Question on 2nd coming

[Zero7]

I know there have been many posts on the 2nd coming but I have one for those of you that believe that Christ will not come back until all of His enemies have been layed at His feet.

Matthew 24:30: At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

Doesn't this contradict that teaching? The nations of the earth will mourn at His coming.

Thx.

[Beloved Servant]

I always thought they were mourning for themselves; their Godless lives.

[Zero7]

I always thought they were mourning for themselves; their Godless lives.

I don't doubt that, they probably are. But if its suppose to be a utopia before Christ can come back, then this doesn't make much sense.

[Doug]

I know there have been many posts on the 2nd coming but I have one for those of you that believe that Christ will not come back until all of His enemies have been layed at His feet.

Matthew 24:30: At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

Doesn't this contradict that teaching? The nations of the earth will mourn at His coming.

Thx.

I have seen art depicting Jesus coming in clouds, but I think perhaps the artists may have missed the point of what Jesus was talking about here, as there is a symbolic meaning connected with clouds in scripture. Isaiah compared God's word to rain, and to snow, which are products of clouds.
   
Isaiah 55:6-11
6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
   
The land, mountains, valleys, rivers, seas, trees, wind, rain, hail, day, night, sun, stars, all have symbolic spiritual meanings, in various prophecies. The above scripture quote does not mention clouds, but rain implies clouds.

Twice in Ezekiel 38, the invading hordes of Gog and Magog are described as a "cloud covering the land."

Ezekiel 38:9
Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.

Ezekiel 38:16
And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

In the NT, the false teachers are described as "clouds that are carried with a tempest," in 2 Peter 2:17, and "clouds without water, carried about of winds," in Jude 1:12.

There are dark clouds, and bright ones, that bring showers. Peter said of the false teachers: "to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever." Joel said the day of the Lord is "A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness." [Joel 2:2] Bright clouds are mentioned by Zechariah:

Zechariah 10:1
Ask ye of the LORD rain in the time of the latter rain; so the LORD shall make bright clouds, and give them showers of rain, to every one grass in the field.

Daniel spoke of Jesus coming in the clouds.

Daniel 7:13
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

The saints seem to be identified with the clouds, in a prophecy of Isaiah:

Isaiah 60:8
Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?

Here is another scripture that speaks of Jesus coming with clouds:

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

If we compare the words of Jesus in Matthew 24:30 to these scriptures, it is not hard to understand what he meant by clouds; they represent the saints. This is also seen in Hebrews, after the chapter listing the heroes of faith.

Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.

The great confusion among Bible teachers is like dark clouds, gloominess; but the bright clouds are those who also bring welcome rain that waters the ground and helps produce the kind of fruit that honors God. In the prophecy about the two witnesses there is also a reference to clouds.

Revelation 11:11-12
And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

The interpretation, I think, is that the clouds are the saints, and the two witnesses are the Spirit, and the scriptures, which are revived, after being killed by the beast, and the church responds to it, and the saints accept the good things that Christ has prepared for them. It happens in the sight of their enemies: David wrote,

Psalm 23:5
Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

Doug

[micah7:9]

I must be out of the loop, but I cannot find the "second coming" in my Bible.

Mat 24:30  and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory; (YLT)
Appear G5316 phainō to lighten (shine),  that is, show

Sign G4592 sēmeion  an indication,  sign, token

The smiting of the breast seems more of an affrimation, or if it is a mourning or lament it maybe the realization of the time and the finality is now. But thats just my  :2c:

[Doug]

I must be out of the loop, but I cannot find the "second coming" in my Bible.

Mat 24:30  and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory; (YLT)
Appear G5316 phainō to lighten (shine),  that is, show

Sign G4592 sēmeion  an indication,  sign, token

The smiting of the breast seems more of an affrimation, or if it is a mourning or lament it maybe the realization of the time and the finality is now. But thats just my  :2c:

Jesus told the high priest who presided at his trial, that he would see him "coming in the clouds of heaven."

Mark 14:61-63
57 And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying,
58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
59 But neither so did their witness agree together.
60 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?

This must refer to events in the apostolic era. The high priest is mentioned in Acts, which says he was "filled with indignation" about the multitudes who turned to Christ, and about the miracles and signs that were done by the apostles.

Acts 5:14-18
14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)
15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
17 Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation,
18 And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison.

The sign of Jesus "coming in the clouds of heaven" must be a metaphor representing the work of the Holy Spirit through his saints, revealing Christ's power and authority over all.

Doug

[thinktank]

To me it means he will come back and every eye will see him. This is the hope that he will come back to resurect the dead. This is not about salvation, but about God coming back, to harvest his people, the living and the dead, while also, cleansing the earth from sin, by destroying all the wicked in a place called armargeddon. So to me christ wants vengeance on his enemies, he has been long patient and has the right to execute vengeance upon the wicked during armageddon. I doubt no saint will feel sorry for them , in fact God tells the saints to rejoice in heaven for taking vengeance on mystery babylon, not the same as armageddon but shows that God does not expect us to feel sorry for our enemies. You might think this is pointless, but think, if God wants to save all mankind he must show them that he is no pushover, the people during the battle of armageddon have the arrogance of trying to fight the almighty, so I believe armageddon is about proving to the universe, Gods might in dealing with his enemies.


John 20:17

[Zero7]

micah, just because you can't find the 'second coming' in the bible doesn't mean it isn't so.

Acts 1:11 -> "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

I guess I'll always believe in a physical, coming in the physical clouds, trumpet blast, every eye shall see Him coming back.

If I'm wrong, not that concerned, we'll all see Him some day one way or the other.

[Beloved Servant]

Parousia

I actually woke up the other morning with this word on my lips.
Not knowing how to spell it, I wrote it down phonetically and then forgot about it.
Because of this thread I just Googled "second coming of Jesus," and this word appeared right at the top in the Wiki hit.
God is truly amazing.

[Beloved Servant]

"For where two or three are gathered together in My name, THERE AM I IN THE MIDST OF THEM,"

"And, lo, I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, even unto the end of the age."

The PAROUSIA is THE PRESENCE OF HIS GLORY and THE GLORY OF HIS PRESENCE.

[micah7:9]

Joh 16:7  `But I tell you the truth; it is better for you that I go away, for if I may not go away, the Comforter will not come unto you, and if I go on, I will send Him unto you;

[Doug]

Here are a few more scriptures that we could consider, that may be related to the idea of Christ coming in the clouds. After the flood, God established a covenant with man, which has to do with clouds:

Genesis 9:12-14
12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

In the wilderness, God spoke to Moses from a cloud:

Exodus 19:9
And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.

The cloud was upon the tabernacle through all the journeys of the people of Israel, until they reached the promised land.

Exodus 40:38
For the cloud of the LORD was upon the tabernacle by day, and fire was on it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel, throughout all their journeys.

David said God is hidden by clouds, and darkness:

Psalm 18:11
He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.

In the wilderness, the cloud that hid God from the view of the people was a covering:

Psalm 105:38-40
38 Egypt was glad when they departed: for the fear of them fell upon them.
39 He spread a cloud for a covering; and fire to give light in the night.
40 The people asked, and he brought quails, and satisfied them with the bread of heaven.

The "daughter of Zion" is also covered in a cloud:

Lamentations 2:1
How hath the LORD covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud in his anger, and cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger!

This could also apply to the church, which is hard to identify, as the saints are scattered in tens of thousands of denominations.

Ezekiel compared Christ to a rainbow, in a rain cloud:

Ezekiel 1:28
As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

The clouds in the day of the lord are connected with a great army in Joel's prophecy. It is unique, and a great, strong people.

Joel 2:2
A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

This is very similar to the description that Zephaniah gave of the day of the Lord:

Zephaniah 1:15
That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness.

I suggest the promise of Christ "coming in the clouds" is connected with the covenant that God made with man after the flood, and with the rainbow, which in Ezekiel's prophecy, represents God. It is also connected with the prophecy of Malachi about Elijah, who represents the holy Spirit.

Malachi 4:5-6
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Doug

[Zero7]

Beloved Servant, that is truly amazing. Got goose bumps reading that. Praise His name.

[Zero7]

Doug and Micah,

I would love to hear your commentary on the verse I posted. They were told Jesus would come back in the exact manner of His ascension. Not much room for interpretation there, at least to me.
Thx.

[micah7:9]

Zero7

Act 1:11

(ASV)  who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.

(YLT)  who also said, `Men, Galileans, why do ye stand gazing into the heaven? this Jesus who was received up from you into the heaven, shall so come in what manner ye saw him going on to the heaven.'


The PAROUSIA is THE PRESENCE OF HIS GLORY and THE GLORY OF HIS PRESENCE (Beloved Servant)

Joh 6:60  many, therefore, of his disciples having heard, said, `This word is hard; who is able to hear it?'
Joh 6:61  And Jesus having known in himself that his disciples are murmuring about this, said to them, `Doth this stumble you?
Joh 6:62  if then ye may behold the Son of Man going up where he was before?
Joh 6:63  the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;
Joh 6:64  but there are certain of you who do not believe;' for Jesus had known from the beginning who they are who are not believing, and who is he who will deliver him up,
Joh 6:65  and he said, `Because of this I have said to you--No one is able to come unto me, if it may not have been given him from my Father.'

[Doug]

Zero7

Act 1:11

(ASV)  who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.

(YLT)  who also said, `Men, Galileans, why do ye stand gazing into the heaven? this Jesus who was received up from you into the heaven, shall so come in what manner ye saw him going on to the heaven.'


The PAROUSIA is THE PRESENCE OF HIS GLORY and THE GLORY OF HIS PRESENCE (Beloved Servant)

In what manner was it?

Acts 1:9
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Their view of the Lord was obscured by a cloud. This is how many scriptures say he comes; in a cloud. And clouds are associated with hiding and obscuring things from our sight. And also with false teachers, and the "cloud of witnesses" in Heb. 12:1, and the saints too.

Jesus said to the Jews,   

Matthew 23:39
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

He revealed himself to them, and to the high priest, as he said, but through his disciples, who were like bright "clouds" which dispensed the "rain" of the Gospel, and of God's word, in Jerusalem, and the whole world. [Isa. 55:10-12]

If they did not recognize the apostles as saints who came in the name of the Lord, they would not see him.

1 Thessalonians 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Doug

[micah7:9]

Yes

[Zero7]

Hmmm...interesting. I understand where your going with this, I think. So please forgive my denseness....are you of the opinion there will NOT be a physical returning of Christ then or that He must return in each and everyone of us before He does?

Use sock puppets please, I might get it then.  :icon_joker:

[micah7:9]

He is coming, has been coming, and will come in those who are looking for Him.

[Cardinal]

He is coming, has been coming, and will come in those who are looking for Him.

:cloud9: AMEN  :thumbsup:

[Doug]

Hmmm...interesting. I understand where your going with this, I think. So please forgive my denseness....are you of the opinion there will NOT be a physical returning of Christ then or that He must return in each and everyone of us before He does?

Jesus said, before he left his disciples, he would go and "prepare a place" for them, but he said that he would "come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." [John 14:1-3]

By the Spirit, Jesus comes to each of his saints individually. Jesus said to Judas, "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." [John 14:22-23]

This is one sense in which Jesus comes. The Spirit has remained with believers since the time of the apostles. The author of Hebrews says,

Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

By his Spirit, Jesus comes to the church continually. The time of the resurrection is also referred to as "coming of Christ."
   
1 Corinthians 15:22-23
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This event is yet to occur, at the last trump. [1 Corinthians 15:50-52] Revelation 11 describes the events of the 7th trumpet:

Revelation 11:15, 18
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. ...
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

James said we should be patient "unto the coming of the Lord."

James 5:7-9
Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Saints in all ages have looked for it. It is when they receive their reward.

Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Doug

[peacemaker]

He is coming, has been coming, and will come in those who are looking for Him.

It is so; so be it!

[Beloved Servant]

JEHOVAH-TSIDKENU, the Coming One, thy Righteousness.

JEHOVAH-JIREH, the Coming One, thy Provider.

JEHOVAH-ROPHI, the Coming One, thy Healer.

JEHOVAH-NISSI, the Coming One, thy Banner.

JEHOVAH-MEKADDISHKEN, the Coming One, thy Sanctifier.

JEHOVAH-SHALOM, the Coming One, thy Peace.

JEHOVAH-SABAOTH, the Coming One, thy Warrior.

JEHOVAH-SHAMMAH, the Coming One, Present with thee.

JEHOVAH-ELYON, the Coming One, Most High.

JEHOVAH-RA-AH, the Coming One, thy Shepherd.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  :thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

WELL (we are talkin real big letters here, I means big) GLORY! :grin: :bigGrin: :Sparkletooth: :happygrin: :happy3: :thumbsup: