see God,
Young's Literal Translation
And after my skin hath compassed this body, Then from my flesh I see God:
I as well have translations up the kazoo. Shall we post em all? I said it is a verse that would take some looking into and considering just what it is telling us. But if you have already go the answer please give it to me so I may go silently into the night. :bigGrin:
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 07:20:20 AM
Quote from: jabcat on December 14, 2011, 07:16:20 AM
This one was mentioned earlier by Molly, the 2 Cor. 5 passage. I have the Christian Bible beside me right now, which reads;
For I am aware that if my earthly tent home [my temporary home ( my present body)] is demolished, I'm going to have a building [a new body] that comes from God, a home in the Last Age among the heavens that hasn't been made by hands. For in this one [my present body] I am continually groaning, since I am continually desiring to put on, like clothes, my home that comes from heaven, and provided that I have put on these clothes [my new body], I won't be found naked [without a body]. Yes, while I am still in this tent [my present temporary body], I am continually groaning, since I am being burdened, because I don't want to be stripped [of my present body], but I want to put on the clothes [my new body], so that what is subject to dying might be swallowed up by Life.
Jab ==one question about that.
There he says he doesn't want to be found naked [in the afterlife?] that is, without a body.
Would that imply that it would be possible to be just a soul without a body in the afterlife?
To me, it seems obvious that he
can have one (when he has the
redemption of his body? [you quoted that verse earlier]. Your question though brings me to something I've been thinking about. It seems a dividing point can be "are people still asleep in the grave" or are the "in heaven". I tend to believe there's an "intermediate state", a holding place - I believe some have called it paradise, or __________ (can't remember what the Jews call it). To me, that "temporary holding place" -whether that's awaiting judgment, the resurrection, or both -
could tie into whether there's an immortal body yet or not. However! Paul said to be absent from his body was to be present with the Lord...so again, going along with your Q of this scrip, maybe some have attained, while others will have to wait?
Reminds me of the "saved in 3 stages" discussion in another thread that I've also been thinking about; i.e., spirit saved by belief/faith/confession, soul saved by obedience/Sonship, body saved at the consummation/vivification of all. The more I think I know, the less I know...
I'm not saying all the above is the way it is. I'm wondering, thinking, suggesting perhaps... Everyone needs to pray and study about such things. There are many, many POVs. :2c:
וְאַחַר עוֹרִי נִקְּפוּ־זֹאת וּמִבְּשָׂרִי אֶחֱזֶה אֱלוֹהַּ
19:26 w'achar ôriy niQ'fû-zot ûmiB'säriy echézeh élôHa
19:26 And [though] after 310 my skin 5785 [worms] destroy 5362 z8765 this x2063 [body], yet in my flesh 1320 x4480 shall I see 2372 z8799 ´Élôåh אֱלוֹהַ: 433
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 14, 2011, 07:28:43 AM
I as well have translations up the kazoo. Shall we post em all? I said it is a verse that would take some looking into and considering just what it is telling us. But if you have already go the answer please give it to me so I may go silently into the night. :bigGrin:
Yes but you see that most of the translations say the same thing--he will see God in his flesh even though his body now is destroyed.
Should I have any more wonders of what the Bible says I'll come to you.
Quote from: jabcat on December 14, 2011, 02:27:55 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 02:24:05 AM
DNA. Have you ever noticed how DNA is read as some huge statistical number--like only 1 person in 300 billion will have the same DNA? There are only supposedly some 7 billion on the planet [and I think that's way exaggerated] so 'we've got a match' becomes 'no one else in the universe living or dead would have this sequence.'
We are identified by a sequence, a code, that accounts for every hair on our heads, exclusive of anyone else ever born.
And the very hairs on your head are all numbered. So don't be afraid; you are more valuable to God than a whole flock of sparrows Lk 12:7
Not stating a particular stance here, other than I had a similar thought (not as well defined as yours) :thumbsup:; God can work that miracle easily if He chooses to.
"Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh. Is anything too hard for me? Jer. 32:27
From a Biblical pov it's odd to even consider God needs bodies to resurrect for several reason:
- Adam was build without and previous DNA
- Nothing is impossible for God.
- People that are totally destroyed by for example a bomb can't be resurrected.
- If for some reason people look into a year old grave God needs to change a glorified body back in a corpse for that moment.
- The list goes on.
If there is anything to be learned from Jesus' resurrection it is that the grave will be empty as a sign of resurrection.
Does the body look the same? It took quite a while until Jesus was recognized by the 12 of which half knew Him for decades.
So that same Jesus was different. I think that's also quite obvious because otherwise it means a heaven filled with 85 yo blind, deaf and ill people.
My wife's mother died about 2 months ago from cancer. Her poor body had wasted away by the time of her passing. My wife and she were extremely close, and of course, she's been grieving.
About 2 weeks ago, she was given a dream that was very comforting to her. My wife never/almost never remembers her dreams, and through the years I've only heard her share perhaps 3 or 4 of them.
She saw several people in this dream, including her mother. Her mother was the only one with a light emenating/radiating from/through her. And she was probably about 25 years younger (around 40), with a nice full head of hair (she'd lost hers).
My wife was very comforted, and she believes God showed her what her mother now looks like.
Quote from: jabcat on December 14, 2011, 09:09:31 AM
My wife's mother died about 2 months ago from cancer. Her poor body had wasted away by the time of her passing. My wife and she were extremely close, and of course, she's been grieving.
About 2 weeks ago, she was given a dream that was very comforting to her. My wife never/almost never remembers her dreams, and through the years I've only heard her share perhaps 3 or 4 of them.
She saw several people in this dream, including her mother. Her mother was the only one with a light emenating/radiating from/through her. And she was probably about 25 years younger (around 40), with a nice full head of hair (she'd lost hers).
My wife was very comforted, and she believes God showed her what her mother now looks like.
My condolances!
Would your wife have recognized her mother "on the road to Emmaus"?
Quote from: jabcat on December 14, 2011, 09:09:31 AM
My wife's mother died about 2 months ago from cancer. Her poor body had wasted away by the time of her passing. My wife and she were extremely close, and of course, she's been grieving.
About 2 weeks ago, she was given a dream that was very comforting to her. My wife never/almost never remembers her dreams, and through the years I've only heard her share perhaps 3 or 4 of them.
She saw several people in this dream, including her mother. Her mother was the only one with a light emenating/radiating from/through her. And she was probably about 25 years younger (around 40), with a nice full head of hair (she'd lost hers).
My wife was very comforted, and she believes God showed her what her mother now looks like.
Thank you for sharing that with us Jab.
Same thing happened to me after my mother died. She visited me in my dreams, off and on for a year and talked to me.
I can't describe the joy I had to see her still alive--and --as if I really were seeing her in person. Dreams are not like that for me, either.
I hardly ever dream. [that I remember] She, also looked young and healthy.
Blessed are they who mourn for they will be comforted.
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 01:33:54 PM
Quote from: jabcat on December 14, 2011, 09:09:31 AM
My wife's mother died about 2 months ago from cancer. Her poor body had wasted away by the time of her passing. My wife and she were extremely close, and of course, she's been grieving.
About 2 weeks ago, she was given a dream that was very comforting to her. My wife never/almost never remembers her dreams, and through the years I've only heard her share perhaps 3 or 4 of them.
She saw several people in this dream, including her mother. Her mother was the only one with a light emenating/radiating from/through her. And she was probably about 25 years younger (around 40), with a nice full head of hair (she'd lost hers).
My wife was very comforted, and she believes God showed her what her mother now looks like.
Thank you for sharing that with us Jab.
Same thing happened to me after my mother died. She visited me in my dreams, off and on for a year and talked to me.
I can't describe the joy I had to see her still alive--and --as if I really were seeing her in person. Dreams are not like that for me, either.
I hardly ever dream. [that I remember] She, also looked young and healthy.
Blessed are they who mourn for they will be comforted.
My best friend, has been going through intense pain, and grieving while going through her divorce; and one night in despair...and frustrated about God; cried out to her dead grandma.....show me a sign; give me some hope...............She heard/felt the message loud and clear "you are safe, loved, covered and cared for; all is ok". Later that night my friend called me; and told me that she was in despair. Prior to her telling me anything about her "visitation from her grandma", I told her that earlier in the day, when i was sitting on my porch; i had a vision of an old lady with white hair come to me; and tell me that she was "safe, loved, covered and cared for; all is ok". Word for word the exact same thing had come to me. And when i described the "vision" of what she looked like; it was exactly as her grandma had looked about 15 years ago. We both cried.
On the one hand, Catholic tradition says Mary and other saints who have died are alive in heaven, and can hear the prayers of believers; on the other hand, the Scriptures show that the faithful who are deceased remain in their graves, asleep, awaiting the resurrection. The two views seem mutually exclusive.
Job said,
Job 14:13-17
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
For now thou numberest my steps: dost thou not watch over my sin?
My transgression is sealed up in a bag, and thou sewest up mine iniquity.
Job believed he would be changed, that he was "the work of God's hands," and that he would eventually see God.
Job 19:25-27
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
Similarly, David said:
Psalm 17:15
As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.
To "awaken" as if from sleep is a metaphor Jesus used when he raised up Lazarus.
John 11:11-13
These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Jesus also said, those who believe in him would "never die." Evidently, what he meant was, though they experience death, the time they are in the grave is merely "sleep." They are assured of the promise of their resurrection.
John 11:21-27
Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
For Paul, the resurrection of the saints would not occur until the coming of Christ.
1 Thessalonians 2:19
For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
1 Thessalonians 3:12-13
And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Paul taught, that at the last trump, Christ will descend from heaven, and "the dead in Christ shall rise first," and then, "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them."
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
John showed that our destiny is to "be like him."
1 John 3:2-3
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
John also said, "no one has ever seen God."
1 John 4:7-12 NIV
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
Doug
Quote from: livingwater1 on December 14, 2011, 02:11:59 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 01:33:54 PM
Quote from: jabcat on December 14, 2011, 09:09:31 AM
My wife's mother died about 2 months ago from cancer. Her poor body had wasted away by the time of her passing. My wife and she were extremely close, and of course, she's been grieving.
About 2 weeks ago, she was given a dream that was very comforting to her. My wife never/almost never remembers her dreams, and through the years I've only heard her share perhaps 3 or 4 of them.
She saw several people in this dream, including her mother. Her mother was the only one with a light emenating/radiating from/through her. And she was probably about 25 years younger (around 40), with a nice full head of hair (she'd lost hers).
My wife was very comforted, and she believes God showed her what her mother now looks like.
Thank you for sharing that with us Jab.
Same thing happened to me after my mother died. She visited me in my dreams, off and on for a year and talked to me.
I can't describe the joy I had to see her still alive--and --as if I really were seeing her in person. Dreams are not like that for me, either.
I hardly ever dream. [that I remember] She, also looked young and healthy.
Blessed are they who mourn for they will be comforted.
My best friend, has been going through intense pain, and grieving while going through her divorce; and one night in despair...and frustrated about God; cried out to her dead grandma.....show me a sign; give me some hope...............She heard/felt the message loud and clear "you are safe, loved, covered and cared for; all is ok". Later that night my friend called me; and told me that she was in despair. Prior to her telling me anything about her "visitation from her grandma", I told her that earlier in the day, when i was sitting on my porch; i had a vision of an old lady with white hair come to me; and tell me that she was "safe, loved, covered and cared for; all is ok". Word for word the exact same thing had come to me. And when i described the "vision" of what she looked like; it was exactly as her grandma had looked about 15 years ago. We both cried.
:cloud9: PTL! I love it when He gives confirmations like that, that you know that you know, is Him. He is just awesome beyond words. Praise the Lord for eyes that see, and ears that hear, we give You praise this day, Lord! Blessings.....
:cloud9: @ Nathan......two excellent posts! :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
Well, I have a story that is a little bit different.
My mother inlaw and I would talk on the phone just about every day. One day we were talking about what happens when we die. I said "if you die before I do please come back and let me know how it is". She said "you do the same". After she died about two weeks later I saw her standing by my bed, she looked awful like she was decaying. I believe I was dreaming but I woke up and she was still standing there for a minute. Then she just crumbled to pieces and was gone. She didn't say a word just looked at me. It was like she just disintergrated.
I don't know for sure but I think whatever you believe is what your dreams are made of. I had always believed when you die you are dead and stay in your grave until Christ returns. So, that is the way my dream was.
CHB
Quote from: Nathan on December 13, 2011, 11:06:12 PM
...
What you "see" with your eyes is the natural realm. What you can tangibly see is the spiritual.
This is wonderfully confusing stuff.
Doug
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 14, 2011, 07:15:10 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 07:03:23 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 14, 2011, 07:01:22 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 06:53:35 AM
Job 19:26 And though afterH310 my skinH5785 worms destroyH5362 thisH2063 body, yet in my fleshH4480 H1320 shall I seeH2372 God:H433
yet in my flesh = H4480 + H1320
H4480 first meaning is "properly a part of" meaning from or out of
H1320 means flesh
So it seems to me that he's saying he will be flesh when he sees God.
In other words, he will be seeing God from his flesh.
KJ translator got it right, imo, in my flesh is the best translation
So you will only accept a translation that agrees with your thinking. Got it.
No, I looked at the Hebrew and I also didn't have to search and search for obscure translations to find something that sort of not really agrees with my thinking.
NO where does that word mean 'without.' It means a part of ==as in a part of flesh--from out of my flesh I will see God
May I just remind you up there in Post#220 I said, "Well now there is a verse that could use some thinking." And that's all I did was post several translation, I didn't say that I had an answer, I said that's a verse looking into.
But let's keep this in the context in which it was written . . .this was JOB!! A man who literally had worms eating his flesh . . .he wasn't prophesying about men returning to bodies of flesh, he was saying that no matter how bad things were for him at that point, it wasn't going to beat him. Even though worms ate his skin, he would in the end, in the flesh, continue to give God glory.
there's absolutely no indication there at all that he was talking about the end of the world and all the people on earth would one day have their spirits return to their bodies . . .
I am surprised though that you're not pointing to passages that talk about the dead in Christ shall rise and those who are alive and remain will be caught up in the air to meet with the Lord and there we shall forever be . . .floating around . . .in the air . ..neither on heaven or on earth . . .just forever floating . . .
Sorry . . .got carried away.
But the bottom line here is, you're taking Job's renderings completely out of context to fit something else entirely different.
Hi Nathan,
The context of Job 19 :26
Job is talkiing about the Redeemer standing on the earth in the Latter Day--to judge the earth--
I doubt he thought he would still be alive at that time
And, he also said 'though my reins be consumed within me"---meaning all his organs would be destroyed--in other words, he would be dead.
So yes, he is prophesying about the resurrection from the dead in the Latter Day.
25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
--Job 19
Quote from: CHB on December 14, 2011, 04:58:50 PM
Well, I have a story that is a little bit different.
My mother inlaw and I would talk on the phone just about every day. One day we were talking about what happens when we die. I said "if you die before I do please come back and let me know how it is". She said "you do the same". After she died about two weeks later I saw her standing by my bed, she looked awful like she was decaying. I believe I was dreaming but I woke up and she was still standing there for a minute. Then she just crumbled to pieces and was gone. She didn't say a word just looked at me. It was like she just disintergrated.
I don't know for sure but I think whatever you believe is what your dreams are made of. I had always believed when you die you are dead and stay in your grave until Christ returns. So, that is the way my dream was.
CHB
I find that overwhelming with truth! Glory! I do want to offend any of the other dreams, but with all humility this dream bears a teaching that is a truth. I pray you handled it well. :HeartThrob:
Molly, and actually, to get "technical", I've read the worms part is strictly an translator addition to the text. However, he's apparently talking about when his flesh is gone, decayed - as in DEAD - yet he would still see Him. Good summary on the actual context of the scripture.
Really awesome scrips, that do not sound parabolic. He knew his redeemer lives and that he would see Him in His power and glory! Hallelujah!
yes the body decays. that's scriptural. Yet, "he who believe in Me will NEVER die. Do you believe this?" spoken by our Lord.
as I suggested earlier, I personally think there's another answer besides the "sticking points" of simply "dead" or "in heaven". post #229. :2c:
I think worms often are postive things. (They picture renewal.) It's the negative maggots that picture decay.
Jesus was the prophesied Lamb. But He's also a (prophesied) worm in the OT.
The type that's present in LoF.
(http://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/animaux-insectes/insectes/verterre.gif)
When is man going to forefit and know that the context is God. All this context talk, how is it that man's context is His context?
Or that His context is man's context. Context belongs to theologians and religions.
Psa 119:160 The sum of thy word, is truth, and, age-abiding, is every one of thy righteous regulations.
Every word, proverb, story, or parable is in the context and the Holy Spirit will Teach us of the Truth which is the SUM of His Word. It is age-abiding, they are HIS righteous regulations.
In what context is many are called but few are chosen? The context for me is Genesis thru Revelation.
I truly had thought(did you get that "I" thought) that I suppose was my error; that this forum was a place for learning and sharing, outside of religious denominational standards. A retreating from and growing into
Isa 43:19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.
But, that is not so. All that it seems to be offering is readjusting of what we have been taught by theologians and religion. WhiteWings for me anyway, is about the only one who dares to offer up what the Bible says and gives thoughts that challenge the doctrines that men have set forth. I don't always agree with him but he does not just rehash old things, he will raise a point that has been taken for granted and then shows different points that question religions teachings. Maybe its because the Lord has him seeking for Truth because he is not committed, he distrusts religions, or he sees the air between the foundational bricks that man has set in place. I may debate perhaps to harsh, that is between me and the Lord, it is not my intent, but when I read something that is just not what the Word says, I'm given to argue it out. An example would be when a soul(human being) dies that soul goes to heaven, when the Bible teaches no such thing.
I, thank you Lord, I do not fully understand Job 19:26 And, though, after my skin is struck off, this followeth , yet, apart from my flesh, shall I see GOD:
But I do know that those words written in Job, are for me now, and I pray that He will lead me to understand the Sum of His Truth, and I know He will open that truth in His time for me.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 14, 2011, 08:48:23 PM
I think worms often are postive things. (They picture renewal.) It's the negative maggots that picture decay.
Jesus was the prophesied Lamb. But He's also a (prophesied) worm in the OT.
The type that's present in LoF.
(http://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/animaux-insectes/insectes/verterre.gif)
Yes Amen! Worms, and we are talking about maggots, will eat UNTIL there is no more to eat. Psa 22:6 But I am a worm and not a man, A reproach to humanity and despised by the people."
Job 25:6 How much less man--a grub, And the son of man--a worm!
Glory! Amen
micah, you continually seem so disappointed and displeased with the forum and its members. :dontknow:
I used to toy around with the idea of so-called 'soul sleep". However, I believe there are many mysteries yet to be revealed, more to the story.
Jesus said whoever believes in Him will N-E-V-E-R die - and He asked if we believe it. God said He is a God of the LIVING, not of the DEAD.
Molly, I like your thoughts on what the cross did. I believe that's so important...some things were stated and were so, prior to the cross; after the cross, things changed! The power of the cross!
I believe there are other things to explore besides just either someone is d e a d, or in heaven right now. The spirit immediately returns to God. That means something. The early Jews believed in an "abode of the dead" - a sort of holding place, IIRC. Though Paul was already saved, he still strove and hoped for something - a better resurrection. I believe his spirit was already saved, through grace by faith GIVEN by God - but he still hoped to attain something.
I know very little. I do know Jesus Christ, Him crucified, risen again for our salvation and deliverance. In Him we have Life.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 14, 2011, 08:48:23 PM
I think worms often are postive things. (They picture renewal.) It's the negative maggots that picture decay.
Jesus was the prophesied Lamb. But He's also a (prophesied) worm in the OT.
The type that's present in LoF.
(http://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/animaux-insectes/insectes/verterre.gif)
The word 'worms' was inserted by the translator. It's not in the scripture.
Agreed, I suggested that a few posts up as well. Thanks.
Quote from: jabcat on December 14, 2011, 09:18:57 PM
I used to toy around with the idea of so-called 'soul sleep". However, I believe there are many mysteries yet to be revealed, more to the story.
Jesus said whoever believes in Him will N-E-V-E-R die - and He asked if we believe it. God said He is a God of the LIVING, not of the DEAD.
Molly, I like your thoughts on what the cross did. I believe that's so important...some things were stated and were so, prior to the cross; after the cross, things changed! The power of the cross!
I believe there are other things to explore besides just either someone is d e a d, or in heaven right now. The spirit immediately returns to God. That means something. The early Jews believed in an "abode of the dead" - a sort of holding place, IIRC. Though Paul was already saved, he still strove and hoped for something - a better resurrection. I believe his spirit was already saved, through grace by faith GIVEN by God - but he still hoped to attain something.
I know very little. I do know Jesus Christ, Him crucified, risen again for our salvation and deliverance. In Him we have Life.
I think the thing Paul hoped to attain is the heavenly body spoken of in 2 Cor 5:1.
He says without it, he would be naked. Does that mean there are liviing naked souls in the place of the dead? Those who are not saved in this age?
Ok I don't want to give anyone nightmares but just asking, because that's what he said---lest I be found naked.
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 09:25:12 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 14, 2011, 08:48:23 PM
I think worms often are postive things. (They picture renewal.) It's the negative maggots that picture decay.
Jesus was the prophesied Lamb. But He's also a (prophesied) worm in the OT.
The type that's present in LoF.
(http://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/animaux-insectes/insectes/verterre.gif)
The word 'worms' was inserted by the translator. It's not in the scripture.
Which verse are you refering to?
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 14, 2011, 09:31:44 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 09:25:12 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 14, 2011, 08:48:23 PM
I think worms often are postive things. (They picture renewal.) It's the negative maggots that picture decay.
Jesus was the prophesied Lamb. But He's also a (prophesied) worm in the OT.
The type that's present in LoF.
(http://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/animaux-insectes/insectes/verterre.gif)
The word 'worms' was inserted by the translator. It's not in the scripture.
Which verse are you refering to?
The verse we're discussing, Job 19:26
And after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God.
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 09:28:54 PM
Quote from: jabcat on December 14, 2011, 09:18:57 PM
I used to toy around with the idea of so-called 'soul sleep". However, I believe there are many mysteries yet to be revealed, more to the story.
Jesus said whoever believes in Him will N-E-V-E-R die - and He asked if we believe it. God said He is a God of the LIVING, not of the DEAD.
Molly, I like your thoughts on what the cross did. I believe that's so important...some things were stated and were so, prior to the cross; after the cross, things changed! The power of the cross!
I believe there are other things to explore besides just either someone is d e a d, or in heaven right now. The spirit immediately returns to God. That means something. The early Jews believed in an "abode of the dead" - a sort of holding place, IIRC. Though Paul was already saved, he still strove and hoped for something - a better resurrection. I believe his spirit was already saved, through grace by faith GIVEN by God - but he still hoped to attain something.
I know very little. I do know Jesus Christ, Him crucified, risen again for our salvation and deliverance. In Him we have Life.
I think the thing Paul hoped to attain is the heavenly body spoken of in 2 Cor 5:1.
He says without it, he would be naked. Does that mean there are liviing naked souls in the place of the dead? Those who are not saved in this age?
Ok I don't want to give anyone nightmares but just asking, because that's what he said---lest I be found naked.
:bigGrin:
C Miclaus and L Mize - "We already know from the Bible that in order to have access to Heaven/New Jerusalem, a person must be saved. Now, usually, when we say that a person was saved, we mean that person accepted Christ into his life. Now, let me say that even though you were saved (at a specific time and place), you are still in the process of salvation. Your spirit is saved, but some other parts of you are not yet saved. The Bible says: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21) Yes, that is true, your soul is not saved yet!
Salvation takes place in three times: past, present and future. You were saved (that is your spirit) when you admitted you are a sinner and accepted Jesus as your personal Savor; that was in the past. You are in the process of salvation, now, in the present (salvation of the soul). And, you will be saved in the future, when God will completely take away sin from you (that is your body)."
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/saved_9919.msg127787.html#msg127787
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/saved_9919.msg127844.html#msg127844
Found it Molly. Was just about to delete my post but you've already replied.
My post still stands but obviously not for Job 19:26
1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2 Cor 5
Quote from: jabcat on December 14, 2011, 09:38:19 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 09:28:54 PM
Quote from: jabcat on December 14, 2011, 09:18:57 PM
I used to toy around with the idea of so-called 'soul sleep". However, I believe there are many mysteries yet to be revealed, more to the story.
Jesus said whoever believes in Him will N-E-V-E-R die - and He asked if we believe it. God said He is a God of the LIVING, not of the DEAD.
Molly, I like your thoughts on what the cross did. I believe that's so important...some things were stated and were so, prior to the cross; after the cross, things changed! The power of the cross!
I believe there are other things to explore besides just either someone is d e a d, or in heaven right now. The spirit immediately returns to God. That means something. The early Jews believed in an "abode of the dead" - a sort of holding place, IIRC. Though Paul was already saved, he still strove and hoped for something - a better resurrection. I believe his spirit was already saved, through grace by faith GIVEN by God - but he still hoped to attain something.
I know very little. I do know Jesus Christ, Him crucified, risen again for our salvation and deliverance. In Him we have Life.
I think the thing Paul hoped to attain is the heavenly body spoken of in 2 Cor 5:1.
He says without it, he would be naked. Does that mean there are liviing naked souls in the place of the dead? Those who are not saved in this age?
Ok I don't want to give anyone nightmares but just asking, because that's what he said---lest I be found naked.
:bigGrin:
C Miclaus and L Mize - "We already know from the Bible that in order to have access to Heaven/New Jerusalem, a person must be saved. Now, usually, when we say that a person was saved, we mean that person accepted Christ into his life. Now, let me say that even though you were saved (at a specific time and place), you are still in the process of salvation. Your spirit is saved, but some other parts of you are not yet saved. The Bible says: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21) Yes, that is true, your soul is not saved yet!
Salvation takes place in three times: past, present and future. You were saved (that is your spirit) when you admitted you are a sinner and accepted Jesus as your personal Savor; that was in the past. You are in the process of salvation, now, in the present (salvation of the soul). And, you will be saved in the future, when God will completely take away sin from you (that is your body)."
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/saved_9919.msg127787.html#msg127787
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/saved_9919.msg127844.html#msg127844
Do you think that all of our sin comes from this flesh body? And, that without it, we will be without sin?
But we know there are evil spirits, the Bible talks of them.
Here's what I'm thinking--the cross is so powerful that everyone is preserved alive and aware after death.
But only those in Christ receive heavenly bodies and are in heaven.
The souls that are naked go somewhere else.
This is sort of a Catholic purgatory idea, except it would be all souls.
[The Catholics just let the ones they call saints into heaven itself without purgatory. ]
Quote from: jabcat on December 14, 2011, 09:18:57 PM
I used to toy around with the idea of so-called 'soul sleep". However, I believe there are many mysteries yet to be revealed, more to the story.
Jesus said whoever believes in Him will N-E-V-E-R die - and He asked if we believe it. God said He is a God of the LIVING, not of the DEAD.
Molly, I like your thoughts on what the cross did. I believe that's so important...some things were stated and were so, prior to the cross; after the cross, things changed! The power of the cross!
I believe there are other things to explore besides just either someone is d e a d, or in heaven right now. The spirit immediately returns to God. That means something. The early Jews believed in an "abode of the dead" - a sort of holding place, IIRC. Though Paul was already saved, he still strove and hoped for something - a better resurrection. I believe his spirit was already saved, through grace by faith GIVEN by God - but he still hoped to attain something.
I know very little. I do know Jesus Christ, Him crucified, risen again for our salvation and deliverance. In Him we have Life.
"The spirit immediately returns to God. That means something. " It means mans BREATH returned to the one who gave it.
Should we continue to mix "spirit=breath with spirit= God" imo it will never be understood.
" will N-E-V-E-R die" Joh 11:26 and all the living and believing into me,
not not may die into the age. Believest thou this?
And just to add that if you will look as see you will find that "saved" is not in the past tense.
Now these are the words of Jesus Mat 10:22 And ye will be hated by all, because of my name,—
but, he that endureth throughout, the same, shall be saved. And here is Paul, whom you say is already saved 1Co 9:27 but I am belaboring my body and leading it into slavery, lest somehow, when heralding to others,
I myself may become disqualified."Dont think Paul would have had that kind of thinking if he was
already "saved." But that maybe just my opinion.
:cloud9: Naked = not clothed with Christ. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: jabcat on December 14, 2011, 09:09:31 PM
micah, you continually seem so disappointed and displeased with the forum and its members. :dontknow:
Yeah. It's becoming like taking the same class with the same teachers every year or like Ground Hog Day. I may become a drop out and make the teachers somewhat more relieved. :dunno: :Chinscratch: :happyclap:
Micah, the English version of
"not not to die unto the age"
Is
"will never never die throughout the age."
That is why he says this:
And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age." [Mat 28:20']
Quote from: Cardinal on December 14, 2011, 09:56:35 PM
:cloud9: Naked = not clothed with Christ. My :2c: Blessings....
What are your thoughts on the heavenly body in 2 Cor 5?
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 10:04:20 PM
Micah, the English version of
"not not to die unto the age"
Is
"will never never die throughout the age."
That is why he says this:
And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age." [Mat 28:20']
Amazing.
Micah, the cross was, as they say in math, an inflection point.
It changed everything.
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 10:06:15 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on December 14, 2011, 09:56:35 PM
:cloud9: Naked = not clothed with Christ. My :2c: Blessings....
What are your thoughts on the heavenly body in 2 Cor 5?
To my understanding, believers have already "put on Christ", and there's way too much reference to the new body/tent, taking on immortality, the redemption of the body etc. to dismiss. :2c:
[addendum]...there are contrasts between the (current) old, and the coming new tent/body at immortality, etc.
Quote from: jabcat on December 14, 2011, 08:12:35 PM
Molly, and actually, to get "technical", I've read the worms part is strictly an translator addition to the text. However, he's apparently talking about when his flesh is gone, decayed - as in DEAD - yet he would still see Him. Good summary on the actual context of the scripture.
Really awesome scrips, that do not sound parabolic. He knew his redeemer lives and that he would see Him in His power and glory! Hallelujah!
I've just read the whole chapter to get a closer look at the context. The more I read the more it "felt" like he was really sounding like what Jesus experienced which them would/may have indicated that what Molly is suggesting could be true . . .until I came to "this" verse in the middle of it.
20My bone cleaveth to my skin and to my flesh, and
I am escaped with the skin of my teeth. 21
Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.
That was "not" how Jesus experienced it. There may be "some" similarities but at no point in this does Job jump ahead to thousands of years later as what "we" perceive the latter day to be. In my eyes he's saying "when this is all over, I'll still proclaim him as Lord". That was Job's defense through this entire time. He was totally unaware of why these things were happening, but he knew one thing for certain, it wasn't because of any unrighteousness in "him".
22Why do ye persecute me as God, and are not satisfied with my flesh?
23Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
24That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
28But ye should say, Why persecute we him, seeing the root of the matter is found in me?
29Be ye afraid of the sword: for wrath bringeth the punishments of the sword, that ye may know there is a judgment.
I still think to jump to the end of "our" understanding of latter days is still taking it out of context, he's lamenting to his friends that are accusing him the terrible things that have befallen him are his own undoing and he's merely telling them, he knows who his redeemer is and he's regardless of how bad of a state he's in, in the end, which we now know the end for him was when the curse lifted and everything was once again not only restored but multiplied.
What is written here wasn't a prophetic word to "anyone". he's merely arguing with his friends as to who is at fault.
I'm not trying to denounce you on this, I greatly respect your understanding on things, as well as your usage of Scriptures and ability to put things together. But this context just doesn't seem to have anything to do with the end of the world as we know it.
So . . .having said all of that . . .are you then saying that Job is conversing with his friends, then the text takes us to the end of the world, and then it goes back to him arguing with his friends again?
QuoteSo . . .having said all of that . . .are you then saying that Job is conversing with his friends, then the text takes us to the end of the world, and then it goes back to him arguing with his friends again?
The way I see it, he's telling his friends who continually give him a hard time over his woes [persecute him with accusations], that they are wrong, that in his flesh he will see God when he stands upon the earth at the latter day, and that the friends will be judged at that time, so they shouldn't get too smug. It's a statement of his faith in God no matter what happens to him and no matter what his friends say. Job was a righteous man. God said so, and God should know. He didn't deserve what was happening to him.
...that ye may know there is a judgment. [Job 19:29]
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 10:53:26 PM
QuoteSo . . .having said all of that . . .are you then saying that Job is conversing with his friends, then the text takes us to the end of the world, and then it goes back to him arguing with his friends again?
The way I see it, he's telling his friends who continually give him a hard time over his woes [persecute him with accusations], that they are wrong, that in his flesh he will see God when he stands upon the earth at the latter day, and that the friends will be judged at that time, so they shouldn't get too smug. It's a statement of his faith in God no matter what happens to him and no matter what his friends say. Job was a righteous man. God said so, and God should know. He didn't deserve what was happening to him.
...that ye may know there is a judgment. [Job 19:29]
"It's a statement of his faith in God no matter what happens to him and no matter what his friends say."
"Job was a righteous man."
"God said so,
and God should know.
"
He didn't deserve what was happening to him."
Job was a righteous man, God said so, and God should know, and then you say HE DIDN'T DESERVE WHAT WAS HAPPENING TO HIM............................
.Then why in the world did God do to Job what he did to him?
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 14, 2011, 11:08:49 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 10:53:26 PM
QuoteSo . . .having said all of that . . .are you then saying that Job is conversing with his friends, then the text takes us to the end of the world, and then it goes back to him arguing with his friends again?
The way I see it, he's telling his friends who continually give him a hard time over his woes [persecute him with accusations], that they are wrong, that in his flesh he will see God when he stands upon the earth at the latter day, and that the friends will be judged at that time, so they shouldn't get too smug. It's a statement of his faith in God no matter what happens to him and no matter what his friends say. Job was a righteous man. God said so, and God should know. He didn't deserve what was happening to him.
...that ye may know there is a judgment. [Job 19:29]
"It's a statement of his faith in God no matter what happens to him and no matter what his friends say."
"Job was a righteous man."
"God said so, and God should know.
"He didn't deserve what was happening to him."
Job was a righteous man, God said so, and God should know, and then you say HE DIDN'T DESERVE WHAT WAS HAPPENING TO HIM.............................Then why in the world did God do to Job what he did to him?
A bet with Satan.
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 11:38:37 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 14, 2011, 11:08:49 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 10:53:26 PM
QuoteSo . . .having said all of that . . .are you then saying that Job is conversing with his friends, then the text takes us to the end of the world, and then it goes back to him arguing with his friends again?
The way I see it, he's telling his friends who continually give him a hard time over his woes [persecute him with accusations], that they are wrong, that in his flesh he will see God when he stands upon the earth at the latter day, and that the friends will be judged at that time, so they shouldn't get too smug. It's a statement of his faith in God no matter what happens to him and no matter what his friends say. Job was a righteous man. God said so, and God should know. He didn't deserve what was happening to him.
...that ye may know there is a judgment. [Job 19:29]
"It's a statement of his faith in God no matter what happens to him and no matter what his friends say."
"Job was a righteous man."
"God said so, and God should know.
"He didn't deserve what was happening to him."
Job was a righteous man, God said so, and God should know, and then you say HE DIDN'T DESERVE WHAT WAS HAPPENING TO HIM.............................Then why in the world did God do to Job what he did to him?
A bet with Satan.
I find no evidence of a bet or wager.
Job 1:6-12 (ACV)
6) Now it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before LORD, that Satan also came among them.
7) And LORD said to Satan, From where do thou come? Then Satan answered LORD, and said, From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.
8) And LORD said to Satan, Have thou considered my servant Job? For there is none like him on the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one who fears God, and turns away from evil.
9) Then Satan answered LORD, and said, Does Job fear God for nothing?
10) Have thou not made a hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he has, on every side? Thou have blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11) But put forth thy hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will renounce thee to thy face.
12) And LORD said to Satan, Behold, all that he has is in thy power, only upon himself do not put forth thy hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of LORD.
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 09:28:54 PM
Quote from: jabcat on December 14, 2011, 09:18:57 PM
I used to toy around with the idea of so-called 'soul sleep". However, I believe there are many mysteries yet to be revealed, more to the story.
Jesus said whoever believes in Him will N-E-V-E-R die - and He asked if we believe it. God said He is a God of the LIVING, not of the DEAD.
Molly, I like your thoughts on what the cross did. I believe that's so important...some things were stated and were so, prior to the cross; after the cross, things changed! The power of the cross!
I believe there are other things to explore besides just either someone is d e a d, or in heaven right now. The spirit immediately returns to God. That means something. The early Jews believed in an "abode of the dead" - a sort of holding place, IIRC. Though Paul was already saved, he still strove and hoped for something - a better resurrection. I believe his spirit was already saved, through grace by faith GIVEN by God - but he still hoped to attain something.
I know very little. I do know Jesus Christ, Him crucified, risen again for our salvation and deliverance. In Him we have Life.
I think the thing Paul hoped to attain is the heavenly body spoken of in 2 Cor 5:1.
He says without it, he would be naked. Does that mean there are liviing naked souls in the place of the dead? Those who are not saved in this age?
Ok I don't want to give anyone nightmares but just asking, because that's what he said---lest I be found naked.
we go in naked and we go out naked.
bible scripture
Quote from: Cardinal on December 14, 2011, 09:56:35 PM
:cloud9: Naked = not clothed with Christ. My :2c: Blessings....
I think there are two types of nakedness as expressed in holy scripture.
One is the nakedness of shame that evil doers will experience, lest he walk naked and see his shame. That you speak of
The other nakedness is having no temple to dwell in, until the resurection of all those who sleep in christ and those who remain alive.
Did Job know Jesus?
Rev. Allen Brummel
Job: Confessing, 'My Redeemer Lives'"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
August 2, 1998; No. 2900
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Today we turn to Job 19:25, 26, "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God."
In the preceding verses and chapters, Job began to plead with the three friends for pity. His natural strength has become more and more feeble, his voice became weaker and weaker. And a feeling of sorrow is apparent in his description of the suffering, in his pleading with his friends to be sympathetic. It is enough that Jehovah has touched him. Now these so-called friends continue to persecute him and to usurp to themselves a divine authority by which they act toward him as if they are God. They do not look upon him as an equal, but assume a false, elevated position. Job pleaded with them to be honest with him, to be fair with him.
Now Job expresses a higher hope and desire in which he finds his comfort. His comfort is not in the words of his friends, but in Jehovah his God. Jehovah God will avenge Job's blood against his accusers. For Jehovah has sent a Redeemer. And in that Redeemer is found Job's hope.
The three so-called friends have passed judgment upon Job. But Job now demonstrates in this passage that that judgment means nothing compared to the judgment of God. God has spoken His judgment. God will send His Son to take that judgment of sin upon Himself. Job, therefore, is confident as he stands before Jehovah that Jehovah is merciful-more merciful than his friends who have tried to console him.
He therefore directs us to the idea of a Mediator: "I know that my Redeemer liveth." A redeemer is one who mediates for another, one who takes upon himself the cause of another in order to help him. The mediator pays the price of redemption. Most commonly this was done with respect to slaves. When a slave found himself in bondage, the only possibility of his being freed was if another came and bought him, paid the price which he was worth to his master, and thereby gave him his freedom.
The word "mediator" suggests "bondage." It suggests an obligation which cannot be met. Job implies that he is in such a situation. He cannot meet the obligation which is necessary. He cannot pay the price which God demands. Unless there be another, a mediator, his cause is hopeless.
Job reveals here his knowledge of his own sin and debt and his knowledge of the righteous judgment of God. He knows that he deserves God's curse and condemnation. God has every reason to condemn him to eternal woe in hell because he is, by nature, depraved, unworthy of God's grace and mercy.
As Job speaks, he speaks as one who has already found that Mediator. He has found that One who is willing to stand up for him, that One who is willing to pay the ransom and deliver him. He has found the One because of whom he does not need to experience the punishment of hell. He has found the One who atones for sin, who delivers from bondage, the One who assures him of eternal blessedness in glory.
Job has found Christ. It is Christ alone who is the Savior, the perfect, eternal Redeemer. And Job here speaks prophetically of Christ as he saw Him by revelation, as the One who would yet come. But he speaks of Him with such confidence, as though that Redeemer had already come; as though that promise had already been realized; as though the Word had already become flesh.
With that conviction in his heart, he confesses, "My Redeemer lives!" Not merely a redeemer, but my Redeemer-the One who has come to deliver me from the bondage of my sin, my suffering, and my affliction, the One who stands in my place. My Redeemer has come.
And He lives. He has taken me into covenant fellowship with Himself. Jehovah dwelt in Job by His Spirit, renewing him, turning him from death into life. And Jehovah was continually turning Job away from sin into the service of the living God.
Oh, Job remained a sinner. He knew the depravity of his own heart. He was deeply conscious of the fact that by nature he could only sin and could only do that which was contrary to God's law.
But God had implanted in Job a love for God which was evident already at the moment when he was made childless. He arose and worshiped when he confessed, "Naked came I out of my mother's womb. Naked I return thither." Here was a servant of God, perfect and upright, one whom God had taken into covenant fellowship with Him. And within that covenant fellowship the servant of
God expresses, "Who is my Judge?" The answer is: It is God, my covenant Friend. It is God, my intimate, personal companion. He is the One who judges. Before Him I stand. Not before these so-called friends.
http://www.reformedwitnesshour.org/1998/1998aug02.html
Quote from: Nathan on December 13, 2011, 11:06:12 PM
...
The thousand year millennium is all about him returning "here". I no longer can accept that.
In fact, John says that the saints who are "beheaded" for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who do not worship the beast, or his image, "lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." He does not say that they reign over nations on the earth. Neither does John say anything about Jesus returning to the earth, for the thousand year reign to begin, as premillennialism teaches. That doctrine denies the reign of Christ as Lord over all at the present time. It says Jesus is yet to become king, and is currently "uncrowned." He has to descend to the earthly Jerusalem, it is said, and he will reign
there as king. Ethnic Jews, they allege, will then be doted on by Gentiles.
But Jesus possesses far greater authority and power than the premillennialists admit. He has the
key of David, and "openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth." Only when Jesus
opens our minds, can we understand the truth. For many, the mysteries of God remain hidden, and shut. The two witnesses have power to "shut heaven." When heaven is shut, the gifts of God are withheld.
Premillennialists say that thousand year millennium is all about him returning "here," but that doctrine is not found in Revelation 20. Their minds are shut to the real meaning of John's prophecy; they are among the armies of those who encompass the camp of the saints, the beloved city, Revelation 20:8-9.
John connects the thousand years with Ezekiel's prophecy of Gog and Magog. This is where premillennialism goes astray, as they often separate the thousand years from the assault by Gog and Magog which comes at the end of it.
Ezekiel's prophecy says nothing about a thousand years, or reigning with Christ. Yet, before the time of Ezekiel, the Jews had previously lived under kings of the line of David. Because of their iniquity, they were removed to other lands. The prophets foretold a restoration, another exodus, that would eclipse the first one when Israel came out of Egypt. Perhaps John alludes to the reigns of the kings of Judah and Israel, and applies the historical lessons to the church. Ezekiel wrote:
Ezekiel 39:25-28
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
The Jews were taken into captivity in Babylon, after several centuries of monarchy; the church too, after the
monarchy of Christ's rule during the apostolic era, went into a kind of
captivity. The Reformers recognized the church as being captive in the Babylon of Revelation. In Revelation 18:4, John says, "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." This Babylon is not limited to Rome, but includes all false religion, flawed interpretations, and superstition. Surely it also includes tens of thousands of sects and denominations.
God brings the saints out of captivity, and destroys his enemies, throughout the history of the church, and in the lives of individual Christians.
The thousand year reign is the privilege of those who are "beheaded." This has to do with
obedience to Christ, who is Lord over all. Paul wrote:
2 Corinthians 10:2-5
But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
To bring every thought into captivity, is mastery over what Paul called the old man. He contrasts the "old man" with the "new man" which is the creation of God.
Colossians 3:9-11
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
In
The NIV Application Commentary: Ezekiel, Iain M. Duguid wrote: [pp. 453-454]
The point of Ezekiel 38--39 is not that at some distand point in future history these particular nations will oppose Israel, while others (America? Britain?) will rally to her aid. Rather, these seven nations from the ends of the earth, from all four points of the compass, represent symbolically a supreme attempt by the united forces of evil to crush the peace of God's people. This, not coincidentally, is the interpretation given to "Gog and Magog" in Revelation 20:8: They represent "the nations in the four corners of the earth," whom Satan gathers for the final battle against God's people, the city he loves. Their defeat in Revelation is the prerequisite for the establishment of the new Jerusalem, the heavenly city of Revelation 21, which itself has many points of contact with Ezekiel's visionary temple in Ezekiel 40--48.
Doug
God brings the saints out of captivity, and destroys his enemies, throughout the history of the church, and in the lives of individual Christians.
Who are God's enemies?
Quote from: Nathan on December 15, 2011, 11:22:18 PM
God brings the saints out of captivity, and destroys his enemies, throughout the history of the church, and in the lives of individual Christians.
Who are God's enemies?
If God did not have enemies, how could he have victories?
In the parable of the nobleman and the ten servants, in Luke 19:12-27, those who used the money that they had received wisely, and gained more with it, were commended, but the fellow who kept his money wrapped in a napkin, was not. His pound was taken away from him. Jesus said,
Luke 19:26-27
For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Paul spoke of "Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God." [2 Corinthians 10:5]
Also in Ephesians 6:12, he said, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
The "darkness of this world" resists the light and the truth.
Another thing that Scripture calls an enemy is death.
1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Isaiah said,
Isaiah 25:8
He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
The following section of Revelation describes Christ making war, which implies that there are enemies which need to be defeated.
Revelation 19:11-16, 19-21
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Many Scriptures refer to Psalm 110:1, which says God's enemies will be made his footstool.
Psalm 110:1
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
It is referred to in Matthew 22:44, Mark 12:36, Luke 20:43, Acts 2:35, Hebrews 1:13, & 10:13.
Doug
So . .according to you, men, the very beings God called into "being" are also his enemies. God is love, but yet, love creates children that it can hate? God knows the end from the beginning, so God "knowingly" creates beings that he hates? How can we say we are "cherished" by God, that Grace is greater than sin . . .but yet to those to whom Grace is afforded to, they are also the enemy of the very one that created them. God made us human and yet by being human, he made us enemies to himself.
Really?
Ephesians 6:12;
Because your fight has not been with flesh and blood, but with Principalities and The Rulers and The Powers of this dark world and with wicked spirits which are under Heaven.
My point exactly. And the sister passage to that . . .
2 Corinthians 10
3For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
But rather than attribute these things to God's spirit fighting against various levels of demonic influences, perhaps we should take a closer look at the "message" of the passage. The next verse kinda brings it home for me.
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, (the carnal mind is at enmity against God) and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
What so many continue to attribute to demons and devils, really, it's our "imaginations" and our "thoughts" that we're arguing against and our natural reasoning is what argues against spiritual truths.
6And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? if any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.
8For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:
For me, this affirms what I've seen as well. God is not out to destroy men. We are spirits living in bodies of flesh. As such, these bodies are influenced by both flesh and spiritual experiences. But God does not destroy those who are bound by their own flesh. His enemy is not people. It's the carnality that is manifesting through them. That's what hell is all about, it's the place of purging in this realm to bring us into a transitional place of purification, not to destroy, but to restore "to" the redemptive finality that the cross of Jesus established for us.
Where John wrote, in Revelation 19:21, "And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth," I think it is obvious that the sword that proceeds from the mouth of Jesus is not a literal one.
The sword is his word, as Paul showed when he wrote, "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God," [Ephesians 6:17] and "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." [Hebrews 4:12]
The word of God is the sword, with which Christ "slays" those referred to as the "remnant" in Revelation 19:21. Just as the "sword" is a non-literal one, but a metaphor, or a symbol, there are other things in that verse which need to be interpreted.
In traditional warfare, in the days of the prophets, kings would lead armies which included footmen and cavalry, warriors mounted upon horses, and chariots, and armed with shields, and weapons such as bows and arrows, spears, and clubs. It all sounds quite gruesome to us, in an age when there are people who sit in comfortable offices in various parts the USA, who guide drones that fire missiles at carefully selected human targets thousands of miles away, then go home to dinner with the wife and kids, and to watch movies or the news on TV.
In the old days, warfare was more bloody, and one might easily get his clothes splashed with blood. Jesus is described having his garments "dipped in blood."
Revelation 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
A literal sword is kept sharp, to make it more effective for cutting flesh and drawing blood, and the spiritual sword is said to be "sharper than any twoedged sword." But a Bible is not effective for literally cutting flesh and drawing blood. Some spiritual meaning has to be sought. The things that the Scriptures are effective against are false teachings. They are figuratively slain by the Word; and these may therefore be represented in prophecy by the figure of invading armies, generally enemies that come against Jerusalem, the name given to the church in the New Testament. [Hebrews 12:22] An example is the prophecies of Zechariah 12, and 14:1-3. It would be absurd to say that all nations will gather against the earthly Jerusalem, together with horses, camels, asses, and mules. If that were the case, what would those animals eat? Would there be water for them to drink? Water is already scarce in the area. And there are many other difficulties in a literal approach.
Similarly in Ezekiel's prophecy of Gog and Magog, the invaders are all mounted upon horses. In the sixth trumpet, an huge army of 200,000,000 horsemen is described. The horses have heads of lions, and their tails are serpents, and have heads.
In Psalm 32:9, David said, "Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee." This could lead to an interpretation of the horses featured in so many prophecies; they represent people with no understanding.
In the New Testament also, false teachers are compared to "brute beasts." Peter wrote, "But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;" [2 Peter 2:12] Jude said "But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves." [Jude 1:10]
Perhaps the riders or the "horsemen" are the dogmas that the false teachers are guided by. Some even say they are spirits. In Revelation 12, the warfare is said to be between armies of angels. The armies in Ezekiel 38-39, Zechariah 12 & 14, and similar prophecies must be of a spiritual nature, which is also suggested by Paul in Ephesians 6:12. In Ezekiel 39, the corpses of the slain are buried for 7 months, and their weapons are burned as fuel for 7 years. But then, the prophecy describes a great feast, to which the birds and beasts are invited, where they eat the flesh and drink the blood of men. This is not likely meant in a literal manner; the feast for the birds seems to contradict the idea that the rotting corpses had generated a great stench that "stopped the noses of the passengers," and their previous burial in the valley of Hamongog.
In Zechariah 14, the animals are afflicted with an awful plague. This too is spiritual, I think; the "plague" represents infection by false interpretations and heresies, which tend to be very contagious. Like an infectious disease, false teachings may be very hard to get rid of, as several people have found, when departing from hyper-preterism.
Zechariah says God will "smite every horse with astonishment" which could hardly apply to literal horses. What would be the point? But it would certainly be appropriate for the judgment of false teachers.
Zechariah 12:4
In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
The "house of Judah," I think, alludes to the church, as in the New Testament, Paul identifies those who are Jews in a spiritual sense, [Romans 2:29] and says "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." [Philippians 3:3]
Doug
That's been my point all along . . it's all spiritual. Spirit to spirit . . .the principles are not for "men" to attempt to follow, but instead, it's to "illuminate" the nature of God in every one of us and how he operates in us. The more I understand it's not me but him, the more I "want" to lay me aside in all areas and let Him manifest his nature in those as well. But when we start putting dates and literal groups of people to prophesies that were already spoken to a generation 2000+ years ago, we can easily be distracted from the fact that God isn't seeing men as his enemy, but instead it's the man "in" men.
A sword didn't literally come out of Jesus mouth and that same sword isn't going to literally wipe out literal people who are literally rising up against Jerusalem. But for me, the "New" Jerusalem is two-fold. On the one hand, it's a corporate body in which we are all living stones. In another "dimension" of that, there is a New Jerusalem "in" me that other natures "of" me attempt to surround and eradicate .. .
Where as the horses depicting people "may" fit in some sense, the patterns, if they are spiritual, won't change from one situation to another. Which is then saying that the 4 riders with different colored horses doesn't seem to fit that mold as much. For me, a horse in prophetic terms, or in spiritual symbolism, represents power and strength rather than people. `Their thundering hooves invokes fear and trembling to those in their path. I do see how the bridle can come into play with the passage you've quoted and I would even venture to say that "that" might be something to keep an eye out for when horses are referred to in other passages . .the bridle could change the message to indicate the control of man.
In one of your quotes, you shared . . .
and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
I'm not seeing how the application that horses are people would fit with this as it's already stating that the horse is owned by the people. But when I see this to be as "power and strength" it then fits again because God is saying he'll remove the power that the people have built up in themselves when he turns his eyes, the windows of the soul, illumination, understanding . . .when the light of God illuminates the house of Judah . . .he didn't say Israel, . . .Levi . .or David . . . but "Judah". Judah was the tribe established at the one and only entrance into the temple which was located "at the east" which speaks of "resurrection" and Judah literally means "praise". What is the power of the people if it is not our "minds"? When God begins to bring illumination, bring his glory to the resurrection of Jesus, the offspring of Judah, the mind of men will be blinded by it as well as blind "to" it . .they won't see because they're already embracing what they "think". Rather than what they can "hear".
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 09:53:18 PM
Quote from: jabcat on December 14, 2011, 09:38:19 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 14, 2011, 09:28:54 PM
Quote from: jabcat on December 14, 2011, 09:18:57 PM
I used to toy around with the idea of so-called 'soul sleep". However, I believe there are many mysteries yet to be revealed, more to the story.
Jesus said whoever believes in Him will N-E-V-E-R die - and He asked if we believe it. God said He is a God of the LIVING, not of the DEAD.
Molly, I like your thoughts on what the cross did. I believe that's so important...some things were stated and were so, prior to the cross; after the cross, things changed! The power of the cross!
I believe there are other things to explore besides just either someone is d e a d, or in heaven right now. The spirit immediately returns to God. That means something. The early Jews believed in an "abode of the dead" - a sort of holding place, IIRC. Though Paul was already saved, he still strove and hoped for something - a better resurrection. I believe his spirit was already saved, through grace by faith GIVEN by God - but he still hoped to attain something.
I know very little. I do know Jesus Christ, Him crucified, risen again for our salvation and deliverance. In Him we have Life.
I think the thing Paul hoped to attain is the heavenly body spoken of in 2 Cor 5:1.
He says without it, he would be naked. Does that mean there are liviing naked souls in the place of the dead? Those who are not saved in this age?
Ok I don't want to give anyone nightmares but just asking, because that's what he said---lest I be found naked.
:bigGrin:
C Miclaus and L Mize - "We already know from the Bible that in order to have access to Heaven/New Jerusalem, a person must be saved. Now, usually, when we say that a person was saved, we mean that person accepted Christ into his life. Now, let me say that even though you were saved (at a specific time and place), you are still in the process of salvation. Your spirit is saved, but some other parts of you are not yet saved. The Bible says: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21) Yes, that is true, your soul is not saved yet!
Salvation takes place in three times: past, present and future. You were saved (that is your spirit) when you admitted you are a sinner and accepted Jesus as your personal Savor; that was in the past. You are in the process of salvation, now, in the present (salvation of the soul). And, you will be saved in the future, when God will completely take away sin from you (that is your body)."
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/saved_9919.msg127787.html#msg127787
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/saved_9919.msg127844.html#msg127844
Do you think that all of our sin comes from this flesh body? And, that without it, we will be without sin?
But we know there are evil spirits, the Bible talks of them.
Here's what I'm thinking--the cross is so powerful that everyone is preserved alive and aware after death.
But only those in Christ receive heavenly bodies and are in heaven.
The souls that are naked go somewhere else.
This is sort of a Catholic purgatory idea, except it would be all souls.
[The Catholics just let the ones they call saints into heaven itself without purgatory. ]
Hi Molly. No, I personally don't believe all sin comes from the "body" and without it we will be sin-free, or that even with our new body, that
makes us sin-free. I just believe the immortal body is the end result, the fait accompli of the end of the process (the saving of spirit, then soul, then [redemption of the] body.
Yes, I'm really believing there is some intermediary state/place, a "holding place" - somewhere/something besides rotting in the grave [spirit goes to God/"if you believe in Me you will NEVER die"] and everyone instantly either going to "heaven or hell". The resurrections come in there somewhere, and since those in Christ never die, then IMO, there must be another option.
Just curious, but why "not" believe that . .not even sure how you worded it . . .sin only manifests in the body of flesh?
Quote from: Nathan on December 16, 2011, 08:33:40 PM
Just curious, but why "not" believe that . .not even sure how you worded it . . .sin only manifests in the body of flesh?
Because we see the existence of evil spirits who are evil without flesh?
:dontknow:
Quote from: Molly on December 16, 2011, 08:58:23 PM
Quote from: Nathan on December 16, 2011, 08:33:40 PM
Just curious, but why "not" believe that . .not even sure how you worded it . . .sin only manifests in the body of flesh?
Because we see the existence of evil spirits who are evil without flesh?
:dontknow:
Very good point! Nathan had me wondering for a sec but yeah, you're right.
I very well could be wrong, but this is how I'm leaning recently. I personally believe it has more to do with a sinful nature still in existence that must be destroyed, rather than being strictly caused by a body of flesh (layers of skin, bones, ligaments, organs, etc.). I believe the sinful (corrupt) nature and flesh are sometimes used interchangeably, but that the primary thing is the nature. That's what I believe, and then I looked up a few things just now. I found that sarkos is used 38 times in the NT, and is almost always translated as "flesh". However, a couple of times it is sort of clarified in definition with "carnal ordinances" and "preferred will".
In the I Cor. 5:5 passage, where Paul is turning the one over to satan for destruction so his spirit will be saved, again most translations say "flesh". A couple, the New Living Translation and God's Word translation say "sinful nature destroyed" and "corrupt nature destroyed". IMO, they got it more accurate. I'm not saying the rest of them saying "flesh" is wrong, because IMO, that's sort of an accepted description of our sinfulness - but again, I tend to believe it really boils down to a nature or will, not just skin, hair, and muscles, etc.
The chapter of Romans 7 fits well here!
Quote from: jabcat on December 16, 2011, 09:12:45 PM
I very well could be wrong, but this is how I'm leaning recently. I personally believe it has more to do with a sinful nature still in existence that must be destroyed, rather than being strictly caused by a body of flesh (layers of skin, bones, ligaments, organs, etc.).
I agree.
The body of Jesus was like that of all other Jews/people.
A body is just animated dead dust.
The "thing" that animates the body is the "thing" that makes choices. Either good or bad.
Quote from: jabcat on December 16, 2011, 09:12:45 PM
I very well could be wrong, but this is how I'm leaning recently. I personally believe it has more to do with a sinful nature still in existence that must be destroyed, rather than being strictly caused by a body of flesh (layers of skin, bones, ligaments, organs, etc.). I believe the sinful (corrupt) nature and flesh are sometimes used interchangeably, but that the primary thing is the nature. That's what I believe, and then I looked up a few things just now. I found that sarkos is used 38 times in the NT, and is almost always translated as "flesh". However, a couple of times it is sort of clarified in definition with "carnal ordinances" and "preferred will".
In the I Cor. 5:5 passage, where Paul is turning the one over to satan for destruction so his spirit will be saved, again most translations say "flesh". A couple, the New Living Translation and God's Word translation say "sinful nature destroyed" and "corrupt nature destroyed". IMO, they got it more accurate. I'm not saying the rest of them saying "flesh" is wrong, because IMO, that's sort of an accepted description of our sinfulness - but again, I tend to believe it really boils down to a nature or will, not just skin, hair, and muscles, etc.
Interesting, thanks Jabcat.
Quote from: Molly on December 16, 2011, 08:58:23 PM
Quote from: Nathan on December 16, 2011, 08:33:40 PM
Just curious, but why "not" believe that . .not even sure how you worded it . . .sin only manifests in the body of flesh?
Because we see the existence of evil spirits who are evil without flesh?
:dontknow:
"you" maybe, but I'm still not sold on that one.
I agree that it's the sinful "nature" that we're talking about . . .but the evidence of sin is death . . .death is not eternal, it's only temporary. As is our flesh . . hence, only through flesh does sin manifest . . .for that matter, only through the "EYES" of flesh can sin be acknowledged. In the spirit, sin doesn't exist. May sound controversial, but sin literally means to "miss the mark" and that is all. When you're in the spirit, . .the spirit "is" the mark . . .or at least the path of the mark, the mark is Christ . . kinda hard to be in the mark and missing the mark at the same time ain't it?
Oh, speaking of which, I have no idea what thread it was on, it was a couple of days ago . . .but it had to do with . .oh .. it was the discussion about Job and all of that and the comment was about him seeing Jesus.
We had our last Bible study this past Wednesday night and in it we've been in Genesis for a while now and we're up to Jacob's ladder . . .there's SOO much going on there but the coolest part for me was after he got up the next morning and he took the stone he had laid his head on and he poured oil on it . . .THAT was Jacob manifesting Jesus . . .The Rock is Jesus himself, the oil being poured is "anointing" and that's what "Christ" literally means . .the anointed . . .so when Jacob took the rock and anointed it, God is telling us that the "house of God" (Bethel) "Is" Jesus Christ . . .I just thought that was really cool how God uses the natural and reveals the spiritual on so many levels.
Quote from: Nathan on December 16, 2011, 10:37:33 PM
I agree that it's the sinful "nature" that we're talking about . . .but the evidence of sin is death . . .death is not eternal, it's only temporary. As is our flesh . . hence, only through flesh does sin manifest . . .for that matter, only through the "EYES" of flesh can sin be acknowledged. In the spirit, sin doesn't exist. May sound controversial, but sin literally means to "miss the mark" and that is all. When you're in the spirit, . .the spirit "is" the mark . . .or at least the path of the mark, the mark is Christ . . kinda hard to be in the mark and missing the mark at the same time ain't it?
Oh, speaking of which, I have no idea what thread it was on, it was a couple of days ago . . .but it had to do with . .oh .. it was the discussion about Job and all of that and the comment was about him seeing Jesus.
We had our last Bible study this past Wednesday night and in it we've been in Genesis for a while now and we're up to Jacob's ladder . . .there's SOO much going on there but the coolest part for me was after he got up the next morning and he took the stone he had laid his head on and he poured oil on it . . .THAT was Jacob manifesting Jesus . . .The Rock is Jesus himself, the oil being poured is "anointing" and that's what "Christ" literally means . .the anointed . . .so when Jacob took the rock and anointed it, God is telling us that the "house of God" (Bethel) "Is" Jesus Christ . . .I just thought that was really cool how God uses the natural and reveals the spiritual on so many levels.
Yes, it is really cool.
And, also Jacob's ladder is Jesus.
51And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man. John 1
Notice how the angels ascend first--that means they are originating on earth.
Quote from: Molly on December 16, 2011, 10:47:16 PM
Yes, it is really cool.
And, also Jacob's ladder is Jesus.
51And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man. John 1
Notice how the angels ascend first--that means they are originating on earth.
Genesis 28:12-13
And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
In the dream, the ladder reached up to heaven, and the Lord stood above it. The ladder, then, is not in the place of Christ. Rather, the land where Jacob slept, and the entire promised land, was a place where revelations from God would be given. The Old Testament contains revelations and promises made to Jacob's descendants. On John 1:51, W.D. Davies wrote:
The point of John 1:51, in part at least, is that it is no longer the place, Bethel, that is important, but the Person of the Son of Man. It is in his Person that "the house of God and the gate of heaven" are now found. Where the Son of Man is the "heaven will be opened" and the angels will ascend and descend to connect that heaven with earth, that is, in 1:51 Jesus is not to be set over against Jacob or the ladder of his dream, but over against the sanctuary at Bethel itself, which had been a link between heaven and earth and the place of God's habitation on earth. This interpretation has the advantage over many others proposed of relying simply on the Biblical text at Gen. 28. Furthermore, it comports well with the idea of the humanity of Christ as the dwelling place of God with men and as the new temple with which we have already dealt, and especially with the concept of the Logos becoming flesh in 1:14.
The Gospel and the Land: Early Christianity and Jewish Territorial Doctrine, by W. D. Davies. [U. of California Press 1974] p. 298.
Doug
Quote from: Doug on December 17, 2011, 12:32:08 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 16, 2011, 10:47:16 PM
Yes, it is really cool.
And, also Jacob's ladder is Jesus.
51And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man. John 1
Notice how the angels ascend first--that means they are originating on earth.
Genesis 28:12-13
And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
In the dream, the ladder reached up to heaven, and the Lord stood above it. The ladder, then, is not in the place of Christ. Rather, the land where Jacob slept, and the entire promised land, was a place where revelations from God would be given. The Old Testament contains revelations and promises made to Jacob's descendants. On John 1:51, W.D. Davies wrote:
The point of John 1:51, in part at least, is that it is no longer the place, Bethel, that is important, but the Person of the Son of Man. It is in his Person that "the house of God and the gate of heaven" are now found. Where the Son of Man is the "heaven will be opened" and the angels will ascend and descend to connect that heaven with earth, that is, in 1:51 Jesus is not to be set over against Jacob or the ladder of his dream, but over against the sanctuary at Bethel itself, which had been a link between heaven and earth and the place of God's habitation on earth. This interpretation has the advantage over many others proposed of relying simply on the Biblical text at Gen. 28. Furthermore, it comports well with the idea of the humanity of Christ as the dwelling place of God with men and as the new temple with which we have already dealt, and especially with the concept of the Logos becoming flesh in 1:14.
The Gospel and the Land: Early Christianity and Jewish Territorial Doctrine, by W. D. Davies. [U. of California Press 1974] p. 298.
Doug
14And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
15And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.
16And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.
17And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God,
and this is the gate of heaven.--Gen 28
John 10:9
I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture.
Quote from: Molly on December 17, 2011, 01:06:34 AM
Quote from: Doug on December 17, 2011, 12:32:08 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 16, 2011, 10:47:16 PM
Yes, it is really cool.
And, also Jacob's ladder is Jesus.
51And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man. John 1
Notice how the angels ascend first--that means they are originating on earth.
Genesis 28:12-13
And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
In the dream, the ladder reached up to heaven, and the Lord stood above it. The ladder, then, is not in the place of Christ. Rather, the land where Jacob slept, and the entire promised land, was a place where revelations from God would be given. The Old Testament contains revelations and promises made to Jacob's descendants. On John 1:51, W.D. Davies wrote:
The point of John 1:51, in part at least, is that it is no longer the place, Bethel, that is important, but the Person of the Son of Man. It is in his Person that "the house of God and the gate of heaven" are now found. Where the Son of Man is the "heaven will be opened" and the angels will ascend and descend to connect that heaven with earth, that is, in 1:51 Jesus is not to be set over against Jacob or the ladder of his dream, but over against the sanctuary at Bethel itself, which had been a link between heaven and earth and the place of God's habitation on earth. This interpretation has the advantage over many others proposed of relying simply on the Biblical text at Gen. 28. Furthermore, it comports well with the idea of the humanity of Christ as the dwelling place of God with men and as the new temple with which we have already dealt, and especially with the concept of the Logos becoming flesh in 1:14.
The Gospel and the Land: Early Christianity and Jewish Territorial Doctrine, by W. D. Davies. [U. of California Press 1974] p. 298.
Doug
14And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
15And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.
16And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.
17And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.
--Gen 28
John 10:9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture.
The ladder in Jacob's dream suggests a connection between heaven and earth, and between God and man. Angels ascending and descending suggests messages going from God to man and vice versa.
The Samaritans had a temple on Mt. Gerizim, near the site of Bethel, in the time of Jesus. When he was at Bethel, or Sychar, Jesus said that neither the holy place there ['this mountain' = Gerizim] nor Jerusalem were significant, but "they that worship God must worship him in spirit and in truth."
John 4:21-24
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Doug
On the one hand, the book of Revelation describes Jesus as a lamb, who stands on mount Zion with 144,000 saints who "follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth;" on the other hand, he is portrayed as ruling the nations with a rod of iron, and "treading the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God" as the King of kings, and Lord of lords.
These are contrasting images, but both are valid throughout the present age. Similarly, the saints are portrayed in the prophetic Scriptures both as sheep, and also as kings. In Ezekiel 34:6, God's sheep wander through all the mountains, and are scattered upon all the face of the earth. They are preyed upon by shepherds who rule over them with cruelty. [vs. 4] God says he will seek his sheep, and he will deliver them from those shepherds, [vs. 10] and bring them to the mountains of Israel (http://wp.me/p1iV8y-PX), where they will feed by the rivers; [vs. 13] David will be their prince, and their shepherd. [vs. 23-24] In John 10:11, Jesus identifies himself as the good shepherd. "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep."
The image of Christ as the shepherd, and the saints as sheep occurs in Zechariah. This prophecy is cited in Matthew 26:31 and in Mark 14:27.
Zechariah 13:7
Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
In the introductory verses of Revelation, John describes the saints of the present age as kings and priests unto God. [Revelation 1:6] The four beasts and 24 elders, who represent those who are redeemed by Christ's blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation, sing a new song which says God has "made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." [Revelation 5:10]
In Revelation 12:1, the woman in heaven is adorned with a crown of twelve stars, depicting saints who reign with Christ as kings and priests.
In the Old Testament, the kings of Israel and Judah were anointed. The saints are also called anointed. Paul said, "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God." [2 Corinthians 1:21] He said believers have been sealed with the spirit of promise. [Ephesians 1:13; Revelation 7:2-4]
Kings of Judah and Israel ruled over the territory of the promised land. In the New Testament, the promised land is a shadow and type of a "better country," a heavenly one, which represents the spiritual things promised to the saints. [Hebrews 11:16]
Kings of Judah and Israel often had to defend their territory against aggression by foreign invaders; similarly, believers are involved in spiritual warfare; the truth of the Gospel, and faith in God's promises, is the spiritual territory they defend. [Ephesians 6:12]
The kings of Judah were descendants of David, and James identified the saints with the tabernacle of David. [Acts 15:16]
The apostle Peter said the saints are a "royal priesthood." [1 Peter 2:9-10]
The locusts in Revelation 9:7 wear "crowns like gold," evidently alluding to their status as believers. See this post (http://wp.me/p1iV8y-2n) for more.
These references connecting the saints to royalty and reigning as kings are all consistent with John's statement in Revelation 20, that those saints who are figuratively "beheaded" reign with Christ for 1,000 years. Several Scriptures indicate beheading is symbolic of submission to God. The individual, discrete millennial reigns of the saints sometimes end prematurely. Zechariah said two thirds of the flock would be "cut off and die" and a third would be left, who would be refined as silver or gold.
In Revelation 12:4, a third of the stars are cast to the earth; they follow the tail of the dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, who is identified in verse 9 as Satan. This corresponds to their thousand year reigns ending, as described in Revelation 20:8-9. They turn aside from the faith, and are deceived, compass the camp of the saints about.
Revelation 20:7-9
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
The fiery judgment is likely what Paul described in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
Doug
Quote from: Molly on December 16, 2011, 10:47:16 PM
Yes, it is really cool.
And, also Jacob's ladder is Jesus.
51And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man. John 1
Notice how the angels ascend first--that means they are originating on earth.
:cloud9: Yes.....and/or......the "ladder" is as stairs going up, as the priests ascending the stairs of the temple ministering from outer (man) to inner courts (man's hearts), to the Holy of Holies (to the Lord God).
We do it now, "ascending" into His presence in the Spirit (son of God), receiving and bringing it "down" to the sons of men (son of Man) HE resides in.
It's the circle of life, the power of an endless life, ever in His presence (whether ministering to Him in the Spirit or in vessels of clay), ministereth a High Priest continually unto God.The Kingdom of God cometh not with observation. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: thinktank on December 16, 2011, 10:21:03 PM
Quote from: jabcat on December 16, 2011, 09:12:45 PM
I very well could be wrong, but this is how I'm leaning recently. I personally believe it has more to do with a sinful nature still in existence that must be destroyed, rather than being strictly caused by a body of flesh (layers of skin, bones, ligaments, organs, etc.). I believe the sinful (corrupt) nature and flesh are sometimes used interchangeably, but that the primary thing is the nature. That's what I believe, and then I looked up a few things just now. I found that sarkos is used 38 times in the NT, and is almost always translated as "flesh". However, a couple of times it is sort of clarified in definition with "carnal ordinances" and "preferred will".
In the I Cor. 5:5 passage, where Paul is turning the one over to satan for destruction so his spirit will be saved, again most translations say "flesh". A couple, the New Living Translation and God's Word translation say "sinful nature destroyed" and "corrupt nature destroyed". IMO, they got it more accurate. I'm not saying the rest of them saying "flesh" is wrong, because IMO, that's sort of an accepted description of our sinfulness - but again, I tend to believe it really boils down to a nature or will, not just skin, hair, and muscles, etc.
Interesting, thanks Jabcat.
yw, thx :thumbsup:
Quote from: Cardinal on December 17, 2011, 05:05:02 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 16, 2011, 10:47:16 PM
Yes, it is really cool.
And, also Jacob's ladder is Jesus.
51And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man. John 1
Notice how the angels ascend first--that means they are originating on earth.
:cloud9: Yes.....and/or......the "ladder" is as stairs going up, as the priests ascending the stairs of the temple ministering from outer (man) to inner courts (man's hearts), to the Holy of Holies (to the Lord God).
We do it now, "ascending" into His presence in the Spirit (son of God), receiving and bringing it "down" to the sons of men (son of Man) HE resides in.
It's the circle of life, the power of an endless life, ever in His presence (whether ministering to Him in the Spirit or in vessels of clay), ministereth a High Priest continually unto God.The Kingdom of God cometh not with observation. My :2c: Blessings....
This author thinks the Temple was vertical not horizontal.
Two Winding StaircasesThe First Temple as drawn by Ezekiel had a winding staircase built within the thick wall which accessed the higher chambers. Josephus confirms that a large winding staircase existed in the First Temple. He claims it was built in its thick wall. The Bible states it was built in the thick southern wall. The Second Temple did not have a winding staircase.
"The door for the middle chamber was in the right side of the house and they went up with winding stairs into the middle chamber, and out of the middle into the third." MELAKHIM 6:8 JB
"The door for the middle chamber was in the right side of the house: and they went up with winding stairs into the middle chamber, and out of the middle into the third." 1 KINGS 6:8 KJV
There are clearly two winding staircases. In order to use two winding staircases you would need 3 chambers stacked on top of each other and such is the case in this model of Solomon's Temple when you incorporate Ezekiel's measurements. The winding staircase is attached to "the right side of the house" I Kings 6:8 and goes up through the arch in the ceiling.
At the North Gate the blood from the sacrifice was drained into a goblet which was brought up the stairs by the High Priest once a year. In the ritual it took blood to approach the throne room. Once the High Priest passed through the curtain and entered into the Holy Throne Room the blood was then sprinkled on God who was resting in the Ark. He was always pleased. There is no record of Him striking to death any High Priest who brought the blood. The first set of winding stairs for house chamber (60 x 20) start there and connect up into the 40 x 20 chamber (I Kings 6:33)
In a horizontal Temple model the 60 x 20 chamber has a ceiling of 30, but the Holy of Holies has a ceiling of 20. If the Holy Chamber was elevated this would allow one winding staircase to enter it but where would the second winding staircase go? I Kings 6:2 & 8
Historian Josephus states this is how the winding staircases was constructed in Solomon's Temple.
"The king (Solomon) also had a fine contrivance for an ascent to the upper room over the temple, and that was by steps in the thickness of its wall."
Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, B-VIII, C-3, V-2.
At the time that Josephus was told about the construction of Solomon's Temple it had been destroyed 500 years prior. So the memory of perhaps the Holy of Holies chamber being ascended by stairs might have been lost in the oral tradition, but if this model is correct it was sealed in the written tradition of the Hebrew Bible.
In the first winding staircase it incorporates one-fifth (1/5) of the thickness of the wall to stabilize the staircase. In the second chamber the winding staircase is constructed of and tied into one-forth (1/4) of the thickness of the wall. Probably because the walls are pylon shaped it uses less of the stone wall in the middle chamber. I Kings 6:31-33
Solomon's Temple is the only building on record which incorporated an arched ceiling which spanned 20 cubits (35′). Keep in mind this Temple predates the Roman Empire by nearly 1,000 years. Additionally there were three gigantic arches in Solomon's Temple for the 3 chambers of the main structure.
Question: Which type of temple could best utilize two winding staircases: A horizontal temple or a vertical Temple? The TWO winding staircases is more evidence that the main tower structure might have had three stories and built vertically.
http://www.solomonstemple.com/the-temple/two-winding-staircases/
I have read some, but not all, of the discourse that has built upon this "rapture dream" offered by TT. The only thing that I read was by either WW or Cardinal, that the time and dates must a meaning for something.... for they had been written. That has value and I certainly believe that there is importance; but I, that's just me, see nor hear any ring of bells or awakening of revelation in what has been brought forth. We have but mathematical figures of biblical times and those dealing with the "assumption" of a "rapture."
For me, and of course it is only my opinion, but to gather all this information one has to believe in, and accept the "rapture" teaching.... be it pre, mid, or post. to be a viable thought and teaching.
I for one, yes of course it is but my opinion, that the "rapture" teaching is very much man's idea of how man figures man will get out being an overcomer. The teaching posseses no power, and for a surety gives The Lord God a very weak stance in His purpose. Will the saints be caught up, snatched....YES but not to be taken out of, but with the Power and Glory to go through.
It is "silly" to even consider that the Father would remove the very identity of His Greatness from the midist of the last battle. Of course this is but my opinion.
http://www.afterlifetv.com/2011/12/07/a-fascinating-near-death-experience-during-a-coma-a-powerful-message-that-could-change-your-life/
one ladies near death experience; and she talks about time, separation vs. NOW and oneness. worth watching, at least imo.
listening to this, brings such peace and life :) UNCONDITIONAL LOVE.......All there is
to KNOW LOVE casts out ALL FEAR
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 18, 2011, 05:18:26 AMFor me, and of course it is only my opinion, but to gather all this information one has to believe in, and accept the "rapture" teaching.... be it pre, mid, or post. to be a viable thought and teaching.
I for one, yes of course it is but my opinion, that the "rapture" teaching is very much man's idea of how man figures man will get out being an overcomer.
Perhaps history can give a hint.
The Protestants split of the Roman church. The RCC reacts with increasing oppression. Not long afterwards every denomination besides the Catholic was of opinion that the RCC was huntig down saints as decribed in Revelation. RCC was the little horn, the beast etc. Then a Catholic monk wrote a book that "proves" the beast will emerge only during the end times. Because back then it wasn't end times it was the absolute proof RCC wasn't the beast.
Maybe the monk was right. Or very wrong. The point is that the centuries before the monk's book such teaching did not exist.
Quote from: Doug on December 04, 2011, 09:06:03 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2011, 08:54:59 PM
I'n that case it's not 3.5 year/midst of the week (Sabbath cycle).
Besides of that I think His ministry must last 3 year or longer because trees bear fruit/are allowed to be harvested at the age of 3.
:dontknow:
Luke reported the date of the beginning of John's ministry. There is no precise information on when Jesus' ministry began, other than its connection with the ministry of John. Perhaps the three and a half years, or the first half-week of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, includes the time of John's ministry. When John was put in prison, Jesus began to preach, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand." [Mark 1:15]
What time was fulfilled? Was he referring to the events of the 70th week?
Doug
Eph 1:9-10 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him (10)
with a view to(from the perspective of) an administration suitable to the fullness(pleroma -completion) of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.
1Pe 1:20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but
has appeared(has been manifested) in these last times for the sake of you
Act 17:26-28 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined
their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, (27) that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; (28) for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'
Gal 4:4-5 But
when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, (5) so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
Act 1:7-9 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; (8) but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth." (9) And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
Act 3:18-21 "But the things
which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. (19) "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; (20) and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, (21) whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
Act 17:30-31 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, (31)
because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
Great discussion you guys are having. I think "the time is fulfilled the kingdom of God is at hand" means- since God's plan is an administration, or dispensation of times, that at the time Christ was on the earth(Gal. 4:4,5)- the time was come for the next stage in the revelation of God to the entire kosmos(Romans 8:19-21). First the Hebrews(in Abraham,Moses,David), then the church(Bride, Body, Sons), then the whole creation(All in All, restoration and reconciliation of all)Col 1 Eph 1 Acts 3:21). The time for the kingdom of God (Lordship of Jesus, law of love, gathering of all) was "at hand".....within reach, manifest in this time(because of the Spirit, that was not given till Jesus was glorified). This because the kingdom of God is not meat nor drink, but righteousness peace and joy in the Holy SPirit. (for the promise is to you and your children and to all who are afar off.)
So, after this age ends, the time will be fulfilled(the time of Israel was fulfilled, then swallowed by the church,the time of the church will be swallowed by the sons, until all creation set is free into the glorious liberty of the sons Ro 8:19-21) and the period of the restoration of all things will begin as the sons of God are "manifested"( we eagerly await, the whole creation groans awaiting the revelation of the sons of god....the "redemption of our bodies") .... a kingdom of priests on earth(bringing heaven to earth, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, city of God"coming down out of heaven adorned").
Just some thoughts as I was reading your posts. No desire to interrupt. Peace, John
Quote from: eaglesway on December 19, 2011, 07:03:03 AM
a kingdom of priests on earth
And it is not the Aaronic — yea, the Melchizedek Priesthood.
Quote from: eaglesway on December 19, 2011, 07:03:03 AM
...
Eph 1:9-10 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him (10) with a view to(from the perspective of) an administration suitable to the fullness(pleroma -completion) of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.
1Pe 1:20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared(has been manifested) in these last times for the sake of you
Act 17:26-28 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, (27) that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; (28) for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'
Gal 4:4-5 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, (5) so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
Act 1:7-9 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; (8) but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth." (9) And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
Act 3:18-21 "But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. (19) "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; (20) and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, (21) whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
Act 17:30-31 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, (31) because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
Another reference that seems to fit in with the ones listed above is 1 John 2:18, "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."
John wrote his epistle near the end of the first century. When he wrote "the last time," he may have alluded to the last of four periods of "seven times" in Leviticus 26, during which God would be reconciled to his people and "remember the land." This "seven times" corresponds to the 70th week, which would be what John called "the last time." The 70th week had not ended three and a half years after the crucifixion as some think; it continues to the present time, as it is the week in which Jesus
confirms his covenant with many. This covenant is the Gospel. John identified the present age as "the last time." He referred to the prophecy of Daniel 7, and the little horn of the fourth beast described there, who represents the antichrist. John said "even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." The church was falling prey to people who John called "antichrists." Below is a graphic illustrating how the various numbers, 1,335 days, 1,290 days, 1,260 days each represent diminishing parts of the last half-week, the time, times and a half.
(http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/%7Etcc/D70/timeline1.png)
In most futurist prophetic schemes these numbers start with the same event and end with different events. But in the above chart, they begin at different times, and extend to the end of the age as indicated in Daniel 12:7. The outermost period, "this generation," began with the birth of Jesus, and continues forever, as Jesus was raised up, and remains alive. The next line, with the label 1,335 days, is the one that spans all the time from the resurrection to the end of the age. Daniel said, "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." [Daniel 12:12] Who else could this refer to, but Jesus?
On the 1,290 days, Daniel said "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." [Daniel 12:11] The
abomination he spoke of is none other than the "many antichrists" that John refers to in 1 John 2:18.
And finally, the line labeled 1,260 days corresponds to the time of the ministry of the two witnesses, [Revelation 11:3] and the period for which the woman flees to the wilderness. [Revelation 12:6] This is smaller than the previous numbers and shows the diminishing nature of the "time, times and a half," the whole age of the church. Time tends to run out, as those of us who are getting older are finding out. The period dates from when the book of Revelation was written, probably near the end of the first century. The two witnesses include the book of Revelation, IMO.
Quote from: eaglesway on December 19, 2011, 07:03:03 AM
Great discussion you guys are having. I think "the time is fulfilled the kingdom of God is at hand" means- since God's plan is an administration, or dispensation of times, that at the time Christ was on the earth(Gal. 4:4,5)- the time was come for the next stage in the revelation of God to the entire kosmos(Romans 8:19-21). First the Hebrews(in Abraham,Moses,David), then the church(Bride, Body, Sons), then the whole creation(All in All, restoration and reconciliation of all)Col 1 Eph 1 Acts 3:21). The time for the kingdom of God (Lordship of Jesus, law of love, gathering of all) was "at hand".....within reach, manifest in this time(because of the Spirit, that was not given till Jesus was glorified). This because the kingdom of God is not meat nor drink, but righteousness peace and joy in the Holy SPirit. (for the promise is to you and your children and to all who are afar off.)
So, after this age ends, the time will be fulfilled(the time of Israel was fulfilled, then swallowed by the church,the time of the church will be swallowed by the sons, until all creation set is free into the glorious liberty of the sons Ro 8:19-21) and the period of the restoration of all things will begin as the sons of God are "manifested"( we eagerly await, the whole creation groans awaiting the revelation of the sons of god....the "redemption of our bodies") .... a kingdom of priests on earth(bringing heaven to earth, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, city of God"coming down out of heaven adorned").
Just some thoughts as I was reading your posts. No desire to interrupt. Peace, John
Doug
Quote from: Doug on December 19, 2011, 03:10:09 PM
The outermost period, "this generation," began with the birth of Jesus, and continues forever, as Jesus was raised up, and remains alive.
:cloud9: Amen, He gave me this very thing. The last generation is one of Spirit, whose Seed we carry. My :2c:
From the erection of the first temple by Solomon, to the destruction of the Herodian temple in 70 AD spans a little more than a thousand years. If the time for which Solomon's temple lay in ruins is excluded, a temple was standing in Jerusalem for a little less than a thousand years. Perhaps John's use of a thousand years in Revelation 20 is connected to the period in history when a literal temple of God, made by hands, stood in Jerusalem.
In the ministry of Jesus, the prophecy of Malachi was fulfilled:
Malachi 3:1
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Jesus is the "messenger of the covenant," and the Gospel accounts relate that he came to the temple and taught there, and cast out the merchants, who had turned it into a "den of thieves." [Matthew 21:13]
In Discrete Millennialism, the thousand years represents the time that individual believers who have been figuratively "beheaded" reign with Christ, and when Satan is bound, and cast into a bottomless pit. They are each living stones in the spiritual temple. Peter said: "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." [1 Peter 2:5] Because the literal temple remained for about a thousand years that seems quite suitable and fitting as a symbol of the time of a believer's reign with Christ.
Paul said every believer is a temple of God, and the church is also called the temple of God. [Ephesians 2:20-21] Paul said, "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" [1 Corinthians 3:16]
The thousand years for which a literal temple stood in Jerusalem may be considered a type and shadow of period for which each believer reigns with Christ, when they are kings and priests unto God. [Revelation 1:6]
Just as Jesus visited the temple at Jerusalem, and fulfilled Malachi's prophecy, the prophets show that he will also come to his church by his Spirit, and also to every believer. [Ezekiel 43:5; Revelation 15:8]
For the earthly temples the thousand years ended in 70 AD, and about that time is when the abomination of desolation was set up in the spiritual temple, the church. Daniel said, "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days." The daily sacrifices ended when the temple was destroyed. Daniel also says this occurred "in the midst" of the 70th week. "In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering." [Daniel 9:27]
Doug
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 18, 2011, 05:18:26 AM
I have read some, but not all, of the discourse that has built upon this "rapture dream" offered by TT. The only thing that I read was by either WW or Cardinal, that the time and dates must a meaning for something.... for they had been written. That has value and I certainly believe that there is importance; but I, that's just me, see nor hear any ring of bells or awakening of revelation in what has been brought forth. We have but mathematical figures of biblical times and those dealing with the "assumption" of a "rapture."
For me, and of course it is only my opinion, but to gather all this information one has to believe in, and accept the "rapture" teaching.... be it pre, mid, or post. to be a viable thought and teaching.
I for one, yes of course it is but my opinion, that the "rapture" teaching is very much man's idea of how man figures man will get out being an overcomer. The teaching posseses no power, and for a surety gives The Lord God a very weak stance in His purpose. Will the saints be caught up, snatched....YES but not to be taken out of, but with the Power and Glory to go through.
It is "silly" to even consider that the Father would remove the very identity of His Greatness from the midist of the last battle. Of course this is but my opinion.
You forgot the part where the raptured saints come back to earth. It is a possibility that we get raptured to meet the lord in the air, then maybe return to Jerusalem to minister to the Israelites, as Paul said they would all be saved.
But to assume that, one would be "adding to" Scripture. Those that embrace the literal interpretation of that are pulling it from Thessalonians and there's no mention of returning to earth there . . .there it's just "caught up in the air and there we shall forever be . . ."
I have a question about Eze 37, the dry bones chapter. Although I doubt anyone here will like this question, maybe I can get some help with it.
The chapter seems to me to be an end of age description. It starts out with the dry bones being revived and brought back to life. It includes the bringing together again of all the scattered tribes of Israel into one nation [two sticks in one hand] [even though ten of the tribes are lost to history]. Then it ends with everyone living happily and in peace and with God in their midst.
So, here's my question. If this is end of age, and a description of the first resurrection and/or the manifested sons of God, the ending passages confuse me because it talks of 'multiplying' themselves and of their children and their children's children. I was assuming there would be no more marrying or giving in marriage after the resurrection. So how could this be? [I told you that you wouldn't like the question--because I am reading it very literally].
25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
--Eze 37
Quote from: Nathan on December 21, 2011, 05:44:34 PM
But to assume that, one would be "adding to" Scripture. Those that embrace the literal interpretation of that are pulling it from Thessalonians and there's no mention of returning to earth there . . .there it's just "caught up in the air and there we shall forever be . . ."
I think it's ok to piece together pieces of scripture in order to see the whole, generally speaking.
The whole piece is scattered throughout the Bible, which is one thing that makes it a coded book.
As much as I do not accept the "rapture teaching" on this post, those caught up, do return with the Lord.
If one will look at the other 2 times the word "meet"(to meetG1519 G529) is used besides 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
You will see that they went to meet and went with, they did not stay. As much as I do not accept the "rapture teaching" those caught do return with the Lord.
It is reasonably the same with Act 28:15 And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage.
They all returned with who they went to meet. Just something to consider.
To meet to meetG1519 G529
But, of course, it doesn t say...."there we shall be"
It says "thus shall we ever be with the Lord" who, if one believes in the second coming as both a literal and spiritual event, (I do) will merge his heavenly throne into the earth, or, a better way to put it, manifest it over the earth, and continue the "ministry of reconciliation".
Quote from: Molly on December 21, 2011, 06:04:26 PM
I have a question about Eze 37, the dry bones chapter. Although I doubt anyone here will like this question, maybe I can get some help with it.
The chapter seems to me to be an end of age description. It starts out with the dry bones being revived and brought back to life. It includes the bringing together again of all the scattered tribes of Israel into one nation [two sticks in one hand] [even though ten of the tribes are lost to history]. Then it ends with everyone living happily and in peace and with God in their midst.
So, here's my question. If this is end of age, and a description of the first resurrection and/or the manifested sons of God, the ending passages confuse me because it talks of 'multiplying' themselves and of their children and their children's children. I was assuming there would be no more marrying or giving in marriage after the resurrection. So how could this be? [I told you that you wouldn't like the question--because I am reading it very literally].
25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
--Eze 37
The opening verse tells us that God brought Ezekiel to an ascended place where Ezekiel then saw the dry bones . . .it's about resurrection, restoration,and regeneration. But it's all spiritual. He was "in" the spirit when it was decreed and the bones were not literally scattered in the dirt, he was seeing them in the spirit. He was restoring Israel all right, but in our eyes "we think" it's all about the natural Israel that "we" know of. Yet even Paul tells us it's not about the natural Israel, but the spiritual. That we are all SPIRITUALLY circumcised inwardly. So for me, the dry bones is speaking of a spiritual Israel being restored.
Quote from: Molly on December 21, 2011, 06:04:26 PM
I have a question about Eze 37, the dry bones chapter. Although I doubt anyone here will like this question, maybe I can get some help with it.
The chapter seems to me to be an end of age description. It starts out with the dry bones being revived and brought back to life. It includes the bringing together again of all the scattered tribes of Israel into one nation [two sticks in one hand] [even though ten of the tribes are lost to history]. Then it ends with everyone living happily and in peace and with God in their midst.
So, here's my question. If this is end of age, and a description of the first resurrection and/or the manifested sons of God, the ending passages confuse me because it talks of 'multiplying' themselves and of their children and their children's children. I was assuming there would be no more marrying or giving in marriage after the resurrection. So how could this be? [I told you that you wouldn't like the question--because I am reading it very literally].
Since Jesus said that "when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage," [Mark 12:25] the dry bones vision can't be about the raising of the dead from their graves at the last trump, but it could be referring to a spiritual revival in the church, which in many prophecies is called
Israel. Earlier in this thread, I posted a table showing a correspondence between the structures and subjects of the last few chapters Ezekiel and the last few chapters in Revelation, based on a list in an article by Steve Moyise. [See this post (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/book_revelation/rapture_dream_10137.msg132042.html#msg132042).]
Ezekiel | | Revelation |
Revival of dry bones (Ez. 37:10) | | First resurrection (Rev. 20:5) |
Reunited kingdom (Ez. 37:21) | | Saints rule for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:4) |
Gog & Magog battle (Ez. 38:2) | | Gog & Magog battle (Rev. 20:8) |
Gorging of the birds (Ez. 39:4) | | Gorging of the birds (Rev. 19:21) |
Taken to high mountain (Ez. 40:2) | | Taken to high mountain (Rev. 21:10) |
Temple is measured (Ez. 40:5) | | City is measured (Rev. 21:15) |
Temple full of God's glory (Ez. 43:2) | | City full of God's glory (Rev. 21:23) |
River of life (Ez. 47:12) | | River of life (Rev. 22:2) |
The table suggests the vision of the valley of dry bones corresponds to the first resurrection that John outlines in Revelation 20, when the saints who are (figuratively) beheaded reign with Christ. The bones coming together, joint to joint, and sinews and flesh being added, and then skin, finally life being breathed into them, applies to Christ building his Church in the present age. Although believers have become scattered among tens of thousands of sects and denominations, there are links being formed here and there, and barriers that used to separate various groups are falling down.
There is a great contrast here between Ezekiel's description of the fate of the armies of Gog and Magog, which are described as falling on the plain, and on the mountains of Israel, rained on, and afflicted with overflowing floods, pestilence, fire and brimstone, fighting each other, being eaten by beasts and birds, the corpses causing a great stench, and bones being sought out by men of continual employment, and flagged, and then being buried by another party from the people of Israel for 7 months. While Gog's armies are decimated, the bones that come together represent the whole army of Israel, which signifies the Church in the present age.
Quote from: Molly on December 21, 2011, 06:04:26 PM
25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
--Eze 37
The army corresponds to the saints described in Revelation 19, riding upon white horses, led by Jesus.
"And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant" -- the land is reinterpreted in Hebrews 11:16, as a "heavenly country;" the land of Canaan represents spiritual things promised to the saints, one of which is to understand prophecy. Jesus said, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." [John 16:13]
"David shall be their prince for ever" -- David represents Christ who was born a king and has inherited David's throne, as ruler of the heavenly Jerusalem and the Israel of God.
"they, and their children, and their children's children" -- Paul spoke of Gentile converts as his children.
"Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them" -- This is the new covenant.
"when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore" -- God's sanctuary is the church; the New Jerusalem, described in Revelation 21.
Doug
The opening verse tells us that God brought Ezekiel to an ascended place where Ezekiel then saw the dry bones . . .it's about resurrection, restoration,and regeneration. But it's all spiritual. He was "in" the spirit when it was decreed and the bones were not literally scattered in the dirt, he was seeing them in the spirit. He was restoring Israel all right, but in our eyes "we think" it's all about the natural Israel that "we" know of. Yet even Paul tells us it's not about the natural Israel, but the spiritual. That we are all SPIRITUALLY circumcised inwardly. So for me, the dry bones is speaking of a spiritual Israel being restored.
Nathan
Yes I believe the scriptures testify to that. That all of Israel shall know me in spiritual truth, circumcised in heart. I think the bones are a picture of their bodies being regenerated. I am not sure at the moment, but I reason God has plans for the Israelites, maybe these plans are different to the gentile church. Not sure who is who, but I think God will have a physical flesh and blood people who minister to him from an earthly realm, in order to bring the rest of humanity under his guidance.
Zechariah 8:23
Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
:cloud9: Does everyone realize that WE'RE spiritual Israel?.....if so be it that we have the baptism in the Spirit that begins the circumcision process. My :2c:
So that He may increase and I may decrease.
Quote from: thinktank on December 21, 2011, 08:43:31 PM
The opening verse tells us that God brought Ezekiel to an ascended place where Ezekiel then saw the dry bones . . .it's about resurrection, restoration,and regeneration. But it's all spiritual. He was "in" the spirit when it was decreed and the bones were not literally scattered in the dirt, he was seeing them in the spirit. He was restoring Israel all right, but in our eyes "we think" it's all about the natural Israel that "we" know of. Yet even Paul tells us it's not about the natural Israel, but the spiritual. That we are all SPIRITUALLY circumcised inwardly. So for me, the dry bones is speaking of a spiritual Israel being restored.
Nathan
Yes I believe the scriptures testify to that. That all of Israel shall know me in spiritual truth, circumcised in heart. I think the bones are a picture of their bodies being regenerated. I am not sure at the moment, but I reason God has plans for the Israelites, maybe these plans are different to the gentile church. Not sure who is who, but I think God will have a physical flesh and blood people who minister to him from an earthly realm, in order to bring the rest of humanity under his guidance.
Zechariah 8:23
Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
I see the prophecy as the rebirth of a dead nation, the people of God, scattered, not "knit together in brotherly love",nor "in one mind and one accord", nor, "attain(ing) to the unity of the faith, unto a mature(spiritual) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ".
Then standing up, and "gathering", "jointly built together", "fitly joined" by the "quickened word"(spiritually activated word/rhema), growing by that which every joint and ligament supplies according to the effectual working of "each individual part"- into a great army
Then, by the quickening Spirit, the waiting army(Jericho falls) is "anointed", and "strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man", fully equipped with "weapons mighty through God" for the "Tearing down of every stronghold and every tower that exalts itself against the true knowledge of God-
Joe 2:28-32 "It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions. (29) "Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days. (30) "I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, Blood, fire and columns of smoke. (31) "The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. (32) "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the LORD has said, Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.
The ONE NEW MAN, the many membererd body of Christ, the amalgamated sons of the ages, "others have labored, we have entered into their labors". It is NOW, TODAY, if we hear His voice :o)
I have seen the enemy, and it is us.
I have seen the victory, and it is us too ;o)
Quote from: eaglesway on December 22, 2011, 02:27:56 AM
I have seen the enemy, and it is us.
I have seen the victory, and it is us too ;o)
:thumbsup:
There seem to be some parallels between the prophecy of the dry bones in Ezekiel 37, and the one in the following two chapters about the Gog & Magog invasion, which John interprets in Revelation 20 as an assault by deceived people upon the "camp of the saints" and the "beloved city," the Church. Some possible connections are shown in the following table.
Valley of bones - Ezekiel 37 | | Gog & Magog - Ezekiel 38-39 |
a great many bones [Ez. 37:2] | | a great multitude [Ez. 38:4] |
bones connect to each other [Ez. 37:7] | | bones are searched for and flagged for burial [Ez. 39:12-15] |
sinews and flesh and skin are added [Ez. 37:8] | | flesh is devoured by the birds and beasts [Ez. 39:18] |
when Ezekiel prophesies to the wind, the breath of life comes into them [Ez. 37:10] | | the invaders come against the prophets of Israel [Ez. 38:17] |
an army is created from bones [Ez. 37:10] | | invading armies of Gog and Magog are reduced to bones [Ez. 39:15] |
a great army comes to life in a valley [Ez. 37:10] | | corpses of the slain are buried in a valley [Ez. 39:15] |
God's people are brought into their own land [Ez. 37:12] | | Israel is gathered from the lands of their enemies, and settled in their own land [Ez. 39:28] |
God's spirit is put in them [Ez. 37:14] | | God's spirit is poured out on the house of Israel [Ez. 39:29] |
A New Testament reference to "bones" and "flesh" is Ephesians 5:30, "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones."
Doug
Quote from: Cardinal on December 21, 2011, 10:33:12 PM
:cloud9: Does everyone realize that WE'RE spiritual Israel?.....if so be it that we have the baptism in the Spirit that begins the circumcision process. My :2c:
With that thought, there can be a start.
Yet in religion, orthodoxy theologians and America and especially christianity, we find an upheaval of opinion which deludes our thinking as to what we are to look at. Again with that thought that Cardinal posted,
"Does everyone realize that WE'RE spiritual Israel?" That is so very important and vital, when we listen to the world today and all the problems in the Middle East and the expressions of the political views today. Focus. You hit it Cardinal! :happyclap: :happyclap:
Here's another perspective. :bigGrin:
I am the vine; you are the branches... apart from me you can do nothing. John 15:5
Enemy; ..that enemy of yours, the devil, roams around like a lion roaring [in fierce hunger], seeking someone to seize upon and devour. 2 Corinthians 10:3,4
Victory; I [JESUS] am the living one. I died, but look--I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and the grave. Revelation 1:18
We're the beneficiaries!
"Thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. I Corinthians 15:57
Quote from: eaglesway on December 22, 2011, 02:27:56 AM
Quote from: thinktank on December 21, 2011, 08:43:31 PM
The opening verse tells us that God brought Ezekiel to an ascended place where Ezekiel then saw the dry bones . . .it's about resurrection, restoration,and regeneration. But it's all spiritual. He was "in" the spirit when it was decreed and the bones were not literally scattered in the dirt, he was seeing them in the spirit. He was restoring Israel all right, but in our eyes "we think" it's all about the natural Israel that "we" know of. Yet even Paul tells us it's not about the natural Israel, but the spiritual. That we are all SPIRITUALLY circumcised inwardly. So for me, the dry bones is speaking of a spiritual Israel being restored.
Nathan
Yes I believe the scriptures testify to that. That all of Israel shall know me in spiritual truth, circumcised in heart. I think the bones are a picture of their bodies being regenerated. I am not sure at the moment, but I reason God has plans for the Israelites, maybe these plans are different to the gentile church. Not sure who is who, but I think God will have a physical flesh and blood people who minister to him from an earthly realm, in order to bring the rest of humanity under his guidance.
Zechariah 8:23
Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
I see the prophecy as the rebirth of a dead nation, the people of God, scattered, not "knit together in brotherly love",nor "in one mind and one accord", nor, "attain(ing) to the unity of the faith, unto a mature(spiritual) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ".
Then standing up, and "gathering", "jointly built together", "fitly joined" by the "quickened word"(spiritually activated word/rhema), growing by that which every joint and ligament supplies according to the effectual working of "each individual part"- into a great army
Then, by the quickening Spirit, the waiting army(Jericho falls) is "anointed", and "strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man", fully equipped with "weapons mighty through God" for the "Tearing down of every stronghold and every tower that exalts itself against the true knowledge of God-
Joe 2:28-32 "It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions. (29) "Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days. (30) "I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, Blood, fire and columns of smoke. (31) "The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. (32) "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the LORD has said, Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.
The ONE NEW MAN, the many membererd body of Christ, the amalgamated sons of the ages, "others have labored, we have entered into their labors". It is NOW, TODAY, if we hear His voice :o)
I have seen the enemy, and it is us.
I have seen the victory, and it is us too ;o)
:cloud9: :thumbsup: I also see it as the Omega, those one with Him from the beginning (Alpha).
Although in Revelation 20:8 John mentions Gog and Magog, and thus connects his prophecy to Ezekiel 38 & 39, in some ways his statements saying they "compass the camp of the saints about," and the "beloved city," in verse 9 seem to apply to the prophecies of Zechariah 12 & 14, which describe an assault upon Jerusalem involving all nations.
John shows that the assault is spiritual, and his interpretation implies that Ezekiel 38-39 does not mean that armies riding on horses, armed with bows and arrows, and clubs, and spears, will gather against the earthly Jerusalem either in the near future, or at the end of a thousand year millennial reign.
Rather, Ezekiel's prophecy is about an assault on the church, that involves things of a spiritual nature, such as correctly understanding the Gospel, and correctly interpreting prophecy. These are spiritual things promised to the church. They are represented by the "promised land" in the Old Testament. Those who get the Gospel wrong, and misinterpret the prophets, may be among those who assault the camp of the saints.
Ezekiel identifies Gog & Magog as Gentiles, [Ez. 38:2, 3, 5, 6] and in Zechariah, the warfare involves all the people of the earth; [Zech. 12:3] all nations gather against Jerusalem to battle. [Zech. 14:2]
In Ezekiel, these armies are a great company, [Ez. 38:3] and similarly, in Revelation, John says they number as the sand of the sea. [Rev. 20:8]
God brings them forth; [Ez. 38:4] and God gathers the invading armies in Zechariah. [Zech. 14:2]
Ezekiel said they are armed with swords, spears, bucklers, and shields. [Ez. 38:4] No such weapons are mentioned by Zechariah. But Joel said, they are not wounded, when they fall upon the sword. [Joel 2:8] This implies the sword is not one that is meant to cut flesh; it is a spiritual sword.
They come against the mountains of Israel; [Ez. 38:8] in Joel, they leap upon the tops of mountains. [Joel 2:5] Zechariah said the mount of Olives is cleaved in the midst. [Zech. 14:4] Mountains are symbolic of the promises and blessings of God for the saints. [See this post (http://wp.me/p1iV8y-6B) for more.]
They come against the land brought back from the sword. [Ez. 38:8] Joel said the land is as the garden of Eden before them. [Joel 2:3] The sword is God's word, and the "land brought back from the sword" alludes to Eden. In Zechariah they are in a siege against Judah and against Jerusalem. [Zech. 12:2] These are figures of the heavenly city, and "a better country." [Heb. 11:16]
They come in the latter years; [Ez. 38:8, 16] in both Joel and Ezekiel, the time frame is the day of the Lord. [Joel 2:1; Zech. 14:1]
Ezekiel said they are like a cloud that covers the land. [Ez. 38:9] Joel described "a day of clouds and of thick darkness." [Joel 2:2] Zechariah said it is a day that is "neither clear, nor dark." [Zech. 14:6] The prophet Hosea described men who were "as the morning cloud and as the early dew that passeth away," ... "and as the smoke out of the chimney." [Hosea 13:3] Peter said the false prophets were "clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever." [2 Peter 2:17] The above references suggest the invading hordes of Gog and Magog may be identified with flawed teaching and beliefs so prevalent today, or "dead" churches.
They invade the land of unwalled villages. [Ez. 38:11] In Zechariah, Jerusalem is as "towns without walls." [Zech. 2:4] Neither of these statements fit the earthly Jerusalem, where there is a 700 km long wall or fence of concrete and barbed wire.
They seek to take away a great spoil, silver and gold, and a prey. [Ez. 38:12] Similarly, Zechariah said the spoil is divided in your midst. [Zech. 14:1] Spiritual things that belong to the Church are taken away. One of these is the name "Israel," that most news reporters apply to the Jewish state, but "pseudo-Israel" might be a better name for it. Tens of thousands of denominations and sects take away the unity of the church. Many other examples could be given.
Ezekiel said they all ride upon horses; [Ez. 38:15] in Joel, they appear like horses; [Joel 2:4, Rev. 9:17] Zechariah said every horse will be smitten with astonishment, [Zech 12:4] and horses, asses, mules and camels suffer the plague. [Zech. 14:15] In Psalm 32:9, those who have no understanding are compared to horses.
Ezekiel said they come against the prophets of Israel; [Ez. 38:17] no modern military force would come against the prophets of Israel, (i.e., Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Joel, Zechariah, etc.) but those who misinterpret the prophets may do so. Joel said, "The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining." [Joel 2:10] In the New Testament, the sun represents the Gospel. [Matt. 13:43; Rev. 12:1] The sun becoming dark pictures the Gospel being obscured by false teachings, tares sown by an enemy, including pagan ideas about the immortality of the soul, and the unending infernal torment of unbelievers introduced in the early centuries of the church. [Origen, Tertullian, Augustine are examples.]
Doug
I'm enjoying your posts Doug :thumbsup:
Are we talking about the same armies Doug? I was referring to the dry bones, not Gog and Magog
Eze 37:1-11
The Dry Bones Live
The hand of the LORD came upon me and brought me out in the Spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones. (2) Then He caused me to pass by them all around, and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and indeed they were very dry. (3) And He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?"
So I answered, "O Lord GOD, You know."
(4) Again He said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! (5) Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: "Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live. (6) I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the LORD."'"
(7) So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and suddenly a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to bone. (8) Indeed, as I looked, the sinews and the flesh came upon them, and the skin covered them over; but there was no breath in them.
(9) Also He said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live."'" (10) So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.
(11) Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, 'Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!'
Quote from: eaglesway on December 22, 2011, 06:22:43 PM
Are we talking about the same armies Doug? I was referring to the dry bones, not Gog and Magog
Yes, I realize you were referring to the army in Ez. 37, that is revived from the dry bones.
Perhaps the two armies Ezekiel describes, one in ch. 37, and the other in ch. 38-39, are connected, like the wheat and the tares growing together in the same field. One is destroyed by various judgments, and the other one is revived.
In your previous post, you quoted from Joel 2, and that chapter also describes an army. It is called "a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations." [Joel 2:2] In Joel's prophecy, there is only one army, and verse 11 says, "And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great." The army is identified as God's army. After the description given in verses 1-11, the prophet calls for repentance. [Verses 12-20]
In verse 17, the prophet says, "Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them."
And compare Zech. 14:1-2, where the holy city is taken, and half goes into captivity. Many are "captive" to various flawed interpretations, sects, cults, denominations, etc.
I think all these prophecies have to be considered together; they all help us to understand the current condition of the church.
Doug
My reference to Joel was not connected to gog magog or the army of judgment earlier in the chapter(Joel 2:6-11). It was referring to the prophesy of BLESSING (Joel 2:21-32) and Lord's promise to POUR OUT OF HIS SPIRIT ON ALL FLESH. I was connecting this to connected to Ezekiel PROPHESYING TO THE WIND for the resurrection of the dried out people of God(relevant to TODAY).
I could have made it easier by including the quote I was really responding to with a big amen, which was Cardinal's "Does everyone realize the we're spiritual Israel"
Context is everything!
Peace.... Out..... :o)
Doug origen, supports apokastatias, the salvation of all. None challenged him on this teaching, but his other teachings were challenged.
Quote from: eaglesway on December 22, 2011, 08:49:49 PM
My reference to Joel was not connected to gog magog or the army of judgment earlier in the chapter(Joel 2:6-11). It was referring to the prophesy of BLESSING (Joel 2:21-32) and Lord's promise to POUR OUT OF HIS SPIRIT ON ALL FLESH. I was connecting this to connected to Ezekiel PROPHESYING TO THE WIND for the resurrection of the dried out people of God(relevant to TODAY).
I could have made it easier by including the quote I was really responding to with a big amen, which was Cardinal's "Does everyone realize the we're spiritual Israel"
Context is everything!
Peace.... Out..... :o)
Okay, I have deleted the quoted paragraphs from my post.
:Sparkletooth:
Doug
Quote from: thinktank on December 22, 2011, 08:56:29 PM
Doug origen, supports apokastatias, the salvation of all. None challenged him on this teaching, but his other teachings were challenged.
He was a Platonist who merged Plato's doctrine of the immortality of the soul with New Testament teachings, which later on opened the door for the idea of unending infernal torment of unbelievers.
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen) says:
Origen's cosmology is complicated and controverted, but he seems to have held to a hypothesis of the preexistence of souls, before the world we know was created by God, God created a great number of spiritual intelligences. At first devoted to the contemplation and love of their creator, almost all of these intelligences eventually grew bored of contemplating God, their love for him cooling off. Those whose love for God diminished the most became demons. Those whose love diminished moderately became human souls, eventually to be incarnated in fleshly bodies. Those whose love diminished the least became angels. One, however, who remained perfectly devoted to God became, through love, one with the Word (Logos) of God. The Logos eventually took flesh and was born of the Virgin Mary, becoming the God-man Jesus Christ. The diverse conditions in which human beings are born is actually dependent upon what their souls did in this pre-existent state. Thus what seems unfair, some being born poor and others wealthy, some sick and others healthy, and so forth, is, Origen insists, actually in a by-product of the free-will of souls. Thus, material creation is at least implicitly of a lesser ontological category than the immaterial, or spiritual, and the heavy material bodies that man assumes after the fall will eventually be cast off. Origen, however, still insisted on a bodily resurrection, but in contrast to Athenagoras, who believed that earthly bodies would be precisely reconstituted in the hereafter, Origen argued that Paul's notion of a flourishing spiritual body is more appropriate.
Doug
Quote from: Doug on December 22, 2011, 10:14:38 PM
Quote from: thinktank on December 22, 2011, 08:56:29 PM
Doug origen, supports apokastatias, the salvation of all. None challenged him on this teaching, but his other teachings were challenged.
He was a Platonist who merged Plato's doctrine of the immortality of the soul with New Testament teachings, which later on opened the door for the idea of unending infernal torment of unbelievers.
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen) says:
Origen's cosmology is complicated and controverted, but he seems to have held to a hypothesis of the preexistence of souls, before the world we know was created by God, God created a great number of spiritual intelligences. At first devoted to the contemplation and love of their creator, almost all of these intelligences eventually grew bored of contemplating God, their love for him cooling off. Those whose love for God diminished the most became demons. Those whose love diminished moderately became human souls, eventually to be incarnated in fleshly bodies. Those whose love diminished the least became angels. One, however, who remained perfectly devoted to God became, through love, one with the Word (Logos) of God. The Logos eventually took flesh and was born of the Virgin Mary, becoming the God-man Jesus Christ. The diverse conditions in which human beings are born is actually dependent upon what their souls did in this pre-existent state. Thus what seems unfair, some being born poor and others wealthy, some sick and others healthy, and so forth, is, Origen insists, actually in a by-product of the free-will of souls. Thus, material creation is at least implicitly of a lesser ontological category than the immaterial, or spiritual, and the heavy material bodies that man assumes after the fall will eventually be cast off. Origen, however, still insisted on a bodily resurrection, but in contrast to Athenagoras, who believed that earthly bodies would be precisely reconstituted in the hereafter, Origen argued that Paul's notion of a flourishing spiritual body is more appropriate.
Doug
I agree with most of what he said
Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
But not the logos part, that is new to me.
William Milligan D. D., (1821-1892) was Professor of Divinity and Biblical Criticism, University of Aberdeen, Scotland. In his comments on Revelation 20, Milligan pointed out that there are striking parallels between the prophecies in chapters 20 and 12 of Revelation. He wrote:
The whole picture of the thousand years thus presented to us is, in all its main features, in the binding of Satan, in the security and blessedness of the saints, and in the loosing of Satan for the war, a striking parallel to the scenes in chap. xii. of this book. There Michael and his angels contend with the devil and his angels, and the latter prevailed not (comp. the very remarkable parallel in John i. 5, "and the darkness overcame it not"), but were cast out of heaven into the earth, so that the inhabitants of heaven are for ever safe from them. There the child who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, and from the thought of whom it is impossible to separate the thought of those who are one with Him, is caught up unto God and unto His throne. Finally there also the dragon, though unable really to hurt the saints, "the rest of the woman's seed which keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus," makes war upon them, but without result. This picture in chap. xx. is a repetition, but at the same time a fuller development, of that in chap. xii.; and when we call to mind the peculiarities of apocalyptic structure formerly spoken of, we seem in this fact alone to have no small evidence of the correctness of the interpretation now proposed.
The chapter in which Milligan discussed Revelation 20 can be seen here (http://wp.me/p1iV8y-VK).
In the table below, points of comparison between Revelation 12 and chapters 19 & 20 are listed.
Revelation 12
| | Revelation 19-20
|
the woman is clothed with the sun [Rev. 12:1] | | the woman is clothed in fine linen, clean and white [Rev. 19:8]
|
Jesus rules all nations with a rod of iron [Rev. 12:5] | | Jesus rules the nations with a rod of iron [Rev. 19:15] |
Satan and his angels battle against Michael and his angels [Rev. 12:7] | | Satan is bound for a thousand years [Rev. 20:2]
|
Satan deceives the whole world [Rev. 12:9] | | Satan deceives the nations in the four quarters of the earth [Rev. 20:8]
|
the saints overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb [Rev. 12:11] | | the saints who are beheaded reign with Christ for a thousand years [Rev. 20:6]
|
Satan has but a short time [Rev. 12:12] | | Satan is loosed for a little season [Rev. 20:3]
|
the woman is threatened by a flood from the mouth of the serpent [Rev. 12:15] | | the beloved city is threatened by the armies of Gog and Magog [Rev. 20:9]
|
the earth helps the woman, and swallows up the serpent's flood [Rev. 12:16] | | fowls devour the flesh of slain enemies; [Rev. 19:21] fire from heaven devours the armies of Gog and Magog [Rev. 20:9]
|
the dragon is wroth with the woman, and makes war with the remnant of her seed, those who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. [Rev. 12:17] | | the devil is cast into the lake of fire and brimstone [Rev. 20:10]
|
Doug
What does this mean?
15The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
16Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
--Eze 37
Who is Judah? Who is Joseph [Ephraim]? When were they divided into two kingdoms?
Is this an end time prophecy?
Is it related to this scrpture?
John 6:25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
A prophecy in Amos:
11In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
--Amos 9
Amos is making this prophecy at a time when the northern kingdom has been taken into captivity in Assyria. Amos is talking to the little kingdom of Judah which still remains in the land [to be removed itself to Babylon and then returned] and he is telling them that sometime in the future, God will raise up the tabernacle of David.
Now to the New Testament: Acts 15
The words of Peter:
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith
These are the words of James:
15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Acts 15
This is saying that this bringing in of the Gentiles is the fulfillment of the Amos prophecy, and that the Gentiles that Jesus is bringing in, joined to the Messianic Jews, represents the rebuilding of the tabernacle of David.
What is the tabernacle of David? It is the three-sided tent which contains the ark of the Covenant on display for all the world to see.
The twelve tribes of Israel re-united under Christ represent the tabernacle of David.
Quote from: Molly on December 27, 2011, 09:34:21 AM
What does this mean?
15The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
16Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
--Eze 37
Who is Judah? Who is Joseph [Ephraim]? When were they divided into two kingdoms?
In the reigns of David and Solomon the 12 tribes were united under one kingdom but that unity ended after Solomon and the northern 10 tribes revolted from the house of David under Jeroboam son of Nebat, an Ephraimite.
The later biblical history includes accounts of the reigns of the kings of both Israel and of Judah which remained loyal to the house of David.
When Ezekiel wrote his prophecy the people of both kingdoms had been removed from the land of promise. They lived in what is now Iraq, and in various other countries.
In his prophecy, Ezekiel showed the whole house of Israel would be gathered from among the heathen, and they would return to the land promised to their forefathers, and would be reunited under David, (who represents Christ, as Christ has inherited David's throne).
Quote from: Molly on December 27, 2011, 09:34:21 AM
Is this an end time prophecy?
The meaning of all this is discussed by Patrick Fairbairn, in "Ezekiel and the book of his prophecy: an exposition (http://books.google.ca/books?jtp=408&id=b6hAAAAAIAAJ)" [T. & T. Clark, 1855] pp. 408-412.
Fairbairn stated:
The whole people of Israel had been represented as participating in the regenerating efficacy of the spirit of life, which was to be given from above: and, as the direct result of this was to unite them to God, so its secondary operation could not fail to be, to unite them in brotherly concord with each other. For the true covenant-people must form but one body, as they can only have one Head; and hence, as the necessary shell for preserving this great truth, it was so strictly enjoined of old, that they should have but one temple, one high-priest, one king, and one commonwealth. In the Church, believers are brought into the commonwealth of Israel by faith in Christ, who is both our King and our high priest. Paul said in Eph. 2:11-16:
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
The barrier in the temple that separated Jews and Gentiles is broken down; believers of all ethnic background are under one Head, who is Jesus, and are brought into one "commonwealth."
The promises to Joseph, and to Judah, (eternal throne) and to Levi, (perpetual priesthood) and all the other promises of God apply to Jesus and to those who are in Christ, the Church. Paul said, "For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us." [ 2 Corinthians 1:20]
What about the promise of restoration to the land? The Old Covenant promise of the land is a
shadow and
type of spiritual, eternal things, as Jacob alluded to when he said, while blessing Joseph, "The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren." [Genesis 49:26] The high mountains suggest these blessings are
high, and
lofty, and of a spiritual nature. In Isaiah, God said, "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." [Isaiah 55:9] And Jacob refers to the hills as "everlasting," which points us to the eternal duration of the promises, that the mountains of Israel represent. This is why, I believe, Ezekiel said, "I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel;" [Ez. 37:22] the mountains of Israel are symbolic of the
promises of Israel, the spiritual things promised to the saints. This is the "better country" mentioned in Hebrews 11:16. This includes the spiritual truths that are revealed in the Scriptures; whereas other lands represent the
false beliefs of other people. Being removed from the land of promise represents the people being removed from the true faith, and instead dwelling in the darkness, superstition, and ignorance of the pagan nations who did not know God. There is a parallel to Adam and Eve being expelled from Eden. They were denied access to the
tree of life. Restoration to the promised land represents returning to the
truth and a right understanding of the Gospel, as understanding the truth is one of the things Jesus promised his disciples.
John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Quote from: Molly on December 27, 2011, 09:34:21 AM
Is it related to this scrpture?
John 6:25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
Certainly. The "dead" includes those who are spiritually dead.
Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Ephesians 2:5-6
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
The "heavenly places" corresponds to the "better country" of Hebrews 11:16.
Doug
Great posts Doug.
An interesting side note. When Jeroboam was made king of the ten tribes, it was by a prophetic utterance. God offered him a throne like unto David's in perpetuity(1 Kings 11:31). Jeroboam, however, when he became king, feared that if he allowed Israel to go up to Jerusalem to worship, they would go back under Rehobam, son of Solomon(another wicked king). In order to thwart this possibility(instead of trusting the promise and purpose of God), he forbade the Israelites to worship with their brothers in Jerusalem upon Zion. He set up a temple in Samaria. He set up two 'golden calvels", one each in Dan and Beersheba(northern and southern gates of Israel) and said,"These are your god's Oh Israel!" This was the source of the Samaritan religion, of which Jesus spoke, to the Samaritan woman, "You Samaritan's do no know what you worship"'(and the reason why the parable of the "good Samaritan" was such an insult to the Pharisees).
The Levites reacted so he drove them out of the land, set up a new priesthood, set up a new religion "and sought to change the days and the times (feasts and festivals new moons and sabbaths)". This is, spiritually speaking, what denominationalism and sectarianism is doing today "sinning after the sins of Jerobaom" who became a by-word and standard of iniquity refferred to by the prophets through out the rest of Israel's history(1 Kings 12:26-32).
It is also prototypical of the spirit of anti-Christ, "setting himself in the temple" to commit an "abomination of desolation"(1 Kings 13:34).
The worship and sacrifice of calves, and the making of "golden calves" hearkened back also to Cain and Abel. The calves symbolizing wealth and production, the lamb symbolizing sacrificial love- as the foundations of community. They worshipped the works of their own hands, their credo being, "Am I my brother's keeper?"
Sort of like the church buildings and organizations today that serve as monuments to man, rather than offerings to God.
Quote from: eaglesway on December 27, 2011, 07:18:57 PM
Great posts Doug.
An interesting side note. When Jeroboam was made king of the ten tribes, it was by a prophetic utterance. God offered him a throne like unto David's in perpetuity(1 Kings 11:31). Jeroboam, however, when he became king, feared that if he allowed Israel to go up to Jerusalem to worship, they would go back under Rehobam, son of Solomon(another wicked king). In order to thwart this possibility(instead of trusting the promise and purpose of God), he forbade the Israelites to worship with their brothers in Jerusalem upon Zion. He set up a temple in Samaria. He set up two 'golden calvels", one each in Dan and Beersheba(northern and southern gates of Israel) and said,"These are your god's Oh Israel!" This was the source of the Samaritan religion, of which Jesus spoke, to the Samaritan woman, "You Samaritan's do no know what you worship"'(and the reason why the parable of the "good Samaritan" was such an insult to the Pharisees).
The Levites reacted so he drove them out of the land, set up a new priesthood, set up a new religion "and sought to change the days and the times (feasts and festivals new moons and sabbaths)". This is, spiritually speaking, what denominationalism and sectarianism is doing today "sinning after the sins of Jerobaom" who became a by-word and standard of iniquity refferred to by the prophets through out the rest of Israel's history(1 Kings 12:26-32).
It is also prototypical of the spirit of anti-Christ, "setting himself in the temple" to commit an "abomination of desolation"(1 Kings 13:34).
The worship and sacrifice of calves, and the making of "golden calves" hearkened back also to Cain and Abel. The calves symbolizing wealth and production, the lamb symbolizing sacrificial love- as the foundations of community. They worshipped the works of their own hands, their credo being, "Am I my brother's keeper?"
Sort of like the church buildings and organizations today that serve as monuments to man, rather than offerings to God.
those calves likely represented the cherubim or were cherubim. God who sits enthroned between the cherubim, he may have been trying to say that between those cherubim is where god dwells.
I don't think what I said changes anything you just wrote, especially since the word cherub may come from to plow. the root KRB in aramaic is plow, thus calves (this is the best explanation I've read to the origin of the word cherub).
The Israelites said the same thing these are your gods that brought you up from Egypt, when they fashioned the golden calf in the wilderness. They may have seen the cherubim in the cloud leading them out of egypt (as seen in Ezekiels vision)
I agree especially about the spirit of anti-christ setting himself in the temple, as I see the cherubim representing our flesh, they are called beasts in Revelation, to take the mark of the beast is to basically worship your self/flesh
Quote from: DougWhen Ezekiel wrote his prophecy the people of both kingdoms had been removed from the land of promise. They lived in what is now Iraq, and in various other countries.
In his prophecy, Ezekiel showed the whole house of Israel would be gathered from among the heathen, and they would return to the land promised to their forefathers, and would be reunited under David, (who represents Christ, as Christ has inherited David's throne).
Around 800 bc the northern 10 tribes, the kingdom of Israel, were taken into captivity to Assyria. They never returned.
Then around 600 bc the southern kingdom of Judah was taken into Babylon. They did return around 100 years later and rebuilt the temple. If they had not returned, we would have no OT Bible.
But, meanwhile, the northern tribes, house of Israel, have become Gentiles over the 900 years or so before Christ walks on the earth.
So you are saying [confirming] that Ezekiel says the house of Israel [Joseph/Ephraim] will be gathered from the heathen and joined to the house of Judah, --two sticks which shall be joined and held as one stick in his hand. In other words, the lost northern kingdom shall be found and joined to the southern kingdom of Judah.
That makes Eze 37 a double prophecy because this began with the cross--The joining of the two [Jew and Gentile] into one new man--and will end with the resurrection and the manifestation of the sons of God. Yes?
In other words, the Gentile Christians are the stick of Joseph [Ephraim], the lost northern ten tribes--they would have to be to fulfill this prophecy.
To aleax: I read the Dora Van Assen text and very much enjoyed it. J. Preston Eby has a similar argument on God's law of circularity. This idea of our timeless God working through various ages bears witness with me and brings peace. The only thing I dislike is the statement that God matures us through suffering. This makes me a bit afraid of Him. Does a God of love have no other means to teach us? I would think love a better motivator.
Quote from: redhotmagma on December 27, 2011, 07:40:23 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on December 27, 2011, 07:18:57 PM
Great posts Doug.
An interesting side note. When Jeroboam was made king of the ten tribes, it was by a prophetic utterance. God offered him a throne like unto David's in perpetuity(1 Kings 11:31). Jeroboam, however, when he became king, feared that if he allowed Israel to go up to Jerusalem to worship, they would go back under Rehobam, son of Solomon(another wicked king). In order to thwart this possibility(instead of trusting the promise and purpose of God), he forbade the Israelites to worship with their brothers in Jerusalem upon Zion. He set up a temple in Samaria. He set up two 'golden calvels", one each in Dan and Beersheba(northern and southern gates of Israel) and said,"These are your god's Oh Israel!" This was the source of the Samaritan religion, of which Jesus spoke, to the Samaritan woman, "You Samaritan's do no know what you worship"'(and the reason why the parable of the "good Samaritan" was such an insult to the Pharisees).
The Levites reacted so he drove them out of the land, set up a new priesthood, set up a new religion "and sought to change the days and the times (feasts and festivals new moons and sabbaths)". This is, spiritually speaking, what denominationalism and sectarianism is doing today "sinning after the sins of Jerobaom" who became a by-word and standard of iniquity refferred to by the prophets through out the rest of Israel's history(1 Kings 12:26-32).
It is also prototypical of the spirit of anti-Christ, "setting himself in the temple" to commit an "abomination of desolation"(1 Kings 13:34).
The worship and sacrifice of calves, and the making of "golden calves" hearkened back also to Cain and Abel. The calves symbolizing wealth and production, the lamb symbolizing sacrificial love- as the foundations of community. They worshipped the works of their own hands, their credo being, "Am I my brother's keeper?"
Sort of like the church buildings and organizations today that serve as monuments to man, rather than offerings to God.
those calves likely represented the cherubim or were cherubim. God who sits enthroned between the cherubim, he may have been trying to say that between those cherubim is where god dwells.
I don't think what I said changes anything you just wrote, especially since the word cherub may come from to plow. the root KRB in aramaic is plow, thus calves (this is the best explanation I've read to the origin of the word cherub).
The Israelites said the same thing these are your gods that brought you up from Egypt, when they fashioned the golden calf in the wilderness. They may have seen the cherubim in the cloud leading them out of egypt (as seen in Ezekiels vision)
I agree especially about the spirit of anti-christ setting himself in the temple, as I see the cherubim representing our flesh, they are called beasts in Revelation, to take the mark of the beast is to basically worship your self/flesh
Thats pretty interesting. In the light of the "You were the anointed cherub" prophesy, whether on sees that as Adam or Lucifer or "self"- actually all apply, wheels within wheels y'know ;o)
Setting up an image of that which is real, in order to replace the real with an image that becomes an icon filled with the abominations of men while "outwardly" having an "appearance" of godliness- all in tune with an idolatrous generation having a form of godliness but denying the power of it- which is to transform into the image of the son of God.... "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters"
Also goes to why Elijah chose bulls for the sacrifice in the face off with the priests of Baal, since they were full of bull, teaching a lot of bull, and the god of bull should have answered them by fire , but didn't. :laughing7:
Quote from: Molly on December 27, 2011, 08:43:21 PM
Quote from: DougWhen Ezekiel wrote his prophecy the people of both kingdoms had been removed from the land of promise. They lived in what is now Iraq, and in various other countries.
In his prophecy, Ezekiel showed the whole house of Israel would be gathered from among the heathen, and they would return to the land promised to their forefathers, and would be reunited under David, (who represents Christ, as Christ has inherited David's throne).
Around 800 bc the northern 10 tribes, the kingdom of Israel, were taken into captivity to Assyria. They never returned.
Then around 600 bc the southern kingdom of Judah was taken into Babylon. They did return around 100 years later and rebuilt the temple. If they had not returned, we would have no OT Bible.
But, meanwhile, the northern tribes, house of Israel, have become Gentiles over the 900 years or so before Christ walks on the earth.
So you are saying [confirming] that Ezekiel says the house of Israel [Joseph/Ephraim] will be gathered from the heathen and joined to the house of Judah, --two sticks which shall be joined and held as one stick in his hand. In other words, the lost northern kingdom shall be found and joined to the southern kingdom of Judah.
That makes Eze 37 a double prophecy because this began with the cross--The joining of the two [Jew and Gentile] into one new man--and will end with the resurrection and the manifestation of the sons of God. Yes?
In other words, the Gentile Christians are the stick of Joseph [Ephraim], the lost northern ten tribes--they would have to be to fulfill this prophecy.
IMO, it is likely that some members of the ten tribes were dispersed among the nations, and have been "lost," but some Israelites must have returned with the Jews, after their captivity in Babylon, because in the New Testament we read of the lineage of several people of various tribes. Luke says, "THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth." [Luke 1:5] The priests were Levites. Luke also mentioned the prophetess Anna, "And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity." [Luke 2:36] Joseph and Mary, of course were of the tribe of Judah and they were descendants of David. Paul was a Benjamite. But the significance of Ezekiel's prophecy about joining the two sticks of Ephraim and Judah has to do with the ultimate application of the prophecies and promises to Israel and Judah; promises given to Israel apply to the church, and the church is represented by both Israel and Judah, and also by Jerusalem, and the temple. All the promises of God are inherited by Christ.
Ezekiel's prophecy in chapter 37, about the two sticks that are joined to become one stick, is rather profound, and has given many scholars trouble. An illustration of this is the experience of Patrick Fairbairn, who I cited in my previous post. He wrote on Ezekiel 37 in 1840, and then again about ten years later, but in the intervening period, he seems to have had a complete change of heart about what the prophecy meant. In his earlier exposition, he quoted Scott, who said that it is "impossible to interpret the language of the prophet of any events, which took place before the coming of Christ, and yet it seems plainly to mean that the Jews should dwell in Canaan under the rule of Christ, from the time intended, through all generations to the end of the world." Fairbairn commented: [1] "They are not merely to be united, according to the prediction, under one head, and incorporated into the same body—which might possibly have been understood of their conversion to the faith of Christ—but in this incorporated state it is expressly declared, that they shall form one nation—shall exist as such upon the mountains of Israel—shall inherit the very land in which their fathers have dwelt, and which had been given in covenant to Jacob. Indeed the terms of that covenant alone might teach us the necessity of the restoration of the Jews, without any such fresh and explicit assurances as those we have been considering; for Canaan was to be given to the seed of Abraham by the line of Jacob, 'for an everlasting possession.' Gen. xvii. 1 8." He thus early in career supported the idea of an earthly "millennium" where Jews are restored to the literal land of Canaan and are doted on by Gentiles in much the same way as so called Christian Zionists and dispensationalist preachers imagine today. But as noted above, Fairbairn had a change of mind, and a kind of
conversion, and he became
enlightened. He abandoned his previous interpretation. Instead, he realized that the "David" mentioned in Ezekiel 37:24 is a reference to Christ, the
son of David who has inherited the
throne of David, which is a heavenly throne that endures forever. The kingdom where he reigns is heavenly, and the saints reign with him. Below is his later, more mature exposition of the same prophecy. [2]
There is nothing absolutely new in the prophecy; it is substantially a fresh exhibition of the prospect already unfolded in chaps, xxxiv. and xxxvi.; but rendering prominent what was there implied rather than broadly asserted, the formal union of the covenant-people, along with their sanctification and blessedness, under the presidency of David. That there has been no adequate fulfilment of the prophecy in what may be called the literal sense of its terms, is too plain to require any lengthened proof. Some advances were of old made towards it,—that is all that can be said. There was a return, to some extent, of the covenant-people, chiefly indeed of the house of Judah, though not without representatives from the other tribes; a visible display of union among such as did return, a partial repossession of the land of the covenant, and an external reconstruction of the temple and its worship—enough to show that God had not forgotten his word, and that he was ready to bless to the full, if his people had been willing to seek to him for the blessing. But still all, not excepting even the things connected with the temple (see on chap. xxi. 26), were found in a very imperfect and mutilated condition, not after the bright pattern furnished here by the hand of the prophet. And the most characteristic part of the description—the cementing, strengthening, benignant rule of David—had not even the appearance of a literal fulfilment in the post-Babylonish history of Israel. The prophecy, therefore, has not been accomplished according to the letter in the past; and, with so strong and prominent a feature of an ideal sort as the eternal presidency of David, it seems amazing that any one should expect it to be realised after that manner in the ages to come. For to that end it were indispensable that the literal David should be raised from the dead, and again set over the heritage of God, vested there even with perpetual sovereignty; notwithstanding that Christ has expressly received, by Divine appointment, the throne of his father David. The prophecy is a detailed picture of coming good, drawn, as such a picture must have been, under the form of the old covenant relations. It exhibits the prospective good, as a revival of Israel's best periods, freed from their still remaining defects and oft-intermingling judgments; and a picture that could be realised only in part, while the old covenant stood, both from its own inherent imperfections, and from the wilful neglect and obstinacy of its people. Not till the new covenant enters does the comparatively perfect begin to develop itself. For with the coming of Messiah, the head and centre of the new, as David was of the old, everything connected with God's kingdom takes a loftier flight and a wider range; the shadows vanish away, being supplanted by the substance; and that which before was partial and restricted, presents now the aspect of an expansive freedom and a universal adaptation. The whole earth is as much Christ's rightful heritage as the territory and people of Canaan were David's; and only when it becomes his actual possession, can the prophecy respecting him, as the New Testament David, reach its destined accomplishment. So that to speak now of the prophecy still requiring for its fulfilment a literal Israel, a literal Canaan, a literal tabernacle, with the many outward and fleshly conditions therewith connected, and that too in the face of the palpable incongruity in the heart of the prophecy of a non-literal David, is as if one were to reduce the lofty tree again to the puny dimensions of the plant, or send the man of full-grown stature back to his cradle,—as if, in short, against all the experience of the past, which is ever moving on to something higher and better, we should expect the chariot-wheels of God's providence to return to their former courses, and keep within the ancient landmarks.
It was the peerless glory of Israel as a nation, to give to the world the new David, who was to be for humanity the one child of hope, and to furnish to his hand the first builders of that spiritual house, which was to be formed of renewed souls, and reared on the foundation of his perfected redemption. But there their distinctive honour ceases—not as if their real privileges and blessings were lost, but because these must henceforth be shared in common by the household of faith. The very mother that bore Jesus, and his nearest kindred, could attain to no peculiar place in his kingdom by reason of their earthly connection with him: not these, he said, but every one that heareth the word, and doeth the will of my Father in heaven, is my mother and sister and brother. Thus the fleshly bond was broken at the centre, and it must vanish to the farthest circumference; everything founded on natural relationships and genealogical descent was, with the handwriting of ordinances, nailed to the cross of Christ, and buried in his grave, as a part of that bondage to the elements of the world, from which the church had at length escaped, and which should never more be heard of in her borders. The one relationship to be accounted of is union to Christ, which renders all who possess it children of Abraham, and heirs according to the promise—heirs, that is, of all that was given to Abraham in promise; more even, if more could be, for they are heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ himself. Therefore, it is folly to speak of robbing the Jew by putting him on a level with the believer in Christ; for to put him there is to raise him to the highest standing that a child of humanity can enjoy, and give him a share in that, which being large enough for all, is not diminished, but rather enhanced by the numbers who partake in it. And for the church herself, seeing that her exulted Head is now at the right hand of the Majesty on high, with power and authority to make the whole earth his possession, instead of seeking to revive the old distinctions, which have served their day, or hanging her hopes on effete outward arrangements, it is alike her wisdom and her duty to press forward the spiritual conquest of the world,—plying with unwearied diligence the means of its regeneration, and withal waiting and praying for the time when, nature itself being regenerated, the earth shall become the fit abode of manifested Deity, and all shall be full of the knowledge, and resplendent with the glory of the Lord. Then in the fullest sense shall the vision of our prophet be realised; for then the entire territory of the new covenant shall be reclaimed for righteousness, and the tabernacle of the Lord most truly be with men.
In closing this section, we present a brief outline of the view that has been taken of the prophecies contained in the three closely related chapters, xxxiv., xxxvi., xxxvii.; and which in substance applies equally to many other portions of the prophetical Scriptures.
1. They were originally given to revive and animate the hearts of God's covenant-people, by holding out to them the assured prospect of a reversion from the present evil, and their still certain destination in God's purpose to the highest and most honourable place on the earth.
2. It was the duty of those to whom such prophecies were delivered, at once to believe the word spoken to them, and apply themselves in earnest to do what was needed to secure its accomplishment; and had they only done this, a far larger measure of the promised good would have been reaped than they actually experienced; this later prospect of blessing, like the earlier, given before entering Canaan, greatly failed through their own sinful unbelief.
3. But there being manifestly ideal features introduced into the delineation, especially the good spoken of being so peculiarly connected with the rule and presidency of David, clearly betokens a kind and degree of blessing, which could not have been completely fulfilled under the old covenant, nor intended to be altogether fulfilled anytime according to the letter. It shows the prophecies in question to be, like several of an earlier kind in Ezekiel, descriptions of the future under the form and image of the past—not as if the past were actually to return again, but that its general spirit and character were to revive.
4. The new things thus to be looked for in the future, could only meet with their full and adequate accomplishment in Christ, who is certainly the David of the promise. They are consequently of a higher and more comprehensive nature than any that could be enjoyed under the old covenant, when the kingdom of God was so straitened in its dimensions, and so outward and earthly in its visible constitution. But still, they were of necessity described under the hue and aspect of the things belonging to the old covenant —as if it were these only returning again, or these with certain alterations and improvements, such as might give the future a pre-eminence in glory over the past. For, only by means of what belonged to existing or previous dispensations of God, could the prophet have given any detailed exhibition of what might be expected under another and higher dispensation. The details of the future must have been cast into the mould of the present or the past.
5. Therefore, in forming one's conceptions now of the real import of such prophecies—now that the transition has been made into the new and higher dispensation—we must throw ourselves back into the narrower and more imperfect relations, amid which they were' written, and thence judge of what is still to come. Thus, as the David of the promise is Christ, so the covenant-people are no longer the Jews distinctively, but the faithful in Christ; and the territory of blessing no longer Canaan, but the region of which Christ is king and lord. What was spoken immediately of the one class of personages and relations, may most fully be applied to the other; and by such a method of interpretation alone do we get a uniform and consistent principle to carry us through the whole. While those, on the other hand, who would find a literal Israel, and a non-literal David, or a literal restoration in Christian times, and a non-literal tabernacle and ritual of worship, arbitrarily confound together things dissimilar and incongruous, and render certainty of interpretation absolutely impossible.
6. Sixthly, the view thus given is confirmed by the re-production of some of these prophecies in the field of the New Testament Church, set free, as was to be expected, from the outward distinctions and limits of the Old. Thus, in particular, the resurrection-scene of this 37th chapter substantially recurs in the 20th chapter of Rev., and is followed precisely as here by the attack from the embattled forces of Gog and Magog; while not a word is said, which would confine the things spoken to the land of Canaan, or the literal Israel; it is the church and people of Christ at large that are discoursed of. We say nothing respecting the probable time and nature of the events there referred to, but simply point to the identity in character of what is written with the prophecies before us. In those visions of the Apocalypse, the inspired Evangelist stretches out the hand to Ezekiel, and shows how the word spoken so long before by that servant of God, freed from the peculiarities of its Jewish form, is to find its application to the Christian church. The shell has gone, but the substance remains.
7. We may add, lastly, that the common interpretation, which understands Christ by David, and takes all the rest literally, must inevitably tend to justify the Jew in his unbelief. For he naturally says, Your Messiah has not done the thing you yourselves hold must be done, to fulfil the prophecy; he has not set up his throne in Canaan, and gathered Israel there, and re-established the old worship in its purity; this was the very purpose for which he was to appear, and we must wait till he comes to do it. On the basis of the literal interpretation, there seems no satisfactory answer to this; and it is well known, that, since it has become prevalent, many Jews believe that Christians are coming over to their view of the matter. We are not surprised to hear, as we have heard, of converted Jews declaring, that with such a mode of interpretation, they would go back to Judaism.References1. Patrick Fairbairn. The Future Prospects of the Jews—Restoration to their own Land—Universal Conversion to the Faith of Christ. Church of Scotland General Assembly, Committee on the conversion of the Jews.
A course of lectures on the Jews. Presbyterian Board of Publication, 1840. pp. 405-442. (Note on p. 422-423.)
2. Patrick Fairbairn.
Ezekiel and the book of his prophecy: an exposition. T. & T. Clark, 1855. p. 409-414.
Doug
wow Doug, I had trouble reading that long post. If I could just be a little clearer in my stance.
First of all, the kingdom of Judah contained the tribe of Benjamin, because Benjamin always stayed close to Judah after the covenant of Jonathan and David and it remained with Judah as part of the southern kingdom after the split. They also had their portion of Levites, because the Levites were free-floating amongst the tribes.
All the disciples except for Judas came from the tribe of Benjamin.
But, the mention of the other tribes is scant to non existent in the New Testament until the book of Revelation.
Certainly this prophecy refers to Christ, the lion of Judah, sitting on David's throne, which was to stay in the hands of Judah until Shiloh come. Jesus is Shiloh.
The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.--Gen 49:10
So we are talking about the gathering of the people under Shiloh, that is, Christ, and this would not include the non believing Jews.
Jesus himself says,
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Mat 15:24
Who did he end up gathering? The Christians, mostly 'Gentile,' the multitude of nations promised to Abraham and his seed.
The house of Israel is the ten northern tribes, and they are literally lost by the time Jesus arrives on the scene, assimilated by the Gentiles and scattered all over the world. They are the ones who come to be called Joseph, the tribe of Ephraim, and his fellows, the double portioned ones.
Under Christ, the Messiah believing Jews and the other tribes [aka Christians] are the ekklesia, the called out ones, the elect, the inheritor, the children of the promise made to Abraham. They are the tabernacle of David and the New Jerusalem. There is no longer Jew nor Greek, but--and this is my belief--all 12 tribes have been brought together again under Christ.
2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.--Rev 21
Quote from: Molly on December 28, 2011, 02:52:52 AM
Jesus is Shiloh.
That's very interesting.
Jesus is Shiloh.
Psalm 78:60;
He abandoned the tabernacle of Shiloh, the tent he had set up among men.
God left the tabernacle at Shiloh and Jesus filled it again.
Amen!
Quote from: Molly on December 27, 2011, 05:20:20 PM
A prophecy in Amos:
11In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
--Amos 9
Amos is making this prophecy at a time when the northern kingdom has been taken into captivity in Assyria. Amos is talking to the little kingdom of Judah which still remains in the land [to be removed itself to Babylon and then returned] and he is telling them that sometime in the future, God will raise up the tabernacle of David.
Now to the New Testament: Acts 15
The words of Peter:
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith
These are the words of James:
15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Acts 15
This is saying that this bringing in of the Gentiles is the fulfillment of the Amos prophecy, and that the Gentiles that Jesus is bringing in, joined to the Messianic Jews, represents the rebuilding of the tabernacle of David.
What is the tabernacle of David? It is the three-sided tent which contains the ark of the Covenant on display for all the world to see.
The twelve tribes of Israel re-united under Christ represent the tabernacle of David.
The tabernacle of David was Jewish, of the tribe of Judah. Ezekiel's prophecy in ch. 37 where the two sticks were joined identifies all of the tribes of Israel with the tribe of Judah, and Judah with all the other tribes. This is fulfilled in the church. Jesus was a descendant of David, and so those who are in Christ, and who are, as Paul says, "members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones," [Ephesians 5:30] are also of the house of David, or of the tabernacle of David, in a spiritual sense.
The epistle of James is addressed to "the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad." [James 1:1] It is not written to Jews after the flesh, but to Christians. Paul said, "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." [Philippians 3:3] Whatever our race or nationality after the flesh, those who are in Christ are considered the true "circumcision" which identifies them as "Jews" in a spiritual sense. The people Paul wrote this to were actually Greeks.
Jesus is also our high priest, and believers are described as "kings and priests unto God." [Revelation 1:6] This applies to believers of every nation and tribe. But in the Old Covenant, priests had to come from the tribe of Levi. Thus, the tribe of Levi might represent the saints, and this was also indicated by the apostle Peter, when he wrote: "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." [1 Peter 2:9-10] By "royal priesthood" he identified believers with the tribes of Levi and Judah.
So, while the tabernacle of David was Jewish, in a literal sense, and the priests were Levites, the blessings that Jacob inherited were assigned to Joseph. [Genesis 49:26] All of these promises were obtained by Jesus. Paul said, "For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us." [2 Corinthians 1:20]
The church inherits the promises of God to Israel through Christ. There is no inheritance apart from Christ. Peter said, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." [Acts 4:12] Prophecies such as Malachi 3:3 apply to the church, which is represented here as the "sons of Levi," perhaps because under the New Covenant, believers are called
priests. "And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness."
Doug
:cloud9: @ Molly.....spiritually speaking......Tabernacle of David, no inner court because the Holy of Holies has "descended" into the outer court, a sort of "overlapping" and therefore a fulfilling of the feasts we talked about in another thread somewhere on here. It's man having both the Son (inner court) AND the Father (Holy of Holies), manifested, ie. manifested sons of God. Even in the natural a man who rises to his feet, the head "covers" the feet, sort of an "overlapping".
Spiritually speaking also, Jesus was/is the Tabernacle of David, and since the Father chooses to bring MANY SONS unto glory, so shall it be. The priests portion was God Himself. Blessings....
:cloud9: Like your posts, Doug.... :thumbsup:
Quote from: DougSo, while the tabernacle of David was Jewish, in a literal sense, and the priests were Levites, the blessings that Jacob inherited were assigned to Joseph. [Genesis 49:26] All of these promises were obtained by Jesus. Paul said, "For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us." [2 Corinthians 1:20]
The tabernacle of David is a tent erected by David to house the ark. David was the tribe of Judah, the tribe of kings not priests, yet he wore the ephod of
the high priest when he returned the [stolen] ark to Jerusalem, and set it in the three sided tent, and danced in front of it. Therefore, David typified the king and priest combination, a type of Christ, and the Melchizedek priesthood.
From the time of the everlasting covenant to Abraham, this has always been a story of one group of people who became the 12 tribes of Israel--
and in you, all the nations of the earth will be blessed. They are not Jews, they are Hebrews, the crossed over ones.
God puts a god over each of the nations of the world, but he keeps Israel for himself, for his own inheritance, and he says to them, "I will make you a kingdom of priests."
Exodus 19:6
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
How does that work out in the Old Testament? There is no kingdom of priests. Only the Levites are priests, and most of them fall into apostasy. In fact, the 12 tribes themselves fall into apostasy and are divorced by God. The ten northern tribes are scattered to the ends of the earth. At the end of the Old Testament, things are looking pretty desperate, yet there are prophecies which give hope, which show God has not forgotten his promise to them.
It is in the New Testament that we see the continuation and resolution of this story. Yes, it is spiritual, but it is also literal, this is what I believe. He gathers them all back together in Christ! These are the remnant of the twelve tribes of Israel. And, he makes them a nation of priests, a holy nation, based not on a bloodline but on the basis of an indestructible life--the Melchizedek priesthood,-- and God himself is the inheritance of the priests.
Numbers 18:20
And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them:
I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel.
"When the Hebrews came to the outskirts of Canaan, the land that had been promised to them by God, after having fled slavery in Egypt, Moses (the Hebrew leader) sent twelve spies (Hebrew: מרגלים, meraglim) into Canaan to report on what was there—one spy representing each of the Twelve Tribes. Ten of the spies returned to say that the land would be impossible to claim, and that giants lived there who would crush the Hebrew army. Only two, Joshua (from the tribe of Ephraim) and Caleb (representing Judah), returned and said that God would be able to deliver Canaan into the hands of the Hebrew nation."
--Wiki
The two that give the good report and end up leading the remnant of the children of Israel into the promised land--Ephraim and Judah-Joshua and Caleb--two witnesses.
Two churches--two witnesses=the overcomers:
8And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. [Rev 2]
7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
[Rev 3]
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2011, 12:47:33 PM
Quote from: DougSo, while the tabernacle of David was Jewish, in a literal sense, and the priests were Levites, the blessings that Jacob inherited were assigned to Joseph. [Genesis 49:26] All of these promises were obtained by Jesus. Paul said, "For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us." [2 Corinthians 1:20]
The tabernacle of David is a tent erected by David to house the ark. David was the tribe of Judah, the tribe of kings not priests, yet he wore the ephod of
the high priest when he returned the [stolen] ark to Jerusalem, and set it in the three sided tent, and danced in front of it. Therefore, David typified the king and priest combination, a type of Christ, and the Melchizedek priesthood.
David erected a tent for the ark in Jerusalem, which was probably similar to the design of the Mosaic tabernacle, except that there was only one room in it, the part corresponding to the holy of holies of the Mosaic tabernacle.
The shape of the holy of holies in the Mosaic tabernacle was a cube, and it seems likely that this was also the shape of the tent David erected to house the ark. This tabernacle is mentioned in 2 Samuel 6:1-23; 7:2; 1 Chronicles 13:1-14; 15:1-16:43. When David determined to build a more permanent house or a temple for the worship of God, and to house the ark, God sent his word to Nathan the prophet:
2 Samuel 7
4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying,
5 Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in?
6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle.
7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar?
8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:
9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.
10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,
11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
According to this, the house of David and his kingdom were to be established forever. And so, while the "tabernacle of David" was a tent during his lifetime, David's
house or
tabernacle is to continue forever, and in the New Testament, it is identified with the church. [Acts 15:16] Jesus possesses the "key of David," and so in reality, the "house of David" consists of the followers of Christ, and it is a "spiritual house."
1 Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a
spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
It is a house built by God. This is the promise made to David; the church is the fulfillment of it.
Doug
Quote from: DougAccording to this, the house of David and his kingdom were to be established forever. And so, while the "tabernacle of David" was a tent during his lifetime, David's house or tabernacle is to continue forever, and in the New Testament, it is identified with the church. [Acts 15:16] Jesus possesses the "key of David," and so in reality, the "house of David" consists of the followers of Christ, and it is a "spiritual house."
Yes, the church is the fulfillment of the tabernacle of David. The church includes the Messianic Jews and the Gentiles [the wild olive tree] who are brought in--both under Christ.
15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: [Acts 15]
And, who is the church The church is the fulfillment of this prophecy:
19Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. [Eze 37]
It is the gathering of the remnant of the twelve tribes of Israel under Christ, the rebuilding of the tabernacle of David.
And the whole building is constructed by him and grows into a holy temple in THE LORD JEHOVAH, [Eph 2:21]
As Cardinal says, Jesus is the tabernacle of David, and so shall his brothers be, the manifested sons of God, the doors of the tent open to the holy of holies, so that the whole world will see,
Whoever has seen me has seen the Father! [Jn 14:9]
Amos 9:9 For I will give commandment, and sift the house of Israel among all the Gentiles, as corn is sifted in a sieve, and yet a fragment shall not in any wise fall upon the earth... 11 In that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and will rebuild the ruins of it, and will set up the parts thereof that have been broken down, and will build it up as in the ancient days: 12 that the remnant of men, and all the Gentiles upon whom my name is called, may earnestly seek me, saith the Lord who does all these things.
:cloud9: Good posts.....lots of life coming forth. :thumbsup: Amen.
The Tabernacle of David is the house of David, and Christ the Seed that is Spirit has the key of David, and He can give it to whomever He will. The word key in Hebrew runs into a meaning of "to open, to loose oneself, be engraved, carved".
Isaiah 22:22 KJV And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open .
Revelation 3:7 KJV And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
The key is placed upon the shoulder, the shoulder of the High Priest. The authority rests upon the shoulder, and the engraved onyx stones with the names/natures of the twelve tribes was what was upon his shoulders. They are there as a burden, as a shepherd throws the one lost sheep upon his shoulder, ie. no greater love has any man than this.
The key is His love, and He uses it take them into the presence of the Father, and "read" what has been written (engraved) upon the hearts. Without THIS vision, the people perish, because it details what their purpose in Him is. The porters (literally gate openers) were placed at the four directions around the Father's heart/Holy of Holies by David, and given charge of the contents.
1Chronicles 9:22 All these which were chosen to be porters in the gates were two hundred and twelve*. These were reckoned by their genealogy in their villages, whom David and Samuel the seer did ordain in their set office. 23 So they and their children had the oversight of the gates of the house of the LORD, namely, the house of the tabernacle, by wards. 24 In four quarters were the porters, toward the east, west, north, and south. 25 And their brethren, which were in their villages, were to come after seven days from time to time with them. 26 For these Levites, the four chief porters, were in their set office, and were over the chambers and treasuries of the house of God. 27 And they lodged round about the house of God, because the charge was upon them, and the opening thereof every morning pertained to them. 28 And certain of them had the charge of the ministering vessels, that they should bring them in and out by tale*. 29 Some of them also were appointed to oversee the vessels, and all the instruments of the sanctuary, and the fine flour, and the wine, and the oil, and the frankincense, and the spices. 30 And some of the sons of the priests made the ointment of the spices. 31 And Mattithiah, one of the Levites, who was the firstborn of Shallum (reward/retribution, to be at peace) the Korahite, had the set office over the things that were made in the pans. 32 And other of their brethren, of the sons of the Kohathites, were over the shewbread*, to prepare it every sabbath.
:cloud9: The word opening there is the same word translated as "key". Mattithiah's name means "gift of God", the roots of which go into recompense, reward. What He has written on our hearts, most of which is yet to be revealed, IS our reward. Which is why when He comes, His reward is with Him, and why it says we know not yet what we shall be like, but we know when He appears we shall be like Him. He appears to us continously as the "times of refreshing".
Acts 3:19 KJV Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Our sins are blotted out of the "book" that has been written in our heart/womb. The heart/womb will reproduce the nature of whatever seed is planted in it. Saved, but can't overcome something of the flesh? The root is still there bearing fruit. Start seeking the Lord to uproot it and cast it into the fire of the Holy Ghost. The Lord was not the only one "writing"(parable of the wheat and the tares).
But, praise be to God, children are the reward of the Lord, and the Son in our midst is His reward and the portion He has written. The priest's portion was God Himself.
Because of this principle, this is why we are told to keep our mind (part of the womb/soul of man) on those things that are above (spiritual), because those thoughts bear FRUIT. Working out our salvation with fear and trembling, is the opening of the heart to reveal the contents that He did not write, and remove it = deliverance. This is what the gifts of the Spirit are for, and this is the priestly/inner court realm ushered in by Pentecost.
The key of David is to reveal what the Father has written, and takes the High Priest (and to whomever He gives the key to) to enter in and open THAT portion of the book. The crown of life given to the overcomer, is the mitre of the High Priest, which is the high calling Paul said he was pressing in for. And sadly, most of Christendom thinks they are pressing in for a crown, and having removed the "Jewish thought" from the book, they have NO IDEA what the crown represents.
Psalm 127:3 KJV Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.
Hebrews 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37 For yet a little while*, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Genesis 15:1 KJV After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
:cloud9: Sorry to get long-winded here, but one thing leads to another, leads to another, LOL.....Blessings this day....
Quote from: Cardinal on December 29, 2011, 05:16:16 PM
:cloud9: Good posts.....lots of life coming forth. :thumbsup: Amen.
The Tabernacle of David is the house of David, and Christ the Seed that is Spirit has the key of David, and He can give it to whomever He will. The word key in Hebrew runs into a meaning of "to open, to loose oneself, be engraved, carved".
Isaiah 22:22 KJV And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open .
Below is a commentary on the above verse by Joseph Addison Alexander, from "Isaiah Translated and Explained (http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/ISA/JAA.php)."
And I will put the key of the house of David on his shoulder; he shall open and there shall be no one shutting, he shall shut and there shall be no one opening. In other words, he shall have unlimited control over the royal house and household, which according to oriental usages implies a high political authority. Some suppose a reference to the actual bearing of the key by the royal steward or chamberlain, and explain its being carried on the shoulder by the fact that large wooden locks and keys of corresponding size are still used in some countries, the latter being sometimes curved like a sickle so as to be hung around the neck. Against this explanation it may be objected, that the phrase house of David seems to imply a metaphorical rather than a literal palace, and that the word translated shoulder includes the upper part of the back, as the place for bearing burdens. (See above, ch. 9:4. 10:27.) The best interpreters appear to be agreed that the government or administration is here represented by the figure of a burden, not merely in the general as in ch. 9:6, but the specific burden of a key, chosen in order to express the idea of control over the royal house, which was the title of the office in question. The application of the same terms to Peter (Matt. 16:19) and to Christ himself (Rev. 3:7) does not prove that they here refer to either, or that Eliakim was a type of Christ, but merely that the same words admit of different applications.Quote from: Cardinal on December 29, 2011, 05:16:16 PM
Revelation 3:7 KJV And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
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The key is placed upon the shoulder, the shoulder of the High Priest. The authority rests upon the shoulder, and the engraved onyx stones with the names/natures of the twelve tribes was what was upon his shoulders. They are there as a burden, as a shepherd throws the one lost sheep upon his shoulder, ie. no greater love has any man than this.
Jesus possess the key of the house of David, which evidently means "unlimited control over the royal house and household," which of course is the church. Unless Christ
opens our minds we cannot understand the mysteries of God; He is the only one who could open the seals of the prophetic book described in Revelation 5. Jesus also said that he would give the
keys of the kingdom of heaven to Peter.
Matthew 16:19
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
We may find many of these
keys in Peter's preaching to the Jews, recorded in the early chapters of Acts, and in his epistles. In fact, the whole New Testament represents these keys, IMO. Peter also recorded some "keys" for understanding prophecy, in 1 Peter 1:9-12. Here he says, the prophets ministered "not unto themselves, but unto us," that is, to the church; the Spirit of Christ was in them; they "prophesied of the grace that should come unto you," or in other words, their prophecies are concerned primarily with the Gospel (which is, after all, a
prophecy); and these are the things which "are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven."
These principles may be examples of the "keys" given to Peter; they point us to the right approach for understanding the words of the OT prophets.
Doug
:cloud9: EXACTLY.....lines up perfectly with what I was sharing. :thumbsup: As priests, we have the power to remit sins (loosing) and to retain them (binding), which is why He said when you see (perceive thru the mind of Christ) that the son of man has the power to remit sins, know this, that the kingdom of God has come unto you.
Retaining them is the same as shutting up heaven that it rain not upon the earth(en vessels). Healing occurs, when we have loosed in heaven (Christ IS heaven, the firmament), thereby loosing in earth (en vessels). Loosing in heaven, requires the activation of faith, it being mixed like an apothecary of the priests, looses in earth. Thus, the evidence of that faith IS seen (in earth), as it is in heaven (mind of Christ). This is why He spit (water/spirit) in the earth to restore sight; He was mixing an "apothecary". Blessings...
PS. I've never read any scholar's work, so what you posted REALLY blessed me. :HeartThrob:
Isaiah 63:11 Then his people recalled the days of old, the days of Moses and his people--where is he who brought them through the sea, with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them,
12That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name
Isaiah 65:9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, and from Judah those who will possess my mountains; my chosen people will inherit them, and there will my servants live.
Obadiah 1:17 But on Mount Zion will be deliverance; it will be holy, and the house of Jacob will possess its inheritance.
Micah 7:14 Shepherd your people with your staff, the flock of your inheritance, which lives by itself in a forest, in fertile pasturelands. Let them feed in Bashan and Gilead as in days long ago.
Tell him this is what the LORD Almighty says: 'Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the LORD. [Zech 6:12]
The New Convenant [Testament]
31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. --Jer 31
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) [Rom 2]
And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart. [Eze 26:36]
You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. [2 Cor 3:3]
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2011, 07:46:38 PM
Isaiah 63:11 Then his people recalled the days of old, the days of Moses and his people--where is he who brought them through the sea, with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them,
12That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name
Isaiah 65:9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, and from Judah those who will possess my mountains; my chosen people will inherit them, and there will my servants live.
Some of the previous verses in this chapter are quoted by Paul, and applied to the church. The first verse is:
Isaiah 65:1
I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.
Paul quotes this in Romans 10.
Romans 10:19-21
But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
The "foolish nation" in verse 19 evidently applies to the Gentiles.
In the KJV, verse 9 refers to a "seed" which could be a reference to Christ.
Isaiah 65:9
And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
Paul said Jesus has inherited
all the promises of God. [2 Corinthians 1:20] Clearly, Jesus is "a seed out of Jacob," and out of Judah. And he is the "inheritor of my mountains," which are metaphors, that represent the promises of God. This was pointed out by H. A. C. Hävernick (1810-1845) in his commentary on Ezekiel. [Heinrich Andreas Christoph Hävernick. Commentar über den Propheten Ezechiel (http://books.google.com/books?id=OdMDAAAAQAAJ&oe=UTF-8). Erlangen: C. Heyder. 1843. p. 569.] Hävernick also referenced Deuteronomy 33:15 and Habakkuk 3:6. (The book is in German.)
He supported this interpretation of the symbolic meaning of mountains from Genesis 49:26, which is the account of Jacob blessing his son Joseph. Jacob referred to his blessings as extending to "the utmost bound of the everlasting hills." The promises and blessings he received were
high, or
lofty, like high mountains, and
everlasting, like the everlasting hills. In other words, they were
spiritual in nature, and
eternal.
The prophet Habakkuk also spoke of mountains as "everlasting." They represent eternal, spiritual promises. Unless the mountains were symbolic in his prophecy, their being
scattered would seem to contradict the idea that they are
everlasting.
Habakkuk 3:6
He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.
Taken literally, to say "the everlasting mountains were scattered" seems like a contradiction. How could mountains be "scattered"? This enigma is made more curious by his statement that they are "everlasting." The answer is, the "perpetual hills" and "everlasting mountains" are metaphors, and represent God's promises, and the blessings of the Gospel. In the Gospel, the promises of Israel have become available to Gentiles, who are made nigh to "the commonwealth of Israel, and the covenants of promise" through faith in Christ and his shed blood. [Ephesians 2:12-13]
Jesus said, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:" [Matthew 24:15-16] I think he meant mountains in a metaphorical sense; flee to God's promises, and God's righteousness. [Psalm 36:6]
The statement in Isaiah 65:9, "mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there" means, not that the saints from all countries and nations will go to Canaan or to Palestine, and dwell there, but that they will possess what that land represents, the
spiritual promises to the church, and a "better country." [Hebrews 11:16] These things include understanding the Scriptures, and the message of the Gospel. Jesus said, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." [John 16:13]
Doug
Quote from: Doug on December 29, 2011, 08:47:45 PM
The prophet Habakkuk also spoke of mountains as "everlasting." They represent eternal, spiritual promises. Unless the mountains were symbolic in his prophecy, their being scattered would seem to contradict the idea that they are everlasting.
Habakkuk 3:6
He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.
Taken literally, to say "the everlasting mountains were scattered" seems like a contradiction. How could mountains be "scattered"? This enigma is made more curious by his statement that they are "everlasting." The answer is, the "perpetual hills" and "everlasting mountains" are metaphors, and represent God's promises, and the blessings of the Gospel. In the Gospel, the promises of Israel have become available to Gentiles, who are made nigh to "the commonwealth of Israel, and the covenants of promise" through faith in Christ and his shed blood. [Ephesians 2:12-13]
Jesus said, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:" [Matthew 24:15-16] I think he meant mountains in a metaphorical sense; flee to God's promises, and God's righteousness. [Psalm 36:6]
The statement in Isaiah 65:9, "mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there" means, not that the saints from all countries and nations will go to Canaan or to Palestine, and dwell there, but that they will possess what that land represents, the spiritual promises to the church, and a "better country." [Hebrews 11:16] These things include understanding the Scriptures, and the message of the Gospel. Jesus said, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." [John 16:13]
Doug
Amen. Beautiful. I would include in "the better country" becoming "partakers of the divine nature", "being transformed into the image of Christ", and "being filled up to all the fulness of God".
Also as an interesting aside....... Habbakuk did not refer to the hills as "everlasting" per say. In Habbakuk three words "quedem", "ad" and "olam" are all translated "everlasting". I wonder what the reason for that is. Just "three different ways of saying the same thing?" or, maybe something worth looking into a little more closely.
Quote from: eaglesway on December 29, 2011, 09:00:44 PM
Quote from: Doug on December 29, 2011, 08:47:45 PM
The prophet Habakkuk also spoke of mountains as "everlasting." They represent eternal, spiritual promises. Unless the mountains were symbolic in his prophecy, their being scattered would seem to contradict the idea that they are everlasting.
Habakkuk 3:6
He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.
Taken literally, to say "the everlasting mountains were scattered" seems like a contradiction. How could mountains be "scattered"? This enigma is made more curious by his statement that they are "everlasting." The answer is, the "perpetual hills" and "everlasting mountains" are metaphors, and represent God's promises, and the blessings of the Gospel. In the Gospel, the promises of Israel have become available to Gentiles, who are made nigh to "the commonwealth of Israel, and the covenants of promise" through faith in Christ and his shed blood. [Ephesians 2:12-13]
Jesus said, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:" [Matthew 24:15-16] I think he meant mountains in a metaphorical sense; flee to God's promises, and God's righteousness. [Psalm 36:6]
The statement in Isaiah 65:9, "mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there" means, not that the saints from all countries and nations will go to Canaan or to Palestine, and dwell there, but that they will possess what that land represents, the spiritual promises to the church, and a "better country." [Hebrews 11:16] These things include understanding the Scriptures, and the message of the Gospel. Jesus said, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." [John 16:13]
Doug
Amen. Beautiful. I would include in "the better country" becoming "partakers of the divine nature", "being transformed into the image of Christ", and "being filled up to all the fulness of God".
Also as an interesting aside....... Habbakuk did not refer to the hills as "everlasting" per say. In Habbakuk three words "quedem", "ad" and "olam" are all translated "everlasting". I wonder what the reason for that is. Just "three different ways of saying the same thing?" or, maybe something worth looking into a little more closely.
:thumbsup:
Doug
Quote from: DougSome of the previous verses in this chapter are quoted by Paul, and applied to the church. The first verse is:
Isaiah 65:1
I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.
Paul quotes this in Romans 10.
Romans 10:19-21
But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
The "foolish nation" in verse 19 evidently applies to the Gentiles.
The New Covenant was made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. The house of Judah returned to the land and preserved their identity, but the house of Israel was sifted through the nations and became Gentiles.
In fulfillment of the covenant, he becomes sought of them that didn't ask for him, he finds those that didn't seek for him, a nation not called by his name for they are called 'Gentile,' the no-people, the not-a-people become his people called by his name--Christian.
"Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.' Hos 1:10
Romans 9:26 and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"
2 Corinthians 6:18 "I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."
:cloud9: I was meditating on this subject of the High Priest again on the way home yesterday, and it occured to me that the High Priest's (Aaron) seed, also served in that capacity until they were struck dead for offering up strange fire. We too, have a High Priest, Christ, and His SEED, a many-membered body of sons, also will serve in that capacity, which goes along with what I related about the crown the overcomers receive (the mitre of the High Priest), but they won't offer up strange fire.
THESE are the sons of God Romans 8 is talking about and why all of creation is waiting for their manifestation. The priest realm we have been in, could only cover sin, but the High Priest's ministry on the day of Atonement, REMOVED it. THIS is why we WILL overcome death, because if there is no sin, there can be no death.
This will necessitate a change of blood. Our blood is red because of the iron in it, and iron speaks of judgment. When I was hemmoraging for 7 straight weeks (after 2 days the doctor was concerned I'd need a transfusion), I finally asked told the Lord, surely I must be in need of a transfusion by NOW??? Yet I didn't. The thought came to me then that our blood would be changed or replaced, SOMETHING was going to happen to it. Just thinking out loud this morning over coffee with my friends :winkgrin:.....
1And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
3Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
4And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
5And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.
6And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,
7Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.
8Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.
9For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
10In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.
Quote from: Molly on December 29, 2011, 09:20:40 PM
The New Covenant was made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. The house of Judah returned to the land and preserved their identity, but the house of Israel was sifted through the nations and became Gentiles.
In fulfillment of the covenant, he becomes sought of them that didn't ask for him, he finds those that didn't seek for him, a nation not called by his name for they are called 'Gentile,' the no-people, the not-a-people become his people called by his name--Christian.
"Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.' Hos 1:10
Romans 9:26 and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"
2 Corinthians 6:18 "I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."
Jeremiah's prophecy of the New Covenant is quoted in Hebrews 8:8-12 and 10:16-17. Paul said that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, "circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all." [Colossians 3:11]
Whether or not one has any ethnic lineage from Abraham makes no difference under the New Covenant. The fact that Jeremiah's prophecy says the New Covenant is made with the house of Israel implies that those who believe in Christ are the true Israel of God. And in Romans 11, Paul seems to support this; the Gentiles are the branches of a wild olive that are grafted into a good olive tree, while natural branches were cut off.
In Hebrews 4:1-9, the experience of the Israelites in the wilderness is compared with that of those who believe the Gospel. The point of comparison is that faith is required, in order for one to enter into God's "rest." This was true of the Israelites under Moses, and also for those in the church. What is the "rest"? In the case of the Israelites, it was the literal promised land. In the case of Christians, it is what the promised land represents:
the spiritual things promised to the church.
The land of Canaan was the territory where the descendants of Jacob dwelt for several centuries, and where many of the revelations of God were given. The history of the Israelites, and their customs, and language, provide the background setting for these revelations. When Paul considered the question, what is the chief benefit of being Jewish? he did not even mention inheriting the land of Canaan, but said: "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed
the oracles of God." [Romans 3:1-2] Possessing the revelations of God are their chief advantage. And for a Christian, the knowledge of the Scriptures and
understanding their message, as expounded in the New Testament, and
believing it, corresponds to dwelling in the promised land. This is the "better country" referred to in Hebrews 11:16. In Ezekiel's prophecies, and other prophecies of the OT, the land and the mountains of Israel correspond to God's promises intended for the church. On the other hand, the lands of other nations, where the covenant people are scattered, and from where they are to be brought back, in a new and greater exodus, correspond false religions, flawed interpretations, and ideas of men. To be brought back to the promised land represents understanding the prophecies, and all the Scriptures, as Jesus said, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." [John 16:13]
Entering the "rest" is pictured in a typological way by the conquest of the land by the Israelites, led by Joshua. As there were said to be "giants" occupying the land, there are spiritual "giants" who have to be dealt with in order for us to possess our spiritual inheritance. They include the Church Fathers, Reformers, Bible scholars, the founders of numerous denominations and sects, critical scholars, preachers, ministers, missionaries, TV personalities etc. They are the spiritual "giants" who shape what is currently believed in the churches.
Some of them claim that the "land" in the OT is nothing else but the literal land of Palestine, and the promises of a return to the land apply to ethnic Jews, and must be fulfilled in a
literal way. They miss the spiritual meaning of the "land" as a
type and
shadow of the "better country" into which Christ leads his saints. Jesus is the true shepherd who "seeks his sheep." [Ez. 34:11] He says he will deliver them from the mouths of the shepherds who feed themselves. [Ez. 34:10]
They will be gathered from the countries where they are scattered and brought to their own land, where they will feed "upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers." [vs. 13] These mountains are symbolic of the promises to the church. The prophet Joel said "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters." [Joel 3:18] These of course are metaphors; new wine has a spiritual meaning. When the Spirit was given to the disciples in Acts 2, they were thought to have become drunk with "new wine." [Acts 2:13]
A similar prophecy by Amos says: "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt." [Amos 9:13] The prophet was not describing the productivity of the literal land in a future millennium, but the happy effects of believing and understanding the message of the Gospel; metaphors of plowing, sowing, and reaping, are each mentioned in the parables of Jesus, and connected with the Gospel.
Doug
Quote from: DougWhether or not one has any ethnic lineage from Abraham makes no difference under the New Covenant. The fact that Jeremiah's prophecy says the New Covenant is made with the house of Israel implies that those who believe in Christ are the true Israel of God. And in Romans 11, Paul seems to support this; the Gentiles are the branches of a wild olive that are grafted into a good olive tree, while natural branches were cut off.
I'm not suggesting overlooking all the spiritual meanings in the Bible, nor do I do that. But I do insist [maybe a little stubbornly] on having a story with a beginning, middle, and end--because I believe the whole Bible was written by one hand.
There would be no easy way to trace for sure the migrations of those lost tribes, or to say this one belongs and that one doesn't. God has made sure that 2800 years later no one will be able to say much of anything about it at all. But, I'm sure it knocked the socks off the apostles when the light dawned on them that these Gentiles they were converting in droves were their [lost] brothers, as we can see in Acts 15.
12Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
--Acts 15
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings. James 1:1
What twelve tribes? They had disappeared almost a thousand years before this was written.
Quote from: Molly on December 30, 2011, 05:35:41 PM
Quote from: DougWhether or not one has any ethnic lineage from Abraham makes no difference under the New Covenant. The fact that Jeremiah's prophecy says the New Covenant is made with the house of Israel implies that those who believe in Christ are the true Israel of God. And in Romans 11, Paul seems to support this; the Gentiles are the branches of a wild olive that are grafted into a good olive tree, while natural branches were cut off.
I'm not suggesting overlooking all the spiritual meanings in the Bible, nor do I do that. But I do insist [maybe a little stubbornly] on having a story with a beginning, middle, and end--because I believe the whole Bible was written by one hand.
There would be no easy way to trace for sure the migrations of those lost tribes, or to say this one belongs and that one doesn't. God has made sure that 2800 years later no one will be able to say much of anything about it at all. But, I'm sure it knocked the socks off the apostles when the light dawned on them that these Gentiles they were converting in droves were their [lost] brothers, as we can see in Acts 15.
12Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Let's first speak of natural Gentiles, and natural Israelites. Either these people were Gentiles, or not; in which case they might be the people of the ten tribes, that is, Israelites, but, the text calls them
Gentiles. If the Scripture is right, then they were not members of the lost ten tribes.
Quote from: Molly on December 30, 2011, 05:35:41 PM
15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
--Acts 15
If they were natural Israelites, then they would not fulfill the prophecy that James referred to. This also applies to Paul's argument, in Romans 11; if the people Paul preached to were natural Israelites rather than Gentiles his argument is invalid. In that case, how could he be the "apostle of the Gentiles"?
Romans 11:12-14
Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Quote from: Molly on December 30, 2011, 05:35:41 PM
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings. James 1:1
What twelve tribes? They had disappeared almost a thousand years before this was written.
IMO, James addressed the
church as the "twelve tribes." This is a cipher, or a symbol, as the church consists of those "made nigh to the covenants and promises of Israel" by faith in Christ. Paul said to the Ephesians, "Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ." [Ephesians 2:11-13] None of this would make sense, if the Ephesian Christians in fact belonged to the lost ten tribes of Israel. The natural tribes of the Israelites were apparently lost to history, and their separate identities disappeared, probably because of intermarriage between the tribes, or with the people of other nations, and they were scattered during various migrations. Some say, they ended up in England, Wales, Ireland, or other parts of Western Europe; others say Africa, some say India, some say Afghanistan, or Pakistan, some say they are the Samaritans, some say they went to the Iberian peninsula, and migrated to South America, or to North America. I think the Mormons claim that some of the American Indians descend from the lost ten tribes.
On the other hand, Paul said the Gentile believers at Ephesus were "made nigh by the blood of Christ" to the covenants of promise and the promises to Israel, which would include the label "Israel." And this explains why James addressed his epistle to the "twelve tribes." Similarly, John said that the number of those who were sealed was 144,000 "of all the tribes of the children of Israel." [Revelation 7:4] He listed each of the tribes, but he excluded the tribe of Dan, and said there were 12,000 from each tribe. Obviously, this is a symbolic number.
Doug
Quote from: DougLet's first speak of natural Gentiles, and natural Israelites. Either these people were Gentiles, or not; in which case they might be the people of the ten tribes, that is, Israelites, but, the text calls them Gentiles. If the Scripture is right, then they were not members of the lost ten tribes
Abraham was a Gentile. Everyone started out as a Gentile. God set the Israelites apart for his own purposes, as a called out people, as a holy nation. He called them Hebrews, the crossed over ones. He called them Israelites, he will rule as God, the imagers.
QuoteIf they were natural Israelites, then they would not fulfill the prophecy that James referred to. This also applies to Paul's argument, in Romans 11; if the people Paul preached to were natural Israelites rather than Gentiles his argument is invalid. In that case, how could he be the "apostle of the Gentiles"?
I don't really understand what you're saying, if you could explain that more. But, don't call all twelve tribes by the name of the tribe of Judah, i.e. Jews. Each tribe has its own name.
Quote"Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ." [Ephesians 2:11-13]
Paul is saying you were called the Uncircumcision. To me, that's the same as being called Not My People. This is the fulfillment of the prophecy where God says of the northern tribes, call them Loammi, which means not a people. But, then he continues with the prophecy--
1The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel.
2The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms:
for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD. 3So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son.
4And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu,
and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel. 5And it shall come to pass at that day, that
I will break the bow of Israel, in the valley of Jezreel.
--Hos 1
Jezreel=
God will sow1Hear ye this, O priests; and hearken, ye house of Israel; and give ye ear, O house of the king; for judgment is toward you, because ye have been a snare on Mizpah, and a net spread upon Tabor.
2And the revolters are profound to make slaughter, though I have been a rebuker of them all.
3I know Ephraim, and Israel is not hid from me:
for now, O Ephraim, thou committest whoredom, and Israel is defiled. 4They will not frame their doings to turn unto their God: for the spirit of whoredoms is in the midst of them, and they have not known the LORD.
5And the pride of Israel doth testify to his face:
therefore shall Israel and Ephraim fall in their iniquity: Judah also shall fall with them. [Hos 5]
God spits them out and sows them, as he says,
into the earth [Hos 2].We see Loammi [meaning not my people] is fulfilled. The house of Israel disappears from history...
9Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are
not my people, and I will not be your God.
But when is this prophecy fulfilled:10Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
--Hos 1
I don't understand why you would suddenly call random Gentiles the twelve tribes. It doesn't make any sense if it's random. It's not random.
Then the LORD will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods--gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known. [Deut 28:64]
I think that it's through the scattering of the northern tribes that all the nations of the earth shall be blessed--the promise made to Abraham's seed.
Quote from: Molly on December 30, 2011, 08:53:02 PM
QuoteIf they were natural Israelites, then they would not fulfill the prophecy that James referred to. This also applies to Paul's argument, in Romans 11; if the people Paul preached to were natural Israelites rather than Gentiles his argument is invalid. In that case, how could he be the "apostle of the Gentiles"?
I don't really understand what you're saying, if you could explain that more. But, don't call all twelve tribes by the name of the tribe of Judah, i.e. Jews. Each tribe has its own name.
This was a comment related to your claim that Acts 15:12-18 supports the idea that the Gentile converts in the early church were in fact the lost ten tribes of Israel, which to me, seems to have no foundation, and in fact it is contradicted by the statements referring to the people of those churches as Gentiles.
In Romans 11:7, Paul says, "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."
I suggest that this statement of Paul discredits you idea that the Gentile churches were in fact members of the ten tribes, if that is indeed what you are saying, and it seems to be. Because Paul tells us "Israel hath
not obtained that which he seeketh for," and contrasts their
failure with the "election," referring to the believers in Gentile churches who had
received the Gospel. Paul does not say "Jews" here, but "Israel." The rest, who did not believe, he said, were "blinded."
BTW is this idea you are promoting an interpretation you have developed yourself, from your own study, or have you obtained it from others? Do you have any references to books or articles that support the idea?
Doug
Quote from: DougBTW is this idea you are promoting an interpretation you have developed yourself, from your own study, or have you obtained it from others? Do you have any references to books or articles that support the idea?
I'm not promoting the idea. Just talking about it. It is a conclusion I came to a while ago, and it still makes a lot of sense to me. Otherwise, you have God breaking his promises to his people, and maybe you could take some time to show me how that would not be so.
It is also something I feel to be true in my bones, if that makes any sense. I have also thought, well, what tribe would I be from if it were true? And, I've looked at family names [first names]. They come from the tribes of Judah and Manasseh. So I am kind of serious about it, for myself.
Yes, there have been others that thought some form of this to be true--mostly in the 19th century. It seems to have fallen out of favor in the 20th century. Although there is a man in Israel now who actually does promote the idea with books and videos. I was looking at his videos last night. I haven't read his books.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFvQNzRsf6g&feature=relatedNow, as for Paul, he plays games with the word 'Israel.' He says things like not all Israel is Israel.
In your script, he's calling the Jehudites 'Israel,' when he knows full well they are only two tribes, Benjamin and Judah, and called the house of Judah.
But, he does make this mysterious statement at the end of Romans...
26And so all Israel shall be saved: Rom 11
Well, how does he come to that conclusion? Do we really think Paul has somehow forgotten that only two tribes [plus some Levites] are left in the land and the rest are lost? It is the northern ten tribes who were last known as Israel, not the house of Judah. So saving the house of Judah, which is what he talking about, is not going to save all Israel. Or is it? Because the rest--the multitude of nations, the fulness of the Gentiles--will have already been saved?
Paul is an Old Testament scholar. He knows to whom God made the covenant.
Molly, you and Doug are talking about things of which I know very little. Never studied it, but I do find it interesting. I've kind of come to the conclusion that God knows who Israel and the Jews are, whether scattered or "lost" - He knows who to save when and in what order. :bigGrin:
There's a significant piece of scripture though that I think about, not just in this discussion, but in others - especially when I think about Jesus' earthly ministry, His purpose, His primary audience of earthly ministry. I wonder how it fits in this discussion, might it shed any light, contribute to any "changes in direction"...
I't s when He said He came only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. What I'm really referring to though, is the prior context to that statement; a Gentile, a Samaritan [edit] Canaanite woman had come to Him and ask of Him a favor. He basically ignored her, until she continued to "bug" Him, when He finally responded to her request. IF I'm reading that correctly, she did not appear to be in His primary audience/target of "the lost sheep of the House of Israel". Or maybe there's another explanation. I do wonder how and where that fits..
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
--Mat 15:24
What does he mean by that? It's a good question. A lot of commentators say he means the 'Jews.' Does that also include the tribe of Benjamin and the tribe of Levi who stayed in the southern kingdom with the tribe of Judah? And since when is 'Jews' synonymous with 'the house of Israel'? Israel was 12 tribes, not one. The house of Israel was ten tribes, not one.
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: Rom 15:8
Some will say the circumcision in this passage refers to the 'Jews.' But, Paul explains that the circumcision refers to the heart because that was the Old Testament promise God made--I will give them a heart of flesh and I write my laws on their hearts.
My sheep know my voice and they will follow me, he says.
If we look at the sheep who followed his voice, they are 99.9 percent Gentile. Is he calling them 'the lost sheep of the house of Israel'?
I was just looking at some info on the Gentile "church" being the lost sheep. But IMO, it seems something doesn't fit. Again, look at the context;
A Gentile woman who lived there came to him, pleading, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! For my daughter is possessed by a demon that torments her severely."
But Jesus gave her no reply, not even a word. Then his disciples urged him to send her away. "Tell her to go away," they said. "She is bothering us with all her begging."
Then Jesus said to the woman, "I was sent only to help God's lost sheep--the people of Israel."
But she came and worshiped him, pleading again, "Lord, help me!"
Jesus responded, "It isn't right to take food from the children and throw it to the dogs."
So IMO, here's another option (though I know little of OT history of the tribes, etc. - mostly a NT guy :happy3:); Jesus earthly ministry was to the nation of Israel/the Jews (those of the Jewish religion?) - thus the "lost sheep" - and it wasn't until AFTER the cross that the Gospel went to the Gentiles. It appears He said above, the nation of Israel (those of the Jewish religion, temple worship, etc.) were "the children", while the Gentiles (me) were the "dogs". :dontknow:
So I realize there is much mixing of races, people scattered all over, etc. Guess that was certainly less so at the time - but could it be there was strong consideration then to those that practiced the Jewish religion? Which would also be a demarcation of those who were veiled/couldn't see Him? Or maybe nationality was the primary thing somehow, I'm just not sure. Again, with all the mixing and scattering, I've sort of just looked at it more as an outline - the Jews (whoever they are - He knows) rejected Him and are blinded; while the Gentiles (He knows who they/we are) have had the gospel brought to us. Then there will be a fulfillment of that, and the Jews (whoever they are) will be "turned to" and will be brought in as well. The outline, without really being able to determine many of the details...seems those practicing the Jewish religion though could be a "wild card" in this, you know, still waiting for a Messiah per their religious indoctrination, etc.
P.S. that translation I quoted that says "the people of Israel" was sort of "random", it was the one in biblegateway below the NIV which I try not to use so much.
That's an interesting translation/interpretation though...I'm going to look at others...
I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
--Rom 1:16
Yes, salvation is offered to the 'Jews' first, and most of his ministry before the cross is to the tribes of Israel that are still extant
But, does that mean he was sent only to the 'Jews,' and that they are the lost sheep of the house of israel?
They aren't lost physically. They are still there and going to Temple.
Are they lost spiritually? They are still there and going to Temple.
How are they lost?
Furthermore, Paul tells us they have been purposely blinded so that the Gentiles can come in.
So gong to them is merely a formality.
Here's another interesting thing. He picks the most educated Torah scholar in the country to send as Apostle to the Gentiles. What's with that?
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2011, 01:07:07 AM
I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
--Rom 1:16
Yes, salvation is offered to the 'Jews' first, and most of his ministry before the cross is to the tribes of Israel that are still extant
But, does that mean he was sent only to the 'Jews,' and that they are the lost sheep of the house of israel?
They aren't lost physically. They are still there and going to Temple.
i'll think out loud...maybe going to Temple they were still lost spiritually? doing the works of the Law never saved anyone... hmmm
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2011, 01:07:07 AM
Furthermore, Paul tells us they have been purposely blinded so that the Gentiles can come in.
So gong to them is merely a formality.
that's one thing that's puzzled me...they are said to have rejected Him, yet it's apparent they were blinded so they were not allowed to see.. maybe formality's a good word...like it just had to be done as a piece of the puzzle [of The Plan] that needed to be inserted somehow
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2011, 01:07:07 AM
He picks the most educated Torah scholar in the country to send as Apostle to the Gentiles. What's with that?
LOL
the thought that comes to my mind is, to show all the learning and wisdom of men is worth nothing? Paul said he came not with fancy speech, etc., but with the demonstration of the power of God. He was a "big man", put to his knees, blinded, and having to be led around by the hand...then lifted by the power of God. The first shall be last... again the thought, all the knowing of the Law, keeping it, being able to teach it, etc., was not a spiritual cure. "Without faith it is impossible to please God". :2c:
we're saved by grace through faith, and THAT not of ourselves. it is the gift of God.
I actually think it is because Paul is the only one who would understand what God was doing based on his knowledge of the Old Testament.
Peter was --what? You want me to do what? Eat with those people?
But, Paul can put it all in context. He is constantly quoting the Old Testament and putting it in context for the Gentiles.
If Jesus is coming only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel, we know from the Old Testament that there are really lost Israelites because God scattered them to the four winds--but before he did, he made them a promise.
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
--Jer 31
woah. Doesn't that sound like what Jesus did on the cross? Doesn't that sound like Paul's description of the circumcised Gentile?
Either the church is those people described in Jer 31 or the church has replaced them and they are lost forever.
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2011, 12:30:04 AM
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
--Mat 15:24
What does he mean by that? It's a good question. A lot of commentators say he means the 'Jews.' Does that also include the tribe of Benjamin and the tribe of Levi who stayed in the southern kingdom with the tribe of Judah? And since when is 'Jews' synonymous with 'the house of Israel'? Israel was 12 tribes, not one. The house of Israel was ten tribes, not one.
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: Rom 15:8
Some will say the circumcision in this passage refers to the 'Jews.' But, Paul explains that the circumcision refers to the heart because that was the Old Testament promise God made--I will give them a heart of flesh and I write my laws on their hearts.
My sheep know my voice and they will follow me, he says.
If we look at the sheep who followed his voice, they are 99.9 percent Gentile. Is he calling them 'the lost sheep of the house of Israel'?
Why not? And have these people you refer to
really followed his voice?In Ezek. 34, Christ is described
searching for his sheep, who are "meat to all the beasts of the field;" and they "wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill;" and he says, "my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth." Their shepherds feed upon them.
The "lost sheep" metaphor is similar to the metaphor Jesus used, when he said it is the "sick" who need a physician. He said that the
sinners are being called to repentance, not the
righteous.
Matthew 9:8-13
10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Doug
Quote from: Doug on December 31, 2011, 01:43:51 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2011, 12:30:04 AM
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
--Mat 15:24
What does he mean by that? It's a good question. A lot of commentators say he means the 'Jews.' Does that also include the tribe of Benjamin and the tribe of Levi who stayed in the southern kingdom with the tribe of Judah? And since when is 'Jews' synonymous with 'the house of Israel'? Israel was 12 tribes, not one. The house of Israel was ten tribes, not one.
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: Rom 15:8
Some will say the circumcision in this passage refers to the 'Jews.' But, Paul explains that the circumcision refers to the heart because that was the Old Testament promise God made--I will give them a heart of flesh and I write my laws on their hearts.
My sheep know my voice and they will follow me, he says.
If we look at the sheep who followed his voice, they are 99.9 percent Gentile. Is he calling them 'the lost sheep of the house of Israel'?
Why not? And have these people you refer to really followed his voice?
In Ezek. 34, Christ is described searching for his sheep, who are "meat to all the beasts of the field;" and they "wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill;" and he says, "my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth." Their shepherds feed upon them.
The "lost sheep" metaphor is similar to the metaphor Jesus used, when he said it is the "sick" who need a physician. He said that the sinners are being called to repentance, not the righteous.
Matthew 9:8-13
10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Doug
Two sticks and they shall be joined one to another....and they shall become one in mine hand.
Solve that puzzle for me first.
back to this particular passage and my original question; any thoughts on how this fits? that He ignored the Gentile, said who He came for, and that He shouldn't take from the children and give to the dogs? I know there's a lot to it, but in this particular passage, it appears to me He's calling the gentiles the dogs and "someone else" the house of israel... also, all this is obviously pre-cross. you said one time Molly, "the cross changed everything"! :mshock: not sure if that applies to this piece specifically :dontknow:
alright, i don't have all the historical perspective, this is the main piece of it i wonder about. seems important, an
indicator - a clue. i'll let you guys continue. :bigGrin:
Quote from: jabcat on December 31, 2011, 12:08:58 AM
I't s when He said He came only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. What I'm really referring to though, is the prior context to that statement; a Gentile, a Canaanite woman had come to Him and ask of Him a favor. He basically ignored her, until she continued to "bug" Him, when He finally responded to her request. IF I'm reading that correctly, she did not appear to be in His primary audience/target of "the lost sheep of the House of Israel". I do wonder how and where that fits..
Quote from: jabcat on December 31, 2011, 12:41:13 AM
I was just looking at some info on the Gentile "church" being the lost sheep. But IMO, it seems something doesn't fit. Again, look at the context;
A Gentile woman who lived there came to him, pleading, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! For my daughter is possessed by a demon that torments her severely."
But Jesus gave her no reply, not even a word. Then his disciples urged him to send her away. "Tell her to go away," they said. "She is bothering us with all her begging."
Then Jesus said to the woman, "I was sent only to help God's lost sheep--the people of Israel."
But she came and worshiped him, pleading again, "Lord, help me!"
Jesus responded, "It isn't right to take food from the children and throw it to the dogs."
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2011, 01:54:27 AM
Quote from: Doug on December 31, 2011, 01:43:51 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2011, 12:30:04 AM
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
--Mat 15:24
What does he mean by that? It's a good question. A lot of commentators say he means the 'Jews.' Does that also include the tribe of Benjamin and the tribe of Levi who stayed in the southern kingdom with the tribe of Judah? And since when is 'Jews' synonymous with 'the house of Israel'? Israel was 12 tribes, not one. The house of Israel was ten tribes, not one.
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: Rom 15:8
Some will say the circumcision in this passage refers to the 'Jews.' But, Paul explains that the circumcision refers to the heart because that was the Old Testament promise God made--I will give them a heart of flesh and I write my laws on their hearts.
My sheep know my voice and they will follow me, he says.
If we look at the sheep who followed his voice, they are 99.9 percent Gentile. Is he calling them 'the lost sheep of the house of Israel'?
Why not? And have these people you refer to really followed his voice?
In Ezek. 34, Christ is described searching for his sheep, who are "meat to all the beasts of the field;" and they "wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill;" and he says, "my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth." Their shepherds feed upon them.
The "lost sheep" metaphor is similar to the metaphor Jesus used, when he said it is the "sick" who need a physician. He said that the sinners are being called to repentance, not the righteous.
Matthew 9:8-13
10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Doug
Two sticks and they shall be joined one to another....and they shall become one in mine hand.
Solve that puzzle for me first.
Ezekiel 37
15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
This seems to say that the ten tribes of Israel which had been taken into captivity long before Ezekiel's time would be united with the tribe of Judah, which is very likely what actually happened. There was some contact between the Israelite tribes and the kingdom of Judah after the Assyrian captivity, as indicated in 2 Chronicles 35:17; when Israel kept the passover in the reign of Josiah. Obviously the ten tribes were not lost at that point in their history. Many of Ezekiel's prophecies make reference to the Israelites.
After the Babylonian captivity, the names Israel and Judah (or Jew) applied to the same people, as suggested by Ezekiel's prophecy where the two sticks become one. Some descendants of the ten tribes who had been living in what is now Iraq returned with the Jews and rebuilt the temple.
AFAIK, the Scripture does not actually say that the ten tribes were "lost." That is a fairly modern idea.
The New Testament refers to Zabulon and Nephthalim, two of the ten tribes.
Matthew 4:12-16
Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;
And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
There is also a reference to the "country of the Gadarenes" which may allude to Gad, another tribe.
Luke 8:26
And they arrived at the country of the Gadarenes, which is over against Galilee.
Ezekiel 37
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
These things are fulfilled in the church, and in Christ, in whom, Paul said, all the promises of God "are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us." [2 Corinthians 1:20]
The "mountains of Israel" are symbolic of the promises and revelations of God, as Jacob indicated when he blessed Joseph, Genesis 49:26, and said, "The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren."
Mountains are high, or lofty, and durable, as are the
blessings and
promises that Jacob inherited. They were spiritual, and eternal.
The king referred to by Ezekiel is Christ, who has inherited the throne of David.
Ezekiel 37
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
The "everlasting covenant" is the New Covenant that Christ confirms with his saints in the present age.
See this post (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/book_revelation/rapture_dream_10137.msg134171.html#msg134171) for more.
Doug
Quote from: DougThis seems to say that the ten tribes of Israel which had been taken into captivity long before Ezekiel's time would be united with the tribe of Judah, which is very likely what actually happened.
I don't see the historical or the Biblical evidence that this had already happened. The twelve tribes of Israel were a lot of people 3000 years ago, over a million people, so that by the time of Jesus a few of them are just mentioned here and there? Just because there are places still named for them doesn't mean they are there; they never returned, and God said they would never return until he writes the law on their hearts and forgives their sins--that means their return to the fold would happen after Jesus and the Cross.
QuoteAfter the Babylonian captivity, the names Israel and Judah (or Jew) applied to the same people, as suggested by Ezekiel's prophecy where the two sticks become one. Some descendants of the ten tribes who had been living in what is now Iraq returned with the Jews and rebuilt the temple.
.
This is a bone of contention since the name Israel was given to Joseph's sons, Ephraim and Manasseh by Jacob.
16The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads;
and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth. Gen 48
This is why the northern ten tribes was called the house of Israel, because Ephraim was the ruling tribe.
Likewise, the southern two tribes was called the house of Judah, because Judah was the ruling tribe and they are called 'Jews' to this day.
The name Israel goes with the tribe of Joseph, through Ephraim and Manasseh--where are they today?
QuoteThese things are fulfilled in the church, and in Christ, in whom, Paul said, all the promises of God "are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us." [2 Corinthians 1:20]
I agree, for which reason we should call the church, Israel. But the Jews are not yet brought in. And, we still speak of Gentile and Jew, as though there are still two separate sticks, not yet brought together. And, to say that Gentile is one of the sticks doesn't even make sense, because the two sticks belonged to the northern and the southern kingdoms, Israel and Judah. Neither one were Gentiles.
Thus, I see this as an end time prophecy. The two sticks will be held together in one hand when Christ returns.
I"m beginning to think our true identity won't be revealed until then, either.
16The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth. Gen 48
You see the tribe of Joseph through Ephraim and Manasseh also get the name of Abraham handed down to them--
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal 3:29
And, they get the name of Isaac handed down to them--
nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." Rom 9:7
Of course Paul knew what he was saying when he made those statements. Joseph is Israel and Joseph, the double portioned one, gets the whole shebang.
Who is this describing if not the Christian "Gentiles"? And, what happens to Joseph? He gets sold into slavery by his brothers where he languishes in obscurity--LOST--for the better part of his life until he emerges as the ruler of a wealthy heathen country, When his brothers see him again, he looks to them like a GENTILE, They don't recognize him as their brother.
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2011, 04:17:14 AM
Quote from: DougThis seems to say that the ten tribes of Israel which had been taken into captivity long before Ezekiel's time would be united with the tribe of Judah, which is very likely what actually happened.
I don't see the historical or the Biblical evidence that this had already happened. The twelve tribes of Israel were a lot of people 3000 years ago, over a million people, so that by the time of Jesus a few of them are just mentioned here and there? Just because there are places still named for them doesn't mean they are there; they never returned, and God said they would never return until he writes the law on their hearts and forgives their sins--that means their return to the fold would happen after Jesus and the Cross.
Ezekiel's prophecies about the return to the land have to be understood and interpreted in the light of the Gospel, not read as if Christ had never come and as if the Spirit was never given to the apostles after he ascended. All Ezekiel's prophecies should be considered together, and one section cannot be isolated from the rest, or else some absurd conclusions are likely to result. His prophecies should also be considered together with other prophecies, such as those in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Zechariah, the Olivet Discourse, Revelation.
The book of Hebrews applies Jeremiah's prophecies about the New Covenant and about God putting His laws into the hearts of His people to the church.
Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Hebrews 10:16
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Ezekiel's prophecy is similar; it also refers to God's covenant. "Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them:" [Ezekiel 37:26]
Ezekiel wrote about salvation, and cleansing from sin, which is what the Gospel is about; "but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them." [Ezekiel 37:23-24] Why should this not apply to the church too?
Ezekiel said, "they all shall have one shepherd." Who is the shepherd? David said, "The Lord is my shepherd." Jesus said, "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep." [John 10:11]
Most commentators recognize that David in Ezekiel 37 refers to Christ.
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2011, 04:17:14 AM
QuoteAfter the Babylonian captivity, the names Israel and Judah (or Jew) applied to the same people, as suggested by Ezekiel's prophecy where the two sticks become one. Some descendants of the ten tribes who had been living in what is now Iraq returned with the Jews and rebuilt the temple.
.
This is a bone of contention since the name Israel was given to Joseph's sons, Ephraim and Manasseh by Jacob.
16The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth. Gen 48
Who gave Jacob the name "Israel"?
I suggest, God can apply the name he gave to Jacob to whoever he wants to... and He showed by Ezekiel's prophecy that it applies to all the tribes, and, the label "Jew" applies to all the tribes as well. The label applies to the covenant people, and those who did not return after the exile were no longer the subjects of the record of Scripture. But wearing this label carries with it a responsibility to live according to the covenant. [Revelation 2:9]
Jesus showed what a
true Israelite is:
John 1:47
Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
Doug
Quote from: DougThe book of Hebrews applies Jeremiah's prophecies about the New Covenant and about God putting His laws into the hearts of His people to the church.
Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Hebrews 10:16
Yes, I agree. Hebrews applies Jeremiah's prophecies about the northern kingdom of Israel to the church! That's why I'm saying the church is the lost tribes--the tribe of Joseph [Ephraim]--Israel.
Joseph's dream--
3Now Israel loved Joseph more than all his children, because he was the son of his old age: and he made him a coat of many colours.
4And when his brethren saw that their father loved him more than all his brethren, they hated him, and could not speak peaceably unto him.
5And Joseph dreamed a dream, and he told it his brethren: and they hated him yet the more.
6And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed:
7For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.
8And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.
9And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
10And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
11And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.
--Gen 37
I think this is an end time dream.
The coat of many colors= a multitude of nations?
Quote from: jabcat on December 31, 2011, 02:24:10 AM
back to this particular passage and my original question; any thoughts on how this fits? that He ignored the Gentile, said who He came for, and that He shouldn't take from the children and give to the dogs?
The man that breaks the bread is both mater to the children and the dogs. The dogs mentioned here are not wild dogs but house-dogs.
http://philologos.org/__eb-lat/book333.htm (http://philologos.org/__eb-lat/book333.htm)
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/james_still/syrophoenician.html
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 31, 2011, 10:52:55 AM
Quote from: jabcat on December 31, 2011, 02:24:10 AM
back to this particular passage and my original question; any thoughts on how this fits? that He ignored the Gentile, said who He came for, and that He shouldn't take from the children and give to the dogs?
The man that breaks the bread is both mater to the children and the dogs. The dogs mentioned here are not wild dogs but house-dogs.
Yes, I've read that. It's not as big of an "insult" :laughing7: as it sounds on the surface.
However...and I'm glad you responded, maybe you have a viewpoint on this particular thing. How do you think it fits this whole discussion Tony regarding who are Jews and Gentiles and who's the lost sheep of house of Israel, that Jesus (even though not insulting) still 1) initially ignored the
Gentile woman 2) then made the comment about taking from the children (Jews/Israel?) and giving to the puppies/pets (Gentiles?) 3) and commenting "I only came for.." What distinctions between who was who do you believe he was making here? I personally think this is a significant passage, speaks to who is who,
and about Jesus' earthly ministry. :2c:
I'll look at your links, maybe there's some info there about my question...
Quote from: jabcat on December 31, 2011, 12:08:58 AM
I't s when He said He came only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. What I'm really referring to though, is the prior context to that statement; a Gentile, a Samaritan [edit] Canaanite woman had come to Him and ask of Him a favor. He basically ignored her, until she continued to "bug" Him, when He finally responded to her request. IF I'm reading that correctly, she did not appear to be in His primary audience/target of "the lost sheep of the House of Israel". Or maybe there's another explanation. I do wonder how and where that fits..
(John 10:16) And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring those also, and they will hear my voice. And there will become one flock, one shepherd.
Here Jesus is refering to 3 types of sheep.
a] Sheep that are part of His flock and with Him. (very few I think)
b] Sheep that one were part of His flock but are now lost. (majority of Israel)
c] All sheep not being a or b
Yes, I believe He's definitely making a distinction (and acting accordingly) between Jews and Gentiles. Even not being "mean" about it, I believe He's still saying "the children are on the inside, the dogs [little dogs/puppies, whatever] (heathens/Gentiles) are on the outside. Seems to me the cross then changed that - for now.
Quote from: jabcat on December 31, 2011, 11:03:53 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 31, 2011, 10:52:55 AM
Quote from: jabcat on December 31, 2011, 02:24:10 AM
back to this particular passage and my original question; any thoughts on how this fits? that He ignored the Gentile, said who He came for, and that He shouldn't take from the children and give to the dogs?
The man that breaks the bread is both mater to the children and the dogs. The dogs mentioned here are not wild dogs but house-dogs.
Yes, I've read that. It's not as big of an "insult" :laughing7: as it sounds on the surface.
However...and I'm glad you responded, maybe you have a viewpoint on this particular thing. How do you think it fits this whole discussion Tony regarding who are Jews and Gentiles and who's the lost sheep of house of Israel,
I tried but I can't explain it so I just gave you a few links. Alfred Edersheim was a orthodox Jew that converted to Christianity and became a pastor or rev.
Jesus spoke from a Jewish perspective and to understand that knowing a bit about their culture might help.
Also remember He called His own mother a dog.
Quote from: jabcat on December 31, 2011, 11:04:28 AMI'll look at your links, maybe there's some info there about my question...
Stop reading because you'll find something you don't like :winkgrin:
Quote from: jabcat on December 31, 2011, 11:18:59 AM
Yes, I believe He's definitely making a distinction (and acting accordingly) between Jews and Gentiles. Even not being "mean" about it, I believe He's still saying "the children are on the inside, the dogs [little dogs/puppies, whatever] (heathens/Gentiles) are on the outside. Seems to me the cross then changed that - for now.
I disagree. The cross changed nothing for the dogs.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 31, 2011, 11:26:57 AM
Quote from: jabcat on December 31, 2011, 11:18:59 AM
Yes, I believe He's definitely making a distinction (and acting accordingly) between Jews and Gentiles. Even not being "mean" about it, I believe He's still saying "the children are on the inside, the dogs [little dogs/puppies, whatever] (heathens/Gentiles) are on the outside. Seems to me the cross then changed that - for now.
I disagree. The cross changed nothing for the dogs.
What do you mean? IF - IF He was calling Gentiles dogs, i.e., outsiders (and I believe He was) then post-cross the Gospel went to the Gentiles while the Jewish nation (as a whole) are blinded for this age. So in that case, the cross meant the dogs (Gentiles) could be saved.
but maybe you mean something else by 'dogs'.
I know there's more involved, but just from this ONE passage, it indicates to me;
the Jews are the House of Israel, and most all of them were lost [sheep] - spiritually
the Gentiles were not the focus of Jesus' earthly ministry (he initially ignored/rejected the Canaanite/Gentile woman, then said she's not the reason He was there)
after the cross, then the Gospel went to the Gentiles, who were grafted into the olive tree (the House of Israel) by grace
thus the making of one new man - whoever is given the faith to believe on Jesus as Savior - Jew or Gentile (though it's mostly Gentiles right now (until either the end of this age or beginning of the next? when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in) :2c:
In the mind of the Jews there are only 2 types of people. Jews and dogs. Gentile=dog.
(Rev 22:14) Happy are they who wash their robes, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
(Rev 22:15) without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one that loves and makes a lie.
Doesn't that say only Jews live inside the city?
I'd have to research that more, but I don't think the dogs in that scripture can mean the Gentiles who are saved...they have become part of spiritual Israel. :scratchhead:
Looking at the whole thing, as CHB said earlier, through my glass darkly, I don't see this whole Jew/Gentile/lost tribes thing as much literal/geographical, as I do spiritual at this point. Not saying the literal has nothing to do with it, but I'm personally thinking not all,
What if clear lines can't be drawn between who's now part of a certain "tribe" or not, and whether that totally makes them Jew or Gentile? Aren't most people in Israel right now not the original inhabitants, per their lineage, that would have been originally considered the Children of Israel? I think finding a "pure lineage" right now would be difficult, but I may be mistaken. As I said, the history part of it is not a strong point for me. However, my point is, they practice the Jewish religion and still await the Messiah - not seeing that He has come.
Another group ("I have other sheep not of this pasture that I must also bring in") could be talking about all the others - the rest of God's children who are currently "heathens" in all other parts of the world, many never having even heard His name or who have been so brainwashed by their culture and religions - pagan or otherwise - that to believe on Jesus is just not going to happen in this age for most of them. It will only be through a miraculous revealing according to God's timing, when each in his own order is brought in.
I'm not sure about it all, but it seems to me the spiritual aspect (believing on Him or not) has to be taken into account as to "who's who"...
Now that I've said all that, I'm honestly not sure what all I said actually means. :doh: Maybe even if most of it's wrong, there's some good helpful thought in there somewhere! Maybe consider it 'thinking out loud'. :bigGrin:
Quote from: jabcat on December 31, 2011, 12:00:19 PM
I'd have to research that more, but I don't think the dogs in that scripture can mean the Gentiles who are saved...they have become part of spiritual Israel. :scratchhead:
How I understand it.
Everybody has to become "original Jews".
By that I mean Jew according to God's definition. Not the way the pharisees defined being Jew. 613 man-made regulations. Law before love (healing on Sabbath) That sort of thing.
Quoting myself:
Here Jesus is referring to 3 types of sheep.
a] Sheep that are part of His flock and with Him. (very few I think)
b] Sheep that one were part of His flock but are now lost. (majority of Israel)
c] All sheep not being a or b
More to the point:
a] His sheep are Jews by the definition of God.
b] Lost sheep are Jews by definition of the Pharisees, Scribes, etc
c] Not my flock are all other people. The dogs/not my flock.
Quote from: jabcat on December 31, 2011, 12:00:19 PMLooking at the whole thing, as CHB said earlier, through my glass darkly, I don't see this whole Jew/Gentile/lost tribes thing as much literal/geographical, as I do spiritual at this point. Not saying the literal has nothing to do with it, but I'm personally thinking not all,
Define Jew... A Jew must have a Jewish mother. The lost tribes don't have a Jewish mother, so they aren't Jews anymore. Those tribes have become gentiles. For example after 4 centuries of captivity most "Jews" had no clue what being Jew means. They just got the mindset of the country they lived in. Those Jews married people with all sorts of skin color, religion and occupations. I wouldn't be suprised if everyone has drop of Jewish blood aswell as a drop of Nimrod's blood (as an example). The tribes "are" lost. But not in a way that they are hiding somewere. They blended in with other nations. God started with paint of different colors. (the tribes) That paint is now mixed among tribes and with all sorts of gentile paint colors. Those tribes are really gone.
QuoteWhat if clear lines can't be drawn between who's now part of a certain "tribe" or not, and whether that totally makes them Jew or Gentile?
The difference is how they behave. Circumcision is one example of that. The literal one is replaced with the symbolic one. (the heart).
QuoteAren't most people in Israel right now not the original inhabitants, per their lineage, that would have been originally considered the Children of Israel? I think finding a "pure lineage" right now would be difficult, but I may be mistaken.
There might be a few. I think by defenition they wear thick glasses. :gpg:
QuoteAs I said, the history part of it is not a strong point for me. However, my point is, they practice the Jewish religion and still await the Messiah - not seeing that He has come.
I dare to say most Christians didn't see it either. Jesus wants to be seen as a good shepherd. Most Christians think Jesus is a wolf that kills everything outside His tiny flock. (hell).
Can't help to conclude the Christians are
at least 7 times more blinded than the Jews.
QuoteAnother group ("I have other sheep not of this pasture that I must also bring in") could be talking about all the others - the rest of God's children who are currently "heathens" in all other parts of the world,
I think that's true. The obvious questiosn are: Who owns those sheep righ now? What about goats, rhinos and horses. Do they become sheep?
Quote from: jabcat on December 31, 2011, 11:42:07 AMafter the cross, then the Gospel went to the Gentiles, who were grafted into the olive tree (the House of Israel) by grace
"Grafted in" is something that certain scholars can write a whole book about.
I have no green fingers so take the following not to strictly.
Grafted in trees usually produce the best fruit because they combine the best of two worlds.
Usually the tree/trunk is wild. A very strong root system. Because of that it's more immune to none ideal weather conditions. Such, let's say, apple trees often produce poor quality fruit. The quantity isn't high either.
There are (wild) varieties that produce good fruit but die if the weather conditions are a fraction from ideal. Because of that the quantity often is low too. Even the quality is often bad because ideal weather is rare. So that tree is only potentially good.
The trick of grafting in is combining both trees. Strong roots and trunk that guarantee the grafted in apple branches get more food they possibly need in a wide range of weather conditions. So combined we get a very strong tree with lots of quality apples.
BTW the Menorah is a hybrid tree too. Mainly almond tree with grafted in olive tree.
:2c:
Quote from: wwDefine Jew... A Jew must have a Jewish mother. The lost tribes don't have a Jewish mother, so they aren't Jews anymore. Those tribes have become gentiles. For example after 4 centuries of captivity most "Jews" had no clue what being Jew means. They just got the mindset of the country they lived in. Those Jews married people with all sorts of skin color, religion and occupations. I wouldn't be suprised if everyone has drop of Jewish blood aswell as a drop of Nimrod's blood (as an example). The tribes "are" lost. But not in a way that they are hiding somewere. They blended in with other nations. God started with paint of different colors. (the tribes) That paint is now mixed among tribes and with all sorts of gentile paint colors. Those tribes are really gone.
In Jesus' day, a Jew was either the tribe of Judah or a person who lived in Judah. Paul called himself a Jehudite ['Jew'], even though he was tribe of Benjamin, because he lived in Judah. Also, the genealogies in Luke and Matthew are brought down through the father--they are Patriarchal.
You say 'those tribes are really gone' but that doesn't mean they are 'really gone' to God, and since the new covenant was made with the house of Israel, then by definition, those fulfilling it are the house of Israel. Or would God make a promise to one group and then throw them under the bus and give the promises to a totally different group?
I noticed a messianic Jew site that says the promises of Jer 31 and Heb 8 have not yet been given to the church because both house of Judah and house of Israel will receive the promises at the same time--end of age. Obviously, I and most Christians do not agree with that. We feel the church has received the promises to the house of Israel. But it shows a different point of view. The church would say Judah has not yet received the promises because they do not know the Messiah.
Regarding the Canaanite woman who Jesus called a 'dog,' [and Canaanites were considered the lowest of the low by the Jews] don't forget she was proven to have great faith,-- the only one we see with as great or greater faith is the Centurion, also a Gentile. She is one of the ekklesia by virtue of her faith.
Here Jesus flips it, and says the wicked Gentiles of Tyre and Sidon will put the Jews to shame:
"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. [Luke 10:13,14]
ps The Dutch are the tribe of Zebulon according to Yair Davidy. :happygrin:
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2011, 02:17:11 PM
In Jesus' day, a Jew was either the tribe of Judah or a person who lived in Judah. Paul called himself a Jehudite ['Jew'], even though he was tribe of Benjamin, because he lived in Judah. Also, the genealogies in Luke and Matthew are brought down through the father--they are Patriarchal.
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T5039)
JEW, JEWESS, JEWISH
ju, joo, ju'-ish, joo'-ish (yehudhi plural yehudhim; Ioudaioi; feminine adjective yehudhith; Ioudaikos):
"Jew" denotes originally an inhabitant of Judah (2 Kings 16:6 applies to the two tribes of the Southern Kingdom), but later the meaning was extended to embrace all descendants of Abraham. In the Old Testament the word occurs a few times in the singular. (Esther 2:5; 3:4, etc.; Jeremiah 34:9; Zechariah 8:23); very frequently in the plural in Ezra and Nehemiah, Esther, and in Jeremiah and Daniel. The adjective in the Old Testament applies only to the "Jews' language" or speech (2 Kings 18:26,28 parallel Nehemiah 13:24; Isaiah 36:11,13). "Jews" (always plural) is the familiar term for Israelites in the Gospels (especially in John), Acts, Epistles, etc. "Jewess" occurs in 1 Chronicles 4:18; Acts 16:1; 24:24. In Titus 1:14 a warning is given against "Jewish fables" (in Greek the adjective is found also in Galatians 2:14). The "Jews' religion" (Ioudaismos) is referred to in Galatians 1:13,14.
James Orr Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2011, 02:17:11 PM
You say 'those tribes are really gone' but that doesn't mean they are 'really gone' to God, and since the new covenant was made with the house of Israel, then by definition, those fulfilling it are the house of Israel. Or would God make a promise to one group and then throw them under the bus and give the promises to a totally different group?
That reasoning is quite similar to arguments employed by Christian Zionists, dispensationalists, and Messianic Jews, who deny that the church is the true Israel, and their approach tends to ignore or discount what Jesus said, and what Paul said on the matter.
Jesus said, to the woman of Samaria, "Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews." [John 4:22] This gives a very special meaning to the label "Jew." Jesus was called "King of the Jews" when he was crucified.
Paul said, "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." [Romans 2:29]
Paul indicated that only through faith in Jesus can men share in the promises given to Abraham. [2 Corinthians 1:20] He said, in an epistle to the Macedonian Christians in the church at Philippi, "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." [Philippians 3:3]
Paul discouraged people from looking to a literal, fleshly association with Abraham or with the tribes of Israel, as the only connection that counts is by
faith in Jesus. [1 Timothy 1:4] He said he counted his own qualifications, and his own Jewish heritage, as "dung."
"But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:" [Philippians 3:8]
The point is, in the Gospel, race and genealogy counts for nothing. God is the Creator of all men, and has made all men of one blood.
Acts 17:24-27
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Doug
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 31, 2011, 12:52:27 PM
Define Jew... A Jew must have a Jewish mother. The lost tribes don't have a Jewish mother, so they aren't Jews anymore. Those tribes have become gentiles. For example after 4 centuries of captivity most "Jews" had no clue what being Jew means. They just got the mindset of the country they lived in. Those Jews married people with all sorts of skin color, religion and occupations. I wouldn't be suprised if everyone has drop of Jewish blood aswell as a drop of Nimrod's blood (as an example). The tribes "are" lost. But not in a way that they are hiding somewere. They blended in with other nations. God started with paint of different colors. (the tribes) That paint is now mixed among tribes and with all sorts of gentile paint colors. Those tribes are really gone.
:cloud9: My :2c: They were never lost in the way we take that word. They were joined to Him as one in covenant. Their blood was SEEDED into the Gentiles, and like a seed, it will eventually arise and come to maturity and bear fruit = Christ. They were "lost" in the sense of that blood not being visible, because it's underground (planted in earthen vessels). That's why the blessing comes through Isaac, the promised son, as a type.
The oil (blessings) in the menorah flows from the center "stick"(promised son), an almond branch; the other "stick" is "split or cleft" FOR GRAFTING onto = 2 sticks. One of those sticks grafted onto the center almond one (firstfruit/Christ), is an olive branch (Jews), the other a wild olive branch (Gentiles), but both are olives, and before He took them to be the first covenant people, they too were "wild" olives.
This two part "split" pattern is repeated EVERYWHERE in the Word, too numerous to go into here. Thank You Lord for Your mercy. Blessings....
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2011, 02:17:11 PM
Quote from: wwDefine Jew... A Jew must have a Jewish mother. The lost tribes don't have a Jewish mother, so they aren't Jews anymore. Those tribes have become gentiles. For example after 4 centuries of captivity most "Jews" had no clue what being Jew means. They just got the mindset of the country they lived in. Those Jews married people with all sorts of skin color, religion and occupations. I wouldn't be suprised if everyone has drop of Jewish blood aswell as a drop of Nimrod's blood (as an example). The tribes "are" lost. But not in a way that they are hiding somewere. They blended in with other nations. God started with paint of different colors. (the tribes) That paint is now mixed among tribes and with all sorts of gentile paint colors. Those tribes are really gone.
In Jesus' day, a Jew was either the tribe of Judah or a person who lived in Judah. Paul called himself a Jehudite ['Jew'], even though he was tribe of Benjamin, because he lived in Judah.
What about the dispora?
QuoteAlso, the genealogies in Luke and Matthew are brought down through the father--they are Patriarchal.
I think it's not that simple.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3FThere is a difference between bloodlines and the man being the "master of the household."
Maybe not the best example but still shows what I mean. I hope :winkgrin:
In all tribes the males inhertited the status. Male kings. Male priests. etc.
Same for the tribe of Benjamin. But..... only the women in that tribe inherited the power to annoit someone king. It couldn't be done by any member of, for example, the Sanhedrin. That's why Jesus was annoited King by a woman (Mary Magdalena).
I hope you understand the parallel.
QuoteYou say 'those tribes are really gone' but that doesn't mean they are 'really gone' to God, and since the new covenant was made with the house of Israel, then by definition, those fulfilling it are the house of Israel. Or would God make a promise to one group and then throw them under the bus and give the promises to a totally different group?
Who broke the promise? Did God command the Jews to marry with gentile people? I'm sure God has "a fix" for it; but to say they are all Jews.
Simple question. Say I have 1% Jewish blood. Does that make me a decendant of one/several of the tribes?
What about people that have 0% jewish blood? For example those that lived long before there were Jewish tribes.
QuoteI noticed a messianic Jew site that says the promises of Jer 31 and Heb 8 have not yet been given to the church because both house of Judah and house of Israel will receive the promises at the same time--end of age. Obviously, I and most Christians do not agree with that. We feel the church has received the promises to the house of Israel. But it shows a different point of view. The church would say Judah has not yet received the promises because they do not know the Messiah.
The promise is marriage. (?)
That promise can be revoked. God (in the OT) said He divorced Israel.
The Bible also promises Jesus will gather ALL sheep. Promise doesn't equal completion.
The Messianics are wrong because a promise that people will recieve a promise is also a promise. A promise that was given before/at teh foundation of the world when the Lamb was slain.
In general would say Christians need to work on their superiority complex.
Regarding the Canaanite woman who Jesus called a 'dog,' [and Canaanites were considered the lowest of the low by the Jews] don't forget she was proven to have great faith,-- the only one we see with as great or greater faith is the Centurion, also a Gentile. She is one of the ekklesia by virtue of her faith.
Here Jesus flips it, and says the wicked Gentiles of Tyre and Sidon will put the Jews to shame:
"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. [Luke 10:13,14]
Quoteps The Dutch are the tribe of Zebulon according to Yair Davidy. :happygrin:
Can't find much Jewishness in my appearance. Perfect 3rd Reich speciment :winkgrin:
The tribe is small enough to fit in the Netherlands, after kicking out the muslim tribes :winkgrin:
Quote from: Cardinal on December 31, 2011, 03:44:49 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 31, 2011, 12:52:27 PM
Define Jew... A Jew must have a Jewish mother. The lost tribes don't have a Jewish mother, so they aren't Jews anymore. Those tribes have become gentiles. For example after 4 centuries of captivity most "Jews" had no clue what being Jew means. They just got the mindset of the country they lived in. Those Jews married people with all sorts of skin color, religion and occupations. I wouldn't be suprised if everyone has drop of Jewish blood aswell as a drop of Nimrod's blood (as an example). The tribes "are" lost. But not in a way that they are hiding somewere. They blended in with other nations. God started with paint of different colors. (the tribes) That paint is now mixed among tribes and with all sorts of gentile paint colors. Those tribes are really gone.
:cloud9: My :2c: They were never lost in the way we take that word.
I know. But when I read about the lost tribes it's always a geographic thing. Tribe X is now north Europe. Tribe Y is south Europe. Tribe Z lives in Africa. Just like "we" once will find a pure blooded Jewish tribe hiding in the Amazon.
QuoteThey were joined to Him as one in covenant.
That's what grafted in means.
But grafted in also means there is only one tribe because all people will become one big new tree.
QuoteThe oil (blessings) in the menorah flows from the center "stick"(promised son),
Often called the Servant candle. Never noticed the Hanukkah feast has 8 days but 9 candles?
Quotean almond branch; the other "stick" is "split or cleft" FOR GRAFTING onto = 2 sticks. One of those sticks grafted onto the center almond one (firstfruit/Christ), is an olive branch (Jews), the other a wild olive branch (Gentiles), but both are olives, and before He took them to be the first covenant people, they too were "wild" olives.
Are you saying 6 branches are grafted in? Looks a bit that way perhaps but it's all almond. It looks more/also like the olives (cups that burn the oil) are grafted in. Grafting in always means 2 different time combined. at least as far as may botanical knowledge goes.
:cloud9: I'm saying the 6 branches (six the number of man, 1 less than perfect/Christ) of the menorah are 2 branches (one side of the olive) with 3 parts. Lines up with Jeremiah saying that the day would come when 2 women (redeemed of the olives) would cover a man (Christ the center stick). Same split pattern. Also, the 3 on the mount saw the "menorah" in front of them. Blessings....
*There was no country named Israel at the time of Jesus birth* That term could be used at that time to refer to those who remained of the twelve tribes of Israel, or in reference to the twelve tribes of Israel, most of whom were taken into captivity in the 8th C bc and never returned to the promised land.
"The Roman Empire which by the birth of Jesus controlled most present-day countries bordering the Mediterranean basin including North Africa, was still expanding. Territories remaining to be conquered before the Empire of Rome reached its greatest extent under Trajan (emperor AD98-117) included:
Mauretania - present day Morocco and parts of Algeria,
Britannia - Britain,
Dacia - Rumania and part of Hungary,
Armenia, Mesopotamia and Assyria - which includes present day Iraq,
Arabia - modern Jordan.
The works of Greek philosophers such as Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle were widely circulated, and the people of the Roman Empire worshipped a variety of gods. Mithraism - a version of Zoroastrianism - became widespread for a time.
*If you look at the map, what you are calling 'Israel' is called Judea.
At the time of the Roman Empire,
[1] Judea was a small eastern province. Approximately 1,800 years earlier, the patriarch Abraham journeyed there from
[2] Ur of the Chaldees (present-day Iraq), via
[3] Haran to
[4] Canaan. Abraham was the father of Isaac, and grandfather of Jacob.
Jacob's children migrated to Egypt where their younger brother Joseph ("of the coat of many colours") previously sold by them into slavery, had become only second in importance to the Egyptian Pharaoh. Jacob's descendants became the twelve tribes of Israel.
Around 1,200BC, following the Exodus from
[5] Egypt led by Moses and completed by Joshua (of the "battle of Jericho"), Canaan was the "promised land" of the twelve
[6] Tribes of Israel After c 1,000BC, by which time King David and his son Solomon had established a
[7] United Kingdom of Israel and Judah both nations went their separate ways until conquered by other empires.
In c 721BC,
[8] Israel was defeated by the Assyrians and these Jews went into permanent exile. Then in c 587BC,
[9] Judah fell into the hands of the Babylonians, but their exile to
[10] Babylon was temporary. The Babylonians were conquered by the
[11] Persians and the Jews allowed to return to Judea to rebuild
[12] Jerusalem.
By the time of Jesus, most Jews were spread throughout the
[13] Roman and Parthian Empires, but Jerusalem with a new Temple being built by Herod the Great remained central to the Jewish religion.
Jesus of
[14] Nazareth in Galilee was therefore born a Jew, into nearly 2,000 years of Jewish history, religion and culture in the land of Palestine.
4. THE TERRITORIES and RULERS OF PALESTINE
Palestine is a small but varied land, often harsh in character and with a long and complicated history. Understanding something of its physical and political geography helps to explain the volatile situation into which Jesus came and preached, and the terrain over which he travelled.
When Israel in the north ceased to exist in c 721BC, part of the area later became a territory known as Samaria. Most of Judah in the south, defeated in c 587BC, was later referred to as Judea. By the time of Jesus, PALESTINE comprised various territories. From north to south these were:
1. Chalcis and Abilene in the Roman province of Syria, north of ancient Iturea;
2. Iturea, including Panias and Ulatha, and Trachonitis with Batanaea, Gaulanitis (the modern Golan Heights) and Auranitis, all in south eastern Syria. Hereafter, they are referred to as Iturea and Trachonitis;
3. Galilee with the Sea of Galilee in modern northern Israel, which played an important part in the recorded life and ministry of Jesus;
4. Samaria, Judea and Idumea, that is much of modern central Israel plus the west bank of the River Jordan.
The chief city of the Roman rulers was Caesarea on the Mediterranean coast of Samaria. The Jewish capital was Jerusalem in Judea, where Jesus came a number of times, finally to be arrested, tried and crucified by the Jewish and Roman authorities.
5. The semi-independent Decapolis in modern northern Jordan, was a roughly defined area that included within its boundaries, most of the federated "Ten Cities" established by Alexander the Great.
One such city was Philadelphia - modern Amman, capital of Jordan. Other cities, one of which was Damascus, capital of modern Syria, were outside the boundaries;
6. Perea included much of the present east bank of the Jordan.
During New Testament times, these territories were ruled, at various dates in a variety of ways:
- Direct from Rome through Roman province administrators or governors known as procurators;
- Through the Roman governor of Syria, such as The Decapolis; and
- By Roman-appointed Jewish kings, ethnarchs or rulers, and tetrarchs or rulers of a fourth part of a province."
http://www.ccel.org/bible/phillips/CN600NTWORLD.htm
Quote from: Cardinal on December 31, 2011, 03:44:49 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 31, 2011, 12:52:27 PM
Define Jew... A Jew must have a Jewish mother. The lost tribes don't have a Jewish mother, so they aren't Jews anymore. Those tribes have become gentiles. For example after 4 centuries of captivity most "Jews" had no clue what being Jew means. They just got the mindset of the country they lived in. Those Jews married people with all sorts of skin color, religion and occupations. I wouldn't be suprised if everyone has drop of Jewish blood aswell as a drop of Nimrod's blood (as an example). The tribes "are" lost. But not in a way that they are hiding somewere. They blended in with other nations. God started with paint of different colors. (the tribes) That paint is now mixed among tribes and with all sorts of gentile paint colors. Those tribes are really gone.
:cloud9: My :2c: They were never lost in the way we take that word. They were joined to Him as one in covenant. Their blood was SEEDED into the Gentiles, and like a seed, it will eventually arise and come to maturity and bear fruit = Christ. They were "lost" in the sense of that blood not being visible, because it's underground (planted in earthen vessels). That's why the blessing comes through Isaac, the promised son, as a type.
The oil (blessings) in the menorah flows from the center "stick"(promised son), an almond branch; the other "stick" is "split or cleft" FOR GRAFTING onto = 2 sticks. One of those sticks grafted onto the center almond one (firstfruit/Christ), is an olive branch (Jews), the other a wild olive branch (Gentiles), but both are olives, and before He took them to be the first covenant people, they too were "wild" olives.
This two part "split" pattern is repeated EVERYWHERE in the Word, too numerous to go into here. Thank You Lord for Your mercy. Blessings....
THIS ^^^ [from Cardinal]
[as much as I can understand of it :laughing7:]
QuoteThey were joined to Him as one in covenant.
Yes.
QuoteThat's what grafted in means.
But grafted in also means there is only one tribe because all people will become one big new tree.
No
He's not grafting a pear tree to a plum tree.
He's grafting a wild olive tree to a cultuvated olive tree, but they are both the same tree.
House of Israel=Gentiles=wild olive tree.
Quote from: DougThat reasoning is quite similar to arguments employed by Christian Zionists, dispensationalists, and Messianic Jews, who deny that the church is the true Israel, and their approach tends to ignore or discount what Jesus said, and what Paul said on the matter
No, I'm saying the church is the true Israel. And, that all those things that Paul describes were in the Covenant made to the house of Israel in Jer 31.
I'm saying the story is almost complete.
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2011, 04:37:27 PM
THIS ^^^ [from Cardinal]
[as much as I can understand of it :laughing7:]
:cloud9: ???
Quote from: wwCan't find much Jewishness in my appearance. Perfect 3rd Reich speciment
King David was a redhead.
"King David is also known for having red hair, based on the description of his physical appearance as
admoni, the Biblical Hebrew word normally interpreted to mean "ruddy", or "red-haired".[83]"
--Wiki
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2011, 04:37:27 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on December 31, 2011, 03:44:49 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 31, 2011, 12:52:27 PM
Define Jew... A Jew must have a Jewish mother. The lost tribes don't have a Jewish mother, so they aren't Jews anymore. Those tribes have become gentiles. For example after 4 centuries of captivity most "Jews" had no clue what being Jew means. They just got the mindset of the country they lived in. Those Jews married people with all sorts of skin color, religion and occupations. I wouldn't be suprised if everyone has drop of Jewish blood aswell as a drop of Nimrod's blood (as an example). The tribes "are" lost. But not in a way that they are hiding somewere. They blended in with other nations. God started with paint of different colors. (the tribes) That paint is now mixed among tribes and with all sorts of gentile paint colors. Those tribes are really gone.
:cloud9: My :2c: They were never lost in the way we take that word. They were joined to Him as one in covenant. Their blood was SEEDED into the Gentiles, and like a seed, it will eventually arise and come to maturity and bear fruit = Christ. They were "lost" in the sense of that blood not being visible, because it's underground (planted in earthen vessels). That's why the blessing comes through Isaac, the promised son, as a type.
The oil (blessings) in the menorah flows from the center "stick"(promised son), an almond branch; the other "stick" is "split or cleft" FOR GRAFTING onto = 2 sticks. One of those sticks grafted onto the center almond one (firstfruit/Christ), is an olive branch (Jews), the other a wild olive branch (Gentiles), but both are olives, and before He took them to be the first covenant people, they too were "wild" olives.
This two part "split" pattern is repeated EVERYWHERE in the Word, too numerous to go into here. Thank You Lord for Your mercy. Blessings....
THIS ^^^ [from Cardinal]
[as much as I can understand of it :laughing7:]
:cloud9: PS. @ WW.....there were 5 of the 6 branches on the mount. The last branch is being added now. He is the same yesterday (Moses and Elijah), today (3 disciples), and tomorrow (last generation). There were 7 lights, ie. 7 thousand year days (the 7th one is Christ, the Spirit day of the Lord that is no part darkness) are being completed. Christ in us is the light set upon a hill (Mt. Zion) for THIS generation. Blessings.....
Quote from: Cardinal on December 31, 2011, 04:55:17 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2011, 04:37:27 PM
THIS ^^^ [from Cardinal]
[as much as I can understand of it :laughing7:]
:cloud9: ???
You write in a very condensed way, so there is a ton of information condensed into a small space.
I'm never sure I get all of it.
Also, you referenced the two part 'split' pattern being present everywhere in the word, and I'd like to hear more about that.
Nevermind. :laughing7:
[What I understood, I agreed with.]
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2011, 05:06:02 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on December 31, 2011, 04:55:17 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2011, 04:37:27 PM
THIS ^^^ [from Cardinal]
[as much as I can understand of it :laughing7:]
:cloud9: ???
You write in a very condensed way, so there is a ton of information condensed into a small space.
I'm never sure I get all of it.
Also, you referenced the two part 'split' pattern being present everywhere in the word, and I'd like to hear more about that.
Nevermind. :laughing7:
:cloud9: I know, but I can't help it. It's because He speaks in thoughts that are backed up by scriptures. The thought was "split", followed by rapid correlations with scriptures and scenes in the Word. That's how the Spirit teaches. That's why the single Hebrew words are SO important (I sometimes just read the Hebrew concordance part of my Strong's), because words are condensed thoughts and His thoughts are so much higher (in wisdom), than our thoughts. Even the individual letters are thoughts. The thoughts are like the Rock that has to be split to allow the Spirit to be seen. My :2c:
And I have to go now, but will try to get back to this later in the day. Blessings.... :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jabcat on December 31, 2011, 11:42:07 AM
I know there's more involved, but just from this ONE passage, it indicates to me;
the Jews are the House of Israel, and most all of them were lost [sheep] - spiritually
the Gentiles were not the focus of Jesus' earthly ministry (he initially ignored/rejected the Canaanite/Gentile woman, then said she's not the reason He was there)
after the cross, then the Gospel went to the Gentiles, who were grafted into the olive tree (the House of Israel) by grace
thus the making of one new man - whoever is given the faith to believe on Jesus as Savior - Jew or Gentile (though it's mostly Gentiles right now (until either the end of this age or beginning of the next? when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in) :2c:
I agree.
On the item: "the Gentiles were not the focus of Jesus' earthly ministry," Paul said, "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers." [Romans 15:8]
He continues to confirm the promises to the church, those who Paul said have been "circumcised with the circumcision made without hands." [Colossians 2:11]
IMO this fulfills the 70th week of Daniel 9:27, which says "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week." The first half-week was his earthly ministry, and the last half-week is the whole age of the church.
Doug
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2011, 04:43:01 PM
Quote from: wwThat's what grafted in means.
But grafted in also means there is only one tribe because all people will become one big new tree.
No
He's not grafting a pear tree to a plum tree.
He's grafting a wild olive tree to a cultuvated olive tree, but they are both the same tree.
House of Israel=Gentiles=wild olive tree.
Wild and cultivated are diffrent too.
Besides of that it doesn't explain why the menorah is a hybrid tree.
Quote from: Cardinal on December 31, 2011, 05:05:09 PM
:cloud9: PS. @ WW.....there were 5 of the 6 branches on the mount. The last branch is being added now. He is the same yesterday (Moses and Elijah), today (3 disciples), and tomorrow (last generation). There were 7 lights, ie. 7 thousand year days (the 7th one is Christ, the Spirit day of the Lord that is no part darkness) are being completed. Christ in us is the light set upon a hill (Mt. Zion) for THIS generation. Blessings.....
I have no clue what your are talking about.
Quote from: Molly on December 31, 2011, 04:51:51 PM
Quote from: DougThat reasoning is quite similar to arguments employed by Christian Zionists, dispensationalists, and Messianic Jews, who deny that the church is the true Israel, and their approach tends to ignore or discount what Jesus said, and what Paul said on the matter
No, I'm saying the church is the true Israel. And, that all those things that Paul describes were in the Covenant made to the house of Israel in Jer 31.
I'm saying the story is almost complete.
Many people have missed the significance of the following prophecy, where Isaiah said, referring to Judah and Jerusalem, the mountain of the LORD's house will be "established in the top of the mountains," and "exalted above the hills.":
Isaiah 2:1-3
The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.This implies that the people of God will be
displaced vertically. I believe this was fulfilled, in part, when Jesus ascended to heaven, as described in Acts 1, and it occurs continuously, when people repent, and when they are born from above, of the Spirit of God. In spirit, they are raised up; Paul said that "God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:" [Ephesians 2:4-6]
The saints being
raised up together to sit in heavenly places is spiritual, and
this is how Judah and Jerusalem are raised up, higher than all the hills and mountains of the earth, to heaven, as Isaiah foretold. Several prophecies identify the people of God with Israel, and Israel with Judah, and Judah with Jerusalem, and Jerusalem with the tabernacle of David, and with mount Zion, and the temple.
Thus, Paul referred to the church as "the Jerusalem which is above," [Galatians 4:26] and "heavenly Jerusalem," and mount Sion, or Zion. [Hebrews 12:22]
Considering many OT prophecies in the light of Isaiah 2:1-3 provides a very different, and
enlightening perspective on things, IMO.
Doug
Quote from: Doug on December 31, 2011, 05:30:48 PM
Quote from: jabcat on December 31, 2011, 11:42:07 AM
I know there's more involved, but just from this ONE passage, it indicates to me;
the Jews are the House of Israel, and most all of them were lost [sheep] - spiritually
the Gentiles were not the focus of Jesus' earthly ministry (he initially ignored/rejected the Canaanite/Gentile woman, then said she's not the reason He was there)
after the cross, then the Gospel went to the Gentiles, who were grafted into the olive tree (the House of Israel) by grace
thus the making of one new man - whoever is given the faith to believe on Jesus as Savior - Jew or Gentile (though it's mostly Gentiles right now (until either the end of this age or beginning of the next? when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in) :2c:
I agree.
On the item: "the Gentiles were not the focus of Jesus' earthly ministry," Paul said, "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers." [Romans 15:8]
He continues to confirm the promises to the church, those who Paul said have been "circumcised with the circumcision made without hands." [Colossians 2:11]
IMO this fulfills the 70th week of Daniel 9:27, which says "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week." The first half-week was his earthly ministry, and the last half-week is the whole age of the church.
Doug
Interesting, the Colossians connection and the Daniel suggestion...more to think about on the Daniel one.
I also thought this morning, "He came to His own, and His own received Him not". It was the Jews who didn't believe (received Him not) while for the past 2000 years it has been the Gentiles believing (receiving Him). So to me, 'He came to His own and they received Him not' seems one more clue as to who the lost sheep of the House of Israel were/are. :2c:
I thought these articles might be of help.
Just Who Is an Israelite Today?
http://www.askelm.com/prophecy/p041001.htm
Who Are the Northern Ten Tribes of Israel Today?
http://www.askelm.com/prophecy/p900703.htm
CHB
Quote from: jabcat on December 31, 2011, 11:42:07 AM
I know there's more involved, but just from this ONE passage, it indicates to me;
the Jews are the House of Israel, and most all of them were lost [sheep] - spiritually
the Gentiles were not the focus of Jesus' earthly ministry (he initially ignored/rejected the Canaanite/Gentile woman, then said she's not the reason He was there)
after the cross, then the Gospel went to the Gentiles, who were grafted into the olive tree (the House of Israel) by grace
thus the making of one new man - whoever is given the faith to believe on Jesus as Savior - Jew or Gentile (though it's mostly Gentiles right now (until either the end of this age or beginning of the next? when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in) :2c:
I agree with this but I think there is more to the whole thing that Paul came to see but was prevented from teaching it.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on December 31, 2011, 09:58:46 PM
I thought these articles might be of help.
Just Who Is an Israelite Today?
http://www.askelm.com/prophecy/p041001.htm
Who Are the Northern Ten Tribes of Israel Today?
http://www.askelm.com/prophecy/p900703.htm
CHB
CHB I read the first link. Usually I like this guy's writing, but he seems to have an agenda here.
He starts off by saying James is writing to the real 12 tribes who are worshipping in synogogues around the world, in touch with the Temple in Jerusalem.
Well, first of all, James is writing as a Christian, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.
At no time does the Temple acknowledge a persona known as 'the Lord Jesus Christ.' Any synogogue in touch with the Temple would have put James letter in the trash.
Those who remained Jews rejected Jesus. So who is James really writing to? He's writing to Christians.
I guess we could debate whether those Christians are converted 'Jews' or whether he's calling Christians the twelve tribes.
But elm himself admits most of the real twelve tribes did not return.
Then he ignores the prophecy that God will write his laws on the hearts of the house of Israel. Paul confirms this prophecy for the Christian 'gentiles.'
He ignores the prophecy that circumcision is of the heart. Paul confirms this prophecy for the Christian 'gentiles.'
He ignrores the prophecy that the house of Israel will become a multitude of nations that is more numerous than the sands of the sea--the birthright promise handed down from Abraham to Ephraim.
And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. Heb 11:12
What does Paul tell us? This prophecy applies to the Christian 'gentiles.'
Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. Gal 3:7
Elm thinks this prophecy applies to the handful of Jews still existent in the world.
So overall, I give elm a D- for this article. Maybe somebody paid him to write it.
At JAB, Jesus did come to his own and his own rejected him--Jesus was tribe of Judah.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
--John 1
Compare John 1:12,13 with this prophecy from Hosea 1
10Yet
the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that
in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people,
there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God
Quote from: Molly on January 01, 2012, 03:04:00 AM
Quote from: CHB on December 31, 2011, 09:58:46 PM
I thought these articles might be of help.
Just Who Is an Israelite Today?
http://www.askelm.com/prophecy/p041001.htm
Who Are the Northern Ten Tribes of Israel Today?
http://www.askelm.com/prophecy/p900703.htm
CHB
CHB I read the first link. Usually I like this guy's writing, but he seems to have an agenda here.
He starts off by saying James is writing to the real 12 tribes who are worshipping in synogogues around the world, in touch with the Temple in Jerusalem.
Well, first of all, James is writing as a Christian, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.
James was an apostle to the Israelites, never to Gentiles. They all were except Paul and even Paul taught the Jew's in the beginning.
Quote from: Molly
At no time does the Temple acknowledge a persona known as 'the Lord Jesus Christ.' Any synogogue in touch with the Temple would have put James letter in the trash.
What about James 5:14) Is any sick among you? let him call for THE ELDERS OF THE CHURCH. The word Church means ekklesia or assembly, so they were meeting somewhere.
Quote from: Molly
Those who remained Jews rejected Jesus. So who is James really writing to? He's writing to Christians.
I guess we could debate whether those Christians are converted 'Jews' or whether he's calling Christians the twelve tribes.
I would say those were converted Jew's and I believe this is what ELM is saying also.
Quote from: Molly
But elm himself admits most of the real twelve tribes did not return.
Then he ignores the prophecy that God will write his laws on the hearts of the house of Israel. Paul confirms this prophecy for the Christian 'gentiles.'
He ignores the prophecy that circumcision is of the heart. Paul confirms this prophecy for the Christian 'gentiles.'
He ignrores the prophecy that the house of Israel will become a multitude of nations that is more numerous than the sands of the sea--the birthright promise handed down from Abraham to Ephraim.
It is Israel that God is speaking of when he says he will write the laws on their hearts. ELM believes this because I have read most of his articles. It isn't talking about Gentiles when he says I will write the laws on their hearts.
Quote from: Molly
And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. Heb 11:12
What does Paul tell us? This prophecy applies to the Christian 'gentiles.'
Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. Gal 3:7
Elm thinks this prophecy applies to the handful of Jews still existent in the world.
It is the Jew's and not Gentiles that is spoken of here.
Quote from: Molly
So overall, I give elm a D- for this article. Maybe somebody paid him to write it.
You certainly have the right to your own opinion and I respect that.
Quote from: Molly
At JAB, Jesus did come to his own and his own rejected him--Jesus was tribe of Judah.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
--John 1
Compare John 1:12,13 with this prophecy from Hosea 1
10Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God
I don't see the connection.
CHB
Quote from: CHBIt is the Jew's and not Gentiles that is spoken of here.
Quote from: MollyAnd so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. Heb 11:12
What does Paul tell us? This prophecy applies to the Christian 'gentiles.'
Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. Gal 3:7
Elm thinks this prophecy applies to the handful of Jews still existent in the world.
So it is the Jews who have the faith Paul is speaking about and it is the Jews who have become numerous as the stars in the sky and countless as the sand on the seashore?
Where are they all hiding?
The worldwide Jewish population is 13.3 million Jews. Jewish population growth worldwide is close to zero percent. From 2000 to 2001 it rose 0.3%, compared to worldwide population growth of 1.4%.
In 2001, 8.3 million Jews lived in the Diaspora and 4.9 million lived in Israel. Just about half of the world's Jews reside in the Americas, with about 46 percent in North America. (top)
Approximately 37% of worldwide Jewry lives in Israel. Israel's Jewish population rose by 1.6% the past year, while the Diaspora population dropped by 0.5%.
Europe, including the Asian territories of the Russian Republic and Turkey, accounts for about 12 percent of the total. Fewer than 2 percent of the world's Jews live in Africa and Oceania.
Metropolitan Tel Aviv, with 2.5 million Jews, is the world's largest Jewish city. It is followed by New York, with 1.9 million, Haifa 655,000, Los Angeles 621,000, Jerusalem 570,000, and southeast Florida 514,000.
http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/world-jewish-population.htm13 million Jews versus 2.2 billion Christians who also claim Abraham as their father--which group are these verses talking about?
I thought Paul was Apostle to the Gentiles.
Abraham is our father," they answered. "If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do the things Abraham did.--John 8:39
Matthew 18:21 Then Peter having come near to him, said, `Sir, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him--till seven times?'
Matthew 18:22 Jesus saith to him, `I do not say to thee till seven times, but till seventy times seven.
70x7 = 70 weeks?
Quote from: CHB on January 01, 2012, 06:43:15 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 01, 2012, 03:04:00 AM
...
Well, first of all, James is writing as a Christian, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.
James was an apostle to the Israelites, never to Gentiles. They all were except Paul and even Paul taught the Jew's in the beginning.
All the disciples were commissioned by Jesus to preach the Gospel to "all nations." In Matthew's account:
Matthew 28:19-20
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Also in Mark:
Mark 16:15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Matthew also reported Jesus saying the gospel would be preached in all the world, and to all nations. How was that supposed to happen, if they only preached to Jews?
Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
And, John addressed his Apocalypse to the seven churches in Asia.
Revelation 1:4
John to the seven churches which are in Asia:
How could anyone get the idea from reading these scriptures that
only Paul preached to, or wrote to the Gentiles?
John also seems to have accompanied Paul on one of his missionary journeys. [Acts 13:5, 13]
In James 1:1, "the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad" refers to the church. The people of God are those who believe in Christ, and James called them the "twelve tribes," as they are the true Israel. They were "scattered" in those days because of persecution.
Doug
Quote from: DougIn James 1:1, "the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad" refers to the church. The people of God are those who believe in Christ, and James called them the "twelve tribes," as they are the true Israel. They were "scattered" in those days because of persecution.
:thumbsup:
I'm thinking the place where we disagree is that I believe the Christians really are the lost tribes of the house of Israel, whereas you are seeing it more in a metaphorical sense.
Paul tells us that when the rejecting Jews are brought in, who are loved on account of their fathers--then--
all Israel will be saved.For the gifts and calling of God are without repentence. Rom 11:29
Quote from: CHB on January 01, 2012, 06:43:15 PM
...
It is Israel that God is speaking of when he says he will write the laws on their hearts. ELM believes this because I have read most of his articles. It isn't talking about Gentiles when he says I will write the laws on their hearts.
The truth about the Israel that God is speaking of, and what ELM believed and wrote in his articles, might be two quite different things.
Isaiah wrote, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem." [Isa. 2:2-3]
Could this be describing how God will "write His laws on their hearts"? Who does Isaiah say will learn his ways, and walk in his paths? Isaiah is speaking of "all nations" here, not just Israel, or the Jews. They "flow" unto the mountain of the LORD's house, which represents the church, and the kingdom of God, which is established "above the hills." In the New Testament, Jerusalem is said to be "in heaven." It has been "raised up," as Isaiah foretold, above every hill and mountain. This happened, I think, when Jesus ascended to heaven. And nations "flow" to the heavenly city. Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." [John 12:32] So believers from out of the nations are drawn to Jesus, and his holy city, where he reigns as King, upon the throne of David. They are thus "made nigh by the blood of Christ" to "the commonwealth of Israel," and "the covenants of promise." [Ephesians 2:12] This includes the New Covenant, Hebrews 8:8-10.
Doug
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 01, 2012, 07:33:47 PM
Matthew 18:21 Then Peter having come near to him, said, `Sir, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him--till seven times?'
Matthew 18:22 Jesus saith to him, `I do not say to thee till seven times, but till seventy times seven.
70x7 = 70 weeks?
I was thinking this a few weeks ago. The lord could have put in a clue as to the time of his coming, or the time of his wrath, when his patience comes to an end.
Quote from: Molly on January 01, 2012, 08:34:15 PM
Quote from: DougIn James 1:1, "the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad" refers to the church. The people of God are those who believe in Christ, and James called them the "twelve tribes," as they are the true Israel. They were "scattered" in those days because of persecution.
:thumbsup:
I'm thinking the place where we disagree is that I believe the Christians really are the lost tribes of the house of Israel, whereas you are seeing it more in a metaphorical sense.
Paul tells us that when the rejecting Jews are brought in, who are loved on account of their fathers--then--all Israel will be saved.
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentence. Rom 11:29
Yes I do think that the church is
Israel in a spiritual or metaphorical sense.
In Romans 11, Paul says, "Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for." [vs. 7] In your interpretation, that says that the Christians were "the lost tribes of the house of Israel," shouldn't Paul have said this only about "the tribe of Judah"? But he says "Israel." How does your interpretation explain it?
The apostle Peter wrote,
1 Peter 2:9-10
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. How could he refer to them as previously "not a people," if in reality, they were the ten tribes of Israel? I think it seems more reasonable to conclude that Peter wrote to people who had come out of various nations, and had became "an holy nation, a peculiar people" spiritually, though their shared faith in Christ.
Doug
Gentiles Must Become Israelites
If a person wishes to know just what Gospel of Christ belongs to mature Christians today, no chapter is more important to understand than the one we now enter. Certain terms have to be met. It is imperative that we realize that the terms of salvation were when the apostle Peter began to preach the Gospel of Christ on that first Pentecost day after Christ's resurrection from the dead. That message of Peter was fundamentally different from the teaching Christ gave to the Israelites while He was in the flesh.
Peter stated that believing on Christ and in His mission (of dying for humans in their place) would gain a salvation for everyone. Yes, it was now for everyone who would repent of their sins and believe on the name and authority of Jesus Christ to forgive sins. Christ would then give salvation to those believers. Peter said:
"Then Peter said unto them, 'Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.'"
Acts 2:38
A short time later he said,
"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."
Acts 4:12
What is important to realize is that Peter directed the words of his preaching to the Israelites who listened to him teach. He said,
"You men of Israel, hear these words; ... Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God has made that same Jesus, whom you have crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Acts 2:22, 36
At first, this teaching of the Gospel went to Israelites alone (just as Christ Himself directed His teaching while in the flesh to the House of Israel). In this early period, there was no thought by the apostles that Gentiles would be included in the salvation that now became available in Christ. Indeed, the messages of the Gospel both by Christ while in the flesh, and by Peter and the other apostles in the first few years of their ministry, were given solely to those in the House of Israel, who were reckoned by the world as being "Jews."
Now my next statement may be a shock to some people. But all should take it seriously for the statement is absolutely true. It is this. In the first 33 years of teaching the Gospel of Christ Jesus about His death and resurrection now being able to bring people to salvation, that salvation in Christ was ONLY given to people who were of the House of Israel.
Jews within the Roman and Parthian Empires who lived at the time were certainly of the tribe of Judah who were a part of the House of Israel. It meant that salvation could be given to them, but it could not be given to Gentiles IF THEY REMAINED GENTILES! In the 33 years of time that elapsed from Christ's crucifixion in 30 to 63 C.E., it was necessary for all Gentiles who were saved in Christ to become spiritual Israelites. The New Covenant relationship with God was given only to those who were members of the House of Israel and the House of Judah (Jeremiah 31:31–34). Note what the clear word of God states:
"Behold, the days come, says the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was an husband unto them, says the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord': for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
Jeremiah 31:31–34
As clear as God could make it, the New Covenant was to be made only with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. There is not one mention in this New Covenant relationship about participation of Gentiles who were not Israelites. And what did this lack of mention concerning Gentiles mean to the apostle Paul? He made it clear that salvation in Christ could only be given to the children of Israel and no other nation. Note what Paul said in Ephesians chapter 2:
"Wherefore remember [you Gentiles], that you, being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise [both Old and New Covenants], having no hope, and without God in the world."
Ephesians 2:11–12
Paul made it clear in the above statement, which was absolutely true and accurate, that as long as Gentiles remained Gentiles, there was not a hope in the world for them to gain a salvation in Christ. They were those "having no hope." Remember, the Old and New Covenants were made only with the House of Israel and if one was not an Israelite then such persons were "strangers from the covenants of promise. ... and without God in the world." This was a terrible plight for Gentiles to be in, but this was their fate. Simply put, Gentiles could not be saved.
However, there came to be hope, and indeed, even a victory for the Gentiles. A legal was was found that could get Gentiles saved along with the Israelites. This was by grafting Gentiles into the stock of Israel so that they no longer would be reckoned as Gentiles. This was the manner in which Gentiles could be called the children of Abraham and the Israel of God, and be accepted for salvation like the other Israelites. And Paul, in the four epistles to the first three ekklesias (the congregations in Romans, Corinthians and Galatians) taught that all Gentiles who accepted Christ as their personal Savior were now reckoned to be "in Christ" (Romans 12:5, 16:7, 9–10; 1 Corinthians 3:1, 15:22; 2 Corinthians 1:21, 3:14, 5:17; Galatians 3:27). Putting Gentiles "in Christ" gave them an advantage they had not realized before. Since Christ was clearly reckoned in a legal sense to be from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Jacob's name was changed to Israel), then Gentiles now attached to Christ were no longer acknowledged as "Gentiles" in a spiritual sense. They had now become "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16).
"For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you be Christ's, then are you Abraham's seed, and heirs [along with Israelites] according to the promise."
Galatians 3:26–29
Similarly, Paul said in Romans 11:13–36 that the Gentiles being "in Christ" (and Christ was an Israelite in whom there was no guile and a legitimate son of Abraham) made them also to be children of Abraham and Israel as was Christ or any natural born Israelite. And since it was clearly understood by Paul that "all Israel shall be saved" (Romans 11:26), this of necessity included the Gentiles who accepted Christ and were grafted into Israel. Thus, these Gentile converts were no longer reckoned as Gentiles. They were now "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16).
This was how the Gentiles could become partakers of all promises and covenants that pertained to the Israelites. This grafting into the stock of Israel made them able to be heirs of the New Covenant relationship that God was making only with Israel.
A Major Problem Developed with this Concept
While this spiritual teaching that Gentiles were now "in Christ" denominated them as being Israel along with the other Israelites, a question quickly arose concerning the required conduct of these new Israelites. Should they be circumcised as were ordinary Israelites? Should they keep the days, times, seasons, and years that all Jews observed and rejoiced in? Should these new "Israelites" be required to eat the clean foods found in Leviticus chapter 11?
Some Christian authorities, especially those in Jerusalem, felt that if the Gentiles were now going to be acknowledged as "Israelites," then it was only common sense they should adopt the same customs as the Jews. This included circumcision, Sabbath, and holyday keeping, the clean food laws, etc. This matter had to be worked out and we find much argument about it in the Books of Acts and Galatians (along with Second Corinthians chapters 11 and 12). In other words, should the Gentiles (now "Israelites") keep the Law of God revealed in the Old Testament and sustained by Christ while teaching in the flesh, or could the Gentiles be given some kind of special relationship different from ordinary Jews? This was the dilemma. What laws and customs should the Gentiles (now "Israelites") observe?
Before we look at this problem in detail, let us note a fact that many Christians are not aware of and this includes some Christian theologians.
Jews Did Not Need to Keep Parts of the Law in Gentile Areas
It is normally not understood (even by Christian theologians who desire to keep and observe the Law of God ordained in the Old Testament) that the Jews themselves knew they were exempt from keeping certain Laws of God that pertained only to Israelites residing in the Land of Israel (the Land of Canaan). Do you know that the law of TITHING applied only to Jews who lived in the Land of Israel, or in heavily populated areas of Jews around Palestine? Only products from "Israel" were tithable! That's right. Only products from the land of Israel could be tithed.
"And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord's: it is holy unto the Lord."
Leviticus 27:30
Notice the major point about this tithing instruction. It said "All the tithe of the land is the Lord's" This Hebrew word rendered "land" is aretz. At times the word can mean the earth (Genesis 1:1). At other times it is used in regard to a specific land or country (Exodus 3:8, 17). Many times the term, as used in Leviticus 27:30, refers specifically to the land of Israel in Palestine. See Leviticus 19:23, 20:2, 25:10, 18, 26:32. As the Gentile nations were not given tithing laws, and Levites were not instructed to go to the Gentiles and take tithe from them, the term "the land" in Leviticus 27:30 really refers to the Land of Israel. Even for the Jews, tithing was limited only to the Land of Israel and adjacent areas. The Jewish people themselves did not TITHE in foreign lands.
CHB
George Foot Moore, in his work Judaism (one of the recognized authorities on Jewish religion in the time of Christ) had the following to say about the laws of tithing in Leviticus chapter 27:
"All of these applied in the letter of the law only to the land of Israel, however, at any time its boundaries might be defined." 1
Professor Moore went on to point out that the land of Babylon was finally accepted as part of the land of Israel — a "tithable" land — because so many Jews were resident in the area. Egypt was finally accepted as a tithable land. In the earlier time of Joseph, however, Egypt did not pay tithe as shown by the one-fifth produce that was paid to Pharaoh and the four-fifths that went to the people. The lands east of Jordan came to be acknowledged as tithable: Ammon, Moab, and Syria — at least the parts of those lands that David conquered and where many Jews came to live.
Other Gentile lands, on the other hand, such as areas of Asia Minor, Greece, or Italy were not allowed as lands that could produce tithe. The produce of those lands were considered as being impure and not holy enough to support the Levitical priesthood in its function at the Temple. As Alfred Edersheim records, even the very dust of heathen lands was reckoned as defiled and polluted. 2 This is why the tithe was not acceptable from them even though Jews lived in those areas.
In any rate, the strict reading of the law demanded the tithe come only from the land of Israel — which was later interpreted to include those areas east and north of Palestine and Egypt where populations were mainly Jewish. All other areas were proscribed.
This fact about tithing may surprise many Christians, but it is revealed in the Law of God. Many preachers and evangelists know this truth, but fail to tell the laity about it simply because they believe the people could not fund their churches if they were privy to these facts. Guided strictly by the statements of biblical law, it is improper even for Jews to pay tithe on products from Italy, Greece, Asia Minor (Galatia), or in modern times the United States, Britain, or other Gentile lands. See my book The Tithing Dilemma. 3
So, in the Books of Romans, Corinthians, and Galatians the questions of Gentiles tithing never came up because even Jews who lived in those areas did not tithe. Also, the keeping of Sabbatical Years every seventh year, when all agricultural lands had to be idle and not be worked, was not applied even by Jews themselves outside the Land of Israel. Note that Moses told the Israelites to keep Sabbatical Years "when you come into the land which I give you" (Leviticus 25:2). One can imagine how alarmed the apostle Paul was when he found out Galatian Gentiles were observing even the "years" of the Law in the Old Testament (Galatians 4:10). Paul is certainly referring to Sabbatical Years.
Some Law Universally Applied to All Jews
While many laws in the Old Testament were not applicable outside of Palestine (even for Jews), the law of the Sabbath day itself, the food laws and especially circumcision applied to Jews everywhere! It was these universal laws that the early apostles had to deal with in regard to Gentiles who had become "Israelites" by their spiritual attachment to Christ. Should they be required to be circumcised as all Israelites? Should they keep the Sabbath and Holy days like other Jews? Should they keep the food laws, as do the Jews?
It did not take long to settle the issue, but not without major struggles within the Jewish community of Christians. The authorities in Jerusalem finally decided (with the top apostles in quorum), with the intervention of the Holy Spirit, that only four major things were required of these new and adopted "Israelites." They could be released from the onerous burden that ordinary Jews (Israelites) were accustomed to observe. The four restrictions are found in Acts 15:28–29. 4 Paul later referred to this same document (see original Greek in Colossians 2:14). Let us notice that this "handwriting" decreed.
"For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you [Gentiles who were now "Israelites"] no greater burden than these necessary things; That you abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication [promiscuousness]: from which if you keep yourselves, you shall do well. Fare you well."
Acts 15:28–29
Note that keeping of weekly or annual Sabbaths was not reckoned by the Holy Spirit or the apostles assembled at Jerusalem as necessary for Gentiles who were acknowledged as spiritual "Israelites." And too, circumcision in the flesh was not demanded of the men (adults or children). Although meats offered directly to idols and strangled animals were prohibited, other meats that the Gentiles were accustomed to eating were not proscribed and they could eat from the shambles. 5 In fact, God meant the prohibition of certain meats in the Law of Moses as strictly for ritualistic purposes, not for heath reasons, because even a knife or fork touching an "unclean" carcase had to be destroyed even if the utensils were washed in lye soap (Leviticus 11:35). There is not a hint in the Bible that "unclean" meats were meant by God to be avoided for health reasons; and Jews have long known this. 6
Nevertheless some die-hard "law-keepers" among Jewish Christians felt these new "Israelites" should live almost precisely as did the Jews. Some Christians in Rome began to keep certain days of the Jews (no doubt including the Sabbath and holy days along with certain fast days) and Paul had to tell the Roman Christians it was not necessary to keep those days, or for that matter, any days (Romans 14:5–6). Paul was downright upset with the Galatians when they not only retreated into keeping the Law of God meant for minors, such as keeping days, months, and times, but also were starting to keep Sabbaticals Years. Why, not even the Jews in Galatia were required to keep those teachings of the Law (Galatians 4:10).
These matters were constant problems encountered when Gentile Christians came in contact with Jewish Christians. Paul had to inform the Colossians,
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat [eating], or in drink [drinking], or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days."
Colossians 2:16
What these biblical facts show is that God reckoned two types of Israelites on earth. The first were Israelites of the flesh who accepted Christ and the others were newly adopted "Israelites" who were Gentiles in the flesh but now called the "Israel of God" because of being "in Christ." The Gentiles reckoned as Israelites were given duties far less stringent than ordinary Israelites (Jews).
Still, no matter in what segment of "Israel" people found themselves, all were acknowledged by God the Father as "Israelites." They could all now be part of the New Covenant promises. 7 Gentiles could now partake of the emblems of bread and wine established when Christ put the New Covenant into action on the eve of His crucifixion. This was the final teaching of the basic "New Covenant" type of Christianity that one finds in all the early books written by the apostles.
The Revelation of the Mystery
But in 63 C.E., something very different occurred. A brand new revelation came to Paul and other apostles that drastically changed even this "New Covenant type" of Christianity in which all Christians were reckoned as "Israelites." In the next chapter I discuss this most important aspect of Christian doctrine. The apostle Paul called it,
"The mystery of Christ that in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as [the Spirit] now reveals it unto his holy apostles and prophets ... which from the beginning of the world has been hid in God."
Ephesians 3:4–5, 9, paraphrasing
"The mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints."
Colossians 1:26
The apostles only learned this new revelation in the year 63 C.E. This Mystery was never revealed publicly before that year — some 33 years after the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. This glorious teaching represents the mature and final teaching of God and Christ to this world. And, believe it or not, "the Mystery" has nothing to do with the Old Covenant or even the New Covenant. It is something entirely different and glorious!
The Mystery Is a Very Different Teaching
It may be a surprise that anyone would state that "the Mystery" was far different from the teachings of the New Covenant, but this is precisely what the truth of the Gospel is. The final stage of Progressive Revelation was to introduce the most mature doctrines of Christ Jesus, in what Paul called "the Mystery."
I will show in the clearest of language (and it is most important for us to understand) just what "the Mystery" entails and what its grand and glorious promises are. For the present, it is essential that we know the time in history when this new revelation was first given to mankind. The mature doctrines of "the Mystery" came as a revelation to the apostle Paul (and others) about the year 63 C.E. while he was in Spain, probably in the city of Cadiz. All the apostles who received it were surprised at what its teachings actually contained. When one analyzes the differences between the former teaching of the New Covenant with that of "the Mystery," it is amazing just how advanced and profound the improvements are. The most important topic of this book is about the grand and glorious teaching of Christ known as "the Mystery."
This mature teaching is "the Philosophy of Christianity" and it is summed up in what the apostle Paul called "the Mystery" (or, in plain English, "the Secret"). It denotes a marvelous and gracious Secret that was finally dispensed to mankind by Paul and others in the latter part of their ministries. And in spite of what some theologians say, that philosophy has NOTHING to do with the New Covenant. The "Old" and the "New Covenant" were only intermediate phases of spiritual development. They were excellent for their intended time periods, but they do NOT represent the ultimate mature teaching of God. One should look at the plain and simple New Testament teaching called "the Mystery." God teaches this fact primarily in the books to the Ephesians and Colossians. These books are companion letters. They speak about identical matters with different emphasis.
Their main subject is "the Mystery" (Ephesians 3:3), or "the Secret." The legal principle it reveals is defined as being:
"the Mystery of Christ" (verse 4);
"the Mystery of His Will" (1:9);
"the Great Mystery" (5:32 as it is in Greek); or
"the Mystery of God, Christ" (Colossians 2:2)
Before 63 C.E., Paul said the Mystery "has been hid in God" (Ephesians 3:9). God had kept it a secret from the knowledge of anyone (human or angel) even from the foundation of the world — long before the creation of Adam. Paul said, "from the beginning of the world it [the Mystery] has been hid in God" (verse 9). Paul spoke of it as:
"The mystery of Christ which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is NOW revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit."
Ephesians 3:4–5
Paul further stated in the Book of Colossians that this teaching was called
"... the mystery which has been hid from [previous] ages and from [previous] generations, but NOW [63 C.E.] is made manifest to his saints."
Colossians 1:26
This mystery clearly explains what the real Philosophy of Christianity is all about. It is a teaching that is awesome in scope. ELM
Quote from: CHB on January 02, 2012, 12:33:37 AM
Gentiles Must Become Israelites
Peter stated that believing on Christ and in His mission (of dying for humans in their place) would gain a salvation for everyone. Yes, it was now for everyone who would repent of their sins and believe on the name and authority of Jesus Christ to forgive sins. Christ would then give salvation to those believers. Peter said:
"Then Peter said unto them, 'Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.'"
Acts 2:38
A short time later he said,
"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."
However, there came to be hope, and indeed, even a victory for the Gentiles. A legal was was found that could get Gentiles saved along with the Israelites. This was by grafting Gentiles into the stock of Israel so that they no longer would be reckoned as Gentiles. This was the manner in which Gentiles could be called the children of Abraham and the Israel of God, and be accepted for salvation like the other Israelites.
CHB
Good article :thumbsup:
Quote from: CHBIt may be a surprise that anyone would state that "the Mystery" was far different from the teachings of the New Covenant, but this is precisely what the truth of the Gospel is. The final stage of Progressive Revelation was to introduce the most mature doctrines of Christ Jesus, in what Paul called "the Mystery."
I would say the mystery is a part of the New Covenant. It's not a new idea that Paul cooked up in 63 a.d. Maybe that was when it was revealed to him, or more likely, when he decided to reveal it to others, but it is presented as part of the New Covenant in the Old Testament.
God describes it here--
I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; Jer 31:33
and here--
Ezekiel 11:19
And I will give them
one heart, and I will put
a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them
an heart of flesh:and here--
Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
In Eze 44:7 God uses the phrase
uncircumcised in heart...Paul wasn't making this stuff up.
Quote from: Molly on January 02, 2012, 02:10:25 AM
Quote from: CHBIt may be a surprise that anyone would state that "the Mystery" was far different from the teachings of the New Covenant, but this is precisely what the truth of the Gospel is. The final stage of Progressive Revelation was to introduce the most mature doctrines of Christ Jesus, in what Paul called "the Mystery."
I would say the mystery is a part of the New Covenant. It's not a new idea that Paul cooked up in 63 a.d. Maybe that was when it was revealed to him, or more likely, when he decided to reveal it to others, but it is presented as part of the New Covenant in the Old Testament.
God describes it here--
I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; Jer 31:33
and here--
Ezekiel 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
and here--
Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
In Eze 44:7 God uses the phrase uncircumcised in heart...
Paul wasn't making this stuff up.
:thumbsup:
IMO the things Paul said in Ephesians 2:4-7 about God having "raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" were foretold in Isaiah 2:1-3. None of this "replaces" the New Covenant, or means that it has become obsolete.
Here is the link to the book.The article posted was chapter 5.
Doug
Quote from: CHB on January 02, 2012, 12:33:37 AM
[Quoting Ernest L. Martin]
Jews Did Not Need to Keep Parts of the Law in Gentile Areas
It is normally not understood (even by Christian theologians who desire to keep and observe the Law of God ordained in the Old Testament) that the Jews themselves knew they were exempt from keeping certain Laws of God that pertained only to Israelites residing in the Land of Israel (the Land of Canaan). Do you know that the law of TITHING applied only to Jews who lived in the Land of Israel, or in heavily populated areas of Jews around Palestine? Only products from "Israel" were tithable! That's right. Only products from the land of Israel could be tithed.
"And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord's: it is holy unto the Lord."
Leviticus 27:30
Notice the major point about this tithing instruction. It said "All the tithe of the land is the Lord's" This Hebrew word rendered "land" is aretz. At times the word can mean the earth (Genesis 1:1). At other times it is used in regard to a specific land or country (Exodus 3:8, 17). Many times the term, as used in Leviticus 27:30, refers specifically to the land of Israel in Palestine. See Leviticus 19:23, 20:2, 25:10, 18, 26:32. As the Gentile nations were not given tithing laws, and Levites were not instructed to go to the Gentiles and take tithe from them, the term "the land" in Leviticus 27:30 really refers to the Land of Israel. Even for the Jews, tithing was limited only to the Land of Israel and adjacent areas. The Jewish people themselves did not TITHE in foreign lands.
CHB
This point, that "aretz" which is translated "earth" can also mean "land" seems to have escaped Dr. Martin when he read Isaiah 24:1, where most translations have "earth," but Young's Literal Translation puts "land." In 1993, Martin suggested that Isaiah's prophecy foretold "Doomsday," a devastating collision between the earth and a mile-wide asteroid or comet, in an article on The Destruction of the World in Prophecy (http://www.askelm.com/prophecy/p930101.htm). Martin wrote:
It may come as a surprise to some people but the Holy Scriptures describe a time associated with the Second Advent of Christ that any modern day scientist would attest is a classic description of an asteroid or comet of a moderate size (say a mile or so in diameter) hitting the earth. After mentioning that the mercantile system on earth that provides wealth and prosperity is to be destroyed (read all of Isaiah 23 along with the future prophecies in the Book of Revelation about the same thing — Revelation 18:11-17), the prophet Isaiah continued his description of "Doomsday" by his prophecy recorded in all of Isaiah chapter 24. You should read that chapter and pay attention to every word. It shows, without the slightest doubt, the complete and utter destruction of world civilization. The world will return to a barbaric state with only a few men left over the entirety of the earth, and the wide devastation will last for 70 years (Isaiah 23:17,18).Young's Literal Translation gives for Isaiah 24:1, 5 & 6:
1. Lo, Jehovah is emptying the land, And is making it waste, And hath overturned it on its face, And hath scattered its inhabitants.
5. And the land hath been defiled under its inhabitants, Because they have transgressed laws, They have changed a statute, They have made void a covenant age-during.
6. Therefore a curse hath consumed the land, And the inhabitants in it are become desolate, Therefore consumed have been inhabitants of the land, And few men have been left.
This is quite different to the KJV and most other translations where "earth" is used in all cases instead of land. The "land" can be understood spiritually, and its interpretation is suggested in Hebrews 11:16. It represents the eternal, spiritual things promised to the church. Hebrews 3 and 4 indicate that possessing the "land" promised to the
believer is something that involves
belief. And, as in the case of the Israelites in the wilderness, faith is required in order for us to possess the things that the
land represents. This seems to identify the "land," which is a central theme in the OT, with understanding the revelations of God contained in the Scriptures, and perhaps with other similar things that are spiritual in nature.
For an alternative interpretation of the above verses in Isaiah 24, that negates and discredits Martin's
Doomsday prediction, see this post (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2012/01/02/e-l-martins-doomsday-predictions/).
Doug
On this "short and long plan" that is being talked about in this post, Dr. Martin is speculating himself, not that he thought God had two plans. Dr. Martin is just giving two scenarios as to how things MIGHT go. He isn't saying God had two plans.
I do not agree with everything Dr. martin believes but I pray that no one takes anothers word as truth about his articles before reading them for themselves. I have learned this from reading all the pros and cons that people have written about different scholars. They do not always present things the way they really are. I do believe Dr. Martin was given a lot of truth but as I have said many times, I don't believe any one has all of the truth.
CHB
ELM did great research. Obviously not everybody agrees with his conclusions but still there is a lot to learn from him. Especially his historical research. He (almost) never makes unfounded claims. Always truck loads of footnotes and quotes.
:2c:
8Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
9They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
--Jer 31
Israel in this passage stands for the 10 northern tribes of the house of Israel for which Ephraim is the stand-in for all ten tribes.
Why does he call Ephraim his firstborn? Ephraim is actually the second born son of Joseph who received all the birthright blessings from his grandfather, Jacob, including the name and blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel [Jacob].
The New Covenant is made with the house of Israel [Ephraim], not with the house of Judah.
but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Greeks. 1Cor !:23
Quote from: Molly on January 03, 2012, 03:40:37 AM
The New Covenant is made with the house of Israel [Ephraim], not with the house of Judah.
Both the OT and the NT say it is made with the house of Israel,
and with the house of Judah.
Jeremiah 31:31
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Doug
Quote from: Doug on January 03, 2012, 03:48:01 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 03, 2012, 03:40:37 AM
The New Covenant is made with the house of Israel [Ephraim], not with the house of Judah.
Both the OT and the NT say it is made with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.
Jeremiah 31:31
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Doug
Yes, I know he says that in Jer 31:31
But then he goes on to only specify the covenant with the house of Israel.
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with
the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
--Jer 31
So how do you read this? Why does he leave out the house of Judah in these specific covenant blessings given to the house of Israel in Jer 33?
Is it because the house of Judah will receive them at a different time?
We see what is come upon the house of Judah [in general] in other passages--during this age--
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. Mat 13:14
What's more, the house of Judah, [those who call themselves Jews]. do not acknowledge a New Covenant themselves.
Quote from: CHB on January 03, 2012, 01:48:05 AM
On this "short and long plan" that is being talked about in this post, Dr. Martin is speculating himself, not that he thought God had two plans. Dr. Martin is just giving two scenarios as to how things MIGHT go. He isn't saying God had two plans.
I do not agree with everything Dr. martin believes but I pray that no one takes anothers word as truth about his articles before reading them for themselves. I have learned this from reading all the pros and cons that people have written about different scholars. They do not always present things the way they really are. I do believe Dr. Martin was given a lot of truth but as I have said many times, I don't believe any one has all of the truth.
CHB
Well said and a great response! Glory! and Amen!
Ephraim is my firstborn Jer 31:9
What does it mean?
"firstborn"
From H1069
בּכר
bâkar
baw-kar'
A primitive root; properly to burst the womb, that is, (causatively) bear or make early fruit (of woman or tree); also (as denominatively from H1061) to give the birthright: - make firstborn, be firstling, bring forth first child (new fruit).
firstborn; hence chief: - eldest (son), first-born (-ling).
Quote from: CHB on January 03, 2012, 01:48:05 AM
On this "short and long plan" that is being talked about in this post, Dr. Martin is speculating himself, not that he thought God had two plans. Dr. Martin is just giving two scenarios as to how things MIGHT go. He isn't saying God had two plans.
I do not agree with everything Dr. martin believes but I pray that no one takes anothers word as truth about his articles before reading them for themselves. I have learned this from reading all the pros and cons that people have written about different scholars. They do not always present things the way they really are. I do believe Dr. Martin was given a lot of truth but as I have said many times, I don't believe any one has all of the truth.
CHB
It seems to me that to understand that Isaiah 24 is not a prophecy about a terrible disaster such as a one mile in diameter asteroid or comet imacting with the earth resulting in the deaths of billions of people ought to be quite a relief. Believing as he did, Martin must have felt burdened with a heavy responsibility, and frustrated because few people would take such an interpretation seriously. I suppose it likely robbed him of much peace, in his last years. And frankly, those claims would make him seem like a crack-pot, in the eyes of other scholars, which must have been vexing to him.
The fact that there is a fresh, and much more happy interpretation of the prophecy should make his followers delighted, I would think.
Doug
Quote from: Molly on January 03, 2012, 04:52:34 AM
Ephraim is my firstborn Jer 31:9
What does it mean?
"firstborn"
From H1069
בּכר
bâkar
baw-kar'
A primitive root; properly to burst the womb, that is, (causatively) bear or make early fruit (of woman or tree); also (as denominatively from H1061) to give the birthright: - make firstborn, be firstling, bring forth first child (new fruit).
firstborn; hence chief: - eldest (son), first-born (-ling).
Could it have something to do with this: ?
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but
of God.--John 1
Quote from: Molly on January 03, 2012, 04:52:34 AM
Ephraim is my firstborn Jer 31:9
What does it mean?
"firstborn"
From H1069
בּכר
bâkar
baw-kar'
A primitive root; properly to burst the womb, that is, (causatively) bear or make early fruit (of woman or tree); also (as denominatively from H1061) to give the birthright: - make firstborn, be firstling, bring forth first child (new fruit).
firstborn; hence chief: - eldest (son), first-born (-ling).
I think a lexicon won't answer your question because Ephraim is the second.
Manasseh was replaced by Ephraim.
Quote from: Doug on January 03, 2012, 05:24:11 AM
Quote from: CHB on January 03, 2012, 01:48:05 AM
On this "short and long plan" that is being talked about in this post, Dr. Martin is speculating himself, not that he thought God had two plans. Dr. Martin is just giving two scenarios as to how things MIGHT go. He isn't saying God had two plans.
I do not agree with everything Dr. martin believes but I pray that no one takes anothers word as truth about his articles before reading them for themselves. I have learned this from reading all the pros and cons that people have written about different scholars. They do not always present things the way they really are. I do believe Dr. Martin was given a lot of truth but as I have said many times, I don't believe any one has all of the truth.
CHB
It seems to me that to understand that Isaiah 24 is not a prophecy about a terrible disaster such as a one mile in diameter asteroid or comet imacting with the earth resulting in the deaths of billions of people ought to be quite a relief. Believing as he did, Martin must have felt burdened with a heavy responsibility, and frustrated because few people would take such an interpretation seriously. I suppose it likely robbed him of much peace, in his last years. And frankly, those claims would make him seem like a crack-pot, in the eyes of other scholars, which must have been vexing to him.
The fact that there is a fresh, and much more happy interpretation of the prophecy should make his followers delighted, I would think.
Doug
Doug, Dr. martin understood that everything is in the hands of God and he was not burdened, vexed, frustrated, or any of those things. This I am pretty sure of. I do know that he was saddened by the fact that most did not understand about the salvation of all but still he knew it was all up to God.
I personally do not know whether there will be an astroid that will destroy most of the earth in the future, I pray there isn't but who knows for sure? There has been speculation in other areas as to this event. It would account for the verses in Revelation chapter 8. If this hasn't already happened then I believe it is yet in the future, or else the Bible is wrong and I believe prophecy will happen just as the Bible says it will.
CHB
Quote from: Molly on January 03, 2012, 03:56:55 AM
Quote from: Doug on January 03, 2012, 03:48:01 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 03, 2012, 03:40:37 AM
The New Covenant is made with the house of Israel [Ephraim], not with the house of Judah.
Both the OT and the NT say it is made with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.
Jeremiah 31:31
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Doug
Yes, I know he says that in Jer 31:31
But then he goes on to only specify the covenant with the house of Israel.
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
--Jer 31
So how do you read this? Why does he leave out the house of Judah in these specific covenant blessings given to the house of Israel in Jer 33?
Is it because the house of Judah will receive them at a different time?
We see what is come upon the house of Judah [in general] in other passages--during this age--
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. Mat 13:14
The question about whether or not inheriting the blessings of God is connected with one's order of birth, race, or ethnic background is addressed in the history of the Israelites and of Edom. Edom is a name for the descendants of Esau, Jacob's brother. Technically, Edom was the firstborn, but Jacob usurped him, obtaining the birthright and the blessing by stealth.
Before they were born, their mother learned that they represent two nations, and two manner of people.
Genesis 25:21-26
21 And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.
22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
24 And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb.
25 And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau.
26 And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them.
After Jacob received the blessing from Isaac, he was hated by Esau.
Genesis 27:41
And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob.
Centuries later, when the Israelites were in the wilderness, Balaam gave a prophecy that said Edom would eventually be a possession of Israel.
Numbers 24:17-20
there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.
And Edom shall be a possession, Seir also shall be a possession for his enemies; and Israel shall do valiantly.
Out of Jacob shall come he that shall have dominion, and shall destroy him that remaineth of the city.
And when he looked on Amalek, he took up his parable, and said, Amalek was the first of the nations; but his latter end shall be that he perish for ever.
In Isaiah, other prophecies speak of God's judgments falling upon Edom. Idumea was another name for Edom or Esau.
Isaiah 34:5-6
5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
Ezekiel also records similar prophecies.
Ezekiel 35:15
As thou didst rejoice at the inheritance of the house of Israel, because it was desolate, so will I do unto thee: thou shalt be desolate, O mount Seir, and all Idumea, even all of it: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
Ezekiel 36:5
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.
The book of Obadiah is all about Edom. It predicts the complete destruction of the house of Esau.
Obadiah 1:18
And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it.
In Malachi, Esau is said to be hated.
Malachi 1:3
And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
This is quoted in the NT.
Romans 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
It seems the whole concept of inheriting God's blessings because of birth is represented by Esau. Eventually they disappeared after becoming Jews. They were assimilated in the Jewish race. Today they are nowhere to be found.
OTOH, the covenant people become Israelites and inherit the promises, not by any ethnic connection, but by faith in Christ. This, I think, is the meaning behind the revelation given to Rebekah that her children represent two manner of people.
One is a type of those who hope to inherit by right of birth, and the other, Jacob, represents those who obtain the blessing, by grace, and faith in Christ.
Doug
Quote from: DougThe question about whether or not inheriting the blessings of God is connected with one's order of birth, race, or ethnic background is addressed in the history of the Israelites and of Edom.
I would disagree. The question is about the order in which the blessings are received and by whom, not whether or not anyone receives them.
Who, what, where , when.
I'm just looking at what the text says about the house of Judah and the house of Israel.
A prophecy is made in Jer 31 and elsewhere in the OT about the house of Israel [the northern ten tribes].
Is it a coincidence that this prophecy proves to apply in fact to the 'gentiles'?
I don't think it's a coincidence at all.
It tells us who the 'gentile' elect really are and it confirms God's prophecy which was not made to a spiritual people but to a real people.
It ties the Old and New Covenants together in a way that makes sense.
Israel was always the elect of God, chosen before the foundation of the world.
Then why would these upstart, no name gentiles, appear out of nowhere to scoop up the promises made to another people?
They wouldn't and they didn't. They were always the people of God. They were just 'lost' and 'hidden' for a while as they were planted among all the nations of the world.
Obadiah 1:18
And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it.
Edom is the same word as Adam. I think this is showing the glorious resurrection of the new man destroying the old man Adam.
Quote from: CHB on January 03, 2012, 04:01:57 PM
Quote from: Doug on January 03, 2012, 05:24:11 AM
Quote from: CHB on January 03, 2012, 01:48:05 AM
On this "short and long plan" that is being talked about in this post, Dr. Martin is speculating himself, not that he thought God had two plans. Dr. Martin is just giving two scenarios as to how things MIGHT go. He isn't saying God had two plans.
I do not agree with everything Dr. martin believes but I pray that no one takes anothers word as truth about his articles before reading them for themselves. I have learned this from reading all the pros and cons that people have written about different scholars. They do not always present things the way they really are. I do believe Dr. Martin was given a lot of truth but as I have said many times, I don't believe any one has all of the truth.
CHB
It seems to me that to understand that Isaiah 24 is not a prophecy about a terrible disaster such as a one mile in diameter asteroid or comet imacting with the earth resulting in the deaths of billions of people ought to be quite a relief. Believing as he did, Martin must have felt burdened with a heavy responsibility, and frustrated because few people would take such an interpretation seriously. I suppose it likely robbed him of much peace, in his last years. And frankly, those claims would make him seem like a crack-pot, in the eyes of other scholars, which must have been vexing to him.
The fact that there is a fresh, and much more happy interpretation of the prophecy should make his followers delighted, I would think.
Doug
Doug, Dr. martin understood that everything is in the hands of God and he was not burdened, vexed, frustrated, or any of those things. This I am pretty sure of. I do know that he was saddened by the fact that most did not understand about the salvation of all but still he knew it was all up to God.
I personally do not know whether there will be an astroid that will destroy most of the earth in the future, I pray there isn't but who knows for sure? There has been speculation in other areas as to this event. It would account for the verses in Revelation chapter 8. If this hasn't already happened then I believe it is yet in the future, or else the Bible is wrong and I believe prophecy will happen just as the Bible says it will.
CHB
For me, it's like anything . .and everything else that Scripture assumingly may or may not be saying. It's all based on the perspective of our relationship with the Father. Only the Father reveals the nature of his very being, which is FAR above and beyond any man's point of views. It seems to boil down to the idea that it's not a matter of "if" the world is going to be destroyed and everyone in it . . .but "when". I'm not speaking from this forum's point of view, I speak from conventional wisdom within the mainline church's point of view. The assumption is, because our 'INTERPRETATION" of what we THINK Scripture is implying has not yet happened it, then it "must" be yet another unfulfilled prophecy yet to come.
Not to offend, but in my eyes, conclusions such as this are not deriving from personal revelation as much as they are from personal observations. It's based on the "reasoning" that in our eyes, these things haven't literally happened to the earth so they "must" be something that's yet to happen . . .that's "logic" talking, not spiritual wisdom. If we truly understood the nature of Love, then we'd also know that Love is not going to destroy the very beings He created, cherishes, died for, and actually has his very DNA in. We are his craftsmenship. It is the minds of men that have instilled the fear of total destruction. I can speak with great certainty, regardless of how many people believe otherwise, that God is not going to destroy this earth, or the inhabitants on it. It may sound over the top, but no more than those who profess the world is coming to an end.
Love is not the destroyer of it's very own creation.
Quote from: Nathan on January 03, 2012, 06:02:22 PM
Quote from: CHB on January 03, 2012, 04:01:57 PM
Quote from: Doug on January 03, 2012, 05:24:11 AM
Quote from: CHB on January 03, 2012, 01:48:05 AM
On this "short and long plan" that is being talked about in this post, Dr. Martin is speculating himself, not that he thought God had two plans. Dr. Martin is just giving two scenarios as to how things MIGHT go. He isn't saying God had two plans.
I do not agree with everything Dr. martin believes but I pray that no one takes anothers word as truth about his articles before reading them for themselves. I have learned this from reading all the pros and cons that people have written about different scholars. They do not always present things the way they really are. I do believe Dr. Martin was given a lot of truth but as I have said many times, I don't believe any one has all of the truth.
CHB
It seems to me that to understand that Isaiah 24 is not a prophecy about a terrible disaster such as a one mile in diameter asteroid or comet imacting with the earth resulting in the deaths of billions of people ought to be quite a relief. Believing as he did, Martin must have felt burdened with a heavy responsibility, and frustrated because few people would take such an interpretation seriously. I suppose it likely robbed him of much peace, in his last years. And frankly, those claims would make him seem like a crack-pot, in the eyes of other scholars, which must have been vexing to him.
The fact that there is a fresh, and much more happy interpretation of the prophecy should make his followers delighted, I would think.
Doug
Doug, Dr. martin understood that everything is in the hands of God and he was not burdened, vexed, frustrated, or any of those things. This I am pretty sure of. I do know that he was saddened by the fact that most did not understand about the salvation of all but still he knew it was all up to God.
I personally do not know whether there will be an astroid that will destroy most of the earth in the future, I pray there isn't but who knows for sure? There has been speculation in other areas as to this event. It would account for the verses in Revelation chapter 8. If this hasn't already happened then I believe it is yet in the future, or else the Bible is wrong and I believe prophecy will happen just as the Bible says it will.
CHB
For me, it's like anything . .and everything else that Scripture assumingly may or may not be saying. It's all based on the perspective of our relationship with the Father. Only the Father reveals the nature of his very being, which is FAR above and beyond any man's point of views. It seems to boil down to the idea that it's not a matter of "if" the world is going to be destroyed and everyone in it . . .but "when". I'm not speaking from this forum's point of view, I speak from conventional wisdom within the mainline church's point of view. The assumption is, because our 'INTERPRETATION" of what we THINK Scripture is implying has not yet happened it, then it "must" be yet another unfulfilled prophecy yet to come.
Not to offend, but in my eyes, conclusions such as this are not deriving from personal revelation as much as they are from personal observations. It's based on the "reasoning" that in our eyes, these things haven't literally happened to the earth so they "must" be something that's yet to happen . . .that's "logic" talking, not spiritual wisdom. If we truly understood the nature of Love, then we'd also know that Love is not going to destroy the very beings He created, cherishes, died for, and actually has his very DNA in. We are his craftsmenship. It is the minds of men that have instilled the fear of total destruction. I can speak with great certainty, regardless of how many people believe otherwise, that God is not going to destroy this earth, or the inhabitants on it. It may sound over the top, but no more than those who profess the world is coming to an end.
Love is not the destroyer of it's very own creation.
That a noble hope, but the scriptures speak a lot concerning that God does destroy. I think we have difficulty understanding that God causes evil and so try to reason what else could it mean.
My hope is that mankind will repent enough, so that God does not have to take drastic measures to destroy them that destroy the earth.
Old covenant . . . It was "type and shadow". New covenant replaces . . .it doesn't add to the existing old covenant, it replaced it. Love conquers all, grace is sufficient. Loving the enemy is the code of conduct of the New Covenant. Destroying the enemy was the old covenant. The only man being destroyed in the New Covenant is the one in each and every one of us.
As to God hating Esau . . .everything is type and shadow. Esau depicts the carnal man in us, Jacob depicts the anointed man. If you read the stories about them, neither of them were walking in perfection in the natural sense. But God doesn't measure by what is seen. Christ is the only plumb line he uses to measure us with. Resurrection . . .freedom . . .everlasting life . . . we go by inches, feet and yards .. .God goes by Resurrection, freedom and everlasting life . . .the further you go in your relationship with God, the deeper the redemptive nature of his being goes.
Scripture illuminates the relationship between God and man by using the characters of men. We emphasize the actual men rather than the inner workings of man in us. As a result, our message becomes tainted with hints of fear and sorrows rather than light and life. There is no life in a message that depicts the destruction of either men or their habitat. But when we apply that destruction to "man" and not "men" then the result is one of celebration and jubilation rather than condemnation and manipulation.
The usage of the destruction principle is really religion's manipulation to motivate people to it's conforming ways. When you hear about the church's version of end times, what kinds of emotion does that invoke in you? What kinds of emotion does that invoke in the unbelievers? Line up your answer with the answer to "this" . . . what kind of emotion did Jesus stir up in the unbelievers who heard "his" message? His message attracted the lost . . .the church's message repels the lost. His message instilled hope and celebration, the church's message instills fear and isolation.
Does the message of "end times destruction" bring about celebration and hope? Or does it bring about fear and darkness?
"Well, it depends on whether or not you believe in God . . ." That doesn't work for me . . . the message Jesus brought was to those who "didn't" believe in God. He didn't use fear tactics. He didn't bring his message of life with the threats of death and destruction. If we have that same light in us, then why would we embrace a message that doesn't have the same affects as what Jesus' message had?
Knowledge has crept in and taken the ruling reigns of men's hearts instead of life received through faith.
Nathan, what about the earthquake in Japan, the tsunami, tornadoes, and other happenings? You think God didn't have anything to do with those?
CHB
God destroys the man in us, via the lake of fire, so that all are purified.
But in this age there is death and wars.
The problem is we hold onto this life and do not wish to see it destroyed, we have trouble letting go.
Quote from: CHB on January 03, 2012, 04:01:57 PM
Doug, Dr. martin understood that everything is in the hands of God and he was not burdened, vexed, frustrated, or any of those things. This I am pretty sure of. I do know that he was saddened by the fact that most did not understand about the salvation of all but still he knew it was all up to God.
If the teaching about the ultimate salvation of all is coupled with a doomsday message about an asteroid impact, that wipes out most of humanity, it seems a bit like trying to light a candle, in the midst of a hurricane.
The New Covenant was foretold by the prophets Jeremiah and Ezekiel several centuries before Jesus came to establish it. Martin's claim that it was to last for only a few decades, and that it was then replaced by the "mystery," does not inspire one with any confidence. Such a claim needs to be supported by notable miracles. The New Covenant is said to be "everlasting." [Hebrews 13:20]
Jeremiah 32:40
And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
Ezekiel 37:26
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Doug
Quote from: CHB on January 03, 2012, 08:17:38 PM
Nathan, what about the earthquake in Japan, the tsunami, tornadoes, and other happenings? You think God didn't have anything to do with those?
CHB
I think God shows up when people call on him. But I don't think he brings in chaos and destruction . . .seriously . . .what "is" God's nature? It's that age-old question "Why do bad things happen to good people?" The church puts out this vibe that if you become a Christian, life will be bliss forever more. But they seem to leave out the part that even Jesus stated "IN THIS WORLD . . you will have trials and tribulation . . ." The fact that THIS WORLD has wars and hurricanes has nothing to do with whether God sends them or not. It's not about the tribulations because IN THIS WORLD . . that's what THIS WORLD consists of. This is a world of death and decay . . .our bodies are influenced by that. Try as we will, we'll never be able to stop the process of death to these bodies we live in. The emphasis isn't on the manifestations of death, it's on the fact that Christ as overcome it all. When we pursue Christ, the miracle happens. We become illuminating life in the middle of a realm of death.
So, as to all the terrible things happening around us . . .no, I don't believe God sent any of it. I believe that is merely the nature of the realm that we live in. Every GOOD THING comes from above. The things God DOES send are things that induce life. There is no darkness in him, so why would we assume that darkness around us comes from him? There was a reason why he told Adam not to eat of that tree . . .it was the gateway into the realm in which we live. That's a whole other thread.
Quote from: thinktank on January 03, 2012, 08:18:02 PM
God destroys the man in us, via the lake of fire, so that all are purified.
But in this age there is death and wars.
The problem is we hold onto this life and do not wish to see it destroyed, we have trouble letting go.
I don't argue that this world is going to be changed. My argument is that this world is not going to be destroyed. I think that which is now predominantly natural will return to it's rightful place and become a secondary realm, giving way to that which is spiritual. Never said I was trying to "hang on" to this life. I'm just saying God isn't going to destroy it like we've been taught.
If the teaching about the ultimate salvation of all is coupled with a doomsday message about an asteroid impact, that wipes out most of humanity, it seems a bit like trying to light a candle, in the midst of a hurricane.
I whole-heartedly agree!!! I've often been a bit bewildered at some of the responses in the past on this forum pertaining to these kinds of things where many agree that God saved the whole world, but yet embrace many of the same teachings the ET'ers embrace when addressing things like the books of Daniel and Revelation and such . . .hanging on to that "end of the world destruction" idealism just seems to contradict the life message that comes from the far-reaching affects that Jesus brought to the world in the first place.
what about "I form the light and the darkness I create peace and calamity (evil) I the lord do all these things?"
Quote from: Nathan on January 03, 2012, 09:58:48 PM
. . .hanging on to that "end of the world destruction" idealism just seems to contradict the life message
I would not call Dr. Martin's approach "idealism." It was, I think, more a "futurist" approach, and one that required the identification of biblical nations and peoples with literal nations and peoples existing today. This was probably a big motivating factor in his work.
In
Idealism the biblical nations need not represent specific literal nations in the modern world, but they are symbolic and spiritual. The "Sodom and Egypt" of Revelation 11:8 are examples. Also Babylon in Revelation 17. Martin, on the other hand, said that the literal Babylon in Iraq would be rebuilt. But there is little evidence that this is about to happen.
Doug
Quote from: Nathan on January 03, 2012, 09:58:48 PM
If the teaching about the ultimate salvation of all is coupled with a doomsday message about an asteroid impact, that wipes out most of humanity, it seems a bit like trying to light a candle, in the midst of a hurricane.
I whole-heartedly agree!!! I've often been a bit bewildered at some of the responses in the past on this forum pertaining to these kinds of things where many agree that God saved the whole world, but yet embrace many of the same teachings the ET'ers embrace when addressing things like the books of Daniel and Revelation and such . . .hanging on to that "end of the world destruction" idealism just seems to contradict the life message that comes from the far-reaching affects that Jesus brought to the world in the first place.
This is the gospel message in its entirety. I think UR attracts peace minded individuals and so tend to sway to much towards peace and safety, when the bible says otherwise. I don't think UR will ever be taken seriously if most of the individuals do not take the rest of scriptures seriously, the book of revelation, the book of Daniel, the book of Peter, Isiah some of Pauls writings, these are entire books dedicated towards the end times and the coming of Jesus Christ.
The asteroid impact does not wipe away all of mankind, it destroys 1 third. Jesus should protect those nations and cities which are saved.
7The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
10And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Quote from: Nathan on January 03, 2012, 09:52:21 PM
Quote from: CHB on January 03, 2012, 08:17:38 PM
Nathan, what about the earthquake in Japan, the tsunami, tornadoes, and other happenings? You think God didn't have anything to do with those?
CHB
I think God shows up when people call on him. But I don't think he brings in chaos and destruction . . .seriously . . .what "is" God's nature? It's that age-old question "Why do bad things happen to good people?" The church puts out this vibe that if you become a Christian, life will be bliss forever more. But they seem to leave out the part that even Jesus stated "IN THIS WORLD . . you will have trials and tribulation . . ." The fact that THIS WORLD has wars and hurricanes has nothing to do with whether God sends them or not. It's not about the tribulations because IN THIS WORLD . . that's what THIS WORLD consists of. This is a world of death and decay . . .our bodies are influenced by that. Try as we will, we'll never be able to stop the process of death to these bodies we live in. The emphasis isn't on the manifestations of death, it's on the fact that Christ as overcome it all. When we pursue Christ, the miracle happens. We become illuminating life in the middle of a realm of death.
So, as to all the terrible things happening around us . . .no, I don't believe God sent any of it. I believe that is merely the nature of the realm that we live in. Every GOOD THING comes from above. The things God DOES send are things that induce life. There is no darkness in him, so why would we assume that darkness around us comes from him? There was a reason why he told Adam not to eat of that tree . . .it was the gateway into the realm in which we live. That's a whole other thread.
I could give a dozen scriptures showing otherwise but I know you wouldn't be convinced so I won't even try.
You said the cause of all of the disasters "is the nature of the realm that we live in". Pray tell, where do you think this realm originated from? If from him and to him are ALL things how can you eliminate the realm.
CHB
Quote from: Doug
The New Covenant was foretold by the prophets Jeremiah and Ezekiel several centuries before Jesus came to establish it. Martin's claim that it was to last for only a few decades, and that it was then replaced by the "mystery," does not inspire one with any confidence. Such a claim needs to be supported by notable miracles. The New Covenant is said to be "everlasting." [Hebrews 13:20]
First off, Dr. Martin did not believe that this world would be completely destroyed.
A Covenant is an agreement between two parties, it has do's and don'ts attached to it. The New Covenant was only between God, Israel and Judah. No where does it say God made a Covenant with Gentiles, old or new. The word "everlasting" means age.
CHB
Quote from: DougThe New Covenant was foretold by the prophets Jeremiah and Ezekiel several centuries before Jesus came to establish it.
Jeremiah 32:40
And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
Ezekiel 37:26
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
:thumbsup:
This is so wonderful.
But, don't you think it is the same everlasting covenant made with Abraham?
It was always to be based on the grace of God.
No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. Gen 17:5
Nations means Gentiles.
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
--Heb 11
Quote from: thinktank on January 03, 2012, 11:29:32 PMThis is the gospel message in its entirety. I think UR attracts peace minded individuals and so tend to sway to much towards peace and safety, when the bible says otherwise. I don't think UR will ever be taken seriously if most of the individuals do not take the rest of scriptures seriously, the book of revelation, the book of Daniel, the book of Peter, Isiah some of Pauls writings, these are entire books dedicated towards the end times and the coming of Jesus Christ.
The asteroid impact does not wipe away all of mankind, it destroys 1 third. Jesus should protect those nations and cities which are saved.
7The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
10And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
(Rev 1:3) Happy he that reads, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep the things written therein; for the time is at hand.
http://hellbusters.8m.com/revelcontents.html
Be patient. It's a very slow site.
Quote from: CHB on January 03, 2012, 11:45:38 PMYou said the cause of all of the disasters "is the nature of the realm that we live in".
:thumbsup:
QuotePray tell, where do you think this realm originated from? If from him and to him are ALL things how can you eliminate the realm.
The get-God-of-the-hook syndrome.
Quote from: Molly on January 04, 2012, 12:00:12 AM
Quote from: DougThe New Covenant was foretold by the prophets Jeremiah and Ezekiel several centuries before Jesus came to establish it.
Jeremiah 32:40
And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
Ezekiel 37:26
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
:thumbsup:
This is so wonderful.
But, don't you think it is the same everlasting covenant made with Abraham?
It was always to be based on the grace of God.
Yes, I think it is the same. Paul called the promise to Abraham the Gospel. [Galatians 3:8]
Doug
Quote from: Doug on January 04, 2012, 12:33:40 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 04, 2012, 12:00:12 AM
Quote from: DougThe New Covenant was foretold by the prophets Jeremiah and Ezekiel several centuries before Jesus came to establish it.
Jeremiah 32:40
And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
Ezekiel 37:26
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
:thumbsup:
This is so wonderful.
But, don't you think it is the same everlasting covenant made with Abraham?
It was always to be based on the grace of God.
Yes, I think it is the same. Paul called the promise to Abraham the Gospel. [Galatians 3:8]
Doug
The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."
--Gal 3:8
Quote from: thinktank on January 03, 2012, 11:29:32 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 03, 2012, 09:58:48 PM
If the teaching about the ultimate salvation of all is coupled with a doomsday message about an asteroid impact, that wipes out most of humanity, it seems a bit like trying to light a candle, in the midst of a hurricane.
I whole-heartedly agree!!! I've often been a bit bewildered at some of the responses in the past on this forum pertaining to these kinds of things where many agree that God saved the whole world, but yet embrace many of the same teachings the ET'ers embrace when addressing things like the books of Daniel and Revelation and such . . .hanging on to that "end of the world destruction" idealism just seems to contradict the life message that comes from the far-reaching affects that Jesus brought to the world in the first place.
This is the gospel message in its entirety. I think UR attracts peace minded individuals and so tend to sway to much towards peace and safety, when the bible says otherwise. I don't think UR will ever be taken seriously if most of the individuals do not take the rest of scriptures seriously, the book of revelation, the book of Daniel, the book of Peter, Isiah some of Pauls writings, these are entire books dedicated towards the end times and the coming of Jesus Christ.
The asteroid impact does not wipe away all of mankind, it destroys 1 third. Jesus should protect those nations and cities which are saved.
7The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
This is probably not speaking of an asteroid impact, or natural disasters. The hail, fire and blood are all symbolic here; rain and snow represent God's word, in Isaiah 55:10, so hail might represent a strong rebuke. Jesus compared the message of the Gospel to
fire.
Luke 12:49
I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
Isaiah said, "all flesh is grass."
Isaiah 40:6-8
The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
The righteous are compared to trees in Psalm 1:2. By identifying the various symbols from the Scripture, one can understand what the prophecy is about.
Quote from: thinktank on January 03, 2012, 11:29:32 PM
8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
Babylon is referred to as a "burnt mountain" in Jeremiah 51:25. Its judgment includes fire, vs. 58.
Isaiah 57:20 says: "The wicked are like the troubled sea ..." Revelation 17:15 says: "The waters which thou sawest , where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations and tongues;"
Ships in this prophecy have sometimes been interpreted as churches.
Quote from: thinktank on January 03, 2012, 11:29:32 PM
10And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
The message of the Gospel is a life-giving stream; Jesus spoke of the "rivers of living water" that flow from those who believe in him.
But the waters are made bitter and corrupted by flawed interpretations, and relics of paganism, and superstition. The doctrine of infernal torment is an example; there are many others.
Charles D. Alexander wrote, on this Scripture: "The reversion of the life giving Gospel fountains to death-dealing bitter waters, takes place whenever the life giving doctrines of divine grace are corrupted by apostate and carnal religion."
Doug
The everlasting covenant--A Nation of Priests
What's more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would declare the Gentiles to be righteous because of their faith. God proclaimed this good news to Abraham long ago when he said, "All nations will be blessed through you."
--Gal 3:8
Genesis 18:18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him.
Genesis 22:18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."
I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, Gen 26:4
since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith Rom 3:30
and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel." Ex 19:6
IMO
Abraham's descendants are the descendents of faith.
So also Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. Galatians 3:6-9
Jesus is Abraham's seed. We have been begotten anew by an incorruptible seed, unto a fervent love of the brethren. "In Christ" there is only.... One New Man composed of Hebrews and Gentiles.....
He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.(Gal 3:14)
Jn1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Begotten by.....The word implanted which is able to save our souls. "Christ in you, the hope of glory". Beginning as a seed having within it, "everything pertaing to life and godliness through the true knowldge of God". Making us "partakers of the divine nature", being "transformed by the renewing of our minds"- conformed to the image of Christ, the image of God.
Jesus said, "Of these stones i am able to raise up children to Abraham", and he did, living stones, fitly joined together, mortared with brotherly love, a tabernacle of God "in the Spirit".
He told the Pharisees they were guilty of all the blood of all the prophets from Abel(making them sons of Cain) to Zechariah(making them sons of the devil). He even said they were children of the devil, a murderer(liar and thief) from the beginning. He said, "If you were sons of Abraham you would not be trying to kill me", making clear that the promise was of faith, and tied to the actions that spring from faith.....
Gal.3:16,17 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.
Any developments subsequent to the intial promise to Abraham and his "seed" cannot override that initial covenant. All the nations will be blessed through the "seed" of Abraham, that is Christ. This promise extends to everyone, for, "if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me". "For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in him and to reconcile all things to Himself through the blood of his cross." The promise was carried through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in their "age". It was carried by the nation of Israel through theirs. It is being carried by the church(the invisible body of Christ, under his headship by the Spirit, having nothing to do with organizations etc.), who is the Bride, the Body, the One New Man, etc. In the ages to come it will be carried by the sons(men and women and children who graduated as overcomers in this age), until all are reconciled, in heaven, on earth and under the earth- then God will be all in all, all will be dwelling "in the land of promise", children of Abraham.
Quote from: CHB on January 03, 2012, 11:53:17 PM
Quote from: Doug
The New Covenant was foretold by the prophets Jeremiah and Ezekiel several centuries before Jesus came to establish it. Martin's claim that it was to last for only a few decades, and that it was then replaced by the "mystery," does not inspire one with any confidence. Such a claim needs to be supported by notable miracles. The New Covenant is said to be "everlasting." [Hebrews 13:20]
First off, Dr. Martin did not believe that this world would be completely destroyed.
A Covenant is an agreement between two parties, it has do's and don'ts attached to it. The New Covenant was only between God, Israel and Judah. No where does it say God made a Covenant with Gentiles, old or new. The word "everlasting" means age.
CHB
Dr. Martin's views on the New Covenant were likely connected to his ideas about the identity of Israel. He believed that the nations mentioned in Bible prophecy correspond to modern nations in the Middle East, including both Jews and Gentiles. However, the New Testament shows that the church inherits the promises made to Abraham. Believers of Gentile background are made nigh to the commonwealth of Israel, and the covenants of promise by the blood of Christ. [Ephesians 2:12-13]
Jesus called the cup of the Lord's supper "my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many." [Mark 14:24] I think the Greek words translated "new testament" here mean "new covenant."
Doug
[new] "testament"
G1242
διαθήκη
diathēkē
dee-ath-ay'-kay
From G1303; properly a disposition, that is, (specifically) a contract (especially a devisory will): - covenant, testament.
It's a contract that goes into effect when someone dies [a will], which, as we see, it did.
The contract was signed with Abraham on behalf of Abraham's seed, which seed is Christ.
This is the contract passed down through Isaac, Jacob, and Ephraim.
Ephraim is the testamentary inheritor--Ephraim is my firstborn son. Jer 31:9--also known as, the Gentiles.
It's all signed, sealed, legal, and would stand up in probate court.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMnni9g7hgM
Quote from: Molly on January 04, 2012, 06:16:56 AM
[new] "testament"
G1242
διαθήκη
diathēkē
dee-ath-ay'-kay
From G1303; properly a disposition, that is, (specifically) a contract (especially a devisory will): - covenant, testament.
It's a contract that goes into effect when someone dies [a will], which, as we see, it did.
The contract was signed with Abraham on behalf of Abraham's seed, which seed is Christ.
This is the contract passed down through Isaac, Jacob, and Ephraim.
Ephraim is the testamentary inheritor--Ephraim is my firstborn son. Jer 31:9--also known as, the Gentiles.
It's all signed, sealed, legal, and would stand up in probate court.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMnni9g7hgM
The New Covenant is said to apply to the house of Israel and the house of Judah, in Jeremiah 31:31.
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
But, in the New Testament, Gentile Christians are also included in it. This is evident from Paul's discussion of the Lord's supper in 1 Corinthians 11. The Corinthians were Gentiles.
In 2 Corinthians 11, Paul declared that he wanted to present the Corinthian Christians "as a chaste virgin to Christ." He said in vs. 2-3:
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Paul referred to the relationship between Christ and the church as a "great mystery." [Ephesians 5:32] The love of Christ for His church is similar to the love of a man to his wife.
Ephesians 5:25-30
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
The statement "we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones" implies that because Jesus is Jewish, and an Israelite, those in Christ are also Israelites, in a spiritual sense. Every
bone, and all of the
flesh of Jesus is Jewish. Paul said we are "of his flesh, and of his bones;" we are his
body in which he lives by his Spirit.
Dr. Martin believed that the Jews represent Israel. But Paul said those who did not believe the Gospel were branches broken off from their tree, and cast aside, while the Gentile believers were branches of a wild olive that had been grafted in.
Romans 11:15-18
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
The conclusion is clear, that the church consisting of believers of both Jewish and Gentile origin is the true Israel.
Doug
Quote from: DougThe New Covenant is said to apply to the house of Israel and the house of Judah, in Jeremiah 31:31.
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
You keep saying this--that the covenant is with both houses--but then you ignore that he goes on only to specify the new covenant with the house of Israel:
33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Heb 8 repeats the same.
The fine print says there that this covenant is only with the house of Israel. So what is the new covenant with the house of Judah?
We are not told in this passage.
QuoteThe statement "we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones" implies that because Jesus is Jewish, and an Israelite, those in Christ are also Israelites, in a spiritual sense. Every bone, and all of the flesh of Jesus is Jewish. Paul said we are "of his flesh, and of his bones;" we are his body in which he lives by his Spirit.
You say the church are Israelites in a spiritual sense but what happened to those people of the house of Israel, that is, Ephraim, who are the inheritors of the will. If they are a different group, surely they could contest the will.
The Gentiles might be a wild olive tree but they are still an olive tree---before they are grafted onto the cultivated olive tree.
The LORD called
your name, Green Olive Tree, Lovely and of Good Fruit
--Jer 11:16
Quote from: DougPaul referred to the relationship between Christ and the church as a "great mystery." [Ephesians 5:32] The love of Christ for His church is similar to the love of a man to his wife.
Ephesians 5:25-30
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
The statement "we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones" implies that because Jesus is Jewish, and an Israelite, those in Christ are also Israelites, in a spiritual sense. Every bone, and all of the flesh of Jesus is Jewish. Paul said we are "of his flesh, and of his bones;" we are his body in which he lives by his Spirit
This is the story of the book of Ruth. She is originally a Moabite who marries an Israelite. When her husband dies, she is set adrift, but remains with her mother-in-law declaring 'your God is my God'--until she is redeemed by Boaz, again the house of Judah, who marries her. And of course, she becomes the great grandmother of king David.
So yes, it is the same pattern--redeemed by marriage--the two shall become one flesh.
But Boaz is also Ruth's kinsman through her earlier marriage--hence the kinsman redeemer.
Quote from: Molly on January 04, 2012, 02:29:28 PM
Quote from: DougThe New Covenant is said to apply to the house of Israel and the house of Judah, in Jeremiah 31:31.
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
You keep saying this--that the covenant is with both houses--but then you ignore that he goes on only to specify the new covenant with the house of Israel:
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Heb 8 repeats the same.
Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Quote from: Molly on January 04, 2012, 02:29:28 PM
The fine print says there that this covenant is only with the house of Israel. So what is the new covenant with the house of Judah?
We are not told in this passage.
The breach between the northern kingdom and the Davidic kingdom of Judah was only temporary. The Jews were taken into captivity to the same areas where the northern tribes were dwelling, in what is now Iraq. Thus the tribes were reunited to some extent, at least with the remaining Israelites, and this is illustrated in Ezekiel's prophecy of the two sticks becoming one.
The label "Jews" applied to all the tribes, and so did the label "Israel," after the captivity. We see this must be so, in the church, since Jesus is both a Jew, and an Israelite, and we are "of his flesh, and of his bones" and so inherit those labels from Christ. This is why, I think, Jesus said, "for salvation is of the Jews." [John 4:22] And Paul said, "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." [Philippians 3:3] Paul said we have "no confidence in the flesh" as he did not want people seeking some Jewish connection in their ancestry, as apparently some did. He probably alluded to this when he wrote to Timothy, "Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do." [1 Timothy 1:4] Having some Jewish or Israelite connection in a literal sense has
absolutely nothing to do with faith in Christ.
Quote from: Molly on January 04, 2012, 02:29:28 PM
QuoteThe statement "we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones" implies that because Jesus is Jewish, and an Israelite, those in Christ are also Israelites, in a spiritual sense. Every bone, and all of the flesh of Jesus is Jewish. Paul said we are "of his flesh, and of his bones;" we are his body in which he lives by his Spirit.
You say the church are Israelites in a spiritual sense but what happened to those people of the house of Israel, that is, Ephraim, who are the inheritors of the will. If they are a different group, surely they could contest the will.
The ones who did not believe in Christ were branches broken off from their tree. That remains true today.
Quote from: Molly on January 04, 2012, 02:29:28 PM
The Gentiles might be a wild olive tree but they are still an olive tree---before they are grafted onto the cultivated olive tree.
The LORD called your name,
Green Olive Tree, Lovely and of Good Fruit
--Jer 11:16
Paul wrote,
Romans 11:19-21
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
To be an Israelite is a matter of
belief, not of ethnic background.
Doug
Quote from: Molly on January 04, 2012, 02:47:36 PM
Quote from: DougPaul referred to the relationship between Christ and the church as a "great mystery." [Ephesians 5:32] The love of Christ for His church is similar to the love of a man to his wife.
Ephesians 5:25-30
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
The statement "we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones" implies that because Jesus is Jewish, and an Israelite, those in Christ are also Israelites, in a spiritual sense. Every bone, and all of the flesh of Jesus is Jewish. Paul said we are "of his flesh, and of his bones;" we are his body in which he lives by his Spirit
This is the story of the book of Ruth. She is originally a Moabite who marries an Israelite. When her husband dies, she is set adrift, but remains with her mother-in-law declaring 'your God is my God'--until she is redeemed by Boaz, again the house of Judah, who marries her. And of course, she becomes the great grandmother of king David.
So yes, it is the same pattern--redeemed by marriage--the two shall become one flesh.
But Boaz is also Ruth's kinsman through her earlier marriage--hence the kinsman redeemer.
When Ruth married Naomi's son, she became an Israelite. She elected to remain an Israelite after the death of her husband. "And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge:
thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God:" [Ruth 1:16]
And similarly, since the church is Christ's "wife," or bride, Gentile believers are
married to Christ, and inherit his Jewishness. Also they are of the "house of David," and they are "priests" as Christ is a priest in heaven. Thus, Peter says, "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." [1 Peter 2:9-10] This is written to Gentiles who became a "holy nation" [the true Israel] by faith in Christ.
Doug
Quote from: Doug on January 04, 2012, 03:10:16 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 04, 2012, 02:47:36 PM
Quote from: DougPaul referred to the relationship between Christ and the church as a "great mystery." [Ephesians 5:32] The love of Christ for His church is similar to the love of a man to his wife.
Ephesians 5:25-30
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
The statement "we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones" implies that because Jesus is Jewish, and an Israelite, those in Christ are also Israelites, in a spiritual sense. Every bone, and all of the flesh of Jesus is Jewish. Paul said we are "of his flesh, and of his bones;" we are his body in which he lives by his Spirit
This is the story of the book of Ruth. She is originally a Moabite who marries an Israelite. When her husband dies, she is set adrift, but remains with her mother-in-law declaring 'your God is my God'--until she is redeemed by Boaz, again the house of Judah, who marries her. And of course, she becomes the great grandmother of king David.
So yes, it is the same pattern--redeemed by marriage--the two shall become one flesh.
But Boaz is also Ruth's kinsman through her earlier marriage--hence the kinsman redeemer.
When Ruth married Naomi's son, she became an Israelite. She elected to remain an Israelite after the death of her husband. "And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God:" [Ruth 1:16]
And similarly, since the church is Christ's "wife," or bride, Gentile believers are married to Christ, and inherit his Jewishness. Also they are of the "house of David," and they are "priests" as Christ is a priest in heaven. Thus, Peter says, "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." [1 Peter 2:9-10] This is written to Gentiles who became a "holy nation" [the true Israel] by faith in Christ.
Doug
Yes, Ruth has become an Israelite through her earlier marriage, which is why Boaz can redeem her--through the law of the kinsman redeemer.
Christ is our kinsman Redeemer. How is that possible unless we are already kinsmen?
But, you bring up an interesting point--we are marrying into the tribe of Judah--because Christ is the tribe of Judah, and also into the Melchizedek priesthood--therefore, we become by marriage, a royal priesthood--king and priest.
Which brings us back to a nation of priests which is what God prophesied over Israel. It was always his intent from the beginning to set apart a nation of priests for himself. We don't see this actually happening until the new testament---because someone has to die for us to inherit the promises.
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 04, 2012, 03:40:40 PM
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Quote from: Molly on January 04, 2012, 03:33:57 PM
Yes, Ruth has become an Israelite through her earlier marriage, which is why Boaz can redeem her--through the law of the kinsman redeemer.
Christ is our kinsman Redeemer. How is that possible unless we are already kinsmen?
But, you bring up an interesting point--we are marrying into the tribe of Judah--because Christ is the tribe of Judah, and also into the Melchizedek priesthood--therefore, we become by marriage, a royal priesthood--king and priest.
Which brings us back to a nation of priests which is what God prophesied over Israel. It was always his intent from the beginning to set apart a nation of priests for himself. We don't see this actually happening until the new testament---because someone has to die for us to inherit the promises.
Those who believe in Christ are a "royal priesthood" only by their connection with Christ. A person who is descended, say, from Ephraim, is not of the house of David, or of Levi, so does not inherit royalty, or the right to be a priest. And the same for members of the other tribes. A person of the tribe of Judah does not have any right to be a priest. But in Christ, those things apply to all believers. Therefore, they are a "royal priesthood," not because of their ethnic origin, but by faith in Christ. In a similar way, Gentile believers become Israelites, not because of their ethnic origin, but by faith in Christ.
Doug
Quote from: DougThe breach between the northern kingdom and the Davidic kingdom of Judah was only temporary. The Jews were taken into captivity to the same areas where the northern tribes were dwelling, in what is now Iraq. Thus the tribes were reunited to some extent, at least with the remaining Israelites, and this is illustrated in Ezekiel's prophecy of the two sticks becoming one.
well, I disagree with that. Take a look at this:
When the Babylonian captivity of the House of Judah ended in 538 B.C., there was a return of God's people known today as "the Restoration." Religious writers looking back upon this event 2,500 years later invariably assume that virtually every one of the Israelites, all twelve tribes, were soon reestablished in Canaan. But surprisingly, there are two very credible and inspired witnesses to the events of that period—Ezra and Nehemiah—who sharply disagree with most modern historians.
In fact, these two prophets are the only reliable eyewitnesses whose accounts are existing today concerning the Restoration period of Biblical history. Both agree on an important point:
They specifically refer to the returnees as being only of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, corporately known as the House of Judah. There is no mention at all of any of the other missing ten tribes which comprised the kingdom of the House of Israel!Ezra was looking for colonists to resettle Israel's old homeland, yet not only did he not send an embassy to the missing ten tribes, he strangely did not mention their existence at all. We receive the definite impression that Ezra had no idea where they were himself! In 2 Kings 17:6, we were told that the house of Israel was exiled by Assyria "to Halah, and Habor, and the cities of the Medes." If they were still in the same location in Ezra's day, surely he would have sent emissaries there to encourage them to return to the land of Canaan. Yet Ezra did not send an envoy,
nor did he seem to even know where they had gone.Although only two tribes are ever mentioned throughout the Book of Ezra, the common teaching today is that all twelve tribes of Israel, from both Houses of Israel and Judah, were reunited at the end of the Babylonian captivity. If so, why is there
no mention of the rest of these tribes, either in the early portion of the book (see Ezra 1:5 and 4:1, "Judah and Benjamin"), or during events years later (Ezra 10:9, "Judah and Benjamin")? The prophet Ezra knew nothing of any return to old Canaan of the exiled ten tribes of the House of Israel! Neither did his contemporary, the prophet
Nehemiah, who spoke only of the existence of the "House of Judah" (Neh. 4:16) and the two tribes it comprised, Judah and Benjamin (Neh. 11:4, 36; 12:34).
A leading Jewish Israeli scholar, Sara Japhet, agrees and says, "the restoration [i.e. return from exile] and the subsequent renewal of Jewish community life involved
only three tribes: the lay tribes of Judah and Benjamin, and the tribe of Levi." ("From The Rivers Of Babylon," p.82) Levi was the priestly tribe whose members were divided and spread among all of the other tribes. It therefore did not inherit land itself and the majority of its members would be proportionately found among the missing tribes of the House of Israel.
It is further very significant that out of all of King David's descendants, only one—Hattush—is listed (Ezra 8:2) among the returning exiles. Since the land of Canaan was virtually emptied of Hebrews during the Babylonian exile,
apparently all of David's other descendants remained in the diaspora in other lands. One of them, King Zedekiah's daughter, accompanied by the prophet Jeremiah, escaped the defeated and plundered land of Judah (Jer. 43) to go first to Tahpahnes, Egypt, and then (according to legendary history) to the isles of the West.
Another very possible line of descent from King David provides an interesting link with the Norse-Gothic tribes and their early leader Odin. We read in 1 Chronicles 3:17-18 that Davidic descendant and king of Judah, Jehoiakin, had one son, Asir (KJV: Assir), translated in the RSV and NIV as "captive." This Asir was therefore among those exiled from Canaan, and as noted above, neither he nor any of his descendants were included in Ezra's list of those who returned from Babylon. Where did Asir, of the Davidic royal line of kings, and his descendants go? In Norse history, although encased in myth, Asir or Aesir was the name of the chief royal tribe living at Asgard, the early Mideast homeland of the Norse people. The Columbia Encyclopedia under the heading "Germanic religion" states, "In early times there were two groups of gods—the Aesir and the Vanir. However, after a war between the rival pantheons which perhaps reflects a war between two rival tribes, the defeated Vanir were absorbed into the Aesir, and the gods of both were worshipped in a single pantheon...of twelve principal deities...The gods dwelled at Asgard." Apparently, exiled Israelites of the twelve tribes gathered around their Davidic leader, Aesir, before leaving the Mideast for Europe. A later leader of these assembled tribes was Odin, whose name is pure Semitic. The name Odin has been shown by scholars to be a royal title meaning "Lord" (compare the Hebrew "Adonai" and early Greek hero, "Adonis").
This should not be surprising, since
Ezra informs us that only four courses or divisions of priests returned from Babylon (Ezra 2:36-39), out of a total of twenty-four courses (1 Chron. 24:7-18). These twenty-four courses of priests were a prophetic foretype of the twenty-four elders of the Book of Revelation (4:4; 19:4), showing us that
they were not eliminated in God's Divine purposes. Simple math will show that well over
80% of the priesthood of Israel therefore did not return from its exile in foreign lands. This percentage would also be reflected in the very low number of Israelites as a whole who returned to Canaan.
Respected scholar, Dr. W.F. Lofthouse, in "Israel After The Exile," (Clarendon Bible, Old Testament, Vol. 4), has this to say: "[Cyrus' decree] did not mean that any large number of Jews returned from Babylon to Palestine...it is doubtful if many of the Jews (save the poorer members of the community) would have been anxious to leave... Moreover, if there had been a considerable company of returning exiles, our sources for subsequent events in Palestine must have referred to its presence there. As a matter of fact, such references do not exist." (p.24) In other words,
relatively very few Israelites ever returned to the land of Canaan after being exiled.
The only place that you will read that all of the Israelite tribes reunited in Babylon, and returned together as one body to Canaan, is in the religious theories of some opponents of the Two-House belief! Neither reputable scholars, nor the Bible, nor history support the idea of a mass return from Babylon of both Houses of Israel. Instead, the prophet Ezra stated, "...grace hath been showed from the LORD our God, to leave us
a remnant to escape..." (9:8) Again he emphasized, "We are left this day
as a remnant." (9:15, NIV) There is no question that Ezra, an eye-witness, documented that the majority of Israel remained in exile in other lands!
Some of our critics claim that these exiled Israelites all intermarried with the pagan nations of Assyria and Babylon and passed out of existence as a separate people. To this, Dr. Lofthouse replies, "Were they absorbed into the new civilization? If they had been, no one would have been surprised. But they were not." (ibid. p.5)
Other critics assert that although few Israelites may have returned immediately, a mass exodus took place sometime later. This too, ignores the facts of history. An interesting statement appears in Ezra's last chapter which bears on this. It reads: "And they made proclamation throughout Judah and Jerusalem unto all the children of the captivity, that they should gather themselves together unto Jerusalem; And that whosoever would not come within three days, according to the counsel of the princes and the elders, all his substance should be forfeited, and himself separated from the congregation of those that had been carried away." (Ezra 10:7-8)
Ezra stated that exiles who did not return to Jerusalem at that time "forfeited" all of their property. The Hebrew word used here, yaharam, means confiscated property. Any Israelite who returned months or years later would have found his home and vineyard legally turned over to others.
He was disinherited! At that point, there was no incentive to return. Those not present at the appointed time were "separated" or
"expelled" (NIV) from citizenship among the exiles. (Ezra 10:8) Those remaining in exile were truly
"lost tribes," for they had lost their land, property, and citizenship in their former homeland of Canaan.The book of Nehemiah tells us that the whole community of exiles who returned to Canaan was only 42,360. (Neh. 8:66) What happened to the rest of God's people, the Israelite majority who continued in exile? They did not remain in Assyria and Babylon. As Dr. Lofthouse expressed it, "[the prophet] Jeremiah...seems to imply a certain restlessness among the exiles." (ibid. p.5)
The fulfillment of the numerous prophecies of Scripture required that these restless wanderers be later found in the coastlands and isles to the west, where they became a great multitude and company of nations. (Gen. 15:5; 35:11; Isa. 42:4) -J.S. Brooks
http://www.israelite.info/
Quote from: Doug on January 04, 2012, 03:51:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 04, 2012, 03:33:57 PM
Yes, Ruth has become an Israelite through her earlier marriage, which is why Boaz can redeem her--through the law of the kinsman redeemer.
Christ is our kinsman Redeemer. How is that possible unless we are already kinsmen?
But, you bring up an interesting point--we are marrying into the tribe of Judah--because Christ is the tribe of Judah, and also into the Melchizedek priesthood--therefore, we become by marriage, a royal priesthood--king and priest.
Which brings us back to a nation of priests which is what God prophesied over Israel. It was always his intent from the beginning to set apart a nation of priests for himself. We don't see this actually happening until the new testament---because someone has to die for us to inherit the promises.
Those who believe in Christ are a "royal priesthood" only by their connection with Christ. A person who is descended, say, from Ephraim, is not of the house of David, or of Levi, so does not inherit royalty, or the right to be a priest. And the same for members of the other tribes. A person of the tribe of Judah does not have any right to be a priest. But in Christ, those things apply to all believers. Therefore, they are a "royal priesthood," not because of their ethnic origin, but by faith in Christ. In a similar way, Gentile believers become Israelites, not because of their ethnic origin, but by faith in Christ.
Doug
Ephraim is the inheritor of the will.
Think like a lawyer!
Do you think God makes contracts and then changes his mind?
What is the inheritance? Well, among other things, it is CHRIST.
How can I prove I am a rightful inheritor under Ephraim?
I go into probate court and slap down my faith in front of the judge.
Case closed. My faith justifies me.
That's what the whole Protestant Reformation was about.
Martin Luther read Paul and the whole world changed for him.
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, Rom 5:1
Quote from: Molly on January 04, 2012, 04:01:38 PM
Quote from: Doug on January 04, 2012, 03:51:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 04, 2012, 03:33:57 PM
Yes, Ruth has become an Israelite through her earlier marriage, which is why Boaz can redeem her--through the law of the kinsman redeemer.
Christ is our kinsman Redeemer. How is that possible unless we are already kinsmen?
But, you bring up an interesting point--we are marrying into the tribe of Judah--because Christ is the tribe of Judah, and also into the Melchizedek priesthood--therefore, we become by marriage, a royal priesthood--king and priest.
Which brings us back to a nation of priests which is what God prophesied over Israel. It was always his intent from the beginning to set apart a nation of priests for himself. We don't see this actually happening until the new testament---because someone has to die for us to inherit the promises.
Those who believe in Christ are a "royal priesthood" only by their connection with Christ. A person who is descended, say, from Ephraim, is not of the house of David, or of Levi, so does not inherit royalty, or the right to be a priest. And the same for members of the other tribes. A person of the tribe of Judah does not have any right to be a priest. But in Christ, those things apply to all believers. Therefore, they are a "royal priesthood," not because of their ethnic origin, but by faith in Christ. In a similar way, Gentile believers become Israelites, not because of their ethnic origin, but by faith in Christ.
Doug
Ephraim is the inheritor of the will.
Think like a lawyer!
Do you think God makes contracts and then changes his mind?
What is the inheritance? Well, among other things, it is CHRIST.
How can I prove I am a rightful inheritor under Ephraim?
Even if one could prove beyond a doubt that he or she descended directly from Ephraim, that would not entitle him or her to inherit the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob, or the other promises given to Israel, according to John the Baptist.
Luke 3:7-9
Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Quote from: Molly on January 04, 2012, 04:01:38 PM
I go into probate court and slap down my faith in front of the judge.
Case closed. My faith justifies me.
That's what the whole Protestant Reformation was about.
Martin Luther read Paul and the whole world changed for him.
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, Rom 5:1
Paul was not referring to faith in one's ancestry. He meant faith in Christ. It is from their status in Christ that believers become a "royal priesthood," not from their ethnic background, which for most people is rather dubious.
Doug
Hosea: A Prophetic Standard for the House of Israel
Was God Finished With Israel?
The Prophet Hosea's book is the first of what are known as the "minor" or short prophets of the Old Testament, whose writings were shorter in length than the writings of the "major" prophets such as Isaiah and Jeremiah. Yet Hosea's prophecies were not only important, but of especial interest for us today in the lands of Western Christendom, for as the Biblical Encyclopedia (Gray and Adams) tells us, "The prophecies of Hosea were addressed to the Ten Tribes." (iii:713)
Nevertheless, many commentaries seem to overlook the historic and prophetic importance of the division of Israel into two nations, usually referred to as the "Two Houses of Israel," which Hosea labels "Ephraim" and "Judah." The nation of Ephraim constituted the northern ten of the twelve tribes of Israel, receiving this name from their largest tribe and inheritor of the national birthright blessings given to his father, Joseph (1 Chron. 5:1-2). Bible reference books often simply refer to them as "Israel," or "the House of Israel," in contrast with two-tribe Judah.
Yet some commentaries attempt to make Hosea's prophecies fit the return of the House of Judah to Canaan after the Babylonian captivity. This does such violence to the meaning of the prophecies that even well-known dispensationalist author, Arno C. Gabelein, rebuked such a view and declared, "His [Hosea's] prophecy is directed almost exclusively to the house of Israel."
The book of the Prophet Hosea could in fact be described as the redemptive history of the ten tribe House of Israel. Here the prophet presents an account of her sin, punishment and restoration, beginning his first chapter with a concise synopsis using prophetic and symbolic language. He has little good to say of Israel's then current moral condition in the opening verses of this first chapter; his terse, harsh, sad words remind one of his later Judean counterpart, the Prophet Jeremiah. In fact, the Biblical Encyclopedia says, "he was the Jeremiah of Israel."
Although Hosea had a similar moral message to Jeremiah, calling for repentance from sin, yet the House of Israel's prophetic prospects were significantly different from those of Judah. The dissimularity, however, is not clearly understood at all by modern expositors, who fail to give the nation of Ephraim-Israel any future in the plan of God. One strangely declares, "The prophets of Judah could look forward to a restored people and a repaired polity. The ten tribes had no separate future. Their temporal punishment was irreversible." (ibid. p.712)
Or was it? A closer look at Hosea's prophecies sharply contradicts that claim. Despite Ephraim's sin, Hosea forecasts what can only be considered a magnificent future for the House of Israel. They were to rid themselves of their idols, become the Lord's bride, receive mercy, be saved by the Lord's might, and expand greatly in numbers as the sand on the seashore. To ignore all of this—and more—is to be blind indeed to Hosea's tremendous prophetic promises. Yet the expositors who recognize only the Jews as legitimate Israelites after the end of the Babylonian captivity have just such blind confusion. And their confusion can only increase as Hosea's blessings upon Ephraim-Israel increase.
Other mysteries for the expositors: In the parallel passages Hosea 1:11 and Jer. 3:18, if Judah and Israel were taken into two different exiles by two different enemies, how is it that Judah shall walk with Israel? The Keil-Delitzsch Old Testament Commentary maintains that verse eleven "presupposes that Judah will find itself in the same situation as Israel; that is to say, that it will also be rejected by the Lord." (x:47) Yet we know for a fact that Judah was not divorced by God as was Ephraim, for Hosea records, "I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God" (i:7). Instead, Scripture informs us that the Assyrians who conquered Israel also captured all of the "fenced cities" of Judah in 701 B.C. (2 Ki. 18:13), and so a main body of Judah went into Assyrian exile along with Israel. Thus, Judah walked with, or to, Israel in their exile.
Yet this was not yet the prophesied reunion of the Two Houses of Israel, Ephraim and Judah, for (as Keil-Delitzsch states), "the object of the union is to appoint themselves one head, and go up out of the land" (x:47), according to Hosea 1:11. Where then did they together go? Some leading commentaries recognize that they did not return to old Canaan!
For example, the Keil-Delitzsch Old Testament Commentary (x:49) says, "So far as the fulfillment of this prophecy is concerned, the fact that the patriarchal promise of the innumerable multiplication of Israel is to be realized through the pardon and restoration of Israel...shows clearly enough that we are not to look for this in the return of the ten tribes from captivity to Palestine, their native land....the numbers of the ten tribes, who may have attached themselves to the Judaeans on their return, or who returned to Galilee afterwards as years rolled by, formed but a very small fraction of the number that had been carried away; the attachment of these few to Judah could not properly be called a union of the sons of Israel and of the sons of Judah, and still less was it a fulfillment of the words, 'They appoint themselves one head'...this fulfillment falls within the Messianic times, and hitherto has only been realized in very small beginnings, which furnish a pledge of their complete fulfillment in the last times...(Rom. 11:25-26)."
This eminent commentary contradicts much of the popular teaching today concerning Ephraim, the House of Israel. The ten tribes never returned to Palestine, other than a tiny remnant, and therefore logically must remain "lost tribes" in our world today. Further, the joining of the two houses of Judah and Ephraim-Israel has not yet taken place, awaiting the dawn of the millennial age. Yet, Keil-Delitzsch's solution is that Ephraim-Israel must only be a spiritual people in our world today. (x:49)
Another mystery: Verse eleven of chapter one concludes by saying, "for great shall be the day of Jezreel." These words cause untold consternation for the expositors. "The day of Jezreel causes no little difficulty," admits Keil-Delitzsch (x:48). This is true, if the verse is made to refer to the city and valley in old Canaan where Assyria broke Israel's might (2 Ki. 15:29). How could a place of tragedy for Israel be a symbol for anything good? But taking instead the Hebrew meaning of "scattering" or "sowing," it makes eminent sense. Israel was to be scattered and sown in the lands of her exile, so that Hosea could proclaim that she would become as the sand of the sea for multitude (1:10). This cannot await a millennial fulfillment, since Israel will not be in exile then.
The word, "Jezreel," has a double meaning of sowing or scattering, yet the latter meaning is often neglected by many commentaries, who thus fail to see that Ephraim-Israel did not return to Canaan, but traveled far afield in her exile down to the present day.
The New Testament treatment of Hosea's tremendous prophecy in chapter one, verse ten was given by the Apostle Paul in Romans 9:25-26. Paul quoted this to show that Israel's exile, her "sowing in the earth" still continued to that time, and that Israel's restoration still lay in the future. Some expositors try to spiritualize this, but since the spiritual fulfillment of prophecy parallels and augments the physical fulfillment, Israel's physical exile must have still continued to the time of Christ.
Has no one noticed the incongruity of giving Judah's prophecies a literal, physical fulfillment, while limiting Ephraim-Israel's prophecies to the spiritual realm? In actual fact, the physical and spiritual realms parallel one another as a necessary double witness (Dt. 19:15; Mt. 18:16; 2 Cor. 13:1).
Furthermore, from other prophecies (such as Ezkiel 37) we know that Ephraim-Israel's spiritual restoration was to precede her physical reunion with Judah. This true spiritual restoration could only begin to take place with the coming of Christ, as Peter proclaimed in the New Testament: "Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." (1 Peter 2:10) Peter's language is lifted directly from Hosea 1:10 and 2:23, showing clearly that these Old Testament prophecies of Ephraim-Israel's restoration had not previously been fulfilled.
Paul in Romans 9:26 also quoted Hosea 1:10, gave an emphatic reference to their physical "place" of exile, and then in the next chapter declared that the Gospel must go to them to the ends of the earth (Rom.10:18). Clearly, Ephraim-Israel, the ten tribe House of Israel, had not been regathered to old Canaan! Her scattering took her to new lands of promise (2 Sam. 7:10) where her spiritual restoration is now well underway. -J.S. Brooks
http://www.israelite.info/
Quote from: DougEven if one could prove beyond a doubt that he or she descended directly from Ephraim, that would not entitle him or her to inherit the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob, or the other promises given to Israel, according to John the Baptist.
Luke 3:7-9
Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire
John the Baptist is talking specifically to the representatives of the Pharisees who are Jews. Doesn't context mean anything? He's not talking to the house of Israel which is long lost by this time. He's talking to a specific group of people. Both John the Baptist and Jesus called the Pharisees and Sadducees, Vipers! I'm sure they weren't too pleased by it. Oh, right, they crucified him.
Once again, the promise comes through Ephraim, the house of Israel. Not through the house of Judah,
Quote from: Molly on January 04, 2012, 05:27:02 PM
Quote from: DougEven if one could prove beyond a doubt that he or she descended directly from Ephraim, that would not entitle him or her to inherit the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob, or the other promises given to Israel, according to John the Baptist.
Luke 3:7-9
Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire
John the Baptist is talking specifically to the representatives of the Pharisees who are Jews.
Read the rest of John's message.
Luke 3:3-6
And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins; As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; And all flesh shall see the salvation of God. All mountains, John said, would be made low, and valleys filled. Literally, that did not happen in the first century. Not a single mountain was made low, literally. But the mountains and hills of Isaiah's prophecy are metaphors, and they allude to the mountains and hills of Israel, mentioned by Jacob, when he blessed Joseph, in Genesis 49:26. He said, "The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren."
The blessings Jacob inherited were
high and
lofty like the highest mountains, and
durable, or eternal, like the "everlasting hills." Jacob realized that the promise of possessing the land of Canaan represented something higher, of a spiritual nature, and more lasting than the literal land of Canaan. He looked for a "better country, that is, an heavenly." [Hebrews 11:16] He looked for the resurrection, and the kingdom of God.
When John the Baptist said, "every valley shall be filled," he must have referred to the
spiritual things that valleys represent. Joel said,
Joel 3:18
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.Valleys or ravines of Judah are to "flow with waters." These refer to spiritual waters. A literal river could not cross the Dead Sea and flow uphill to the valley of Shittim!
In other scriptures valleys are sometimes symbolic of judgments, e.g. Gehenna, and they are scenes of battles, such as the valley of Jehoshaphat [Joel 3:12] or Jezreel. [Hosea 1:5, 11] Valleys being filled might also represent missing revelations being given, as valleys are places where the earth has been eroded away. Many revelations are included in the New Testament.
Mountains represent blessings, or promises. The promises to the ethnic Israelites are diminished in the New Testament; the literal temple loses its significance; the literal Jerusalem is equated with Hagar the Egyptian bondwoman who was cast out of Abraham's house. Paul wrote:
Galatians 4:22-26
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. What a let-down for the hopes of the Jews! And less than 20 years after, Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans and the temple burned.
God's revelations are represented by the entire promised land. The crooked being made straight, and the rough ways smooth, probably both refer to hard sayings in the Bible being explained. There are many examples of this in the New Testament.
Quote from: Molly on January 04, 2012, 05:27:02 PM
Doesn't context mean anything? He's not talking to the house of Israel which is long lost by this time. He's talking to a specific group of people. Both John the Baptist and Jesus called the Pharisees and Sadducees, Vipers! I'm sure they weren't too pleased by it. Oh, right, they crucified him.
Once again, the promise comes through Ephraim, the house of Israel. Not through the house of Judah,
No, the promise comes through Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
Yes, of course the promises come through Christ.
What I meant was the inheritance and the blessings are passed down through Ephraim, which is the same thing I've been saying for three or four pages.
Ephraim is my firstborn son Jer 31:9
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 03, 2012, 10:04:51 PM
what about "I form the light and the darkness I create peace and calamity (evil) I the lord do all these things?"
Yeah?? How does this disagree with what I'm saying? God created this realm . . .but Adam let it dominate him. In the end, the restoration will bring everything back into it's original and rightful alignment. Natural will become secondary, spiritual will become primary.
Quote from: thinktank on January 03, 2012, 11:29:32 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 03, 2012, 09:58:48 PM
If the teaching about the ultimate salvation of all is coupled with a doomsday message about an asteroid impact, that wipes out most of humanity, it seems a bit like trying to light a candle, in the midst of a hurricane.
I whole-heartedly agree!!! I've often been a bit bewildered at some of the responses in the past on this forum pertaining to these kinds of things where many agree that God saved the whole world, but yet embrace many of the same teachings the ET'ers embrace when addressing things like the books of Daniel and Revelation and such . . .hanging on to that "end of the world destruction" idealism just seems to contradict the life message that comes from the far-reaching affects that Jesus brought to the world in the first place.
This is the gospel message in its entirety. I think UR attracts peace minded individuals and so tend to sway to much towards peace and safety, when the bible says otherwise. I don't think UR will ever be taken seriously if most of the individuals do not take the rest of scriptures seriously, the book of revelation, the book of Daniel, the book of Peter, Isiah some of Pauls writings, these are entire books dedicated towards the end times and the coming of Jesus Christ.
The asteroid impact does not wipe away all of mankind, it destroys 1 third. Jesus should protect those nations and cities which are saved.
7The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
10And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
I think UR attracts peace minded individuals and so tend to sway to much towards peace and safety, when the bible says otherwiseNot necessarily, your "interpretation" of Scripture may say otherwise, but it doesn't mean that's what it's really saying. It's all based on where our perspectives are at.
I believe God - is - light. That's my base. He is life, light and freedom. And anything that manifests otherwise is not of God directly. yes, he created this realm and in it there is overwhelming evidence of death, destruction and decay. But what does all of that derive from? God? Or Adam. Spirit? or flesh? Death is the evidence of sin. Yet there is no sin in God. He is light and in him there is no darkness. So when there's a message of darkness and despair looming over the church, I disregard it because my relationship with the Father is in light, not darkness.
It all depends on what perspective we are choosing to live in.
Quote from: Nathan on January 04, 2012, 08:52:04 PM
Quote from: thinktank on January 03, 2012, 11:29:32 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 03, 2012, 09:58:48 PM
If the teaching about the ultimate salvation of all is coupled with a doomsday message about an asteroid impact, that wipes out most of humanity, it seems a bit like trying to light a candle, in the midst of a hurricane.
I whole-heartedly agree!!! I've often been a bit bewildered at some of the responses in the past on this forum pertaining to these kinds of things where many agree that God saved the whole world, but yet embrace many of the same teachings the ET'ers embrace when addressing things like the books of Daniel and Revelation and such . . .hanging on to that "end of the world destruction" idealism just seems to contradict the life message that comes from the far-reaching affects that Jesus brought to the world in the first place.
This is the gospel message in its entirety. I think UR attracts peace minded individuals and so tend to sway to much towards peace and safety, when the bible says otherwise. I don't think UR will ever be taken seriously if most of the individuals do not take the rest of scriptures seriously, the book of revelation, the book of Daniel, the book of Peter, Isiah some of Pauls writings, these are entire books dedicated towards the end times and the coming of Jesus Christ.
The asteroid impact does not wipe away all of mankind, it destroys 1 third. Jesus should protect those nations and cities which are saved.
7The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
10And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
I think UR attracts peace minded individuals and so tend to sway to much towards peace and safety, when the bible says otherwise
Not necessarily, your "interpretation" of Scripture may say otherwise, but it doesn't mean that's what it's really saying. It's all based on where our perspectives are at.
I believe God - is - light. That's my base. He is life, light and freedom. And anything that manifests otherwise is not of God directly. yes, he created this realm and in it there is overwhelming evidence of death, destruction and decay. But what does all of that derive from? God? Or Adam. Spirit? or flesh? Death is the evidence of sin. Yet there is no sin in God. He is light and in him there is no darkness. So when there's a message of darkness and despair looming over the church, I disregard it because my relationship with the Father is in light, not darkness.
It all depends on what perspective we are choosing to live in.
Thats why he gave us these prophecies to warn us ahead of time and also to convert unbelievers when they see these things come to pass.
I don't know why else he would place these prophecies, maybe also to warn mankind that these things will come to pass if they don't repent.
Quote from: CHB on January 03, 2012, 11:45:38 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 03, 2012, 09:52:21 PM
Quote from: CHB on January 03, 2012, 08:17:38 PM
Nathan, what about the earthquake in Japan, the tsunami, tornadoes, and other happenings? You think God didn't have anything to do with those?
CHB
I think God shows up when people call on him. But I don't think he brings in chaos and destruction . . .seriously . . .what "is" God's nature? It's that age-old question "Why do bad things happen to good people?" The church puts out this vibe that if you become a Christian, life will be bliss forever more. But they seem to leave out the part that even Jesus stated "IN THIS WORLD . . you will have trials and tribulation . . ." The fact that THIS WORLD has wars and hurricanes has nothing to do with whether God sends them or not. It's not about the tribulations because IN THIS WORLD . . that's what THIS WORLD consists of. This is a world of death and decay . . .our bodies are influenced by that. Try as we will, we'll never be able to stop the process of death to these bodies we live in. The emphasis isn't on the manifestations of death, it's on the fact that Christ as overcome it all. When we pursue Christ, the miracle happens. We become illuminating life in the middle of a realm of death.
So, as to all the terrible things happening around us . . .no, I don't believe God sent any of it. I believe that is merely the nature of the realm that we live in. Every GOOD THING comes from above. The things God DOES send are things that induce life. There is no darkness in him, so why would we assume that darkness around us comes from him? There was a reason why he told Adam not to eat of that tree . . .it was the gateway into the realm in which we live. That's a whole other thread.
I could give a dozen scriptures showing otherwise but I know you wouldn't be convinced so I won't even try.
You said the cause of all of the disasters "is the nature of the realm that we live in". Pray tell, where do you think this realm originated from? If from him and to him are ALL things how can you eliminate the realm.
CHB
Well, you're dead on about one thing, quoting verses wouldn't convince me because as I just previously posted, it's not what Scripture says that motivates us, it's what "we think" it says that causes us to move or not move. And because I no longer rely on my own understanding of what I "think" it says, reading what someone quotes doesn't cut it for me anymore. It's not so much the Word written on pages that inspire us to move, it's the Word that's written in our hearts. A spark needs something to ignite before it can become a fire. The Word in me is the spark, the written word is the oil that ignites . . .when the two come together, it's a fire.
Reading Scripture doesn't automatically induce freedom. It takes the combination of the author of Scripture who lives IN me that breathes on the words already written that brings life to the pages. And the verses that may bring life to me, may have no meaning at all to you . . .it's not because the fire went out, but it's because our relationships are in different places.
As to the latter portion of your post . . .who said anything about eliminating realms??? You're twisting things around on me. I never said anything about the removal of a realm. I did say the reversal, but not the removal.
Quote from: thinktank on January 04, 2012, 09:00:01 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 04, 2012, 08:52:04 PM
Quote from: thinktank on January 03, 2012, 11:29:32 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 03, 2012, 09:58:48 PM
If the teaching about the ultimate salvation of all is coupled with a doomsday message about an asteroid impact, that wipes out most of humanity, it seems a bit like trying to light a candle, in the midst of a hurricane.
I whole-heartedly agree!!! I've often been a bit bewildered at some of the responses in the past on this forum pertaining to these kinds of things where many agree that God saved the whole world, but yet embrace many of the same teachings the ET'ers embrace when addressing things like the books of Daniel and Revelation and such . . .hanging on to that "end of the world destruction" idealism just seems to contradict the life message that comes from the far-reaching affects that Jesus brought to the world in the first place.
This is the gospel message in its entirety. I think UR attracts peace minded individuals and so tend to sway to much towards peace and safety, when the bible says otherwise. I don't think UR will ever be taken seriously if most of the individuals do not take the rest of scriptures seriously, the book of revelation, the book of Daniel, the book of Peter, Isiah some of Pauls writings, these are entire books dedicated towards the end times and the coming of Jesus Christ.
The asteroid impact does not wipe away all of mankind, it destroys 1 third. Jesus should protect those nations and cities which are saved.
7The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
10And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
I think UR attracts peace minded individuals and so tend to sway to much towards peace and safety, when the bible says otherwise
Not necessarily, your "interpretation" of Scripture may say otherwise, but it doesn't mean that's what it's really saying. It's all based on where our perspectives are at.
I believe God - is - light. That's my base. He is life, light and freedom. And anything that manifests otherwise is not of God directly. yes, he created this realm and in it there is overwhelming evidence of death, destruction and decay. But what does all of that derive from? God? Or Adam. Spirit? or flesh? Death is the evidence of sin. Yet there is no sin in God. He is light and in him there is no darkness. So when there's a message of darkness and despair looming over the church, I disregard it because my relationship with the Father is in light, not darkness.
It all depends on what perspective we are choosing to live in.
Thats why he gave us these prophecies to warn us ahead of time and also to convert unbelievers when they see these things come to pass.
I don't know why else he would place these prophecies, maybe also to warn mankind that these things will come to pass if they don't repent.
If you keep the entire Scripture in it's context, the prophesies were not aimed at the general population . . .they were aimed at the chosen nation of Israel. For me, taking a prophecy from Scripture and super-imposing it on my generation is like what the evolutionists did when they concocted their theory. There is no true evidence that man evolved from an ape. They have no proof. What they do have is huge gaps that they've filled in with logic . . .flimsy at best . . .but they got enough momentum with their facade that it took hold in many societies. I believe it's the same thing with Scriptural prophecies. I don't believe any of them were aimed at us at all.
I've still yet to see anyone address the issue as to why Daniel was told to seal his book up . . .yet John, who's book was extremely similar to the same language and imagery as Daniel's, yet John was told to leave his book open . . . the things in it were already happening. There are absolutely no statements in Revelation that would clearly proclaim that "that" generation could rest easy because the prophecies of the book were for another time. It was instead, very clear that the prophecies given were not only for "that" time frame, but the events were already happening.
Like the evolution theory, the "end times" phenomena has been repeated so many times by so many people that it's just "assumed" that it was clearly for a generation at least 2,000 years removed. I just fully believe there's a greater truth than what lies on the surface.
Quote from: Nathan on January 04, 2012, 09:01:35 PM
Quote from: CHB on January 03, 2012, 11:45:38 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 03, 2012, 09:52:21 PM
Quote from: CHB on January 03, 2012, 08:17:38 PM
Nathan, what about the earthquake in Japan, the tsunami, tornadoes, and other happenings? You think God didn't have anything to do with those?
CHB
I think God shows up when people call on him. But I don't think he brings in chaos and destruction . . .seriously . . .what "is" God's nature? It's that age-old question "Why do bad things happen to good people?" The church puts out this vibe that if you become a Christian, life will be bliss forever more. But they seem to leave out the part that even Jesus stated "IN THIS WORLD . . you will have trials and tribulation . . ." The fact that THIS WORLD has wars and hurricanes has nothing to do with whether God sends them or not. It's not about the tribulations because IN THIS WORLD . . that's what THIS WORLD consists of. This is a world of death and decay . . .our bodies are influenced by that. Try as we will, we'll never be able to stop the process of death to these bodies we live in. The emphasis isn't on the manifestations of death, it's on the fact that Christ as overcome it all. When we pursue Christ, the miracle happens. We become illuminating life in the middle of a realm of death.
So, as to all the terrible things happening around us . . .no, I don't believe God sent any of it. I believe that is merely the nature of the realm that we live in. Every GOOD THING comes from above. The things God DOES send are things that induce life. There is no darkness in him, so why would we assume that darkness around us comes from him? There was a reason why he told Adam not to eat of that tree . . .it was the gateway into the realm in which we live. That's a whole other thread.
I could give a dozen scriptures showing otherwise but I know you wouldn't be convinced so I won't even try.
You said the cause of all of the disasters "is the nature of the realm that we live in". Pray tell, where do you think this realm originated from? If from him and to him are ALL things how can you eliminate the realm.
CHB
Well, you're dead on about one thing, quoting verses wouldn't convince me because as I just previously posted, it's not what Scripture says that motivates us, it's what "we think" it says that causes us to move or not move. And because I no longer rely on my own understanding of what I "think" it says, reading what someone quotes doesn't cut it for me anymore. It's not so much the Word written on pages that inspire us to move, it's the Word that's written in our hearts. A spark needs something to ignite before it can become a fire. The Word in me is the spark, the written word is the oil that ignites . . .when the two come together, it's a fire.
Reading Scripture doesn't automatically induce freedom. It takes the combination of the author of Scripture who lives IN me that breathes on the words already written that brings life to the pages. And the verses that may bring life to me, may have no meaning at all to you . . .it's not because the fire went out, but it's because our relationships are in different places.
As to the latter portion of your post . . .who said anything about eliminating realms??? You're twisting things around on me. I never said anything about the removal of a realm. I did say the reversal, but not the removal.
Well, the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked above all things, who can know it?
Nathan, I think you misunderstood what I said about the realm. I wasn't talking about destroying or removing the realm. What I said and meant was, if from him and to him are ALL things how can you eliminate the realm from that. You said all of the disasters happened because of the realm that we live in. God created the realm. No matter from what point you start it always comes back to God.
CHB
Ha'shem [the name] revealed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AkWmZq1FR8&feature=related
This is an interesting 7 part series. I hope some would look at this and see what you think. He gets the captivity wrong [only house of Judah was taken into Babylon, the other ten tribes were gone by then], but what he says about the name is interesting. Does anyone know if what he says is correct?
32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Joel 2
for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Rom 10:13
Shouldn't we therefore know his name? And, call him by name?
The house of Israel will be delivered in one day:
21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward. Eze 39
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. Zech 13:9
:cloud9: Molly, I will definitely watch this when I get time...... :thumbsup: thanks for the link.
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 07:21:22 AM
...
32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Joel 2
No doubt the heavenly Jerusalem is meant here, not the earthly one. There was no deliverance for people in the earthly Jerusalem in 70 AD.
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 07:21:22 AM
for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Rom 10:13
Shouldn't we therefore know his name? And, call him by name?
The house of Israel will be delivered in one day:
21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward. Eze 39
The context of this prophecy is a great feast for the birds.
Ezekiel 39
17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
The elements of the prophecy are present in a similar prophecy in Revelation 19. No doubt John alludes to Ezekiel 39.
Revelation 19:17-18
And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Verse 9 says "And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God."
The fowls that fly in the midst of heaven are the ones who are called to the marriage supper. The parable of Jesus in Matthew 13:31-33 compares the kingdom of heaven to a tree in which birds dwell.
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
The birds, evidently, are those called to the wedding supper, and all the mighty men, and the various animals, are metaphors too. A spiritual sword in used against spiritual things, not against flesh and blood. The flawed interpretations and theories are slaughtered, (by the spiritual sword) and the flesh is picked off them, and devoured. This has occurred throughout the history of the church, as various false teachings and flawed interpretations have been discredited. During and after the Reformation there were many examples. Restoring the true Gospel is a process.
Note that even chariots are on the menu in Ezekiel 39:20. But chariots are inedible, so these things are all metaphors. Horses and mules represent people with no understanding in Psalm 32:9.
Doug
:cloud9: Listened to 3 of them so far. Very good. Reminds me of something in the codes. The Word is Torah (5 books). Replace the word "word" with Torah all thru there and see what you come up. Everything came out of the Torah, like a scroll being opened from both sides at once, with the son and the cross in the center. The Son was the Torah that is Spirit, made flesh. This is why there is LIFE hidden in the Torah.
When I had that experience of seeing the Word explode from the cross in both directions at once, ie. backwards and forwards at the same time, and saw scenes from both the OT and "NT" unfolding simultaneously, it was the scroll being "opened".
The codes are set up with the son's name, so that there are 2 books on each side of the middle one that "point" to His name in the middle book. Just like the 2 "sides" of branches on the side of the golden candlestick. There are codes in there that form the shape of the menorah. The codes are astounding, too. Blessings.... :HeartThrob:
11Wherefore remember, that once ye, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called Circumcision, in the flesh, made by hands; 12that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ. 14For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition, 15having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man'so making peace; 16and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17and he came and preached peace to you that were far off, and peace to them that were nigh: 18for through him we both have our access in one Spirit unto the Father. 19So then ye are no more strangers and sojourners, but ye are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, 20being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone; 21in whom each several building, fitly framed together, groweth into a holy temple in the Lord; 22in whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.
--Eph 2
creating praise on the lips of the mourners in Israel. Peace, peace, to those far and near," says the LORD. "And I will heal them." Isa 57:19
Both (τὰ ἀμφότερα)
Lit., the both. The neuter gender shows that Jews and Gentiles are conceived by the writer merely as two facts. The masculine is used in Ephesians 2:15, Ephesians 2:16. one new MAN
Jews and Gentiles were formerly separated by a wall of partition--but now that wall is broken down--this refers to the Temple, somebody please expand on this, and to the laws which set apart the Jews from the Gentiles. wall of partition
partition means 'a fence, an enclosing barrier, a hedge round about, a partition'
This is the work of the cross--that he might create in himself of the two one new man
Does this mean the house of Judah and the house of Israel are now combined into one new man, and that man is Ephraim, formerly known as the Gentile, the double portioned one, who gets not only the birthright blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but the sceptor of Judah, now both king and priest, the Israel of God in Christ?
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation
And everything has become new from God - he who reconciled us to himself in The Messiah, and he has given us the Ministry of the reconciliation.
--2 Cor 5:18, 19
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 05:16:22 PM
This is the work of the cross--that he might create in himself of the two one new man
Does this mean the house of Judah and the house of Israel are now combined into one new man, and that man is Ephraim, formerly known as the Gentile, the double portioned one, who gets not only the birthright blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but the sceptor of Judah, now both king and priest, the Israel of God in Christ?
My understanding of this is that the one new man is jew+gentile. The breaking down of the wall is between jew and gentile, so why would then the one new man be different? This is part of the revelation of the mystery, that no longer are the gentiles grafted in to the commonwealth of Israel, but the one new man is created, IMO
Quote from: CHB on January 05, 2012, 03:43:52 AM
Quote from: Nathan on January 04, 2012, 09:01:35 PM
Quote from: CHB on January 03, 2012, 11:45:38 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 03, 2012, 09:52:21 PM
Quote from: CHB on January 03, 2012, 08:17:38 PM
Nathan, what about the earthquake in Japan, the tsunami, tornadoes, and other happenings? You think God didn't have anything to do with those?
CHB
I think God shows up when people call on him. But I don't think he brings in chaos and destruction . . .seriously . . .what "is" God's nature? It's that age-old question "Why do bad things happen to good people?" The church puts out this vibe that if you become a Christian, life will be bliss forever more. But they seem to leave out the part that even Jesus stated "IN THIS WORLD . . you will have trials and tribulation . . ." The fact that THIS WORLD has wars and hurricanes has nothing to do with whether God sends them or not. It's not about the tribulations because IN THIS WORLD . . that's what THIS WORLD consists of. This is a world of death and decay . . .our bodies are influenced by that. Try as we will, we'll never be able to stop the process of death to these bodies we live in. The emphasis isn't on the manifestations of death, it's on the fact that Christ as overcome it all. When we pursue Christ, the miracle happens. We become illuminating life in the middle of a realm of death.
So, as to all the terrible things happening around us . . .no, I don't believe God sent any of it. I believe that is merely the nature of the realm that we live in. Every GOOD THING comes from above. The things God DOES send are things that induce life. There is no darkness in him, so why would we assume that darkness around us comes from him? There was a reason why he told Adam not to eat of that tree . . .it was the gateway into the realm in which we live. That's a whole other thread.
I could give a dozen scriptures showing otherwise but I know you wouldn't be convinced so I won't even try.
You said the cause of all of the disasters "is the nature of the realm that we live in". Pray tell, where do you think this realm originated from? If from him and to him are ALL things how can you eliminate the realm.
CHB
Well, you're dead on about one thing, quoting verses wouldn't convince me because as I just previously posted, it's not what Scripture says that motivates us, it's what "we think" it says that causes us to move or not move. And because I no longer rely on my own understanding of what I "think" it says, reading what someone quotes doesn't cut it for me anymore. It's not so much the Word written on pages that inspire us to move, it's the Word that's written in our hearts. A spark needs something to ignite before it can become a fire. The Word in me is the spark, the written word is the oil that ignites . . .when the two come together, it's a fire.
Reading Scripture doesn't automatically induce freedom. It takes the combination of the author of Scripture who lives IN me that breathes on the words already written that brings life to the pages. And the verses that may bring life to me, may have no meaning at all to you . . .it's not because the fire went out, but it's because our relationships are in different places.
As to the latter portion of your post . . .who said anything about eliminating realms??? You're twisting things around on me. I never said anything about the removal of a realm. I did say the reversal, but not the removal.
Well, the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked above all things, who can know it?
Nathan, I think you misunderstood what I said about the realm. I wasn't talking about destroying or removing the realm. What I said and meant was, if from him and to him are ALL things how can you eliminate the realm from that. You said all of the disasters happened because of the realm that we live in. God created the realm. No matter from what point you start it always comes back to God.
CHB
Yeah, everything comes back to God on one level or another . . .but not all things are "directly" sent by God as many would think. If I build a house in a flood zone and the river goes out of it's banks and takes my house . . .am I to understand then that God took my house? Or would it be because those are the consequences from "my" bad choices. I believe of course that God created the heavens AND THE EARTH . . .and I also believe that the earth was made "for" man to inhabit. But I "don't" believe the earth as we know it now is the same earth that he originally created in the sense that I believe the natural realm was in balance with, but not dominant over the spiritual realm as it is today. I believe God created this earth in a way that it sustains itself. I don't see God in this spiritual control room where he has his hands on every lever and is making every decision as to whether to send rain, send drought, send sun, send clouds . . .I believe all of that goes with the original order of how life operates in this realm as he created it.
So when a hurricane hits, I don't believe "God sent it". I believe God can stop it in response to the prayers of his kids . . .but I think the fact that it happens is just the nature of the realm we live in.
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 05, 2012, 05:46:04 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 05:16:22 PM
This is the work of the cross--that he might create in himself of the two one new man
Does this mean the house of Judah and the house of Israel are now combined into one new man, and that man is Ephraim, formerly known as the Gentile, the double portioned one, who gets not only the birthright blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but the sceptor of Judah, now both king and priest, the Israel of God in Christ?
My understanding of this is that the one new man is jew+gentile. The breaking down of the wall is between jew and gentile, so why would then the one new man be different? This is part of the revelation of the mystery, that no longer are the gentiles grafted in to the commonwealth of Israel, but the one new man is created, IMO
The one new man is both Jew and Gentile [the house of Judah and the house of Israel] combined in one person--the sum is greater than the parts--this one new man is/will be the manifested sons of God. And, this falls on the head of Ephraim [the house of Israel]. This is Ephraim's inheritance.
To the Jew Jesus says, Behold I leave your house desolate....
Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.--Mat 13:12
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 05:16:22 PM
...
Jews and Gentiles were formerly separated by a wall of partition--but now that wall is broken down--this refers to the Temple, somebody please expand on this, and to the laws which set apart the Jews from the Gentiles. wall of partition
partition means 'a fence, an enclosing barrier, a hedge round about, a partition'
There were two primary ways to become a Jew: (1) you could be a Jew by birth, by having Jewish parents, and Jewish ancestry; and (2) you could become a Jew by conversion, and by keeping the law, and by being circumcised (for males).
Male Jewish children were circumcised on the 8th day after birth.
In the temple complex there were two parts, separated by a low partition. The Gentiles were allowed into the outer section. The wall of partition in the temple separated the outer court from the temple itself. No man who was uncircumcised could pass through the gate in the partition to the inner section. But now, Christ is the temple, replacing the literal one made with hands. In him there is no wall of partition, separating Jew from Gentile.
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 05:16:22 PM
This is the work of the cross--that he might create in himself of the two one new man
Does this mean the house of Judah and the house of Israel are now combined into one new man, and that man is Ephraim, formerly known as the Gentile, the double portioned one, who gets not only the birthright blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but the sceptor of Judah, now both king and priest, the Israel of God in Christ?
No.
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 05:16:22 PM
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation
And everything has become new from God - he who reconciled us to himself in The Messiah, and he has given us the Ministry of the reconciliation.
--2 Cor 5:18, 19
The blessings of Jacob were passed on to Joseph, and his name "Israel" was given to both the sons of Joseph. In Matthew's gospel, Jesus is put in the role of Israel, when he was taken to Egypt.
Matthew 2:14-15
When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Matthew is quoting Hosea:
Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
There are many other subtle ways in which Matthew identified Jesus with Israel; see Jesus as Israel: The Typological Structure of Matthew's Gospel (http://www.leithart.com/pdf/jesus-as-israel-the-typological-structure-of-matthew-s-gospel.pdf). Peter J. Leithart. Or, in case that link does not work,
http://www.leithart.com/pdf/jesus-as-israel-the-typological-structure-of-matthew-s-gospel.pdf (http://www.leithart.com/pdf/jesus-as-israel-the-typological-structure-of-matthew-s-gospel.pdf)
The name "Israel" has been inherited by Jesus, too.
Doug
:cloud9: @ Molly.....Off topic, but on topic with your scripture......
This scripture is at work in feast of Tabernacles.....those that are pressing in are partaking of the hidden riches, the secret treasure of the pavillions, as the Spirit translates what is contained but not used (a void Word, ie. not employed by the Spirit = no life received out of it) out of their kingdoom of darkness (ignorance), and into the kingdom of light (understanding). A candle (light/understanding) hid under a bushel (bound by the carnal mind) gives off no illumination.
There is a "higher" form of the gift of tongues and interpretation. where the portion of tongues given to believer's originally that they were to press in to have increased, is being translated. This is part of the meaning of gold coin that was taken from the one, and given to the one with many.
This is a time to press in like no other. My :2c: Blessings...
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 05:52:57 PM
The one new man is both Jew and Gentile [the house of Judah and the house of Israel] combined in one person--the sum is greater than the parts--this one new man is/will be the manifested sons of God. And, this falls on the head of Ephraim [the house of Israel]. This is Ephraim's inheritance.
In the list of the tribes in Revelation 7, where 12,000 are sealed from each tribe, the tribe of Ephraim is not mentioned.
The ones that are mentioned are Juda, Reuben, Gad, Aser, Nephthalim, Manasses, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zabulon, Joseph, Benjamin; in that order. Dan and Ephraim are omitted.
The 12 tribes named and the numbers sealed are symbolic, and represent the whole church, of believers of every nationality and race, not a particular ethnic group. Sealing is mentioned by Paul:
Ephesians 1:12-14
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Doug
Quote from: Nathan on January 05, 2012, 05:46:20 PM
Quote from: CHB on January 05, 2012, 03:43:52 AM
Quote from: Nathan on January 04, 2012, 09:01:35 PM
Quote from: CHB on January 03, 2012, 11:45:38 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 03, 2012, 09:52:21 PM
Quote from: CHB on January 03, 2012, 08:17:38 PM
Nathan, what about the earthquake in Japan, the tsunami, tornadoes, and other happenings? You think God didn't have anything to do with those?
CHB
I think God shows up when people call on him. But I don't think he brings in chaos and destruction . . .seriously . . .what "is" God's nature? It's that age-old question "Why do bad things happen to good people?" The church puts out this vibe that if you become a Christian, life will be bliss forever more. But they seem to leave out the part that even Jesus stated "IN THIS WORLD . . you will have trials and tribulation . . ." The fact that THIS WORLD has wars and hurricanes has nothing to do with whether God sends them or not. It's not about the tribulations because IN THIS WORLD . . that's what THIS WORLD consists of. This is a world of death and decay . . .our bodies are influenced by that. Try as we will, we'll never be able to stop the process of death to these bodies we live in. The emphasis isn't on the manifestations of death, it's on the fact that Christ as overcome it all. When we pursue Christ, the miracle happens. We become illuminating life in the middle of a realm of death.
So, as to all the terrible things happening around us . . .no, I don't believe God sent any of it. I believe that is merely the nature of the realm that we live in. Every GOOD THING comes from above. The things God DOES send are things that induce life. There is no darkness in him, so why would we assume that darkness around us comes from him? There was a reason why he told Adam not to eat of that tree . . .it was the gateway into the realm in which we live. That's a whole other thread.
I could give a dozen scriptures showing otherwise but I know you wouldn't be convinced so I won't even try.
You said the cause of all of the disasters "is the nature of the realm that we live in". Pray tell, where do you think this realm originated from? If from him and to him are ALL things how can you eliminate the realm.
CHB
Well, you're dead on about one thing, quoting verses wouldn't convince me because as I just previously posted, it's not what Scripture says that motivates us, it's what "we think" it says that causes us to move or not move. And because I no longer rely on my own understanding of what I "think" it says, reading what someone quotes doesn't cut it for me anymore. It's not so much the Word written on pages that inspire us to move, it's the Word that's written in our hearts. A spark needs something to ignite before it can become a fire. The Word in me is the spark, the written word is the oil that ignites . . .when the two come together, it's a fire.
Reading Scripture doesn't automatically induce freedom. It takes the combination of the author of Scripture who lives IN me that breathes on the words already written that brings life to the pages. And the verses that may bring life to me, may have no meaning at all to you . . .it's not because the fire went out, but it's because our relationships are in different places.
As to the latter portion of your post . . .who said anything about eliminating realms??? You're twisting things around on me. I never said anything about the removal of a realm. I did say the reversal, but not the removal.
Well, the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked above all things, who can know it?
Nathan, I think you misunderstood what I said about the realm. I wasn't talking about destroying or removing the realm. What I said and meant was, if from him and to him are ALL things how can you eliminate the realm from that. You said all of the disasters happened because of the realm that we live in. God created the realm. No matter from what point you start it always comes back to God.
CHB
Yeah, everything comes back to God on one level or another . . .but not all things are "directly" sent by God as many would think. If I build a house in a flood zone and the river goes out of it's banks and takes my house . . .am I to understand then that God took my house? Or would it be because those are the consequences from "my" bad choices. I believe of course that God created the heavens AND THE EARTH . . .and I also believe that the earth was made "for" man to inhabit. But I "don't" believe the earth as we know it now is the same earth that he originally created in the sense that I believe the natural realm was in balance with, but not dominant over the spiritual realm as it is today. I believe God created this earth in a way that it sustains itself. I don't see God in this spiritual control room where he has his hands on every lever and is making every decision as to whether to send rain, send drought, send sun, send clouds . . .I believe all of that goes with the original order of how life operates in this realm as he created it.
So when a hurricane hits, I don't believe "God sent it". I believe God can stop it in response to the prayers of his kids . . .but I think the fact that it happens is just the nature of the realm we live in.
To make it short. The way I see this is. God knows all things from beginning to end. He created ALL things. He made the universe and all that is in it to work the way he planned it from beginning to end. There is no variation on one thing. The moon comes up every night and the stars shine right on schedule because that is the way he planned it. God don't have to sit and watch to see what he needs to do next because it was planned from the beginning.
You are right when you say this. "I believe God created this earth in a way that it sustains itself". You call it the nature of the realm, I call it "God working all thing after the councel of his will". Yes, God created this realm to sustain itself, with all of the tornadoes, earthquakes, and everything else that happens within it.
If you build your house in a flood zone,... don't know why a smart guy like you would do that though... except that you were given certain choices and this is what you chose from the choices that God set before you. He gives us choices and all the functions of the body and enviorment cause us to chose what we chose, only thing is we tend to think we are doing it all on our own, when in reality we are not.
You said not all things are directly sent by God and that is true, I believe God created Satan to handle those things that God isn't directly handling. He is working behind the scenes so to speak. Sometimes God works directly and sometimes he works indirectly with man. Think of it like a forman, I don't build your house but I hire someone else to do it for me. There are forces out there that we cannot see.
CHB
Quote from: DougIn the list of the tribes in Revelation 7, where 12,000 are sealed from each tribe, the tribe of Ephraim is not mentioned.
And, why is Ephraim not mentioned? Ephraim, who receives all the birthright blessings, the double portion, the sceptor of Judah. Ephraim who represents the northern ten tribes, the lost sheep of the house of Israel, the great Gentile Christian nations. Ephraim who represents the manifested sons of God.
Why is he not present in the book of Revelation.
Maybe because he's gone? The rapture? The redemption of the body?
Ephraim is my firstborn son Jer 31:9
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 05, 2012, 05:46:04 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 05:16:22 PM
This is the work of the cross--that he might create in himself of the two one new man
Does this mean the house of Judah and the house of Israel are now combined into one new man, and that man is Ephraim, formerly known as the Gentile, the double portioned one, who gets not only the birthright blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but the sceptor of Judah, now both king and priest, the Israel of God in Christ?
My understanding of this is that the one new man is jew+gentile. The breaking down of the wall is between jew and gentile, so why would then the one new man be different? This is part of the revelation of the mystery, that no longer are the gentiles grafted in to the commonwealth of Israel, but the one new man is created, IMO
Do you have a scripture reference to support the idea that the gentile believers are no longer grafted in to the commonwealth of Israel?
Doug
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 07:12:09 PM
Quote from: DougIn the list of the tribes in Revelation 7, where 12,000 are sealed from each tribe, the tribe of Ephraim is not mentioned.
And, why is Ephraim not mentioned? Ephraim, who receives all the birthright blessings, the double portion, the sceptor of Judah. Ephraim who represents the lost tribes, the lost sheep of the house of Israel, the great Gentile Christian nations. Ephraim who represents the manifested sons of God.
Why is he not present in the book of Revelation.
Maybe because he's gone? The rapture? The redemption of the body?
Ephraim is my firstborn son Jer 31:9
That won't work, Molly, as the 144,000 are the
firstfruits.
"These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." [Revelation 14:4]
Doug
Quote from: CHB on January 05, 2012, 06:55:51 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 05, 2012, 05:46:20 PM
Quote from: CHB on January 05, 2012, 03:43:52 AM
Quote from: Nathan on January 04, 2012, 09:01:35 PM
Quote from: CHB on January 03, 2012, 11:45:38 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 03, 2012, 09:52:21 PM
Quote from: CHB on January 03, 2012, 08:17:38 PM
Nathan, what about the earthquake in Japan, the tsunami, tornadoes, and other happenings? You think God didn't have anything to do with those?
CHB
I think God shows up when people call on him. But I don't think he brings in chaos and destruction . . .seriously . . .what "is" God's nature? It's that age-old question "Why do bad things happen to good people?" The church puts out this vibe that if you become a Christian, life will be bliss forever more. But they seem to leave out the part that even Jesus stated "IN THIS WORLD . . you will have trials and tribulation . . ." The fact that THIS WORLD has wars and hurricanes has nothing to do with whether God sends them or not. It's not about the tribulations because IN THIS WORLD . . that's what THIS WORLD consists of. This is a world of death and decay . . .our bodies are influenced by that. Try as we will, we'll never be able to stop the process of death to these bodies we live in. The emphasis isn't on the manifestations of death, it's on the fact that Christ as overcome it all. When we pursue Christ, the miracle happens. We become illuminating life in the middle of a realm of death.
So, as to all the terrible things happening around us . . .no, I don't believe God sent any of it. I believe that is merely the nature of the realm that we live in. Every GOOD THING comes from above. The things God DOES send are things that induce life. There is no darkness in him, so why would we assume that darkness around us comes from him? There was a reason why he told Adam not to eat of that tree . . .it was the gateway into the realm in which we live. That's a whole other thread.
I could give a dozen scriptures showing otherwise but I know you wouldn't be convinced so I won't even try.
You said the cause of all of the disasters "is the nature of the realm that we live in". Pray tell, where do you think this realm originated from? If from him and to him are ALL things how can you eliminate the realm.
CHB
Well, you're dead on about one thing, quoting verses wouldn't convince me because as I just previously posted, it's not what Scripture says that motivates us, it's what "we think" it says that causes us to move or not move. And because I no longer rely on my own understanding of what I "think" it says, reading what someone quotes doesn't cut it for me anymore. It's not so much the Word written on pages that inspire us to move, it's the Word that's written in our hearts. A spark needs something to ignite before it can become a fire. The Word in me is the spark, the written word is the oil that ignites . . .when the two come together, it's a fire.
Reading Scripture doesn't automatically induce freedom. It takes the combination of the author of Scripture who lives IN me that breathes on the words already written that brings life to the pages. And the verses that may bring life to me, may have no meaning at all to you . . .it's not because the fire went out, but it's because our relationships are in different places.
As to the latter portion of your post . . .who said anything about eliminating realms??? You're twisting things around on me. I never said anything about the removal of a realm. I did say the reversal, but not the removal.
Well, the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked above all things, who can know it?
Nathan, I think you misunderstood what I said about the realm. I wasn't talking about destroying or removing the realm. What I said and meant was, if from him and to him are ALL things how can you eliminate the realm from that. You said all of the disasters happened because of the realm that we live in. God created the realm. No matter from what point you start it always comes back to God.
CHB
Yeah, everything comes back to God on one level or another . . .but not all things are "directly" sent by God as many would think. If I build a house in a flood zone and the river goes out of it's banks and takes my house . . .am I to understand then that God took my house? Or would it be because those are the consequences from "my" bad choices. I believe of course that God created the heavens AND THE EARTH . . .and I also believe that the earth was made "for" man to inhabit. But I "don't" believe the earth as we know it now is the same earth that he originally created in the sense that I believe the natural realm was in balance with, but not dominant over the spiritual realm as it is today. I believe God created this earth in a way that it sustains itself. I don't see God in this spiritual control room where he has his hands on every lever and is making every decision as to whether to send rain, send drought, send sun, send clouds . . .I believe all of that goes with the original order of how life operates in this realm as he created it.
So when a hurricane hits, I don't believe "God sent it". I believe God can stop it in response to the prayers of his kids . . .but I think the fact that it happens is just the nature of the realm we live in.
To make it short. The way I see this is. God knows all things from beginning to end. He created ALL things. He made the universe and all that is in it to work the way he planned it from beginning to end. There is no variation on one thing. The moon comes up every night and the stars shine right on schedule because that is the way he planned it. God don't have to sit and watch to see what he needs to do next because it was planned from the beginning.
You are right when you say this. "I believe God created this earth in a way that it sustains itself". You call it the nature of the realm, I call it "God working all thing after the councel of his will". Yes, God created this realm to sustain itself, with all of the tornadoes, earthquakes, and everything else that happens within it.
If you build your house in a flood zone,... don't know why a smart guy like you would do that though... except that you were given certain choices and this is what you chose from the choices that God set before you. He gives us choices and all the functions of the body and enviorment cause us to chose what we chose, only thing is we tend to think we are doing it all on our own, when in reality we are not.
You said not all things are directly sent by God and that is true, I believe God created Satan to handle those things that God isn't directly handling. He is working behind the scenes so to speak. Sometimes God works directly and sometimes he works indirectly with man. Think of it like a forman, I don't build your house but I hire someone else to do it for me. There are forces out there that we cannot see.
CHB
So . . .satan is even doing the will of the Father then. The torturing of people is God's will?? The murdering . . .all that ugly stuff that is accredited to the devil . . .God set that up from the beginning then?
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 07:12:09 PM
Quote from: DougIn the list of the tribes in Revelation 7, where 12,000 are sealed from each tribe, the tribe of Ephraim is not mentioned.
And, why is Ephraim not mentioned? Ephraim, who receives all the birthright blessings, the double portion, the sceptor of Judah. Ephraim who represents the northern ten tribes, the lost sheep of the house of Israel, the great Gentile Christian nations. Ephraim who represents the manifested sons of God.
Why is he not present in the book of Revelation.
Maybe because he's gone? The rapture? The redemption of the body?
Ephraim is my firstborn son Jer 31:9
Ephraim is part of Joseph
Ezekiel 37:16
Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:
Ezekiel 37:19
Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
Quote from: Doug on January 05, 2012, 07:16:30 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 07:12:09 PM
Quote from: DougIn the list of the tribes in Revelation 7, where 12,000 are sealed from each tribe, the tribe of Ephraim is not mentioned.
And, why is Ephraim not mentioned? Ephraim, who receives all the birthright blessings, the double portion, the sceptor of Judah. Ephraim who represents the lost tribes, the lost sheep of the house of Israel, the great Gentile Christian nations. Ephraim who represents the manifested sons of God.
Why is he not present in the book of Revelation.
Maybe because he's gone? The rapture? The redemption of the body?
Ephraim is my firstborn son Jer 31:9
That won't work, Molly, as the 144,000 are the firstfruits.
"These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." [Revelation 14:4]
Doug
So you are saying the sealing of the twelve tribes in Revelation represents the sealing of the whole church, the Israel of God?
But, Joseph is mentioned, not Ephraim.
Joseph was never mentioned in the apportionment of land to the tribes of Israel. It was always Ephraim and Manasseh mentioned in Joseph's place.
But, here Joseph is mentioned again--maybe then to show that the inheritance is not a piece of land but spiritual?
Quote from: thinktank on January 05, 2012, 07:20:23 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 07:12:09 PM
Quote from: DougIn the list of the tribes in Revelation 7, where 12,000 are sealed from each tribe, the tribe of Ephraim is not mentioned.
And, why is Ephraim not mentioned? Ephraim, who receives all the birthright blessings, the double portion, the sceptor of Judah. Ephraim who represents the northern ten tribes, the lost sheep of the house of Israel, the great Gentile Christian nations. Ephraim who represents the manifested sons of God.
Why is he not present in the book of Revelation.
Maybe because he's gone? The rapture? The redemption of the body?
Ephraim is my firstborn son Jer 31:9
Ephraim is part of Joseph
Ezekiel 37:16
Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:
Ezekiel 37:19
Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
Yes, Ephraim represents the house of Israel, the northern ten tribes, because Ephraim was the largest tribe and the ruler of the northern ten tribes.
Plus, the birthright blessing comes through Ephraim.
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 07:27:33 PM
Quote from: Doug on January 05, 2012, 07:16:30 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 07:12:09 PM
Quote from: DougIn the list of the tribes in Revelation 7, where 12,000 are sealed from each tribe, the tribe of Ephraim is not mentioned.
And, why is Ephraim not mentioned? Ephraim, who receives all the birthright blessings, the double portion, the sceptor of Judah. Ephraim who represents the lost tribes, the lost sheep of the house of Israel, the great Gentile Christian nations. Ephraim who represents the manifested sons of God.
Why is he not present in the book of Revelation.
Maybe because he's gone? The rapture? The redemption of the body?
Ephraim is my firstborn son Jer 31:9
That won't work, Molly, as the 144,000 are the firstfruits.
"These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." [Revelation 14:4]
Doug
So you are saying the sealing of the twelve tribes in Revelation represents the sealing of the whole church, the Israel of God?
But, Joseph is mentioned, not Ephraim.
Joseph was never mentioned in the apportionment of land to the tribes of Israel. It was always Ephraim and Manasseh mentioned in Joseph's place.
But, here Joseph is mentioned again--maybe then to show that the inheritance is not a piece of land but spiritual?
Maybe that is the answer!
Very good. :thumbsup:
Doug
But, again, maybe Ephraim is not nemtioned in the book of Revelation because he has already grown up into the head, even Christ, having received all the blessings of Joseph and the sure mercies of David.
And Joseph dreamed a dream, and he told it his brethren: and they hated him yet the more.
6And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed:
7For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.
8And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.
--Gen 37
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 07:44:20 PM
But, again, maybe Ephraim is not nemtioned in the book of Revelation because he has already grown up into the head, even Christ, having received all the blessings of Joseph and the sure mercies of David.
I don't think so, as the promise of a Messiah was made particularly to the tribe of Judah, and to David.
Genesis 49:10
The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Only in Christ are all the various promises combined; royalty, priesthood, the land, spiritual blessings.
Doug
Quote from: DougNo.
Ok. Look at it this way. To make a long story short and in no way do it justice,
The birthright blessings and covenant of Abraham is split by Jacob. He gives the sceptor of rulership to the tribe of Judah and the rest of the inheritance to Ephraim, Joseph's youngest son.
Then the twelve tribes are split into the southern kingdom, the house of Judah, and the northern kingdom, the house of Israel.
The house of Israel is also called by Ephraim's name, and never return to the land.
God has divorced them and calls them a NO PEOPLE, NOT MY PEOPLE.
But, he prophecies over them [book of Hosea] that in the same place they were called not my people, they shall be called sons of the living God.
Meanwhile, God does not divorce the house of Judah, and the house of Judah returns to the land and rebuild the Temple.
But, the house of Judah will only hold the sceptor until Shiloh comes. When Jesus comes HE TAKES THE SCEPTOR FROM JUDAH AND GIVES IT TO THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL [also known as the Gentiles by this time, having gone missing 800 years before Christ comes].
Thus, fulfilling the prophecy in Hosea.
How does Jesus do this?
He marries the church.
How does he marry the church if God has already divorced the house of Israel?
Leviticus tells us a divorced woman cannot remarry until her husband dies.
Solution: he dies, freeing the woman to remarry, and kicking in the inheritance blessings at the same time to the inheritor of the covenant--Ephraim.
So now we have all the blessings and covenant with Abraham given to and revealed in one new man, the church of Christ, the Israel of God.
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 08:06:59 PM
Quote from: DougNo.
Ok. Look at it this way. To make a long story short and in no way do it justice,
The birthright blessings and covenant of Abraham is split by Jacob. He gives the sceptor of rulership to the tribe of Judah and the rest of the inheritance to Ephraim, Joseph's youngest son.
Then the twelve tribes are split into the southern kingdom, the house of Judah, and the northern kingdom, the house of Israel.
The house of Israel is also called by Ephraim's name, and never return to the land.
God has divorced them and calls them a NO PEOPLE, NOT MY PEOPLE.
But, he prophecies over them [book of Hosea] that in the same place they were called not my people, they shall be called sons of the living God.
Meanwhile, God does not divorce the house of Judah, and the house of Judah returns to the land and rebuild the Temple.
But, the house of Judah will only hold the sceptor until Shiloh comes. When Jesus comes HE TAKES THE SCEPTOR FROM JUDAH AND GIVES IT TO THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL [also known as the Gentiles by this time, having gone missing 800 years before Christ comes].
Thus, fulfilling the prophecy in Hosea.
How does Jesus do this?
He marries the church.
How does he marry the church if God has already divorced the house of Israel?
Leviticus tells us a divorced woman cannot remarry until her husband dies.
Solution: he dies, freeing the woman to remarry, and kicking in the inheritance blessings at the same time to the inheritor of the covenant--Ephraim.
So now we have all the blessings and covenant with Abraham given to and revealed in one new man, the church of Christ, the Israel of God.
Have you ever looked to see how many times the name "Ephraim" is mentioned in the NT?
It occurs but once, in John 11:54, where it is the name of a city.
John 11:54
Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples.If "Ephraim" is really as prominent as you allege, surely the name would be mentioned more frequently, and it would be applied to the tribe of Ephraim, IMO, not merely to a settlement at the edge of the desert.
Doug
You're missing the point, Doug.
Ephraim is only used to identify who will receive the covenant blessings, that is, the house of Israel.
Ephraim the name means double fruit.
He is symbolic of the double portioned one.
14And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.
15And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
16The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
17And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
18And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
19And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
20And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh
--Gen 48
HERE JACOB PLACES HIS RIGHT HAND ON EPHRAIM'S HEAD AND GIVES HIM THE BIRTHRIGHT BLESSINGS OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC, AND JACOB. HE GIVES EPHRAIM HIS NAME ISRAEL. AND HE SAYS THAT EPHRAIM'S 'SEED' SHALL BECOME THE FULNESS OF THE GENTILES [A MULTITUDE OF NATIONS].
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 08:46:29 PM
You're missing the point, Doug.
Ephraim is only used to identify who will receive the covenant blessings, that is, the house of Israel.
Ephraim the name means double fruit.
He is symbolic of the double portioned one.
I doubt that being fruitful in spiritual things depends upon ones' ethnic heritage. It is connected to faith.
Doug
Quote from: Doug on January 05, 2012, 09:03:46 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 08:46:29 PM
You're missing the point, Doug.
Ephraim is only used to identify who will receive the covenant blessings, that is, the house of Israel.
Ephraim the name means double fruit.
He is symbolic of the double portioned one.
I doubt that being fruitful in spiritual things depends upon ones' ethnic heritage. It is connected to faith.
Doug
And you consider that, although Ephraim ireceives the covenant blessing including that his seed shall become the fulness of the Gentiles who are called by the name Israel, it means nothing?
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 09:11:53 PM
Quote from: Doug on January 05, 2012, 09:03:46 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 08:46:29 PM
You're missing the point, Doug.
Ephraim is only used to identify who will receive the covenant blessings, that is, the house of Israel.
Ephraim the name means double fruit.
He is symbolic of the double portioned one.
I doubt that being fruitful in spiritual things depends upon ones' ethnic heritage. It is connected to faith.
Doug
And you consider that, although Ephraim ireceives the covenant blessing including that his seed shall become the fulness of the Gentiles who are called by the name Israel, it means nothing?
Where does it say Ephraim is Israel Molly?
You also ignored this scripture I gave earlier.
Ezekiel 37:19
Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
Here Eprahim is named and his fellows the tribes of Israel.
So Ephraim and the tribes of Israel are seperate.
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 09:11:53 PM
Quote from: Doug on January 05, 2012, 09:03:46 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 08:46:29 PM
You're missing the point, Doug.
Ephraim is only used to identify who will receive the covenant blessings, that is, the house of Israel.
Ephraim the name means double fruit.
He is symbolic of the double portioned one.
I doubt that being fruitful in spiritual things depends upon ones' ethnic heritage. It is connected to faith.
Doug
And you consider that, although Ephraim ireceives the covenant blessing including that his seed shall become the fulness of the Gentiles who are called by the name Israel, it means nothing?
Can you provide a scripture reference to support that?
Jesus inherits all the nations the Gentiles.
Psalm 2:7-9
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Doug
Quote from: Doug on January 05, 2012, 09:25:06 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 09:11:53 PM
Quote from: Doug on January 05, 2012, 09:03:46 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 08:46:29 PM
You're missing the point, Doug.
Ephraim is only used to identify who will receive the covenant blessings, that is, the house of Israel.
Ephraim the name means double fruit.
He is symbolic of the double portioned one.
I doubt that being fruitful in spiritual things depends upon ones' ethnic heritage. It is connected to faith.
Doug
And you consider that, although Ephraim ireceives the covenant blessing including that his seed shall become the fulness of the Gentiles who are called by the name Israel, it means nothing?
Can you provide a scripture reference to support that?
Jesus inherits all the nations the Gentiles.
Psalm 2:7-9
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Doug
I just did. Gen 48.
There you go --it's saying the same thing--the Gentiles inherit Christ--God is the inheritance of the Levite priests, that's why they didn't get any land, and the inheritance of God and Christ is the Gentiles, called Isreal.
But, the new covenant is a will which goes into effect when the testator [God] dies.
What are we co-inheritors of Christ for? What do we inherit?
Co-inheritors, Christ in us, the hope of glory.
Christ made the covenant with himself [his seed] so that when he dies, he will inherit.
Quote from: Doug on January 05, 2012, 07:12:51 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 05, 2012, 05:46:04 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 05:16:22 PM
This is the work of the cross--that he might create in himself of the two one new man
Does this mean the house of Judah and the house of Israel are now combined into one new man, and that man is Ephraim, formerly known as the Gentile, the double portioned one, who gets not only the birthright blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but the sceptor of Judah, now both king and priest, the Israel of God in Christ?
My understanding of this is that the one new man is jew+gentile. The breaking down of the wall is between jew and gentile, so why would then the one new man be different? This is part of the revelation of the mystery, that no longer are the gentiles grafted in to the commonwealth of Israel, but the one new man is created, IMO
Do you have a scripture reference to support the idea that the gentile believers are no longer grafted in to the commonwealth of Israel?
Doug
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess033.htm
Quote from: Nathan
So . . .satan is even doing the will of the Father then. The torturing of people is God's will?? The murdering . . .all that ugly stuff that is accredited to the devil . . .God set that up from the beginning then?
Seems we have two different discussions going on here and neither of them are going anywhere.
Of course. God uses evil to accomplish his purpose throughout the universe.
Wouldn't you rather think that God has determined everything before it's time rather than think that God created us all, knowing everything that was going to happen yet left us here to figure it all out for ourselves? Thinking he knows it all yet watches us destroy ourselves with our own stupidy with no intention of lifting a finger unless we ask him.
This will be my last post on this subject. All of this has been said before.
CHB
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 05, 2012, 10:02:31 PM
Quote from: Doug on January 05, 2012, 07:12:51 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 05, 2012, 05:46:04 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 05:16:22 PM
This is the work of the cross--that he might create in himself of the two one new man
Does this mean the house of Judah and the house of Israel are now combined into one new man, and that man is Ephraim, formerly known as the Gentile, the double portioned one, who gets not only the birthright blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but the sceptor of Judah, now both king and priest, the Israel of God in Christ?
My understanding of this is that the one new man is jew+gentile. The breaking down of the wall is between jew and gentile, so why would then the one new man be different? This is part of the revelation of the mystery, that no longer are the gentiles grafted in to the commonwealth of Israel, but the one new man is created, IMO
Do you have a scripture reference to support the idea that the gentile believers are no longer grafted in to the commonwealth of Israel?
Doug
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess033.htm
He says some wonderful things here, but then I think he takes a wrong turn. Don't forget the meaning of the word, Israel,
he will rule as God. You can't throw out the whole Old Testament. But, I listed here some of the things he said that I like. It's a beautiful teaching, and shows what God planned all along.
The Father no longer reckons us as being part of the Family of Man (Israelites or Gentiles). We are now accounted to be the very members of the Family of God in heaven and sitting (legally) on the same throne as Christ at God's right hand in heaven (Ephesians 2:6).
This now gives each of us a divine status.The central teaching of "the Mystery" is that all Christians have Christ in them and conversely that all Christians are also in Christ. Being "in Christ" now places us in a very high position within the heavenlies.
"In whom [in Christ] also you are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ."
Colossians 2:1
So, when Christ was circumcised as a baby of eight days, you and I — male or female makes no difference for this is a religious and legal principle being discussed — were also reckoned as being circumcised in the eyes of the Father at the same time. That circumcision of Christ was imputed to each of us because we were then "in Christ" and He "in us."
Indeed, after Christ's birth we continued in a legal sense to be "in Christ" for the next thirty years, until the time of His baptism by John the Baptist. And what happened then according to Paul? That is when we were "buried with him in baptism" (Colossians 2:12). The truth is, Paul was telling the Colossians (and all of us) that when John the Baptist was baptizing Christ for sins, it was not Christ's sins that were being washed away, because He had none personally. It was our sins being washed away which were then being carried by Christ. Since we were then "in Christ," we were accounted by the Father as being personally baptized when John baptized Christ.
"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me."
Galatians 2:20
This means that when Christ died by crucifixion, the Father also imputed Christ's death to all of us. We died with Him since God then made us to be "in Christ." When Christ died, all of us legally died with him (2 Corinthians 5:14) as a substitute for each of us individually in the world. But it does not end there.
When Christ was risen from the dead three days later, we were, in a legal sense, also risen from the dead with Him! As Paul taught,
"If you then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right hand of God."
Colossians 3:1
That is right! When Christ was risen from the dead, the Father legally reckoned that we also rose from the dead at that time. Not only that, since after death all people are destined to be resurrected and go to the judgment (Hebrews 9:27–28), so likewise Christ went through a judgment after His death and passed through His judgment triumphantly. And what did the Father do with Christ after He passed His judgment with only perfect obedience and no sins on His records? The Father told Christ to come forward and sit on His right hand.
You and I were "in Christ" at that time also. In the eyes of the Father each of us went triumphantly with Christ through the judgment and sat down with Him on the right hand of the Father Himself. You and I were "in Christ" at that time and are presently sitting in Christ (in a legal sense at this moment) on that very throne. Paul said,
"[God] has quickened us together [made us alive together] with Christ (by grace are you saved), and has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus."
Ephesians 2:5–
Our only mediator is Christ and we are presently reckoned to be in Him. Since Christ is the firstborn, each of us "in Christ" is now called a firstborn one (Hebrews 12:23 where the word "firstborn" is plural in the original). God has no "secondborn" children.
We are all reckoned (as is Christ) firstborn children in the eyes of the Father because — once again — we are all "in Christ." This gives us the same divine status now enjoyed by our Lord Himself. True, the Father and Christ will always have superiority over us for many reasons, but we are still destined to be the very members of the Family of God as Christ is now the firstborn Son of God. This is what salvation "in Christ" means. Salvation is not to be a spiritual "Israelite,"
it is to be a part of the Deity. It is to become a part of God. This is what "the Mystery" teaches.
Our ultimate destiny is to become glorified divine Children of God with the same glory that the Father and Christ have now. And this dheaven.estiny was given to us when we were saved "in Christ" even from before the foundation of the physical cosmos (2 Timothy 1:9). That is how long God and Christ have loved and cared for us.
We are destined to be in the very Godhead...When people read in the New Testament of those who may not make it into their inheritance (and there are many such verses), it always refers to the "Kingdom phase" of salvation, NOT SALVATION ITSELF! Indeed, salvation is absolutely secured to the human race through the works and efforts of Jesus Christ. All men will indeed be saved (1 Timothy 2:4), but Paul said the totality of mankind will only be granted a salvation "in its own seasons" (1 Timothy 2:6, see original Greek). God awards His salvation at various times.
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 05, 2012, 10:02:31 PM
Quote from: Doug on January 05, 2012, 07:12:51 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 05, 2012, 05:46:04 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 05:16:22 PM
This is the work of the cross--that he might create in himself of the two one new man
Does this mean the house of Judah and the house of Israel are now combined into one new man, and that man is Ephraim, formerly known as the Gentile, the double portioned one, who gets not only the birthright blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but the sceptor of Judah, now both king and priest, the Israel of God in Christ?
My understanding of this is that the one new man is jew+gentile. The breaking down of the wall is between jew and gentile, so why would then the one new man be different? This is part of the revelation of the mystery, that no longer are the gentiles grafted in to the commonwealth of Israel, but the one new man is created, IMO
Do you have a scripture reference to support the idea that the gentile believers are no longer grafted in to the commonwealth of Israel?
Doug
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess033.htm
I did not find any scriptures in Martin's article saying that gentile believers are no longer grafted in to the commonwealth of Israel, or rather the olive tree that Paul discusses in Romans 11. I take it then, there is no scriptural basis for the statement.
Doug
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 11:49:56 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 05, 2012, 10:02:31 PM
Quote from: Doug on January 05, 2012, 07:12:51 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 05, 2012, 05:46:04 PM
My understanding of this is that the one new man is jew+gentile. The breaking down of the wall is between jew and gentile, so why would then the one new man be different? This is part of the revelation of the mystery, that no longer are the gentiles grafted in to the commonwealth of Israel, but the one new man is created, IMO
Do you have a scripture reference to support the idea that the gentile believers are no longer grafted in to the commonwealth of Israel?
Doug
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess033.htm
He says some wonderful things here, but then I think he takes a wrong turn. Don't forget the meaning of the word, Israel, he will rule as God. You can't throw out the whole Old Testament.
Not just the Old Testament. His doctrine undermines important teachings in the New Testament too. Martin claims there is no need for us to enter into the New Covenant, which is also called the New Testament, the words for "covenant" and "testament" being the same in Greek (as I understand it).
But then, what about these verses?
Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Jesus is called the "mediator" of the covenant; in Malachi he is the "messenger of the covenant."
Malachi 3:1
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
How will Martin explain his teaching, when he has to face the "mediator of the covenant"?
Hebrews 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 12:24
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
It is also called "the everlasting covenant." How can it become obsolete?
Hebrews 13:20-21
Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
And finally, Paul called himself a minister of the new covenant.
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
As mentioned already, the same word is used for "covenant" and "testament."
In Scripture, covenants are represented by mountains. Sinai is an example. And, when Jesus said "flee to the mountains," he meant the mountains that represent promises and covenants of God! He did not mean flee to save your life, because he also said, "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it." [Mark 8:35] This saying occurs four times.
Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Abandon unfounded speculations, and flee to the mountains, that represent the promises of God under the New Covenant!
Doug
Quote from: Doug on January 06, 2012, 02:13:22 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 11:49:56 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 05, 2012, 10:02:31 PM
Quote from: Doug on January 05, 2012, 07:12:51 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 05, 2012, 05:46:04 PM
My understanding of this is that the one new man is jew+gentile. The breaking down of the wall is between jew and gentile, so why would then the one new man be different? This is part of the revelation of the mystery, that no longer are the gentiles grafted in to the commonwealth of Israel, but the one new man is created, IMO
Do you have a scripture reference to support the idea that the gentile believers are no longer grafted in to the commonwealth of Israel?
Doug
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess033.htm
He says some wonderful things here, but then I think he takes a wrong turn. Don't forget the meaning of the word, Israel, he will rule as God. You can't throw out the whole Old Testament.
Not just the Old Testament. His doctrine undermines important teachings in the New Testament too. Martin claims there is no need for us to enter into the New Covenant, which is also called the New Testament, the words for "covenant" and "testament" being the same in Greek (as I understand it).
But then, what about these verses?
Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Jesus is called the "mediator" of the covenant; in Malachi he is the "messenger of the covenant."
Malachi 3:1
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
How will Martin explain his teaching, when he has to face the "mediator of the covenant"?
Hebrews 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 12:24
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
It is also called "the everlasting covenant." How can it become obsolete?
Hebrews 13:20-21
Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
And finally, Paul called himself a minister of the new covenant.
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
As mentioned already, the same word is used for "covenant" and "testament."
In Scripture, covenants are represented by mountains. Sinai is an example. And, when Jesus said "flee to the mountains," he meant the mountains that represent promises and covenants of God! He did not mean flee to save your life, because he also said, "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it." [Mark 8:35] This saying occurs four times.
Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Abandon unfounded speculations, and flee to the mountains, that represent the promises of God under the New Covenant!
Doug
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Doug on January 06, 2012, 02:13:22 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 05, 2012, 11:49:56 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 05, 2012, 10:02:31 PM
Quote from: Doug on January 05, 2012, 07:12:51 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 05, 2012, 05:46:04 PM
My understanding of this is that the one new man is jew+gentile. The breaking down of the wall is between jew and gentile, so why would then the one new man be different? This is part of the revelation of the mystery, that no longer are the gentiles grafted in to the commonwealth of Israel, but the one new man is created, IMO
Do you have a scripture reference to support the idea that the gentile believers are no longer grafted in to the commonwealth of Israel?
Doug
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess033.htm
He says some wonderful things here, but then I think he takes a wrong turn. Don't forget the meaning of the word, Israel, he will rule as God. You can't throw out the whole Old Testament.
Not just the Old Testament. His doctrine undermines important teachings in the New Testament too. Martin claims there is no need for us to enter into the New Covenant, which is also called the New Testament, the words for "covenant" and "testament" being the same in Greek (as I understand it).
But then, what about these verses?
Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Jesus is called the "mediator" of the covenant; in Malachi he is the "messenger of the covenant."
Malachi 3:1
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
How will Martin explain his teaching, when he has to face the "mediator of the covenant"?
Hebrews 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 12:24
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
It is also called "the everlasting covenant." How can it become obsolete?
Hebrews 13:20-21
Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
And finally, Paul called himself a minister of the new covenant.
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
As mentioned already, the same word is used for "covenant" and "testament."
In Scripture, covenants are represented by mountains. Sinai is an example. And, when Jesus said "flee to the mountains," he meant the mountains that represent promises and covenants of God! He did not mean flee to save your life, because he also said, "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it." [Mark 8:35] This saying occurs four times.
Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Abandon unfounded speculations, and flee to the mountains, that represent the promises of God under the New Covenant!
Doug
I don't know if he's saying to abandon the NC, but that the mystery is a higher and fuller revelation than what was laid out in the NC. Maybe he is, if thats the case I don't agree with him on that, its been a while since I've read that article. Also I'm pretty sure he never says to throw the old testament out, he quotes it all the time.
I see it like the passover is kind of representing the OC. NC is pentecost. And mystery is Tabernacles.
Also everlasting doesn't mean everlasting, or else we can't have our cake and eat it too as UR's, that age (may have) ended with the fall of Jerusalem, and the mystery was instituted right around that time, the NC was given to the house of Israel right? Literal Israel means nothing anymore in God's economy (at least for this age), so maybe the NC was given to Literal Israel, and those grafted in.
When Paul says he's a minister of the NC in Corinthians, that is supposed to have been written before the mystery came in. Also the last chapter in Romans (containing the mystery) may have been added, which is ELM's thesis. Here's the notes from the NET bible
c There is a considerable degree of difference among the mss regarding the presence and position of the doxology of 16:25-27. Five situations present themselves from the ms tradition. The doxology is found in the ancient witnesses in three separate locations: (1) here after 16:23 (Ì61 א B C D 81 365 630 1739 2464 al co), (2) after 14:23 (Ψ 0209vid Ï), or (3) after 15:33 (Ì46). The situation is further complicated in that some of the mss have these verses in two places: (4) after 14:23 and after 16:23 (A P 33 104 2805 pc); or (5) after 14:23 and after 15:33 (1506). The uncertain position of the doxology might suggest that it was added by later scribes. But since the mss containing the doxology are so early and widespread, it almost certainly belongs in Romans; it is only a question of where. Further, the witnesses that omit the doxology are few: F G 629 Hiermss. (And of these, G has a blank space of several lines large enough for the doxology to belong there.) Only two positions (after chapter 14 only and at the end of the letter only) deserve particular notice because the situation of the mss showing the doxology in two places dates back to the 5th century. Later copyists, faced with the doxology in two different places in the mss they knew, may have decided to copy the doxology in both places, since they were unwilling to consciously omit any text. Because the textual disruption of the doxology is so early,
TCGNT 472 suggests two possibilities: either (1) that Paul may have sent two different copies of Romans – a copy lacking chapter 16 and a copy with the full text of the epistle as we now have it, or (2) Marcion or some of his followers circulated a shortened form of the epistle that lacked chapters 15 and 16. Those mss that lacked chapters 15-16 would naturally conclude with some kind of doxology after chapter 14. On the other hand, H. Gamble (The Textual History of the Letter to the Romans [SD], 123-32) argues for the position of the doxology at 14:23, since to put the doxology at 16:25 would violate Paul's normal pattern of a grace-benediction at the close of the letter. Gamble further argues for the inclusion of 16:24, since the mss that put the doxology after chapter 14 almost always present 16:24 as the letter's closing, whereas most of the mss that put the doxology at its traditional position drop 16:24, perhaps because it would be redundant before 16:25-27. A decision is difficult, but the weight of external evidence, since it is both early and geographically widespread, suggests that the doxology belongs here after 16:23. For a full discussion, see TCGNT470-73.
I don't really know, I do think there is a difference between the earliest church practices and the later church. How about this, one Lord, one faith, one baptism. This is from Ephesians, one of the mystery gospels. In the beginning water baptism was very important, but is it really now? That is only washings and external regulations. One baptism is baptized with Christ, with the HS.
????????????
...and FIRE!
THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES:
http://georgewarnock.com/feast-main.html
We are under the new covenant now. The only difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant is that the testator died so that the beneficiaries could inherit. What do they inherit? The Kingdom. Eternal life. The mystery. The riches God has prepared for us in ages to come.
Think of it as a will.
13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
--Heb 9
We aren't going to go backwards to a Temple and the sacrifice of animals, as ELM suggests. That was only a shadow of what we have now.
I think what confuses people about this will is that
the testator is the beneficiary and also the executor of the will [mediator].
We are co-inheritors with Christ.
Why is there no "Gentile" gate into the holy city?
10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
--Rev 21
:cloud9: Because those that are uncircumcised of heart will not enter in.....thus you read of all the NDE's experiences and not one of them ever makes it thru the gates, nor have their loved ones. But outside the gates are murderers, thieves, those that loveth and maketh a lie, ect.
And of course, the churches have all claimed none of those conditions pertain to THEIR soul, it's always someone elses. But the truth is, what we don't overcome WHILE IN THIS BODY, lands us outside the gates, as one without a wedding garment (cleansed soul), waiting on the bridegroom to have mercy. My :2c:
Molly I agree we are not going back to a literal temple with sacrifices. I don't agree with many of the conclusions ELM makes. But I do think there is a difference between NC and Mystery. Maybe its NC 2.0 :laughing7:
Peter said Pauls writings were hard to take, but were scripture.
As for the tribes being the gentiles, I don't really know, but I don't think it has anything to do with geneology, being a literal decendent of Jacob. I think thats what the mystery is all about the full removal of all the outward, literal, for instead all inside, spiritual. :2c:
Quote from: Cardinal on January 06, 2012, 03:34:04 PM
:cloud9: Because those that are uncircumcised of heart will not enter in.....thus you read of all the NDE's experiences and not one of them ever makes it thru the gates, nor have their loved ones. But outside the gates are murderers, thieves, those that loveth and maketh a lie, ect.
And of course, the churches have all claimed none of those conditions pertain to THEIR soul, it's always someone elses. But the truth is, what we don't overcome WHILE IN THIS BODY, lands us outside the gates, as one without a wedding garment (cleansed soul), waiting on the bridegroom to have mercy. My :2c:
Yes, I think that's part of it. But who are the circumcised? Aren't they the beneficiaries of the will written in the Old Testament?
Being circumcised does not indicate what tribe you are from. How will I know what gate to go through?
21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
--Rev 21
Matt 13:45,46
"Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who is a merchant seeking fine pearls, who having found one pearl of great price, he went and sold all that he had, and bought it."
Quote from: Molly on January 06, 2012, 03:45:00 PM
21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
--Rev 21
Matt 13:45,46 "Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who is a merchant seeking fine pearls, who having found one pearl of great price, he went and sold all that he had, and bought it."
Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Doug
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 06, 2012, 03:40:33 PM
Molly I agree we are not going back to a literal temple with sacrifices. I don't agree with many of the conclusions ELM makes. But I do think there is a difference between NC and Mystery. Maybe its NC 2.0 :laughing7:
Peter said Pauls writings were hard to take, but were scripture.
As for the tribes being the gentiles, I don't really know, but I don't think it has anything to do with geneology, being a literal decendent of Jacob. I think thats what the mystery is all about the full removal of all the outward, literal, for instead all inside, spiritual. :2c:
Many Christians do not know about or understand the mystery. Whenever I try to bring it up with Christians, I get funny looks, dirty looks, accused of being New Age or worse. It's one of the reasons I can't go into a church anymore and talk to people. The word 'mystery' refers to secret knowledge known only to initiates. When you say there is a difference between the NC and the mystery, maybe you are thinking that different people will inherit different aspects under the will. That happens in an ordinary will--'I leave my silver broach to my dear sister Mary.'
Maybe think of it as a trust instead of a simple will, with different people inheriting under it at different times according to the schedule laid out in the will.
1Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
--Gal 4
Here you see--the heir is coming out of the Old Testament--a child until God sent his Son.
Quote from: Doug on January 06, 2012, 03:54:12 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 06, 2012, 03:45:00 PM
21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
--Rev 21
Matt 13:45,46 "Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who is a merchant seeking fine pearls, who having found one pearl of great price, he went and sold all that he had, and bought it."
Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Doug
yeah, mine will say, Tribe of Manasses. You need the ticket to get through the gate. Show it to the angel and walk through. :winkgrin:
:cloud9: The covenant that was for a type and shadow, is now spiritual. Their seed has been seeded into all the earth. He has "crossed hands" so to speak, with the blessing. So now the blessing rests upon the spiritual Jews that He is bringing forth in this hour, and many (not all) of the those of the natural lineage, will soon find they are in reality, Gentiles to Him now. The last (Gentiles) shall be first (now as spiritual Jews), and the first (natural Jews) shall be last (now as spiritual Gentiles).
Fifteen+ years ago, He sent me to attend the 5th Messianic convention. There was an elderly woman there, in her 60's who had spent her LIFETIME, seeking Him while caring for her blind mother. He sent her there as well, with the word to give them hat He was now removing His Spirit from off the Gentiles and putting it upon the Jews.
He had told her she would find her people there. She was gentile, but He had her only buying food with the little Kosher mark on it (she didn't even know what it meant). He was making her a spiritual Jew (by OBEDIENCE), and she did find her people there, but it wasn't the natural Jews (now Messianic ones that were there), who thought her word from the Lord was craziness and threw her out.
He HAS been doing just that; removing His Spirit from off the gentiles (not circumcized of heart), and placing it upon the Jews (circumcision of the heart). My :2c:
Quote from: Cardinaland many (not all) of the those of the natural lineage, will soon find they are in reality, Gentiles to Him now.
You think they would have figured that out when he said, "I leave your house desolate..."
I don't think we should be called 'spiritual Jews,' at least call us 'spiritual Israelites,' [ but I also believe we are the real house of Israel, lost and now found.]
Quote from: Molly on January 06, 2012, 04:02:16 PM
Quote from: Doug on January 06, 2012, 03:54:12 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 06, 2012, 03:45:00 PM
21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
--Rev 21
Matt 13:45,46 "Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who is a merchant seeking fine pearls, who having found one pearl of great price, he went and sold all that he had, and bought it."
Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Doug
yeah, mine will say, Tribe of Manasses. You need the ticket to get through the gate. Show it to the angel and walk through. :winkgrin:
"Hidden manna" is a metaphor, that means very much the same thing as "mystery." The "mystery" revealed to Paul was actually a more complete understanding of the implications of a revelation originally given to Peter in a vision. Paul said the mystery is the knowledge that "the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel."
Ephesians 3:3-7
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
This mystery was a revelation, but it was also a new understanding and interpretation of the things that had been previously revealed to the OT prophets.
Revelation 10:5-7
And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
The "mystery" had been "declared to his servants the prophets," often in ways they did not fully comprehend. Zechariah's prophecy that there will be no more Canaanites in the house of the LORD of hosts is an example of how the "mystery" was declared to them. It is rather obscure because under the OT law, anyone who was uncircumcised was not allowed to enter anyway.
Zechariah 14:21
Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
Yet, we read that one of the 12 chosen disciples of Jesus was a Canaanite! And they were to sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
The believers who were Canaanites after flesh, or Gentiles of any race or nation, become Israelites spiritually and are "as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." [1 Peter 2:5]
Doug
Quote from: Molly on January 06, 2012, 04:10:43 PM
Quote from: Cardinaland many (not all) of the those of the natural lineage, will soon find they are in reality, Gentiles to Him now.
You think they would have figured that out when he said, "I leave your house desolate..."
I don't think we should be called 'spiritual Jews,' at least call us 'spiritual Israelites,' [ but I also believe we are the real house of Israel, lost and now found.]
:cloud9: I don't care what He calls us, as long as I'm found in Him :icon_jokercolor: Anyway, I call us Jews because of the circumcision of the Jews. The natural lineage is the earth the seed was planted in, but the seed is now a spiritual Son, soon to be enrobed in a glorifed body. My :2c:
TABERNACLES!
HIS burden is
LIGHT!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCunuL58odQ
Quote from: DougMatthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Why are they judging only the twelve tribes of Israel and when does this happen?
Quote from: Molly on January 06, 2012, 07:17:10 AM
We are under the new covenant now. The only difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant is that the testator died so that the beneficiaries could inherit. What do they inherit? The Kingdom. Eternal life. The mystery. The riches God has prepared for us in ages to come.
Think of it as a will.
The "mystery" in Paul's epistle to the Ephesians is a more complete understanding of the truth (originally revealed to Peter) that "the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel." [Ephesians 3:6]
In the Old Covenant, and in the promises given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, possessing the land of Canaan was the central and perhaps the most prominent item. But in the New Testament, possessing the land seems to have become a non-issue. The Jews occupied the land, and Jerusalem, but they were under Gentile dominion, and were part of the Roman Empire, in New Testament times. The Herodian rulers were nominally Jews, although of Edomite descent.
Hebrews 11:16 puts the literal land into the category of
type and
shadow, by the statement, alluding to the patriarchs of old, "But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city." [Hebrews 11:16]
Here, the heavenly city, the New Jerusalem, is put in the place of the promised land. The author of Hebrews showed that as when the Israelites entered the promised land, this heavenly city is only entered by faith. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." [Hebrews 11:1]
The literal land, I think, represents the spiritual things promised to the saints. This includes the promise that the Spirit would guide the church into
all truth. The "mystery" was no doubt an example of this.
In the parables of Jesus, the kingdom of God is often associated with a wedding. Christ is presented as the bridegroom. In Revelation 19:7, John identifies the heavenly city as the bride and wide of the Lamb.
The New Covenant is not only a will, but a marriage covenant. There is an analogy between the seven years that Jacob labored for his bride Rachel, daughter of Laban, and the seventieth week in Daniel 9:24-27. In the 70th week, Jesus "confirms the covenant with many." This 70th week includes the half week of the ministry of Jesus on earth, (three and a half years, if John's ministry is included) and a final symbolic half week, that spans the whole age of the church. In the first half week, Jesus qualified, by his righteous life and his death, to inherit all the promises of God, and in the second half-week he qualifies
us.
Doug
Quote from: Doug on January 06, 2012, 05:46:03 PM
But in the New Testament, possessing the land seems to have become a non-issue.
Quite the contrary.
The "land" is body, soul and spirit covered inside and out with His Life.
:cloud9: Amen.....this is the land flowing with milk (for babes) and honey (revelation for the mature)..... :thumbsup:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 06, 2012, 05:53:26 PM
Quote from: Doug on January 06, 2012, 05:46:03 PM
But in the New Testament, possessing the land seems to have become a non-issue.
Quite the contrary.
The "land" is body, soul and spirit covered inside and out with His Life.
Ezekiel 38:9 says of the hordes of Gog and Magog, "Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee."
In this prophecy, the invading armies, and the enemies of the church, who are deceived people from regions far from the land of promise, [Revelation 20:8-9] are "like a cloud to cover the land." Why is this?
Proverbs 25:14
Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.
Those who boast of possessing a gift, but in reality do not possess such a gift, are compared to clouds without rain. This would apply to false teachers. Many of them claim to have received "new revelations." Ezekiel said the hordes of Gog and Magog will "cover the land." What does this suggest about the land? Perhaps, it implies that their doctrines tend to obscure the true inheritance of the saints, as the
land represents the spiritual things that are promised to them. From the land we obtain food, and foods such as bread represent spiritual nourishment in Scripture.
The New Testament confirms this idea, I think. Peter said of the false teachers, "These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever." [2 Peter 2:17] In Ephesians 4:14, Paul refers to "winds of doctrine." In contrast to
wind, the teaching of Jesus are referred to as
rock. [Matthew 7:24, 16:18]
Jude 1:12 says, in part, "These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds."
The land brings forth fruit when it is watered from above, as James said.
James 5:7
Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
Rain and snow represent the word of God, that waters the earth, so that it may bring forth seed, and bread, in Isaiah 55.
Isaiah 55
6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Doug
:cloud9: As far as "new revelations" go, there's nothing new under the sun, but there is both shallow and deep water.....
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 06, 2012, 05:53:10 AM
I don't know if he's saying to abandon the NC, but that the mystery is a higher and fuller revelation than what was laid out in the NC. Maybe he is, if thats the case I don't agree with him on that, its been a while since I've read that article. Also I'm pretty sure he never says to throw the old testament out, he quotes it all the time.
I see it like the passover is kind of representing the OC. NC is pentecost. And mystery is Tabernacles.
Also everlasting doesn't mean everlasting, or else we can't have our cake and eat it too as UR's, that age (may have) ended with the fall of Jerusalem, and the mystery was instituted right around that time, the NC was given to the house of Israel right? Literal Israel means nothing anymore in God's economy (at least for this age), so maybe the NC was given to Literal Israel, and those grafted in.
When Paul says he's a minister of the NC in Corinthians, that is supposed to have been written before the mystery came in. Also the last chapter in Romans (containing the mystery) may have been added, which is ELM's thesis.
According to E. L. Martin then, someone added an extra chapter to Romans, that mentioned the mystery? Evidently he had to postulate that the Scripture had been changed, to prop up his interpretation. But what reason could there be for such a change?
Ephesians speaks of both the "mystery,"
and the "covenants of promise." Therefore one does not
replace the other as suggested by Martin.
Ephesians 2:11-13
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
The references to the commonwealth of Israel, and the covenants of promise imply these Gentile Christians were now associated with Israel [the grafting in of Romans 11] and with the covenants that pertain to Israel, including the new covenant foretold by Jeremiah.
Things included in the "mystery" outlined in Ephesians 3 are also included in other epistles written earlier. Here is how Paul defines the mystery:
Ephesians 3
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Paul said that the mystery was that "the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body." This was originally revealed to Peter, in a vision. Paul developed the theological implications. In Romans 12, Paul wrote:
Romans 12:4-5
For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Isn't this basically the same teaching that he calls the "mystery" in Ephesians 3:6? Sure looks like it to me!
Similarly Paul wrote to the Corinthians:
1 Corinthians 12:12-14
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
For the body is not one member, but many.
This is clearly the same thing that he calls the "mystery."
Same chapter, vs. 26-27:
And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
The idea that we are a "new creature," another component of the mystery, (the "new man") is also mentioned in Paul's earlier epistles:
2 Corinthians 5:16-17
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Thus the essential ideas that are said to constitute "the mystery" are contained in Paul's earlier letters and are not really "new" at all, as Martin sought to show by his "progressive revelation" concept. Paul said he was a "minister of the new covenant."
IMO, we need to be included in this new covenant, as it represents entry into the heavenly Jerusalem, called the "bride of the Lamb" in Revelation 21:9.
Hebrews 12:22-24
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Doug
The covenants are, IMO, really renewals. As cardinal put it, "shallower and deeper water". Others have labored, we have entered into their labors. In th process of the restoration of all things, these are the stages of the revelation and restoration from chaos- the last adversary being death. When death dies, a covenant of life that has been unfolding throughout the ages will be fully delivered.....no longer a promise on any level, for anyone....but rather fulflled in everyone.
In Abraham the covenant of a priestly nation began as a seed. First stage patriarchs- Abraham Isaac and Jacob. Fathers. Then through Jacob, the transition to sons, a nation, 12 tribes, sons of the promise. Transition to nation/kingdom - even in shadow form(moon, no inner glory) a lamp(Zechariah) to the nations, the beginning of the blessing in Abraham.
Then, through the seed of David, Messiah brings a new birth, not of man or the will of man, but of the blood of Christ, Hebrews and Gentiles, a "new" nation that is grafted into and then swallows up the "root", even as the "root of Jesse" is swallowed up by the Son of David, frirstborn among many brethren, bringing many sons unto glory- our "Joshua", captain of our salvation. The church, the bride, the new lampstand, composed of lampstands, earthen vessels bearing the precious treasure of the divine nature by the indwelling Holy Spirit- written in "words of life" upon tablets of flesh not stone, living epistles, the hearts of human beings reconciled to God and bearing in themselves a preisthood, "the ministry of reconciliation".
The newer, younger covenant is made in Christ's blood bearing no relationship to former heritage.
Quote from: Doug
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Doug, what body is being talked about here? Christ's body. This is not talking about the Jew's.
If you remember before, Gentiles had to be grafted into Israel, now we along with Israel just need to be in Christ, his body, not Israel. Being grafted into Israel was of the New Covenant now it is the Mystery. We no longer need to be grafted into Israel we need to be IN CHRIST. There is a difference.
CHB
It's not exactly 'gentiles' grafted into Israel.
It's a wild olive tree grafted into a cultivated olive tree.
It's not a pear grafted onto a peach tree.
Likewise, branches are broken off the cultivated olive tree.
The root is Christ.
Quote from: CHB on January 07, 2012, 01:25:37 AM
Quote from: Doug
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Doug, what body is being talked about here? Christ's body. This is not talking about the Jew's.
Paul said, "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." Jesus was a Jew. And he is the King of the Jews, the promised Messiah. How can we not be Jews?
Doug
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Absolutely!!! :thumbsup:
CHB
Quote from: eaglesway on January 07, 2012, 12:11:28 AM
The covenants are, IMO, really renewals. As cardinal put it, "shallower and deeper water". Others have labored, we have entered into their labors. In th process of the restoration of all things, these are the stages of the revelation and restoration from chaos- the last adversary being death. When death dies, a covenant of life that has been unfolding throughout the ages will be fully delivered.....no longer a promise on any level, for anyone....but rather fulflled in everyone.
In Abraham the covenant of a priestly nation began as a seed. First stage patriarchs- Abraham Isaac and Jacob. Fathers. Then through Jacob, the transition to sons, a nation, 12 tribes, sons of the promise. Transition to nation/kingdom - even in shadow form(moon, no inner glory) a lamp(Zechariah) to the nations, the beginning of the blessing in Abraham.
Then, through the seed of David, Messiah brings a new birth, not of man or the will of man, but of the blood of Christ, Hebrews and Gentiles, a "new" nation that is grafted into and then swallows up the "root", even as the "root of Jesse" is swallowed up by the Son of David, frirstborn among many brethren, bringing many sons unto glory- our "Joshua", captain of our salvation. The church, the bride, the new lampstand, composed of lampstands, earthen vessels bearing the precious treasure of the divine nature by the indwelling Holy Spirit- written in "words of life" upon tablets of flesh not stone, living epistles, the hearts of human beings reconciled to God and bearing in themselves a preisthood, "the ministry of reconciliation".
The newer, younger covenant is made in Christ's blood bearing no relationship to former heritage.
:thumbsup:
The land: Spirit, soul and body; and all God's people say, AMEN.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 07, 2012, 03:17:30 AM
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:28-29
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Paul said, Abraham's seed, to whom the promises apply, is Christ.
vs. 7:
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Galatians 6:15-16
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
Doug
Was Abraham Jewish?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 07, 2012, 04:15:43 AM
Was Abraham Jewish?
If Levi was in the loins of Abraham as Hebrews 7:10 says, would Judah be in there also?
Doug
The question is about Abraham.
Abraham was an uncircumcised Gentile when the promise was made to him and the covenant struck.
But, he believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.
Therefore, he had the seed of Christ.
So it seems fitting that the first to inherit [in great numbers] would be the Gentiles.
[Who were also the lost house of israel, but that's another story.]
But in fact the prophecy said the Gentiles would inherit---you will be a father of many nations [Gentiles] and all the nations [Gentiles] of the world will be blessed in you.
There were also only Gentiles in that day--[because Jacob had not yet been born, of course].
He said to me: "Who went up to Heaven and came down, and who is holding the wind in his palms? Who has bound the waters in his garment and who has established all the ends of the Earth? What is his Name, and what is his Son's Name, if you know?"
--Prov 30:4
There were no gentiles, i.e. goyim, until Abraham, because there was no covenant, no circumscision (sign of the covenant, separator), etc. Abraham was living among the Chaldeans, a son of Seth, as Abram. All of the Israelites were in his loins, as was Christ (son of Abraham, son of David)and as were we, in Christ :o)
There could be no outsiders until there was an inside, and that began with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Also since Esau was a son of Abraham(in Isaac), yet was not counted among the Israelites, you could even further say, there were actually no Gentiles until Jacob(as Molly pointed out), whose sons comprised the tribes of the nation and became the eventual defining heritage of Judah and Israel.
As to Gentile Christians being of lost tribes of Israel drifting into the world population and becoming the Christian nations, i find that to be dubious, highly speculative and not witnessed to in the scriptures, but that's just my opinion :o)
Sure there were Gentiles.
They were the nations.
God sets his people apart from the nations, and makes them a nation for himself.
I think my biggest witness to the lost tribe theory is predestination.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 07, 2012, 04:03:33 AM
The land: Spirit, soul and body; and all God's people say, AMEN.
Ever wondered why the land
devours its inhabitants in Ezekiel 36:13, but that will cease?
This post (http://wp.me/p1iV8y-KU) explains.
Doug
Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 07, 2012, 04:03:33 AM
The land: Spirit, soul and body; and all God's people say, AMEN.
:cloud9: Well, THIS "people" says AMEN. Christ is the 7th day, He is our rest, and where He is we are to dwell also, ie. HE IS our promised land.
@Doug......some of this I know you know, but to share my view.....the reason the land will no longer devour it's inhabitants is because it's not a literal natural land anymore, just like He's not got a literal natural body anymore (save us, His temple). The present "land" we dwell in of dust, devours us because it's Satan's meat.
Proverbs 30:15-16 There are three things that are never satisfied, yea, four things say not, It is enough:
The grave
(carnal mind/stone that must be rolled away);
and the barren womb
(will/birthed of the will of men instead of the will of God, ie. wrong "seed");
the earth that is not filled with water
(emotions/moved by every wind of doctrines of men/doctrines are not just religion oriented);
and the fire
(desires/the burning in our own lusts, ie. not His desire) that saith not, It is enough.
Put them all together, and you have the soul of man, ie. MIND, WILL, EMOTIONS, AND DESIRES.
For this reason, we must be born from above, caught up into our "new" mother, to dwell in a glorified body from above. New Jerusalem is not just a city (multiple habitations of Him), but a HOUSE, in the sense of the "house of David", ie. LINEAGE. Our mother, builds her house with wisdom, the wisdom from above, as any wise woman does. Blessings....
For Jehovah hath prepared a new thing in the land, Woman doth compass man.
LOST TRIBES?
Oldest known 10 Commandments is in America, in Ancient Hebrew Script-From time of king Solomon
Welcome to the Location of the Oldest known TEN Commandments, the only place on Earth where the name of GOD is found having been written into a stone altar dedicated to Him, and the First place of worship established to the Biblical GOD in America!
South of Albuquerque, and west of Los Lunas, New Mexico, an ancient inscription was carved into the face of a boulder centuries ago. It is the text of the Ten Commandments, written in Hebrew! Of particular interest is the fact that the type of Hebrew writing that was used was Paleo-Hebrew, which is the form of Hebrew writing that was used for approximately a one-thousand-year period, ending about 500 BC. This means that we can fairly conclude that the inscription of the Ten Commandments was engraved on the face of a boulder in New Mexico, North America, sometime prior to 500 BC! The Holy One of Israel led colonies of righteous Israelites to the land of America, prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Babylonian dispersion that occurred in about 587 BC. Harvard scholar Robert Pfeiffer. Pfeiffer, an expert in Semitic languages, concluded that the mysterious inscription was written in a form of Paleo-Hebrew and paraphrased the Ten Commandments.
"I am Yahweh thy God who brought thee out of the land," Pfeiffer's translation began. "There shall not be unto them other gods before Me." Hebrew scholars, such as Cyrus Gordon of Brandeis University near Boston, have vouched for its
authenticity. Historian Steven M. Collins points out that the "Las Lunas Stone" inscription in archaic Hebrew was written in the Hebrew letters of the style of the Moabite Stone, dated to about 1,000 B.C. This would place the writing on the stone to the time of the kingdom of ancient Israel under its most affluent and powerful king, Solomon, who reigned from 1014 B.C. to 974 B.C. sea voyages around the world were fairly
common during the time of king Solomon, the son of David, during Israel's "golden age." Solomon's incredible wealth also strongly points to the Las Lunas stone inscription as having been carved during his reign. Financing sailing voyages of discovery and maritime trade is no small feat. Vast sums and investments are required. Solomon was the wealthiest king who ever lived, and undoubtedly had the resources to fund such far reaching and dangerous voyages. Also, during his reign Israel was in league with the other major world powers of the day, including Tyre and the Phoenicians, and the nation of Egypt.
It is 'Hidden Mountain' (5507') in New Mexico having the local "Mystery Stone" as it is still called by the State, now named the 'Phoenician Inscription Rock' on the official maps or "Mystery Rock" in their 'area attractions' lists.
The site is located 35 airmiles due SW of Albuquerque on Hwy 6 (Historic 'Route 66') at mm18 S of I-40 or 16 miles W of I-25 at Los Lunas (where for it has also become known as the "Los Lunas Decalogue").
It was once an Israelite Wilderness Tabernacle site some 2500 or more years ago, with its high place Altar inscription to 'the LORD our God' of the Bible, and 80 ton boulder "Commandments stone" Mezuzah 'at the gate' -dating from the 'Old Testament' period of the Paleo-Hebrew 'mother script'. It is the only '10 commandments' yet found in the ancient writing. Historically the mountain was called Cerro Los Moqujino (Cliff of the Strange writings) by the Native Americans stating it pre-existed the arrival of their ancestors into the area.
It's been said there exists about 2,000 glyphs around Hidden Mtn. for a radius of about 6 miles.
http://godssecret.wordpress.com/2009/06/14/oldest-known-10-commandments-is-in-america-in-ancient-hebrew-script-from-time-of-king-solomon/
Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 07, 2012, 04:31:10 PM
For Jehovah hath prepared a new thing in the land, Woman doth compass man.
:cloud9: Amen....He's had me on that for over a year now...... :thumbsup:
:cloud9: @ Molly.....love the post. :thumbsup: The Navaho people have Hebrew words in their vocabulary. Many of the Native American rituals and customs are plainly mimicked from the OT.
Quote from: Cardinal on January 07, 2012, 04:47:22 PM
:cloud9: @ Molly.....love the post. :thumbsup: The Navaho people have Hebrew words in their vocabulary. Many of the Native American rituals and customs are plainly mimicked from the OT.
And, to think you all have been scoffing at me for 60 pages. :laughing7:
I visited this area a few years back, wish I had known about this stone.
This area is so dry that nothing is eroded and the rocks are covered with the 'graffitti' of visitors from hundreds of years ago.
I remember looking at inscriptions on rocks where a date is given [clearly Europeans] way prior to Columbus [1492].
I was amazed. What are they teaching us in school? in 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue....
But, meanwhile these unknown European explorers were visiting the continent over a hundred years earlier, coming up through South America.
"And I shall make My set-apart Name known in the midst of My people Yisrael, and not let My set-apart Name be profaned any more. And the gentiles shall know that I am YHWH, the Set-apart One in Yisrael.
--Eze 39:7
It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.
Peace and mercy will come to rest on all those who conform to this principle. They are the Israel of YaHuWaH.
--Gal 6: 15,16
Quote from: Molly on January 07, 2012, 06:50:09 PM
"And I shall make My set-apart Name known in the midst of My people Yisrael, and not let My set-apart Name be profaned any more. And the gentiles shall know that I am YHWH, the Set-apart One in Yisrael.
--Eze 39:7
It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.
Peace and mercy will come to rest on all those who conform to this principle. They are the Israel of YaHuWaH.
--Gal 6: 15,16
Galatians 6:15-16 [NIV 1984]
Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God.
And upon the Israel of God - The true church of God; all who are his true worshippers. [Barnes' Notes on the Bible]
The Israel of God - The true Christians, called here the Israel of God, to distinguish them from Israel according to the flesh. [Clarke's Commentary on the Bible]
Upon the true Israel, whose praise is from God and not from men; Ro 2:29. [Geneva Study Bible]
and upon the Israel of God; which is a further description of the persons, for whom he prays for these blessings; and is not to be understood by way of distinction from them, but as an amplification of their character; and as pointing out the Israel, by way of emphasis, the Israel, or Israelites indeed, the spiritual Israel, as distinct from Israel according to the flesh; see 1 Corinthians 10:18. [Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible]
Peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel, that is, the Church, of God - Which consists of all those, and those only, of every nation and kindred, who walk by this rule. [Wesley's Notes]
Israel of God-not the Israel after the flesh, among whom those teachers wish to enrol you; but the spiritual seed of Abraham by faith (Ga 3:9, 29; Ro 2:28, 29; Php 3:3). [Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary]
Doug
From John 1:4-13
In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.............. There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
The "as many as received him" include those from evry nation, chosen from among men to become sons, through "implatation of the "seed"(Messiah, the Logos), which translate "anyone" from the darkness into the kingdom of his glorious light. which is Messiah. There was no need to spread the lost tribes out among the nations(not saying it didnt happen) because the "seed" was to be planted by faith in "all" who received him from "every" nation- whether of a lost tribe or not.....earthly heritage(bloodline)having no relationship to the gospel of "glad tidings to all people", which is a covenant certified in a new bloodline- the blood being received through fatih in Jesus, a seed in the womb of the soul that grows up into "sonship" in evryone who retains faith.
Gal 3:26 for ye are all sons of God through the faith in Christ Jesus, for as many as to Christ were baptized did put on Christ; there is not here Jew or Greek, there is not here servant nor freeman, there is not here male and female, for all ye are one in Christ Jesus; and if ye [are] of Christ then of Abraham ye are seed, and according to promise -- heirs(YLT).
Predestination, to the "sons", the "as many as he called to himself", for to "all" those who received him he gave them "the right/authority/privilege to become sons of God, as many as believed in his name."
Ro 8:28-30
And we have known that to those loving God all things do work together for good, to those who are called according to purpose(that God be "all in all"); because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren; and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify(YLT).
This is the importance in Galatians, of Paul's point that the covenant, previously ratified in Abraham, to his "seed"(Christ), could not be pre-empted or over charged by a later covenant ratified in law(earthly Israel), but was rather the superior enforceable covenant, now carried in the spirit unto "all" who believe, earthly bloodline no longer relevant("there is not here Jew or Greek").
in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
Col. 3:10,11
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 07, 2012, 04:31:10 PM
For Jehovah hath prepared a new thing in the land, Woman doth compass man.
Revelation 12
1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered...........
5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 08, 2012, 08:13:17 PM
...
This is the importance in Galatians, of Paul's point that the covenant, previously ratified in Abraham, to his "seed"(Christ), could not be pre-empted or over charged by a later covenant ratified in law(earthly Israel), but was rather the superior enforceable covenant, now carried in the spirit unto "all" who believe, earthly bloodline no longer relevant("there is not here Jew or Greek").
Paul identified the covenant that was ratified to Abraham with the gospel. "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed." [Galatians 3:8]
To be included in the blessing of the covenant is by faith, and is
not based on ethnic descent. Belief in God is necessary, not Israelite ancestry. The dispensationalists point to the modern Jewish state as the partial fulfillment of the promises, but that country is not the "Israel of God." According to Paul in Romans 9:6, "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." In 11:17 he described Jews who did not believe as branches broken off from their tree. This implies the Israel to which the promises apply, and to which prophecy applies, is the church, not ethnic Jews, the USA and Britain, or American Indians, etc.
Doug
Natural Israel is Hagar the bondwoman
That would be like saying, There are no Old Testament saints.
And, we know there are Old Testament saints who are also natural Israel.
You can be natural Israel AND the inheritor of the promise.
In fact, I think that is who inherits the promise. [as you all know by now].
Quote from: Molly on January 08, 2012, 10:11:13 PM
That would be like saying, There are no Old Testament saints.
Are you referring to "Natural Israel is Hagar the bondwoman" posted by redhotmagma? He was alluding to Paul's statement.
Galatians 4:29-31
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Of course there were Old Testament saints, such as those listed in Hebrews 11. Paul shows they all had faith in
God's word.
Quote from: Molly on January 08, 2012, 10:11:13 PM
And, we know there are Old Testament saints who are also natural Israel.
You can be natural Israel AND the inheritor of the promise.
In fact, I think that is who inherits the promise. [as you all know by now].
Those who inherit the promises are those who have faith in Christ, not in their ethnic heritage.
Paul taught that the prophets of the OT are the church's foundation, along with the apostles. [Ephesians 2:20]
Doug
Quote from: DougGalatians 4:29-31
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
This is not saying natural Israel is Hagar. It is saying those born after the flesh persecute those who are born again of Spirit.
It's not reflecting on any ethnic group, because the same group is and can be both.
So flesh is Hagar.
And Spirit is the free woman.
Quote from: Molly on January 08, 2012, 10:44:57 PM
Quote from: DougGalatians 4:29-31
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
This is not saying natural Israel is Hagar. It is saying those born after the flesh persecute those who are born again of Spirit.
It's not reflecting on any ethnic group, because the same group is and can be both.
If it does not refer to an ethnic group, then I suppose you would agree that it refers to those practicing Judaism, and the Mosaic law, where circumcision, and national identity were quite prominent.
Galatians 4
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Paul contrasts two covenants--that from Sinai, and the new covenant (implied) that is connected with the heavenly Jerusalem, and Sarah the wife of Abraham.
Quote from: Molly on January 08, 2012, 10:44:57 PM
So flesh is Hagar.
And Spirit is the free woman.
Yes. One could be an ethnic Jew who became free of the bondage of the Mosaic law, by faith in Christ.
The history of ethnic Israel in the OT provides examples for the church, Paul said: "and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." [1 Corinthians 10:11]
Doug
God promised though that he would take natural Israel, through promise of his word.
They shall be changed and follow Jesus, because God promised them.
I don't know whether 'them' = Jews in general or All ethnic Jews.
The scripture says they are enemies for the gospel for the gentiles sake but yet are called the elect.
Romans 11:28
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
Thus the elect means they have been given the 'promises'
which I imagine is world dominion, from Jerusalem as capital city, with King David ruling the Earth.
But before that takes place the counterfeit is seated in Jerusalem and rules the world.
But through reading scripture it seems to be a back and forth affair
Jews accept Jesus, then reject Jesus, then accept beast, then reject beast, then accept Jesus again and forever.
There seems to be lots going on in Israel before Jews accept Jesus as their king though, such as wars and destruction.
Then rebuild and accept Jesus, but then reject him and the sacrifices and place the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place.
Quote from: DougPaul contrasts two covenants--that from Sinai, and the new covenant (implied) that is connected with the heavenly Jerusalem, and Sarah the wife of Abraham
Yes, but before the covenant from Sinai, where the people said, give us the law and we will follow it [they didn't], we have the everlasting covenant with Abraham, where God made the covenant between himself and himself [Abraham's seed], the covenant of the promise. That covenant comes down through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Ephraim. Ephraim, the house of Israel, are the children of the promise [they will be called sons of the living God].
The story of the prodigal son could be applied to house of Judah and house of Israel. Any reason why not?
11And he said, A certain man had two sons:
two sons: house of Judah, house of Israel13And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
house of Israel disappears into the gentile countries and lives like a gentile [squanders his wealth as a son]15And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
house of Israel loses its identity. Joins the gentiles. Sloping the pigs in a gentile country.18I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
House of Israel decides to repent and return to Father as a servant22But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
Father dresses the house of Israel in the robe and signet ring of a king and orders a huge party to celebrate his return. The mystery is revealed to him [the Gentiles.]24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry
house of Israel was lost [into a gentile identity] and is now found. House of Israel told he is a son.29And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
house of Judah [older faithful brother] is angry because he has done all the right things and stayed with his Father and kept the law and the Temple while the younger son was out playing and slopping the pigs and acting like a gentile.31And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
The Father assures the house of Judah that he is still a close son and an inheritor but says of his younger son:32...: for this thy brother was was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
house of Israel, the younger son has returned to the family and thus is now alive.
Quote from: thinktank on January 09, 2012, 12:53:13 AM
God promised though that he would take natural Israel, through promise of his word.
They shall be changed and follow Jesus, because God promised them.
I don't know whether 'them' = Jews in general or All ethnic Jews.
The scripture says they are enemies for the gospel for the gentiles sake but yet are called the elect.
Romans 11:28
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
Thus the elect means they have been given the 'promises'
In this chapter Paul refers to ethnic Israel, and he contrasts them with the "election." Notice vs. 7, "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded." This means that the "election" is something other than all of the Jewish nation, or all Israel after the flesh. The election refers to those who had found what Israel was seeking for, by believing in Christ. In other words it refers to the church.
Yet, Paul does hold out hope for those who had been blinded, as Paul himself had previously been, before Christ appeared to him in a vision. (After which he was struck blind, but he was healed from that.)
Paul says, "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again." [vs. 27] This must mean that they will be raised up from their graves, in the judgment, and then they will learn the truth, their blindness will be cured, and they will be reconciled to God. It is the same thing Jesus spoke of, in Matthew 10:15, 11:23-24, etc. He also said the people of Sodom, and Nineveh, will be there too. And some of them will have a more tolerable experience than Jews who saw the miracles of Jesus, yet did not believe the gospel.
Quote from: thinktank on January 09, 2012, 12:53:13 AM
which I imagine is world dominion, from Jerusalem as capital city, with King David ruling the Earth.
The prophecies that seem to indicate that Jews will be doted on by Gentiles, are using metaphorical language. The "house of Judah" and "house of David" in Zechariah 10, 12, 13 are terms that apply to the church, not ethnic Jews. These prophecies did not come to pass in 70 AD; the prophecy says that God will fight on behalf of Jerusalem, and the foes who come against Jerusalem will suffer a plague, affecting the eyes and the mouth. That did not happen to the Roman armies. The interpretation is given in Revelation 20:8-9; they come against the "camp of the saints" or the church, and the "beloved city." These are spiritual battles, described in terms of old fashioned warfare.
In OT prophecy David is often referred to in the place of Christ, who already reigns on the throne of David, as the church is the "heavenly Jerusalem." [Hebrews 12:22-23] So the idea that ethnic Jews will have dominion over the earth is a fable.
Quote from: thinktank on January 09, 2012, 12:53:13 AM
But before that takes place the counterfeit is seated in Jerusalem and rules the world.
But through reading scripture it seems to be a back and forth affair
Jews accept Jesus, then reject Jesus, then accept beast, then reject beast, then accept Jesus again and forever.
There seems to be lots going on in Israel before Jews accept Jesus as their king though, such as wars and destruction.
Then rebuild and accept Jesus, but then reject him and the sacrifices and place the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place.
Can you provide specific scriptures that support these conclusions? Then let's see if they really say what is suggested, or whether there is some better interpretation.
Doug
The covenant with Abraham was based on grace. This is the everlasting covenant. God does all the work and keeps the covenant himself.
There is nothing anyone can do to earn it or to become part of it. It is by grace alone.
The house of Judah, which retained their identity, thought and still think, they can do it themselves.
They keep the law, keep the Sabbath, light the candles, --but they do not have the heart of God.
FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.' Mat 13:15
That promise was given to the house of Israel, who become the gentiles, who become the church.
But the house of Judah will be saved after the fulness of the Gentiles [all the house of Israel is brought in] because their fathers were the elect [see the implication here],
Thus, Paul tells us,
And, so, all Israel will be saved. Rom 11
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 01:18:10 AM
Quote from: DougPaul contrasts two covenants--that from Sinai, and the new covenant (implied) that is connected with the heavenly Jerusalem, and Sarah the wife of Abraham
Yes, but before the covenant from Sinai, where the people said, give us the law and we will follow it [they didn't], we have the everlasting covenant with Abraham, where God made the covenant between himself and himself [Abraham's seed], the covenant of the promise. That covenant comes down through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Ephraim. Ephraim, the house of Israel, are the children of the promise [they will be called sons of the living God].
The story of the prodigal son could be applied to house of Judah and house of Israel. Any reason why not?
11And he said, A certain man had two sons:
two sons: house of Judah, house of Israel
The parable is about repentance, which is given to individuals, and it is a gift from God.
Doug
Quote from: Doug on January 09, 2012, 01:57:15 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 01:18:10 AM
Quote from: DougPaul contrasts two covenants--that from Sinai, and the new covenant (implied) that is connected with the heavenly Jerusalem, and Sarah the wife of Abraham
Yes, but before the covenant from Sinai, where the people said, give us the law and we will follow it [they didn't], we have the everlasting covenant with Abraham, where God made the covenant between himself and himself [Abraham's seed], the covenant of the promise. That covenant comes down through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Ephraim. Ephraim, the house of Israel, are the children of the promise [they will be called sons of the living God].
The story of the prodigal son could be applied to house of Judah and house of Israel. Any reason why not?
11And he said, A certain man had two sons:
two sons: house of Judah, house of Israel
The parable is about repentance, which is given to individuals, and it is a gift from God.
Doug
Yes, isn't that the whole point [gift from God]? So, is the younger son the church?
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 01:51:18 AM
The covenant with Abraham was based on grace. This is the everlasting covenant. God does all the work and keeps the covenant himself.
There is nothing anyone can do to earn it or to become part of it. It is by grace alone.
Titus 2:10-16
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
Doug
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 02:02:38 AM
Quote from: Doug on January 09, 2012, 01:57:15 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 01:18:10 AM
Quote from: DougPaul contrasts two covenants--that from Sinai, and the new covenant (implied) that is connected with the heavenly Jerusalem, and Sarah the wife of Abraham
Yes, but before the covenant from Sinai, where the people said, give us the law and we will follow it [they didn't], we have the everlasting covenant with Abraham, where God made the covenant between himself and himself [Abraham's seed], the covenant of the promise. That covenant comes down through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Ephraim. Ephraim, the house of Israel, are the children of the promise [they will be called sons of the living God].
The story of the prodigal son could be applied to house of Judah and house of Israel. Any reason why not?
11And he said, A certain man had two sons:
two sons: house of Judah, house of Israel
The parable is about repentance, which is given to individuals, and it is a gift from God.
Doug
Yes, isn't that the whole point [gift from God]? So, is the younger son the church?
Jesus said: "salvation is of the Jews." [John 4:22]
Doug
Who is Peter talking to?
1 Peter 2:9
Ye are
a chosen generation
a royal priesthood
a holy nation
a peculiar people
"peculiar" [people]
περιποίησις
peripoiēsis
per-ee-poy'-ay-sis
From G4046; acquisition (the act or the thing); by extension preservation: - obtain (-ing), peculiar, purchased, possession, saving.
a peculiar people means we are his possession [his flock]
But look who was first declared a peculiar people--the twelve tribes of Israel. So is Peter talking to the church?
Deuteronomy 14:2
For thou art holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
Quote from: Doug on January 09, 2012, 02:21:13 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 02:02:38 AM
Quote from: Doug on January 09, 2012, 01:57:15 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 01:18:10 AM
Quote from: DougPaul contrasts two covenants--that from Sinai, and the new covenant (implied) that is connected with the heavenly Jerusalem, and Sarah the wife of Abraham
Yes, but before the covenant from Sinai, where the people said, give us the law and we will follow it [they didn't], we have the everlasting covenant with Abraham, where God made the covenant between himself and himself [Abraham's seed], the covenant of the promise. That covenant comes down through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Ephraim. Ephraim, the house of Israel, are the children of the promise [they will be called sons of the living God].
The story of the prodigal son could be applied to house of Judah and house of Israel. Any reason why not?
11And he said, A certain man had two sons:
two sons: house of Judah, house of Israel
The parable is about repentance, which is given to individuals, and it is a gift from God.
Doug
Yes, isn't that the whole point [gift from God]? So, is the younger son the church?
Jesus said: "salvation is of the Jews." [John 4:22]
Doug
I don't think you answered my question. Who is the younger son?
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 02:21:28 AM
Who is Peter talking to?
1 Peter 2:9
Ye are
a chosen generation
a royal priesthood
a holy nation
a peculiar people
"peculiar" [people]
περιποίησις
peripoiēsis
per-ee-poy'-ay-sis
From G4046; acquisition (the act or the thing); by extension preservation: - obtain (-ing), peculiar, purchased, possession, saving.
a peculiar people means we are his possession [his flock]
But look who was first declared a peculiar people--the twelve tribes of Israel. So is Peter talking to the church?
Deuteronomy 14:2
For thou art holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
Look at verse 10.
1 Peter 2:9-10
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
The people Peter addresses in his epistle were previously Gentiles (and maybe Israelites too) of many different ethnic backgrounds. Now they were brought together and became one people in Christ.
Doug
Quote from: DougWhich in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God:
Yes they [the church] exactly fulfill the prophecy in Hosea spoken to the house of Israel.
Hos 1:6...And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but
I will utterly take them away. 9Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are
not my people, and I will not be your God.
10Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are
not my people, there it shall be said unto them,
Ye are the sons of the living God.--Hos 1
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 02:23:45 AM
Quote from: Doug on January 09, 2012, 02:21:13 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 02:02:38 AM
Quote from: Doug on January 09, 2012, 01:57:15 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 01:18:10 AM
Quote from: DougPaul contrasts two covenants--that from Sinai, and the new covenant (implied) that is connected with the heavenly Jerusalem, and Sarah the wife of Abraham
Yes, but before the covenant from Sinai, where the people said, give us the law and we will follow it [they didn't], we have the everlasting covenant with Abraham, where God made the covenant between himself and himself [Abraham's seed], the covenant of the promise. That covenant comes down through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Ephraim. Ephraim, the house of Israel, are the children of the promise [they will be called sons of the living God].
The story of the prodigal son could be applied to house of Judah and house of Israel. Any reason why not?
11And he said, A certain man had two sons:
two sons: house of Judah, house of Israel
The parable is about repentance, which is given to individuals, and it is a gift from God.
Doug
Yes, isn't that the whole point [gift from God]? So, is the younger son the church?
Jesus said: "salvation is of the Jews." [John 4:22]
Doug
I don't think you answered my question. Who is the younger son?
There are two groups of Jews mentioned in the account below, publicans and sinners, and Pharisees. Which group do you think would best fit the role of the younger son in the parable?
Matthew 9:10-13
10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Doug
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 02:39:57 AM
Quote from: DougWhich in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God:
Yes they [the church] exactly fulfill the prophecy in Hosea spoken to the house of Israel.
Hos 1:6...And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
9Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
--Hos 1
What about these?
Hosea 4:17
Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.
Hosea 5:3
I know Ephraim, and Israel is not hid from me: for now, O Ephraim, thou committest whoredom, and Israel is defiled.
Hosea 5:5
And the pride of Israel doth testify to his face: therefore shall Israel and Ephraim fall in their iniquity: Judah also shall fall with them.
Hosea 5:9
Ephraim shall be desolate in the day of rebuke: among the tribes of Israel have I made known that which shall surely be.
Hosea 5:11-12
Ephraim is oppressed and broken in judgment, because he willingly walked after the commandment.
Therefore will I be unto Ephraim as a moth, and to the house of Judah as rottenness.
Hosea 6:4
O Ephraim, what shall I do unto thee? O Judah, what shall I do unto thee? for your goodness is as a morning cloud, and as the early dew it goeth away.
Hosea 6:10
I have seen an horrible thing in the house of Israel: there is the whoredom of Ephraim, Israel is defiled.
Hosea 7:1
When I would have healed Israel, then the iniquity of Ephraim was discovered, and the wickedness of Samaria: for they commit falsehood; and the thief cometh in, and the troop of robbers spoileth without.
Hosea 7:8
Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people; Ephraim is a cake not turned.
Hosea 7:11
Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart: they call to Egypt, they go to Assyria.
Hosea 8:9
For they are gone up to Assyria, a wild ass alone by himself: Ephraim hath hired lovers.
Hosea 8:11
Because Ephraim hath made many altars to sin, altars shall be unto him to sin.
Hosea 9:3
They shall not dwell in the LORD's land; but Ephraim shall return to Egypt, and they shall eat unclean things in Assyria.
Hosea 9:11
As for Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth, and from the womb, and from the conception.
Hosea 9:13
Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.
Hosea 9:16
Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.
Doug
Quote from: Doug on January 09, 2012, 02:40:28 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 02:23:45 AM
Quote from: Doug on January 09, 2012, 02:21:13 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 02:02:38 AM
Quote from: Doug on January 09, 2012, 01:57:15 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 01:18:10 AM
Quote from: DougPaul contrasts two covenants--that from Sinai, and the new covenant (implied) that is connected with the heavenly Jerusalem, and Sarah the wife of Abraham
Yes, but before the covenant from Sinai, where the people said, give us the law and we will follow it [they didn't], we have the everlasting covenant with Abraham, where God made the covenant between himself and himself [Abraham's seed], the covenant of the promise. That covenant comes down through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Ephraim. Ephraim, the house of Israel, are the children of the promise [they will be called sons of the living God].
The story of the prodigal son could be applied to house of Judah and house of Israel. Any reason why not?
11And he said, A certain man had two sons:
two sons: house of Judah, house of Israel
The parable is about repentance, which is given to individuals, and it is a gift from God.
Doug
Yes, isn't that the whole point [gift from God]? So, is the younger son the church?
Jesus said: "salvation is of the Jews." [John 4:22]
Doug
I don't think you answered my question. Who is the younger son?
There are two groups of Jews mentioned in the account below, publicans and sinners, and Pharisees. Which group do you think would best fit the role of the younger son in the parable?
Matthew 9:10-13
10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Doug
Neither.
Quote from: Doug on January 09, 2012, 02:42:17 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 02:39:57 AM
Quote from: DougWhich in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God:
Yes they [the church] exactly fulfill the prophecy in Hosea spoken to the house of Israel.
Hos 1:6...And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
9Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
--Hos 1
What about these?
Hosea 4:17
Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.
Hosea 5:3
I know Ephraim, and Israel is not hid from me: for now, O Ephraim, thou committest whoredom, and Israel is defiled.
Hosea 5:5
And the pride of Israel doth testify to his face: therefore shall Israel and Ephraim fall in their iniquity: Judah also shall fall with them.
Hosea 5:9
Ephraim shall be desolate in the day of rebuke: among the tribes of Israel have I made known that which shall surely be.
Hosea 5:11-12
Ephraim is oppressed and broken in judgment, because he willingly walked after the commandment.
Therefore will I be unto Ephraim as a moth, and to the house of Judah as rottenness.
Hosea 6:4
O Ephraim, what shall I do unto thee? O Judah, what shall I do unto thee? for your goodness is as a morning cloud, and as the early dew it goeth away.
Hosea 6:10
I have seen an horrible thing in the house of Israel: there is the whoredom of Ephraim, Israel is defiled.
Hosea 7:1
When I would have healed Israel, then the iniquity of Ephraim was discovered, and the wickedness of Samaria: for they commit falsehood; and the thief cometh in, and the troop of robbers spoileth without.
Hosea 7:8
Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people; Ephraim is a cake not turned.
Hosea 7:11
Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart: they call to Egypt, they go to Assyria.
Hosea 8:9
For they are gone up to Assyria, a wild ass alone by himself: Ephraim hath hired lovers.
Hosea 8:11
Because Ephraim hath made many altars to sin, altars shall be unto him to sin.
Hosea 9:3
They shall not dwell in the LORD's land; but Ephraim shall return to Egypt, and they shall eat unclean things in Assyria.
Hosea 9:11
As for Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth, and from the womb, and from the conception.
Hosea 9:13
Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.
Hosea 9:16
Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.
Doug
Yes, that's what he says to the house of Israel [Ephraim]---he's utterly taken them away--scatters them to the four corners of the earth where they worship other gods.
He even divorces them.
They become...gasp....Gentiles.
BUT
it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
Hos 1
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 02:44:34 AM
...
Yes, that's what he says to the house of Israel [Ephraim]---he's utterly taken them away--scatters them to the four corners of the earth where they worship other gods.
He even divorces them.
They become...gasp....Gentiles.
BUT
it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
Hos 1
Paul interprets this and uses it to show how the calling of the Gentiles fits God's plan. Saying these Gentiles were really Israelites of the lost ten tribes undermines Paul's argument. IMO.
Romans 9
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Doug
Quote from: Doug on January 09, 2012, 03:12:42 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 02:44:34 AM
...
Yes, that's what he says to the house of Israel [Ephraim]---he's utterly taken them away--scatters them to the four corners of the earth where they worship other gods.
He even divorces them.
They become...gasp....Gentiles.
BUT
it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
Hos 1
Paul interprets this and uses it to show how the calling of the Gentiles fits God's plan. Saying these Gentiles were really Israelites of the lost ten tribes undermines Paul's argument. IMO.
Romans 9
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Doug
But, Paul is quoting exactly from Hos 1 in Rom 9.
He knows that prophecy was given to the house of Israel.
And, now he's applying it to Gentiles--the exact same prophecy.
So in Hosea 1 we have house of Judah and house of Israel.
And, in Romans 9 we have Jews and Gentiles.
I don't know what else to say. I don't see how it could be clearer.
If you prophecy over one group of people and suddenly another group fulfills the prophecy 800 years later, couldn't we assume they are the same group?
Wouldn't a rose by any other name smell as sweet?
It doesn't matter what name you give them, house of Israel or Gentile Christians, they both fit the description.
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 03:18:23 AM
Quote from: Doug on January 09, 2012, 03:12:42 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 02:44:34 AM
...
Yes, that's what he says to the house of Israel [Ephraim]---he's utterly taken them away--scatters them to the four corners of the earth where they worship other gods.
He even divorces them.
They become...gasp....Gentiles.
BUT
it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
Hos 1
Paul interprets this and uses it to show how the calling of the Gentiles fits God's plan. Saying these Gentiles were really Israelites of the lost ten tribes undermines Paul's argument. IMO.
Romans 9
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Doug
But, Paul is quoting exactly from Hos 1 in Rom 9.
He knows that prophecy was given to the house of Israel.
And, now he's applying it to Gentiles--the exact same prophecy.
So in Hosea 1 we have house of Judah and house of Israel.
And, in Romans 9 we have Jews and Gentiles.
I don't know what else to say. I don't see how it could be clearer.
If you prophecy over one group of people and suddenly another group fulfills the prophecy 800 years later, couldn't we assume they are the same group?
Wouldn't a rose by any other name smell as sweet?
It doesn't matter what name you give them, house of Israel or Gentile Christians, they both fit the description.
So, if all the Christians in those days were really Israelites after the flesh and not Gentiles, why was Paul so sorrowful, in the beginning of the chapter?
Romans 9
1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
If they were Israelites after the flesh this sorrow about their unbelief would be meaningless.
Doug
Quote from: Doug on January 09, 2012, 03:38:56 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 03:18:23 AM
Quote from: Doug on January 09, 2012, 03:12:42 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 02:44:34 AM
...
Yes, that's what he says to the house of Israel [Ephraim]---he's utterly taken them away--scatters them to the four corners of the earth where they worship other gods.
He even divorces them.
They become...gasp....Gentiles.
BUT
it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
Hos 1
Paul interprets this and uses it to show how the calling of the Gentiles fits God's plan. Saying these Gentiles were really Israelites of the lost ten tribes undermines Paul's argument. IMO.
Romans 9
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Doug
But, Paul is quoting exactly from Hos 1 in Rom 9.
He knows that prophecy was given to the house of Israel.
And, now he's applying it to Gentiles--the exact same prophecy.
So in Hosea 1 we have house of Judah and house of Israel.
And, in Romans 9 we have Jews and Gentiles.
I don't know what else to say. I don't see how it could be clearer.
If you prophecy over one group of people and suddenly another group fulfills the prophecy 800 years later, couldn't we assume they are the same group?
Wouldn't a rose by any other name smell as sweet?
It doesn't matter what name you give them, house of Israel or Gentile Christians, they both fit the description.
So, if all the Christians in those days were really Israelites after the flesh and not Gentiles, why was Paul so sorrowful, in the beginning of the chapter?
Romans 9
1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
If they were Israelites after the flesh this sorrow about their unbelief would be meaningless.
Doug
He's sorrowful over the house of Judah who is being shut out of the great commission for a time while the Gentiles are brought [back] in.
He is house of Judah, Jesus is house of Judah after the flesh, they carried the law and rebuilt the Temple, and now all this fuss is being made over the youngest son who has returned home.
In Romans 11 he talks about how in times past the Gentiles didn't believe and Judah did, and now the Jews don't believe and the Gentiles do.
It's just the way God is doing it--so it will be clear to everyone who is in charge.
29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief,
that he might have mercy upon all.Rom 11
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 02:42:53 AM
Quote from: Doug on January 09, 2012, 02:40:28 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 02:23:45 AM
Quote from: Doug on January 09, 2012, 02:21:13 AM
Jesus said: "salvation is of the Jews." [John 4:22]
Doug
I don't think you answered my question. Who is the younger son?
There are two groups of Jews mentioned in the account below, publicans and sinners, and Pharisees. Which group do you think would best fit the role of the younger son in the parable?
Matthew 9:10-13
10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Doug
Neither.
Okay, let's try again.
Luke 18:10-14
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Which of the two men compares with the younger son in the parable of the prodigal son?
Which one compares with the older son?
Doug
Quote from: Doug on January 09, 2012, 03:54:08 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 02:42:53 AM
Quote from: Doug on January 09, 2012, 02:40:28 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 02:23:45 AM
Quote from: Doug on January 09, 2012, 02:21:13 AM
Jesus said: "salvation is of the Jews." [John 4:22]
Doug
I don't think you answered my question. Who is the younger son?
There are two groups of Jews mentioned in the account below, publicans and sinners, and Pharisees. Which group do you think would best fit the role of the younger son in the parable?
Matthew 9:10-13
10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Doug
Neither.
Okay, let's try again.
Luke 18:10-14
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Which of the two men compares with the younger son in the parable of the prodigal son?
Which one compares with the older son?
Doug
Is the publican a Jew or a Gentile?
One thing I want to point out again. The reason they are called 'Jews' is because they are house of Judah.
House of Judah is NOT all 12 tribes.
The northern 10 tribes are the house of Israel.
These names get all mixed up with each other, but it's important to know who we are talking about.
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 04:01:19 AM
Quote from: Doug on January 09, 2012, 03:54:08 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 02:42:53 AM
Quote from: Doug on January 09, 2012, 02:40:28 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 02:23:45 AM
Quote from: Doug on January 09, 2012, 02:21:13 AM
Jesus said: "salvation is of the Jews." [John 4:22]
Doug
I don't think you answered my question. Who is the younger son?
There are two groups of Jews mentioned in the account below, publicans and sinners, and Pharisees. Which group do you think would best fit the role of the younger son in the parable?
Matthew 9:10-13
10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Doug
Neither.
Okay, let's try again.
Luke 18:10-14
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Which of the two men compares with the younger son in the parable of the prodigal son?
Which one compares with the older son?
Doug
Is the publican a Jew or a Gentile?
One thing I want to point out again. The reason they are called 'Jews' is because they are house of Judah.
House of Judah is NOT all 12 tribes.
The northern 10 tribes are the house of Israel.
These names get all mixed up with each other, but it's important to know who we are talking about.
Until the Babylonian exile, they were separate. After the return, people of all the tribes were considered Jews. The prophecy of the two sticks becoming one stick in Ezekiel 37 probably represents this process.
Easton's Bible Dictionary
The name derived from the patriarch Judah, at first given to one belonging to the tribe of Judah or to the separate kingdom of Judah (2 Kings 16:6; 25:25; Jeremiah 32:12; 38:19; 40:11; 41:3), in contradistinction from those belonging to the kingdom of the ten tribes, who were called Israelites.
During the Captivity, and after the Restoration, the name, however, was extended to all the Hebrew nation without distinction (Esther 3:6, 10; Dan. 3:8, 12; Ezra 4:12; 5:1, 5).
Originally this people were called Hebrews (Genesis 39:14; 40:15; Exodus 2:7; 3:18; 5:3; 1 Samuel 4:6, 9, etc.), but after the Exile this name fell into disuse. But Paul was styled a Hebrew (2 Corinthians 11:22; Philippians 3:5).
The history of the Jewish nation is interwoven with the history of Palestine and with the narratives of the lives of their rulers and chief men. They are now [1897] dispersed over all lands, and to this day remain a separate people, "without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image [R.V. `pillar,' marg. `obelisk'], and without an ephod, and without teraphim" (Hosea 3:4). Till about the beginning of the present century [1800] they were everywhere greatly oppressed, and often cruelly persecuted; but now their condition is greatly improved, and they are admitted in most European countries to all the rights of free citizens. In 1860 the "Jewish disabilities" were removed, and they were admitted to a seat in the British Parliament. Their number in all is estimated at about six millions, about four millions being in Europe.
There are three names used in the New Testament to designate this people,
(1.) Jews, as regards their nationality, to distinguish them from Gentiles.
(2.) Hebrews, with regard to their language and education, to distinguish them from Hellenists, i.e., Jews who spoke the Greek language.
(3.) Israelites, as respects their sacred privileges as the chosen people of God. "To other races we owe the splendid inheritance of modern civilization and secular culture; but the religious education of mankind has been the gift of the Jew alone."
Noah Webster's New International Dictionary of the English Language
(n.) Originally, one belonging to the tribe or kingdom of Judah; after the return from the Babylonish captivity, any member of the new state; a Hebrew; an Israelite.
Judaism 101
Who Is a Jew? (http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm)
Originally, the term Yehudi referred specifically to members of the tribe of Judah, as distinguished from the other tribes of Israel. However, after the death of King Solomon, the nation of Israel was split into two kingdoms: the kingdom of Judah and the kingdom of Israel (I Kings 12; II Chronicles 10). After that time, the word Yehudi could properly be used to describe anyone from the kingdom of Judah, which included the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi, as well as scattered settlements from other tribes. The most obvious biblical example of this usage is in Esther 2:5, where Mordecai is referred to as both a Yehudi and a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
In the 6th century B.C.E., the kingdom of Israel was conquered by Assyria and the ten tribes were exiled from the land (II Kings 17), leaving only the tribes in the kingdom of Judah remaining to carry on Abraham's heritage. These people of the kingdom of Judah were generally known to themselves and to other nations as Yehudim (Jews), and that name continues to be used today.
In common speech, the word "Jew" is used to refer to all of the physical and spiritual descendants of Jacob/Israel, as well as to the patriarchs Abraham and Isaac and their wives, and the word "Judaism" is used to refer to their beliefs. Technically, this usage is inaccurate, just as it is technically inaccurate to use the word "Indian" to refer to the original inhabitants of the Americas. However, this technically inaccurate usage is common both within the Jewish community and outside of it, and is therefore used throughout this site.
Doug
Quote from: DougDuring the Captivity, and after the Restoration, the name, however, was extended to all the Hebrew nation without distinction (Esther 3:6, 10; Dan. 3:8, 12; Ezra 4:12; 5:1, 5).
That's because only the house of Judah came back. There were two different captivities. House of Israel [northern 10 tribes] was taken captive by assyria about 200 years earlier.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 08, 2012, 08:15:11 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 07, 2012, 04:31:10 PM
For Jehovah hath prepared a new thing in the land, Woman doth compass man.
Revelation 12
1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered...........
5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Amen!
There is an article on archaeological excavations at Tel Dan here (http://popular-archaeology.com/issue/december-2011/article/archaeologists-excavate-legendary-city-of-dan).
Doug
Was Abraham a Jew?
or
Was Abraham a Gentile?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 09, 2012, 05:48:36 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on January 08, 2012, 08:15:11 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 07, 2012, 04:31:10 PM
For Jehovah hath prepared a new thing in the land, Woman doth compass man.
Revelation 12
1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered...........
5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Amen!
Amen!
This is kind of interesting from an old time Bible preacher. I had shorten it quite a bit to fit it on here unfortunately.
It is very important for every student of prophecy, in fact, it is absolutely necessary for their understanding, to see the distinction the Bible makes between the Jews and the other Tribes of Israel.
The Bible Distinction Between
"The House of Israel"
and
"The House of Judah"
Radio Address by F. F. Bosworth
RADIO ADDRESS
By Evangelist F. F. Bosworth
Today there is much teaching on the subject of prophecy, and it is important that there should be. It is very important for every student of prophecy, in fact, it is absolutely necessary for their understanding, to see the distinction the Bible makes between the Jews and the other Tribes of Israel. Until this distinction between the two Houses, Israel and Judah, as that distinction is taught in the Scriptures, is clearly understood, a great portion of the Bible will remain a closed book. This clear distinction between the two Houses is never lost sight of in the Bible, and until it is understood, it is impossible to follow the truth of Scripture on this subject, or to understand the Bible story of Israel.
Many people today suppose that where Israel is mentioned in the Bible, it means the Jews. We read articles and hear sermons today in which the writers and speakers refer to "Abraham, the Jew." Isaac and Jacob are often called Jews, the most absurd and impossible thing as we shall see from the Scriptures. It is a common thing today to hear ministers and writers use such phrases as the following:
"The Jews in Egypt"
"The Exodus of the Jews"
"The Jews at Mt. Sinai"
"When the Jews entered Canaan"
"12 Tribes of the Jews"
"Abraham, the Jew"
Thousands of Christians use the terms "Israel," and "Jew," "The House of Israel," "The House of Judah," employing these and similar words and phrases as if they always referred to the same people. They do not know that according to Biblical history, there were no "Jews" known as such until about 15 centuries after Abraham was born, and until 600 years after the death of Moses.
Most Hebrews Not Jews
Beginning with Adam, we have the start, not only of chronology, but of the genealogical tables of the Bible. There are ten generations from Adam to Noah, and ten generations from Shem (Noah's son) to Abraham. Eber or Heber was the fourth in generation from Shem. All of the descendants of Heber were Hebrews. Abraham was six generations later. He, therefore, was a Hebrew. The Hebrews were not Jews, because Judah, from whom the Jews descended, was not yet born. When the time came that there were Jews on the earth, of course, they also were Hebrews - a very small portion of them - but the great mass of Hebrews were not Jews, and are not today.
To call Abraham a Jew would make him a descendant of Isaac's yet unborn grandson Judah. The Tribe of Judah had no existence on earth during the time of Abraham and Isaac.
Descendants Do Not Name Their Ancestors
Abraham was the father of Isaac; Isaac was the father of Jacob; Jacob, who was later named "Israel," became the father of Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphthali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph and Benjamin. The 12 sons each became the head of a Tribe called after his own personal name. From Judah, the fourth son of Jacob, are descended the Jews; the word "Jew" being simply an abbreviation of the name "Judah." A glance at the geneology will show that it is impossible for Abraham, or Isaac, or Jacob, to have been Jews. Only the descendants of Judah - those coming after him, could be called by his name - not his ancestors. No one had ever been named "Judah" until more than 200 years after Abraham was named.
Israel and Judah Separate Nations
The 12 Tribes of Israel became two nations, with widely different destinies, until the time when they will be united in the coming age. (Ezek. 37:22) The distinction or separation between Judah and Israel was foreshadowed at an early date. We read in Psalm 114:1, 2 "When Israel went out of Egypt...Judah was His sanctuary and Israel His dominion." In Samuel's day, the two Houses, Judah and Israel, were numbered separately. In I Samuel 11:8 we read "And when he numbered them in Bezek, the children of Israel were three hundred thousands and the men of Judah thirty thousand." Notice that even at this early date, Israel numbered ten times more than Judah. The Numerical contrast today is very much greater. The Bible tells us that the Jews would be "few in number," but it tells us that Israel would be as the sands of the sea for multitudes (Hosea 1:10). Until the year 975 B.C. the descendants of Jacob formed one nation. But they are spoken of as "the two families which the Lord hath chosen" (Jer. 33:24).
In the year 975 B.C. at the death of King Solomon, the nation was divided into two nations. In II Chronicles 10:12-14 we are told that when Solomon died, and his son Rehoboam came to the throne, the ten tribes rebelled, and under Jereboam, formed the NORTHERN NATION; while Judah, along with Benjamin and certain Levites, formed the SOUTHERN NATION.
The NORTHERN NATION, which consisted of the Ten Tribes, was known under the following national titles: Israel, Ephraim, Isaac, Samaria, The House of Israel, and The Ten Tribes.
THE DIVISION WAS OF GOD
The SOUTHERN NATION, which consisted of the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin, was known as "Judah," "The House of Judah" or "The Jews." The capital of the SOUTHERN NATION was Jerusalem. If I had more time, I would quote you the Scriptures which show that this division of the Tribes of Israel into two nations was Divinely Predetermined, Divinely Predicted, Divinely Emphasized, Divinely Maintained, Divinely Accomplished, Divinely Explained, Divinely Approved. The Scriptures show that this division into Two Kingdoms had behind it and controlling it, the fore-ordaining eternal councils of God; and it took place for great, beneficent, well-defined and Divine reasons.
Cont'd
In Jeremiah the 3rd chapter, Israel is five times called "Backsliding Israel," a term never once applied to Judah, and Judah is four times called "Treacherous Judah," a term not once applied to Israel. I will read you this passage: "And I saw, when for all the causes whereby BACKSLIDING Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also." (Jer. 3:8) Ask those who declare that Israel and Judah are the same people to read that passage, analyzing it in the light of their belief. And there are many such passages showing the clear distinction between Israel and Judah. There are more than 2000 references to Israel in the Bible that have no reference whatever to the Jews. On the other hand, there are more than five hundred references to Judah that have no reference to Israel, and yet there are those continually trying to tell us there is no distinction between Israel and Judah, and continually refer to Israel as Jews, and even change the name of Judah to Israel. It is absurd as to use the words America and England interchangeably.
Here is another quotation for them to explain: "Backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah." Make Israel and Judah one and the same people referred to, and the statement becomes ridiculous. The 12 sons of Jacob were Hebrews and Israelites, but they were not Jews. The same may be said of Moses and Aaron, of the people of the Northern Kingdom, of Elijah and Elisha. To avoid confusion over the expression "Israel" it is necessary to determine in which sense it is used in any particular passage, whether it means: (1) "The whole of the Twelve Tribes; (2) Or the House of Judah alone as being a part of the Twelve Tribes; (3) Or the Ten-Tribed Kingdom."
Ten Tribed Israel Never Called Jews
Nothing can be more unscriptural than to call all Israelites "Jews;" it is as absurd as calling all Americans Californians. Most of Israelites are not Jews because they are the descendants of the other tribes of Israel. There is just as much reason for calling all Israelites "Danites" or "Gadites" or "Ephramites" as there is for calling them Judahites or "Jews." It is just as reasonable to call all "Jews" "Danites" as it is to call all "Danites" "Jews." The term Jew is never used until more than a thousand years after Abraham. It appears for the first time in II Kings 16:6, where we are told that the King of Israel, together with the King of Assyria, made war against the King of Judah. Now since in this passage Israel, one Kingdom, made ware against the Jews, another Kingdom, how can they both be the Jews? The Scriptures never once refer to the Ten-Tribed House of Israel as "The Jews;" neither past, present, nor future. The term "The Jews" is never, in God's Word, applied to the 12 Tribes, collectively, or to the Ten-Tribed House of Israel.
In Jeremiah 13:11, nearly 400 years after the tribes were divided by God into the two kingdoms, "The Whole House of Israel" and "The Whole House of Judah" are both spoken of in the same verse, proving that neither House without the other constitutes all of the Lord's chosen people. "The Whole House of Judah" are not all of the Lord's people, and "The Whole House of Israel" are not all of the Lord's people. It takes "The Whole House of Israel" together with "The Whole House of Judah" to make all of God's chosen people; and comparatively few of these are Jews. This text proves conclusively that there is a people called the "Whole House of Israel" of which the "Whole House of Judah" is regarded as neither part nor parcel. The Holy Spirit has never either in Biblical history or prophecy, called the 10 Tribed House of Israel "Jews". They have never been called "Jews" except by uninformed and unscriptural teachers.
Birthright People Are Not Jews
The fact that Jacob's two wives, Leah and Rachel, are spoken of as "building the House of Israel," of necessity divides the immediate household of Jacob into "two families." In Jeremiah 33:24 they are spoken of as "the two families which the Lord hath chosen." The Covenant promise of the BIRTHRIGHT was given to one of these families, and that of the SCEPTRE to the other family. Rachel was to be the mother of "thousands of millions" while Leah was to be the mother of royalty. Genesis 49:10 shows us that Judah represents the SCEPTRE family; and I Chronicles 5:2 tells us "THE BIRTHRIGHT is Joseph's." Never try to apply a BIRTHRIGHT blessing to the Jews. Judah and the Jews were excluded from the BIRTHRIGHT promises, Joseph from the SCEPTRE. The BIRTHRIGHT people are not, and are never in the Scriptures called Jews.
In Ezekiel the 37th chapter we are told that "the two sticks" which are still separate, but which are yet to be reunited, represent Judah on the one hand, and Joseph and the "House of Israel" on the other. One of these sticks represents the SCEPTRE people and the other the BIRTHRIGHT people. Judah, the inheritor of the SCEPTRE, is only a half bother to Joseph, the inheritor of the BIRTHRIGHT. The SCEPTRE and the BIRTHRIGHT inheritors are "two-families" with different mothers. How could the distinction between the SCEPTRE and the BIRTHRIGHT families Judah and Israel be more emphatic?
Israel Distinct From Judah
Unless we see the distinction between the "House of Israel" and the "House of Judah" from the time of the division till the final and glorious reunion of the Two Houses, which will take place at the end of the "latter days," the prophecies concerning Israel cannot be understood. From the time of the division into two kingdoms until now, Judah and Israel have remained absolutely distinct. They were carried into captivity separately, at different times and by different nations, because Israel was taken into captivity by the Assyrians, 721 B.C. (II Kings 17:6); while Judah was carried into captivity 133 years later by the Babylonians 588 B.C. (II Kings 25:21). A portion of Judah returned after 70 years, as had been predicted (Ezra 2:1), but Israel never returned, nor was there any prediction that she would return until the final, glorious, restoration in the near future. All the prophecies were written after the division of the tribes into two nations; and these prophecies give the whole future of Israel as entirely distinct from Judah.
The great Jewish historian Josephus, writing from Rome in the year 70 A.D. which was nearly 800 years after Israel was taken into captivity by the Assyrians says: "The entire body of the 10 Tribes are still beyond the Euphrates, an immense multitude not to be estimated by number." It is estimated that there were 50 million in Israel at the time of the division, and this was 800 years later.
Rev. Canon Faucett M.A. says in his "Critical and Expository Bible Encyclopedia" The idea that the House of Israel has been amalgamated and incorporated with the "Jews," is one of the most amazing errors in Biblical History.
The prophets write of Israel and Judah still being separate people in "the latter days," or the days of the Gospel dispensation. In the 37th chapter of Ezekiel is a prophecy yet to be fulfilled. God promising to unite the stick of Joseph, representing the House of Israel with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick in His hand. This and many other Scriptures require that Israel and Judah be kept separate until this union which has not yet taken place.
According to the prophet Hosea, the House of Israel in the last days was to become as the sands of the sea for number, before their reunion with the House of Judah, and their return, representatively, to Palestine (Hosea 1:10, 11). Also Jeremiah writes: "When ye be multiplied and increased in the land in those days...the House of Judah shall walk with the House of Israel and they shall come together out of the land of the north, to the land that I gave for an inheritance unto your Fathers" (Jer. 3:16-18).
In Jeremiah 30:3, 4 we have a prophecy yet to be fulfilled concerning the uniting of the two Houses. Here we read: "For the days come, saith the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity of MY PEOPLE Israel and Judah; and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah." Here God calls Israel and Judah "My People Israel and Judah." So if Judah, the Jews, are the people of the Lord, then the Lord has a people besides the Jews whom He calls Israel and who are not counted among the Jews.
Long before the division took place, Moses, while prophesying unto the seed of Jacob, cried out: "Hear, Lord, the voice of Judah and bring him unto his people: (Deut. 33:7). This plainly shows that Judah was to be separated from his people and finally brought back to them. And the Scriptures tell us that shall not be until at the end of "the last days."
No Evidence For Amalgamation Theory
Orthodox Jews, even to this day, know that they do not represent the Ten-Tribed House of Israel. On the day of the Feast of Trumpets and on the Day of Atonement, they include in their prayer Jeremiah 31:20, and pray that Ephraim Israel (the Ten-Tribes) may be united with them. If we had time, we could quote from the testimony of Jewish scholars, and from their literature, showing that they know they are not representatives of the Ten-Tribed House of Israel. We have quotations from the "Jewish Encyclopedia," "The Jewish Religion," "The Jewish Chronicle," Rabbi Gershom, Prof. Neubauer, "The History and Literature of the Israelites," "The Jewish Quarterly Review," etc. The Rabbi Dr. Hertz, of London, says: "People known at present as Jews are descendants of the Tribes of Judah and Benjamin...we look forward to the gathering of all the Tribes at some future date." The learned Isaac Leiser says that "The Israelitish nation was left in banishment after the return of the Jews from Babylon." Professor Neubauer wrote: "The hope of the return of the ten tribes has never ceased among the jews in exile." Josephus, a Jew, and loyal to Jewish history and tradition, wrote about 70 A.D. or about 800 years after the captivity of Ten-Tribed Israel as follows: "The 10 Tribes did not return to Palestine; only two Tribes served the Romans after Palestine became a Roman province."
Jeremiah prophesied that only they who were taken by Nebuchadnezzar to Babylon were to return. Then the historical fulfillment of that prophecy must see only a return of those taken to Babylon. Both Ezra and Nehemiah testify to the fact that historically only those taken by Nebuchadnezzar to Babylon did return (Ezra Chapter 2: Nehemiah Chapter 7).
The return to Palestine of the 10 Tribes at any time in the past is contrary to Kings and Chronicles, contrary to Ezra, Nehemiah, Zechariah, Jerome and Josephus, and to history. In the prophecy that the "Two Sticks," Judah, and the House of Israel will become "one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one King (the Lord Jesus Christ) shall be King to them all" we have Divine proof that the two Houses are still separate, because Christ is not reigning over them as King at the present time.
God divided the Abrahamic promises among Jacob's twelve sons, and when He said through Jacob that Ephraim's "Seed shall become a multitude of nations." He was not referring to the Jews who never have or ever will be "a multitude of nations," God was speaking to the BIRTHRIGHT heirs. The "Nation and a Company of Nations" promised in Gen. 35:11 was a BIRTHRIGHT BLESSING TO BE FULFILLED" in the last days before Christ's Return (Gen. 49:1) to Joseph and his descendants (I Chron. 5:1), none of which are Jews. In Jer. 31:9, God said, "Ephraim is My firstborn," and in Gen. 48:19, Jacob said of Ephraim, "His seed shall become a multitude of nations" - just the opposite of what was said of Judah - "He shall become a remnant." That this promise to Israel was not to Judah is proven by the fact that Judah has never been a multitude of nations, and never will be.
The Amalgamation Theory Receives No
Support From Holy Scripture
The book of Micah plainly teaches that the Jews who "halted" were to become "A remnant," while Israel "that was cast far off," was to become "a strong nation" (Micah 4:7). The bringing together of these "two families" is to be associated with the Kingdom-Age. Till then, they would be separate. Some errors are slow in dying but this amalgamation-assumption which falsifies hundreds of Scriptures is now only lingering upon its death bed.
It is important to notice that neither the Major nor the Minor Prophets appear in the Old Testament until about 200 years after the division of the Twelve Tribes into two nations. What then did they find was the condition of God's chosen race? Was there any sign of amalgamation among them? Not a scintilla. The prophets found them still divided into two nations; as separate as France and Italy, or Britain and America. They had separate Kings, separate administrations, separate national alliances, and of course, separate national titles. The National title of the Ten Tribes was "Israel," or "Ephraim," because the Tribe of Ephraim had become the Tribe of the Birthright owing to the sin of Reuben. We have seen that the national title of the other two tribes was "Judah," a remnant of which were later called "The Jews."
It was during this state of affairs that the prophets commenced their ministry - some residing in the territory of Israel, and others in that of Judah. The Prophets addressed these two nations by the names that God gave them - "Israel" being the title which the Northern Nation had decided to retain; and "Judah" being the title which the Southern Nation had decided to assume . Hence we find that all through their writings, whether of warning, of rebuking, or directing, or consoling; and whether their words were historical or prophetical, the prophets recognized the separate condition of the Two Nations, and accordingly addressed them by their chosen and well-known national titles.
Ten Tribed Israel a Non-Jewish People
The separation into the Two Nations took place many years before any of the major or minor prophets wrote; therefore, the "Israel" known to Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, the minor prophets, our Lord, the evangelists, and the apostles, had no Tribe of Judah in it. Israel, as known to all of these writers, was a non-Jewish people. Israel has remained a non-Jewish people to this day. The amalgamation theory is hopelessly discredited in the presence of the Bible. The closing books of Bible history leave Israel and Judah in separation from each other, while Bible prophecy keeps them separated until reconciled and united in the Kingdom-Age, and are dwelling representatively in the Holy Land under the personal reign of the Lord Jesus Christ, their welcomed and Crowned Messiah.
Hosea's statement that Israel shall be "as the sand of the sea which cannot be measured nor numbered" is not made concerning Judah (Hosea 1:10). In the first chapter we read "Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel." Did the two nations of captives "gather together" and amalgamate while in the land of their captivities? Did they "together appoint themselves one head" when the small remnant of Judah returned from Babylon? Both Ezra and Nehemiah, who were the historians of the Babylonian return, inform us that this was not the case.
For instance, to apply to the Jews the many Scriptures which require that the descendants of Ephraim shall be "a multitude (or Commonwealth) of Nations" (Gen. 48:19) in these "last days," before the union of the Two Houses, Judah and Israel, would be equivalent to saying that the only "Commonwealth of Nations" on earth today are Jews.The Promise of "A Multitude of Nations" was made to Ephraim, not to Judah.
http://www.truthinhistory.org/the-house-of-israel-and-the-house-of-judah.html
Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 09, 2012, 05:56:41 AM
Was Abraham a Jew?
or
Was Abraham a Gentile?
I think Abraham was the first Hebrew (covenant of circumscision.....set apart)
Quote from: Doug on January 08, 2012, 09:42:24 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on January 08, 2012, 08:13:17 PM
...
This is the importance in Galatians, of Paul's point that the covenant, previously ratified in Abraham, to his "seed"(Christ), could not be pre-empted or over charged by a later covenant ratified in law(earthly Israel), but was rather the superior enforceable covenant, now carried in the spirit unto "all" who believe, earthly bloodline no longer relevant("there is not here Jew or Greek").
Paul identified the covenant that was ratified to Abraham with the gospel. "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed." [Galatians 3:8]
To be included in the blessing of the covenant is by faith, and is not based on ethnic descent. Belief in God is necessary, not Israelite ancestry. The dispensationalists point to the modern Jewish state as the partial fulfillment of the promises, but that country is not the "Israel of God." According to Paul in Romans 9:6, "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." In 11:17 he described Jews who did not believe as branches broken off from their tree. This implies the Israel to which the promises apply, and to which prophecy applies, is the church, not ethnic Jews, the USA and Britain, or American Indians, etc.
Doug
Amen
Quote from: eaglesway on January 09, 2012, 08:47:47 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 09, 2012, 05:56:41 AM
Was Abraham a Jew?
or
Was Abraham a Gentile?
I think Abraham was the first Hebrew (covenant of circumscision.....set apart)
The covenant was made with Abraham before he was circumcised.
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. Rom 4:11
First Hebrew is Eber.
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 07:59:30 AM
This is kind of interesting from an old time Bible preacher. I had shorten it quite a bit to fit it on here unfortunately.
It is very important for every student of prophecy, in fact, it is absolutely necessary for their understanding, to see the distinction the Bible makes between the Jews and the other Tribes of Israel.
The Bible Distinction Between
"The House of Israel"
and
"The House of Judah"
Radio Address by F. F. Bosworth
RADIO ADDRESS
By Evangelist F. F. Bosworth
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F._F._Bosworth) says:
British Israelism
During the gap in information from 1934 to 1944, it appears Bosworth accepted at least some elements of British Israel theology and left the Alliance church, not to return until 1944, when he was welcomed back into the Alliance, was asked to preach at one of their conventions and along the way publicly apologized for having been in error. While some who follow British Israelism claim that F.F. Bosworth maintained a British Israel view of prophecy until his death, they do not offer any evidence to support this other than radio one sermon by Bosworth, which does not go to the extremes many do with that doctrine.
:dontknow:
Doug
Quote from: Doug on January 09, 2012, 03:04:18 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 07:59:30 AM
This is kind of interesting from an old time Bible preacher. I had shorten it quite a bit to fit it on here unfortunately.
It is very important for every student of prophecy, in fact, it is absolutely necessary for their understanding, to see the distinction the Bible makes between the Jews and the other Tribes of Israel.
The Bible Distinction Between
"The House of Israel"
and
"The House of Judah"
Radio Address by F. F. Bosworth
RADIO ADDRESS
By Evangelist F. F. Bosworth
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F._F._Bosworth) says:
British Israelism
During the gap in information from 1934 to 1944, it appears Bosworth accepted at least some elements of British Israel theology and left the Alliance church, not to return until 1944, when he was welcomed back into the Alliance, was asked to preach at one of their conventions and along the way publicly apologized for having been in error. While some who follow British Israelism claim that F.F. Bosworth maintained a British Israel view of prophecy until his death, they do not offer any evidence to support this other than radio one sermon by Bosworth, which does not go to the extremes many do with that doctrine.
:dontknow:
Doug
I don't think you can come to any reasonable conclusions about who is who.
I don't know what British Israelism is exactly. [British are tribe of Ephraim?]
But, don't you agree that the Christians are Israel?
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 04:45:24 PM
But, don't you agree that the Christians are Israel?
I believe Paul, "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:" [Philippians 3:3-4]
He was an Israelite, but discounted that, and said he had "no confidence in the flesh," or his lineage, and descent from Abraham. It was of no account whatsoever.
Jesus showed what being a true Israelite means.
John 1:47
Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
And Jesus said, "salvation is of the Jews." [John 4:22]
Paul said,
Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Judah means "praise," and here, Paul indicates that those who obtain praise of God, are the real Jews.
Thus the terms "Jew" and "Israel" have a spiritual meaning in the NT. Understanding this is a key to understanding prophecy, which is also shown by Ezekiel's prophecy in Ezekiel 37 about the two sticks becoming one.
In Revelation 7, the 12 tribes of Israel which are sealed represent the church, believers of all races, and nations, who are called in the present age. The are described further in chapter 14, as "they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." [Revelation 14:4-5]
They are "not defiled with women" because they are not false prophets; not meaning their sexual experience literally, but in a figure, or metaphor of being faithful to the truth, and not being
deceived. It alludes, I think, to 2 Cor. 11:2-3, where Paul wrote:
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Saying that the Christians of all nations descend from the lost ten tribes is absurd, IMO. There are Chinese, Korean, Japanese, native African, Egyptian, Arab, Iranian, Indian, Nepalese, Indonesian, Maori, -- believers are of all nations and races. They are part of the Israel of God through faith, not through ethnic descent.
Doug
Ok, I think I see what you're saying now.
But, bear with me.
God divided the 12 tribes into two houses, Israel and Judah.
He gave Israel the birthright blessings and Judah the scepter [that is, splitting the covenant with Abraham in two].
We know this from OT scripture.
This actually happened physically in the OT, that is, there were people of both houses, and the houses were separated.
And, also the birthright blessings and the scepter worked out physically, as well,-- house of Judah came back from captivity with the scepter, house of Israel went off and multiplied itself all over the world with the birthright blessings and became a no people until Jesus came.
Now on the cross, Jesus has taken the birthright blessings of house of Israel [a.k.a. gentiles] and the scepter of house of Judah [a.k.a. Jews] and put them together [broken down the wall of partition] into one new creation, but this was done spiritually.
THIS is what you are focusing on. The two sticks were combined spiritually on the cross--so now there is neither Jew nor Greek--but one new man in Christ Jesus.
This spiritual man [combination of the spiritual gifts of both houses] is now called the Israel of God.
But, if I could take this a little further--
This new creation man is only given an earnest of his [OT promised] inheritance now, that is, a portion, a downpayment.
When he is given the full inheritance, we will see the manifested sons of God. This is an end time prophecy.
Also, to take it a little further--
As real people are being brought into the covenant, we see the gentiles being brought in first, and the Jews last. This is also based on prophecy from the OT, whcih allows us to identify the gentiles as house of Israel and the Jews as house of Judah. <----- This is the part you don't like because you think it detracts from the spiritual man who is the new creation, and is maybe even irrelevant. But I like it because I'm a literalist who wants to see a beginning, a middle, and an end to the story.
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 09:06:59 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on January 09, 2012, 08:47:47 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 09, 2012, 05:56:41 AM
Was Abraham a Jew?
or
Was Abraham a Gentile?
I think Abraham was the first Hebrew (covenant of circumscision.....set apart)
The covenant was made with Abraham before he was circumcised.
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. Rom 4:11
First Hebrew is Eber.
Circumcision was the sign of of the covenant. The covenant was begun in Abram/Abraham. The nation, against which the word Gentile has any meaning, is Israel- a nation named in Abraham's seed. This nation of which I speak, and it's covenant whether you want to call it Hebrew or Jew or Israelite, or whatever other endless gnat straining we can engage in, began with Abraham. He was the first, the covenant was initiated with him, that person- Abram, Abraham, him....... you kno :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on January 09, 2012, 09:23:25 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 09:06:59 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on January 09, 2012, 08:47:47 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 09, 2012, 05:56:41 AM
Was Abraham a Jew?
or
Was Abraham a Gentile?
I think Abraham was the first Hebrew (covenant of circumscision.....set apart)
The covenant was made with Abraham before he was circumcised.
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. Rom 4:11
First Hebrew is Eber.
Circumcision was the sign of of the covenant. The covenant was begun in Abram/Abraham. The nation, against which the word Gentile has any meaning, is Israel- a nation named in Abraham's seed. This nation of which I speak, and it's covenant whether you want to call it Hebrew or Jew or Israelite, or whatever other endless gnat straining we can engage in, began with Abraham. He was the first, the covenant was initiated with him, that person- Abram, Abraham, him....... you kno :o)
Yes, I know.
But, Abraham was first circumcised by heart.
Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was
seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran
--Gen 12
14And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
15For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
16And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
17Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.
--Gen 13
1After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2And Abram said, LORD God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. Gen 15
What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."--Rom 4:3
7And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
8And he said, LORD God, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
9And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
10And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.
11And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.
12And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
13And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance
--Gen 15
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. Rom 4:11
Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations
have I made thee. Gen 17:5
Genesis 17:24
And Abraham was
ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
PS Once you really understand the OT, it is a UR message.
Quote from: eagleswaywhatever other endless gnat straining we can engage in
I don't see this as gnat straining. I see it as very important stuff.
But, if you consider it that, I suppose I could just stop wasting my precious time.
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 10:36:30 PM
Quote from: eagleswaywhatever other endless gnat straining we can engage in
I don't see this as gnat straining. I see it as very important stuff.
But, if you consider it that, I suppose I could just stop wasting my precious time.
Here is something to consider; in the days of Elijah there was famine in Israel for three years and six months. Jesus mentioned this.
Luke 4:24-26
And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.
But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.The point that Jesus made, I think, was that a
Gentile woman, who was a widow, received the benefits of caring for Elijah during the famine. She possessed a cruse of oil that did not fail, and a barrel of meal that did not run out, while she looked after Elijah. Jesus was pointing out to the Jews that a
Gentile woman, not an
Israelite, was blessed.
Some see in this an analogy with the church, which possesses the Spirit of God. The Spirit is represented by the prophet Elijah. The oil and the bread both represent the Spiritual nourishment of the church, which is scarce throughout the present age. The Gospel was preached to the Gentiles, and the Spirit has been sustained among the Gentile saints, over the centuries, during a time of spiritual famine. The three years and six months represent the whole age of the church, since the apostolic age, when there is a famine of "hearing the words of the LORD." [Amos 8:11] The prophecy of the two witnesses also applies. The duration of their ministry corresponds; 1,260 days.
The spiritual famine has led to tens of thousands of sects and denominations where the saints are scattered.
The incident when the woman's son died, and was revived by Elijah, is thought to foreshadow the resurrection of Christ. This interpretation tends to support the idea that most Christians are
not remnants of the lost ten tribes, but are of Gentile origin.
Doug
Quote from: Doug on January 10, 2012, 01:00:48 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 09, 2012, 10:36:30 PM
Quote from: eagleswaywhatever other endless gnat straining we can engage in
I don't see this as gnat straining. I see it as very important stuff.
But, if you consider it that, I suppose I could just stop wasting my precious time.
Here is something to consider; in the days of Elijah there was famine in Israel for three years and six months. Jesus mentioned this.
Luke 4:24-26
And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.
But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.
The point that Jesus made, I think, was that a Gentile woman, who was a widow, received the benefits of caring for Elijah during the famine. She possessed a cruse of oil that did not fail, and a barrel of meal that did not run out, while she looked after Elijah. Jesus was pointing out to the Jews that a Gentile woman, not an Israelite, was blessed.
Some see in this an analogy with the church, which possesses the Spirit of God. The Spirit is represented by the prophet Elijah. The oil and the bread both represent the Spiritual nourishment of the church, which is scarce throughout the present age. The Gospel was preached to the Gentiles, and the Spirit has been sustained among the Gentile saints, over the centuries, during a time of spiritual famine. The three years and six months represent the whole age of the church, since the apostolic age, when there is a famine of "hearing the words of the LORD." [Amos 8:11] The prophecy of the two witnesses also applies. The duration of their ministry corresponds; 1,260 days.
The spiritual famine has led to tens of thousands of sects and denominations where the saints are scattered.
The incident when the woman's son died, and was revived by Elijah, is thought to foreshadow the resurrection of Christ. This interpretation tends to support the idea that most Christians are not remnants of the lost ten tribes, but are of Gentile origin.
Doug
Molly, I apologize. I really wasn t trying to single you out. I am gnat strainer too at times :o). It does seem to me that sometimes, when we are trying to reach the spiritual core of things, we all get tripped up in details. Maybe not meaningless details- but if I can't hear what someone is saying because they don't see evry detail the way I see it- I am wasting my time and theirs. To all, please understand that I have no intention of demanding that anyone see my point of view. I just present it for the purpose of discussion and mutual edification, without apology, but hopefully with some humility. When things are presented as facts- we all have the right to present an alternate view, within the rules of the forum.
:cloud9: :2c: I don't know what the contradiction seems to be..... :dontknow: I think you are all saying the same thing. Molly is presenting the natural literal, although she is aware of the spiritual. I don't think one negates the other; one just magnifies the other. Blessings...
Quote from: Cardinal on January 10, 2012, 03:32:40 PM
:cloud9: :2c: I don't know what the contradiction seems to be..... :dontknow: I think you are all saying the same thing. Molly is presenting the natural literal, although she is aware of the spiritual. I don't think one negates the other; one just magnifies the other. Blessings...
What about "He does away with the first to establish the second", and Hagar vs. Sarah. We all talk about patterns and such, why does the pattern fail here? Putting new wine into old wineskins.
:cloud9: What I'm saying is, the natural IS the pattern for the spiritual. The "stones" (scriptures) are split to allow the life of the Spirit to come out. The natural is as the bones, the spiritual is as the (celestial) flesh He puts upon those bones. One is the foundation, one is the building that "comes forth", as a son comes forth from the womb. It takes both to have the full counsel of God, which is why Jesus told John that both baptisms were necessary to fulfill all righteousness.
Things are not "done away with" as we think of the meaning of those words, but rather split or divided to bring forth more life, just like cell division, or just like a seed being opened. As in a seed, that which is "done away with" becomes part of the foundation (goes back into the earth) that feeds or "lifts" the new life (son) as a footstool lifts the feet. The waters (waters below the firmament) of judgment in Noah's day lifted (again as a footstool, ie. the outer court servant realm) up the new life (His judgments are unto victory) being brought forth. In the Hebrew, the words for foundation, helpmeet, wife, all have related thoughts behind them and all are as a "lesser glory" ie. servant realm.
When Jesus walked upon the waters below the firmament (letter/natural realm), it was as the Spirit (firmament) walking upon the Word to fulfill it. What is "adversarial" to our flesh as the law is, fulfilled in the Spirit, becomes the firm foundation to us. Which is why it says to agree with your adversary while you are in the way with him, because life comes out of death, as the son comes out of a "split" seed.
The law (body of flesh/old wineskin) could not/cannot contain the new wine, as in a SPLIT (death of the veil that was Jesus's flesh) had to occur, because it was a covering like a seed's covering. Unless a seed fall to the ground and die, it cannot bring forth much fruit. And, Hagar and her son also received blessings from the Lord. My :2c: Blessings...
I agree with what you're saying Card, except Hagar didn't bring forth the son of promise. And she was cast out.
:cloud9: Yes, I know, but it was another split, there is a two part bride, shown all the way thru scripture. Churchianity was blinded to the other half, just like the Jews were blinded to the other half. But they are one stick, split, as in a graft to the tree of life. This revelation proves UR, by the way. :bigGrin: My :2c:
so what happens to those who aren't from the bloodline then? how can they become heirs? Aborigines very likely don't have any Israeli DNA, yet I assume there are aborigine christians.
I'm not arguing that all Israel will not be saved. Just that to say that all christians have Israeli DNA doesn't make sense in regards to the last 3 or 4 pages of points.
The natural comes before the spiritual
Literal Israel before spiritual Israel
Hagar before Sarah
Esau before Jacob
Adam before Christ
The only bloodline that matters is being of the faith of Christ and partaking of His blood. Otherwise all that talk about Hagar and Sarah makes no sense (to me)
:cloud9: I don't think you're hearing me; I'm not the best at explaining what I "see". The split is Jews vs. Gentiles; both are His bride now, because both have an opportunity to birth the son of promise. The Messianic Jews are proof of this; there's over 10,000 in natural Israel alone, now.
The sons of God are being birthed out of this split, and once raised up in Him, they will be "wedded" to those who remain, to woo her with His love. This is witnessed by the scripture about the dead in Christ being raised first, then those that remain.
This "death" is as a splitting of the womb, just like a resurrection is a splitting of the grave to come forth. Those that lay down their lives, are then being raised up to "wed" and produce fruit/seed with those that remain. It's the principle of seedtime and harvest. My :2c:
Ishmael brought forth 12 nations also[wild donkey of a man] all nations blessed through promised seed. ass must be redeemed or his neck broke....
Isreal under bondage typifies Hagar/law/sin.
Quote from: Cardinal on January 10, 2012, 05:51:39 PM
:cloud9: I don't think you're hearing me; I'm not the best at explaining what I "see". The split is Jews vs. Gentiles; both are His bride now, because both have an opportunity to birth the son of promise. The Messianic Jews are proof of this; there's over 10,000 in natural Israel alone, now.
The sons of God are being birthed out of this split, and once raised up in Him, they will be "wedded" to those who remain, to woo her with His love. This is witnessed by the scripture about the dead in Christ being raised first, then those that remain.
This "death" is as a splitting of the womb, just like a resurrection is a splitting of the grave to come forth. Those that lay down their lives, are then being raised up to "wed" and produce fruit/seed with those that remain. It's the principle of seedtime and harvest. My :2c:
I agree with you, the split is Jews vs. Gentiles. Molly is saying its Jews vs. Israel, that the gentiles are Israel blood.
an aside.....the true Israel of God is the salvation of all mankind....all dead in the first Adam raised up in the last Adam[kinsman redeemer]
Satan incited David to number Israel at one time[limit the salvation of God due to the work of man's hands] a plague broke out[stopped at threshing floor]
we must be careful about limiting God's ability to save all mankind.......one seed of promise is all it takes....the sure mercy's promised to David
Quote from: sheila on January 10, 2012, 07:01:07 PM
an aside.....the true Israel of God is the salvation of all mankind....all dead in the first Adam raised up in the last Adam[kinsman redeemer]
Satan incited David to number Israel at one time[limit the salvation of God due to the work of man's hands] a plague broke out[stopped at threshing floor]
we must be careful about limiting God's ability to save all mankind.......one seed of promise is all it takes....the sure mercy's promised to David
:cloud9: Beautiful! :thumbsup:
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 10, 2012, 06:40:11 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on January 10, 2012, 05:51:39 PM
:cloud9: I don't think you're hearing me; I'm not the best at explaining what I "see". The split is Jews vs. Gentiles; both are His bride now, because both have an opportunity to birth the son of promise. The Messianic Jews are proof of this; there's over 10,000 in natural Israel alone, now.
The sons of God are being birthed out of this split, and once raised up in Him, they will be "wedded" to those who remain, to woo her with His love. This is witnessed by the scripture about the dead in Christ being raised first, then those that remain.
This "death" is as a splitting of the womb, just like a resurrection is a splitting of the grave to come forth. Those that lay down their lives, are then being raised up to "wed" and produce fruit/seed with those that remain. It's the principle of seedtime and harvest. My :2c:
I agree with you, the split is Jews vs. Gentiles. Molly is saying its Jews vs. Israel, that the gentiles are Israel blood.
:cloud9: And she's also right, IMO.....salvation is of the Jews. There's not 2 covenants; there is 1 fulfilled. The Jews "birthed" the Gentiles; natural flesh is as the mother, if your mother is Jewish, THEN YOU'RE JEWISH. This is why ALL are subject to the law and it's reach, because we are Israel. The fact we're DYING, proves the law is still in effect. And if not "Jewish", why then do we need to be circumcized (in heart)? The whole covenant we have, is an expansion or explanation of the Jewish one. There is no "new" (as in different) covenant, it's the old/flesh made new/Spirit.
The law (our Jewish mother) could not produce righteousness (righteous sons); it takes the heavenly mother to produce them. Christians quote the scripture about our mother not being literal Jerusalem, and citing we must be born from above into our heavenly mother, yet seem oblivious that it's saying, WE EITHER HAVE ONE MOTHER OR THE OTHER, there is no 3rd choice. Blessings....
:thumbsup: agree Rebecca....didn't post on it d/t my not finding the words to clarify on it. You know,so many,many times our seeming discord
in the spirit comes down to 'toMAtoes,toMAtoes,potatoes,potatoes"
:cloud9: Amen....and as we sharpen each other, we sharpen His image we "see". So it's ALL good. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Cardinal on January 10, 2012, 07:25:58 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 10, 2012, 06:40:11 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on January 10, 2012, 05:51:39 PM
:cloud9: I don't think you're hearing me; I'm not the best at explaining what I "see". The split is Jews vs. Gentiles; both are His bride now, because both have an opportunity to birth the son of promise. The Messianic Jews are proof of this; there's over 10,000 in natural Israel alone, now.
The sons of God are being birthed out of this split, and once raised up in Him, they will be "wedded" to those who remain, to woo her with His love. This is witnessed by the scripture about the dead in Christ being raised first, then those that remain.
This "death" is as a splitting of the womb, just like a resurrection is a splitting of the grave to come forth. Those that lay down their lives, are then being raised up to "wed" and produce fruit/seed with those that remain. It's the principle of seedtime and harvest. My :2c:
I agree with you, the split is Jews vs. Gentiles. Molly is saying its Jews vs. Israel, that the gentiles are Israel blood.
:cloud9: And she's also right, IMO.....salvation is of the Jews. There's not 2 covenants; there is 1 fulfilled. The Jews "birthed" the Gentiles; natural flesh is as the mother, if your mother is Jewish, THEN YOU'RE JEWISH. This is why ALL are subject to the law and it's reach, because we are Israel. The fact we're DYING, proves the law is still in effect. And if not "Jewish", why then do we need to be circumcized (in heart)? The whole covenant we have, is an expansion or explanation of the Jewish one. There is no "new" (as in different) covenant, it's the old/flesh made new/Spirit.
The law (our Jewish mother) could not produce righteousness (righteous sons); it takes the heavenly mother to produce them. Christians quote the scripture about our mother not being literal Jerusalem, and citing we must be born from above into our heavenly mother, yet seem oblivious that it's saying, WE EITHER HAVE ONE MOTHER OR THE OTHER, there is no 3rd choice. Blessings....
If you agreed with Sheila that true Israel is salvation of all, which I agree with, how can you say that then true Israel is also blood descendants in the natural of Israel. There are many thousands if not millions of people born before Abraham who are not of his natural bloodline.
This is my main issue with this line of reasoning that literal genetic descendants of Israel are the church. The Israel of God is all of humanity yes/no? We are all one body.
As in adam all die, we are all from the literal bloodline of adam
So also in Christ shall all be made alive, we are all in the spiritual bloodline of Christ
Here's the thing, unless you believe in the daVinci code :laughing7: Jesus has no literal bloodline
takes away the first to establish the second
takes away=anaeiro G337
[Mat 2:16 KJV] - Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth , and sent forth , and slew[337] all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
[Luk 22:2 KJV] - And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill[337] him; for they feared the people.
[Luk 23:32 KJV] - And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death[337] .
[Act 2:23 KJV] - Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken , and by wicked hands have crucified and slain[337] :
[Act 5:33 KJV] - When they heard [that], they were cut [to the heart], and took counsel to slay[337] them.
[Act 5:36 KJV] - For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves : who was slain[337] ; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered , and brought to nought.
[Act 7:21 KJV] - And when he was cast out , Pharaoh's daughter took[337] him up[337] , and nourished him for her own son.
[Act 7:28 KJV] - Wilt thou kill[337] me, as thou diddest[337] the Egyptian yesterday?
[Act 9:23 KJV] - And after that many days were fulfilled , the Jews took counsel to kill[337] him:
[Act 9:24 KJV] - But their laying await was known of Saul. And they watched the gates day and night to kill[337] him.
[Act 9:29 KJV] - And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay[337] him.
[Act 10:39 KJV] - And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew[337] and hanged on a tree:
[Act 12:2 KJV] - And he killed[337] James the brother of John with the sword.
[Act 13:28 KJV] - And though they found no cause of death [in him], yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain[337] .
[Act 16:27 KJV] - And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open , he drew out his sword, and would have killed[337] himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled .
[Act 22:20 KJV] - And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed , I also was standing by , and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew[337] him.
[Act 23:15 KJV] - Now therefore ye with the council signify to the chief captain that he bring him down unto you to morrow, as though ye would enquire something more perfectly concerning him: and we, or ever he come near , are ready to kill[337] him.
[Act 23:21 KJV] - But do not thou yield unto them: for there lie in wait for him of them more than forty men, which have bound themselves with an oath , that they will neither eat nor drink till they have killed[337] him: and now are they ready, looking for a promise from thee.
[Act 23:27 KJV] - This man was taken of the Jews, and should have been killed[337] of them: then came I with an army, and rescued him, having understood that he was a Roman.
[Act 25:3 KJV] - And desired favour against him, that he would send for him to Jerusalem, laying wait in the way to kill[337] him.
[Act 26:10 KJV] - Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death[337] , I gave my voice against [them].
[Hbr 10:9 KJV] - Then said he , Lo , I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away[337] the first, that he may establish the second.
The law was hanged on the cross, killed, buried, condemned in the flesh.
Jesus was made alive in the spirit
The law is the foundation, where are foundations? buried under the ground
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 10, 2012, 10:14:14 PM
takes away the first to establish the second
takes away=anaeiro G337
[Mat 2:16 KJV] - Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth , and sent forth , and slew[337] all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
[Luk 22:2 KJV] - And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill[337] him; for they feared the people.
[Luk 23:32 KJV] - And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death[337] .
[Act 2:23 KJV] - Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken , and by wicked hands have crucified and slain[337] :
[Act 5:33 KJV] - When they heard [that], they were cut [to the heart], and took counsel to slay[337] them.
[Act 5:36 KJV] - For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves : who was slain[337] ; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered , and brought to nought.
[Act 7:21 KJV] - And when he was cast out , Pharaoh's daughter took[337] him up[337] , and nourished him for her own son.
[Act 7:28 KJV] - Wilt thou kill[337] me, as thou diddest[337] the Egyptian yesterday?
[Act 9:23 KJV] - And after that many days were fulfilled , the Jews took counsel to kill[337] him:
[Act 9:24 KJV] - But their laying await was known of Saul. And they watched the gates day and night to kill[337] him.
[Act 9:29 KJV] - And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay[337] him.
[Act 10:39 KJV] - And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew[337] and hanged on a tree:
[Act 12:2 KJV] - And he killed[337] James the brother of John with the sword.
[Act 13:28 KJV] - And though they found no cause of death [in him], yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain[337] .
[Act 16:27 KJV] - And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open , he drew out his sword, and would have killed[337] himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled .
[Act 22:20 KJV] - And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed , I also was standing by , and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew[337] him.
[Act 23:15 KJV] - Now therefore ye with the council signify to the chief captain that he bring him down unto you to morrow, as though ye would enquire something more perfectly concerning him: and we, or ever he come near , are ready to kill[337] him.
[Act 23:21 KJV] - But do not thou yield unto them: for there lie in wait for him of them more than forty men, which have bound themselves with an oath , that they will neither eat nor drink till they have killed[337] him: and now are they ready, looking for a promise from thee.
[Act 23:27 KJV] - This man was taken of the Jews, and should have been killed[337] of them: then came I with an army, and rescued him, having understood that he was a Roman.
[Act 25:3 KJV] - And desired favour against him, that he would send for him to Jerusalem, laying wait in the way to kill[337] him.
[Act 26:10 KJV] - Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death[337] , I gave my voice against [them].
[Hbr 10:9 KJV] - Then said he , Lo , I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away[337] the first, that he may establish the second.
The law was hanged on the cross, killed, buried, condemned in the flesh.
Jesus was made alive in the spirit
The law is the foundation, where are foundations? buried under the ground
:cloud9: I think I said that, didn't I? :laughing7:
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 10, 2012, 09:53:29 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on January 10, 2012, 07:25:58 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 10, 2012, 06:40:11 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on January 10, 2012, 05:51:39 PM
:cloud9: I don't think you're hearing me; I'm not the best at explaining what I "see". The split is Jews vs. Gentiles; both are His bride now, because both have an opportunity to birth the son of promise. The Messianic Jews are proof of this; there's over 10,000 in natural Israel alone, now.
The sons of God are being birthed out of this split, and once raised up in Him, they will be "wedded" to those who remain, to woo her with His love. This is witnessed by the scripture about the dead in Christ being raised first, then those that remain.
This "death" is as a splitting of the womb, just like a resurrection is a splitting of the grave to come forth. Those that lay down their lives, are then being raised up to "wed" and produce fruit/seed with those that remain. It's the principle of seedtime and harvest. My :2c:
I agree with you, the split is Jews vs. Gentiles. Molly is saying its Jews vs. Israel, that the gentiles are Israel blood.
:cloud9: And she's also right, IMO.....salvation is of the Jews. There's not 2 covenants; there is 1 fulfilled. The Jews "birthed" the Gentiles; natural flesh is as the mother, if your mother is Jewish, THEN YOU'RE JEWISH. This is why ALL are subject to the law and it's reach, because we are Israel. The fact we're DYING, proves the law is still in effect. And if not "Jewish", why then do we need to be circumcized (in heart)? The whole covenant we have, is an expansion or explanation of the Jewish one. There is no "new" (as in different) covenant, it's the old/flesh made new/Spirit.
The law (our Jewish mother) could not produce righteousness (righteous sons); it takes the heavenly mother to produce them. Christians quote the scripture about our mother not being literal Jerusalem, and citing we must be born from above into our heavenly mother, yet seem oblivious that it's saying, WE EITHER HAVE ONE MOTHER OR THE OTHER, there is no 3rd choice. Blessings....
If you agreed with Sheila that true Israel is salvation of all, which I agree with, how can you say that then true Israel is also blood descendants in the natural of Israel. There are many thousands if not millions of people born before Abraham who are not of his natural bloodline.
This is my main issue with this line of reasoning that literal genetic descendants of Israel are the church. The Israel of God is all of humanity yes/no? We are all one body.
As in adam all die, we are all from the literal bloodline of adam
So also in Christ shall all be made alive, we are all in the spiritual bloodline of Christ
Here's the thing, unless you believe in the daVinci code :laughing7: Jesus has no literal bloodline
:cloud9: Perception. The outer court (Israel) included EVERYONE, yet was part of HIS tabernacle, HIS dwelling place, a BODY, specifically the portion of the body that is the feet. You can't split something off from the whole, unless the parts were whole to begin with. Unless you wash my FEET (feet get dusty, the rebellious live in a dry land), you cannot be My disciple.
Outer court (Israel), Inner court (Judah; replaces Levi in spiritual covenant because their hearts were hardened), Holy of Holies (our Melchisedek priesthood/New Jerusalem/ Mt. Zion).
They are not all Jews that say they are Jews, because of HEART change. But many that don't know they are "Jews" don't say it, either, for the same reason, only in reverse. But ALL are obligated to be "circumcized". My :2c:
Quote from: Cardinal on January 10, 2012, 10:25:06 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 10, 2012, 10:14:14 PM
takes away the first to establish the second
takes away=anaeiro G337
[Mat 2:16 KJV] - Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth , and sent forth , and slew[337] all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
[Luk 22:2 KJV] - And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill[337] him; for they feared the people.
[Luk 23:32 KJV] - And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death[337] .
[Act 2:23 KJV] - Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken , and by wicked hands have crucified and slain[337] :
[Act 5:33 KJV] - When they heard [that], they were cut [to the heart], and took counsel to slay[337] them.
[Act 5:36 KJV] - For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves : who was slain[337] ; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered , and brought to nought.
[Act 7:21 KJV] - And when he was cast out , Pharaoh's daughter took[337] him up[337] , and nourished him for her own son.
[Act 7:28 KJV] - Wilt thou kill[337] me, as thou diddest[337] the Egyptian yesterday?
[Act 9:23 KJV] - And after that many days were fulfilled , the Jews took counsel to kill[337] him:
[Act 9:24 KJV] - But their laying await was known of Saul. And they watched the gates day and night to kill[337] him.
[Act 9:29 KJV] - And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay[337] him.
[Act 10:39 KJV] - And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew[337] and hanged on a tree:
[Act 12:2 KJV] - And he killed[337] James the brother of John with the sword.
[Act 13:28 KJV] - And though they found no cause of death [in him], yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain[337] .
[Act 16:27 KJV] - And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open , he drew out his sword, and would have killed[337] himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled .
[Act 22:20 KJV] - And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed , I also was standing by , and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew[337] him.
[Act 23:15 KJV] - Now therefore ye with the council signify to the chief captain that he bring him down unto you to morrow, as though ye would enquire something more perfectly concerning him: and we, or ever he come near , are ready to kill[337] him.
[Act 23:21 KJV] - But do not thou yield unto them: for there lie in wait for him of them more than forty men, which have bound themselves with an oath , that they will neither eat nor drink till they have killed[337] him: and now are they ready, looking for a promise from thee.
[Act 23:27 KJV] - This man was taken of the Jews, and should have been killed[337] of them: then came I with an army, and rescued him, having understood that he was a Roman.
[Act 25:3 KJV] - And desired favour against him, that he would send for him to Jerusalem, laying wait in the way to kill[337] him.
[Act 26:10 KJV] - Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death[337] , I gave my voice against [them].
[Hbr 10:9 KJV] - Then said he , Lo , I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away[337] the first, that he may establish the second.
The law was hanged on the cross, killed, buried, condemned in the flesh.
Jesus was made alive in the spirit
The law is the foundation, where are foundations? buried under the ground
:cloud9: I think I said that, didn't I? :laughing7:
I'm not sure if you did but its been playing over and over in my spirit the last week or so. Sometimes I feel like a broken record is going inside me.
Quote from: sheila on January 10, 2012, 07:43:39 PM
:thumbsup: agree Rebecca....didn't post on it d/t my not finding the words to clarify on it. You know,so many,many times our seeming discord
in the spirit comes down to 'toMAtoes,toMAtoes,potatoes,potatoes"
AMEN!
Death where is thy sting?...
Death is "swallowed up" in immortality.
What Israel was has been is being "swallowed up" by what the Bride is becoming. That which "swallows" includes that which it swallows even as that which it swallows gave birth to it.
Like so many other seeds, this seed grows into something that becomes the fulfillment of the promise within the fruit from which it fell.
Abraham sowed the seed of Christ through Isaac, Jacob/Israel(patriarchs...seed sowers).... Moses(lawgiver...foundations)..... David, Solomon(kingdom....glory)........the Prophets(Logos....rhema.....fire). The natural and the supernatural united all the way along the process by the natural seed(root of Jesse)- there was never any deviation.
When Christ was exalted to the right hand the promise that was proclaimed through Joel was fulfilled, swallowing the former promises and extending them to the Gentiles who would believe, and ultimately, to every being in the whole kosmos.
It will come to pass in that day that I will pour out my spirit on all flesh..... (Joel)
This Is That which was promised by the prophet Joel......(Peter at Pentecost)
It is the Spirit in us whereby our adoption is sealed and confirmed and delivered(manifested)-it is intrinsicly related to "the subjection of every adversary" and the Spirit proclaims it through Peter.
Acts 2:32-38 Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:
'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,
"SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
35 UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET."'
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified."
The exaltation of Christ to the right hand initiated a new priesthood based on a better promise- a covenant based in an EXCHANGE OF LIFE, the Spirit in us, Christ in you the hope of glory.
"... in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."(Gal 3)
The part I am going to share here might be controversial, so take with a grain of salt, but we can receive the "promise" of sonship through the Spirit.... we can receive the "authority to become sons of God" - but refuse the "manifestation" of it.
1 Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, 2 but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. 3 So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law,
Believers who are under the law are like slaves, even tho they have the "inheritance" of sons within them in the seed- they do not "walk in the Spirit" and they are not "led by the Spirit". So they are like little children. They must be "managed" and "kept under tutelage". The reason for this is that they have not come under the "perfect law of liberty". The whole point of everything is that the creation is being set free into "the glorious liberty of the sons of God". This is the love of Jesus for the Father, igniting and overcoming in us-transforming us. This is the glorious gospel.
And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say?
"CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.
Therefore, all we who are free from law/letter- the word held in the flesh of man by children/babes.....will be persecuted by those who are still under it, because they fear the freedom, "For freedom Christ has set you free". The law is the only handle the flesh can put on believers- to get them to support organizations and the agendas and ambitons of men who cannot(or will not) see the ultimate plan of God.
Thus, they cannot be priests, because in order to be a priest you must forsake earthly reward/inheritance. Only those who have forsaken the world and been "swallowed up" by the glory of God can "inherit all things" and "sit with me on my throne".
So, lastly, the Spirit falls and consumes the acceptable offering. The fire burns but the bush is not consumed. "Here I am, I and the children you have given me. We are set as signs and wonders in Israel."
5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne(rapture dream).
The purpose of the Bride is to generate sons. She gestates the SEED which is Christ, and sons grow in her who can be "Seated in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus above all principality and powers. They are "walking in" the glorious liberty of utter devotion to the Father and no law can hold them captive in immaturity. The letter of Paul to the Ephesians is a blueprint of this whole "purporse".
Eph 1, the plan(ultimate universal reconciliation), the spirit of revelation and the body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all
Eph 2 The Jews and the gentiles a "tabernacle of God in the Spirit" fitly joined together in Messiah, the "chief cornerstone
Eph 3 The mystery and the means of its fulfillment in the church..".that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. THIS IS THE HEART OF IT ALL
Eph 4 An introduction into priesthood, serving one another in the "One Spirt and the One Body under One Lord and growing as we speak the truth in love, through "the effectual working of each individual part"..........................
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ(sons born). 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children....tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine and the deceitful scheming of men(dragon's tail and flood of water)
we have a long way to go :o)
Eph 5 Staying in the fire and the mystery of the Bride(a woman clothed with the sun)
Eph 6 Warriors/priests/sons fully equipped to destroy the works of the dragon and preserve the cycle, faithful husbandmen, gently raising children, to increase the reconciliation/restoration of all things, as Lamps shing in a dark place.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 11, 2012, 02:06:39 AM
Death where is thy sting?...
Death is "swallowed up" in immortality.
What Israel was has been is being "swallowed up" by what the Bride is becoming. That which "swallows" includes that which it swallows even as that which it swallows gave birth to it.
Like so many other seeds, this seed grows into something that becomes the fulfillment of the promise within the fruit from which it fell.
Abraham sowed the seed of Christ through Isaac, Jacob/Israel(patriarchs...seed sowers).... Moses(lawgiver...foundations)..... David, Solomon(kingdom....glory)........the Prophets(Logos....rhema.....fire). The natural and the supernatural united all the way along the process by the natural seed(root of Jesse)- there was never any deviation.
When Christ was exalted to the right hand the promise that was proclaimed through Joel was fulfilled, swallowing the former promises and extending them to the Gentiles who would believe, and ultimately, to every being in the whole kosmos.
It will come to pass in that day that I will pour out my spirit on all flesh..... (Joel)
This Is That which was promised by the prophet Joel......(Peter at Pentecost)
It is the Spirit in us whereby our adoption is sealed and confirmed and delivered(manifested)-it is intrinsicly related to "the subjection of every adversary" and the Spirit proclaims it through Peter.
Acts 2:32-38 Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:
'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,
"SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
35 UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET."'
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified."
The exaltation of Christ to the right hand initiated a new priesthood based on a better promise- a covenant based in an EXCHANGE OF LIFE, the Spirit in us, Christ in you the hope of glory.
"... in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."(Gal 3)
The part I am going to share here might be controversial, so take with a grain of salt, but we can receive the "promise" of sonship through the Spirit.... we can receive the "authority to become sons of God" - but refuse the "manifestation" of it.
1 Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, 2 but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. 3 So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law,
Believers who are under the law are like slaves, even tho they have the "inheritance" of sons within them in the seed- they do not "walk in the Spirit" and they are not "led by the Spirit". So they are like little children. They must be "managed" and "kept under tutelage". The reason for this is that they have not come under the "perfect law of liberty". The whole point of everything is that the creation is being set free into "the glorious liberty of the sons of God". This is the love of Jesus for the Father, igniting and overcoming in us-transforming us. This is the glorious gospel.
And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say?
"CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.
Therefore, all we who are free from law/letter- the word held in the flesh of man by children/babes.....will be persecuted by those who are still under it, because they fear the freedom, "For freedom Christ has set you free". The law is the only handle the flesh can put on believers- to get them to support organizations and the agendas and ambitons of men who cannot(or will not) see the ultimate plan of God.
Thus, they cannot be priests, because in order to be a priest you must forsake earthly reward/inheritance. Only those who have forsaken the world and been "swallowed up" by the glory of God can "inherit all things" and "sit with me on my throne".
So, lastly, the Spirit falls and consumes the acceptable offering. The fire burns but the bush is not consumed. "Here I am, I and the children you have given me. We are set as signs and wonders in Israel."
5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne(rapture dream).
The purpose of the Bride is to generate sons. She gestates the SEED which is Christ, and sons grow in her who can be "Seated in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus above all principality and powers. They are "walking in" the glorious liberty of utter devotion to the Father and no law can hold them captive in immaturity. The letter of Paul to the Ephesians is a blueprint of this whole "purporse".
Eph 1, the plan(ultimate universal reconciliation), the spirit of revelation and the body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all
Eph 2 The Jews and the gentiles a "tabernacle of God in the Spirit" fitly joined together in Messiah, the "chief cornerstone
Eph 3 The mystery and the means of its fulfillment in the church..".that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. THIS IS THE HEART OF IT ALL
Eph 4 An introduction into priesthood, serving one another in the "One Spirt and the One Body under One Lord and growing as we speak the truth in love, through "the effectual working of each individual part"..........................
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ(sons born). 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children....tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine and the deceitful scheming of men(dragon's tail and flood of water)
we have a long way to go :o)
Eph 5 Staying in the fire and the mystery of the Bride(a woman clothed with the sun)
Eph 6 Warriors/priests/sons fully equipped to destroy the works of the dragon and preserve the cycle, faithful husbandmen, gently raising children, to increase the reconciliation/restoration of all things, as Lamps shing in a dark place.
:thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
Brother,what a Blessing! :HeartThrob:
:cloud9: AMEN! :HeartThrob: :thumbsup:
Careful!
I said that in post 566 and in 568 Doug called me a false prophet!
Doug makes a good point.
In the NT, they are not to stay in the holy land and prosper it, but to move out to the ends of the earth to preach the gospel.
Not to mention that Jesus predicts the destruction of Jerusalem, which then occurs in 70ad.
Is that Scripture?
?
Then He said to them, "Go the whole world over, and proclaim the Good News to all mankind.
--Mark 16:15
!
Amen.
God spoke that long, long ago.
I just didn't see it as Doug's good point.
What I love about Isaiah 6, is how it reveals the way into mark 16:15. If we are to go and proclaim, we must first "Behold and be broken"
"Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty;
the whole earth is full of his glory."
A true revelation of God show His holiness as love and the whole earth full of His glory (For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things to whom be the glory forever amen!)
4 At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke.
This revelation "shakes everything that can be shaken" (man's strength) "until only that which cannot be shaken remains"(God's grace)
5 "Woe to me!" I cried. "I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty."
An acceptable sacrifice, judging no one, because the soul is completely judged(clear through humbled), and completely forgiven, and prepared to love fully.
Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, "See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for."
The prophetic word(you are all clean because of the word I have spoken to you......born anew by an incorruptible seed unto a fervent love of the brethren) reveals our deliverance as complete forgiveness of complete iniquity and the word of reconciliation arises in us empowered by the Spirit who comes to burn within the acceptable sacrifice.
Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?"
And I said, "Here am I. Send me!"
Ha! The perfect law of liberty. The glorious liberty of the sons of God! "Here I am, a living sacrifice, a living epistle of love and grace, a living stone in the house of the Spirit- sned me to invite them into the Glory that is Your Love- the fountain of living waters!
9 He said, "Go and tell this people:
"'Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'
10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed."
Only when they see our love, and the Spirit burning upon us, can the cataracts be removed from their eyes-
Today If you HEAR HIS VOICE! Harden not your hearts! LOVE ONE ANOTHER, and so inherit the promised land- and so enter My Rest.
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 12, 2012, 01:01:15 AM
Today If you HEAR HIS VOICE! Harden not your hearts! LOVE ONE ANOTHER, and so inherit the promised land- and so enter My Rest.
Is this what the promised land is? Lets' see if the idea can be supported in Scripture.
Jesus said, "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." [John 13:34-35]
Paul said, "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." [Romans 13:8-10]
The apostle John said, "And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us." [1 John 3:22-24]
Someone said that the law was buried in the ground, but actually, it was
written upon the land of promise. [Joshua 8:30-32] The blessings and cursings were read, while half the people stood by mount Gerizim, and half stood by mount Ebal. Possessing the land was connected with keeping the law. And when the people did not keep the law, they were removed from the land of promise, and went into captivity in other lands. And as Paul explained, "love is the fulfilling of the law."
Hebrews 3:7:19 identifies the promised land with something that we need to believe. The Israelites in the wilderness, having heard an evil report from ten of the twelve spies who surveyed the land for 40 days, did not trust God; they viewed themselves as
grasshoppers or locusts in comparison to the people dwelling in the land. And so they remained in the wilderness for the rest of their lives, except for Joshua, and Caleb, who both received an inheritance in the land, because they gave a good report. When the time came for Caleb to receive his inheritance in the land, he was given the area near Hebron, which he referred to as a
mountain. Caleb said, "Now therefore give me this mountain, whereof the LORD spake in that day; for thou heardest in that day how the Anakims were there, and that the cities were great and fenced: if so be the LORD will be with me, then I shall be able to drive them out, as the LORD said." [Joshua 14:12]
Mountains represent promises of God, which are both high, and durable. Jacob said, when he blessed Joseph, "The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren." [Genesis 49:26]
The promises and blessing given to Jacob were high, and lofty, because they were spiritual in nature, and also eternal, and so he compared them to the "everlasting hills." The land of promise was clearly a type and a shadow of things to come. They are revealed in the New Testament. Believing those things is represented by possessing the land of promise, and entering into God's rest. The mountains to flee to are not literal, earthly ones, but the spiritual things that those mountains represent.
Doug
..if thou hath faith the size of a mustard seed...........a mountain[of cursing] thrown into the se a.Note the new earth[restoration] no more death,no more curse
if you are 'changed' and all things are new....you realize Father has designed this exercize in good and evil for the eternal benefit and educating of His children.
that there is no longer any curse,nor death in the spirit. That Father,who lowered us into this realm,humbled us in the corrupt image of the corruptible,shall
indeed lift us all into the image of the incorruptible. Indeed,there may be a messenger of satan,appointed to torment us in the flesh..that we not become
conceited due to this revelation...that we are the sons of God sown in corruption[amongst thorns]
first cleanse3 the inside of the cup[spirit/holy of holies, Now the dwelling of God is with men,and He will live with them] then the outside shall also be clean
if we love one another,God lives in us and his love is made complete[whole] in us. love is the perfect bond of union...love is the perfecting of the saints
dwelling in love is the promised land...the fruitful land,the garden of God,the eternal heaven...the fruitful bough/vine of Joseph that climbs the wall of seperation
that overcomes all things,that is strong as death,that is unyeilding as the grave
you guys are makin' my heart sing this morning :HeartThrob:
Give Me This Mountain
Joshua 14:6-12
by Lee Henry
Introduction:
Israel has entered the promised land of Canaan and conquered it. Joshua chapter 13-14 lays out how the land was divided among the tribes. In Joshua 14:6 then we see Caleb coming before Joshua with a request. His request recorded in vs. 12 is simple, "give me this mountain." Actually, most modern translations translate it "give me this hill country" because Joshua was not referring to just one mountain but the mountainous country around Hebron. But, "give me this mountain!" sounds better.
Now by what right did Caleb stand before the leader of God's people and demand, "give me this mountain"? Now before we answer that question, let's go back about 45 years and see what was going on. In the book of Exodus we read about the dramatic events that led up to God's deliverance of the nation of Israel out of Egyptian bondage. Then they went into the wilderness where they encountered God on Mount Sinai. They received the commandments of God and built the tabernacle according to God's specifications.
Numbers chapter 10 and following recount the departure of the nation of Israel from Sinai and the events that followed. Now they stand at the border of the promised land. The land which God promised to Abraham and his descendants. But before they enter the land, God instructed them to send 12 men ahead to spy out the land (Numbers 13). They were to select one man from each tribe to go into the land.
Now, if you were going to send one man from your entire tribe to go spy out the land, who would you pick? You would pick the best man you had. I have no doubt that the 12 men that were picked were the strongest, bravest and most reliable men in their tribes. They were the best of the best. The tribe of Ephraim selected Joshua (Hoshea) the son of Nun and the tribe of Judah selected Caleb, the son of Jephunneh. The entire list is in Numbers 13:4-15.
Then in Vss. 17-20 Moses gives them their instructions. So they spied out the land for 40 days and returned to give their report (vss. 27-33). They brought back items from the land that showed it to be incredibly abundant in food and resources. Ten of the spies said, it "flows with milk and honey," BUT . . . there are GIANTS in the land. "We seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them." The ten spies said, it is a wonderful land but we cannot conquer it. The people were in an uproar.
Vs. 30 says, "But Caleb quieted the people before Moses and said, 'Let us go up at once and occupy it, for we are well able to overcome it.'" In spite of Caleb's pleas, the people rebelled against Moses and Aaron and decided to return to Egypt. Joshua and Caleb continued to plead with the people in Num. 14:6-9, not to rebel but instead, trust in God who has promised to give the land to them. The people then turned on Joshua and Caleb and tried to stone them. But then God intervenes. Vs. 10 says, "the glory of the Lord appeared at the tent of meeting to all the people of Israel. God threatens to destroy the entire nation of Israel and start all over with Moses. Only Moses' pleas persuaded God to spare the people.
God then declared that the people would wander in the wilderness for 40 years until everyone in the nation of Israel over the age of 20 had died. But then he makes a startling statement
in vs. 24. "But my servant Caleb because he has a different spirit and has followed me fully, I will bring him into the land into which he went and his descendants shall possess it" Of all the people of the nation of Israel, only Joshua and Caleb were spared.
Now back to Joshua 14. This is why Caleb was able to make such a bold request. God had promised that "mountain" to him 45 years earlier in the wilderness and he was ready to take it. Joshua granted Caleb's request and according to Judges 1:20, Caleb and his people drove
out the Anakim and conquered Hebron and the surrounding hill country that had been promised to him by God so many years earlier.
What contributed to Caleb's success?
I. He possessed a "different spirit." (Num. 14:24) Different from what? How?
As you recall, when the 12 spies came back from Canaan, 10 of them said, it's a great land but we can't take it. At the same time, two of them, Joshua and Caleb said, "Yes we can." God has promised it to us and God never backs out on his promises. One of the reasons Caleb was so confident that the land could be conquered was that he had a "different spirit." What does that mean? The 12 spies had a spirit of fear and trembling. All they saw in the land was GIANTS. All Caleb saw was the beautiful land and the opportunities it represented. Caleb's different spirit was a spirit of courage based on faith.
It is the same spirit which David had in I Sam 17 when he faced Goliath. For days, Goliath had challenged anyone from the Army of Israel to fight all 9 feet of him. Everyone looked at this GIANT and then looked at themselves and like the 10 spies they were "grasshoppers in our own sight." The ten spies were afraid because they compared themselves to the GIANTS and KNEW they could not defeat them. AND THEY WERE RIGHT!
Caleb and David saw the giants and compared them to God and KNEW that with God's help they could defeat them. Caleb's confidence of victory did not come from "the power of positive thinking" or from some glorified and exaggerated sense of self worth, but from his Faith in God.
Paul may have been thinking of Caleb and David when he told Timothy in II Tim. 1:7 that "God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self control."
2. Caleb followed God fully (Num. 14:24; Deut 1:36))
In this passage and in the parallel passage in Deut. 1:36 God uses this phrase to declare Caleb's complete faithfulness to Him. Josh. 14:9 indicates that God's declaration may have been delivered through Moses. Caleb uses the same phrase in Josh. 14:8 to declare his faithfulness and cite that as a reason why he should be given Hebron and the surrounding hill country. Caleb's dedication to God was complete, unwavering and unending. Jesus declared in Matt. 17:20 that if we have faith the size of a mustard seed, we can move mountains. Caleb's faith did not help him move a mountain but it surely helped him capture one.
3. Caleb was confident of his own strength. (Josh. 14:10-11)
Caleb declares that he is as strong and ready for battle now as he was when he stood with the nation of Israel on the threshold of the promised land 45 years earlier. In his statement, Caleb indicates that his strength did not come from within himself but from the fact that "The Lord has kept me alive . . ." Caleb knew that his strength
and vitality was a gift from God and he gave God all the credit. But Caleb also knew that God would not just hand Hebron to him on a silver platter. Caleb knew that he would have use his God given strength and go out and fight for his inheritance. As some said, Caleb's faith wore work clothes.
4. Caleb was patiently persistent.God made a promise to Caleb that would not be fulfilled for 45 years! All during that time, Caleb never gave up his hope and never gave in to despair. God had promised it. Caleb believed it. That settled it. Caleb did not know when God's promise would be fulfilled but he knew it would some day. For 45 long years filled with hardship and death, Caleb kept himself ready so that whenever God was ready to give the land to him, Caleb would be ready to take it.
Through God's help Caleb was able to conquer the inheritance which God had promised him and take it for his own.
http://www.sermoncentral.com/sermons/give-me-this-mountain-lee-henry-sermon-on-ot-leaders-93459.asp
spiritual giants have been overcome...with their doctrines of fallen angels...hell,eternal burning,condemnation and death and wrath of God..sin is not counted against man
the man of sin was always doomed to destruction[giants] that the sons of God inherit liberty and the eternal promises
the spirit of Christ,that dwelleth in those that beleive has overcome the world[giants/prince of this world]
The giants are overcome and conquered by Caleb, tribe of Judah, son of Jephunneh, and Joshua, tribe of Ephraim, son of Nun.
Here's something kind of strange and interesting. In numbers 13, Joshua is called Oshea, tribe of Ephraim.
"Oshea"
H1954
הושׁע
hôshêa‛
ho-shay'-ah
From H3467; deliverer; Hoshea, the name of five Israelites: - Hosea, Hoshea, Oshea.
Matthew 21:9
And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.
"Hosanna"
G5614
ὡσαννά
hōsanna
ho-san-nah'
Of Hebrew origin [H3467] and [H4994]; oh save!; hosanna (that is, hoshia-na), an exclamation of adoration: - hosanna.
and He said 'Have no fear,little flock,for I have overcome the world"
The story of Caleb has a sequel in the account of his daughter Achsah in Joshua 15:16-19 and in Judges 1:12-15.
Jill Hammer outlined the symbolism in the story. She wrote:
In Judges 1, Achsah marries after a fairy-tale-like episode in which her father promises her to the man who conquers the city of Kiriat-Sefer (City of the Book!). Achsah demands as her dowry a land with "springs of water." ... The story of Achsah and Otniel, which is told very briefly in Joshua and Judges, is clearly of the genre of fairy tale. The father promises his daughter to the man who conquers a certain city, just as legendary kings promise their daughters to the slayers of dragons, healers of diseases, solvers of riddles. Yet after the young hero receives his bride, she herself demands a gift of her father. The object of the story, the passive "princess," turns out to be an active player after all. The gift she asks for is water: the most obvious symbol of life in a desert environment. Where her father has concerned himself with war, Achsah concerns herself with the continuation of life and civilization.
The Rabbis felt the mythic undertones of this passage. The Talmud claims that Caleb's gift of "upper" and "lower" springs is a metaphor. It means that Caleb gave Achsah Torah learning as well as physical sustenance. The Talmud also ascribes spiritual gifts to Otniel: Otniel restores many of the teachings of Moses that the Israelites have forgotten (BT Terumah 16a). Otniel and Achsah are true conquerors of the City of the Book.
[Jill Hammer. Sisters at Sinai: new tales of biblical women. Jewish Publication Society, 2004. p. 276.]
Land is associated with the Book, and the revelations of God, but the land needs to be watered, to be fertile. This water comes from both wells, and rain from heaven; likewise the truth is found in the deep things in the Scriptures, and by the Spirit from God.
In Jeremiah 2:11-13, God is called "the fountain of living waters." The people of Israel had forsaken God, and hewed out cisterns instead, that could not hold any water.
Joel said a fountain will come from the house of the Lord, and it will water the valley of Shittim. It is where the Israelites camped before entering the promised land. And where they committed whoredom with the Moabite women. This sin has a spiritual meaning in the New Testament; it is connected with following false teachers in 2 Cor. 11:2-3. The fountain from the house of the Lord is spiritual and metaphorical; the same verse says mountains will drop down new wine, and hills will flow with milk. [Joel 3:18]
Zechariah wrote of a fountain that cleanses from sin. [Zechariah 13:1]
Living water flows from Jerusalem, in Zechariah 14:8. This is a metaphor of the gospel going forth from the church, the heavenly Jerusalem.
Jesus said he is the source of the living water, which represents the Spirit.
John 7:37-39
On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink.
Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them."
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified
Doug
the multitudes that went before[before Christ come to earth] and those that come after[He come in flesh]
Songs who is this that appears like the dawn,fair as the moon,majestic as the stars in procession.
the little children[LITTLE FLOCK] were partakers of flesh,and so too, He come in like manner
we must realize the all encompassing scope of the work of Our Father's hands through His son. The Lamb slaIN BEFORE THE FOUNDING OF THE WORLD
SOWN IN WEAKNESS,HE DELIVERS US FROM THOSE STRONGER THAN US
iSREAL[ALL MANKIND RAISED UP IN cHRIST] IS MY FIRSTBORN SON[MAJESTIC AS THE STARS IN PROCESSION/ABRAHAM'S SEED AS NUMEROUS AS STARS]
Hoshea-na!
I pray for God's salvation
The two tribes Judah and Ephraim are bound together in this story of overcoming.
But why is the Christ figure [Joshua] associated with the tribe of Ephraim, when we know Christ himself is tribe of Judah?
:cloud9: Amen and amen.....new heaven (mind of Christ); new earth (glorified body/promised "land). And it comes in that order, too. The new heavens are created with fire, the fire of the Holy Ghost given on the day of Pentecost. The HG then goes about creating a body (glorified) that He can lay His Head on.
What temple shall ye make Me? Answer: NONE. The HG does the works, creating a city (multiple habitations of Him) made without hands. My :2c: Blessings....
mOLLEY
i THINK IT HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE DOUBLE PORTION OF jOSEPH...HIS TWO SONS COUNTED AS iSRAEL. AND TWO BORN OF RACHAEL
OF WHICH BENJAMIN RECEIVED 5 TIMES PORTION OF FOOD. JOSEPH FIRSTBORN OF THE LOVED WIFE,BENJAMIN LASTBORN OF THE LOVED WIFE
Quote from: Molly on January 12, 2012, 03:11:19 PM
God then declared that the people would wander in the wilderness for 40 years until everyone in the nation of Israel over the age of 20 had died. But then he makes a startling statement
in vs. 24. "But my servant Caleb because he has a different spirit and has followed me fully, I will bring him into the land into which he went and his descendants shall possess it" Of all the people of the nation of Israel, only Joshua and Caleb were spared.
Now back to Joshua 14. This is why Caleb was able to make such a bold request. God had promised that "mountain" to him 45 years earlier in the wilderness and he was ready to take it. Joshua granted Caleb's request and according to Judges 1:20, Caleb and his people drove
out the Anakim and conquered Hebron and the surrounding hill country that had been promised to him by God so many years earlier.
What contributed to Caleb's success?
I. He possessed a "different spirit." (Num. 14:24) Different from what? How?
Rom 12:1-3 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. (2) And
do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. (3) For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
Tit 3:5-7 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but
according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (6) Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (7) That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Eph 3:14-21 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, (15) from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, (16) that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory,
to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, (17) so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, (18) may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, (19) and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. (20) Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, (21) to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.
Those who believe that this is their inheritance in Christ, "confomed to the image of the son of God"....."filled up to all the fulness of God"....."unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the son of God"..... They are demanding that mountain..... "command ye me the works of my hands"..... "for you have come unto Zion, and unto the heavenly Jerusalem"....
Hebron means "place of association". It was the place where Israel first gathered to David and he was crowned king there and ruled 7 years. It was the beginning of "kingdom". Moses and judges were "Foundations". The law is a "tutor" to lead us to Christ. Christ is David...."Kingdom". The kingdom begins when "oneness/koinonea" ascends as a cloud of love among the brethren. Then the Lord conquers, as we walk in the spirit, abiding in peace.
"Above all things preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace"
The beginning of "kingdom" is "communion". When we gather as one under our Head, our King, our David, "that you may be one even as I and the Father are one, I in the Father and the Father in me"... This is the mountain of the Lord, "In the last days they will say come let us go to the mountain of the Lord to learn His ways"....
Jerusalem, "double peace", peace in the inner man and the outer man(no double mind- love rules)- "The place of the dwelling of the soles of my feet"......"Sit thou at my right hand while I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"..."How beautiful upon the mountain tops are the feet of them who bring good news of glad tidings".....
Luk 2:10-14 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you
good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. (11) For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. (12) And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. (13) And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, (14)
Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.Moving from Babylon to Jerusalem is moving from strife to union/communion, ascending the holy hill of the Lord, "I dwell in the high and holy place and with the one who is of a broken and a contrite heart".
Here is the pathway from Babylon("confusion by mixture") to Jerusalem.
Jas 3:12-18 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. (13) Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. (14) But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. (15) This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. (16) For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. (17) But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. (18) And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace(sons).
The giants are in us. They "possess the land". We cannot enter because we are afraid to trust God and do not know that our deliverance is steadfast and our inheritance well secured. We are so busy trying to "conquer" and demonstrate that we know something and are "somebody" that we do not see the glory of God departing as we bicker and test one another. Babes, little children- good thing the blood is sufficient for our indiscretions before Him and towards one another in His presence.
Rapture is described in Acts 2
These men are not drunk as ye suppose, for it is but the third hour of the day. This is that which was prophesied by the prophet Joel.........
The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who is given to us(Romans 5:5)
I give you a new commandment.......love one another.
....and I saw a new heaven and a new earth.........Amen
Quote from: eaglesway on January 13, 2012, 02:54:34 AM
The giants are in us. They "possess the land". We cannot enter because we are afraid to trust God and do not know that our deliverance is steadfast and our inheritance well secured. We are so busy trying to "conquer" and demonstrate that we know something and are "somebody" that we do not see the glory of God departing as we bicker and test one another. Babes, little children- good thing the blood is sufficient for our indiscretions before Him and towards one another in His presence.
In the account of the Israelites in the wilderness, ten of the twelve spies who surveyed the land for 40 days brought back an evil report, which prevailed over the report of Joshua and Caleb, who encouraged the people to trust God. The ten Israelite spies discounted the power of God to overcome the enemies. They were unwilling to trust something they could not see. They saw themselves as grasshoppers, in comparison to the people who occupied the land.
When we consider the 40 days that the spies surveyed the land, what kind of survey would that have been? It can only be called a rather superficial one. It did not span any more than one season, probably fall, as they brought back some fruit; but it was just a fleeting glimpse, and it would hardly be possible for the twelve spies to travel to all parts of the country. Their 40 day tour corresponds to the superficial view that many have towards the Bible.
The Israelites spent 40 years in the wilderness, the better part of a lifetime, in consequence of their belief in a report based on a survey that took 40 days.
Paul said all the things that happened to the Israelites in the wilderness occurred for our examples.
1 Corinthians 10:11-12
Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
The wilderness Revelation 12:6, and 14 where the woman has a place prepared by God, and where she is fed, seems to represent the church in a state of not yet dwelling in the land of promise, but as
en route to the land, the promised inheritance.
In the history of the church, many individuals have commented upon and tried to interpret the prophecies of the Scriptures. They were often men who had a partial understanding of the scriptures.
Like the giants dwelling in Canaan, who possessed small parts of the land, many of them understood some parts of the Gospel, and the Scriptures, but erred in others. Marcion is an example; he excluded all but the teachings of Paul.
We can think of other church fathers, and men like Augustine, Jerome, Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin, Martin Luther, and other Reformers, critical scholars, famous preachers and evangelists, founders of denominations and sects, authors of commentaries, etc. Each of them influenced others who came after, some to a greater, and some to a lesser extent. They were men of normal stature, but they are "giants" in a spiritual sense, by their influence, or their gifts, insights, or by the magnitude of their errors. Lactantius, who promoted Millennialism, also denied the existence of the antipodes, where men walked "with their feet higher than their heads."
They were spiritual "giants" in respect to their theories, and interpretations, that influence our thinking about the Bible, sometimes in ways that hinder us from understanding it properly, and believing its message. The "isms" that relate to prophecy include futurism, preterism, idealism, premillennialism, postmillennialism, amillennialism, dispensationalism, Zionism, etc. Prophetic revelations are generally only partly understood.
Entering the "rest" that the saints are promised requires labour. [Hebrews 4:9] According to the promise of Jesus, God will lead the saints into the truth, just as the Israelites of old had the promise of the land. Jesus promised his disciples: "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." The promise of possessing the land of Canaan in the Old Testament is reinterpreted in the New. "But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly..." [Hebrews 11:16] It corresponds to understanding the truth of the gospel, and receiving the promised inheritance of the saints, which is spiritual in nature.
An idea that prevails today is that no one can really be sure that any particular interpretation or understanding of Scripture is true. Since the expert scholars, authors of commentaries, authorities, all differ in their views, how can any one of us know for sure? Such a view discounts the holy Spirit that is given to the saints. It is not based upon faith, but upon unbelief. This approach compares to the Israelites who wandered for 40 years in the wilderness, because of their gut reaction to a report based on a survey lasting for 40 days. They considered themselves locusts in comparison to the "giants" in the land, and those "giants" remained unchallenged for all of the 40 years. The same applies to generations of Christians in denominations and sects, who follow the teachings of men. People tend to accept the beliefs of the families in which they are born. They are unwilling to question, or challenge the "giants" who originated the teachings they inherit. The prophet Joel describes a great army in the day of the Lord under the figure of a locust plague. [Joel 2:1-11]
In Hebrews, the saints are encouraged to labor to enter into "rest," which does not refer to getting to heaven, but believing and understanding the word of God. "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." [Hebrews 4:11-12]
Doug
Beautiful discourse!
Israel on the march,in love and truth..........the armies of heaven were following Him,riding on white horses,,dressed in fine linen,white and clean
FAITHFUL AND TRUE
The King is in the House.
And the "labor" that we diligently do in order to enter that rest, the promised rest?
If any man would be my disciple, let him take up his cross daily and come, follow me.
I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me, and the life I live in the flesh I live by the faith of the son of God.
Come, all you that labor and are heavy laden, take my yoke upon you and learn of me(be discipled by me), for I am meek and lowly of heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
:cloud9: Amen.... :thumbsup:
i TELL YOU A SECRET,CHILDREN...THE g i ANTS ARE NOTHING BUT THOSE WHOSE GOD IS THEIR BELLY.....DUE TO PASS OUT INTO THE SEWER
[THEY WILL EAT POISON AND NOT BE HARMED] TWO NATIONS ARE IN YOUR BELLY pHPNS 3;19
rEVELATIONS OF 10; 'gO,TAKE THE SCROLL THAT LIES OPEN IN THE HAND OF THE ANGEL WHO IS STANDING ON THE SEA AND THE LAND.
SO i WENT TO THE ANGEL AND ASKED HIM TO GIVE ME THE LITTLE SCROLL[REMNANT] hE SAID TO ME TAKE IT AND EAT IT.iT WILL TURN YOUR STOMACH SOUR,
BUT IN YOUR MOUTH IT WILL BE AS SWEET AS HONEY[G.I. ANTS LOVE HONEY][SEE TEST OF JEALOUSY..BITTER SWOLLEN BELLY
tHEN i WAS TOLD, 'YOU MUST PROPHECY AGAIN,ABOUT MANY PEOPLES,NATIONS,LANGUAGES AND KINGS
oNLY THE SPIRIT OF cHRIST IN YOU/REVELATION OF CHRIST CAN OPEN THE LITTLE SCROLL THAT WAS SEALED
PROVERBS 6;6 GO TO THE ANT,YOU SLUGGARD; CONSIDER IT'S WAYS AND BE WISE IT HAS NO COMMANDER,NO OVERSEER OR RULER
YET IT STORES IT'S PROVISIONS IN SUMMER AND GATHERS ITS FOOD AT HARVEST...[EVEN THOSE WHOSE GOD IS THEIR BELLY EXTEND THEMSELVES FOR
THE THINGS THEY TREASURE/THE EARTHLY,SENSUAL AND DEVILISH] HOW MUCH MORE SHOULD WE LABOUR FOR THE TRUE RICHES!!
BELEIVE AND DO WHAT jESUS SAID!!!!!!!!!
:cloud9: Beautiful post..... :thumbsup:
LONDON (Reuters) - Up to 70 percent of British men and half of all Western European men are related to the Egyptian Pharaoh Tutankhamun, geneticists in Switzerland said.
http://af.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idAFTRE7704OR20110801?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0