I'm sure you're all familiar with the phrase "New World Order", first uttered (that I recall) by George H. W. Bush (Sr.) a long time ago (before Clinton's two terms). And no doubt you all have probably heard a lot of mysterious talk about the coming of a 'New World Order'.
Well, it seems to be quite in the front headlines again:
Analysis: Crisis may lead to new world order
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/04/01/oakley.summit/index.html
.....and I just wonder what you all think about it. In my way of thinking, it's like 'the jig is up - the age is closing, the end is nigh, the battle of Armageddon is at hand, the Great Tribulation is on the doorstep. We will soon be faced with some type of "world currency" it seems. It's rather shocking really to have watched so much prophecy unfold before my eyes in my lifetime. And I admit, at times, it is hard for me to hold on to joy because I feel that a great flood of destruction lies ahead for the earth. I know not everyone believes this way at all. Some people believe everything will just get better and better for the inhabitants of the earth. When I read Matthew chapter 24, I don't believe all that was fulfilled 2000 years ago. Anyway, I'm just talking to myself in public, I suppose. There is nothing anyone can do to change anything that must happen. And there is a part of me that welcomes the Day of the Lord because there is so much wickedness all around that I just want God to wipe mankind out. I don't think I'm wrong is saying that. I want HIM to do it. And I do think God is all powerful and that he does DESTROY as well as MAKE ALIVE. I don't buy into the line of thinking that God's judgment upon the land is not something to tremble at. That he is just all nice and never angry. The scriptures do not teach that. If anyone wants to post any thoughts on the New World Order, I'd be interested to hear various views. I can't talk about these things with my family - they avoid it like the plague.
Anne
I'll talk with you about it Anne, I understand what you're saying. I'm personally open to other interpretations of Revelation, do (pretty much) believe Matthew 24 was fulfilled, BUT...I too see and am startled by things that are happening. I grew up fearing the "end times", afraid I'd be left behind in the "rapture", and though God has grown me more into a hope and trust in His goodness and grace rather than my ability to be good enough to "earn an escape", I still am drawn to notice these things you mention, and still admittedly sometimes feel an uneasiness, if not fear at times.
I also wonder about these things we're hearing..."we need a world currency", "we need an international 'czar' of finance", "we need world-wide cooperation", and now we have elected our own "President of the World". I hear you...I hear you...and there's an internal struggle within me that says "oh my gosh, what is happening"/"trust God, He knows how to take care of this to the good"...it depends on the day as to which side within me wins.
Oh good grief. There's nothing new about these characters. Their roots go back thousands of years into Babylon.
Let's call it the Old World Order.
They are liars and their father is the father of lies.
They have manufactured this to celebrate the hundred year anniversary of taking over our currency.
I hope no one thinks the current 'crisis' is happening by accident? It was totally predictable by what they have been doing, especially in the last 8 years.
And, they have nothing good in store for mankind as witnessed by their intrusions into our private lives, their cameras everywhere, their black booted bodyguards, listening to our phone conversations? Give me a break. They are like the worst mother in law on steroids. They are murderers and liars like their father.
If prophecy means anything, they are the ones who will be taken away, not us--it is the meek who will inherit the earth, not them.
Someday--soon I hope--satan will no longer deceive the whole world.
Means I'm taking over the world pretty soon, but anyway, can't get into that on the boards 'cause that's theoretically treason in any country 'cause it means their overthrow/absorption. :cloud9: Anyway, seriously though, check out this link on the origin of the phrase:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novus_Ordo_Seclorum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novus_Ordo_Seclorum)
In previous centuries it was always about the Postmillenial hope of the global conquest with the Gospel. But it's become a favorite phrase for premillenial dispensational PARANOIA about the coming of a global kingdom of antiChrist that brands everyone with 666. And no, I'm not taking over the world. At least, not until Pinkie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinky_and_the_Brain) comes back to me. :CryBaby: :crywipe:
Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
Be a little patient with us that were raised in premillinial, rapture-filled, extreme, fundamentalist, "the tribulation is coming" environment, will 'ya :icon_joker:? Compare it to some things in your life perhaps...it can take a while to have these things work their way through...good, solid info is helpful :thumbsup:
So Mol, maybe talk some more about why you see what you see, and also Martin, I'll look at the link, but any more thoughts about past century beliefs vs. recent?
You can't blame that religiosity on fundamentalism 'cause although fundamentalism has historically become associated with certain areas of nonsense, the word "fundamentalist" means that it's supposed to simply be taking the Book at face value. And at face value, in any translation, it doesn't say any of that mess! :cloud9: :laughing7:
Quote from: martincisneros on April 02, 2009, 07:26:06 AM
You can't blame that religiosity on fundamentalism 'cause although fundamentalism has historically become associated with certain areas of nonsense, the word "fundamentalist" means that it's supposed to simply be taking the Book at face value. And at face value, in any translation, it doesn't say any of that mess! :cloud9: :laughing7:
How about extreme fundamentalism? Ever been there? I got some stories, brother.
Do you believe in religious abuse? Mixed in with a base of mental illness/mental retardation? And I'm talking about the preachers :mshock:.
QuoteI also wonder about these things we're hearing..."we need a world currency", "we need an international 'czar' of finance", "we need world-wide cooperation", and now we have elected our own "President of the World".
Yeah, in their dreams.
Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
Just what we need--the New Roman Empire --it's deja vu all over again.
42And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure. --Dan 2
So are you saying it's not happening, ignore/resist it, or it is happening, resist it? Because "they're" not going to be successful?
P.S., at LEAST, in the end, I realize they're not going to be successful, because God is going to be All in All...however, in the meantime....the process
Quote from: jabcat on April 02, 2009, 07:23:15 AM
Be a little patient with us that were raised in premillinial, rapture-filled, extreme, fundamentalist, "the tribulation is coming" environment, will 'ya :icon_joker:? Compare it to some things in your life perhaps...it can take a while to have these things work their way through...good, solid info is helpful :thumbsup:
They are the ones that manufactured all that. The rapture, the left behind, all that nonsense is out of their own heads to control millions of people who will just accept their fate passively. The moral majority, the moral right, all manufactured.
They invented advertising, mass media, wars, how to make you think you really really need to buy all that stuff you can't afford--it's all made up, illusion, smoke and mirrors. They can sell refrigerators to eskimos.
They can't even lie very well anymore, and are found out almost immediately every time they pull something.
Anyone paying attention can see through them with no trouble. But, most don't pay attention.
Quote from: jabcat on April 02, 2009, 07:31:00 AM
So are you saying it's not happening, ignore/resist it, or it is happening, resist it? Because "they're" not going to be successful?
P.S., at LEAST, in the end, I realize they're not going to be successful, because God is going to be All in All...however, in the meantime....the process
It is happening. Resist it. There are people working night and day resisting it. Help them out. There's plenty to do.
Thirty five thousand people showed up on the streets of London this week to say hello to them.
There's a bill in congress to prevent them tampering with our currency.
Everybody's got an agenda, unless they're asleep behind the wheel or into ultra liberal "whatever happens, happens." It's simply a race 'til the finish, but we know which global kingdom is eternal though.
Why wouldn't there be new Alexander the Greats and St. Pauls??
Find the good people in our congress and support them.
Find good people running for congress and support them.
Throw out the bums.
OK, now I'm hearing you both...my initial impression was a "pooh-pooh, ain't happening"...so OK, something's happening, again, I know they're not ULTIMATELY going to be successful, but boy they can cause a mess in the meantime...and I said I realize, "trust God, He'll fix it"...He'll take care of us, meet our needs. Imagine this though...for 20 years you were beat several times a week with a 2X4..as an adult, even though you now know you can protect yourself, it may make you just a LITTLE nervous if someone started walking toward you holding a 2X4...not always automatically feeling comforted and secure :laughing7:...
Quote from: jabcat on April 02, 2009, 07:39:39 AM
OK, now I'm hearing you both...my initial impression was a "pooh-pooh, ain't happening"...so OK, something's happening, again, I know they're not ULTIMATELY going to be successful, but boy they can cause a mess in the meantime...and I said I realize, "trust God, He'll fix it"...He'll take care of us, meet our needs. Imagine this though...for 20 years you were beat several times a week with a 2X4..as an adult, even though you now know you can protect yourself, it may make you just a LITTLE nervous if someone started walking toward you holding a 2X4...not always automatically feeling comforted and secure :laughing7:...
Okay, now, stay out of my childhood. Nobody said to go there :punish: :spank: :bdh: :hammerhead: :gfish: :Violinhit:
Thanks for the conversation, James. I appreciate your understanding of where I'm coming from. I did not post this because I like fear mongering. I posted it because I feel rather uneasy inside myself about the things I see going on around me on the outside. I have always been a believer that there would be an END. Jesus disciples asked him plainly (as recorded in Matthew 24) what the sign of the END of the world would be like. And his answer to them did not sound like a parable at all. It seems to me he gave a darn clear answer. He also comforted people about hard times by saying things like "let not your heart be troubled.... ye believe in God, believe also in me". I think obviously Jesus knew that perilous times would trouble our hearts, otherwise he would not have said over and over "do not be afraid, fear not - as well as all these things MUST be -- then comes the END. Also Jesus said that the coming of the son of Man would be as things were in the days of Noah. I assume that is symbolic of a FLOOD that is WORLDWIDE. And yet, I think it may be a flood of fire rather than one of water with all these nuclear weapons we have pointed at one another. And all the nations are gathered for war in the middle East - our headquarters is right in Babylon/Iraq now where the garden of Eden was - the cradle of civilization. Anyway, I do thank you, James for your humility of spirit and willingness to let me talk a little bit about these things.
love,
Anne
Yes of course it's happening.
This is their big push--they even announced it on the floor of the ny stock exchange.
They have been dreaming of this for hundreds of years.
They should all be in jail--not running the world. They are a bunch of criminals, in case you haven't noticed.
Not quite sure how anyone could miss that these days.
If you want [their] vision of the future, imagine a boot stomping on a human face--forever.
--Geo Orwell
:
Quote from: martincisneros on April 02, 2009, 07:44:33 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 02, 2009, 07:39:39 AM
OK, now I'm hearing you both...my initial impression was a "pooh-pooh, ain't happening"...so OK, something's happening, again, I know they're not ULTIMATELY going to be successful, but boy they can cause a mess in the meantime...and I said I realize, "trust God, He'll fix it"...He'll take care of us, meet our needs. Imagine this though...for 20 years you were beat several times a week with a 2X4..as an adult, even though you now know you can protect yourself, it may make you just a LITTLE nervous if someone started walking toward you holding a 2X4...not always automatically feeling comforted and secure :laughing7:...
Okay, now, stay out of my childhood. Nobody said to go there :punish: :spank: :bdh: :hammerhead: :gfish: :Violinhit:
LOL...the old "walk a mile in my shoes" routine...sometimes it does help with perspective :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 07:38:56 AM
Find the good people in our congress and support them.
Find good people running for congress and support them.
Throw out the bums.
But bums need a home too! :happy3:
And a job, they really need a job -- particularly a low skill one like politics! :thumbsup:
Good pay and nothing to do. What a life!!! :cloud9:
QuoteImagine this though...for 20 years you were beat several times a week with a 2X4.
What does that mean?
OK...what do you think prophecy says about this? Do you think it's the "things will wax worse and worse", then (and wonder at what point and what shape things will be in) God steps in, intervenes, and begins to even more directly begin to deal with evil and put His children in the 'ark'? You know there are 939.5 different views of this within Christendom...and that's just in one town here in Missouri.
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 07:50:01 AM
QuoteImagine this though...for 20 years you were beat several times a week with a 2X4.
What does that mean?
The religious left behind stuff that's bankrupt of Scriptural support.
Quote from: martincisneros on April 02, 2009, 07:46:44 AM
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 07:38:56 AM
Find the good people in our congress and support them.
Find good people running for congress and support them.
Throw out the bums.
But bums need a home too! :happy3:
And a job, they really need a job -- particularly a low skill one like politics! :thumbsup:
Good pay and nothing to do. What a life!!! :cloud9:
We should make a law forbidding them to make any more laws.
Everything they come up with is more of a nightmare than the one before.
And nobody reads this stuff before they are pressured to vote on it.
No one has any idea what dark shadows the last stimulus bill contains.
But I've heard some complain it was changed right before they signed it without their knowledge.
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 07:50:01 AM
QuoteImagine this though...for 20 years you were beat several times a week with a 2X4.
What does that mean?
Mainly addressing Martin regarding extreme fundamentalist upbringing and its effects on how one tends to react to this topic.
Quote from: jabcat on April 02, 2009, 07:51:57 AM
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 07:50:01 AM
QuoteImagine this though...for 20 years you were beat several times a week with a 2X4.
What does that mean?
Mainly addressing Martin regarding extreme fundamentalist upbringing and its effects on how one tends to react to this stuff.
Oh. Too bad you weren't raised by wolves like me. :happy3:
Trust our founders. They got it right. They just didn't forsee a time when every branch of government would be corrupted and the people would be brain dead.
But it's all reversible--still.
Our Constitution gives these poor Old World Order guys a massive headache.
They are even sending out memos that anyone with a copy of the Constitution is a potential terrorist.
wow. Orwell predicted that. How did he know?
rofl.
Quote from: jabcat on April 02, 2009, 07:50:50 AM
OK...what do you think prophecy says about this? Do you think it's the "things will wax worse and worse", then (and wonder at what point and what shape things will be in) God steps in, intervenes, and begins to even more directly begin to deal with evil and put His children in the 'ark'? You know there are 939.5 different views of this within Christendom...and that's just in one town here in Missouri.
I think the ark is 'in Christ' - but that has never stopped us from having to identify with Christ in the cross of his suffering being buried with him into the baptism of death. I just think that things will get more and more intense until the earth is burned up and the end of all flesh. I realize many people think that is rubbish. But if you spend an evening looking at the plight of the planet and the desperate state of humanity, it certainly seems obvious to me that the intensity of suffering is growing, not getting less. Millions of children starve to death on our planet. War atrocities are all over the globe, unbelievable crimes being committed by 'ordinary people'. Rampant sexual perversion. The energy crisis, the polluted oceans that have become so acidic that all the sea life is dying.... real estate crisis - tent cities in America, drug wars on the borders....what other conclusion can one draw other than the fulfillment of prophecies of the great and terrible day of the Lord? I mean, seriously - what kind of stuff have you all been reading to make you think everything is getting wonderful? Looks like hell on earth to me.
Anne
I've got to admit, Molly. I don't think I'm one that's brain-dead, but I do generally feel (personally) helpless besides praying about the situation, trying to help ensure my family's well-being, and trusting God in mine and my family's behalf :sigh:.
So, besides those aspects I've just listed, what are some things that cause you to feel empowered?
Molly,
In perilous times you are advising people to 'trust America's founding fathers'? We're going to be saved by fighting for our Constitution and an earthly government? I don't think so.
Jesus once said, "Do not weep for me - weep for yourselves and for your children. Do you think that was an odd thing for him to say? Why would Jesus say such a thing?
Anne
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 07:56:10 AM
Oh. Too bad you weren't raised by wolves like me. :happy3:
You too??
The Founding Fathers did foresee this. Their writings are full of the dangers of what would happen if the teachings of New Testament left the home. They knew from the beginning that our Constitution in the United States was wholly inadequate for governing anything other than a Christian people.
Quote from: jabcat on April 02, 2009, 07:51:57 AMMainly addressing Martin regarding extreme fundamentalist upbringing and its effects on how one tends to react to this topic.
Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe, Grant Jeffrey, and Mark Hanby (before he was freed from religious bondage) were my baby sitters, so I know all about the religious stuff. As I've said repeatedly, I was dispensational premillenialist until I was 31 and then in 2006 the Holy Spirit just started blurting out through me a Postmillenialist Gospel in my public preaching. Everything about the progress of the Gospel between now and the end of the millenium and Lord Jesus returning after the millenium. How He wasn't coming back to do for a thousand years all that He'd told us to do, etc. Obviously, as a result, I spent quite a bit of time in '06 and '07 rereading the book of Revelation from the most literal translations that I could find. And though the Concordant crowd has typically been premillenial dispensationalist, it was their translation along with Scarlett's that convinced me the most of the Scriptural support for Postmillenialism. Until recently, I wasn't looking too closely at preterism, but yesterday I started watching Kenneth Gentry's "The Beast of Revelation Identified" on YouTube and the case for preterism is interesting. Interesting enough for me to have saved it to my RealPlayer 'cause I want to hear it again about 150 to 300 times over the next couple of months or so and do a WHOLE LOT of praying and listening to Holy Spirit about it.
Quote from: jabcat on April 02, 2009, 08:04:03 AM
I've got to admit, Molly. I don't think I'm one that's brain-dead, but I do generally feel (personally) helpless besides praying about the situation, trying to help ensure my family's well-being, and trusting God in mine and my family's behalf :sigh:.
So, besides those aspects I've just listed, what are some things that cause you to feel empowered?
Empowered? Because I know who I am and I know where I come from. And, so do they.
They are scared to death of us. They are scared to death of the truth.
Their only hope is that they can terrorize us into going along, or kill us, or, preferably fool us.
But, they shrivel up before the truth.
Once you see the truth, you can never go back to believing their lies.
And people are waking up--I pray fast enough.
Think Hitler. Would you want him ruling over you?
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on April 02, 2009, 08:05:58 AM
Molly,
In perilous times you are advising people to 'trust America's founding fathers'? We're going to be saved by fighting for our Constitution and an earthly government? I don't think so.
Jesus once said, "Do not weep for me - weep for yourselves and for your children. Do you think that was an odd thing for him to say? Why would Jesus say such a thing?
Anne
Because the Roman Empire was about to go through perilous times. Israel was about to be DESTROYED and Biblical Judaism was to be no more forever and ever (and I don't mean anything connected to aion). Of course He said for them to weep 'cause if they rejected Him, then they had no connection to a Biblical faith ever again in this life.
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on April 02, 2009, 08:05:58 AM
Molly,
In perilous times you are advising people to 'trust America's founding fathers'? We're going to be saved by fighting for our Constitution and an earthly government? I don't think so.
Jesus once said, "Do not weep for me - weep for yourselves and for your children. Do you think that was an odd thing for him to say? Why would Jesus say such a thing?
Anne
Absolutely I am. They were Christians--and they felt they were setting up God's kingdom on earth.
I have been blessed with living in the freedom they made possible--and I would wish it for all people everywhere.
Jesus was talking about 70 AD, which must have been a horrible time for all who lived through it.
That's a lot of what I'm wondering too, Anne. God's going to win, but what are things going to look like tomorrow, next week, next year? Maybe no one knows...I recall, don't worry about tomorrow, there's enough trouble for today..God who clothes the lillies of the field and cares for the sparrow, cares so much more for us...
So Molly...some take the above I just quoted and say "then do nothing, totally trust God"...others say, "yes, trust God but put back some food and water too"...I tend to fall into the latter group. Then I believe you say there's enough some further steps...as in being more proactive, i.e., "throw the bums out"...shoot I agree, but again I admit, I'm personally feeling pretty overwhelmed by the situation and a personal difference I might make....you're up on this, seriously, maybe you can share some specifics with us who may not be brain-dead yet, but still not quite sure what to do...
I've thought and talked to my wife that I'd go to D.C. and do a protest, I talk to others in my circle of acquaintances about things, attempting to educate/inform, but man IT'S BIG.
Good thread Anne...hopefully some folks will take the opportunity to share and really try to help each other out here, while if there are others who just think this is all stupid will at least understand there are many with real concerns about this and things to work through and grow in the grace of God with it :thumbsup:. Again, good thread.
The key right now is congress.
Start paying attention to your congressman/senator.
Pay attention to bills.
Write letters.
Support the good people in office and running for office.
Educate yourself.
They are dead in the face of an educated population.
Which is why they spend so much money making us stupid lol.
Let them know there is somebody out there watching them.
Hold them accountable.
Welcome to the tea party of 2009 :teaching:
Now, send them your used tea ... :robinhood: ... bags!
I agree, all good. I wish there was more of an organized effort, a real movement/venue (PEACEFUL, Big Brother...don't want on any "watch lists"...promise, I'm not a terrorist :winkgrin:) to speak up
Global conquest is the goal of true Christianity. But not with lies, military, killing, etc. Through the preaching of the Gospel. All I've waited on is the Lord to take me off the leash and I'm the next Alexander the Great. But not with lies, military, killing, etc. The resurrection's not until after the millenium. The Lord's waiting on us to take this thing. Lots of passages about His High Priestly ministry that get twisted by the premillenialist into reflections of Christ Jesus bodily being on earth during the millenium. Israel will look upon Him whom they've pierced in the exact same way that we've looked upon Him whom our sins have pierced. Jesus cares for the lambs in Isaiah 40 through His High Priestly ministry and our stand of faith on the Hosea 2:18 covenant.
We're either going to overthrow religion in the next few years, or we're going to be stuck with it for centuries. We've entered into the season where we're at a Crossroads on what we're going to do, whether His Will will be done on earth as it is in heaven, or whether we're going to bury our talent. He's done absolutely all that He's ever going to do about it between now and the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked (2Timothy 4). He's not going to do another thing about it except what He's been doing [as High Priest] with honoring His Word as we stand on it. We already have His Holy Spirit. He's waiting on us to pour Him out upon all flesh. There's not another outpouring that'll ever happen again that's not coming straight from the Body in the earth. We pour Him out upon all flesh, or we take another walk around the mountain for 40 Jubilees and get judged accordingly with being allowed to rot in the desert.
Quote from: jabcat on April 02, 2009, 08:26:18 AM
I agree, all good. I wish there was more of an organized effort, a real movement/venue (PEACEFUL, Big Brother...don't want on any "watch lists"...promise, I'm not a terrorist :winkgrin:) to speak up
See how they work? A list lol.
Who makes lists?
Santa Claus, Fascists, Communists,--did I leave anyone out?
Oh. Control freaks!
What if 300 million people were on their list?
yeah, i know, it stinks, but it's apparently true...let's see can I spell i-n-t-i-m-i-d-a-t-i-o-n?
Quote from: martincisneros on April 02, 2009, 08:29:30 AM
Global conquest is the goal of true Christianity. But not with lies, military, killing, etc. Through the preaching of the Gospel. All I've waited on is the Lord to take me off the leash and I'm the next Alexander the Great. But not with lies, military, killing, etc. The resurrection's not until after the millenium. The Lord's waiting on us to take this thing. Lots of passages about His High Priestly ministry that get twisted by the premillenialist into reflections of Christ Jesus bodily being on earth during the millenium. Israel will look upon Him whom they've pierced in the exact same way that we've looked upon Him whom our sins have pierced. Jesus cares for the lambs in Isaiah 40 through His High Priestly ministry and our stand of faith on the Hosea 2:18 covenant.
We're either going to overthrow religion in the next few years, or we're going to be stuck with it for centuries. We've entered into the season where we're at a Crossroads on what we're going to do, whether His Will will be done on earth as it is in heaven, or whether we're going to bury our talent. He's done absolutely all that He's ever going to do about it between now and the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked (2Timothy 4). He's not going to do another thing about it except what He's been doing [as High Priest] with honoring His Word as we stand on it. We already have His Holy Spirit. He's waiting on us to pour Him out upon all flesh. There's not another outpouring that'll ever happen again that's not coming straight from the Body in the earth. We pour Him out upon all flesh, or we take another walk around the mountain for 40 Jubilees and get judged accordingly with being allowed to rot in the desert.
wow
Finally! :bgdance: :bgdance:
Quote from: jabcat on April 02, 2009, 08:30:56 AM
yeah, i know, it stinks, but it's apparently true...let's see can I spell i-n-t-i-m-i-d-a-t-i-o-n?
But that tells you who they are loud and clear, doesn't it?
yeah, i guess it does at that...very interesting post martin...plenty to contemplate...
What if we all refuse to fly the first monday of every month until they get rid of their stupid no fly lists?
It's little things like that which can send a huge message.
But right now the tail is wagging the dog. And the dog is allowing it.
Woof!
I've seen Christian Universalists scream about Colossians 2 and not being subject to times, seasons, limitations imposed upon their flesh by religion, etc., and yet I haven't really seen any that really "get it," that that means that this world is ours. The previous world that Christ's Kingdom wasn't of has already ceased. We're in the Hebrews 6 "age to come," yet we've got too many holding to a form of godliness but denying the power thereof. Scripture tells me, from such turn away. Not sure what some of the other translations say about that, but....
I HAVE NOT READ THIS...I very much respect J. Preston Eby's writings, he was one of, if not the first person God used to introduce UR to me. I went out just now searching information, and ran across this...read the first line or two and thought I'd post here for comment, as it apparently has to do with these current events now being discussed in this thread.
http://www.godfire.net/eby/America_Under_Judgment.htm
I'm going out to read it now.
Holy smokes! I see it's from the late 70's or early 80's :dontknow:....
Quote from: jabcat on April 02, 2009, 08:56:42 AM
Holy smokes! I see it's from the late 70's or early 80's :dontknow:....
haha. Same people were in charge then.
wow look at his conclusion, Jab
And surely God shall rise with a fury in His nostrils and He shall stretch out His arm, and then shall deliverance come. So be ye not disturbed over these things, for they cannot come until there is a man (spiritual) full grown. They cannot arrive until the man has been brought upon the sea. A many membered one it shall be even in the form of the Christ that stands in the heavens and also on the earth. He shall walk in the triumphant splendor and emergeth in the grandeur of His God. But his ambition shall not be, yea, to live in the heavens.., his desires shall be TO DO THE FATHER'S WILL and walk in the loneliest places of earth that there might be, not only the rain, but even the dew with its refreshing portion, even in the early morning and in the twilight of the Day..."
Ah, it is a black night through which our nation and the world must pass. Yet, praise God, there will also be THE DAWNING OF A NEW DAY, a regeneration process, a full and complete manifestation of the Kingdom of God upon earth. Glory!
After reading, Wow! Powerful! "Lord I want to be in that number"... That's all I got to say right now.
as I see it, the nwo is currently in its final stages of design...
the economic collapse was caused so that the world's federal governments could "bail out" the banks and big companies, effectively turning ownership over to the governments...
now that the governments own the banks, they own the monetary system of the world...and in their eyes, own the world
it is crucial to note that America's biggest creditor is China...which holds trillions of $ worth of American debt...
so, I'm reluctant to ask this, but what happens when America defaults and China starts calling for a payback?
in the case of a home loan from a bank....what happens when one cannot pay back your bond?
The New World Order is a phrase built in paranoia.
.....I'm tired of thinking about all of it. . I think from now on
I'll keep up with the fashions of Michelle Obama and enjoy looking
at them.
And watch that little ole queen and keep trying to figure out
why she carries that old timy little black purse?
If we can't change a hair on our own head or add a cubit
to our stature, why do we think we can either prevent or bring
to pass a New World Order? I think it's Jesus that can do that!
Besides, His New World, was not "of" this world.
I'm going bowling................!!! or blow on my arm!
Hi Red -
Well, I simply don't hold the same End Time view as most of those posting in this thread. But whatever. I never have believed in a literal rapture either, nor have I read or believed in the "Left Behind" stuff. However, I do believe in a Great Tribulation for ALL the inhabitants of the earth and I believe Matthew 24 was not fulfilled thousands of years ago. And if that makes me someone who should be turned away from, then so be it. I've been mostly a loner my whole life - I'm used to it.
It is raining cats and dogs here just now!
anne
Quote from: noname on April 02, 2009, 03:34:31 PM
so, I'm reluctant to ask this, but what happens when America defaults and China starts calling for a payback?
in the case of a home loan from a bank....what happens when one cannot pay back your bond?
Not the same scenario in the first place.
China won't call for payback as what rational people actually see, even those in a communist nation, is that it will never be in their best interest to try to hold the US over a barrel.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 02, 2009, 05:16:59 PM
Quote from: noname on April 02, 2009, 03:34:31 PM
so, I'm reluctant to ask this, but what happens when America defaults and China starts calling for a payback?
in the case of a home loan from a bank....what happens when one cannot pay back your bond?
Not the same scenario in the first place.
China won't call for payback as what rational people actually see, even those in a communist nation, is that it will never be in their best interest to try to hold the US over a barrel.
be careful who you call a "communist nation"...simple equation: communism=the state owns everything...America is fast approaching that...or have you not noticed how many of your civil liberties have been taken away in the last few years and how many banks and companies have been "bailed out"...and still it is continuing under the new administration
I'm pretty sure China will call in America's debt when the time is right...
Bailed out by who?
And who owns those who paid the bail out......?
Quote from: noname on April 02, 2009, 05:38:27 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 02, 2009, 05:16:59 PM
Quote from: noname on April 02, 2009, 03:34:31 PM
so, I'm reluctant to ask this, but what happens when America defaults and China starts calling for a payback?
in the case of a home loan from a bank....what happens when one cannot pay back your bond?
Not the same scenario in the first place.
China won't call for payback as what rational people actually see, even those in a communist nation, is that it will never be in their best interest to try to hold the US over a barrel.
be careful who you call a "communist nation"...simple equation: communism=the state owns everything...America is fast approaching that...or have you not noticed how many of your civil liberties have been taken away in the last few years and how many banks and companies have been "bailed out"...and still it is continuing under the new administration
I'm pretty sure China will call in America's debt when the time is right...
That's also fascism. What flavor of tyranny will they prefer? Depends on which party is in charge.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 02, 2009, 05:51:37 PM
Bailed out by who?
And who owns those who paid the bail out......?
Bailed out by the owner of the world, of course.
Quote from: noname on April 02, 2009, 05:38:27 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 02, 2009, 05:16:59 PM
Quote from: noname on April 02, 2009, 03:34:31 PM
so, I'm reluctant to ask this, but what happens when America defaults and China starts calling for a payback?
in the case of a home loan from a bank....what happens when one cannot pay back your bond?
Not the same scenario in the first place.
China won't call for payback as what rational people actually see, even those in a communist nation, is that it will never be in their best interest to try to hold the US over a barrel.
be careful who you call a "communist nation"...simple equation: communism=the state owns everything...America is fast approaching that...or have you not noticed how many of your civil liberties have been taken away in the last few years and how many banks and companies have been "bailed out"...and still it is continuing under the new administration
I'm pretty sure China will call in America's debt when the time is right...
Oh, the civil liberties issue, yeah, more paranoia, your whole demeanor is paranoid.
Actually what's funny about the constitution and your viewpoint is the founding fathers wanted its citizens to stay armed in order to defend against a tyrannical government.
You lay claim to this tyranny that now exists but you critisize anyone taking violent action against another. Because if you fight this supposed take over, to actually STOP it, there will be human casualties, that you can be ASSured of.
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 05:56:31 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 02, 2009, 05:51:37 PM
Bailed out by who?
And who owns those who paid the bail out......?
Bailed out by the owner of the world, of course.
Yes, Alfred E. Neuman
oh wait, the anti-christ we all have to be on the look out for is the owner, yeah,
'
yawn.
oh the NWO is actually a wresting organization, not sure it's doing that well, don't remember.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 02, 2009, 06:07:12 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 05:56:31 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 02, 2009, 05:51:37 PM
Bailed out by who?
And who owns those who paid the bail out......?
Bailed out by the owner of the world, of course.
Yes, Alfred E. Neuman
oh wait, the anti-christ we all have to be on the look out for is the owner, yeah,
'
yawn.
oh the NWO is actually a wresting organization, not sure it's doing that well, don't remember.
No. The one who prints the money. I'd do it myself, but it's illegal for me to do it.
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 06:14:23 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 02, 2009, 06:07:12 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 05:56:31 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 02, 2009, 05:51:37 PM
Bailed out by who?
And who owns those who paid the bail out......?
Bailed out by the owner of the world, of course.
Yes, Alfred E. Neuman
oh wait, the anti-christ we all have to be on the look out for is the owner, yeah,
'
yawn.
oh the NWO is actually a wresting organization, not sure it's doing that well, don't remember.
No. The one who prints the money. I'd do it myself, but it's illegal for me to do it.
That is only an issue if you get caught.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 02, 2009, 06:18:22 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 06:14:23 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 02, 2009, 06:07:12 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 05:56:31 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 02, 2009, 05:51:37 PM
Bailed out by who?
And who owns those who paid the bail out......?
Bailed out by the owner of the world, of course.
Yes, Alfred E. Neuman
oh wait, the anti-christ we all have to be on the look out for is the owner, yeah,
'
yawn.
oh the NWO is actually a wresting organization, not sure it's doing that well, don't remember.
No. The one who prints the money. I'd do it myself, but it's illegal for me to do it.
That is only an issue if you get caught.
Good point. So I could print all the money we both need. I would loan it to you, as much as you want. Of course, the minute you take the first loan, you will be my slave forever because you will never be able to pay me back. But I will happily take the interest from you and your children and your grandchildren--forever! I like it!
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 05:56:31 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 02, 2009, 05:51:37 PM
Bailed out by who?
And who owns those who paid the bail out......?
Bailed out by the owner of the world, of course.
Exactly.
That's a private organisation; so no communism
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 02, 2009, 06:43:34 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 05:56:31 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 02, 2009, 05:51:37 PM
Bailed out by who?
And who owns those who paid the bail out......?
Bailed out by the owner of the world, of course.
Exactly.
That's a private organisation; so no communism
It just depends what flavor of the month they want to hide behind.
Communism--all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 06:25:05 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 02, 2009, 06:18:22 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 06:14:23 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 02, 2009, 06:07:12 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 05:56:31 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 02, 2009, 05:51:37 PM
Bailed out by who?
And who owns those who paid the bail out......?
Bailed out by the owner of the world, of course.
Yes, Alfred E. Neuman
oh wait, the anti-christ we all have to be on the look out for is the owner, yeah,
'
yawn.
oh the NWO is actually a wresting organization, not sure it's doing that well, don't remember.
No. The one who prints the money. I'd do it myself, but it's illegal for me to do it.
That is only an issue if you get caught.
Good point. So I could print all the money we both need. I would loan it to you, as much as you want. Of course, the minute you take the first loan, you will be my slave forever because you will never be able to pay me back. But I will happily take the interest from you and your children and your grandchildren--forever! I like it!
I have paid off loans, wonder how that happened....... Got school loans too, they are a fixed amount and those will be paid back. Gee, wonder how that is possible.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 02, 2009, 06:49:00 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 06:25:05 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 02, 2009, 06:18:22 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 06:14:23 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 02, 2009, 06:07:12 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 05:56:31 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 02, 2009, 05:51:37 PM
Bailed out by who?
And who owns those who paid the bail out......?
Bailed out by the owner of the world, of course.
Yes, Alfred E. Neuman
oh wait, the anti-christ we all have to be on the look out for is the owner, yeah,
'
yawn.
oh the NWO is actually a wresting organization, not sure it's doing that well, don't remember.
No. The one who prints the money. I'd do it myself, but it's illegal for me to do it.
That is only an issue if you get caught.
Good point. So I could print all the money we both need. I would loan it to you, as much as you want. Of course, the minute you take the first loan, you will be my slave forever because you will never be able to pay me back. But I will happily take the interest from you and your children and your grandchildren--forever! I like it!
I have paid off loans, wonder how that happened....... Got school loans too, they are a fixed amount and those will be paid back. Gee, wonder how that is possible.
Really? What are you paying them back with? Debt? Oh--look at your money--it's a note! It says so right on it.
Main Entry: bank·note
Function: noun
: a promissory note issued by a bank payable to bearer on demand without interest and acceptable as money
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 06:53:19 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 02, 2009, 06:49:00 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 06:25:05 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 02, 2009, 06:18:22 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 06:14:23 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 02, 2009, 06:07:12 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 05:56:31 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 02, 2009, 05:51:37 PM
Bailed out by who?
And who owns those who paid the bail out......?
Bailed out by the owner of the world, of course.
Yes, Alfred E. Neuman
oh wait, the anti-christ we all have to be on the look out for is the owner, yeah,
'
yawn.
oh the NWO is actually a wresting organization, not sure it's doing that well, don't remember.
No. The one who prints the money. I'd do it myself, but it's illegal for me to do it.
That is only an issue if you get caught.
Good point. So I could print all the money we both need. I would loan it to you, as much as you want. Of course, the minute you take the first loan, you will be my slave forever because you will never be able to pay me back. But I will happily take the interest from you and your children and your grandchildren--forever! I like it!
I have paid off loans, wonder how that happened....... Got school loans too, they are a fixed amount and those will be paid back. Gee, wonder how that is possible.
Really? What are you paying them back with? Debt? Oh--look at your money--it's a note! It says so right on it.
Main Entry: bank·note
Function: noun
: a promissory note issued by a bank payable to bearer on demand without interest and acceptable as money
The reason we have dollar bills and change is so that we do not have to scrape some gold off of a nugget every time we go to buy something. Gold can get kinda heavy and it's much harder to weigh some gold dust when you just want a slurpee.
Our currency is a representation of that. It is not an illusion that I went to work, got a pay check then go to my bank and cash it, then I write a check to the people I owe and when I do not owe them any more money.
The debt is paid.
While the paranoid people want to use our national debt and deficite as this tool to scare you, the issue is that it is a representation of the countries ability to get things done without having to have cash on hand and it is also a way to keep currency flowing in our hands.
There really is nothing to be scared of in terms of the government siezing your bank accounts and raiding your homes for jewelry to help support us. There really isn't.
The value of a dollar bill is a representation of the earning power our economy has, it goes up and down all the time and it is interesting that as all the chickens clucking the same sound chickens always make, our country remains strong and resilient because people keep going to work and trying, politicians as flawed as they may be and as unscrupulous as we can find some of them simply want to try for the most parr.
No idea is perfect and no scenario can be undone, it really is you and people like you and your paranoid freakish assertions that are more damaging to the spirit than anything you seem to think we need to worry about.
What gold?
The Bretton Woods system was a international monetary framework of fixed exchange rates after World War II. Drawn up by the U.S. and Britain in 1944. Keynes was one of the architects.
The Bretton Woods system ended on August 15, 1971, when President Richard Nixon ended trading of gold at the fixed price of $35/ounce. At that point for the first time in history, formal links between the major world currencies and real commodities were severed.
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 07:51:27 PM
What gold?
Oh seriously, lol. Humor is good medicine.
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on April 02, 2009, 05:05:51 PM
Hi Red -
Well, I simply don't hold the same End Time view as most of those posting in this thread. But whatever. I never have believed in a literal rapture either, nor have I read or believed in the "Left Behind" stuff. However, I do believe in a Great Tribulation for ALL the inhabitants of the earth and I believe Matthew 24 was not fulfilled thousands of years ago. And if that makes me someone who should be turned away from, then so be it. I've been mostly a loner my whole life - I'm used to it.
It is raining cats and dogs here just now!
anne
I'm not even sure what my end times views are right now. I'm a pest about "all of the details." I finally found something halfway decent on a preterist view of the book of Revelation and it's raising a lot of questions for me. Too many questions. http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=C31A25E0CE0A1DC5 (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=C31A25E0CE0A1DC5)
It was refreshing at least to hear a Postmillenialist on video say that the world's going to get better and better. It's towards the end of the series of videos. I understood all of the Scriptures on that without him getting very deeply into that aspect. After years and years of hearing that God's giving this earth to the devil for 7 years as a birthday present after Jesus had already paid for all of this with His Blood, I was ready to hear someone else besides me say something more Scripturally centered that doesn't reflect God stealing from Jesus to let the devil have his say.
As far as the attitude that I expressed of like a King David of running through a troop or flying over a wall, etc., that's Biblically consistent from cover to cover with the Bible's teaching about the righteous are supposed to be bold as a lion and making the wicked to cower. But what specifically are the sign posts that lead up to the millenium or beyond towards the return of Jesus Christ to judge the living and the dead, like it says in Daniel 12 and John 5, I'm not sure what the specific sign posts are right now if there's a genuine chance of the first 19 chapters of Revelation having already been fulfilled, as the above video would seem to indicate more fully than what I've seen online thus far.
I may personally wind up going back into really indepth studies of the Hosea 2:18 covenant and use that as a territory marker and count out my number of paces to that tree, that rock, and that whatever in the prophesies with trying to feel my way around what happens between now and the return of Christ. I've always understood the Hosea 2:18 covenant to be prior to the millenium, and up until recently I'd thought that the millenium was actually started by the conversion of Israel. But those pesky details that I was alluding to are making that problematic. If not problematic, then at least questionable.
I don't "need" Israel saved prior to 1Corinthians 15:28, if that makes any sense. God's definitely not doing a two religions thing as the dispensational premillenialist would assert that God is dependent upon a resurrection of Biblical Judaism, etc. There's no such thing as Biblical Judaism any more after the resurrection of Jesus Christ 'cause all of the Old Testament law, ceremonies, etc., were on the understanding that they stood in the gap until Jesus came. There's not only the clear statements about that in the prophets of the Old Testament, but Galatians, Acts, and Hebrews carry that idea in the New Testament.
I guess one of my biggest issues is that I'm realizing that my previous view of the millenium was all Israel centered and that now that I know better from the Scriptures, there's gaps created as far as, Okay, I understand that the triumph of the preaching of the Gospel is to be a universally global thing that'll happen shortly. But, in terms of what the millenium looks like, I'm not sure. I'm still not buying into a theonomical view that the Mosaic law in a Christianized sense will be the rule of law in all of the countries of the world. Unless, we were talking about the Constitution of the United States with a thin amount of tweaking being more closely followed in a restructuring of the governments of the world.
The Constitution of the United States is wholly inadequate for the governing of any people that aren't Christians. However, it's an appropriate model, at least skeletally, for how to set up Christian Republics. There are a few issues for the 21st century and particularly the 22nd century that the U.S. Constitution hasn't addressed yet. Lots of animal rights legislation that's been passed over the last 10 or 20 years actually goes into affect in the next decade. And I think that the rest of the century will be about tweaking that since some of it is unprecidented. Battery Hen cages are illegal in the EU after 2012, etc. Imigration and naturalization issues are obviously being reevaluated by some countries, particularly in the Western Hemisphere, as the world is shrinking with airplanes and other types of transportation that are making really large countries crossable in 4 to 6hrs. And I'm not just talking about military aircraft. A CitationX personal jet can go from NY to LA in 4hrs. And more impressive civilian transportation is in developmental stages. When the costs really come down on some of these technologies, then they'll be universally accessible.
If we anticipate a close to the present world within the next 1100 to 2500 years with these kinds of technological advances, and presuming wars don't become so catastrophic that we're thrown back into the stone age, then what must our eschatology look like and how must it reinterpret images of dragons, pits, etc., when for all we know those could be the transportation means of the future and the pits be synonymous with either where you park or some portal that you travel an impossibly large distance in either moments or hours?
I do believe that the Bible anticipates any world that we'd ever face, but Scripture indicates to me that we're supposed to be in the know of what's going to happen. I can produce my Bible verses later on that if anyone's unaware of where the Bible says that, but the Gospel of John, Romans, 1Corinthians, Ephesians, 1John, and Revelation are among some of the books that mention it. Sometimes you mention a few verses on something and if it's a controversial topic, then the accusation is that you're taking something out of context, etc.
St. Paul indicates that the Gospel is something new under the sun. His overall tone is to that effect, but things that I'd take to mean that are in the first and last chapters of Romans, the first and third chapters of Ephesians, Colossians 1, Titus 1, etc. And of course, the book of Acts says that this was anticipated by all of the prophets since the world began, but has only just now been manifested. Introduce something entirely new, and not just according to the Bible, but according to many fields of science, mathematics, and philosophy, you've fundamentally changed the whole universe and every particle in it. So, I don't believe that you can go back to Genesis and get your eschatology from there. There are glimpses of the New Earth with the preflood world and of the all in all world with the Edenic state, but since sin will never make a comeback, the similarities pretty much end there.
So, any kind of eschatology would have to look at the Psalms and Prophets of the Old Testament, as well as various hints of eschatology in the New Testament. You're not permitted a very holistic view of our world by either a premillenial or an amillenial view. A holistic view of our world is only allowed by a postmillenial view of the world. Amillenialism says that the Church never triumphs in history, we've been in a figurative millenium since the ascension of Christ, and the return of Christ ends history. Premillenialism likewise says that the Church is bankrupt of potential, so therefore "this world's not our home" although the Scriptures say otherwise with this earth abiding virtually forever, Jesus being said in Revelation 11 to come back to destroy those who are destroying the earth, etc. Neither Amillenialism nor Premillenialism allow for Christ to have given the Church enough to be able to face any evil that could come down the road. According to both views, the Church is finally checkmated and Jesus has to come to the rescue for His shameful Church, again contrary to Scripture that indicates a glorious bride without spot or blemish. Neither premillenialism nor amillenialism allow for a very glorious Church at the close of history. Hence, my growing abhorence for both views.
The first century did get worse and worse, as Jesus and St. Paul anticipated, however, the power of the devil to keep the Gospel out of every nation evidently was broken, though I'm not sure that I'd go as far as Kenneth Gentry in the video link above in saying that the devil was already bound in the sense that Revelation says it'll happen. If that happened, then perhaps a third of the angels did fall BECAUSE we're still having to face down and overcome enormous amounts of evil just to survive. The world is progressing towards better and better, although it's one of those things where you can choose to see more evil than good if that's what's in your heart. But compared to the barbarism of previous millenia? When looking at history over the long term rather than from the time period of the Reformation, then you can't honestly conclude that the world's gotten more evil. More dangerous without a doubt, but not more evil. You can see the salt/leaven of the Gospel at work.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 02, 2009, 08:00:08 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 07:51:27 PM
What gold?
Oh seriously, lol. Humor is good medicine.
Do you know what a fiat currency is?
Common type of currency issued by official order, and whose value is based on the issuing authority's guarantee to pay the stated (face) amount on demand, and not on any intrinsic worth or extrinsic backing. All national currencies in circulation, issued and managed by the respective central banks, are fiat currencies.
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 08:04:20 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 02, 2009, 08:00:08 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 07:51:27 PM
What gold?
Oh seriously, lol. Humor is good medicine.
Do you know what a fiat currency is?
Common type of currency issued by official order, and whose value is based on the issuing authority's guarantee to pay the stated (face) amount on demand, and not on any intrinsic worth or extrinsic backing. All national currencies in circulation, issued and managed by the respective central banks, are fiat currencies.
And you make my point of your paranoia is that you believe that our government is not going to honor that currency which is the only point and time where it would have no value.
So thats where this all goes, your so scared and you do nothing but promote that fear as if tomorrow our money will be worthless.
Perhaps anything is possible, so now that you point out these facts, what does that mean?
That fear is a misunderstanding of the system really, this system has been in place for a long long time and the critics who say that a system cannot survive like that has long been proven wrong.
So what really are you in fear of? What exactly is going to happen now that you are right about our currency? what?
QuoteAnd you make my point of your paranoia is that you believe that our government is not going to honor that currency which is the only point and time where it would have no value.
Honor it with what? The grand canyon? The shirt off your back?
Our government is trillions of dollars in debt! You are paying your bills with debt.
QuoteThat fear is a misunderstanding of the system really, this system has been in place for a long long time and the critics who say that a system cannot survive like that has long been proven wrong.
It's been in place in its current form (no extrinsic backing) since 1971.
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 08:29:42 PM
QuoteAnd you make my point of your paranoia is that you believe that our government is not going to honor that currency which is the only point and time where it would have no value.
Honor it with what? The grand canyon? The shirt off your back?
Our government is trillions of dollars in debt! You are paying your bills with debt.
So whats going to happen? What? Spell it out.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 02, 2009, 08:31:50 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 08:29:42 PM
QuoteAnd you make my point of your paranoia is that you believe that our government is not going to honor that currency which is the only point and time where it would have no value.
Honor it with what? The grand canyon? The shirt off your back?
Our government is trillions of dollars in debt! You are paying your bills with debt.
So whats going to happen? What? Spell it out.
I doubt you would listen no matter what I say.
Study runaway inflation. Study the Weimer Republic in Germany. Study the recent history of Argentina.
Figure out what happens when a country's currency is destroyed.
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 08:36:37 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 02, 2009, 08:31:50 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 08:29:42 PM
QuoteAnd you make my point of your paranoia is that you believe that our government is not going to honor that currency which is the only point and time where it would have no value.
Honor it with what? The grand canyon? The shirt off your back?
Our government is trillions of dollars in debt! You are paying your bills with debt.
So whats going to happen? What? Spell it out.
I doubt you would listen no matter what I say.
Study runaway inflation. Study the Weimer Republic in Germany. Study the recent history of Argentina.
Figure out what happens when a country's currency is destroyed.
Ok, when our country collaspes I'll admit your right, maybe i'll tell you in person if we are sent to the same containment camp.
Till then, I will go to work and do the best I can, vote with the best of my ability and enjoy life and help those I can and not fear that which I have no control over. I will encourage others to do the same.
Molly can you explain the ratio between our gross national product and the national debt and what that means?
:cloud9: Maybe it'll be one of these...... :sigh:
http://www.mindfull y.org/Reform/ 2004/FEMA- Concentration- Camps3sep04. htM
There over 800 prison camps in the United States, all fully operational and ready to receive prisoners. They are all staffed and even surrounded by full-time guards, but they are all empty. These camps are to be operated by FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) should Martial Law need to be implemented in the United States and all it would take is a presidential signature on a proclamation and the attorney general's signature on a warrant to which a list of names is attached.
The camps all have railroad facilities as well as roads leading to and from the detention facilities. Many also have an airport nearby. The majority of the camps can house a population of 20,000 prisoners. Currently, the largest of these facilities is just outside of Fairbanks, Alaska. The Alaskan facility is a massive mental health facility and can hold approximately 2 million people.
QuoteOk, when our country collaspes I'll admit your right, maybe i'll tell you in person if we are sent to the same containment camp.
Oh, that will be cold comfort.
QuoteTill then, I will go to work and do the best I can, vote with the best of my ability and enjoy life and help those I can and not fear that which I have no control over. I will encourage others to do the same.
Why are the only two options ignorance or fear? Couldn't we educate ourselves so we know what is going on and have some input into our destinies and those of our children?
We may be sheep but we are Christ's sheep, not satan's.
Quote from: Cardinal on April 02, 2009, 08:47:45 PM
:cloud9: Maybe it'll be one of these...... :sigh:
http://www.mindfull y.org/Reform/ 2004/FEMA- Concentration- Camps3sep04. htM
There over 800 prison camps in the United States, all fully operational and ready to receive prisoners. They are all staffed and even surrounded by full-time guards, but they are all empty. These camps are to be operated by FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) should Martial Law need to be implemented in the United States and all it would take is a presidential signature on a proclamation and the attorney general's signature on a warrant to which a list of names is attached.
The camps all have railroad facilities as well as roads leading to and from the detention facilities. Many also have an airport nearby. The majority of the camps can house a population of 20,000 prisoners. Currently, the largest of these facilities is just outside of Fairbanks, Alaska. The Alaskan facility is a massive mental health facility and can hold approximately 2 million people.
Hey, if I got sent to one of those, the bill collectors couldn't find me. I'm going to go and create massive debt far more than I can ever pay and enjoy the high life, I mean, these paranoid people are sure that we are going to end up there and I now believe them, yeah, so lets party. Good luck getting my illusionary money out of this turnip.
:cloud9: Here's another cheery article. This one was in the Seattle paper......
Use of military in quelling domestic unrest a scary sign
AMY GOODMAN
SYNDICATED COLUMNIST
A little-noticed story surfaced a couple of weeks ago in the Army Times newspaper about the 3rd Infantry Division's 1st Brigade Combat Team. "Beginning Oct. 1 for 12 months," reported Army Times staff writer Gina Cavallaro, "the 1st BCT will be under the day-to-day control of U.S. Army North, the Army service component of Northern Command, as an on-call federal response force for natural or manmade emergencies and disasters, including terrorist attacks." Disturbingly, she writes that "they may be called upon to help with civil unrest and crowd control" as well.
The force will be called the chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear or high-yield explosive Consequence Management Response Force. Its acronym, CCMRF, is pronounced "sea-smurf." These "sea-smurfs," Cavallaro reports, have "spent 35 of the last 60 months in Iraq patrolling in full battle rattle," in a combat zone, and now will spend their 20-month "dwell time" -- time troops are required to spend to "reset and regenerate after a deployment" -- armed and ready to hit the U.S. streets.
The Army Times piece includes a correction stating that the forces would not use nonlethal weaponry domestically. I called Air Force Lt. Col. Jamie Goodpaster, a public affairs officer for Northern Command. She told me that the overall mission was humanitarian, to save lives and help communities recover from catastrophic events. Nevertheless, the military forces would have weapons on-site, "containerized," she said -- that is, stored in containers -- including both lethal and so-called nonlethal weapons. They would have mostly wheeled vehicles, but would also, she said, have access to tanks. She said that use of weapons would be made at a higher level, perhaps at the secretary of defense level.
Talk of trouble on U.S. streets is omnipresent now, with the juxtaposition of Wall Street and Main Street. The financial crisis we face remains obscure to most people; titans of business and government officials assure us that the financial system is "on the brink," that a massive bailout is necessary, immediately, to prevent a disaster. Conservative and progressive members of Congress, at the insistence of constituents, blocked the initial plan. If the economy does collapse, if people can't go down to the bank to withdraw their savings, or get cash from an ATM, there may be serious "civil unrest," and the "sea-smurfs" may be called upon sooner than we imagine to assist with "crowd control."
The political and financial establishments seem completely galled that people would actually oppose their massive bailout, which rewards financiers for gambling. Normal people worry about paying their bills, buying groceries and gas, and paying rent or a mortgage in increasingly uncertain times. No one ever offers to bail them out. Wall Street's house of cards has collapsed, and the rich bankers are getting little sympathy from working people.
That's where the sea-smurfs come in. Officially formed to respond to major disasters, like a nuclear or biological attack, this combat brigade falls under the U.S. Northern Command, a military structure formed on Oct, 1, 2002, to "provide command and control of Department of Defense homeland defense efforts." Military participation in domestic operations was originally outlawed with the Posse Comitatus Act in 1878. The John Warner National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2007, however, included a section that allowed the president to deploy the armed forces to "restore public order" or to suppress "any insurrection." While a later bill repealed this, President Bush attached a signing statement that he did not feel bound by the repeal.
We are in a time of increasing economic disparity, with the largest gap between rich and poor of any wealthy industrialized country. We are witnessing a crackdown on dissent, most recently with $100 million spent on "security" at the Democratic and Republican national conventions. The massive paramilitary police forces deployed at the RNC in St. Paul, Minn., were complete overkill, discouraging protests and conducting mass arrests (National Guard troops just back from Fallujah were there). The arrest there of almost 50 journalists (myself included) showed a clear escalation in attempting to control the message (akin to the ban on photos of flag-draped coffins of dead soldiers). There are two ongoing, unpopular wars that are costing lives and hundreds of billions of dollars. Nobel- winning economist Joe Stiglitz estimates that Iraq alone will cost more than $3 trillion.
In December 2001, in the midst of restricted access to bank accounts due to a financial crisis, respectable, middle-class Argentinians rose up, took to the streets, smashed bank windows and ultimately forced the government out of power, despite a massive police crackdown and a failed attempt to control the media. Here in the U.S., with the prospect of a complete failure of our financial system, the people have spoken and do not want an unprecedented act of corporate welfare. We don't know how close the system is to collapse, nor do we know how close the people are to taking to the streets. The creation of an active-duty military force, the sea-smurfs, that could be used to suppress public protest here at home is a very bad sign.
Amy Goodman is the host of "Democracy Now!," a daily international TV/radio news hour. Denis Moynihan contributed to this column.
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 08:50:00 PM
Why are the only two options ignorance or fear? Couldn't we educate ourselves so we know what is going on and have some input into our destinies and those of our children?
There are not only two options, the problem is that someone only posts about it in the setting of paranoia. You have to paint this picture that because I do not see such a gloomy horizon that I am ignorant and frankly I am fed up with people like you really.
Because I see a different picture of past wars i am a nuke lover and do not care about anyone. Because I see the relationship of hard working americans and tax revenues concerning fiat money I get painted this picture that I am ignorant of the current problems.
The current problems are being addressed, it is not as if no one is trying to restructure anything, but no one who screams about all the ills of government and this issue want to try to listen and see that the housing crisis could of been avoided almost entirely had it simply kept the interest rates of those loans from going up causing most of the people who defaulted from being able to afford the note that they COULD afford when they first got the house.
So what happened was a mismanagment of interest rates and loose policies of lending sure indeed influenced it.
I am all for talking and learning, but not when all this is shrouded in the nut jobs from the religious perspective of the gloom and doom of end times, they are psychotic and spread this fear as if tomorrow the rapture will hit and they get flashbacks of watching the "Left behind" series as if there is any truth to it. what nonsense the "end times" has caused people. If thats all you can relate this too, then you really have nothing to tell or educate anyone with. period.
So yeah Molly lets actually get educated instead of talking about this NWO garbage as if our next meal is going to be behind the bars of a concentration camp after the evil congress exposes their hidden fangs.
Want me to listen, theres how ya do it.
Quote from: noname on April 02, 2009, 05:38:27 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 02, 2009, 05:16:59 PM
Quote from: noname on April 02, 2009, 03:34:31 PM
so, I'm reluctant to ask this, but what happens when America defaults and China starts calling for a payback?
in the case of a home loan from a bank....what happens when one cannot pay back your bond?
Not the same scenario in the first place.
China won't call for payback as what rational people actually see, even those in a communist nation, is that it will never be in their best interest to try to hold the US over a barrel.
be careful who you call a "communist nation"...simple equation: communism=the state owns everything...America is fast approaching that...or have you not noticed how many of your civil liberties have been taken away in the last few years and how many banks and companies have been "bailed out"...and still it is continuing under the new administration
I'm pretty sure China will call in America's debt when the time is right...
interesting that in J. Preston's paper, he stated he saw a "flood of yellow" or something like that, sweeping across the nation :dontknow:.
This isn't debt that's accrued since the founding era. And it isn't debt that's accrued since WWII. This is Bush Administration debt. We weave in and out of being a creditor/debtor nation. We were a creditor nation even within the last 30 years. Might not have lasted, but check the books on it. It happened. Probably in another 10 years we'll be a creditor nation again. We have these cycles. All nations do. In 50 years, China will probably owe us quite a bit. It happens. It's how nations have operated since the overthrow of Napolean Bonaparte. Every era previously has had a revolution over it. There have been a few revolutions in modern times. But Paul's got a point that the bigger countries are going to get through these kinds of things under all of the normal circumstances that we've had thus far, i.e. what's normal for us.
Quote from: martincisneros on April 02, 2009, 09:18:18 PM
This isn't debt that's accrued since the founding era. And it isn't debt that's accrued since WWII. This is Bush Administration debt. We weave in and out of being a creditor/debtor nation. We were a creditor nation even within the last 30 years. Might not have lasted, but check the books on it. It happened. Probably in another 10 years we'll be a creditor nation again. We have these cycles. All nations do. In 50 years, China will probably owe us quite a bit. It happens. It's how nations have operated since the overthrow of Napolean Bonaparte. Every era previously has had a revolution over it. There have been a few revolutions in modern times. But Paul's got a point that the bigger countries are going to get through these kinds of things under all of the normal circumstances that we've had thus far, i.e. what's normal for us.
And, how are we going to do that with our industrial base destroyed, as it has been in the last ten years?
All our jobs are being shipped overseas. Farmers were destroyed decades ago. Even electronics is leaving the ship.
What are we going to produce--consumers?
PS did you happen to look at our deficit for this year? It's trillions with an s.
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 09:29:01 PM
What are we going to produce--consumers?
:cloud9: I have been wondering about that. Not much left is there?
The majority of the jobs lost to overseas are the low wage, no skill jobs that wouldn't help the economy if they came back 'cause they wouldn't produce a living wage if you had 3 of them at the same time. Our deficits, whenever we have 'em, are always in the trillions 'cause we're hundreds of millions of people paying for billions of dollars worth of services each time the government decides to do something. Farmers really aren't doing too bad, with the exception of weather issues giving them a hard time in recent years.
I genuinely believe that God's favor is still on the United States and that we'll have other sources of income, other new inventions, other forms of industry and technology that we'll be leaders in, etc. There are too many signs of God's favor still on this country. You're just choking on dollar figures and legislation passed in times of war, which isn't a lot different from legislation that's been passed in previous times of global war. When we're no longer fighting with Islamic terrorists, then the laws on the books right now that are inconveniencing so many lives will be repealed as in previous decades.
Some things will be more secure than they had been, and that's for the good of all of us, really. Islam's what's going to fall, Molly. Not Christianity and not the Christian nations of the world. When it says that the Kingdoms of this world become the Kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, it's not talking about exclusively third world nations as you seem to think that this country is on the fast track towards becoming. Things will get better. God remembers the Covenant that He has with the United States. There is genuinely nothing to fear except for our own individual lack of good judgment at times when we ourselves create our own economic and health blunders.
Last I checked, the auto workers were getting the equivalent of 80 to 100K a year when you add in all the benefits, including health and pension.
I would hardly call that a low wage job.
These are not unskilled workers--they are among the last skilled workers our country has.
They can actually build things--as opposed to the bankers who are just a bunch of parasites.
Those aren't the only jobs, Molly.
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 09:29:01 PM
And, how are we going to do that with our industrial base destroyed, as it has been in the last ten years?
Not all of it, what happens is people become comfortable with the norm and as industry becomes (obsolete) new industry can be created. At one time 8 track tapes made alot of people a lot of money, so do we see that industry is destroyed because there is no market for the 8 track tape? No, there was cassettes, then CD's, laser discs, the DVD's, now Blue ray.
What we need in this country are people who are encouraging about new things. I would say, the doom sayers can be proven right, if people give up and see nothing but nothing.
Quote
All our jobs are being shipped overseas.
Again, if you wish to educate and promote ideas in your little part of the world, then stop generalizing to paint the gloom. All our jobs are not overseas. Does this mean I am ignorant now? No it means one reason I vote the way I did was to promote ideas that will keep as many jobs as possible over here. What I would rather see, and few people EVER bring this up, I would rather see the INCOME of a nation that jobs go to go up to the point that an american company has no financial incentive to send jobs over there.
What I would rather see is is AMERICANS educated and less greedy so that unions and "I have to get whats mine" mentalities are squashed so that pay levels are not extraordinarily inflated that also influences a company to look overseas if it can.
The aircraft factories over here could employ double the people with no layoffs if people became more content and saw the greater factor of more people working rather than what they can get for themselves.
It REALLY is obscene that another countries wages are so low that they can build a factory over there, SHIP goods in to another country, PAY the workers in that country, then SHIP the goods back to our country and STILL make more money than if the jobs base was here.
Quote
Farmers were destroyed decades ago.
Farming is an interest of mine because I grew up on one, that does not make me a undeniable expert, but here is another statement that is geared to cause fear. Farming is alive and well in america. It is the small family farm that struggles, but that is not entirely all there is to it.
My Dad retired from farming and the last years he was active in it he did not make very much after expenses and such, my dad was mainly a grain farmer, but it was sad that my dad did not owe one cent on the land or the property the house was on and had such financial struggles as far as the base income for that year. It was the cost ratio of fertilizer and weed killer based on the acreage he had. My Dad only had 80 acres.
Now, why did those cost get so high, it is mainly because of the costs associated with a product so highly regulated that the cost of production is extremely high. It stems from an issue that actually is lengthy to explain, but it stems again from greed and dumb people and I say that quite bluntly, dumb people who get poisoned from farm chemicals who would have gotten poisoned no matter how safe something was manufactured. All that adds to the cost.
If you have 1000 acres you can recoup the cost ratio. You have 80 acres, that alone will put a huge strain on the productivity of a farm.
Quote
Even electronics is leaving the ship.
America has never been very competative since circuitry went micro, its not really an issue to the currect problem.
Quote
What are we going to produce--consumers?
Invent something rather than complaining.
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 09:50:43 PM
Last I checked, the auto workers were getting the equivalent of 80 to 100K a year when you add in all the benefits, including health and pension.
I would hardly call that a low wage job.
These are not unskilled workers--they are among the last skilled workers our country has.
They can actually build things--as opposed to the bankers who are just a bunch of parasites.
Actually your not very well informed, a monkey can put together half the stuff on an automobile assembly line.
So now a country that used to be the breadbasket of the world is importing tainted grain from China.
We are importing our food now--does this make any sense to anyone?
Having driven farmers out of business, it is now cheaper to ship a heavy weight product like grain thousands of miles over the seas than to grow it in our own country?
That makes sense?
Sounds like a national security issue to me.
I would rather eat something produced by my own countrymen who I know would not want to poison me.
Just like I would rather drill my own oil than pay a middle man and send billions of dollars to countries who may not have my best interests at heart.
All of these things are just common sense--along with the fact that you don't destroy your middle class unless you are enamored with tyranny and monkeys.
But common sense is not very common anymore...
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 10:14:54 PM
That makes sense?
Yes actually it does if you weigh all the factors that cause it.
The point I am getting at is not that I "LIKE" it because it makes sense, it is that it makes sense that helps create a solvable problem.
What do you think those factors are?
QuoteWhat do you think those factors are?
The biggest factor, in my opinion, is that our country has been run by the very same globalists that are now calling for a new world order, at least since John Kennedy was murdered. He was our last real president.
Globalists want a central bank for the entire world. And, no nation states. And, no freedom.
End of story. Very simple.
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 10:29:13 PM
QuoteWhat do you think those factors are?
The biggest factor, in my opinion, is that our country has been run by the very same globalists that are now calling for a new world order, at least since John Kennedy was murdered. He was our last real president.
Globalists want a central bank for the entire world. And, no nation states. And, no freedom.
End of story. Very simple.
And to think I was actually willing to listen to some dialog from you. My bad.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 02, 2009, 10:36:38 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 10:29:13 PM
QuoteWhat do you think those factors are?
The biggest factor, in my opinion, is that our country has been run by the very same globalists that are now calling for a new world order, at least since John Kennedy was murdered. He was our last real president.
Globalists want a central bank for the entire world. And, no nation states. And, no freedom.
End of story. Very simple.
And to think I was actually willing to listen to some dialog from you. My bad.
Yes, in order to talk to me, you would have to actually know what a central bank is.
Oy vey! Everybody knows what a central bank is. It's the ATM that's inserted right above the naval of anyone that receives 666 in the NWO. Everybody knows that! A central bank is also a bank that deals in centrals. And centrals are things that are away from the externals. Externals are things away from the centrals. Got it? Good. Now that we've got central banks figured out, what has that got to do with God not being able to bless the work of His people's hands in the United States?
Quote from: martincisneros on April 02, 2009, 10:53:04 PM
Oy vey! Everybody knows what a central bank is. It's the ATM that's inserted right above the naval of anyone that receives 666 in the NWO.
I got one of those already , it compliments my vericon chip in my forehead.
QuoteNow that we've got central banks figured out, what has that got to do with God not being able to bless the work of His people's hands in the United States?
He could. but, I'm not sure he can as long as we are being controlled by a satanic system.
The Founding Fathers were strongly opposed to the formation of a central banking system - the fact that England tried to place the colonies under the monetary control of the Bank of England is seen by many as the 'last straw' of English oppression and that it led directly to the War of Independence.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_central_banking_in_the_United_States
14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.--Rev 12
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 11:08:40 PM
He could. but, I'm not sure he can as long as we are being controlled by a satanic system.
So satan is greater than [or equal to] God? It's genuinely all I've heard from you so far on this thread. God's going to make Israel jealous according to Romans and principalities and powers jealous in Ephesians, Hebrews, and in Peter's writings. God's going to take care of His own 'til the end of the age. No matter what! Too much blood has already been shed for Him to do otherwise. Plus, He said He would.
Quote from: martincisneros on April 02, 2009, 11:20:05 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 11:08:40 PM
He could. but, I'm not sure he can as long as we are being controlled by a satanic system.
So satan is greater than [or equal to] God? It's genuinely all I've heard from you so far on this thread. God's going to make Israel jealous according to Romans and principalities and powers jealous in Ephesians, Hebrews, and in Peter's writings. God's going to take care of His own 'til the end of the age. No matter what! Too much blood has already been shed for Him to do otherwise. Plus, He said He would.
No, satan is not greater than God--but, like you said, it's up to us. Satan is not going to stop coming at us until we resist him. But, if we've sold our souls to satan, it's kind of hard to resist him. He counts on that. It is the basis for all his successes of the last 100 years.
As long as a person sunk over their head in a religious system that is struggling to hope that only a sparse few of Gods creation can actually get above water then the problems of our nation will always be seen in the perspective of futility.
I mean really, what hope will they see there if a God (this weak and tremendously STUPID god that Christianity believes in) can't manage to over power satan.
I pity them.
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 08:11:37 AM
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on April 02, 2009, 08:05:58 AM
Molly,
In perilous times you are advising people to 'trust America's founding fathers'? We're going to be saved by fighting for our Constitution and an earthly government? I don't think so.
Jesus once said, "Do not weep for me - weep for yourselves and for your children. Do you think that was an odd thing for him to say? Why would Jesus say such a thing?
Anne
Absolutely I am. They were Christians--and they felt they were setting up God's kingdom on earth.
I have been blessed with living in the freedom they made possible--and I would wish it for all people everywhere.
Jesus was talking about 70 AD, which must have been a horrible time for all who lived through it.
There may have been a few genuine Christians in the F.F. bunch, but most were deists and/or freemasons. So at best, their loyalties were divided with respect to Christ.
Quote from: Doc on April 02, 2009, 11:39:33 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 08:11:37 AM
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on April 02, 2009, 08:05:58 AM
Molly,
In perilous times you are advising people to 'trust America's founding fathers'? We're going to be saved by fighting for our Constitution and an earthly government? I don't think so.
Jesus once said, "Do not weep for me - weep for yourselves and for your children. Do you think that was an odd thing for him to say? Why would Jesus say such a thing?
Anne
Absolutely I am. They were Christians--and they felt they were setting up God's kingdom on earth.
I have been blessed with living in the freedom they made possible--and I would wish it for all people everywhere.
Jesus was talking about 70 AD, which must have been a horrible time for all who lived through it.
There may have been a few genuine Christians in the F.F. bunch, but most were deists and/or freemasons. So at best, their loyalties were divided with respect to Christ.
That's not really true. It's a lot of rewriting of history that is not accurate by those who would like to convince us we never were a Christian nation to begin with, after all. All the major colleges at that time, known by names such as Harvard College, etc, were theological seminaries.
Christianity is very threatening to those who would like to be god themselves.
Our nation was founded as a church relocation project--the Pilgrims.
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 11:31:40 PMNo, satan is not greater than God--but, like you said, it's up to us. Satan is not going to stop coming at us until we resist him. But, if we've sold our souls to satan, it's kind of hard to resist him. He counts on that. It is the basis for all his successes of the last 100 years.
Where have you been looking for the last hundred years that all you see are Satanic successes? God's been a whole lot more busy over the last hundred years? Have you sold your soul to Satan? No? I haven't either. Neither has anyone at these boards. Satan doesn't buy souls, Molly. Jesus stripped him of all of his capital, for one thing. How do you know what Satan counts on? The Scriptures don't discuss chance on either his side or God's. The Book says that all of this belongs to Lord Jesus. Not to Satan. Satan's not governing anything since Jesus was raised from the dead. I'm not disputing that there's a lot of stupid people in charge of quite a bit and that we shouldn't underestimate the power of stupid people in really large numbers.
I'm not disputing whether or not each person has their fork in the road that they come to, as to whether they're going to obey God economically, relationally, and in the things that make for their health and peace, or whether they're going to blow off that moment of decision that He places before each of us to either have what He has for us or for "the best laid schemes o' Mice an' Men, gang aft agley, An' lea'e us nought but grief an' pain, For promis'd joy!" But Lord Jesus is prospering His world. It's never in the best interests of a King to have beggarly subjects when it's within His means to do otherwise in their behalf. Have you forgotten about the Great Commission? Have you never seen how many trillions of dollars that it'll take to fulfill it? Have you never seen how many trillions of dollars that it'll take just to avoid being judged as a goat?
Lord Jesus has our backs and it's genuinely all going to be okay!
Freemasonery in the 18th century was the RADICAL evangelical wing of the Episcopalian Church. It wasn't until around the 1820s or so that freemasonery wandered into the occult. The Founding Fathers were predominantly Christians. Even Franklin and Jefferson, although historical revisionists have tried to do a number on them.
Quoteyou forgotten about the Great Commission? Have you never seen how many trillions of dollars that it'll take to fulfill it? Have you never seen how many trillions of dollars that it'll take just to avoid being judged as a goat?
Not sure what you mean by this. Could you explain?
As far as I'm concerned, everything that is important, everything we could ever want, is really free, if we just take out the parasitical, satanic middlemen.
I doubt the beliefs of the founding fathers are much of anything close to what evil is in modern Christianity.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 02, 2009, 11:51:40 PM
I doubt the beliefs of the founding fathers are much of anything close to what evil is in modern Christianity.
They were very evangelical, the founders of Bible societies in their respective states, and they passed legislation to pay for Bibles being imported, etc., etc., etc. The first session of the U.S. Supreme Court began with a 4hr communion service. Etc. This country was birthed out of the Great Awakening, including it's colleges at the time. You couldn't even get into college at the time unless you were at public prayer morning and evening, and I'm thinking at lunch time too, but need to double check that. Entrance exam among other things, was to take the Greek New Testament and translate it into English. The founding era was still enormously Puritan.
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 11:42:35 PM
Quote from: Doc on April 02, 2009, 11:39:33 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 08:11:37 AM
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on April 02, 2009, 08:05:58 AM
Molly,
In perilous times you are advising people to 'trust America's founding fathers'? We're going to be saved by fighting for our Constitution and an earthly government? I don't think so.
Jesus once said, "Do not weep for me - weep for yourselves and for your children. Do you think that was an odd thing for him to say? Why would Jesus say such a thing?
Anne
Absolutely I am. They were Christians--and they felt they were setting up God's kingdom on earth.
I have been blessed with living in the freedom they made possible--and I would wish it for all people everywhere.
Jesus was talking about 70 AD, which must have been a horrible time for all who lived through it.
There may have been a few genuine Christians in the F.F. bunch, but most were deists and/or freemasons. So at best, their loyalties were divided with respect to Christ.
That's not really true. It's a lot of rewriting of history that is not accurate by those who would like to convince us we never were a Christian nation to begin with, after all. All the major colleges at that time, known by names such as Harvard College, etc, were theological seminaries.
Christianity is very threatening to those who would like to be god themselves.
Our nation was founded as a church relocation project--the Pilgrims.
So all the occult symbolism in the nation's capital came later then?
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 11:49:45 PM
Quoteyou forgotten about the Great Commission? Have you never seen how many trillions of dollars that it'll take to fulfill it? Have you never seen how many trillions of dollars that it'll take just to avoid being judged as a goat?
Not sure what you mean by this. Could you explain?
As far as I'm concerned, everything that is important, everything we could ever want, is really free, if we just take out the parasitical, satanic middlemen.
It's free, but it's not cheap. The Great Commission is still a "go into all the world" commission. Visiting prisoners, distributing to the poor the food and clothes they need, etc., it takes money, Molly. It takes money to share the Word and to distribute Bibles and Bible study materials with 10 billion people on the planet in their languages. It takes money to lay hands on all of the sick of the world and receive their healing in the Name of Jesus. It takes money to be able to cast out all of the demons out of all of the demonized people in the world. You've got to be able to get to them, and travel and hotel accomodations are seldom all you need. Sometimes you need money just to be able to access who you need to access.
Quote from: docSo all the occult symbolism in the nation's capital came later then?
Good question. You'd have to take it on a case by case basis, I guess. And, wonder, did people even know what they were doing at the time?
The Washington Monument is a large, tall, sand-colored obelisk near the west end of the National Mall in Washington, D.C. It is a United States Presidential Memorial constructed to commemorate the first U.S. president, George Washington. The monument, made of marble, granite, and sandstone, is both the world's tallest stone structure and the world's tallest obelisk,[n 1] standing 555 feet 5⅛ inches (169.294 m) in height.[n 2] It is also the tallest structure in Washington D.C. It was designed by Robert Mills, an architect of the 1840s. The actual construction of the monument began in 1848 but was not completed until
1884, almost 30 years after the architect's death.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Monument
Quote from: Doc on April 03, 2009, 12:02:28 AM
So all the occult symbolism in the nation's capital came later then?
All Christian symbolism. Shows how badly the historical revisionists have done a number on people. There's over 50 depictions of the 10 commandments in the Supreme Court building. The Washington Monument has Scriptures going all of the way up it. There's no occultic symbolism on any national treasure. The pyramid on the back of the dollar bill is about immortality and trinitarianism rather than any kind of occultic symbol. At the time that it was chosen as one of our symbols, it was one of the few symbols available of endurance through the ages. The so-called "all seeing eye" is a Christian symbol as well. The Masons didn't have any such symbol at the time. But even if they had, they were Christians back then.
I believe that David Barton has a book available on Freemasonry and the Founding Fathers at http://www.wallbuilders.com/store/product0.html (http://www.wallbuilders.com/store/product0.html) He's also got a fabulous book on African American history showing that we had court judges in the U.S. in the 1700s that were African American. He also documents how a preacher or two that had bigger crowds than Whittfield and Edwards during the Great Awakening that were of African descent. http://www.wallbuilders.com/store/product3.html (http://www.wallbuilders.com/store/product3.html) There's a lot of history that's just ignored these days. History's just one of those subjects where there's too much info for any one person to digest, so I'm not sure how much of it is really ignored as it is overlooked. Some of it is blatantly overlooked, but the rest of it is just that there's soooo many details and few of us will ever read more than a couple hundred thousand pages of it.
Quote from: martincisneros on April 02, 2009, 11:55:50 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 02, 2009, 11:51:40 PM
I doubt the beliefs of the founding fathers are much of anything close to what evil is in modern Christianity.
They were very evangelical, the founders of Bible societies in their respective states, and they passed legislation to pay for Bibles being imported, etc., etc., etc. The first session of the U.S. Supreme Court began with a 4hr communion service. Etc. This country was birthed out of the Great Awakening, including it's colleges at the time. You couldn't even get into college at the time unless you were at public prayer morning and evening, and I'm thinking at lunch time too, but need to double check that. Entrance exam among other things, was to take the Greek New Testament and translate it into English. The founding era was still enormously Puritan.
One of them was a unitarian and nowdays they are damned to hell by evangelicals.
Again, Unitarian back then was different from Unitarian today. Jefferson did have questions about the divinity of Jesus Christ and got into some heated debates with Benjamin Rush about it. Dr Rush finally had to just leave it alone if he was going to have the friendship. Unitarian back then was still a Christian denomination.
Don't think I was very clear a couple of posts ago. I believe it was the pyramid that the masons didn't have as a symbol back then because of the trinity issue.
Quote from: martincisneros on April 03, 2009, 12:24:13 AM
Again, Unitarian back then was different from Unitarian today. Jefferson did have questions about the divinity of Jesus Christ and got into some heated debates with Benjamin Rush about it. Dr Rush finally had to just leave it alone if he was going to have the friendship. Unitarian back then was still a Christian denomination.
Well, my point is that Christianity has moved apart from anything unitarian stands for in the first place, then or now.
Quote from: martincisneros on April 03, 2009, 12:17:20 AM
Quote from: Doc on April 03, 2009, 12:02:28 AM
So all the occult symbolism in the nation's capital came later then?
All Christian symbolism. Shows how badly the historical revisionists have done a number on people. There's over 50 depictions of the 10 commandments in the Supreme Court building. The Washington Monument has Scriptures going all of the way up it. There's no occultic symbolism on any national treasure. The pyramid on the back of the dollar bill is about immortality and trinitarianism rather than any kind of occultic symbol. At the time that it was chosen as one of our symbols, it was one of the few symbols available of endurance through the ages. The so-called "all seeing eye" is a Christian symbol as well. The Masons didn't have any such symbol at the time. But even if they had, they were Christians back then.
I believe that David Barton has a book available on Freemasonry and the Founding Fathers at http://www.wallbuilders.com/store/product0.html (http://www.wallbuilders.com/store/product0.html) He's also got a fabulous book on African American history showing that we had court judges in the U.S. in the 1700s that were African American. He also documents how a preacher or two that had bigger crowds than Whittfield and Edwards during the Great Awakening that were of African descent. http://www.wallbuilders.com/store/product3.html (http://www.wallbuilders.com/store/product3.html) There's a lot of history that's just ignored these days. History's just one of those subjects where there's too much info for any one person to digest, so I'm not sure how much of it is really ignored as it is overlooked. Some of it is blatantly overlooked, but the rest of it is just that there's soooo many details and few of us will ever read more than a couple hundred thousand pages of it.
Well, interesting. I was suspicious at one point when the star of David showed up on an occult symbol list. I suppose it's kind of like the Nazi's "borrowing" the Japanese symbol of peace and turning it into a symbol of hate (the swastika).
a little off thread, but just a matter of interest
Prime Minister Kevin Rudd - Australia Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks....
once the 666 come out and force everyone to take it, there going to be:
Rejection-If your mom, dad, wife, friend is consider taking 666 because they need to feed their's family with food, without money, it impossible, so you told the entire family not to take it, or you will be punish by God and reject you and cast you in the lake of fire! there going to be a arguing in the church whatever the 666 is okay or not, just like in the 1970's when the first SS numer and checks, people go "AH-AHHH!!! That the mark of the beast!" so the church at that time said "It okay! as long it not on our body!" But right now, the real reason why 666 is nesscessary for the entire world to have is this:
666 will not lose money, no despression ever, no recession, no losing money, easy tranfer money, no more killing the tree for taking care of earth "the green people", just like that ads tv "e-nsurine" the pink hair woman cartoon and some people turning into a cartoon telling people the same "saving more tree, no more paper"
so rejection? YES! we will have suffer, sorrow and saddness because your wife might leave you and join the 666 and you? Off your head somewhere in secret milirty base that have gulltiline (those sharp drooping killer to cut your head off, fastest killing, dropping head in the huge dumpster and burn them day and night, line up who refuse the 666 because of fear of God's wrath if they take the 666) Your mom might take it, maybe lucky your wife or husband won't take it, but you won't hold her\his hand in line to join death row, you will be seperate and cannot find her until your eye twinkling like a fast bird woke up and heard Jesus's voice "rest!"
666 is going to cause the major change, no doubt, I won't take it but the blade of that gullitine might fall on me and kill me and painful but nothing more PAINFUL is losing your family to some wacko 666, that's is the most painful than that blade going to cut me, because losing your love ones is like a real grim reaper throwing a sharp soulblade to cut my soul in half and it REAL HURT!
lol I meant Jesus said RISE!
:cloud9: Well, I say good for the Australians. If they want to live under Islamic law they have a wide variety of countries they can choose from to do just that. France is ruing the day they thought it was a good idea to let them in large numbers, as they have one and only one agenda. They are predicted to be the ruling majority in only 40 years at present rates of growth. Norway is also falling under their weight as we speak.
I feel sympathy and compassion for the people in that abomination, but don't feel that anyone should close their eyes and pretend it's all going to be alright if they continue in that abomination. Blessings...
:thumbsup: Card.
God has gently been impressing upon me since posting the J. Preston Eby article last night, that as someone else earlier said, being in the ark of protection is being in Jesus...and to be in Him is actually pretty simple. Those who believe on Him/trust in Him to be their righteousness...scripture says "call upon the name of the Lord, and you shall be saved...believe upon Him, and you and your household shall be saved"...He has gently assured me that included my family, as thanks be to God, we are in Him, by trusting in His work...HE assures protection and overcoming...Looking to Him, the Author and Finisher of our salvation...in these troubled times and as He brings His own out the other side of this, we may begin to realize even more fully what His salvation brings. Praise Yesu.
Quote from: jabcat on April 03, 2009, 02:15:39 AM
:thumbsup: Card.
God has gently been impressing upon me since posting the J. Preston Eby article last night, that as someone else earlier said, being in the ark of protection is being in Jesus...and to be in Him is actually pretty simple. Those who believe on Him/trust in Him to be their righteousness...scripture says "call upon the name of the Lord, and you shall be saved...believe upon Him, and you and your household shall be saved"...He has gently assured me that included my family, as thanks be to God, we are in Him, by trusting in His work...HE assures protection and overcoming...Looking to Him, the Author and Finisher of our salvation...in these troubled times and as He brings His own out the other side of this, we may begin to realize even more fully what His salvation brings. Praise Yesu.
umm maybe jesus isn't taking about your family because the word "household" maybea nother word for body parts.
My household has each individually trusted in Jesus as Savior, thanks be to God for revealing Himself to them, giving to them His faith to believe. So He has done exactly what that scripture says wrt the household. Not saying there aren't layers of meaning(s).
Paul also talks about a believing spouse sanctifying the unbelieving, "else your children would be unclean". Again, not saying there aren't layers of meaning/understanding.
Anne Hamon, I would never turn away from "you".........just because
I got weary listening to the news. Forgive me if I offended you.
You sure misunderstood me dearheart!
Looks like a long conversation ensued following my post. ha
Quote from: Redlettervoice on April 03, 2009, 02:48:24 AM
Anne Hamon, I would never turn away from "you".........just because
I got weary listening to the news. Forgive me if I offended you.
You sure misunderstood me dearheart!
Looks like a long conversation ensued following my post. ha
Carlene -
My comment was not made toward you. I know you wouldn't. I think it was Martin who quoted a scripture (out of context, IMO) about turning away from certain people who believe in certain things. I never for a moment thought you would. I think there are some things you just can't discuss in a group. Apparently this is one of them.
It has wandered a lot from my initial question about what people think the meaning of New World Order is. I'm going to re -do Andrew's bedroom tonight - our whole family is going to work on it together :-)
love,
Anne
Quote
That's not really true. It's a lot of rewriting of history that is not accurate by those who would like to convince us we never were a Christian nation to begin with, after all. All the major colleges at that time, known by names such as Harvard College, etc, were theological seminaries.
Christianity is very threatening to those who would like to be god themselves.
Our nation was founded as a church relocation project--the Pilgrims.
Too bad they didn't treat the native American better for Christ's sake! The Puritans burnt children and women suspected of witchcraft too. Ah, the good ol' days of our forefathers!
Men came here from Europe to get away from King George and his power to tax them and be a type of dictator.
Anne
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on April 03, 2009, 03:13:33 AM
Quote
That's not really true. It's a lot of rewriting of history that is not accurate by those who would like to convince us we never were a Christian nation to begin with, after all. All the major colleges at that time, known by names such as Harvard College, etc, were theological seminaries.
Christianity is very threatening to those who would like to be god themselves.
Our nation was founded as a church relocation project--the Pilgrims.
Too bad they didn't treat the native American better for Christ's sake!
For REAL!!!!!!
Political, Economical and Religious models patterned after ancient societies?
"Common sense died, but the majority did not attend the funeral."
peacemaker
Obama hails the new world order
Last night British ministers said the real significance of yesterday's agreement was not the $1trn package but the enhanced role it gave to world institutions like the IMF, whose budget will triple to $750bn. "A new world financial order has been born, almost by accident, because of this crisis," one cabinet minister said. "These bodies have been revamped; now they need to raise their game."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/obama-hails-the-new-world-order-1661088.html
A new world order created by accident! :mshock:
I hate when that happens!
the world stubbed its toe? :laughing7: Oh, OK. Blind as bats...
I personally think a New World Order can be a very positive thing, because for one thing, the Old World Order didn't amount to much. I'm not saying that the ultimate and best won't come through Jesus Christ. There's absolutely no questions in my mind about that. But as a precursor to what the Body of Christ will do in this world when such a generation comes along that really wants to do all that Jesus said to do along those lines, it's a good John the Baptist about better days being down the road. I can't get into gloom about progress for everyone, I'm sorry. There's no question about the possibilities of deception in it if you get sidetracked from the Word of God, but that's been the same case with the Old World Order, so what's the difference?
In the meantime, more mouths are fed, more diseases are tackled, and more acts of terrorism are squashed in the craddle. Nobody with a sound mind that's come from the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit would imply that man's reattempts at Babel are the ultimate of God's intent for this world and for this life. But while the Body of Christ is asleep at the wheel thinking that Christ is coming to deliver us from responsibility to our world, at least someone is doing something. Things need to be done. It's abundantly clear that the old order is on it's deathbed. It is never God's will for the world to go to Hell. Never. That gets into this issue that many Universalists have an issue with anyway about the innocent suffering with/for/because of the wicked.
Christ Jesus has already done all that would ever need to be done along those lines. There is no virtue in a single instance of human suffering. People can learn that way if they just won't learn any other way with the Scriptures, but it's the furthest from God's best. God's best is for all of the lessons to come through the Written Word (Joshua 1:8; John 15:7) To me, this gets into the very argument that some people have tried to get into with me about God having created doctors. Well, duh! God created the nations according to Acts 17. So, same exact logic! It's the exact same thing. You can't get away from it. God doesn't damn man's attempts at making this a better world and that's what'll come out of this to a very, very limited degree until the Body of Christ finally gets it's rear in gear and takes this whole thing over!
Good points, Martin (not sure about the NWO one :happy3:...you may see it more clearly than I). I DO BELIEVE God wins, the cross of Jesus is victorious. We MAY be going into a deeper mess for awhile (to my eye it appears that way) but whatever happens, God's going to fix it, His judgments bring in righteousness, and the end of the Lord is full of mercy. We don't have to live in fear...if God be for us, who can be against us?
And Raggedy Anne, I meant no personal attacks in anything that I've said. I'm deeply sorry if anything that I've said has come across that way. I've just become very passionate about reclaiming a world that even with my first few years in UR that I was way too ready to damn to Hell until Christ Jesus got in my face and changed my mind.
well done Molly! you tried... :thumbsup:
"ignorance is bliss" rockabye baby...
@Anne
get yourself and family to be as self-sustaining and interdependant of the "system" or "the grid" as soon as you can...Mystery Babylon is falling
Revelation 18:1-3 (New International Version)
1After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven. He had great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his splendor. 2With a mighty voice he shouted:
"Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!
She has become a home for demons
and a haunt for every evil[a] spirit,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird.
3For all the nations have drunk
the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries."
The Dark Side of Globalization. The Vicious Cycle of Exploitation from World Market Integration: Lesson from the Congo
Abstract
The Congo region is one of the best examples of the negative consequences of world market integration (and hence globalization) in the world. Today's Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC) is an almost "perfectly" failing state – although not necessarily with respect to a state's function as a revenue machine for its rulers, but definitely with respect to almost all other state functions, including the most basic ones, like security or infrastructure provision for its people. However, the recent civil war was only the tip of an iceberg of a well-established system of structural violence, which is neither simply a result of post-colonial nor colonial heritage. Remarkably stable, it dates back to the very beginning of the integration of the Congo into the global economy. Since the first contact with Europeans, it has experienced a vicious cycle of exploitation that promotes violence and is driven by internal power relations but even more so by world market demands. While the object of these demands (slaves, ivory, rubber, copper, diamonds, coltan) changed over the centuries and decades, the structures of dependence and the patterns of exploitation did not change fundamentally. Hence, every effort to sustainably improve the economic, social and political conditions in the Congo, which are among the most devastating in the world, must take this heritage into account.
http://ideas.repec.org/p/inn/wpaper/2007-31.html
How the IMF Contributes to Rising TB Rates
The Scourge of the IMF
By ROBERT WEISSMAN
Tuberculosis, a treatable disease, kills 1.7 million people a year worldwide.
TB incidence, according to the World Health Organization seems to be correlated to broad social factors, like access to clean water and sanitation, HIV incidence and national health expenditures.
A just published study in the journal PLoS (Public Library of Science) Medicine investigates the role of different possible explanatory factor: the International Monetary Fund (IMF). The researchers' study focuses on the period 1991 to 2003 for the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, a region for which there is robust data.
The results: The researchers concluded "that IMF economic reform programs are strongly associated with rises in tuberculosis mortality rates in post-communist Eastern European and FSU [former Soviet Union] countries, even after correcting for potential selection bias, tuberculosis surveillance infrastructure, levels of economic development, urbanization, and HIV/AIDS."
"We estimated an increase in tuberculosis mortality rates when countries participate in an IMF program, which was much greater than the reduction that would have been expected had the countries not participated in an IMF program. On the other hand, we estimated a decrease in tuberculosis mortality rates associated with exiting an IMF program."
In other words: When countries entered IMF programs, TB rates went up. When the programs ended and countries escaped from IMF influence, TB rates went down.
OK, but the region was in chaos after the fall of the Soviet Union. Economies crashed and per capita income plummeted. Crime rose, incarceration rates jumped, HIV spread. Aren't these the real factors behind rising TB rates?
Explains Sanjay Basu of Yale University, one of the study authors: "First of all, not all of these countries in this region were dependent on the former Soviet Union. Many of them actually had an increase in GDP after the fall of the former Soviet Union. Several were not part of the trading bloc. And in some of the key countries where TB rates rose, we actually saw an increase in economic growth. So economic downturns could not explain, as the WHO itself has stated, the trends of tuberculosis in that regions. Something else was going on."
"The reason we use such heavy statistics is precisely to factor in these other issues -- incarceration, HIV, changes to the economy, changes to the healthcare infrastructure. We found a statistically independent effect of the IMF. That's not to say that the IMF was the only cause of TB in this region. The economy, incarceration, HIV -- these are all very important, but those factors could not fully explain TB in the region."
The PLoS study found that participating in an IMF program correlated with increases in tuberculosis incidence of 13.9 percent and an increase in TB mortality rates of 16.6 percent. Basu says that, if the study results are valid, they suggest "we would have averted tens of thousands of deaths and hundreds of thousands of new cases" if countries in the region had never entered IMF programs.
The theory of the study authors is that IMF programs drive down healthcare spending, and this reduced investment in healthcare explains the rise in TB incidence and death. Basu emphasizes, correctly, that the issue is not so much the IMF directing countries to spend less on health. Rather, it imposes a set of policy constraints -- including overall limits on government spending, and needlessly low inflation targets -- that inevitably result in countries spending less on health.
There are always variations between regions, but there is nothing about the PLoS researchers' story that suggests things are any different in Africa, the region where the IMF now exerts the most influence.
http://www.counterpunch.org/weissman07262008.html
Babylon isn't fallen, Noname.
She's just getting warmed up.
Who knows what the IMF is and what they do?
Answer: Nobody.
The International Monetary Fund (IMF) is an international organization that oversees the global financial system by following the macroeconomic policies of its member countries, in particular those with an impact on exchange rates and the balance of payments. It is an organization formed to stabilize international exchange rates and facilitate development.[2] It also offers financial and technical assistance to its members, making it an international lender of last resort. Its headquarters are located in Washington, D.C., USA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Monetary_Fund
right, it's basically a bank
The current managing director of the IMF:
Dominique Strauss-Kahn
Dominique Strauss-Kahn, often referred to as DSK, (born 25 April 1949 in Neuilly-sur-Seine) is a French economist, lawyer, and politician, member of the Socialist Party (PS). He was selected as the new Managing Director of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) on 28 September 2007.
A former Finance and Economy Minister in Lionel Jospin's "Plural Left" government, he belongs to the center-left wing of the PS. He sought the nomination in the primaries to the Socialist presidential candidacy for the 2007 election but was defeated by Ségolène Royal in November 2006.
DSK was also a Professor at the National Administration School (ENA), at the Paris Institute for Political Studies ("Sciences Po") and the HEC School of Management.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominique_Strauss-Kahn
"The phrase 'new world order' traces back at least as far as 1940, when author H.G. Wells used it as the title of a book about a socialist, unified, one-world government."
Makes sense that their healthcare would have gone down, because member countries only tap into that resource when they're financially in the red. When you're not making your budget, most people, including governments, aren't thinking about health insurance. That's what those stats mean. That's all that means. They were financially in the red, they stopped paying for healthcare, but they did receive aide from IMF.
Those are individual government decisions and not the policy of IMF. It's how the governments decided to spend the loans, or how thin the loans were to where they couldn't pay for anything beyond salaries since most governments are over inflated with employees.
Plunder and Profit
The IMF and WorId Bank continue to push privatization,
in spite of its massive failures.
by David Moberg
In These Times magazine, March 2004
In September 1999, Bolivian officials signed a 40-year contract with a private company named Aguas del Tunari to take over the municipal water system of Cochabamba, the country's third largest city. The company, largely owned by U.S. construction giant Bechtel, was the sole bidder for the contract, which guaranteed 15 percent annual profit in inflation-indexed dollars.
With the encouragement of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the World Bank, since 1985 Bolivian governments have sold national public assets to foreign investors and opened their markets to global trade. Despite the promise of development by following the "Washington consensus" of economic liberalization, it remained the poorest country in Latin America. But World Bank officials still insisted that Bolivia privatize Cochabamba's water utility and that residents, no matter how poor, pay full cost of the service without subsidy.
Two months after Bechtel's subsidiary took over, it roughly tripled local water rates, telling the poor they could pay one-fourth of their income for water or have the spigot shut o£ There were massive protests for several months until the contract was cancelled.
But a few months after signing the contract, Bechtel surreptitiously added new investors and reincorporated its subsidiary in the Netherlands. When it lost the contract, Bechtel sued Bolivia-under terms of a bilateral investment treaty between Bolivia and Netherlands-for damages of at least $25 million for loss of profits it might have made, even though it had invested less than $1 million. Last month, the Bolivian government argued in secret hearings before an investment tribunal affiliated with the World Bank that the treaty doesn't apply, partly because Dutch nationals never controlled Aguas del Tunari.
Cochabamba remains a celebrated battle ground in the intensifying worldwide dispute over the privatization of public services, from water and electrical utilities to education, healthcare and pensions. Its ongoing legal struggle reflects the ways in which poor countries often are pressured to privatize a wide range of public assets and services, and then locked into failed policies by international trade agreements.
Free Market Faith
Rich countries-working through international institutions like the World Bank-rarely help poor countries modernize and strengthen public services. But they often push them to privatize and commercialize public services, a move that they themselves would never make. Leading the tide of globalization, international financial institutions are aggressively and undemocratically promoting an ideological agenda of privatization and commercialization.
"The IMF, the World Bank and the World Trade Organization care about dismantling the state,' says Nancy Alexander, director of the Citizens' Network on Essential Services (CNES), a research and advocacy group. "They're faith-based organizations. They don't care who dismantles the state"
International financial institutions claim that such reforms help reduce poverty, but they often simply are. promoting the interests of multinational corporations in water, energy, telecommunications and other industries. Multinational corporate investment in privatization peaked in the late '90s, and many firms have since pulled back in response to protests or financial difficulties. So the World Bank, IMF and related institutions are increasingly offering financial aid, subsidies and guarantees to private multinationals to induce them to privatize.
"In the end, it's not an argument about economics. That's not the bottom line,' says Doug Hellinger, executive director of the Development Group on Alternative Policies, which is critical of the IMF and World Bank. "It's ideological, but it's also about giving access to companies on terrific terms. It's really about the IMF representing its northern countries and their corporations"
The World Bank theoretically acknowledges a role for the public sector, but in practice it has pushed privatization since the mid-'80s. This year's budget for water privatization, for example, is triple last year's, and over the past decade the portion of the bank's lending for water projects tied to privatization soared. In 2002 it adopted a strategy that emphasized development led by private corporations, and it works closely with the WTO to impose on poor countries the kinds of pro-corporate policies other countries have the freedom to negotiate.
Indirect Pressure
When countries suffer from financial crises or crippling debt, the IMF and World Bank often insist on privatization of state-owned enterprises, utilities and social services as a condition for financial help. But sometimes, Alexander explains, they push privatization indirectly. For example, they typically require cuts in government budgets, public services and aid to localities. They press for decentralization of public services, dismantling of utilities into smaller units, assessment of market prices for services and elimination of cross-subsidies that may reduce costs for the poor. Financially squeezed by these policies, municipalities may be tempted to privatize the decentralized services. The multinationals then cherry pick the most profitable pieces serving more affluent urban areas, leaving the government responsible for poor and unprofitable rural areas or urban shantytowns.
While some public services in developing countries work well, others are deeply flawed. But as CNES economist Tim Kessler argues, the World Bank acts as if the only alternative is privatization, not improving public services with outside financial and technical aid and with greater citizen accountability. In any case, privatized utilities need strong public regulation, which is difficult and expensive to do well. Paradoxically, weak and corrupt governments, whose public services could most benefit from reform, are least able to regulate privatized systems. Often they sell public goods on the cheap to cronies and patrons, making privatization really "briberization," says former World Bank chief economist Joseph Stiglitz.
Management Matters
Advocates argue that privatization increases efficiency and investment, fosters competition, shrinks deficits and improves services. There are many instances, such as in Chile, where privatized public enterprises increased efficiency and improved service. But in developed countries public utilities generally are as efficient as or better than private.
In developing countries, there also are countless horror stories of price gouging, poor service, meager investment and discrimination against the poor from every continent and in every arena of privatization. For example, Suez, one of two multinationals controlling at least 7o percent of the world's private water contracts, recently lost or abandoned water operations in Argentina, Philippines and Puerto Rico once hailed as model successes. A newly released study by a network of citizens groups that collaborated with the World Bank, Structural Adjustment: The SAPRI Report," concluded that privatization did not accelerate growth and the form of ownership did not determine efficiency of services as much as management policy.
Despite the failures of privatization, the World Bank and IMF have not shifted their focus to strengthening and democratizing public services. Instead, they are increasing funding to subsidize, to commercially guarantee and to promote privatization (as head of an expert panel on water infrastructure sponsored by the World Bank and multinational water companies). Former IMF managing director Michel Camdessus who recommended last year that there should be more subsidies and guarantees for water privatizers and that the bank should deal more with state and local governments (which typically are less savvy in negotiating with giant multinationals than national governments).
At the WTO, the richer countries want to include more services under the General Agreement on Trade in Services (GATS), potentially opening historically public functions to competition that would benefit multinational service corporations and would indirectly privatize. Once a service is opened under GATS, countries cannot reverse course-for example, make healthcare an exclusively public service-without paying every country that claims it lost a trade opportunity GATS rules also would severely restrict domestic regulation of service industries.
If the rich countries, along with the World Bank, IMF and WTO, persist in their current privatizing strategies, Cochabamba may turn out to have been an early skirmish in a much wider war.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/IMF_WB/Plunder_Profit_IMF_WB.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just gets back to what I've been saying about the Body of Christ's responsibility to take over and start running these things, and to be the ones that are funding all of the countries of the world when they're in these tight spots. Isaiah 61:6 says that we're supposed to be boasting ourselves in the riches of the nations.
Quote from: martincisneros on April 03, 2009, 04:49:42 PM
Makes sense that their healthcare would have gone down, because member countries only tap into that resource when they're financially in the red. When you're not making your budget, most people, including governments, aren't thinking about health insurance. That's what those stats mean. That's all that means. They were financially in the red, they stopped paying for healthcare, but they did receive aide from IMF.
Not true, Martin. The Yale researchers factored all of that into their study. What they found is--a positive correlation between IMF countries and TB because the IMF forced countries to cut back on their health budgets as part of the program. That's what the article says.
Quote from: martincisneros on April 03, 2009, 04:56:00 PM
Just gets back to what I've been saying about the Body of Christ's responsibility to take over and start running these things, and to be the ones that are funding all of the countries of the world when they're in these tight spots. Isaiah 61:6 says that we're supposed to be boasting ourselves in the riches of the nations.
Martin, these people are ideologues with an agenda.
You think they will accept your resume for managing director?
I'd love to see you take over these organizations--but how?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 03, 2009, 04:57:06 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 03, 2009, 04:39:33 PM
Answer: Nobody.
A lie.
Oh good. Then you can tell us all about the IMF and Argentina and Brazil and save me a lot of trouble and effort.
Quote from: Molly on April 03, 2009, 05:06:01 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 03, 2009, 04:57:06 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 03, 2009, 04:39:33 PM
Answer: Nobody.
A lie.
Oh good. Then you can tell us all about the IMF and Argentina and Brazil and save me a lot of trouble and effort.
Awesome,. here we go.
The IMF membership is voluntary, so it still goes back to the countries government finding it appealing to their own sake to be a member.
Health care is not seen as an economic issue since it is usually based on that a country is courrently producing so any aid must be seen with in a range of return projections.
I am NOT defending the IMF I am pointing out that the problem stems on a different level.
There is division in the united states over humanitarian aid to a country simply because once we release funds then the control we have over how it gets distributed.
Then there are those that do not want our military presence in a country because of various reasons. People want to help, many americans do not like 3rd world starvation, economic depression in another country.
But, there is only so much we can do. We hear that the citizens should rise up and take their own nations back. Yet, look at the nature in which they try to do that, Rwanda is a great example of a country who's rebels apart from the government did not move to over throw the government for the sake of the people, they slaughtered a weaker sect.
So then as our politically correct systen wants us to stay out of other countries affairs, why is it a surprise that the IMF now has its fingers in those countries that need to be educated that they are enslaved by two fronts. they are enslaved by the government who cannot control the rebels, and the rebels see that they have to gain numbers by enslaving a weaker sect of the country.
It's not pretty and if america actually has any responsibility to solving these physical problems, what the critics will have to come to terms with is that no reform, even the changes you want in our own country, if they are that important to you, will not come about with out bloodshed.
If we want the IMF out of the way then we will have to find a way to boost the economics of a country and eliminate the parasites there waiting to take ever dollar away from where it is supposed to go.
Quote from: Molly on April 03, 2009, 05:00:27 PM
Martin, these people are ideologues with an agenda.
You think they will accept your resume for managing director?
I'd love to see you take over these organizations--but how?
Yeah, well, they're not the only ones that are ideologues. I haven't submitted my resume for that 'cause finance isn't my gifting. If I'd been President of the United States, instead of doing what Obama's been doing for the last year as Senator/President, I'd of personally just given everybody in the U.S. about a hundred thousand dollars [tax free] and made it the vote of the people as far as whether or not the auto industry made it or whether people paid for a college education, got rid of debt, paid down their house, went nuts on a luxury vacation or new furniture, got badly needed healthcare, got badly needed medical insurance, etc. That's around 30 trillion dollars. More than Obama will probably ever spend, but at the same time, the economy would have gone nuts with that and any risks of inflation or deflation from doing that would have likely been minimal 'cause few folks were going to put that entire amount into their 401(K) and then convert their 401(K) into a rollover IRA. Small business owners would have likely pumped at least half of that into being a little bolder with doing what they need to do, and the following three to six years would have likely gotten everything back in tax dollars or more 'cause of the number of people that would have done something to have made more money with that. Makes more sense to me to do it that way. That's why I'm not President. That, and I'm not old enough yet.
Quote from: martincisneros on April 03, 2009, 04:56:00 PM
Just gets back to what I've been saying about the Body of Christ's responsibility to take over and start running these things, and to be the ones that are funding all of the countries of the world when they're in these tight spots. Isaiah 61:6 says that we're supposed to be boasting ourselves in the riches of the nations.
Martin, care to lay out a plan, then? :Sparkletooth:
:cloud9: I've been saying the same thing Martin. If everyone had been given that money, a lot of people could have paid off their mortgages, thus freeing up more finances to spend elsewhere and I think the economy would have been stimulated by that, NOT by giving the money to the greedy jerks who got us into this mess in the first place. Blessings....
Quote from: sparrow on April 03, 2009, 05:54:37 PM
Martin, care to lay out a plan, then? :Sparkletooth:
It's all I've ever done in everything I've ever written. Nothing I've ever written -- ever -- in any context -- has been about self indulgent luxury. It's always been a call and spiritual methodology towards this.
Quote from: Cardinal on April 03, 2009, 06:04:59 PM
:cloud9: I've been saying the same thing Martin. If everyone had been given that money, a lot of people could have paid off their mortgages, thus freeing up more finances to spend elsewhere and I think the economy would have been stimulated by that, NOT by giving the money to the greedy jerks who got us into this mess in the first place. Blessings....
Give the money to the people but force them to spend it 100% on the mortgage.
Then the people would be out of debt and the banks would also have their money.
That way both would have gotten some benefit from the bailout.
Now the banks have the money and can cash in the mortages.
Quote from: martincisneros on April 03, 2009, 06:19:10 PM
Quote from: sparrow on April 03, 2009, 05:54:37 PM
Martin, care to lay out a plan, then? :Sparkletooth:
It's all I've ever done in everything I've ever written. Nothing I've ever written -- ever -- in any context -- has been about self indulgent luxury. It's always been a call and spiritual methodology towards this.
I think the problem is that Christians have been taught to be passive and reactive. They respond to a crisis with whatever help they can muster.
Whereas, satan's minions are pro-active. They have a plan for world domination. And, they plod away at it year by year until the day when--oops--we just trip and fall into a new world order. Their job is to set things up so that people will beg for whatever nonsense they have engineered us to beg for.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 03, 2009, 06:28:13 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on April 03, 2009, 06:04:59 PM
:cloud9: I've been saying the same thing Martin. If everyone had been given that money, a lot of people could have paid off their mortgages, thus freeing up more finances to spend elsewhere and I think the economy would have been stimulated by that, NOT by giving the money to the greedy jerks who got us into this mess in the first place. Blessings....
Give the money to the people but force them to spend it 100% on the mortgage.
Then the people would be out of debt and the banks would also have their money.
That way both would have gotten some benefit from the bailout.
Now the banks have the money and can cash in the mortages.
um...they don't want the people out ofdebt. Ever consider that? Nor do they want people owning private property. The middle class is the biggest threat to world domination that exists, aside from our Constitution.
Surely I've concidered that. They want more debt. The bigger the debt the more they own.
Your constitution is a zero threat. It gets bypassed is all kind of ways. Some live under the law. Some above...
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 03, 2009, 06:47:42 PM
Surely I've concidered that. They want more debt. The bigger the debt the more they own.
Your constitution is a zero threat. It gets bypassed is all kind of ways. Some live under the law. Some above...
well, let's put it this way. It's a threat in that it exists. There is always the potential that the people might wake up some morning and read it.
Have you read the constitution the Eu is trying to cram down your throats, yet?
Quote from: Molly on April 03, 2009, 06:29:15 PM
Quote from: martincisneros on April 03, 2009, 06:19:10 PM
Quote from: sparrow on April 03, 2009, 05:54:37 PM
Martin, care to lay out a plan, then? :Sparkletooth:
It's all I've ever done in everything I've ever written. Nothing I've ever written -- ever -- in any context -- has been about self indulgent luxury. It's always been a call and spiritual methodology towards this.
I think the problem is that Christians have been taught to be passive and reactive. They respond to a crisis with whatever help they can muster.
Actually it is Satans minions that are spreading Christianity around.
Christianity is all about "believing" enough and thats enough. Christian theology takes the aspect of teaching that a spirit filled walk is to see a "physical" problem on earth and pray about it. They teach to stay out of the world, but if your going to go into the world, then pray.
So what happens? Really what happens is young energetic evangelical Christian get into politics to "make a difference" he goes in with all the spirit filled teachings of Christianity and its all hogwash since when he gets into the game young energetic evangelical Christian then realizes that his bible reading and prayer did not actually equip him to solve a problem so he gets swallowed alive.
Maybe when Christians will wake up and realize that solving real physical problems means you get down and dirty and you might get cut and you might cut someone else.
If Christians believe it is their job to fix america and the world in the consideration of what they all are afraid of then check your passivism at the door and get busy and quit whining and crying about it.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 03, 2009, 06:28:13 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on April 03, 2009, 06:04:59 PM
:cloud9: I've been saying the same thing Martin. If everyone had been given that money, a lot of people could have paid off their mortgages, thus freeing up more finances to spend elsewhere and I think the economy would have been stimulated by that, NOT by giving the money to the greedy jerks who got us into this mess in the first place. Blessings....
Give the money to the people but force them to spend it 100% on the mortgage.
Then the people would be out of debt and the banks would also have their money.
That way both would have gotten some benefit from the bailout.
Now the banks have the money and can cash in the mortages.
:cloud9: Exactly. As I see it, that would have benefited both parties, and the economy, all in one fell swoop. As they did it, only the banks benefited, as usual they were rewarded for evil. Blessings....
I don't disagree with you, Paul. Satan wouldn't be doing his job if he hadn't infiltrated every Christian church he possibly could. Jesus warned us about this, didn't he?
You could leave off the 'whining and crying' part though. Not sure who you are directing that to but it's inappropriate and unfair.
Quote from: martincisneros on April 03, 2009, 06:19:10 PM
Quote from: sparrow on April 03, 2009, 05:54:37 PM
Martin, care to lay out a plan, then? :Sparkletooth:
It's all I've ever done in everything I've ever written. Nothing I've ever written -- ever -- in any context -- has been about self indulgent luxury. It's always been a call and spiritual methodology towards this.
So what's the plan, Stan? :winkgrin:
Seriously.. what are you proposing, specifically?
Or am I just not understanding what you are saying?
The Baseline Scenario
What happened to the global economy and what we can do about it
What the IMF Would Tell the United States, If It Could
From 1945 until around 1980, the financial sector was one industry among many in the United States. Then something happened.
People in finance started making more money, jobs in finance became more desirable, financial institutions became more influential, and the linkages between the financial sector and the political establishment became stronger. At the same time that our financial sector became more leveraged and more risky, it also became more powerful. The result was a confluence of interests between Wall Street and Washington - one more normally found behind the scenes of emerging market crises, the kind the IMF is called on to resolve.
Simon and I tell this story - and the story of what happened next - in "The Quiet Coup," an article in the May issue of The Atlantic. (Many thanks to The Atlantic for putting the online copy up as early as they did.) The working title of the article was, "What the IMF Would Tell the United States, If It Could." Enjoy.
http://baselinescenario.com/2009/03/26/what-the-imf-would-tell-the-united-states-if-it-could/
The Quiet Coup
The crash has laid bare many unpleasant truths about the United States. One of the most alarming, says a former chief economist of the International Monetary Fund, is that the finance industry has effectively captured our government—a state of affairs that more typically describes emerging markets, and is at the center of many emerging-market crises. If the IMF's staff could speak freely about the U.S., it would tell us what it tells all countries in this situation: recovery will fail unless we break the financial oligarchy that is blocking essential reform. And if we are to prevent a true depression, we're running out of time.
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/imf-advice
Quote from: Molly on April 03, 2009, 07:37:39 PM
The crash has laid bare many unpleasant truths about the United States. One of the most alarming, says a former chief economist of the International Monetary Fund, is that the finance industry has effectively captured our government
"laid bare" is very negative no matter how you look at it.
a] It laid bare to the sleeping public. That means the ones in charge just ignored the problem. Or even worse profitted from it.
b] The ones in charge didn't knew about it. That mean they lack essential insight to run a country.
In both cases the leadership is unable and/or unwilling to change things for the better.
Its impossible to pay of debt if the debt is higher than total amount of money. Every dollar printed is more debt because .gov has to pay a percentage on every printed dollar. (percentage on top of the value that is)
Actually, we're going to enter into unprecidented prosperity. Won't look good at first as gold prices hit $1600US to $1700US per ounce or in that ballpark 'cause it'll actually look like the US dollar is basically cigarette rolling paper, but prosperity is coming by other means. Way toooo many believers have sown for prosperity over too many years and haven't been weary in well doing and for them it's going to start coming to them as easily as their breath comes to them. For others that knew to, but bailed on that revelation, "ah well..."
Quote from: martincisneros on April 03, 2009, 07:58:09 PM
Actually, we're going to enter into unprecidented prosperity. Won't look good at first as gold prices hit $1600US to $1700US per ounce or in that ballpark 'cause it'll actually look like the US dollar is basically cigarette rolling paper, but prosperity is coming by other means. Way toooo many believers have sown for prosperity over too many years and haven't been weary in well doing and for them it's going to start coming to them as easily as their breath comes to them. For others that knew to, but bailed on that revelation, "ah well..."
I already see people working on many of these solutions, people actively coming up with ideas. The car manufacturers are trying to do things differently and do things to spur growth. One thing they are doing is that if you buy a new car, and you get laid off from work they will cover your payments for up to a year.
When I talk about solutions, those are solutions that matter. I can look at the world and I can find all the evil I can handle. I can scoop it up and seal it up in a jar and carry it around with me and I can show that evil to everyone I see and make the case for this impending judgement or crisis. All this evil and bad that I have stored up in my jar can all be true, 100% of it can be true and I can glimmer in going out and finding it all.
Or.....
I can look around and see that evil, I can scoop it up and place it in my jar, then when that jar gets full I can seal it up tight. Then I can get an even bigger jar, and I can look at the world and find the good. I can also toss in my ideas in this new jar , and in fact, I'll throw in my jar of evil in there too, just as a reminder of why I am seeking the good. Pretty soon, ideas, concepts, solutions, things people are actually doing fill the new jar up and just to keep my basis in reality, I sift through the jar of good to check on my jar of evil and realize that somehow, as tight as I sealed it up, that jar isn't as full as it once was.
A stimulus for example of 295,00 per person, over eighteen; and 590,000 for married couples:
Pay down the mortgage, housing crisis solved ... 100,000/200,000
Purchase a new vehicle, stimulating the auto industry ... 15,000/30,000
Set funds aside for college ... 40,000/80,000
Start a business, thus, increasing employment ... 45,000/90,000
Pay down debt owed ... 30,000/60,000
Put some towards retirement ... 25,000/50,000
Take a vacation, stimulating the economy in other areas ... 8,000/16,000
Purchase miscellaneous items, stimulating the economy ... 6,000/12,000
Increase savings ... 1,000/2,000
Pay taxes (8.4-8.5%), lowering the stimulus package ... 25,000/50,000
If, a stimulus was needed to begin with :dontknow:
peacemaker
Argentina: Poster boy for the New World Order.
Argentina
Between disintegration and revolution
by James Petras Henry Veltmeyer
CovertAction Quarterly magazine, Fall 2002
Throughout the early and mid-nineties, the International Monetary Fund (IMF), World Bank, the Inter-American Development Bank, and the G-7 countries, all praised Argentina's liberalization program as an economic model for the Third World. Then President Carlos Menem and Economic Minister Domingo Cavallo promised the Argentine people that they would soon become part of the "First World."
Today, Argentina is in total disintegration. Not only is the economy in its fifth year of recession/depression, but its banking system has collapsed, the unemployment rate has skyrocketed, and over half the population lives below the poverty line.
No country in contemporary Latin American history has fallen swifter and further into mass poverty and experienced as prolonged an economic collapse as Argentina. Though most Latin American countries have applied neoliberal policies, none has been as thorough and rapid as Argentina. Moreover, no Latin American country was as industrially advanced or had as diversified an economy. Finally, Argentina had the highest standard of living in the region, the most qualified and skilled labor force, and the political leadership most determined to follow the precepts of the International Financial Institutions (IFls) and the G-7.
Argentina is a test case for the efficacy or failures of the neoliberal approach under optimal conditions: a willing government, a well-developed infrastructure, a skilled labor force, long-term links to world markets, and a significant middle class with Euro-American patterns of culture and consumption.
The number of Argentines below the poverty line has grown geometrically: Ten years ago there were less than 15%, two years ago it was 30%. In June 2002 the percentage exceeded 50%. In that month, Eduardo Duhalde's regime acknowledged 18.2 million people (51%) below the poverty line. Of these, 7.8 million are indigents according to SIEMPRO (Spanish acronym for System of Information, Monitoring and Evaluation of Social Programs), an official institution under the jurisdiction of the President. Children and adolescents living in poverty number almost 8.2 million. Between January and May 2002, the number of poor grew by 3.8 million, or 762,000 a month, or 25,000 a day. The rate of indigence is growing even faster. In 1998, 29% of the poor were indigent; in June 2002, 43%. The massification of extreme poverty is manifested in the high rates of child malnutrition-over 58% in Matanzas, a working-class suburb of Buenos Aires. In the interior there are numerous reports of children fainting in school for lack of food, and over 60% of newborns in Misiones suffer from anemia-a direct result of government cutbacks to meet G-7 and IMF demands.
INTO THE ABYSS
Apart from the top 10% of the population, all working sectors and pensioners have experienced an average 67% income decline. In 1997, the United Nations Development Program (UNDP) calculated per capita annual income at $8,950. In March 2002 it was $3,197. The decline affects all regions of the country. If we use as rough indicators of "class" the different regions of the province of Buenos Aires, we can approximate the social impact of the crisis. The income in the capital city of Buenos Aires, which we can take as largely middle class, saw the average fall from $909 a month in December 2001 to $363 in March 2002; in the working-class suburbs (conurbano) of the city of Buenos Aires income fell from $506 to $202; in the province of Buenos Aires, from $626 to $250. The largest decline is among workers in the informal sector (work without benefits or employment protections) and among pensioners. In the capital, income of the "informals" dropped from $643 to $257; in the working class suburbs from $334 to $134; in the province from $394 to $158. Among pensioners the decline was from $437 to $175 in the capital; from $320 to $128 in the working-class suburbs and from $360 to $144 in the province. The situation is far worse in the other provinces, where pay scales are lower, unemployment is higher, and where there are frequently three to six month delays in payment of salaries and pensions.
For the working and middle classes, the loss of formal employment means a sharp decline in income. Employed wage earners in the private sector of the capital earned $904 in December 2001. Those who were forced into under-employment were earning $257 in the informal sector three months later. A 30% rise in prices during the same period accompanied the skyrocketing loss of jobs.
Those whose main income is a pension are indigent in all geographical sectors, as are all unemployed workers (30% of the labor force) living in the suburbs and greater Buenos Aires. Even if we assume that some workers classified as unemployed are actually working in the informal sector, almost all are near or below the line of indigence. The massive growth of unemployment to 30% nationally, from 40 60% in the working-class suburbs, and even higher in some of the former one-industry towns of the interior, is reminiscent of the worst years of the U.S. depression of the 1930s and of Weimar Germany in the 1920s.
Accompanying and interrelated to the impoverishment of the mass of the middle and working classes is the concentration of wealth in the ruling and upper middle classes and foreign capitalists and bankers. In 1974 the top 10% received 28% of national income, in 1992 slightly over 34% and in 2001 over 37%, while the poorest 10% received 2.2% in both 1974 and 1992 and 1.3% in 2001- before the devaluation and sharp increase of unemployment.
Together the upper classes-the ruling elite plus the upper middle class-receive 53% of declared income. Because the upper classes were able to withdraw their funds (estimates run as high as $40 billion) from the banks and send their money outside the country, avoiding the confiscation of December 2001, the percentage of wealth in the hands of the upper classes is probably close to 80%.
In that confiscation, the government froze all bank accounts, and subsequently converted them to pesos. The conversion rate in June 2002 was 3.5 pesos to the dollar. In effect, the accounts were reduced from $45 billion to approximately $13 billion and declining. The regime's attempt to convert the remainder into state bonds redeemable in ten years at 2% interest would devalue these personal savings accounts even further, given the 30% rate of inflation for the first quarter of 2002. This attempt by the regime to swindle the account holders out of their savings was prevented by massive demonstrations by the impoverished middle class-the potbanging cacerolazos-which threatened the Congress and stormed the banks.
MACROECONOMIC INDICATORS
During the first three months of 2002, industrial activity declined by over 18%. Textiles and manufacturing were down 48% over the previous year. The number of plant closures accelerated throughout the 1999-2002 period, reaching unprecedented levels in the last trimester of 2001 and the first half of 2002. Unused industrial capacity was running at more than 50% in most sectors of the economy, including metal, textiles and auto parts.
Between 1990 and 1998, the foreign debt grew from $58 billion to $140 billion. Over the same period the cumulative sum of capital flight plus interest payments rose from $75 billion to $197 billion. In other words, external borrowing largely financed capital flight and part of the mushrooming debt payments, leaving a net deficit in capital flow. This eroded the economy's capacity to sustain growth and subsequently led to the recession, further budget cuts, and later turned the recession into a depression. The foreign and domestic elites' massive withdrawal of funds-aided and abetted by the foreign banks led to the confiscation of savings of millions of Argentines and the virtual collapse of the financial system. Throughout 1999-2001, IMF loans merely served to pay back private banks and the IFls, while exacerbating the debt problem, deepening the recession, and lowering living standards. In order to get short-term loans, Argentina was paying 16% over U.S. Treasury notes as late as August 2001. Once the fall took place, neither the IFls nor the G-7 were willing to lend new money, unless the central government repealed its Economic Subversive Law (a law designed to prosecute illicit banking practices), abolished the provincial currencies which kept the local economies afloat, and fired several hundreds of thousands of health, educational and other public employees.
The key concern of the IFls with repealing the Economic Subversive Law was that it was an instrument to prosecute G-7 banks that were involved in the illegal transfer of over $50 billion in the year 2001-02. In June 2002, under IMF pressure, the law was repealed. While the IMF blamed the Argentine "savers" for the financial crisis-by making panic withdrawals-substantial data demonstrate that the private, principally foreign-owned banks had already consummated a massive transfer of funds out of the country and were not willing to re-capitalize the banks. Furthermore, the IMF and World Bank pressured the Argentine government to assume the private banks' obligations to their depositors and issue ten-year state-guaranteed bonds in lieu of direct payments to holders of savings accounts. Lacking funds and facing total unwillingness of foreign bank corporations to recapitalize their Argentine subsidiaries, the foreign and national private banks claimed to be on the verge of bankruptcy, at exactly the moment that the rightful claimants attempted to withdraw their savings.
The immediate cause for the collapse of Argentine capitalism was the role of the foreign-owned banks and the IFls, led by the IMF, in emptying the Argentine financial system. The longer-term reasons are rooted in regressive structural changes including privatization, Structural Adjustment Programs (SAPs), open markets, and quasi-criminal "deregulation" of the economy. All these led to the collapse of domestic production, wholesale pillage of the economy, and the confiscation of millions of saving accounts.
In the months leading up to the crisis, the ten leading banks moved approximately $27 billion out of the Argentine financial system. This system operated on two levels: a formal system of deposits and loans and an "informal sector" where mega-accounts operated, largely to launder funds and carry out speculative activity in the financial sector. The "other" categories in February 2001 amounted to $57 billion in assets and $60 billion in obligations. By November the totals of "others" declined to $25 billion for assets and $35 billion in obligations. A closer analysis reveals that of the $25 billion decline in assets, over 74% of it took place among the ten biggest banks. The IMF loans to Argentina served to cover the growing drain of resources out of the financial system by the financial elites, while imposing harsher cuts in public spending and investment. The triple phenomena of deepening economic depression, financial flight, and growing indebtedness were caused by the alliance of the IFls, the foreign and local big financiers, and the foreign-owned banks. The small and medium Argentine depositors were victims of a covert financial swindle, and not the perpetrators, as the apologists charged. Their desperate and belated effort to withdraw their savings was a reaction to the financial swindle executed by the financial elite. Most small and medium savers, however, were not successful. Bank liabilities after the flight of big accounts and the drying up of overseas credits far exceeded their assets; with the economic crisis, many of their outstanding loans were delinquent and there was no way that headquarters would inject new funds to cover the demands of depositors. The government intervened to "save the banks" by freezing all deposits and preventing depositors from recovering any of their savings. The gross class character of the government's financial rescue plan infuriated the dispossessed middle and lower classes. The subsequent devaluation of the peso in effect robbed them of two-thirds the face value of their frozen savings and depressed their incomes, while the upper middle and ruling classes who got their money out of the financial system were able to lower their cost of living, production and consumption by a commensurate 65%.
PUBLIC FIRESALE
The Menem regime gave the appearance of an "affluent regime" thanks to heavy borrowing and windfall income from the selloff of public properties. Most of the inflows of capital raised upper class consumption and facilitated wholesale corruption by the entire political class and their entourages of public officials, judges, customs officers, police, and military officials. Foreign bankers were willing to lend because the interest rates were 10 to 20 points above the Euro-U.S. rates and there was easy liquidity given free convertibility, and the de facto dollarization of the economy ensured monetary stability. Thus, each step of the liberalization process weakened the fundamentals of the economy: The domestic economy shrank, entrepreneurs fled into apparently lucrative financial-speculative activity, debt payments skyrocketed, the loans-for-privatization deals were approaching their limits, and external flight of capital accelerated as the upper classes sensed that the whole liberal edifice would eventually collapse, leaving neither a productive system nor monetary resources to revive it.
Crucial to the collapse of the bubble economy was the behavior of the Argentine big bourgeoisie. Powerfully ensconced in the Menem regime, they were the initial
beneficiaries of the privatization process and the loans from overseas lenders. They were also the group that dictated economic policy. The Menem regime's point of reference for developing the liberal agenda was, first and foremost, the dominant classes in Argentina who had investments overseas, were tightly linked to overseas banks via joint investments in privatized banks and via foreign loans, and who demanded a peso easily convertible into dollar equivalence. Liberalization to the maximum allowed this 'transnational' Argentine bourgeoisie to buy public banks and enterprises on the cheap and sell them to foreign capital. Deregulation of the banks allowed massive transfers of funds out of the country and the laundering of illicit gains. Cheap imports, easy loans and fast exits of funds were the Argentine elite's definition of liberalization.
For obvious reasons the G-7 countries and the IFls were wildly enthusiastic: They gained control over banks and deposits, lucrative telecommunications, airlines, oil and other money-earning public enterprises. They encouraged the regime to proceed full speed ahead with reckless abandon.
As the domestic economy, particularly in the provinces, collapsed, the provincial governments ran up huge debts-partly to finance corrupt political machines to sustain the national government, and partly to avoid provincial popular revolts. Unlike South Korea, China, and Japan, large-scale corruption did not grease the wheels of national production: Bribes greased the hands that sold off lucrative public enterprises to foreign investors who stripped assets and reduced local production in favor of large-scale speculative activity. There was an inverse relation: As corruption grew, industry declined, tax receipts were negligible and competitiveness became an empty slogan.
Meanwhile, foreign investors moved in on the agro-industrial sectors, retail trade (mega malls), real estate and hotels, in association with a small nucleus of the Argentine economic elite and sectors of the kleptocratic political class, headed by the extended Menem family and its political entourage.
The first major adverse effect was the slashing of employees in the process of preparing public enterprises for privatization. The state fired hundreds of thousands of workers in the telephone, railroad, and waterworks sectors, assuming the economic costs and taking responsibility for repressing the ensuing protests. Many cities in the interior, like the petroleum city of Neuquen, were turned from prosperous cities to ghost towns, with 30-40% unemployment rates. Promises of "alternative employment" were never kept, as provincial and local officials linked to the central government either stole the funds outright or used them to finance their political machines, through expansion of unproductive "administrative" jobs.
The "centralization" of legislative and executive powers in the presidency-in his very person-and the dictatorial methods Menem used to legislate (most industries and banks were privatized via presidential decrees) facilitated rapid and extensive liberalization.
DISINTEGRATION & DESTITUTION
U.S. Secretary of the Treasury Paul O'Neill weighed in on the side of the IMF's "final squeeze," endorsing the IMF bailout of the bankers and the takeover of the remaining sectors of the economy. But he demanded, in typical euphemistic language, "a political solution." He called for a strong authoritarian regime capable of ramming the mass job firings, budget cuts and abolition of local currencies policy down the throats of the impoverished Argentines. O'Neill questioned "the leadership capacity" of the Duhalde government. According to an interview, O'Neill said Argentina's problem boiled down to a single question: Will the Argentine government do what it has to do, namely, implement the IMF policies? What O'Neill and others in the IFls and G7 mean by "political will" is precisely to override the interests and survival of thirty-three million Argentines, elected congressional officials, governors, and mayors, and force upon them further bankruptcies and unemployment-to push beyond the 53% poverty level to satisfy overseas bankers and investors.
Probably the most obscene remarks came from Anne Krueger, second in command at the IMF, a U.S. appointee and a former Stanford professor. In an interview in the Financial Times, she claimed that "the Argentine authorities are not sufficiently realistic as they should be." Realism, according to Krueger, means that in the midst of a depression, cut public spending, lower living standards and increase unemployment. The "realism" referred to is the world of finance capital and its voracious appetite to squeeze even more interest payments from bankrupt provinces, businesses and public treasuries; to withdraw more savings from Argentina with impunity.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/South_America/Argentina_Disint_Revol.html
Not all the blame falls on the NWO concepts.
Corruption allegations against Argenitina's rulers
Jul 11th 2007
From The Economist Intelligence Unit ViewsWire
Following a string of recent corruption allegations, the administration of President Néstor Kirchner is being hit with a new brouhaha surrounding his economy minister, Felisa Miceli. The case could damage Mr Kirchner's image by adding to a growing perception that corruption runs deep in his government. Ms Miceli may ultimately be sacrificed. However, the incident will have little if any effect on economic policy, which is largely run directly by the president and his inner circle. Nor is it likely to undermine his wife's prospects in the October 28th presidential elections.
Accusations of irregularities and payoffs, particularly in public-works and other government contracts, have been made since 2005, but only in recent months have they been accompanied by evidence. The case of a large natural-gas pipeline project, which surfaced in March, may involve as much as US$25m in illegal payments to government officials, according to opposition politicians and a judge. At least one foreign company, Sweden's Skanska, has been implicated.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 03, 2009, 10:55:29 PM
Not all the blame falls on the NWO concepts.
Corruption allegations against Argenitina's rulers
Jul 11th 2007
From The Economist Intelligence Unit ViewsWire
Following a string of recent corruption allegations, the administration of President Néstor Kirchner is being hit with a new brouhaha surrounding his economy minister, Felisa Miceli. The case could damage Mr Kirchner's image by adding to a growing perception that corruption runs deep in his government. Ms Miceli may ultimately be sacrificed. However, the incident will have little if any effect on economic policy, which is largely run directly by the president and his inner circle. Nor is it likely to undermine his wife's prospects in the October 28th presidential elections.
Accusations of irregularities and payoffs, particularly in public-works and other government contracts, have been made since 2005, but only in recent months have they been accompanied by evidence. The case of a large natural-gas pipeline project, which surfaced in March, may involve as much as US$25m in illegal payments to government officials, according to opposition politicians and a judge. At least one foreign company, Sweden's Skanska, has been implicated.
Yes, of course. The rulers of these countries are always complicit with the international rapists. They have to be by definition. And, often, if they are not, they meet untimely deaths.
If you had read the previous article I posted, you would see he is making allegations that we have the same problem here, affectionately known as cronyism.
Have you made a list of Obama's international backers recently?
Globalists as a breed have loyalty to a class and no loyalty to any country.
Hi Molly, I am only asking this because you said it to me.
You stated Obama is irrevalent, so why do I need to worry about what you posted about him?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 03, 2009, 11:16:41 PM
Hi Molly, I am only asking this because you said it to me.
You stated Obama is irrevalent, so why do I need to worry about what you posted about him?
At this point he is irrelevant because he is no longer an issue in that we are stuck with him for at least four years.
Congress comes up for review by the voters much sooner than that.
That's what I meant.
Quote from: Molly on April 03, 2009, 11:18:12 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 03, 2009, 11:16:41 PM
Hi Molly, I am only asking this because you said it to me.
You stated Obama is irrevalent, so why do I need to worry about what you posted about him?
At this point he is irrelevant because he is no longer an issue in that we are stuck with him for at least four years.
Congress comes up for review by the voters much sooner than that.
That's what I meant.
OK, np. will be excersizing my freedom to vote then too.
Obama's the President we're needing for this season of America. Don't worry, Molly, Lord Jesus is about to have a long talk with him. :cloud9:
I'm still over here waiting for the plan... :coffee:
:grin:
careful guys, there will always be a smoking guns....
I just saw this. This is from January 8th of this year, but I just saw it. Anyway, after I'm less drunk in the Holy Ghost after having seen this and can stop speaking in other tongues and interpreting for a little while, I really want to go back and reread my posts since about last May at these boards 'cause I'm genuinely not sure if I said on the boards what some of my thoughts were last year, but this video was the mouth of a second witness for me about a lot of stuff. If you don't have something approximating broadband or DSL or anything a bit over dialup, then, unfortunately "forget it" 'cause this is about an hour and a half. But it's worth doing what you've got to do to get to a high speed connection for a couple of hours: http://www.kimclement.tv/video.php?vid=7 (http://www.kimclement.tv/video.php?vid=7) Not sure about on other browsers if it's about the same, but on Internet Explorer if you right click the tiny screen on the webpage and go to zoom, there's the full screen option. Again, it's about an hour and a half, so if you have to be at work in half an hour, don't start it 'cause you'll be really late, and if you're as sensitive to the Holy Spirit as I am, you're likely to show up incoherent :Sparkletooth:
Quote from: martincisneros on April 04, 2009, 04:46:47 AM
I just saw this. This is from January 8th of this year, but I just saw it. Anyway, after I'm less drunk in the Holy Ghost after having seen this and can stop speaking in other tongues and interpreting for a little while, I really want to go back and reread my posts since about last May at these boards 'cause I'm genuinely not sure if I said on the boards what some of my thoughts were last year, but this video was the mouth of a second witness for me about a lot of stuff. If you don't have something approximating broadband or DSL or anything a bit over dialup, then, unfortunately "forget it" 'cause this is about an hour and a half. But it's worth doing what you've got to do to get to a high speed connection for a couple of hours: http://www.kimclement.tv/video.php?vid=7 (http://www.kimclement.tv/video.php?vid=7) Not sure about on other browsers if it's about the same, but on Internet Explorer if you right click the tiny screen on the webpage and go to zoom, there's the full screen option. Again, it's about an hour and a half, so if you have to be at work in half an hour, don't start it 'cause you'll be really late, and if you're as sensitive to the Holy Spirit as I am, you're likely to show up incoherent :Sparkletooth:
I never video or youtube because it never have closed caption for the deaf and hard of hearing and I am one of them.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/08599188951200
Creepy......I don't like this
Hey Martin--
I listened to your prophet--haven't quite finished it yet--and I am willing to be cautiously optimistic.
38And Elisha came again to Gilgal: and there was a dearth in the land; and the sons of the prophets were sitting before him: and he said unto his servant, Set on the great pot, and seethe pottage for the sons of the prophets.
39And one went out into the field to gather herbs, and found a wild vine, and gathered thereof wild gourds his lap full, and came and shred them into the pot of pottage: for they knew them not.
40So they poured out for the men to eat. And it came to pass, as they were eating of the pottage, that they cried out, and said, O thou man of God, there is death in the pot. And they could not eat thereof.
41But he said, Then bring meal. And he cast it into the pot; and he said, Pour out for the people, that they may eat. And there was no harm in the pot.
--2Kings 4
When he talked about a deadly plant that would cure cancer, the word 'oleander' popped into my mind. I do not live in a part of the world where that plant is present so it surprised me and I googled 'deadly oleander and cancer.' Here is what came up:
Oleander, A Cure for Cancer?
In the early 1960's a Turkish doctor by the name of Huseyin Ziya Ozel was searching for a cure for his pet dog's cancer.
He noticed that a large number of Turkish villagers referred to him came from high altitudes and he thought that perhaps there was more to the story than just the higher incidence of skin cancer associated with higher altitudes...
My own search for a possible cancer cure began in late 2004 when I found out that my cousin, lifelong friend and running buddy, Jeff Johnson, had been diagnosed as having stage-three melanoma.
The cancer had appeared out of nowhere and so it was quite a shock to my cousin and everyone close to him.
As luck would have it, I had spent a lot of time the previous four years or so working on my dream of someday posting a website aimed at helping aging baby boomers and others live longer, healthier and happier lives. Naturally, a lot of my research involved searching for ways to ward off and treat diseases and ills such as cancer, Alzheimer's, heart disease, high blood pressure, kidney and liver disease, and so forth.
When I found out about my cousin, I already had a head start on knowing where and how to look, and so I began to redouble my efforts and focus my research more on cancer. As a result of my research, I found a lot of very good information about fighting cancer and other diseases, boosting our immune systems and improving health in general - much of which you may find in my simple "A Plan for Living a Long and Healthy Life" posted here in this forum. However, it was not my research that led me to finding out about the magical, miraculous oleander plant - it was a card game! (Oleander is also known as dogbane, laurier rose, and rosebay)
Yes, the way I first heard about the healing powers of oleander happened one evening when I was sitting down at a friendly card game and mentioned my cousin's cancer. An acquaintance of mine whom I had known for a few years and who had worked for the American Medical Association at one time, looked across the table at me and, as serious as could be, said "I know a cure." He then proceeded to tell me an amazing story of what he knew about oleander. Later, I found others who told me essentially the same basic story, although each person seemed to have a slightly different version. I fully expect that the story is headed toward becoming a modern day legend someday. Although the versions I heard have differed somewhat, the basic story line I believe to be essentially correct is as follows:
More at...
http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/oleander-cancer.shtml
He also mentioned that our energy problems would be solved--which as you know from earlier discussions, they are by the Bakken oil fields--the largest oil deposits in the world are in our own backyard, if only we would do horizontal drilling there and sell the oil for the benefit of the American people.
Like I said, Martin, I'm willing to be cautiously optimistic--but first we must throw off the parasite that sucks the very life out of the world for the benefit of satan. And, that's hard to do when most people have not even identified the parasite, yet, or have sold their soul to him.
Graviola, selenium, collagen, msm, mangosteen, aloe, coconut oil, stevia, noni, spirulina, vinca major (i.e. vinpocetine), and maybe 3 to 5 other things will cure just about everything you can think of, including so-called incurable stuff like Aids and obesity. Not each of the above for all of that. You've gotta know what with what, like Graviola, selenium, and oxygen/aloe therapy for cancer; stevia, chromium, and vanadium for type2 diabetes; stevia, mangosteen, and aloe for anything viral, etc.
Apart from ignorance of these superfoods, I guess there are still the factors of genetics, environment, and attitudes that people still need to be able to sort through. From my own personal experiences with aloe vera, I personally believe they'll eventually prove that it can help you rewrite bad DNA. I've literally regenerated my whole body, probably going on half a dozen times, as radically as the Doctor in the Doctor Who sci-fi with drinking gallons of aloe vera. I wouldn't be surprised if Graviola and mangosteen could as well, but I have limited experience with them since they cost 2 to 3 times as much.
I've just been lazy about getting as much spirulina and wheatgrass juice as I know in my heart that I'm personally supposed to be on for optimal health. You usually can't exactly buy those at the local 7/11, so...if I don't find 'em at the couple of stores that I shop the most often at, then I'll let it slide for another week/month/quarter. I'm half tempted at times to live on absolutely nothing but spirulina, even if I'm just wolfing down capsules of it 'cause it's all that's available or whatever. I always feel soooooooo goooooooooood on it. Not sure if it rebuilds depleted adrenals or what it does. I always feel so great after having an obscene amount of it.
Perhaps it's nothing more than getting the nutrients that they claim isn't in many crops these days. One of these days I'll very likely be a total rawfoodist, but in the meantime.... It could probably also be argued that that argument about the quality of today's organic produce is a deflection from the main issue that Western folks don't eat it anyway! I'm a vegan and I'm not 100% sure that I get the dozen or so servings of veggies that a person's probably actually supposed to be getting in order to get all of their micro trace nutrients. I guess that the myth is that in the 1600s (i.e. pre industrial revolution) you could eat a carrot, potato, and a piece of lettuce and get 180,000 nutrients out of that at 10g each or whatever, whereas today "good luck."
I had a vision of my own recently--it concerned Noah's flood.
16And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.
17And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
18And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
19And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
20Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
21And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
24And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.
--Gen 6
This story is always read as all the evil people on the earth being killed, with only Noah and his family and animals saved because they are protected within the ark [of Christ].
But, in my vision, I saw the flood waters as people. As you know, we are 90 percent water, and I saw the water from the earth, (people), being pulled up to join the water pouring down from heaven--and evil being covered over by love--all people raising their spirits, souls, and bodies heavenward, buoying [bearing] up the ark of Christ.
It gave me such joy. And, now, through Cardinal's insight, I can see where the ark full of people and animals is a PERSON--eight souls saved alive--the eighth day--the risen Christ.
Mark 16:2
And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
One hundred and fifty days is 150,000 years--a Millenium x 100.
2 Peter 2:5
And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
NATO protesters storm hotel, light fires
Officials cancel Michelle Obama's plan to visit hospital amid security fears (Some 1,000 protesters were staked out near the hospital they were to visit. )
STRASBOURG, France - Black-clad protesters attacked police and set a customs station ablaze Saturday on a bridge linking France and Germany that served hours earlier as the backdrop for a show of unity by NATO leaders.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30040224/
The protestors are trying to have NATO disbanded, saying it's no longer necessary with the end of the cold war. Estimated: 5000 protestors.
That's actually what it says.
Quote from: Molly on April 04, 2009, 07:06:06 PM2 Peter 2:5
And spared not the old world, but saved... bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
Quote from: martincisneros on April 04, 2009, 07:33:13 PM
That's actually what it says.
Quote from: Molly on April 04, 2009, 07:06:06 PM2 Peter 2:5
And spared not the old world, but saved... bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
Cool. :thumbsup:
:cloud9: Cool vision Molly! You saw the waters below the firmament rising to meet the waters above the firmament; fimament = heaven/Spirit, ie. and they will meet Him in the "air". You saw the REAL rapture. :thumbsup:
Martin was interested in your knowledge of supplements. Part of the aftermath of excessive prednisone use is weight gain and a suppressed immune system. Do you know what would help those issues?
The prednisone actually suppresses your immune system, which is why I find it ironic to the point of insanity, that they would give it to a person with double pneumonia INFECTION. :mshock:
Not to mention suppressing your adrenal function until they wither up and die if you don't get off of it in time. And I've found that neither bounce right back, so you are impaired for quite some time. One estimate I read: 6 months to 2 YEARS. :mshock: Blessings...
Quote from: CardinalYou saw the REAL rapture.
:mshock:
wow.
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: Cardinal on April 04, 2009, 07:53:22 PM
Martin was interested in your knowledge of supplements. Part of the aftermath of excessive prednisone use is weight gain and a suppressed immune system.
Organic raw extra virgin coconut oil for cooking speeds the metabolism, lowers cholesterol, and strengthens the immune system. Some books even recommend a spoon full of the organic raw extra virgin coconut oil daily by itself to help with weight loss. Flaxseed oil and magnesium for aches. You're really looking to get your omega-3s if you're dealing with any kind of ongoing pain. Using a good probiotic soap for washing your hands, and obviously the live cultured yogurt for helping to rebuild the immune system. Seems pointless to me to do the yogurt thing and to be using antibacterial soaps that are basically going to continue to wipe out good bacteria from your body. To me, it's about the same as continuing to use the antibiotics.
Use 'em if you feel you've got to for washing dishes, but if you're one of those that washes their hands a couple dozen or so times a day, then obviously for that use the probiotic soap instead of antibacterial. There are probiotic teas that you can buy as well. I can't remember right now the name of the raw one that I love to drink every chance I get. It's pretty strong tasting to me, but when immunity is low, that would be one of the first things that I'd personally hit. I think it's a little pricey, otherwise I'd always buy it. Regular sugar suppresses the immune system 6 to 8hrs, so stevia's going to have to become an acquired taste with any sweetened teas or whatever, in place of the sugar. Stevia actually helps to nurture the pancreas. Totally opposite effects from it as from sugar. Truvia and some of these other processed forms of stevia put out by Coke and Pepsi might be just a little too much processing of the stevia, so I'd go after the actual boxes of stevia 'cause sometimes something that's a little cheaper isn't necessarily going to give you the same quality and health benefits.
Vitamin C is good, but it's a bit antibacterial, so don't be afraid of it in normal stuff you'd eat or drink, but while rebuilding your immune system, I'd personally think about avoiding the C pills in the meantime. Now, if right in the middle of feeling down for the count if you suddenly got pounded with the cold from Hell, then obviously run towards the vitamin C 'cause few things are going to be better for flushing that from the system.
If you've got a good healthfood store locally, I hate to say it, but many of the juices that they're going to carry that you'll see the price and be all, "I can't believe that's THAT MUCH for that!!" is probably going to be the very thing you need. But if the $30 or $40 juices for such small bottles is a bit too rich for your blood, the raw extra virgin coconut oil isn't going to be anywhere near that expensive.
Graviola is amazing for building the immune system. Lots of naturopathic doctors use it in treating cancer because of how powerfully it'll build the immune system. It's a leaf from a south american plant and it's usually in capsules at the healthfood store.
And obviously all of the greens that you can get in your diet are going to help enormously with that.
There's no end to how far you can go with this. Depends on the budget, unfortunately, with how much of what I could share would be practical. Some of it is also going to be one of those "how sick and tired are you of being sick and tired?" 'cause when misery exceeds the fear factor, some people will spend whatever it takes to regain their health -- even if they don't really have it. Getting away from chlorinated/fluoride water in what you drink, using the particular type of Toms of Maine toothpaste that doesn't include fluoride in it, and using a chlorine filter for your shower head. Here's info on a distiller and shower filter http://www.healthmasters.com/water/index.shtml (http://www.healthmasters.com/water/index.shtml) Distilled water can be bought by the gallon in the stores, but some type of shower attachment might be difficult to avoid to stop getting chlorophormed.
The website at the link I just gave you also makes available some Toms of Maine toothpaste without fluoride. Not all of Toms of Maine's toothpastes are without fluoride, so you've got to be careful in what you order, if you can't find it locally at either a grocery store or healthfood store. Always best to compare prices if the manufacturer happens to also sell their own products, though, and this link goes straight to the toothpaste Toms of Maine carries:
http://www.tomsofmaine.com/products/toothpaste.aspx (http://www.tomsofmaine.com/products/toothpaste.aspx) Again, make sure the fluoride free option is clicked.
Big blue
The all-around superstar of the berry world is the blueberry. The biggest claim made for this little berry in recent years is its potential to boost memory and possibly help people with Alzheimer's disease. The studies, all done in lab animals, are promising. In tests of mice bred to develop Alzheimer's-like symptoms, those fed blueberries had close to normal levels of a neurochemical that allows brain cells to communicate; people with Alzheimer's have low levels of the chemical (acetylcholine). One 2003 study conducted in such mice found the animals could negotiate a maze better if they were fed blueberries every day as they grew to adulthood. Small studies have been conducted in older human volunteers fed a cup of blueberries every day which showed some improvement in memory and reaction skills. Animal studies also show that animals fed blueberries have less brain damage after an ischemic stroke.
Preliminary research reported in 2004 by the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) also found that a compound in blueberries had the potential to lower cholesterol as effectively as one prescription drug (ciprofibrate) with fewer side effects. The compound, called pterostilbene, is an antioxidant similar to resveratrol (found in grapes and red wine) that's also believed to lower cholesterol, among other cardioprotective qualities. Other lab studies by the same USDA research team showed this compound may also help fight cancer and help diabetics. Preliminary lab studies suggest fresh blueberry juice inhibits the growth of breast and cervical cancer cells.
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-31226723_ITM
When it comes to the Toms of Maine products -- all of 'em are all natural products. Nothing in them that you're going to find out in 15 years that that was a carcinogen or whatever. I personally do my best to use nothing but, because they tell you what's in it on the product, what source of nature they got it from, and what it does in their product. And for what I can't get from them (i.e. shampoo), I get from Jason's Naturals, usually at the stores that are local to me, but I believe they're available online too:
http://www.jason-natural.com (http://www.jason-natural.com)
Quote from: Molly on April 04, 2009, 09:34:41 PM
Big blue
The all-around superstar of the berry world is the blueberry. The biggest claim made for this little berry in recent years is its potential to boost memory and possibly help people with Alzheimer's disease. The studies, all done in lab animals, are promising. In tests of mice bred to develop Alzheimer's-like symptoms, those fed blueberries had close to normal levels of a neurochemical that allows brain cells to communicate; people with Alzheimer's have low levels of the chemical (acetylcholine). One 2003 study conducted in such mice found the animals could negotiate a maze better if they were fed blueberries every day as they grew to adulthood. Small studies have been conducted in older human volunteers fed a cup of blueberries every day which showed some improvement in memory and reaction skills. Animal studies also show that animals fed blueberries have less brain damage after an ischemic stroke.
Preliminary research reported in 2004 by the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) also found that a compound in blueberries had the potential to lower cholesterol as effectively as one prescription drug (ciprofibrate) with fewer side effects. The compound, called pterostilbene, is an antioxidant similar to resveratrol (found in grapes and red wine) that's also believed to lower cholesterol, among other cardioprotective qualities. Other lab studies by the same USDA research team showed this compound may also help fight cancer and help diabetics. Preliminary lab studies suggest fresh blueberry juice inhibits the growth of breast and cervical cancer cells.
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-31226723_ITM
Blue berries are fabulous for the immune system, for the eyes, and everything else, and like vinca major they're also a nootropic.
:cloud9: Thanks guys. I drink nothing but water now, having eliminated all coffee and tea from my diet, due to caffeine causing the adrenals to work harder. I'm backing out of most sugar in my diet for the same reason, and using honey instead. I'm not 100% sugar free, but getting close.
As for greens, a friend recommended barley and spirelina. I stopped them, because I felt bad after adding them. It might be the barley, not sure. I'm allergic to grasses. I STILL have infection which is now pretty much immune to the antibiotics I guess. I'll definitely try to find that coconut oil. I'm taking fish oil for omega 3. I'm learning as I go, trying to find something to undo the damage the pred did. Blessings...
If you deal with a queezy stomach, then a jug of aloe vera can help with digestion. I got rid of back pain a couple of years ago with a bunch of aloe. If you're not used to it, then obviously abide by the tiny cup directions on the side of the bottle; the one or two ounces directions or whatever it says from brand to brand. I talk pretty freely sometimes about being able to grab a jug of it and satiate my thirst with it, while for others that aren't used to it, that dose would keep them in the restroom for the rest of the day, if not for the foreseeable future! Not sure if it's got C or magnesium or if it's a powerhouse of both, plus enzymes. For me, it's just always the perfect pick me up, though. It'll work on me when nothing else will...when I'm that depleted....
Spirulina is actually a very powerful, nutrient dense algae, so if you get queezy on grasses/grains, it was more likely the barley that spanked you.
Mystery Roar Detected From Faraway Space
Friday, January 09, 2009 | FoxNews.com
By Andrea Thompson
LONG BEACH, Calif. — Space is typically thought of as a very quiet place. But one team of astronomers has found a strange cosmic noise that booms six times louder than expected.
The roar is from the distant cosmos. Nobody knows what causes it.
Of course, sound waves can't travel in a vacuum (which is what most of space is), or at least they can't very efficiently. But radio waves can.
Radio waves are not sound waves, but they are still electromagnetic waves, situated on the low-frequency end of the light spectrum.
Many objects in the universe, including stars and quasars, emit radio waves. Even our home galaxy, the Milky Way, emits a static hiss (first detected in 1931 by physicist Karl Jansky). Other galaxies also send out a background radio hiss.
But the newly detected signal, described here today at the 213th meeting of the American Astronomical Society, is far louder than astronomers expected.
There is "something new and interesting going on in the universe," said Alan Kogut of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md.
A team led by Kogut detected the signal with a balloon-borne instrument named ARCADE (Absolute Radiometer for Cosmology, Astrophysics, and Diffuse Emission).
In July 2006, the instrument was launched from NASA's Columbia Scientific Balloon Facility in Palestine, Texas, and reached an altitude of about 120,000 feet (36,500 meters), where the atmosphere thins into the vacuum of space.
ARCADE's mission was to search the sky for faint signs of heat from the first generation of stars, but instead they heard a roar from the distant reaches of the universe.
The universe really threw us a curve," Kogut said. "Instead of the faint signal we hoped to find, here was this booming noise six times louder than anyone had predicted."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,477880,00.html
Don't let the gnostics, premillenialists, and amillenialists see that. That would make their day and would complete their escapism from loving God's Creation to find out that our galaxy hisses :icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: martincisneros on April 04, 2009, 10:59:11 PM
Don't let the gnostics, premillenialists, and amillenialists see that. That would make their day and would complete their escapism from loving God's Creation to find out that our galaxy hisses :icon_jokercolor:
Ouroboros is an ancient alchemy symbol depicting a snake or dragon [DNA] swallowing its own tail, constantly creating itself and forming a circle.
Origins of the Ouroboros
The serpent or dragon eating its own tail has survived from antiquity and can be traced back to Ancient Egypt, circa 1600 B.C.E.
From there it passed to Phoenicia and then to the Greek philosophers, who gave it the name Ouroboros ("the tail-devourer").
Norse Mythology - the serpent Jormungand, one of the 3 children of Loki - the Trickster who grew so large that it could encircle the world and grasp its tail in its teeth.
Hindu Mythology - the dragon circling the tortoise which supports the four elephants that carry the world.
The serpent or dragon also appears in Aztec, Chinese, and Native American mythology.
Christians adopted the Ouroboros as a symbol of the limited confines of this world (that there is an "outside" being implied by the demarcation of an inside), and the self-consuming transitory nature of a mere this-worldly existence following in the footsteps of the Preacher in Ecclesiastes.
It could very well be used to symbolize the closed-system model of the universe of some physicists even today.
http://pyramidoflight-centre.com/bibliotheek/artikel_495
The Ouroboros is believed to have been inspired by
the Milky Way, as some ancient texts refer to a serpent of light residing in the heavens.
The Milky Way Galaxy is the inspiration for the symbol of the Ouroboros. Myth refers to a serpent of light residing in the heavens. The Milky Way is this serpent, and viewed at galactic central point near Sagittarius, this serpent eats its own tail. The Milky Way galaxy keeps a great time cycle that ends in catastrophic change. The sign of the Suntelia Aion is the sun rising out of the mouth of the ouroboros, which will occur on the solstice December 21, 2012 which links with the Mayan Calendar as a symbolic date the evolution of consciosness in the alchmey of time. This also goes to Quetzalcoatl and accelerating Earth changes in the Ring of Fire. The AION was symbolized by the Ouroboros. December 21, 2012
Quote from: Molly on April 04, 2009, 10:52:14 PM
Mystery Roar Detected From Faraway Space
Friday, January 09, 2009 | FoxNews.com
By Andrea Thompson
LONG BEACH, Calif. — Space is typically thought of as a very quiet place. But one team of astronomers has found a strange cosmic noise that booms six times louder than expected.
The roar is from the distant cosmos. Nobody knows what causes it.
Of course, sound waves can't travel in a vacuum (which is what most of space is), or at least they can't very efficiently. But radio waves can.
Radio waves are not sound waves, but they are still electromagnetic waves, situated on the low-frequency end of the light spectrum.
Many objects in the universe, including stars and quasars, emit radio waves. Even our home galaxy, the Milky Way, emits a static hiss (first detected in 1931 by physicist Karl Jansky). Other galaxies also send out a background radio hiss.
But the newly detected signal, described here today at the 213th meeting of the American Astronomical Society, is far louder than astronomers expected.
There is "something new and interesting going on in the universe," said Alan Kogut of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md.
A team led by Kogut detected the signal with a balloon-borne instrument named ARCADE (Absolute Radiometer for Cosmology, Astrophysics, and Diffuse Emission).
In July 2006, the instrument was launched from NASA's Columbia Scientific Balloon Facility in Palestine, Texas, and reached an altitude of about 120,000 feet (36,500 meters), where the atmosphere thins into the vacuum of space.
ARCADE's mission was to search the sky for faint signs of heat from the first generation of stars, but instead they heard a roar from the distant reaches of the universe.
The universe really threw us a curve," Kogut said. "Instead of the faint signal we hoped to find, here was this booming noise six times louder than anyone had predicted."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,477880,00.html
It's probadly the trumpet!!!
Quote from: IcedashIt's probadly the trumpet!!!
I thought the same thing, Icedash. :laughing7:
How interesting that the blast of the trumpet might come in the form of light rather than sound.
Or maybe when the light hits our atmosphere--it will be transformed into sound.
Maybe it will be both. Maybe it's the roar of the Lion of Judah.
Genesis 49:9
You are a lion's cub, O Judah; you return from the prey, my son. Like a lion he crouches and lies down, like a lioness—who dares to rouse him?
Revelation 5:5
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
maybe God is letting us know he still around and checking in :laughing7:
I remember the bible, the revelation said there will be signs in heaven (in other word star and universe, not God's home)
Quote from: sparrow on April 03, 2009, 05:54:37 PMMartin, care to lay out a plan, then? :Sparkletooth:
Can't get into anything with a crowd that's not a Word of Faith crowd 'cause a lot of what I would lay out would have to be in a context where as Jesus said, it would have to involve people that believed that their word was any good, but many around here haven't believed that their word was any good, so I'm leery of getting nonsense feedback from people all too ready to tell me where their integrity is at since Jesus said you've gotta believe that what you say comes to pass (Mark 11:23-24, et. al.). I'm not directing any of this directly at you. Just whenever I say something that requires the least bit of integrity of the heart and someone's own word, I usually get my ears boxed over it around Universalists and I just won't get very specific around certain crowds any more because of that. It's a heart issue before I can get very detailed.
Quote from: Molly on April 02, 2009, 07:35:19 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 02, 2009, 07:31:00 AM
So are you saying it's not happening, ignore/resist it, or it is happening, resist it? Because "they're" not going to be successful?
P.S., at LEAST, in the end, I realize they're not going to be successful, because God is going to be All in All...however, in the meantime....the process
It is happening. Resist it. There are people working night and day resisting it. Help them out. There's plenty to do.
Thirty five thousand people showed up on the streets of London this week to say hello to them.
There's a bill in congress to prevent them tampering with our currency.
Just echoing Molly's statements here. People are resisting this. Over at Ron Paul Forums, aka Liberty Forest, we're busy organizing marches, tea parties, etc. Not to mention screaming in each other's faces over who to believe and who to distrust...
Anyway, admittedly, I have great fear for this. This is compounded by the fact that my fundamentalist mom is anxious for it to happen, so long as she's not around when it does! Heck, the guys over at the Rapture Ready forums are doing calculations of how many people will be slaughtered a day in order to cut the world's population in thirds by the time of Jesus' return! Ironically, they all echoe the same sentiments, "This would be frightening if I knew I would be there. Thank God for the Rapture!" Yeah, so long as you're okay it doesn't matter if millions of people die each day...
So on that note, I'm terrified. However, I think things are reversable. Despite my pessimistic nature, I do believe that we can still change things if we're strong enough. Still, it does make me turn my head and think, "What if I don't have time anymore?"
:cloud9: That's almost unbelievable how irrational that makes those kinds of sites sound, yet there it is. Confirms to me what He told me years ago, about the roots of the rapture doctrine being fear and selfishness, though. Blessings....
Quote from: martincisneros on April 05, 2009, 03:55:08 AM
Quote from: sparrow on April 03, 2009, 05:54:37 PMMartin, care to lay out a plan, then? :Sparkletooth:
Can't get into anything with a crowd that's not a Word of Faith crowd 'cause a lot of what I would lay out would have to be in a context where as Jesus said, it would have to involve people that believed that their word was any good, but many around here haven't believed that their word was any good, so I'm leery of getting nonsense feedback from people all too ready to tell me where their integrity is at since Jesus said you've gotta believe that what you say comes to pass (Mark 11:23-24, et. al.). I'm not directing any of this directly at you. Just whenever I say something that requires the least bit of integrity of the heart and someone's own word, I usually get my ears boxed over it around Universalists and I just won't get very specific around certain crowds any more because of that. It's a heart issue before I can get very detailed.
ok.
(have no idea what a "word of faith" crowd is.. so I guess that leaves me out.)
Quote from: sparrow on April 05, 2009, 07:22:12 AM
ok.
(have no idea what a "word of faith" crowd is.. so I guess that leaves me out.)
It doesn't have to. It's someone who governs their spirit, soul, body, finances, and social life by the integrity of the promises of God's Word, isn't moved by what they see or by what they feel but only by what they believe of those promises and absolutely refuses under any and all circumstances anything else as an acceptable alternative in their lives -- and after having patiently endured, obtains the promises of God's Word regarding their spirit, soul, body, finances, and social life in this world. There are Scriptural principles to abide by between the "amen" and the "there it is" that bring about the Scriptural manifestations of the abundance of grace and gift of righteousness causing us to reign in this life.
Some people get an attitude about "well, whenever God wants to do these things, then that's fine" and they bury their talent, tithe, and whatever else the Scriptures
speak to them about. It's just a lifestyle of very active sowing and reaping that's promise of God's Word based rather than emotionally based. And many Universalists are emotionally based instead of "God said it, I believe it, that settles it" based about each and every single area of their lives rather than in just their eschatology and view of one aspect of the atonement. Some people govern their spirit, soul, body, finances, and social life by the Kingdom of God principles, while others are still in babylon.
Usually the ones still in babylon are the very ones that'll scream the most about babylon and have zero revelation of what they're talking about, but are merely cursing the world that God has blessed. As for me, if the Word won't provide it, I absolutely refuse to have it. He said seek first the kingdom and His righteousness and all of these things would be added to me. Therefore, I only know if I'm Scripturally inheriting the kingdom by the manifestation of the things in a context where I'm pursuing God and am rich towards God, yet these benefits keep coming upon me and overtaking me in my spirit, soul, body, and finances.
Life gets good when it's all from a position of one's seating with Christ in heavenly places, even financially. The prophets of baal will still run around screaming that it's all coming down, but we'll see whose fire manifests and what it does in due time. I am genuinely excited with my High Priest, Christ Jesus, and all that He's bringing to pass of God's Word in my life as I stand unwaveringly upon it in faith. He's my wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption and I don't forget all of His benefits, but I rejoice in the Lord my God for the abundance of all things Who has given me the power to get wealth in order to establish His covenant which He swore to our fathers as it is this day. I don't let the Word depart from my eyes, but I meditate therein day and night and I observe how to do all that's written therein and I prosper and have good success, as He said in Joshua 1:8.
I am excited that this is the millenium where we turn all of this around!! The blessing that comes upon the Gentiles through Christ Jesus in Galatians 3 is referred to in Isaiah as the Garden of Eden.
"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principles, stand like a rock."
-- Thomas Jefferson.
Quote from: Molly on April 05, 2009, 07:49:14 AM
"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principles, stand like a rock."
-- Thomas Jefferson.
:goodpost: :iagree: :drummer: :rocker
And in saying what I said, I wasn't saying that that's any easier for me than for anyone else :omg: 'cause I'm usually a total basketcase emotionally, but if Jesus said that those that were fully matured would conduct themselves just like Him, then that's good enough for me (Luke 6:40, John 8, Romans 8, Colossians 3:17) and that's my anchor for when emotional winds would love to take me down like St. Paul's boat at the close of the book of Acts. I'm seldom telling everyone that we're going to make it 'cause I'm feeling all of that fantastic about it at the time, but Paul said in 2Timothy to stir it up.
:cloud9: Amen to your above posts, Martin. You're on fire this week....... :thumbsup:
They are Gog and Magog, the traditional guardians of the City of London, and they have been carried in the Lord Mayor's Show since the reign of Henry V.
The statues of Gog and Magog currently standing in the Guildhall were commissioned from sculptor David Evans by Alderman Sir George Wilkinson, who was Lord Mayor when the previous versions were destroyed in the Blitz. The phoenix shield tells us that this is Magog.
http://www.lordmayorsshow.org/visitors/history/gogmagog
Ezekiel 38:2
"Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal; prophesy against him
3 and say: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal.
7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
--Rev 20
Quote from: martincisneros on April 02, 2009, 08:08:59 AM
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on April 02, 2009, 08:05:58 AM
Molly,
In perilous times you are advising people to 'trust America's founding fathers'? We're going to be saved by fighting for our Constitution and an earthly government? I don't think so.
Jesus once said, "Do not weep for me - weep for yourselves and for your children. Do you think that was an odd thing for him to say? Why would Jesus say such a thing?
Anne
Because the Roman Empire was about to go through perilous times. Israel was about to be DESTROYED and Biblical Judaism was to be no more forever and ever (and I don't mean anything connected to aion). Of course He said for them to weep 'cause if they rejected Him, then they had no connection to a Biblical faith ever again in this life.
Martin,
Don't you see how the Roman Empire continued? And how it wrapped its tentacles into Christiandom and set up the state of Israel? History is repeating itself. Do you intend to live in an earthly body eternally? I don't. Have a fresh, prayerful and open-minded look at Revelation chapter 17.
Anne
Quote
ok.
(have no idea what a "word of faith" crowd is.. so I guess that leaves me out.)
Sparrow, the 'Word of Faith' was a charismatic/pentecostal movement in America. As far as I'm concerned, it was a false movement filled with leaders who used the preaching of the gospel to fleece the flock and get material wealth for themselves. Google 'Word of Faith' and have a look at what you find. Kenneth Hagin was a big name in that movement. I can't think of all the others, but there was a whole bunch of them, sometimes referred to as the Kansas City Prophets. The reason I am so familiar with them is because when I was desperately looking for the truth and for God's love, I read a ton of their writings, trying to figure out what God was all about. I've had a taste of many of the camps in Babylon.
Anne
p.s. Kenneth Copeland and Oral Roberts also come to mind. But there's a whole slew of them.
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 08:58:45 AM
They are Gog and Magog, the traditional guardians of the City of London, and they have been carried in the Lord Mayor's Show since the reign of Henry V.
I think it should be clearly pointed out that the City of London is NOT London, but an autonomous city inside London...similar to the Vatican city which resides inside Rome...the City houses some of the biggest banks, financial institutions and company headquarters of the world...and it does NOT report to anyone but the British crown...as you enter the City, a huge statue of a dragon greets one...mmm...dragon, gog, magog...all these images of the beast and his kingdom...makes you think doesn't it?
Anne said:
QuoteDon't you see how the Roman Empire continued? And how it wrapped its tentacles into Christiandom and set up the state of Israel? History is repeating itself.
the Roman empire has never left us (not in the so-called "western world")...our laws are based on Roman law, our structure of government is roman (senates, houses of representatives etc)...all government buildings I have seen are all built roman style...the roman strategy of "divide and conquer" still applies in modern warfare (just look how Chekoslovakia was divided and also Iraq into all kinda factions, racial and religious denominations)...the dream of Daniel about the statue rings true...the toes of iron (representing the remnants of the romans) mixed with clay, this is where we are today
@Molly
I didn't say Babylon has fallen...I'm saying it is falling...it is in its final surge (excuse the pun) before it will be hit and destroyed in a short time...
:cloud9: The problem since the beginning of NT that continues today, is that people look at the flesh/imperfections of the man God has anointed and is using, instead of what GOD is doing with and thru that man.
The reason a prophet has no honor in his own country is because everybody knew his family or him and just KNEW that no good could come out of "Nazareth". In Jerusalem He was so well known by word of mouth (by mostly the jealous Jewish leaders) that He could do no great works there because of their unbelief.
The men that God uses in a "movement" is another attempt at Him restoring something that was lost to the body. But because the wheat and the tares are raised up together, flesh comes along for the ride, and is usually the most visible after awhile, as men fall to their weaknesses. This is sad on many levels and distracting from the genuine thing that God did thru them.
The men in the word of faith movement "caught" the anointing that came from the appearance of Jehovah Rapha (God is my healer) in the Word or in person, and they used the talent of faith that they had to be a doer of the Word and not just a hearer.
My reading about Smith Wigglesworth and Kenneth Hagin (who also prayed for me and anointed me) and the things that God did thru them in the beginning of my walk, are directly related to my being alive today, because the faith to believe God for healing was "formed" in me in part by reading (or in the case of Hagin, seeing) some of God's exploits done thru them. Had I not, terminal cancer would have taken my life 13 years ago. Blessings....
Yeah, the criticisms have zero to do with what the Bible has to say about spirit, soul, body, finances, and how relationships and ministry are to be carried out; our relationship to Jesus Christ and His High Priestly ministry through unwavering faith, the principle of studious, systematic reaping of the seed sown and cultivated; the renewed mind and the transformed body that rises in Christ and His Cross far above all sin and far above all principality and power as the life is hid with Christ in God so that everytime that Christ Jesus is revealed the diligent believer is revealed with Him in glory to be the 11 talent believer in this life. Foul and ungodly things can be said about any and every group, most especially against UR folks, but that doesn't mean to not have another look at the Scriptures involved and the command of Christ Jesus where those are concerned where He's saying to follow Him.
And yes, I'm living in this body that I currently have until my Lord returns. Doesn't matter if it's 10,000 or 100,000 years from now. I've already stitched, repaired, renewed, and rebuilt the thing more than once [like an old bicycle tire that's repeatedly gone flat] on God's Word with what Proverbs 4 says and taking that as final authority regarding the life and health of my flesh. And, if the Lord wills, then others shall also live and do this or that. His provisions to me are more real to me than any of you are, but I didn't get that firmly persuaded of the Word in ten minutes. The Written Word of God is first priority in my life and final authority. I used to think that I'd seen too much of Him to remain in this world forever, but now I know the opposite is true and I've seen too much to be run off.
His plan is here, not there. Here's where we build on the rock and not there. Heaven is not my home. That's the biggest crock religion had ever come up with, although there is unquestionably a heaven of heavens that the Old Testament mentions. This earth is where I belong. This earth is my home and the people of the earth are my people, and I'm not letting the devil tear it up any more. Not without the fight/fright of his life. The prosperity of our souls and of our finances is here. First I laid up treasures in heaven, but then as 1Timothy 6 says, in it's closing part, I'm laying hold upon that life that's mine right now. The blessing of Abraham coming upon the Gentiles through Jesus Christ has never gone away. We are heirs of this world and not of some other. Yes, God will unquestionably renovate this whole thing as we stand on the Word in faith about that. But the building blocks are here with this old earth and our Bibles.
:cloud9: Amen, Martin. It grieves my spirit to hear ministers on TV talking about wanting to "go home". The Lord showed me the root of that is a spirit that wants to rob THE LORD of His body to dwell in. We are not our own, we are bought with a price.
The thing is, we all get tired sometimes of fighting the good fight and sometimes wish it was over in that all too final kind of way; not saying that never happens at all. I've wished more in the last year and a half that He would take me out of this, than at any other point in my life/walk. But I refuse to give in to a robber spirit that wants me to ignore my covenant with He who IS life, to agree with a covenant of death. If I live I live unto the Lord, and if I die, I die unto the Lord. HIS choice, not mine, and certainly not a robber spirit's. Blessings...
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on April 06, 2009, 12:23:26 PM
Quote
ok.
(have no idea what a "word of faith" crowd is.. so I guess that leaves me out.)
Sparrow, the 'Word of Faith' was a charismatic/pentecostal movement in America. As far as I'm concerned, it was a false movement filled with leaders who used the preaching of the gospel to fleece the flock and get material wealth for themselves. Google 'Word of Faith' and have a look at what you find. Kenneth Hagin was a big name in that movement. I can't think of all the others, but there was a whole bunch of them, sometimes referred to as the Kansas City Prophets. The reason I am so familiar with them is because when I was desperately looking for the truth and for God's love, I read a ton of their writings, trying to figure out what God was all about. I've had a taste of many of the camps in Babylon.
Anne
p.s. Kenneth Copeland and Oral Roberts also come to mind. But there's a whole slew of them.
Thanks. I didn't realize that is what that particular movement was called.
http://intotruth.org/wof/tract3.html
To me, it is just more confusion, more distraction taking the focus off of truth.
just my opinion.
Financial Rescue Nears GDP as Pledges Top $12.8 Trillion (Update1)
By Mark Pittman and Bob Ivry
March 31 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. government and the Federal Reserve have spent, lent or committed $12.8 trillion, an amount that approaches the value of everything produced in the country last year, to stem the longest recession since the 1930s.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=armOzfkwtCA4&refer=home
Why does the religious perspective of the end times and the single man anti-christ and the evidence of current events used to say its coming bother the people who are promoting it so much.
This God you serve in this manner has said it will happen, so why does it appear that you think Christians can stop it?
I mean, shouldn't you be rejoicing?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 06, 2009, 06:57:23 PM
Why does the religious perspective of the end times and the single man anti-christ and the evidence of current events used to say its coming bother the people who are promoting it so much.
This God you serve in this manner has said it will happen, so why does it appear that you think Christians can stop it?
I mean, shouldn't you be rejoicing?
Not when anti-christ force you or take off your head :laughing7:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 06, 2009, 06:57:23 PM
Why does the religious perspective of the end times and the single man anti-christ and the evidence of current events used to say its coming bother the people who are promoting it so much.
This God you serve in this manner has said it will happen, so why does it appear that you think Christians can stop it?
I mean, shouldn't you be rejoicing?
The antichrist stands in the place of Christ. He is a fake, deceiving the whole world. He wants to kill man; he is a murderer and a liar from the beginning.
I will rejoice when the world is no longer deceived, and God is 'tabernacling' among us.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. --Rev 21
Quote from: IceDash on April 06, 2009, 08:25:17 PM
Not when anti-christ force you or take off your head :laughing7:
Oh come on! Getting my head cut off would be sooooo perfect. It would feel great! Talk about being relieved of duty!! I'd RUN to the ax if I saw it coming with no way around it. I'd RUN TO IT :cloud9: There's a couple of issues in my life over the last couple of years where I've sorta felt like I've been repeatedly doing that
anyway. :dontknow: But I'm still running towards it rather than from it. :myahoo: :egyptdance: :Egyptdance2: :boogie: :boydance: :nod: :Yesss: Everything from our deepest pleasures to our getting butchered the hardest [into the most pieces] should be ran towards. :coolsmile:
Quote from: martincisneros on April 06, 2009, 08:43:01 PM
Quote from: IceDash on April 06, 2009, 08:25:17 PM
Not when anti-christ force you or take off your head :laughing7:
Oh come on! Getting my head cut off would be sooooo perfect. It would feel great! Talk about being relieved of duty!! I'd RUN to the ax if I saw it coming with no way around it. I'd RUN TO IT :cloud9: There's a couple of issues in my life over the last couple of years where I've sorta felt like I've been repeatedly doing that anyway. :dontknow: But I'm still running towards it rather than from it. :myahoo: :egyptdance: :Egyptdance2: :boogie: :boydance: :nod: :Yesss: Everything from our deepest pleasures to our getting butchered the hardest [into the most pieces] should be ran towards. :coolsmile:
...choose life..
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 08:46:52 PM
...choose life..
I guess that's what I've been doing, since I've been willing to fool with it at all. Much easier to have already moved on to so-called greener pastures outside of what God's said about it. Each and every step along the way, I've had half a dozen genuine [and
from the natural way of looking at it, perhaps better] alternative options. But something about the narrow road towards what He wants. You wind up spending less time repenting and trying to twist His Arm into blessing absolute bull:-) which is what the vast majority of Christians try to do. Doing it His way causes all of His lessons to have made total sense thus far rather than trying to cram His lessons into situations He didn't approve of anyway. When you're not where you're supposed to be, He's startlingly quiet and passive just watching your deal totally go to Hell 'cause He never asked you to do that to start with. But He'll micromanage every microscopic detail of what He's told you to do. It's genuinely amazing how active He'll get in someone's life about absolutely each and every single detail. :cloud9:
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 08:46:52 PM
Quote from: martincisneros on April 06, 2009, 08:43:01 PM
Quote from: IceDash on April 06, 2009, 08:25:17 PM
Not when anti-christ force you or take off your head :laughing7:
Oh come on! Getting my head cut off would be sooooo perfect. It would feel great! Talk about being relieved of duty!! I'd RUN to the ax if I saw it coming with no way around it. I'd RUN TO IT :cloud9: There's a couple of issues in my life over the last couple of years where I've sorta felt like I've been repeatedly doing that anyway. :dontknow: But I'm still running towards it rather than from it. :myahoo: :egyptdance: :Egyptdance2: :boogie: :boydance: :nod: :Yesss: Everything from our deepest pleasures to our getting butchered the hardest [into the most pieces] should be ran towards. :coolsmile:
...choose life..
Thats the rub, spiritual life yes. To actually think what you believe, "the signs of the time" meaning a belief in this bible is true and your not rejoicing?
Thats why I don't believe a one of ya. Your not rejoicing in the truth of prophecy fullfilled, most likely because you don't actually believe it yourself.
All I do is rejoice that Satan's been bound and can't deceive the nations any more. Our names are in the Lamb's book of life and things are looking up! Day by day more and more people, animals, and angels are being fed that hadn't been getting fed very much previously. The tendency of the Work of God in the earth has been towards the meeting of more and more needs. Fewer people ""proportionately"" are in need than have ever been in need since the creation of the world. Our cup runneth over :cloud9:
Quote from: martincisneros on April 06, 2009, 08:43:01 PM
Quote from: IceDash on April 06, 2009, 08:25:17 PM
Not when anti-christ force you or take off your head :laughing7:
Oh come on! Getting my head cut off would be sooooo perfect. It would feel great! Talk about being relieved of duty!! I'd RUN to the ax if I saw it coming with no way around it. I'd RUN TO IT :cloud9: There's a couple of issues in my life over the last couple of years where I've sorta felt like I've been repeatedly doing that anyway. :dontknow: But I'm still running towards it rather than from it. :myahoo: :egyptdance: :Egyptdance2: :boogie: :boydance: :nod: :Yesss: Everything from our deepest pleasures to our getting butchered the hardest [into the most pieces] should be ran towards. :coolsmile:
Not sure if I was misunderstood in what I said here, but I said it with a genuine and deep excitement about life. That's the way that I meant it. To me, life's an adventure and all of history is God's novel that He's writing. Some lives and some deaths change all of history, so my attitude is to live big and to die big. Scream like you're on a 12,000 mile [long and high] rollercoaster if it looks like this is it! LOL!
Quote from: martincisneros on April 06, 2009, 09:14:03 PM
Quote from: martincisneros on April 06, 2009, 08:43:01 PM
Quote from: IceDash on April 06, 2009, 08:25:17 PM
Not when anti-christ force you or take off your head :laughing7:
Oh come on! Getting my head cut off would be sooooo perfect. It would feel great! Talk about being relieved of duty!! I'd RUN to the ax if I saw it coming with no way around it. I'd RUN TO IT :cloud9: There's a couple of issues in my life over the last couple of years where I've sorta felt like I've been repeatedly doing that anyway. :dontknow: But I'm still running towards it rather than from it. :myahoo: :egyptdance: :Egyptdance2: :boogie: :boydance: :nod: :Yesss: Everything from our deepest pleasures to our getting butchered the hardest [into the most pieces] should be ran towards. :coolsmile:
Not sure if I was misunderstood in what I said here, but I said it with a genuine and deep excitement about life. That's the way that I meant it. To me, life's an adventure and all of history is God's novel that He's writing. Some lives and some deaths change all of history, so my attitude is to live big and to die big. Scream like you're on a 12,000 mile [long and high] rollercoaster if it looks like this is it! LOL!
I didn't understand what you are saying. Even Jesus didn't run towards death, and that was his job--so we could live and have life abundantly.
Mark 14:36
And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: ....
John 14:12
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 09:18:03 PM
Mark 14:36
And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: ....
Jesus should have received what he desired.
Unless He was sowing for something better. Sowing and reaping isn't just corn over potatoes this year, but sometimes it's sowing when it's extremely uncomfortable but when that's the only way to get the harvest you NEEEEEED... When it feels the worst and you do what needs to be done anyway with a big ol' smile, or "for the joy set before you," then those wind up being some of the biggest crops. Jesus since then has received the deepest desires of His heart, but it did mean setting aside His own temporary comfort in the way that we often have to for the greater good. Jesus was actually forsaken by God, according to Isaiah 54.
:cloud9: Martin, something hit me as I read your post. I was thinking, "I wonder why it was important for Him to experience being forsaken?"
And then it hit me that for him go thru with it anyway, was the purest form of sacrifice, because there was no expectation of reward, He was doing it because it was "right", not because He wanted to "get something."
I think we have to experience both forms of sacrifice. There is a time in our walk when we definitely knowingly sow to reap, but I think there is also a sowing that comes out of unconscious nature change without any forethought of gain of any type. Am I making sense to you here? I guess I'm trying to say for the first time, I see TWO types. Blessings....
Quote from: martincisneros on April 06, 2009, 09:06:01 PM
All I do is rejoice that Satan's been bound and can't deceive the nations any more. Our names are in the Lamb's book of life and things are looking up! Day by day more and more people, animals, and angels are being fed that hadn't been getting fed very much previously. The tendency of the Work of God in the earth has been towards the meeting of more and more needs. Fewer people ""proportionately"" are in need than have ever been in need since the creation of the world. Our cup runneth over :cloud9:
well God let satan deceive when he deceive, satan can't do anything without God's permission (like job) This is why free wills don't existed.
Were you just free to say that?
lol I don't know anymore, because everything in the bible look like God is in more control tha the devil, sorry lol That's how I see it, I can't remember where the verse or chapter where it said that God make israel stubborn so they can't understand God's way and God mad at the (hello, God did that!) also God harden Pharoah's heart so he won't let people go (well of course God control his feeling)
This is why Satan can't do anything until God said so.
So God's house is divided?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 06, 2009, 09:52:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 09:18:03 PM
Mark 14:36
And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: ....
Jesus should have received what he desired.
He did. The Father granted him that request, leaving it up to Jesus himself what he would do. Jesus had to hand himself over to them because they were rendered incapable of taking him.
2And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples.
3Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.
4Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
5They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am [he]. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
6As soon then as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground.
7Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.
8Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:
9That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none. --John 18
Quote from: martincisneros on April 06, 2009, 10:01:29 PM
Unless He was sowing for something better. Sowing and reaping isn't just corn over potatoes this year, but sometimes it's sowing when it's extremely uncomfortable but when that's the only way to get the harvest you NEEEEEED... When it feels the worst and you do what needs to be done anyway with a big ol' smile, or "for the joy set before you," then those wind up being some of the biggest crops. Jesus since then has received the deepest desires of His heart, but it did mean setting aside His own temporary comfort in the way that we often have to for the greater good. Jesus was actually forsaken by God, according to Isaiah 54.
Jesus greater desire was to do the will of the father, Jesus was like any of us in that regaurd, we want Gods will to be what we "prefer".
My point in my statement is that some here that promote that the NWO of the bioblical ent times is upon us, oh the impending doooooom.
ok, but at the same time, these people act like if people would just start walking in the spirit then all this would go away.
The issue is if the phrase "all things are possible" means what they often imply, if this "receiving" simply comes about from a person "walking in the spirit" then in reality they have no excuses to usher in the elimination of this NWO and the impending doom simply be believing enough that it would go away. But I hear them saying "they are waiting for everyone else"
I am only seeing that the biblical perspective they promote is inherantly false by the fear they themselves are in about it.
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 10:43:15 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 06, 2009, 09:52:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 09:18:03 PM
Mark 14:36
And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: ....
Jesus should have received what he desired.
He did.
That cup was not taken away.
Quote from: Paulok, but at the same time, these people act like if people would just start walking in the spirit then all this would go away.
The issue is if the phrase "all things are possible" means what they often imply, if this "receiving" simply comes about from a person "walking in the spirit" then in reality they have no excuses to usher in the elimination of this NWO and the impending doom simply be believing enough that it would go away. But I hear them saying "they are waiting for everyone else"
I am only seeing that the biblical perspective they promote is inherantly false by the fear they themselves are in about it.
This is the biblical perspective--
42And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure. --Daniel 2
Therefore, some may be giving the call of the watchmen on the walls--
Ephesians 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 06, 2009, 10:47:20 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 10:43:15 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 06, 2009, 09:52:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 09:18:03 PM
Mark 14:36
And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: ....
Jesus should have received what he desired.
He did.
That cup was not taken away.
Because of the choice of Jesus.
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 10:43:15 PM
6As soon then as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground.
:cloud9: I love it when He does that. No enemy (the carnal mind) can stand in His presence.
Paul, I don't think all on here are discussing it out of fear. God is busy dealing with a firstfruits company of sons which are being raised up for this time. Christianity as a whole has nothing to do with this, except they "graciously" and unknowingly booted us out as a tithe (firstfruits) unto the Lord.
The wheat (Spirit of Christ) and the tares (spirit of anti-christ/flesh) are being raised up at the same time, the harvest has begun (choose ye this day whom ye will serve = which one of these two), and we are going to be raised in incorruption (clothed in His Spirit) as saviors on Mt. Zion, in due season.
The darkness is getting darker, but it is in proportion to what God is doing behind the veil, that is NOT perceptible with the human eye. All is well. Blessings....
I'm not sure who has said that if everyone believed correctly that it would all go away. I for sure haven't said that. I've said that it was a race to the finish and the Scriptures indicate to me where we should be at when Christ returns. I'm after those goals, that according to Revelation 19 obviously overthrow the beast's system. My focus isn't even on any kind of "tribulation" time period. My world view has been, okay, whatever happens with that, we've also got an agenda laid out before us in the promises of God of every nation being discipled before Jesus returns. So, I'm about the will of my Father and am believing for my portion of Jesus' ministry in the earth, up to and including the obscene amounts of money that I'm spoiling the strong man of in order to get everything that God's laid out before me of my 1Thessalonians 3:8-13 calling fulfilled.
I don't care if the Antichrist is raised from the dead during the so-called tribulation as long as I've already done all of the dying that I'm going to do and am doing what Father wants from me in my part of the drama of the ages. My world view doesn't discount what could totally and completely go to hell over the next 50 years, but I personally don't see any of this mess stretching either anywhere near that long or beyond that long. I'm focused on generations with my Postmillenial view and the creation of heritage and legacy rather than focusing upon whether or not Islam takes a third of the world's heads off, whether there's an actual microchip in everybody's head in the middle east as the world community finally decides that they're all too crazy over there to not lojack, or whatever.
I genuinely don't care about those intermediate details. Perhaps I haven't been clear enough about that. I personally don't envision the world getting as far gone as the premillenialists and amillenialists are expecting. I don't believe the left behind scenario after having gone back and scrutinized every single Scripture in it's context that anyone anywhere has ever tried to say teaches that. I see the Body of Christ going forth and taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ Jesus. Obviously, I'm seeing that there's going to be quite a few of those thoughts to take captive before we have totally taken the upper hand. Nobody that's all scared of NWO is really looking beyond 25 years when you think about it. My thoughts of world dominance on the part of the Body of Christ are in terms of speaking millenially. I don't believe it'll take either the whole of this next millenium or even the whole of this next century to see the Gospel totally in charge of every single heart everywhere on the planet.
But let sin abound however far it's going to abound, and God's grace is going to just that much more abound far beyond that! That's what I'm saying.
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 10:57:32 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 06, 2009, 10:47:20 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 10:43:15 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 06, 2009, 09:52:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 09:18:03 PM
Mark 14:36
And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: ....
Jesus should have received what he desired.
He did.
That cup was not taken away.
Because of the choice of Jesus.
During his prayer his greater desire was the will of the father, the will of the father was that Jesus die for us.
So concerning the NWO, my greater desire is that prophecy is fullfilled and Jesus return.
If what you are constantly saying concerning the ills of the world are the signs of the time then I do not want any of it to stop, the teaching that leads into this is that Jesus will return soon.
YAY!!!! Keep posting your links, it just reminds me of glory coming.
My choice will not be to put a stop to any of it, if it will delay it.
Quote from: Cardinal on April 06, 2009, 10:58:59 PM
The darkness is getting darker, but it is in proportion to what God is doing behind the veil, that is NOT perceptible with the human eye. All is well. Blessings....
I'm not concerned about it, I see people telling me that I am ignorant because they think I do not pay attention to all the links and assertions they make.
My ignorance is not true, it is the disbelief in the manner of what they promote. If these events are the signs of the time, then what should I be concerned with?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 06, 2009, 11:04:17 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 10:57:32 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 06, 2009, 10:47:20 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 10:43:15 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 06, 2009, 09:52:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 09:18:03 PM
Mark 14:36
And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: ....
Jesus should have received what he desired.
He did.
That cup was not taken away.
Because of the choice of Jesus.
During his prayer his greater desire was the will of the father, the will of the father was that Jesus die for us.
So concerning the NWO, my greater desire is that prophecy is fullfilled and Jesus return.
If what you are constantly saying concerning the ills of the world are the signs of the time then I do not want any of it to stop, the teaching that leads into this is that Jesus will return soon.
YAY!!!! Keep posting your links, it just reminds me of glory coming.
My choice will not be to put a stop to any of it, if it will delay it.
Suit yourself. You're even free to go work for them. But, I would be remiss if I didn't warn against it.
Anyone doing evil is not reconciled to God.
...we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.--2Cor 5
Quote from: martincisneros on April 06, 2009, 11:03:54 PM
I'm not sure who has said that if everyone believed correctly that it would all go away.
Unless I have misunderstood, Molly is waiting for all the people to choose to believe and that will bring total peace on earth. Noname also seems to imply something along those lines.
My point is that the assertion of the teaching surrounding those typical phrases really says that one person needn't wait on anyone.
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 11:08:49 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 06, 2009, 11:04:17 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 10:57:32 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 06, 2009, 10:47:20 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 10:43:15 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 06, 2009, 09:52:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 09:18:03 PM
Mark 14:36
And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: ....
Jesus should have received what he desired.
He did.
That cup was not taken away.
Because of the choice of Jesus.
During his prayer his greater desire was the will of the father, the will of the father was that Jesus die for us.
So concerning the NWO, my greater desire is that prophecy is fullfilled and Jesus return.
If what you are constantly saying concerning the ills of the world are the signs of the time then I do not want any of it to stop, the teaching that leads into this is that Jesus will return soon.
YAY!!!! Keep posting your links, it just reminds me of glory coming.
My choice will not be to put a stop to any of it, if it will delay it.
Suit yourself. You're even free to go work for them. But, I would be remiss if I didn't warn against it.
Anyone doing evil is not reconciled to God.
...we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
--2Cor 5
Thanks for the warning, I'm not afraid of what your warning about, if I am not reconciled because I don't run around worrying about everything, THANK GOODNESS.
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 11:08:49 PM
Anyone doing evil is not reconciled to God.
Never ever?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 06, 2009, 11:09:08 PM
Quote from: martincisneros on April 06, 2009, 11:03:54 PM
I'm not sure who has said that if everyone believed correctly that it would all go away.
Unless I have misunderstood, Molly is waiting for all the people to choose to believe and that will bring total peace on earth. Noname also seems to imply something along those lines.
My point is that the assertion of the teaching surrounding those typical phrases really says that one person needn't wait on anyone.
I'm waiting for the stone cut out of the mountain without hands.
And not just me--
19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.--Rom 8
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 06, 2009, 11:04:17 PMmy greater desire is that prophecy is fullfilled and Jesus return.
If what you are constantly saying concerning the ills of the world are the signs of the time then I do not want any of it to stop, the teaching that leads into this is that Jesus will return soon.
YAY!!!! Keep posting your links, it just reminds me of glory coming.
My choice will not be to put a stop to any of it, if it will delay it.
Yeah, I hear what you're saying and we're not far from one another in our attitudes on this, that if getting to the promised land means crossing this bridge that's over a molten abyss, then let's get the sun tan lotion and refill our bottles of water 'cause we could have been crossing that bridge half an hour ago instead of sitting around and talking about how high the flames are leaping and how thin [our carnal minds think] the bridge might be getting. Let's run that sucker and get to where we've been wanting to get if it's already within view! Basically what I've been saying, though I've been taking the long way up the bridge with all of the theological trappings with dragging along the big holiday platter of stuffing into the conversation about it. I'd personally bungee jump over an inferno if the firemen wouldn't drag my butt off to jail for doing it :happy3:
Quote from: Molly on April 06, 2009, 11:16:10 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 06, 2009, 11:09:08 PM
Quote from: martincisneros on April 06, 2009, 11:03:54 PM
I'm not sure who has said that if everyone believed correctly that it would all go away.
Unless I have misunderstood, Molly is waiting for all the people to choose to believe and that will bring total peace on earth. Noname also seems to imply something along those lines.
My point is that the assertion of the teaching surrounding those typical phrases really says that one person needn't wait on anyone.
I'm waiting for the stone cut out of the mountain without hands.
And not just me--
19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.
--Rom 8
Oh I am eagerly looking forward there.
In the meantime, I will do what pertains to me.
Ro 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 06, 2009, 11:09:08 PM
Unless I have misunderstood, Molly is waiting for all the people to choose to believe and that will bring total peace on earth. Noname also seems to imply something along those lines.
Peace on earth would only achieved when there's no violence...when mankind realises that hurting one hurts all...
peace can only be achieved if there is respect for every living thing, every part of creation, no human trying to lord over another
No worries. The NWO can be stopped with these:
http://www.orgoneblasters.com/
:mshock:
Quote from: firstborn888 on April 07, 2009, 02:27:59 PM
No worries. The NWO can be stopped with these:
http://www.orgoneblasters.com/
:mshock:
lmao.....what the?!?!?!
What does the alien have to do with the bible endtime?
the website you posted is so funny......I actually enjoying reading it, (however I know I don't believe any of them) It just so funny and sad at the same time but oh well, it fun to read anyway, let see what else they said...
lol..paul is not a apostle...lol...
:cloud9: Now I've seen everything......... :sigh: Those people are either mentally unbalanced or the most brazen hucksters I've ever seen. Or both. :mshock: Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on April 07, 2009, 03:22:07 PM
:cloud9: Now I've seen everything......... :sigh: Those people are either mentally unbalanced or the most brazen hucksters I've ever seen. Or both. :mshock: Blessings....
yeah, after reading the whole thing, they only thing Sherry (the owner of that website) attack the most is not alien, it's Paul, telling us that Jesus choosed 12 apostle, not 13th and paul is destoring god's law and replacing Grace over laws, wow....
Sherry need to know one little problem: Love
However Sherry explain that Paul is saying the most important is faith and love but the most important of them all is Love and sherry claimed that if love is important than faith then why Paul asking us to have faith more than love
How distorting she is! :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:
http://www.justgivemethetruth.com/problem.htm
discussing? :laughing7:
Quote from: martincisneros on April 06, 2009, 11:19:18 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 06, 2009, 11:04:17 PMmy greater desire is that prophecy is fullfilled and Jesus return.
If what you are constantly saying concerning the ills of the world are the signs of the time then I do not want any of it to stop, the teaching that leads into this is that Jesus will return soon.
YAY!!!! Keep posting your links, it just reminds me of glory coming.
My choice will not be to put a stop to any of it, if it will delay it.
Yeah, I hear what you're saying and we're not far from one another in our attitudes on this, that if getting to the promised land means crossing this bridge that's over a molten abyss, then let's get the sun tan lotion and refill our bottles of water 'cause we could have been crossing that bridge half an hour ago instead of sitting around and talking about how high the flames are leaping and how thin [our carnal minds think] the bridge might be getting. Let's run that sucker and get to where we've been wanting to get if it's already within view! Basically what I've been saying, though I've been taking the long way up the bridge with all of the theological trappings with dragging along the big holiday platter of stuffing into the conversation about it. I'd personally bungee jump over an inferno if the firemen wouldn't drag my butt off to jail for doing it :happy3:
Well, mainly I am saying, if I was convinced anyone actually could determine without a doubt that fundamental christian theology is correct along the lines of end times, then I can't say I would want anything to get better. Why would I want to try to stop Jesus return.
The reality is that the same fundamental theology comes from the camp of ETers , comes from the same camp that created the "left behind" series that is advertized at fiction, but people believe to be truth. Same camp that seems to try to decide whos good and who is not because they don't measure up to them. And the same camp who has yet to predict it among all their attempts, but now think that they are going to again.
So I call it crap.
"His was an impenetrable darkness. I looked at him as you peer down at a man who is lying at the bottom of a precipice where the sun never shines. But I had not much time to give him, because I was helping the engine-driver to take to pieces the leaky cylinders, to straighten a bent connecting-rod, and in other such matters. I lived in an infernal mess of rust, filings, nuts, bolts, spanners, hammers, ratchet-drills--things I abominate, because I don't get on with them. I tended the little forge we fortunately had aboard; I toiled wearily in a wretched scrap-heap--unless I had the shakes too bad to stand.
"One evening coming in with a candle I was startled to hear him say a little tremulously, `I am lying here in the dark waiting for death.' The light was within a foot of his eyes. I forced myself to murmur, `Oh, nonsense!' and stood over him as if transfixed.
"Anything approaching the change that came over his features I have never seen before, and hope never to see again. Oh, I wasn't touched. I was fascinated. It was as though a veil had been rent. I saw on that ivory face the expression of sombre pride, of ruthless power, of craven terror--of an intense and hopeless despair. Did he live his life again in every detail of desire, temptation, and surrender during that supreme moment of complete knowledge? He cried in a whisper at some image, at some vision--he cried out twice, a cry that was no more than a breath:
"`The horror! The horror!'
--Joseph Conrad, The Heart of Darkness
1Pt 4:12 . Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
Phl 4:6 Do not worry about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known toward God,
Quote from: firstborn888 on April 07, 2009, 02:27:59 PM
No worries. The NWO can be stopped with these:
http://www.orgoneblasters.com/
:mshock:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Byron,
Just as I said over at the Fathers Love Forums when we discussed this on a thread over there that Articles preached and written like the articles Sherry Shriner writes in orgone busters.com would do well and would be more in line with the truth on the stage if they would just label the writings science fiction.
Just buy an orgone buster, pull up a chair, read a science fiction novel and enter the world of make believe and escape the NWO via a UFO saucer or stay and fight the NWO with an orgone buster.
Peace,
Fire Walker
Quote from: IceDash on April 07, 2009, 03:02:59 PM
Quote from: firstborn888 on April 07, 2009, 02:27:59 PM
No worries. The NWO can be stopped with these:
http://www.orgoneblasters.com/
:mshock:
lmao.....what the?!?!?!
What does the alien have to do with the bible endtime?
http://calvaryadvisor.org/9.html
"As in the days of Noah" :mshock:
Quote from: IceDash on April 07, 2009, 03:02:59 PM
Quote from: firstborn888 on April 07, 2009, 02:27:59 PM
No worries. The NWO can be stopped with these:
http://www.orgoneblasters.com/
:mshock:
lmao.....what the?!?!?!
What does the alien have to do with the bible endtime?
Is this a fansite for Stargate SG1? :laughing7:
Beware..... NWO is gonna ignite Jupiter (becomes a star)
Anyway it's clear to me now: Obama is a reptile alien that eats mice like in "V" :laughing7:
"People are moving out of the city, trying to find work," said David Martin of Wayne State University's Urban Safety Program. Those who stay "can't afford to move out."
"Property abandonment is getting so bad in Flint that some in government are talking about an extreme measure that was once unthinkable — shutting down portions of the city, officially abandoning them and cutting off police and fire service.
...
[Mayor] Brown said that as more people abandon homes, eating away at the city's tax base and creating more blight, the city might need to examine "shutting down quadrants of the city where we (wouldn't) provide services."
He did not define what that could mean — bulldozing abandoned areas, simply leaving the vacant homes to rot or some other idea entirely."
"Cul-de-sac neighborhoods once filled with the sound of backyard barbecues and playing children are falling silent. Communities like Elk Grove, Calif., and Windy Ridge, N.C., are slowly turning into ghost towns with overgrown lawns, vacant strip malls and squatters camping in empty homes."
"In its depth and suddenness, the U.S. economic and financial crisis is shockingly reminiscent of moments we have recently seen in emerging markets (and only in emerging markets): South Korea (1997), Malaysia (1998), Russia and Argentina (time and again).
...
But there's a deeper and more disturbing similarity: elite business interests—financiers, in the case of the U.S.—played a central role in creating the crisis, making ever-larger gambles, with the implicit backing of the government, until the inevitable collapse. More alarming, they are now using their influence to prevent precisely the sorts of reforms that are needed, and fast, to pull the economy out of its nosedive. The government seems helpless, or unwilling, to act against them."
http://www.blacklistednews.com/news-3860-0-13-13--.html
45 percent of world's wealth destroyed: Blackstone CEO
Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:42pm
By Megan Davies and Walden Siew
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Private equity company Blackstone Group LP (BX.N) CEO Stephen Schwarzman said on Tuesday that up to 45 percent of the world's wealth has been destroyed by the global credit crisis.
"Between 40 and 45 percent of the world's wealth has been destroyed in little less than a year and a half," Schwarzman told an audience at the Japan Society. "This is absolutely unprecedented in our lifetime."
http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUSTRE52966Z20090310
"What's pretty clear is that, if you were looking for one culprit out of the many, many, many culprits, you have to point your finger at the rating agencies," he said.
Rating companies have been the focus of intense criticism for their role in granting top "AAA" ratings for complex bonds that later plummeted in value, resulting in subsequent rating cuts, in many cases to junk status.
"Once you bought into ... the Triple A paper and it turned out to be paper that was in many situations going to end up defaulting, then you really had the makings of a global problem," he said.
:cloud9: This is an article someone sent me. Have any of you ever heard of this plan? It would seem to me that it would only make it easier to terrorists to enter our country.....I'm assuming they have not necessarily shelved it with the election of Obama......
Bush Administration Quietly Plans NAFTA Super Highway
by Jerome R. Corsi
06/12/2006
Quietly but systematically, the Bush Administration is advancing the plan to build a huge NAFTA Super Highway, four football-fields- wide, through the heart of the U.S. along Interstate 35, from the Mexican border at Laredo, Tex., to the Canadian border north of Duluth, Minnesota.
Once complete, the new road will allow containers from the Far East to enter the United States through the Mexican port of Lazaro Cardenas, bypassing the Longshoreman' s Union in the process. The Mexican trucks, without the involvement of the Teamsters Union, will drive on what will be the nation's most modern highway straight into the heart of America. The Mexican trucks will cross border in FAST lanes, checked only electronically by the new "SENTRI" system. The first customs stop will be a Mexican customs office in Kansas City, their new Smart Port complex, a facility being built for Mexico at a cost of $3 million to the U.S. taxpayers in Kansas City.
A good reason Bush does not want to secure the border with Mexico may be that the administration is trying to create express lanes for Mexican trucks to bring containers with cheap Far East goods into the heart of the U.S., all without the involvement of any U.S. union workers on the docks or in the trucks.
NEW WORLD ORDER
People seeing that they have to live their lives in a new order more humbly and not based on vanity and the false image of what it means to live the american dream.
Sounds like a good thing.
Quote from: PaulNEW WORLD ORDER
People seeing that they have to live their lives in a new order more humbly and not based on vanity and the false image of what it means to live the american dream.
Sounds like a good thing.
Yeah, let Bernie go free! Those people whose life savings he stole can just learn to lead more humble lives!
It's good for them!
:mblush:
Finally, ABC News reports that billionaire financier Allen Stamford has blasted his critics, suggesting that claims that he ran a Ponzi scheme are 'baloney, baloney, baloney'. In a tearful interview with ABC, Stamford, who has not been charged with any wrongdoing, insisted that there were assets to back up client investments and reconfirmed that he would fight for his survival and integrity.
Stamford also added that 'I've always lived very frugally. I flew around in a private jet, I had a boat, but I've always lived very frugally'.
http://news.hereisthecity.com/news/business_news/8942.cntns
:mblush:
Quote from: Molly on April 08, 2009, 06:02:33 PM
Quote from: PaulNEW WORLD ORDER
People seeing that they have to live their lives in a new order more humbly and not based on vanity and the false image of what it means to live the american dream.
Sounds like a good thing.
Yeah, let Bernie go free! Those people whose life savings he stole can just learn to lead more humble lives!
It's good for them!
:mblush:
Why would you want to let bernie go free, your nuts?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 08, 2009, 06:11:58 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 08, 2009, 06:02:33 PM
Quote from: PaulNEW WORLD ORDER
People seeing that they have to live their lives in a new order more humbly and not based on vanity and the false image of what it means to live the american dream.
Sounds like a good thing.
Yeah, let Bernie go free! Those people whose life savings he stole can just learn to lead more humble lives!
It's good for them!
:mblush:
Why would you want to let bernie go free, your nuts?
I'm just agreeing with you.
The nwo is not a bunch of crooks. It's a good vehicle allowing people to live more frugally and humbly, like Alan Stamford.
"frugal"1. economical in the use of money or resources; thrifty
2. meagre and inexpensive: a frugal meal [Latin frugi useful, temperate]
:mblush:
Quote from: Molly on April 08, 2009, 06:14:51 PM
I'm just agreeing with you.
Please direct your agreement to someone who actually said to let bernie go free. I will never agree with you on that one.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 08, 2009, 06:23:58 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 08, 2009, 06:14:51 PM
I'm just agreeing with you.
Please direct your agreement to someone who actually said to let bernie go free. I will never agree with you on that one.
You don't like Bernie? Why not?
Quote from: Molly on April 08, 2009, 06:40:15 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 08, 2009, 06:23:58 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 08, 2009, 06:14:51 PM
I'm just agreeing with you.
Please direct your agreement to someone who actually said to let bernie go free. I will never agree with you on that one.
You don't like Bernie? Why not?
Well, we always just go back and forth, so I'll pass. You like him, I don't, we can leave it at that.
The NWO are internationalist financiers and politicians who would strip us of our national sovereignty, and everything else they can get their hands on, not unlike Bernie. Everything is fair game and nothing is sacred, not even honor.
Here's the transcript to the Glenn Beck interview which aired on April 2, 2009:
GLENN BECK: Now, this morning, I read a story in the "New York Times" about Harold Koh and how I have just taking this poor man out of context, how I just – I've been smearing him. President Obama's pick to become one of the State Department's top lawyers has ignited fury among his critics, this according to the "New York Times." I guess I'm one of them now. His legal views are a threat to American democracy, I believe.
Jay Sekulow is here. He's the Chief Counsel for the American Center for Law and Justice.
You know what? I -- Jay, I want to be really, really clear here, and I want to make sure we get all the facts exactly right because .
JAY SEKULOW, AMERICAN CENTER FOR LAW AND JUSTICE: Sure.
BECK: . the "New York Times" is an apologist for this guy and they say -- oh, that Glenn Beck is, oh, well, he's just crazy, quote, "This is just an attempt to whip up hysteria."
So, tell me a little bit, in this man's own words, tell me who he is.
SEKULOW: He's a transnationalist. He believes that the United States' sovereignty and our judicial sovereignty should be subservient to the European Union or to the United Nations. I mean, if you look at what his written -- this is not by the way, you know, some are criticizing, Glenn, that we are using this term "transnational" as if it's pejorative. This is the terms he uses.
BECK: Yes.
SEKULOW: He's written the law review articles that say he's a transnationalist.
BECK: Right.
SEKULOW: And I want everybody to understand this, what Justice Scalia said about 15 years ago. When the United States Supreme Court is determining whether something is constitutional or not, they are expounding on a Constitution. Europe does not have a Constitution, so applying European standards to the United States Constitution basically takes our United States Constitution and makes it a local law only to be superseded by the European Union. And I litigate cases in Europe.
BECK: OK. So, look, here's the thing. So people understand what transnationalism is .
SEKULOW: Sure.
BECK: . and again, it's not a dirty word.
SEKULOW: No.
BECK: And this is how he describes himself.
SEKULOW: Absolutely.
BECK: What it means is -- and correct me if I'm not wrong, it is -- it is an evolutionary law. We no longer open up a textbook, go to any college and study the law. You're not going to see the quotes from the Founding Fathers or anything from the constitutional convention.
SEKULOW: Right.
BECK: You're going to see case law. This started in the 1920s, if I'm not mistaken. And what happened is, they started saying, wait a minute, evolution, if evolution is real well then people evolve, so must our understanding of things and so must the law. So now they just look to the future.
SEKULOW: Right.
BECK: . and kind of sum and we continue to move forward. Now, it's moving into other nations, correct or not?
SEKULOW: It's even more -- yes, it is correct, but it's even more than that. You mentioned the Darwinian aspect of this -- it does have a Darwinian base and that over time, universal norms come into existence. And even where you have a national sovereignty, a United States Constitution, that document no longer becomes the charter document upon which the government in the United States is to operate.
BECK: Right.
SEKULOW: And we have to meet these systems from foreign countries and apply that to United States. And here's the real danger on this and this is a danger.
Now, here's the danger. Dean Koh is a smart guy, don't -- listen, nobody should not question he's an intelligent guy. But what he is proposing is to take the State Department -- he is not going to be a senior lawyer at the State Department, he is going to be the lawyer at the State Department, the chief counsel, and he is basically saying, we take our American experience and if it doesn't mesh with the rest of the world, the rest of the world wins.
And that, frankly, is -- I call – it's -- a lot of people are calling this "lawfare," it's utilizing the law as a weapon.
BECK: Oh, yes.
SEKULOW: And that's where you got to be very, very concerned.
BECK: And, America, you know this. When they can't get you to vote for something, they kick it up to the legal -- into the legal system. If they can't win in the legal system, they kick it up to the United Nations or to the E.U. or whatever.
SEKULOW: Yes.
BECK: That's the way it works.
SEKULOW: And you really have to watch the U.N. issue here because -- and we do a lot of work at the U.N. and here's the problem -- you take those standards, for instance, the president has made the change now in the Human Rights Council, so the United States is going to join the Sudan and Cuba in the Human Rights Council. That's been not the policy for two decades. We've now changed that.
The danger, and to me, its significant is, again, it's subservient to our national interests, and what happens is, the international norms take over the U.S. norms.
BECK: OK.
SEKULOW: And the danger on that and the justices have said, be very careful when that starts happening because American sovereignty is at risk.
BECK: Real quick, I just have to say this because we have to go (ph) for a break.
SEKULOW: Yes.
BECK: The "New York Times" made this whole thing about he never called for Sharia law. I never claimed he called for Sharia law.
SEKULOW: Right.
BECK: What he was talking about, again, is transnationalism, that if this is something that is starting to grow around the world, well then the world is moving in that direction and we move as well. That is what transnationalism means, right or wrong?
SEKULOW: Look, they're doing -- absolutely – they're doing that in the United Kingdom right now. They got (INAUDIBLE) Sharia courts.
BECK: I know. I know.
SEKULOW: So, it's absolutely that standard. And there you talked about the American people should understand what that means long-term.
BECK: Yes.
SEKULOW: . for Americans' domestic interest, not good.
BECK: Thank you very much. I appreciate it.
Posted: 4/6/2009 12:00:00 AM
http://www.aclj.org/TrialNotebook/Read.aspx?id=760
:cloud9: Jay Sekulow is a Messianic Jewish believer who is chief counsel for founder Pat Robertson's American Center for Law and Justice. It was founded in reaction and concern over such things as children being expelled in grade school over doing a paper on Jesus as their hero (no kidding, some of the lawsuits they file are over unbelievable discrimination against Christians), and the forced removal of anything Christian such as the 10 commandments from public buildings.
Few people, even Christians seem to realize that is a battle going on on all fronts to silence Christians, even trying to enact laws making it a "hate crime" for ministers of the gospel to speak against homosexuality.
I had my own round with this humanistic spirit at the grade school level here because when she was that age, one my daughter's teachers took it upon herself to decide that my daughter couldn't check out biblical character themed books out of the bookmobile, and instead picked one for her that was heavily laden with witchcraft.
My daughter refused to read the book recognizing the things in it were bad, and the teacher told her she was going to give her a zero for her book report. After I went up in the air and "tap danced" on the principal's desk, when I saw the book she was going to force her to read, it was quickly decided to let my daughter do a report on a book of HER choosing, even if it meant biblical characters.
At the high school level, she was not allowed to have a bible at school, but she sat next to a Satan worshipper in one class, who was allowed to bring HIS Satanic bible to school.
If we stay silent and let them strip us of a voice, who is next? Blessings....
QuoteAfter I went up in the air and "tap danced" on the principal's desk, when I saw the book she was going to force her to read, it was quickly decided to let my daughter do a report on a book of HER choosing, even if it meant biblical characters.
Oh to be a fly on the wall... :laughing7: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 12:03:18 AM
QuoteAfter I went up in the air and "tap danced" on the principal's desk, when I saw the book she was going to force her to read, it was quickly decided to let my daughter do a report on a book of HER choosing, even if it meant biblical characters.
Oh to be a fly on the wall... :laughing7: :thumbsup:
:cloud9: Let's just say I was never as popular there as I had hoped I would be. :winkgrin:
Does it really do any good to harp on all of this...?
I'm just wondering.
Because I don't see what good there is to all of this?
Isn't life short enough?
Isn't it just going to play out how it's going to play out, no matter what?
So much negativity and paranoia and..
is it REALLY worth it???
I'm not judging.
I'm honestly asking.
I, myself have been caught up in this topic.
But.. is it worth it?
seriously.
Does anyone understand what I'm saying?
Quote from: sparrow on April 09, 2009, 02:21:45 AM
Does it really do any good to harp on all of this...?
I believe it is and if we listen to Jesus' words, we would start to remove ourselves from this "Mystery Babylon" which controls our lives and want more control...MORE government, MORE regulation, MORE IMF, MORE bailouts...Babylon is falling, do not cling to her, she's doomed
Revelation 18
1After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven. He had great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his splendor. 2With a mighty voice he shouted:
"Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!
She has become a home for demons
and a haunt for every evil[a] spirit,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird.
3For all the nations have drunk
the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries."
4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.
6Give back to her as she has given;
pay her back double for what she has done.
Mix her a double portion from her own cup.
7Give her as much torture and grief
as the glory and luxury she gave herself. In her heart she boasts,
'I sit as queen; I am not a widow,
and I will never mourn.'
8Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.
9"When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her. 10Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry:
" 'Woe! Woe, O great city,
O Babylon, city of power!
In one hour your doom has come!'
11"The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes any more— 12cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; 13cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and bodies and souls of men.
14"They will say, 'The fruit you longed for is gone from you. All your riches and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.' 15The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn 16and cry out:
" 'Woe! Woe, O great city,
dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet,
and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!
17In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!'
"Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off. 18When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim, 'Was there ever a city like this great city?' 19They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:
" 'Woe! Woe, O great city,
where all who had ships on the sea
became rich through her wealth!
In one hour she has been brought to ruin!
20Rejoice over her, O heaven!
Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets!
God has judged her for the way she treated you.' "
21Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:
"With such violence
the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,
never to be found again.
22The music of harpists and musicians, flute players and trumpeters,
will never be heard in you again.
No workman of any trade
will ever be found in you again.
The sound of a millstone
will never be heard in you again.
23The light of a lamp will never shine in you again.
The voice of bridegroom and bride
will never be heard in you again.
Your merchants were the world's great men.
By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.
24In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints,
and of all who have been killed on the earth."
to add to the above, a quote from an article by Dr. Steven Jones of God's Kingdom Ministries:
In Professor Carroll Quigley's book, Tragedy and Hope, he speaks of the New World Order that he was privileged to examine from the inside. Quigley was, of course, Bill Clinton's professor, and his book was very revealing. Unfortunately, it was too long for any but the most serious to read. He wrote the book to promote this New World Order. The organizers were too hidden, he thought. He wanted to publicize it as a good thing, and in so doing, he confirmed many things that are often relegated to the "conspiracy theory" trash bin.
On page 324, he writes something of great importance:
"...nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. The system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert by secret agreements arrived at in frequent private meetings and conferences. The apex of the system was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basil, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank . . . sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."
Obama Bow to Saudi King Labeled 'Shocking'
Wednesday, April 8, 2009 5:50 PM
By: Jim Meyers
In what's been called a "shocking display of fealty to a foreign potentate," President Barack Obama bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia at the Group of 20 summit meeting in London.
"The bow was an extraordinary protocol violation," The Washington Times observed in an editorial on Tuesday.
"Such an act is a traditional obeisance befitting a king's subjects, not his peer. There is no precedent for U.S. presidents bowing to Saudi or any other royals," the editorial said.
Obama offered King Abdullah a deep and prolonged bow from the waist when he met him at the summit, which brought together the leaders of the world's largest economies on April 2.
"No Americans of any station are required to bow to royalty," the Times stated. "It is one of the pillars of American exceptionalism that our country rejected traditional caste divisions."
The Times editorial also opined that Obama's bow "to the Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques does not help his image with those who believe he is secretly a Muslim, and why he chose to bow only to the Saudi king and not to any other royal remains unexplained."
www.newsmax.com
:cloud9: I read that in the news. It just keeps getting better and better, doesn't it? :sigh: :mshock:
Quote from: Cardinal on April 09, 2009, 03:29:03 PM
:cloud9: I read that in the news. It just keeps getting better and better, doesn't it? :sigh: :mshock:
Yeah, so suddenly we are not a Christian nation, but we bow to a muslim king as if we are a subject to him.
I'm getting more confused and arrogant by the minute.
If only the nwo would take over so I know how to act--but I suspect it will be like a feudal landless peasant who eats dirt.
U.S. Under Siege from Chinese, Russian Cyber-Attackers
Wednesday, April 8, 2009 6:52 PM
WASHINGTON - U.S. concerns about the potential for cyber-attacks on critical infrastructure extended to the American electrical power grid on Wednesday and experts pointed the finger anew at Chinese hackers, among others.
U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano told reporters the power grid is vulnerable to potentially disabling computer attacks, while declining to comment on reports that an intrusion had taken place.
"The vulnerability is something that the Department of Homeland Security and the energy sector have known about for years," she said. "We acknowledge that ... in this world, in an increasingly cyber world, these are increasing risks."
http://www.newsmax.com/headlines/cyberattacks_power_grid/2009/04/08/201226.html
Ok this is typical. They are sitting back watching foreign agents hack into our electrical grid, which includes our nuclear power plants, But, the obvious solution, which is a private computer network, and/or breachproof software, is never achieved. Such intrusions should never happen without heads rolling. Even one such intrusion is unforgivable.
But, what they are likely to do is use such threats to take over the net itself and keep the american people off it--because as we know the real threat to the nwo is, and always has been, the american people.
But of course the new article means YOUR bowing in submission. Yes of course.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 09, 2009, 03:54:36 PM
But of course the new article means YOUR bowing in submission. Yes of course.
Yes, because he represents me to the world.
Just like the whole world thought I was invading Iraq.
That's how it works.
:cloud9: Well, I assume he has people that advise him on matters of protocol and this was not just a beginner's mistake. :mshock:
So if he knew and did it anyway, that could not bode well for us. He just doesn't get that you don't have to do physical violence to get their attention, but you do have to be mindful of not showing any sign of weakness to these people, because they have publicly stated they want a world wide jihad. The Saudi's are supposed to be our allies, but if push came to shove they'd have no choice but to turn their backs and join their Muslim brothers. So courting their favor is a waste of time, at the least.
I read that about the hackers, too. They have dumbed down our educational system so we're so far behind some of the other nations it's ridiculous, so there's going to be a corresponding science and technical gap in the succeeding generations. Blessings...
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 03:57:10 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 09, 2009, 03:54:36 PM
But of course the new article means YOUR bowing in submission. Yes of course.
Yes, because he represents me to the world.
Just like the whole world thought I was invading Iraq.
That's how it works.
I thought it was good. He is getting the usual pompous arrogance that people complain about america out of the way so they will be more willing to talk.
Thats what many want more than War, so get over it.
If the world thinks we are more respectful then thats a great thing.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 09, 2009, 04:12:12 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 03:57:10 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 09, 2009, 03:54:36 PM
But of course the new article means YOUR bowing in submission. Yes of course.
Yes, because he represents me to the world.
Just like the whole world thought I was invading Iraq.
That's how it works.
I thought it was good. He is getting the usual pompous arrogance that people complain about america out of the way so they will be more willing to talk.
Thats what many want more than War, so get over it.
If the world thinks we are more respectful then thats a great thing.
We just don't seem to be able to get it right, do we?
The opposite of invading a muslim country is not bowing to a muslim king.
And, we are a Christian country, so why lie about it? Unless that's the way he sees it.
Anger and covert anger are not the answers. Truth is and being true to ourselves, if we can still remember who we are.
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 04:22:51 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 09, 2009, 04:12:12 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 03:57:10 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 09, 2009, 03:54:36 PM
But of course the new article means YOUR bowing in submission. Yes of course.
Yes, because he represents me to the world.
Just like the whole world thought I was invading Iraq.
That's how it works.
I thought it was good. He is getting the usual pompous arrogance that people complain about america out of the way so they will be more willing to talk.
Thats what many want more than War, so get over it.
If the world thinks we are more respectful then thats a great thing.
We just don't seem to be able to get it right, do we?
The opposite of invading a muslim country is not bowing to a muslim king.
And, we are a Christian country, so why lie about it? Unless that's the way he sees it.
Anger and covert anger are not the answers. Truth is and being true to ourselves, if we can still remember who we are.
I know who I am and who we are. Not a problem here.
It's strange to me that at the same time we were invading two muslim countries for no apparent reason, I mean to fight terrorists, there have been these huge mosques springing up and being built in the area where I live. Strange.
I am not a conspiracy theorist. I am a coincidence theorist. I notice strange coincidences. And now my president is bowing to muslim kings. More strange coincidences there.
But, we have our own oil here, the biggest oil reserves in the world, the Bakken oil fields, which by some other strange coincidence cannot be drilled. If not for coincidence, we do not have to bow to anyone but our LORD.
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 04:38:58 PM
It's strange to me that at the same time we were invading two muslim countries for no apparent reason, I mean to fight terrorists, there have been these huge mosques springing up and being built in the area where I live. Strange.
I am not a conspiracy theorist. I am a coincidence theorist. I notice strange coincidences. And now my president is bowing to muslim kings. More strange coincidences there.
But, we have our own oil here, the biggest oil reserves in the world, the Bakken oil fields, which by some other strange coincidence cannot be drilled. If not for coincidence, we do not have to bow to anyone but our LORD.
Well, I can't help your identity crisis, sorry.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 09, 2009, 04:48:25 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 04:38:58 PM
It's strange to me that at the same time we were invading two muslim countries for no apparent reason, I mean to fight terrorists, there have been these huge mosques springing up and being built in the area where I live. Strange.
I am not a conspiracy theorist. I am a coincidence theorist. I notice strange coincidences. And now my president is bowing to muslim kings. More strange coincidences there.
But, we have our own oil here, the biggest oil reserves in the world, the Bakken oil fields, which by some other strange coincidence cannot be drilled. If not for coincidence, we do not have to bow to anyone but our LORD.
Well, I can't help your identity crisis, sorry.
I have no identity crisis, nor would I ever ask you for help.
So let's get that off the table.
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 04:58:43 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 09, 2009, 04:48:25 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 04:38:58 PM
It's strange to me that at the same time we were invading two muslim countries for no apparent reason, I mean to fight terrorists, there have been these huge mosques springing up and being built in the area where I live. Strange.
I am not a conspiracy theorist. I am a coincidence theorist. I notice strange coincidences. And now my president is bowing to muslim kings. More strange coincidences there.
But, we have our own oil here, the biggest oil reserves in the world, the Bakken oil fields, which by some other strange coincidence cannot be drilled. If not for coincidence, we do not have to bow to anyone but our LORD.
Well, I can't help your identity crisis, sorry.
I have no identity crisis, nor would I ever ask you for help.
So let's get that off the table.
The fact that you so need for us to be a "christian" nation and find it strange that muslims build mosques in america, oh yes you have an identity crisis.
I can't help you, some people cry for help without asking directly.
Whatever is off the table, does bother me molly, don't care. I would help you if I could whether you ask or not.
Sorry your so offended by the thought. Speaks more than you could ever deny.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 09, 2009, 05:03:24 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 04:58:43 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 09, 2009, 04:48:25 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 04:38:58 PM
It's strange to me that at the same time we were invading two muslim countries for no apparent reason, I mean to fight terrorists, there have been these huge mosques springing up and being built in the area where I live. Strange.
I am not a conspiracy theorist. I am a coincidence theorist. I notice strange coincidences. And now my president is bowing to muslim kings. More strange coincidences there.
But, we have our own oil here, the biggest oil reserves in the world, the Bakken oil fields, which by some other strange coincidence cannot be drilled. If not for coincidence, we do not have to bow to anyone but our LORD.
Well, I can't help your identity crisis, sorry.
I have no identity crisis, nor would I ever ask you for help.
So let's get that off the table.
The fact that you so need for us to be a "christian" nation and find it strange that muslims build mosques in america, oh yes you have an identity crisis.
I can't help you, some people cry for help without asking directly.
Whatever is off the table, does bother me molly, don't care. I would help you if I could whether you ask or not.
Sorry your so offended by the thought. Speaks more than you could ever deny.
I don't have a 'need' for us to be a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation, Praise God.
God has put me in a position where I do not have to ask someone like you for help, which would not have been the case even 100 years ago. So I am living in this little gap of freedom, again Praise God, and would hope the same for all the people of the world, but most especially for our dear America--especially for those who believe.
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 05:08:17 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 09, 2009, 05:03:24 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 04:58:43 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 09, 2009, 04:48:25 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 04:38:58 PM
It's strange to me that at the same time we were invading two muslim countries for no apparent reason, I mean to fight terrorists, there have been these huge mosques springing up and being built in the area where I live. Strange.
I am not a conspiracy theorist. I am a coincidence theorist. I notice strange coincidences. And now my president is bowing to muslim kings. More strange coincidences there.
But, we have our own oil here, the biggest oil reserves in the world, the Bakken oil fields, which by some other strange coincidence cannot be drilled. If not for coincidence, we do not have to bow to anyone but our LORD.
Well, I can't help your identity crisis, sorry.
I have no identity crisis, nor would I ever ask you for help.
So let's get that off the table.
The fact that you so need for us to be a "christian" nation and find it strange that muslims build mosques in america, oh yes you have an identity crisis.
I can't help you, some people cry for help without asking directly.
Whatever is off the table, does bother me molly, don't care. I would help you if I could whether you ask or not.
Sorry your so offended by the thought. Speaks more than you could ever deny.
I don't have a 'need' for us to be a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation, Praise God.
God has put me in a position where I do not have to ask someone like you for help, which would not have been the case even 100 years ago. So I am living in this little gap of freedom, again Praise God, and would hope the same for all the people of the world, but most especially for our dear America--especially for those who believe.
Great, then there is no worries about muslim mosques in your christian nation, thats awesome, glad you identify what the term really means.
Quote from: Paul HGreat, then there is no worries about muslim mosques in your christian nation, thats awesome, glad you identify what the term really means.
I never mentioned it as a 'worry.' I mentioned it as a coincidence. If you would be so kind as to hear what I am saying.
I said it is a coincidence that the same groups whose nations we are invading because they are 'terrorists' are, at the same time, building mosques everywhere here. Two opposing facts juxtaposed should not be too difficult to keep track of.
It is also a coincidence that we need pat acts to severely abridge and limit the God given privacy and rights of the American people because of terrorists, while at the same time leaving our borders wide open for any kind of person or criminal and his wares to be smuggled in.
These facts are not lost on any except the most challenged.
Well... some muslims may know more of God's truth than some christians. Anything is possible with God.
Look at the "christians" who paint a sadistical, evil, schizophrenic picture of God.
Truth is truth no matter what type of building a person is sitting in, or what name they mistakenly call someone.
No one sees clearly. T'is far better a muslim seeking love than a christian seeking vengenance.
What difference does it make if a mosque is being built or a church is being built?
Who cares? Human beings have a right to seek out and find truth in whatever way they can.
We are all brothers and sisters at our core, just trying to make it back home.
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 05:54:20 PM
I never mentioned it as a 'worry.' I mentioned it as a coincidence. If you would be so kind as to hear what I am saying.
You do not have to say the word, to show that you are.
Quote
These facts are not lost on any except the most challenged.
Sorry that they are lost on you. I cannot help you with that either. Your cries for help I do acknowledge though.
One day you will know how to act regaurdless of the situation, rather than having to wait on it.
Praise God
So does talking about the "New World Order" bring out love in people...
or strife? Does it stir within you good stuff or not so good stuff?
Seems all the people that I know and read online in forums (there are a LOT of forums) are all filled with angst, and fear and hatred, and paranoia. I understand the need to fight wrongs... but for some, it gets out of control and takes over until there is not much love, gentleness, kindness in them. Strife starts to come way easier to them than love and patience. I'm thinking that's not a good thing when you start to get to that point. How are we, who know how much God loves us, any different when we spew the same fear, anger, hatred and angst? I think it helps the cause of darkness more than the cause of light when this happens. Darkness is just what's left over when there is no love present, agreed?
All human beings are children of God. Even the ones who do the most wrong.
All just children of God. Fight darkness, but don't fight people.
People were all pure once... then walking through this world of knowledge of good and evil, walking through this present darkness.... the darkness starts to form hard scales on a person. Swing the hammer at those hard scales, chip away at the darkness. Don't chip away at the person. Like it or not, that person *IS* your brother. Don't seek to destroy the person, only the darkness. In whatever way you can. Same goes for yourself. Be more gentle with yourself and others. A little gentleness can go a long way.
Just talking out loud here.
Strife of course.
If I do not see the worlds events as the NWO worry warts do then plenty of strife comes my way from them.
I won't deny carrying around a can of gasoline for entertainment purposes though. :happy3:
Quote from: sparrow on April 09, 2009, 06:18:13 PM
Well... some muslims may know more of God's truth than some christians. Anything is possible with God.
Look at the "christians" who paint a sadistical, evil, schizophrenic picture of God.
Truth is truth no matter what type of building a person is sitting in, or what name they mistakenly call someone.
No one sees clearly. T'is far better a muslim seeking love than a christian seeking vengenance.
What difference does it make if a mosque is being built or a church is being built?
Who cares? Human beings have a right to seek out and find truth in whatever way they can.
We are all brothers and sisters at our core, just trying to make it back home.
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
It's not a matter of what difference does it make. It's a matter of strange coincidences which contradict themselves.
1)We invade two muslim countries, killing and/or displacing over 1 million muslims
2)We identify muslims as 'terrorists' to justify the above
3)Muslim mosques start springing up in our country at the same time
4)We pass laws abridging the God given rights of Americans to protect us from 'terrorists'
5)Our borders are left wide open to the smuggling in of any kind of person or criminal or terrorist and their wares
6)Nothing has stopped the illegal drug trade, in fact it is getting worse
7)Cameras have gone up on every street corner
8)All of our security systems from the pentagon to the electric grid are routinely breeched by foreign agents
9)Americans are subject to no fly lists and forced to remove their shoes before boarding planes
Such coincidences would be confusing unless somebody is lying to us to enforce their own agenda. That is, if any of these ridiculous changes in the law or wars were really meant to keep us safe, the other contradictory facts, such as wide open borders, would not be happening at the same time.
And just to be honest here, I'm saying what I'm saying because not too long ago... I got sucked into a lot of this type of thing, (new world order stuff). I know what it did to me and did to my spirit. I jumped back out of it and stood back and saw just how dark it can get. I'm not saying to be blind to what is going on around you, but you also can't let it suck you in. This world is temporary. We all know that. Do what you can to put more love in the world, instead of focusing on every bad thing this world offers. It's just not worth it...
The "muslim / terrorist" relationship has came more from the Christian influence in this nation than any other source.
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 06:41:33 PM
Quote from: sparrow on April 09, 2009, 06:18:13 PM
Well... some muslims may know more of God's truth than some christians. Anything is possible with God.
Look at the "christians" who paint a sadistical, evil, schizophrenic picture of God.
Truth is truth no matter what type of building a person is sitting in, or what name they mistakenly call someone.
No one sees clearly. T'is far better a muslim seeking love than a christian seeking vengenance.
What difference does it make if a mosque is being built or a church is being built?
Who cares? Human beings have a right to seek out and find truth in whatever way they can.
We are all brothers and sisters at our core, just trying to make it back home.
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
It's not a matter of what difference does it make. It's a matter of strange coincidences which contradict themselves.
1)We invade two muslim countries, killing and/or displacing over 1 million muslims
2)We identify muslims as 'terrorists' to justify the above
3)Muslim mosques start springing up in our country at the same time
4)We pass laws abridging the God given rights of Americans to protect us from 'terrorists'
5)Our borders are left wide open to the smuggling in of any kind of person or criminal or terrorist and their wares
6)Nothing has stopped the illegal drug trade, in fact it is getting worse
7)Cameras have gone up on every street corner
8)All of our security systems from the pentagon to the electric grid are routinely bridged by foreign agents
Such coincidences would be confusing unless somebody is lying to us to enforce their own agenda. That is, if any of these ridiculous changes in the law or wars were really meant to keep us safe, the other contradictory facts, such as wide open borders, would not be happening at the same time.
But Molly...
Why should ANY of this surprise us?
We are living in a world where MANKIND rules.
This is what God is showing us.
That WE CANNOT DO IT ON OUR OWN.
WE NEED HIM.
So why are we getting all in a twist when stuff is happening just as it should????
Acknowledge it.
and move on.
and try to put more love in the world.
Constantly putting your focus on ALL The wrong in the world, just creates THAT much more darkness.
Maybe you will say I am blind and I'm just a mindless sheep.
I see quite the opposite.
I refuse to be dragged into the darkness, anymore.
It is not worth it.
We ALL KNOW the world is FALLEN.
So when there are signs of it everywhere.... why should we be aghast??
We shouldn't.
Quote from: sparrow on April 09, 2009, 06:43:56 PM
And just to be honest here, I'm saying what I'm saying because not too long ago... I got sucked into a lot of this type of thing, (new world order stuff). I know what it did to me and did to my spirit. I jumped back out of it and stood back and saw just how dark it can get. I'm not saying to be blind to what is going on around you, but you also can't let it suck you in. This world is temporary. We all know that. Do what you can to put more love in the world, instead of focusing on every bad thing this world offers. It's just not worth it...
So would you have stood back while Hitler took over Germany, too?
Most Christians did. Germany was one of the strongest Christian countries in Europe during the time of Hitler.
But, he never would have succeeded without the explicit or passive co-operation of the German people.
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 06:48:40 PM
Quote from: sparrow on April 09, 2009, 06:43:56 PM
And just to be honest here, I'm saying what I'm saying because not too long ago... I got sucked into a lot of this type of thing, (new world order stuff). I know what it did to me and did to my spirit. I jumped back out of it and stood back and saw just how dark it can get. I'm not saying to be blind to what is going on around you, but you also can't let it suck you in. This world is temporary. We all know that. Do what you can to put more love in the world, instead of focusing on every bad thing this world offers. It's just not worth it...
So would you have stood back while Hitler took over Germany, too?
Most Christians did. Germany was one of the strongest Christian countries in Europe during the time of Hitler.
But, he never would have succeeded without the explicit or passive co-operation of the German people.
Why do you think I would have just stood back, if there was something that I could do?
That doesn't make sense.
And "Christian" is a label that means very little to me.
What IS a christian? how do I know if someone is a "christian"??
Someone can scream all night and day that they are christian, but if they believe that God is a sick monster...then they are not understanding Christ at all.
Quote from: sparrow on April 09, 2009, 06:47:21 PM
We ALL KNOW the world is FALLEN.
So when there are signs of it everywhere.... why should we be aghast??
We shouldn't.
Blaming this NWO is actually the easy way out. Not arguing your point. The greater problem is the large amount of people who have forgotten how to help others for the sake of helping them rather than waiting around for some sign as to why they should.
Sure, someone can post large amounts of web news articles and say see see the NWO is coming, but it is useless.
If I buy goceries for a co worker who is struggling, what the hell difference will the NWO make? NONE
Quote from: sparrow on April 09, 2009, 06:56:29 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 06:48:40 PM
Quote from: sparrow on April 09, 2009, 06:43:56 PM
And just to be honest here, I'm saying what I'm saying because not too long ago... I got sucked into a lot of this type of thing, (new world order stuff). I know what it did to me and did to my spirit. I jumped back out of it and stood back and saw just how dark it can get. I'm not saying to be blind to what is going on around you, but you also can't let it suck you in. This world is temporary. We all know that. Do what you can to put more love in the world, instead of focusing on every bad thing this world offers. It's just not worth it...
So would you have stood back while Hitler took over Germany, too?
Most Christians did. Germany was one of the strongest Christian countries in Europe during the time of Hitler.
But, he never would have succeeded without the explicit or passive co-operation of the German people.
Why do you think I would have just stood back, if there was something that I could do?
That doesn't make sense.
And "Christian" is a label that means very little to me.
What IS a christian? how do I know if someone is a "christian"??
Someone can scream all night and day that they are christian, but if they believe that God is a sick monster...then they are not understanding Christ at all.
Because I assume you would be saying the same thing to your fellow Germans who were sounding the alarm as Hitler shut down the Republic of Germany, made himself dictator, starting arresting German citizens who were opposed to him, and so forth. These things happen in small steps, you know. Hitler came to power in 1933. It was not until the late 30's, early 40's that his truly monstrous programs for his people started to be implemented on a grand scale.
A Christian is someone who believes their savior is the Lord Jesus Christ. Other than that, any other doctrine is up for grabs--because, unlike other religions, we have the freedom to enter into our own personal relationship with God.
You do reach a point under a tyrannical government where is difficult to help yourself, much less anybody else.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 09, 2009, 06:57:22 PM
If I buy goceries for a co worker who is struggling, what the hell difference will the NWO make? NONE
Very true...
inspiring too.
Thanks.
Quote from: sparrow on April 09, 2009, 07:01:54 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 09, 2009, 06:57:22 PM
If I buy goceries for a co worker who is struggling, what the hell difference will the NWO make? NONE
Very true...
inspiring too.
Thanks.
Because if you say or think the 'wrong thing' you won't have the money to buy your neighbor groceries, if there are indeed any groceries to be bought. That's the difference the nwo will make.
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 07:00:45 PM
Because I assume you would be saying the same thing to your fellow Germans who were sounding the alarm as Hitler shut down the Republic of Germany, made himself dictator, starting arresting German citizens who were opposed to him, and so forth. These things happen in small steps, you know. Hitler came to power in 1933. It was not until the late 30's, early 40's that his truly monstrous programs for his people started to be implemented on a grand scale.
A Christian is someone who believes their savior is the Lord Jesus Christ. Other than that, any other doctrine is up for grabs--because, unlike other religions, we have the freedom to enter into our own personal relationship with God.
Not sure what else I can say here, Molly.
You and I are just not seeing things from the same perspective.
Peace to you.
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 07:03:16 PM
Quote from: sparrow on April 09, 2009, 07:01:54 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 09, 2009, 06:57:22 PM
If I buy goceries for a co worker who is struggling, what the hell difference will the NWO make? NONE
Very true...
inspiring too.
Thanks.
Because if you say or think the 'wrong thing' you won't have the money to buy your neighbor groceries, if there are indeed any groceries to be bought. That's the difference the nwo will make.
Molly... You're getting way too sucked in. I'm telling you right now. You are getting WAY TOO SUCKED IN.
It is tarnishing your spirit, girl...
I say this not mockingly... but out of respect.
I hope you take it that way. know that I'm not a jerk...
Just don't want this fear and anger to consume you.
that's all.
Quote from: SparrowNot sure what else I can say here, Molly.
You and I are just not seeing things from the same perspective.
Peace to you.
Ok. I spent a lot of time as a child, thinking about what it would be like to live in Nazi Germany,wondering if I would have the strength of character to risk my life to save others. I have always paid attention to history because history repeats. Satan has no imagination whatsoever. He just keeps doing the same thing over and over again--and he will--until some day, the people of the world say to him STOP.
Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 07:03:16 PM
Quote from: sparrow on April 09, 2009, 07:01:54 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 09, 2009, 06:57:22 PM
If I buy goceries for a co worker who is struggling, what the hell difference will the NWO make? NONE
Very true...
inspiring too.
Thanks.
Because if you say or think the 'wrong thing' you won't have the money to buy your neighbor groceries, if there are indeed any groceries to be bought. That's the difference the nwo will make.
Nope thats the Christian fundamentalist dogma and they cannot see the reality of things for their own doctrine. They cannot see that taking the mark of the beast is actually what Christians do when they think everything must be "christian".
They cannot see that their idea of a "New" "World" "Order" of Christians with the expectation that the "New" "World" be in "Order" conforming to their interpretation of scripture is indeed the evil spirit we are to resist.
What is happening is that the inhabitants of the EARTH are learning righteousness and that the fundamental organization of Christianity is babylon is being revealed to them and babylon is seeing its clutches slipping and they are afraid.
So, it may be that you won't have groceries because indeed you took the mark.
Tell that to those who lived under atheistic communism for 70 years.
Oh, but the 100 million who were murdered won't be able to hear you.
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 07:25:13 PM
Tell that to those who lived under communism for 70 years.
Oh, but the 100 million who were murdered won't be able to hear you.
Not intending to tell them anything so what your saying is mute.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 09, 2009, 07:29:34 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 07:25:13 PM
Tell that to those who lived under communism for 70 years.
Oh, but the 100 million who were murdered won't be able to hear you.
Not intending to tell them anything so what your saying is mute.
communism and fascism is the face of the nwo.
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 07:30:51 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 09, 2009, 07:29:34 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 07:25:13 PM
Tell that to those who lived under communism for 70 years.
Oh, but the 100 million who were murdered won't be able to hear you.
Not intending to tell them anything so what your saying is mute.
communism and fascism is the face of the nwo.
As opposed to the Christendom face of the same likeness. They are of their father the devil.
It is the people who are not afraid of not conforming to either that will make the difference.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 09, 2009, 07:32:36 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 07:30:51 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 09, 2009, 07:29:34 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 07:25:13 PM
Tell that to those who lived under communism for 70 years.
Oh, but the 100 million who were murdered won't be able to hear you.
Not intending to tell them anything so what your saying is mute.
communism and fascism is the face of the nwo.
As opposed to the Christendom face of the same likeness. They are of their father the devil.
It is the people who are not afraid of not conforming to either that will make the difference.
You really have a chip on your shoulder about Christianity. But that has nothing to do with me. I love the Lord Jesus and will continue to love him no matter what, and no matter what you say. Christianity in the person of our founders gave me my freedom.
The likes of Hagee etc most likely work for the nwo, unless he just can't read his Bible and see that it says the Messiah already has come, and that his name is Jesus. The word, 'Christ' means Messiah.
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 07:34:47 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 09, 2009, 07:32:36 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 07:30:51 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 09, 2009, 07:29:34 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 07:25:13 PM
Tell that to those who lived under communism for 70 years.
Oh, but the 100 million who were murdered won't be able to hear you.
Not intending to tell them anything so what your saying is mute.
communism and fascism is the face of the nwo.
As opposed to the Christendom face of the same likeness. They are of their father the devil.
It is the people who are not afraid of not conforming to either that will make the difference.
You really have a chip on your shoulder about Christianity. But that has nothing to do with me.
Of course it don't.
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2009, 05:54:20 PM
I said it is a coincidence that the same groups whose nations we are invading because they are 'terrorists' are, at the same time, building mosques everywhere here. Two opposing facts juxtaposed should not be too difficult to keep track of.
It is also a coincidence that we need pat acts to severely abridge and limit the God given privacy and rights of the American people because of terrorists, while at the same time leaving our borders wide open for any kind of person or criminal and his wares to be smuggled in.
These facts are not lost on any except the most challenged.
:cloud9: I see your point Molly. I think it IS happening, it WILL be bad for awhile (who knows how long), and HE is the ONLY hope any of us have. Blessings....
Now this is scary, I believe it, the NWO is real.
http://www.nwo4life.net/
I have this weird dream, I am hoping someone may understand what it mean:
I was reading a bible and I saw three color that go like this: Black
Blue
Red
3 differant color and some bad guys reading it and trying to do something with the bible, looking for clues, they want power, and I talk to one of man who have pyshic gift and told him "What the bad guys doing with the bible and the colors?" and he thinking in his head and saw the future and said "something not good"
I woke up
What the heck it mean and I have a feeling my dream is talking about the nwo and Obama...
check this out: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=75858
and this:
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message736961/pg1
This is interesting, they cut off Ron Paul off, this is very interesting!
(Moderator's note...Interesting links..note of caution...following the Ron Paul video, the language in the comments is definitely 'R' rated and not endorsed by TM)
This thread's about to drive me running and screaming into full preterism and away from anything Biblical. And I mean FULL preterism. Shutting down the thread's not the problem on this one with all of the premillenialism and amillenialism about the devil is coming, the devil is coming, the devil is coming -- the red coats! -- gasp!! -- can't you see them!!! -- the devil is coming, the devil is coming, the devil is coming! Shut this one down and it's just going to spill over into some 666 thread or some false light abuse of Revelation 17 and 18.
Seems to me like some people were absolutely molested with Hal Lindsey stuff when they were younger and never have found their way into a Bible, but keep running to the current events to get their spiritual fix on more heralding of AntiChrist. I guess I'm heading back into Book of Revelation studies that I was genuinely hoping to be on a Sabbatical from, 'cause I was on mental overload when I realized the allusion to the ancient myth of Europa riding the beast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(mythology)), but it's between that and trashing my Bible tonight figuring that I'm way too positive about everything to have anything to do with such a pessimistically lost to the devil Christ Jesus whose scepter obviously rusted a long time ago in the grave along with his body. If in the next life only we have hope, then His conquest of death is a total sham!
I'm annoyed, but not in any kind of crisis of faith as the above might indicate. I'm genuinely hoping I'm not going to be perpetually jet lagged until my faith comes to harvest on something that God's lit a fire under my butt again this week about pressing through with Him about. I'm going to go and tithe for a few hours to snap myself out of this half exhausted, half wanting to choke something emotional sensitivity that I've got right now. The most insidious principalities, powers, and rulers of darkness at Satan's command are spirits of conspiracy that see a conspiracy behind every Bush. Chokes the Word absolutely every single time and the Word [helplessly] brings nothing to harvest. It's the most seductive thing that Satan has. It's more delicious to the carnal mind than money, and it's a blessing blocker 'cause it puts everything in your mouth that the Bible says you're absolutely never supposed to say. Upon a careful rereading of the context 75 to 100 times, the first 8 chapters of Isaiah call a spirit of conspiracy the spirit of rebellion: "You are not to say, 'It is a conspiracy!' In regard to all that this people call a conspiracy, And you are not to fear what they fear or be in dread of it."
At first, it seems like he's describing apocalyptic events, but as you read carefully, he's talking about all of this mess of who's going to get who. One of those places where the chapter number and verse number designations really do us all a disservice. I guess it's sorta like reading through Job where with that book, it's when you come to the end and find God calling all of Job's friends total blasphemers teetering on Him torching 'em if it weren't for His faithful intercessor, Job, who has been transformed by God into the fulfillment of the very need he identified, and in doing so fulfilled the law of Christ and experienced his own new heavens and new earth where righteousness dwelt for the rest of his life in his own Garden of Eden. As James said in the New Testament, when you're looking at all of these world events, consider the perseverance of Job and the end intended by the Lord through his refusal to call conspiracy all that his friends were calling conspiracy.
Quote from: martincisneros on April 12, 2009, 05:14:51 AM
This thread's about to drive me running and screaming into full preterism and away from anything Biblical. And I mean FULL preterism. Shutting down the thread's not the problem on this one with all of the premillenialism and amillenialism about the devil is coming, the devil is coming, the devil is coming -- the red coats! -- gasp!! -- can't you see them!!! -- the devil is coming, the devil is coming, the devil is coming! Shut this one down and it's just going to spill over into some 666 thread or some false light abuse of Revelation 17 and 18.
Seems to me like some people were absolutely molested with Hal Lindsey stuff when they were younger and never have found their way into a Bible, but keep running to the current events to get their spiritual fix on more heralding of AntiChrist. I guess I'm heading back into Book of Revelation studies that I was genuinely hoping to be on a Sabbatical from, 'cause I was on mental overload when I realized the allusion to the ancient myth of Europa riding the beast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(mythology)), but it's between that and trashing my Bible tonight figuring that I'm way too positive about everything to have anything to do with such a pessimistically lost to the devil Christ Jesus whose scepter obviously rusted a long time ago in the grave along with his body. If in the next life only we have hope, then His conquest of death is a total sham!
I'm annoyed, but not in any kind of crisis of faith as the above might indicate. I'm genuinely hoping I'm not going to be perpetually jet lagged until my faith comes to harvest on something that God's lit a fire under my butt again this week about pressing through with Him about. I'm going to go and tithe for a few hours to snap myself out of this half exhausted, half wanting to choke something emotional sensitivity that I've got right now. The most insidious principalities, powers, and rulers of darkness at Satan's command are spirits of conspiracy that see a conspiracy behind every Bush. Chokes the Word absolutely every single time and the Word [helplessly] brings nothing to harvest. It's the most seductive thing that Satan has. It's more delicious to the carnal mind than money, and it's a blessing blocker 'cause it puts everything in your mouth that the Bible says you're absolutely never supposed to say. Upon a careful rereading of the context 75 to 100 times, the first 8 chapters of Isaiah call a spirit of conspiracy the spirit of rebellion: "You are not to say, 'It is a conspiracy!' In regard to all that this people call a conspiracy, And you are not to fear what they fear or be in dread of it."
At first, it seems like he's describing apocalyptic events, but as you read carefully, he's talking about all of this mess of who's going to get who. One of those places where the chapter number and verse number designations really do us all a disservice. I guess it's sorta like reading through Job where with that book, it's when you come to the end and find God calling all of Job's friends total blasphemers teetering on Him torching 'em if it weren't for His faithful intercessor, Job, who has been transformed by God into the fulfillment of the very need he identified, and in doing so fulfilled the law of Christ and experienced his own new heavens and new earth where righteousness dwelt for the rest of his life in his own Garden of Eden. As James said in the New Testament, when you're looking at all of these world events, consider the perseverance of Job and the end intended by the Lord through his refusal to call conspiracy all that his friends were calling conspiracy.
This is why most of my topic have be removed about obama....interesting..
so, that's why Jesus said "It will be like the the day of Noah" in other word, you are one of them that's not paying attention, I do and I am not doing it in faith crisis, I am doing to lift my head for hope. I would be surprised if anything anti-christ or the beast did come true soon, anyone talk about it in this place will be removed....included fear
God bless the unstoppable 19 year olds who made video after video. God bless the brave American scientists who lost their jobs and sustained ridicule and threats to tell the truth. You are God's people on earth.
We have found it. Unreacted thermite. The article may not be as groundbreaking as you think. Hundreds of thousands of people around the world have long known that the three buildings were demolished [controlled demolition]. This has been crystal clear. Our research is just the last nail in the coffin. This is not the 'smoking gun,' it is the 'loaded gun.'
--Neils Harrit, Department of Chemistry, University of Copenhagen, Denmark
Active thermite discovered in dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe. Nano thermite caused the buildings to collapse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_tf25lx_3o
John 8:32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Molly,
For those who know it for years it's just another "I told you so" moment. The others just keep looking the other way.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 13, 2009, 06:15:44 PM
Molly,
For those who know it for years it's just another "I told you so" moment. The others just keep looking the other way.
I've been waiting for years for the world's scientists to stand up and start publishing papers. God bless you, Neils Harrit.
As for the rest, maybe some day they will meet Jesus or, even, believe their own lying eyes.
The truth is always in plain sight.
Quote from: martincisneros
If in the next life only we have hope, then His conquest of death is a total sham!
/quote]
Where is this verse quoted above at? it sure isn't in the bible I've read, or is this verse extra biblical, or does it add or take away from the word? it doesn't appear to agree with scripture because bible scripture is very clear that the Death and Ressurection
of Jesus Christ is not a sham, even doubting Thomas saw the light of the truth and believed.
What does that have to do with mans religious struggles to build a New World Order? actualy it should be called the Old World Order or moving to rebuild Babylon that is all Babylon was . a unified world order ruled and controled by man, nothing new about it. Actualy IMO one would be better off seekng the Lord in the wilderness than to re-enter Babylon.
Peace,
Fire Walker
Quote from: fire walker on April 14, 2009, 10:43:39 AM
What does that have to do with mans religious struggles to build a New World Order? actualy it should be called the Old World Order or moving to rebuild Babylon that is all Babylon was . a unified world order ruled and controled by man, nothing new about it. Actualy IMO one would be better off seekng the Lord in the wilderness than to re-enter Babylon.
Peace,
Fire Walker
My point was, why does everybody think that the devil is in charge. The Body of Christ in the earth is in charge. They do what
we allow them to do. Nothing more. Nothing less. Or does Ephesians 2 about being seated with Him in heavenly places genuinely mean so little to some folks around here? That was what I was saying. Revelation 1:5-6: he has made us kings and priests; Romans 5:17: we reign in this life through the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness. There's nothing in all of the Bible that says that the reprobate can do all things through Christ which strengthens them, or that God's meeting their needs according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus. They don't have the infinite pockets that we do. 1John says our faith has overcome the world. Well!! Either it's overcome, or it's not! No middle ground. No gap theories allowed in the New Covenant of any kind of dispensational "yes, but not now." That's not what St. Paul said in 2Corinthians 1 about all of His promises being 'yes' and 'amen.' 2Peter 1 says that we're participants in the divine nature right now through His exceeding great and precious promises that have come to us through His grace and peace, as long as we're adding excellence to our faith so that we're making our calling and election sure in this life. My Bible says that the desire of the wicked perishes and that He/we are subduing their iniquities (Psalm 112:10; Micah 7:19; John 20:22-23).
Quote from: martincisneros on April 14, 2009, 04:11:27 PM
Quote from: fire walker on April 14, 2009, 10:43:39 AM
What does that have to do with mans religious struggles to build a New World Order? actualy it should be called the Old World Order or moving to rebuild Babylon that is all Babylon was . a unified world order ruled and controled by man, nothing new about it. Actualy IMO one would be better off seekng the Lord in the wilderness than to re-enter Babylon.
Peace,
Fire Walker
My point was, why does everybody think that the devil is in charge. The Body of Christ in the earth is in charge. They do what we allow them to do. Nothing more. Nothing less. Or does Ephesians 2 about being seated with Him in heavenly places genuinely mean so little to some folks around here? That was what I was saying. Revelation 1:5-6: he has made us kings and priests; Romans 5:17: we reign in this life through the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness. There's nothing in all of the Bible that says that the reprobate can do all things through Christ which strengthens them, or that God's meeting their needs according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus. They don't have the infinite pockets that we do. 1John says our faith has overcome the world. Well!! Either it's overcome, or it's not! No middle ground. No gap theories allowed in the New Covenant of any kind of dispensational "yes, but not now." That's not what St. Paul said in 2Corinthians 1 about all of His promises being 'yes' and 'amen.' 2Peter 1 says that we're participants in the divine nature right now through His exceeding great and precious promises that have come to us through His grace and peace, as long as we're adding excellence to our faith so that we're making our calling and election sure in this life. My Bible says that the desire of the wicked perishes and that He/we are subduing their iniquities (Psalm 112:10; Micah 7:19; John 20:22-23).
Point taken, but how do we balance this with satan being given rulership of the earth? Unless that rulership has already been removed/ revoked in actuality... I'm thinking of Hebrews here, which says that we know all has been made subject to Christ (and by extension, His body), but we do not yet see all subjected to Him...
Quote from: Doc on April 14, 2009, 07:52:06 PM
Point taken, but how do we balance this with satan being given rulership of the earth? Unless that rulership has already been removed/ revoked in actuality... I'm thinking of Hebrews here, which says that we know all has been made subject to Christ (and by extension, His body), but we do not yet see all subjected to Him...
On the issues that Hebrews was addressing: either the eternal passing away of Biblical and God sanctioned/endorsed Judaism in 70AD. And Hebrews 5:11-14 where Christians aren't yet thoroughly trained in the Written Word to have their 5 physical senses trained to know the difference between good and evil.
I've been watching quite a bit of Kenneth Gentry's stuff on YouTube recently 'cause although he's still an ET believing Calvinist, he's at the same time a partial preterist postmillenialist that believes that the Gospel will prevail over all things on this earth. And he brought up some interesting points on the binding of Satan with his conclusion that Satan is already bound because of what Jesus said about not being able to spoil the strong man's house without first binding him, and how the book of Revelation will say that Satan is bound to keep him from deceiving the nations any longer. With Revelation 20 you've got those that have been raised from the dead in the first resurrection reigning as kings and priests with Christ and yet Revelation 1:5-6 says that we're ALREADY there, and I'd have more than enough to dump on that from St. Paul's writings to corroborate. And he makes the interesting point about how in the Old Testament, only Israel was awake, to varying degrees, to the true God. But since the Apostles began their mission, Christianity has pretty much been [at least in representative form] in every nation on earth. I think I've basically covered his perspective on that, but in case I left out any verses that he brings up along those lines, here's the link for the YouTube 8 or 10 minute segment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7dBF6YzYlo&feature=PlayList&p=C31A25E0CE0A1DC5&index=19 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7dBF6YzYlo&feature=PlayList&p=C31A25E0CE0A1DC5&index=19)
When he first brought up his belief that Satan is already bound, I sorta rolled my eyes at first, but when I went ahead and heard him out, I thought he might have a point with how easy it is to bind Satan the rest of the way when you're praying in a deliverance situation or receiving some specific need met. Beyond just the authority of having the Name of Jesus and being free from sin in His Name, a whole lot of things are a whole lot easier than they were in the Old Testament with the example of when Daniel had to partial fast for 21 days to get the revelation he was after. I've noticed 3 to 7 days is the absolute most that I've ever had to set aside for some specific revelation from the Lord when I've been aware of a particular answer that I was after and had something specific that I could bring up and stand on James chapter 1 about. Lots of issues by comparison with the Old Testament are a lot easier, so I'm not sure that Kenneth Gentry isn't right about that.
I believe that the New Revised Standard Version would include it as a footnote on the Great Commission passage in Mark 16 that there's a manuscript that quotes Jesus as saying that the term of Satan's years have been fulfilled, but other terrible things draw near. I used to sorta blow that off with how the last 2000 years have played out, but the more that I'm meditating in the acknowledged canon as time goes by, uh....
Hebrews says that all things are under Him, but we don't yet see the reality of that, but then it continues to address issues related to our growth before it gets into the expected end of Judaism that was soon to happen. Hebrews 2, 3, 4, and 5 deal with the issues of the temptations that we face while retraining until our bodies are at least up to the level that Christ's was at in His precrucified form. And I'm not sure that the author isn't talking about walking in demensions of already being raised from the dead physically in this life, both from other teachings of St. Paul and what I've seen with various Christian mystics over the centuries where the stories of some of the miracles are a bit harder to swallow for many people than anything in the present Pentecostal/Charismatic movement.
What would make me lean in the direction of Kenneth Gentry being right about Satan already being bound is all of the statements from St. Paul about our being seated with Christ and that God wouldn't have divided the earth's rulership between us and Satan. And there is a statement in Colossians about principalities and powers having been spoiled and a public spectacle having been made of them in the sense of the way the Romans would do that with a vanquished foreign ruler, and Paul says this happened at the Cross.
Quote from: martincisneros on April 14, 2009, 08:28:51 PM
Quote from: Doc on April 14, 2009, 07:52:06 PM
Point taken, but how do we balance this with satan being given rulership of the earth? Unless that rulership has already been removed/ revoked in actuality... I'm thinking of Hebrews here, which says that we know all has been made subject to Christ (and by extension, His body), but we do not yet see all subjected to Him...
On the issues that Hebrews was addressing: either the eternal passing away of Biblical and God sanctioned/endorsed Judaism in 70AD. And Hebrews 5:11-14 where Christians aren't yet thoroughly trained in the Written Word to have their 5 physical senses trained to know the difference between good and evil.
I've been watching quite a bit of Kenneth Gentry's stuff on YouTube recently 'cause although he's still an ET believing Calvinist, he's at the same time a partial preterist postmillenialist that believes that the Gospel will prevail over all things on this earth. And he brought up some interesting points on the binding of Satan with his conclusion that Satan is already bound because of what Jesus said about not being able to spoil the strong man's house without first binding him, and how the book of Revelation will say that Satan is bound to keep him from deceiving the nations any longer. With Revelation 20 you've got those that have been raised from the dead in the first resurrection reigning as kings and priests with Christ and yet Revelation 1:5-6 says that we're ALREADY there, and I'd have more than enough to dump on that from St. Paul's writings to corroborate. And he makes the interesting point about how in the Old Testament, only Israel was awake, to varying degrees, to the true God. But since the Apostles began their mission, Christianity has pretty much been [at least in representative form] in every nation on earth. I think I've basically covered his perspective on that, but in case I left out any verses that he brings up along those lines, here's the link for the YouTube 8 or 10 minute segment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7dBF6YzYlo&feature=PlayList&p=C31A25E0CE0A1DC5&index=19 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7dBF6YzYlo&feature=PlayList&p=C31A25E0CE0A1DC5&index=19)
When he first brought up his belief that Satan is already bound, I sorta rolled my eyes at first, but when I went ahead and heard him out, I thought he might have a point with how easy it is to bind Satan the rest of the way when you're praying in a deliverance situation or receiving some specific need met. Beyond just the authority of having the Name of Jesus and being free from sin in His Name, a whole lot of things are a whole lot easier than they were in the Old Testament with the example of when Daniel had to partial fast for 21 days to get the revelation he was after. I've noticed 3 to 7 days is the absolute most that I've ever had to set aside for some specific revelation from the Lord when I've been aware of a particular answer that I was after and had something specific that I could bring up and stand on James chapter 1 about. Lots of issues by comparison with the Old Testament are a lot easier, so I'm not sure that Kenneth Gentry isn't right about that.
I believe that the New Revised Standard Version would include it as a footnote on the Great Commission passage in Mark 16 that there's a manuscript that quotes Jesus as saying that the term of Satan's years have been fulfilled, but other terrible things draw near. I used to sorta blow that off with how the last 2000 years have played out, but the more that I'm meditating in the acknowledged canon as time goes by, uh....
Hebrews says that all things are under Him, but we don't yet see the reality of that, but then it continues to address issues related to our growth before it gets into the expected end of Judaism that was soon to happen. Hebrews 2, 3, 4, and 5 deal with the issues of the temptations that we face while retraining until our bodies are at least up to the level that Christ's was at in His precrucified form. And I'm not sure that the author isn't talking about walking in demensions of already being raised from the dead physically in this life, both from other teachings of St. Paul and what I've seen with various Christian mystics over the centuries where the stories of some of the miracles are a bit harder to swallow for many people than anything in the present Pentecostal/Charismatic movement.
What would make me lean in the direction of Kenneth Gentry being right about Satan already being bound is all of the statements from St. Paul about our being seated with Christ and that God wouldn't have divided the earth's rulership between us and Satan. And there is a statement in Colossians about principalities and powers having been spoiled and a public spectacle having been made of them in the sense of the way the Romans would do that with a vanquished foreign ruler, and Paul says this happened at the Cross.
A lot of that makes sense to me, and I've seen at least in passing others addressing the issue of Satan's already being bound; I've wondered about it myself from time to time.
One thing I wanted to bring up though was that Hebrews 5 passage you mentioned. I don't think that what that is saying is that we're to actually learn to discern
between good and evil, but that we're to discern
apart from good and evil. I did a word study on (discern) diakrisis and its root, diakrino (diakrino means to reflexively withdraw from) That passage really seems to be saying that we are to learn to judge good and evil as both being from the same tree and not to eat of it, but rather eat from the tree of life instead. If all we're doing is judging between good and evil, then we're still eating from that same tree that God told us in the garden leads to death, in trying to choose the good over the evil. We're trying to become God all over again. We need to let God be God and let Him decide what is good and what is evil.
Edited to add; if Satan is already bound, then that means we're already in the millennium, yes?
Yes! The purpose of the discerning between good and evil so that we can choose the good and reject the evil consistently with our physical members is so that we'll walk after the Tree of Life.
A gentle (or a Word filled) tongue is a tree of life, but deceit in it crushes the spirit. Proverbs 15:4
Hebrews 3:1-2a:
1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession (i.e. confession), Christ Jesus;
2Who was faithful to him that appointed him...
The millenium is the reign of the Saints, and that's what I've surprisingly had to argue for on this thread in the face of a lot of "que cera, cera."
Quote from: martincisneros on April 14, 2009, 09:05:31 PM
Yes! The purpose of the discerning between good and evil so that we can choose the good and reject the evil consistently with our physical members is so that we'll walk after the Tree of Life.
A gentle (or a Word filled) tongue is a tree of life, but deceit in it crushes the spirit. Proverbs 15:4
Hebrews 3:1-2a:
1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession (i.e. confession), Christ Jesus;
2Who was faithful to him that appointed him...
Er, wait a sec. I thought what I was saying was that we are being instructed
not to discern
between good and evil, by trying to choose the good over the evil, but rather put
our notions of good and evil aside. But then you agreed with me by re-stating the opposite? I'm confused.
Diakrino: to separate, make a distinction, discriminate, to prefer
to learn by discrimination, to try, decide
to determine, give judgment, decide a dispute
to withdraw from one, desert
to separate one's self in a hostile spirit, to oppose, strive with dispute, contend
to be at variance with one's self, hesitate, doubt (online source link on definition (http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1252))
i.e. on where I'm going with this: to withdraw between good and evil, or to withdraw good from evil, or between good from evil.
Diakrisis: a distinguishing, discerning, judging (online source link on definition (http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1253))
I was saying that the discerning between good and evil is pointless without the High Priestly ministry of Jesus and drawing upon the tree of life by drawing upon His High Priestly ministry with the confession of our faith of God's promises.
Quote from: martincisneros on April 14, 2009, 09:45:06 PM
Diakrino: to separate, make a distinction, discriminate, to prefer
to learn by discrimination, to try, decide
to determine, give judgment, decide a dispute
to withdraw from one, desert
to separate one's self in a hostile spirit, to oppose, strive with dispute, contend
to be at variance with one's self, hesitate, doubt (online source link on definition (http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1252))
i.e. on where I'm going with this: to withdraw between good and evil, or to withdraw good from evil, or between good from evil.
Diakrisis: a distinguishing, discerning, judging (online source link on definition (http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1253))
Ok, that explains the difference in our understanding. I was using the e-sword Strong's concordance which gives the definition of diakrino as:
G1252
διακρίνω
diakrinō
dee-ak-ree'-no
From G1223 and G2919; to
separate thoroughly, that is, (literally and reflexively) to withdraw from, or (by implication) oppose; figuratively to discriminate (by implication decide), or (reflexively) hesitate: - contend, make (to) differ (-ence), discern, doubt, judge, be partial, stagger, waver.
Because he doesn't add the "one" to "withdraw from", it makes it easy to see that as to reflexively withdraw from
both. So I read that as to seperate ourselves thoroughly or reflexively withdraw from
both good and evil (both being from the same tree).
I'm not quite certain how to reconcile your understanding of this with the picture of the two trees in the garden. God did tell us to avoid the tree that contains
both good
and evil, did He not?
Are we [you, me, anybody here at the Tentmaker Forum] required to march around Jericho for 7 days? To me, makes as much sense although I realize a lot of folks have built a whole mysticism around the Garden of Eden situation that ignores or explains away the rest of the Bible at it's convenience if it messes with their image of their metaphor that doesn't work very well with usages of Eden elsewhere in Scripture. There's another food test that people fail everyday, but people want to talk about apples or weed in the Garden of Eden or make it into their prejudice against mainstream Christianity when they're cursing what God has blessed while asserting it's all relative and it's all already in the Lake which Biblically is nonsense. The word "between" is still in Hebrews 5:14, even in the Concordant Literal. Rotherhams uses the word "both." And Young's uses the word "both" of good and of evil. But if we stop there, then we don't have a wholesome gentle tongue that's in full submission to Jesus's High Priestly ministry.
Quote from: martincisneros on April 14, 2009, 10:09:07 PM
Are we [you, me, anybody here at the Tentmaker Forum] required to march around Jericho for 7 days? To me, makes as much sense although I realize a lot of folks have built a whole mysticism around the Garden of Eden situation that ignores or explains away the rest of the Bible at it's convenience if it messes with their image of their metaphor that doesn't work very well with usages of Eden elsewhere in Scripture. There's another food test that people fail everyday, but people want to talk about apples or weed in the Garden of Eden or make it into their prejudice against mainstream Christianity when they're cursing what God has blessed while asserting it's all relative and it's all already in the Lake which Biblically is nonsense. The word "between" is still in Hebrews 5:14, even in the Concordant Literal. Rotherhams uses the word "both." And Young's uses the word "both" of good and of evil. But if we stop there, then we don't have a wholesome gentle tongue that's in full submission to Jesus's High Priestly ministry.
Hmm. Do those other translations use the word "both" in place of "between", or in addition to? That could be part of my confusion as well. If the translation uses both, then I would lean toward my original interpretation, if it is between and/or between and both together, then I might lean more toward your understanding.
Another interesting thing about this passage: On one of my e-sword programs, I have Vincent's word study utility (VWS), and he has this to say about that "good and evil" in this passage:
"Good and evil
Not moral good and evil, but wholesome and corrupt doctrine. The implication is that the readers' condition is such as to prevent them from making this distinction."
I'm not entirely sure what you were getting at with your first question about Jericho, or your last comment about "stopping there".
Quote from: Doc on April 14, 2009, 10:29:06 PMAnother interesting thing about this passage: On one of my e-sword programs, I have Vincent's word study utility (VWS), and he has this to say about that "good and evil" in this passage:
"Good and evil
Not moral good and evil, but wholesome and corrupt doctrine. The implication is that the readers' condition is such as to prevent them from making this distinction."
Yes, read within the context of the chapters leading up to it, the corrupt doctrine would be anything that tries to keep us from taking our promised land of this whole earth by asserting that the devil's got too much of an upper hand and we can't prevail because we are grasshoppers where these banking institutions are, while the renewed mind would ask who these uncircumcised Philistines are to defy the armies of the living God? There are two immutable things by which God cannot lie and we have God's promise to Abraham that this world is ours in Christ. The book of Hebrews is saying "we don't yet see these things, so GO AND GET IT!! Be transfigured by the renewing of your mind so that you'll prove out the perfect will of God for this earth. Start thinking soberly according to the measure of faith that He's authored and finished in you. This is the joy that was set before Him. Something that topples the Kingdoms of this world and makes them the Kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ. Without one more drop of bloodshed..."
One of the two immutable things by which God cannot lie is the Bread and Cup in 1Corinthians 11 by which we proclaim His death until He comes. There's something else in the New Testament by which we proclaim He lives until He comes, but I can't get into that one at Tentmaker's Forum any further than I already have a few other times if I'm going to stay compatible with Gary's ministry here at Tentmaker and respectful of him while I'm here. But these two immutable things by which God cannot lie are the key features of activating the Blessing of our being possessors of heaven and earth, and to say otherwise is the corrupt doctrine that I've personally rejected. And this is the transformation of our bodies in order to inherit all of our participation in the divine nature in this life with taking every nation captive to the Gospel.
So, there's a double meaning in this passage in Hebrews, because corrupt doctrine would try to rob us of the healing that Jesus was raised up for. These physical bodies can be everything that His is, if we offer them up a living sacrifice, present ourselves to Him as alive from the dead and our members as instruments of righteousness to God, and aren't conformed to this world but become transfigured by the renewing of our minds with the Written Word of God so that we can prove out His perfect will for this earth that we will have to give an account for to Him Who is ready to judge the living and the dead at His return according to Daniel 12, John 5, and 2Timothy 4.
Quote from: martincisneros on April 14, 2009, 10:49:21 PM
Quote from: Doc on April 14, 2009, 10:29:06 PMAnother interesting thing about this passage: On one of my e-sword programs, I have Vincent's word study utility (VWS), and he has this to say about that "good and evil" in this passage:
"Good and evil
Not moral good and evil, but wholesome and corrupt doctrine. The implication is that the readers' condition is such as to prevent them from making this distinction."
Yes, read within the context of the chapters leading up to it, the corrupt doctrine would be anything that tries to keep us from taking our promised land of this whole earth by asserting that the devil's got too much of an upper hand and we can't prevail because we are grasshoppers where these banking institutions are, while the renewed mind would ask who these uncircumcised Philistines are to defy the armies of the living God? There are two immutable things by which God cannot lie and we have God's promise to Abraham that this world is ours in Christ. The book of Hebrews is saying "we don't yet see these things, so GO AND GET IT!! Be transfigured by the renewing of your mind so that you'll prove out the perfect will of God for this earth. Start thinking soberly according to the measure of faith that He's authored and finished in you. This is the joy that was set before Him. Something that topples the Kingdoms of this world and makes them the Kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ. Without one more drop of bloodshed..."
One of the two immutable things by which God cannot lie is the Bread and Cup in 1Corinthians 11 by which we proclaim His death until He comes. There's something else in the New Testament by which we proclaim He lives until He comes, but I can't get into that one at Tentmaker's Forum any further than I already have a few other times if I'm going to stay compatible with Gary's ministry here at Tentmaker and respectful of him while I'm here. But these two immutable things by which God cannot lie are the key features of activating the Blessing of our being possessors of heaven and earth, and to say otherwise is the corrupt doctrine that I've personally rejected. And this is the transformation of our bodies in order to inherit all of our participation in the divine nature in this life with taking every nation captive to the Gospel.
So, there's a double meaning in this passage in Hebrews, because corrupt doctrine would try to rob us of the healing that Jesus was raised up for. These physical bodies can be everything that His is, if we offer them up a living sacrifice, present ourselves to Him as alive from the dead and our members as instruments of righteousness to God, and aren't conformed to this world but become transfigured by the renewing of our minds with the Written Word of God so that we can prove out His perfect will for this earth that we will have to give an account for to Him Who is ready to judge the living and the dead at His return according to Daniel 12, John 5, and 2Timothy 4.
I appreciate that insight.
Also, with respect to the middle paragraph here; I'd appreciate a PM on that, because I'd like to hear what you have to say there without violating Gary's wishes. Some of the things you said at the end of that paragraph sound very similar to some of Gary Sigler's teaching, which I have been getting into lately (I believe he's a friend of the Slagle's).
you people need to read Job, it explain clearly that God make everything the way it operated, in other word, you smoke because God made you smoke, you quit smoking because God make you quit smoking, in other word, God is the story writer of all thing that happen, we don't make it happen, there no free wills, anti-christ happen because God allow it, the eagle fall because God allow it, so in other word again, God did everything, didn't the bible said that no one seeking God? That's because God said so.
So why thing happen the way thing happen? satan didn't do it, it was God, he control everything.
So what the point trying to prove good or evil? God did those too...
the truth shall set you free when God said so...
2 Samuel 14:17
"And now your servant says, 'May the word of my lord the king bring me rest, for my lord the king is like an angel of God in discerning good and evil. May the LORD your God be with you.' "
"discern"
H8085
שׁמע
shâma‛
shaw-mah'
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.): - X attentively, call (gather) together, X carefully, X certainly, consent, consider, be content, declare, X diligently, discern, give ear, (cause to, let, make to) hear (-ken, tell), X indeed, listen, make (a) noise, (be) obedient, obey, perceive, (make a) proclaim (-ation), publish, regard, report, shew (forth), (make a) sound, X surely, tell, understand, whosoever [heareth], witness.
Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
[their] "senses"
G145
αἰσθητήριον
aisthētērion
ahee-sthay-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of G143; properly an organ of perception, that is, (figuratively) judgment: - senses.
"exercised"
G1128
γυμνάζω
gumnazō
goom-nad'-zo
From G1131; to practise naked (in the games), that is, train (figuratively): - exercise.
[to] "discern" [both good and evil]
G1253
διάκρισις
diakrisis
dee-ak'-ree-sis
From G1252; judicial estimation: - discern (-ing), disputation.
G1252
διακρίνω
diakrinō
dee-ak-ree'-no
From G1223 and G2919; to separate thoroughly, that is, (literally and reflexively) to withdraw from, or (by implication) oppose; figuratively to discriminate (by implication decide), or (reflexively) hesitate: - contend, make (to) differ (-ence), discern, doubt, judge, be partial, stagger, waver.
Quote from: IceDash on April 15, 2009, 12:22:34 AM
you people need to read Job, it explain clearly that God make everything the way it operated, in other word, you smoke because God made you smoke, you quit smoking because God make you quit smoking, in other word, God is the story writer of all thing that happen, we don't make it happen, there no free wills, anti-christ happen because God allow it, the eagle fall because God allow it, so in other word again, God did everything, didn't the bible said that no one seeking God? That's because God said so.
So why thing happen the way thing happen? satan didn't do it, it was God, he control everything.
So what the point trying to prove good or evil? God did those too...
the truth shall set you free when God said so...
not
Quote from: martincisneros on April 15, 2009, 03:47:43 AM
Quote from: IceDash on April 15, 2009, 12:22:34 AM
you people need to read Job, it explain clearly that God make everything the way it operated, in other word, you smoke because God made you smoke, you quit smoking because God make you quit smoking, in other word, God is the story writer of all thing that happen, we don't make it happen, there no free wills, anti-christ happen because God allow it, the eagle fall because God allow it, so in other word again, God did everything, didn't the bible said that no one seeking God? That's because God said so.
So why thing happen the way thing happen? satan didn't do it, it was God, he control everything.
So what the point trying to prove good or evil? God did those too...
the truth shall set you free when God said so...
not
Are you kidding me?! didn't you read Job?!
Quote from: IceDash on April 15, 2009, 08:16:57 PM
Are you kidding me?! didn't you read Job?!
Got the whole book memorized. Doesn't say anything like you're implying, trust me. Dig deeper! Whole book is about a man who though having opened the door to the devil with his fear and fearful behaviour, yet God wouldn't let go of His covenant with him, inspite of the devil having come in to try to steal the Word that was sown in his heart. Job went back to his covenant that he had with God, realized where he'd missed it and closed those doors to the devil. And in came the reality of that covenant relationship that he'd had all of that time with God and God restored twice as much as the man ever lost -- who was the riches man in the east when the story starts! Job became the very intercessor that he perceived the need for.
Had there been an intercessor, as we have with Christ Jesus today, then the devil never could have gotten in the door as quickly and with as big of a devastation, ACCORDING TO JOB'S OWN WORDS, over such a slight stepping out of the light that he had. Judgment was coming down on Job's friends for what they had said, however, because Job interceded for them and they got their giving straightened out, then God brought redemption to the situation with his friends. God even reconciled Job with his wife. James, in the New Testament, says to look at the book of Job for the end intended by the Lord and for an example of a New Covenant believer's perseverance in their Covenant in the face of adversity and how God will turn absolutely everything around in their lives if they'll persevere inspite of the naysayers, such as yourself, in those things that they've been fully persuaded of by Christ Jesus and His Apostles about their seating with Him in heavenly places.
Because although Job was a man of like passions as us, yet God heard the prayers of Job, forgave his friends, and healed his land and restored twice as much as he'd ever lost. The story of Job is a story of a man who wouldn't let go of his covenant with God. It's not a story of God having turned anyone over to the devil. Excuse me! Get in some better translations on those first couple of chapters, plus realize the differerences between the administration of grace that he lived in and the superior administration of grace that we live in, and accept the book as the very thing that the early Apostles accepted it as: a testimony of what God will do in the life of a man of God that absolutely refuses to let go in the face of absolutely everything having gone to Hell, including his own body.
God healed that man. God forgave his wife and gave her children in her old age. And God perfected the image of Christ Jesus in that man. And God gave us another example of faith being the victory that overcomes the world, an example of His Kindness, and an example how absolutely lavish He's more than ready, willing, able, passionate, and determined to make of our lives as He makes our lives into a testimony of the exceeding riches of His grace if we'll absolutely refuse to let go of doing things His way with the principles of the Covenant of grace that we have.
just because it looks good...doesn't mean its from God
choose life
blessings :icon_king:
Job refused to turn lose of the innocence that he had by blood, and he refused to curse. God closed the book of Job by giving him His wisdom. Of course, James was going to cite him in the New Testament in his epistle, after all he'd just said in the 3rd chapter about not giving your tongue over to becoming the kindling of Gehenna in your life, although it's not tamable in the same way as you'd tame a horse, but it takes the wisdom that is from above to do it. Job is the picture of a New Testament believer that refuses to turn lose of the innocence that's been bought for them by much holier Blood than Job could depend upon back then.
Personaly I see the new world order as nothing new under the sun, it is nothing more than the flesh trying to set in the place of God, mans religious and political desire to gather and rebuild what God scattered, the New World Order is not new, it is as old as Babylon and can never obtain again the unity of flesh and the one common language that God scattered accross the earth into uncommon tongues, that is why we have been subjected to futility not willingly by the same who sublected us in hope, trust in him alone and no other.
Peace,
Fire Walker
Quote from: fire walker on April 18, 2009, 01:30:33 AM
Personaly I see the new world order as nothing new under the sun, it is nothing more than the flesh trying to set in the place of God, mans religious and political desire to gather and rebuild what God scattered, the New World Order is not new, it is as old as Babylon and can never obtain again the unity of flesh and the one common language that God scattered accross the earth into uncommon tongues, that is why we have been subjected to futility not willingly by the same who sublected us in hope, trust in him alone and no other.
Peace,
Fire Walker
Ding Ding Ding...
and ladies and gentlemen... we have a winner!!
Fire Walker, you have answered the original question correctly.
Everyone else, we have some lovely departing gifts for you... :laughing7:
Quote from: fire walker on April 18, 2009, 01:30:33 AM
Personaly I see the new world order as nothing new under the sun, it is nothing more than the flesh trying to set in the place of God, mans religious and political desire to gather and rebuild what God scattered, the New World Order is not new, it is as old as Babylon and can never obtain again the unity of flesh and the one common language that God scattered accross the earth into uncommon tongues, that is why we have been subjected to futility not willingly by the same who sublected us in hope, trust in him alone and no other.
Peace,
Fire Walker
Indeed, and thank you, Firewalker for steering us back to the original question. And what a truthful answer.
For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him. 2 Samuel 14:14
Quote from: fire walker on April 18, 2009, 01:30:33 AM
Personaly I see the new world order as nothing new under the sun, it is nothing more than the flesh trying to set in the place of God, mans religious and political desire to gather and rebuild what God scattered, the New World Order is not new, it is as old as Babylon and can never obtain again the unity of flesh and the one common language that God scattered accross the earth into uncommon tongues, that is why we have been subjected to futility not willingly by the same who sublected us in hope, trust in him alone and no other.
Peace,
Fire Walker
Wait a second. I said this in the third post on the first page of this thread.
Oh good grief. There's nothing new about these characters. Their roots go back thousands of years into Babylon.
Let's call it the Old World Order.
They are liars and their father is the father of lies.So have we just gone back to the beginning to know the place for the first time?
The fact that they cannot be successful does not mean that they can't make many people miserable trying, though.
I also said this--
Someday--soon I hope--satan will no longer deceive the whole world.
Already been chewed bubble-gum, in a "new" wrapper.
But has lost it's flavor!
peacemaker
Quote from: Molly on April 18, 2009, 08:50:33 AM
Quote from: fire walker on April 18, 2009, 01:30:33 AM
Personaly I see the new world order as nothing new under the sun, it is nothing more than the flesh trying to set in the place of God, mans religious and political desire to gather and rebuild what God scattered, the New World Order is not new, it is as old as Babylon and can never obtain again the unity of flesh and the one common language that God scattered accross the earth into uncommon tongues, that is why we have been subjected to futility not willingly by the same who sublected us in hope, trust in him alone and no other.
Peace,
Fire Walker
Wait a second. I said this in the third post on the first page of this thread.
Oh good grief. There's nothing new about these characters. Their roots go back thousands of years into Babylon.
Let's call it the Old World Order.
They are liars and their father is the father of lies.
So have we just gone back to the beginning to know the place for the first time?
The fact that they cannot be successful does not mean that they can't make many people miserable trying, though.
I also said this--
Someday--soon I hope--satan will no longer deceive the whole world.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Indeed yes, Molly you did post the same message on the second reply to Annes thread here, maybe in differant wording yet
of the same spirit pointing out that the NWO in no more than mystery Babylon being revealed for what it is.
Peace
Fire Walker
New World Order defines 'Terrorists' :mblush: (You gotta laugh...they are soooo predictable.)
Department of Homeland Security Report: Pro-Lifers Most Dangerous Domestic Terrorists
The Department of Homeland Security has issued an emergency assessment entitled "Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment." When the document was first made public yesterday, I instructed our staff to verify that this was in fact a legitimate document. The reason I expressed skepticism was that the nature of the statements contained in the report were so outrageous to the pro-life community and to free speech that I could not imagine that Homeland Security would actually issue such a document. Nevertheless, we've had an opportunity to verify the document as to its authenticity. Additionally, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security has also stated that it did in fact issue the document to all law enforcement personnel throughout the United States.
The report is troubling as to its scope and dangerous as to its precedent. The key finding noted by the Department of Homeland Security is that, although there is "no specific information that domestic rightwing terrorists are currently planning acts of violence . . . rightwing extremists may be gaining new recruits by playing on their fears about several emergent issues." In defining rightwing extremism, the report states "rightwing extremism in the United States can be broadly divided into those groups, movements, and adherents that are primarily hate-oriented . . . and those that are mainly antigovernment, rejecting federal authority in favor of state or local authority, or rejecting government authority entirely. It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration." To label pro-lifers and those who are opposed to certain immigration policies as rightwing extremists and domestic terrorists is incorrect as a matter of law and wrong as a matter of policy.
Nowhere in this report is there any mention of Al Qaida cell groups operating domestically here in the United States. DHS has taken its focus away from rooting out those people that are bent on causing harm to the United States. Instead, they are using government resources to monitor pro-life citizens who are exercising their free speech rights by holding up a sign in front of an abortion clinic. On FOX News today I stated that the government needs to be spending its time rounding up terrorists who are bent on the destruction of our government rather than focusing on grandmothers holding up a pro-life sign outside an abortion clinic.
The scope of this report is also dangerous. In discussing rightwing terrorists, the report states that there is a phenomenon of violent radicalization in the United States. Pointing to those who are opposed to abortion and same-sex marriage, the report envisions what it calls the most dangerous domestic terrorism threat in the United States as these pro-life groups, those opposed to immigration, and returning veterans from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Several times the Department of Homeland Security mentions the fact that we have a historic President in the United States. Unfortunately, despite this historic event, the Department of Homeland Security seems to be prepared to trample on the First Amendment rights of concerned citizens that want to disagree with the current regime's positions. I say this because the report says that many rightwing extremists are antagonistic towards the new Presidential administration and have also exhibited "paranoia of foreign regimes" taking an active role in U.S. policy. These foreign regimes are already taking an active role in U.S. policy and we've been concerned about this issue for the last several months.
At bottom, this is a dangerous precedent. It is troubling in its scope. It is wrong as a matter of public policy and it targets citizens of the United States who have fundamental free speech rights that can be exercised. We are going to react within the context of a legal response to the Department of Homeland Security's actions. I linked here an interview I just completed on FOX News on the situation and we will have more on this on Monday.
http://www.aclj.org/TrialNotebook/Read.aspx?id=767
Gosh, I wonder if Gary Amirault ever drops in here to read anything? How, I wonder would he react if he knew his board was overrun by right-wing fundamentalist political types? I don't think he would approve. I do wish a moderator would stop the high-jacking of this thread with Molly's extremist political views which clearly do not reflect the political views of the whole UR Christian community.
And btw, I think my private message function on Tentmaker is mal-functioning, and did not notify me of PMs sent to me on April 6th. Also, I just tried to return a Private Message to Sparrow and feel that it may not have gone anywhere.
I will refrain from posting anything further until the moderators decide to moderate. The spirit here is wrong and needs correcting.
Anne
2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
A Meditation on Our Monetary System: State of Permanent Siege
By Richard Cook
Global Research, April 22, 2009
showcase.bestcyrano.org/
THE LEVEL OF PUBLIC IGNORANCE on the topic of the U.S. and world
monetary system is astonishing. This is part of the plan, of course,
because the monetary elite control not only the financial system but
also the news media, the publishing industry, and the educational
system. The blueprint for control was put together over a century ago
by Cecil Rhodes and his friends, including British financier Nathan
Rothschild, as documented by Professor Carroll Quigley.
During the 20th Century the power shifted to the U.S., with the
Rockefellers playing the dominant role as they continue to do today.
It is no accident that J.P. Morgan Chase, the Rockefeller family bank,
dominates the U.S. derivatives market; nor that Exxon-Mobil, the
Rockefellers oil company, is the most profitable corporation in
history.
The basic plan was to place all of mankind in a state of permanent
mental and emotional siege so that in the end we would trade all our
liberties to the controllers in return for protection; even freedom of
thought would be traded for physical safety. That plan is well
advanced. The sheeple have been prepared for the final shearing.
Meanwhile, every attempt at real reform has been strangled in the
cradle. Past voices for monetary sanity like those of Congressmen
Louis McFadden and Jerry Voorhis were silenced. Starting in the 1970s,
functionaries like Kissinger, Brzezinski, and Volcker carried out
David Rockefellers plan to outsource manufacturing to China and
eliminate the U.S. as the worlds greatest industrial democracy,
replacing it with a financier oligarchy.
Barack Obama obviously works mainly for the financiers, as did Bill
Clinton before him. The job of the Democrats is to keep the sheeple
quiet by now and then implementing some reforms; the Republicans
were a more blatant gang of looters.
During the 2008 election campaign, Ron Paul called for the end of the
Federal Reserve, the bastion of financier control, but no one
effectively organized the millions of people who responded to his call
or had a viable plan to put in place. Barack Obama obviously works
mainly for the financiers, as did Bill Clinton before him. The job of
the Democrats is to keep the sheeple quiet by now and then
implementing some reforms; the Republicans were a more blatant gang
of looters.
With the financial crash of 2008-2009, the noose is tightening
everywhere in the world. The International Monetary Fund is
announcing, The current global recession is likely to be unusually
long and severe, and the recovery sluggish. (BBC News, IMF Sees
Long and Severe Slowdown, April 16, 2009.) In reality, as the IMF
knows, it would be possible to put every nation in the world on the
road to recovery by allowing them to prime the economic pump through
sovereign control of their own monetary systems, with freedom to
utilize their own natural resources.
The IMF announcement is in fact the start of a worldwide program of
genocide similar to what was done to Russia in the 1990s, with
crushing poverty, slashing of incomes, reduction of benefits for the
poor and elderly, rising levels of disease and malnutrition, and
reduction of life expectancy. We in the West will view the carnage
with alarm from our own stripped-down economies but remain docile out
of fear the same will be done to us.
Awareness of the hideous evil of the financiers plans to destroy the
soul of humanity is growing. This is being accomplished through the
internet and the work of a number of writers who understand what is at
stake. I doubt this channel of expression will be available
indefinitely. Already alternative websites are being isolated and
marginalized. But the fight must be waged.
The one organization that has a program which is comprehensive and
free from outside influence is the American Monetary Institute, which
has drafted the American Monetary Act. If the Act is introduced in
Congress, it will be imperative for it to be recognized and supported
as the one chance to save our nation from the dark night that is
threatening. But even progressive writers shrink from taking on the
Monetary Power, with many of them putting forth the absurdity that all
we need to do is reform the banking system.
The American Monetary Act has been in process since 2003. It may be
found on the AMI website at: http://www.monetary.org/amacolorpamphlet.pdf
. AMI will conduct a presentation on the Act on Capitol Hill, April
23, 2009, in Room 304 of the Cannon House Office Building.
Presentations will take place at 10:00 AM and at 2:00 PM.
At the same time, groups of relatively conscious people can come
together on their own to create refuges of sanity until the danger
passesover a period of years, decades, or even generations. And, to
look at it from a spiritual perspective, we can hope that the Higher
Powers who observe humanitys destiny refuse to allow our particular
experiment in consciousness to be obliterated.
Destruction of human consciousness is the real goal of the financiers
and their minions. It is lies above all that do this. The financiers
power is the biggest lie of all.
Richard C. Cook is a retired federal analyst who writes today on
economic, political, and spiritual matters. His books and videos are
available through his website at www.richardccook.com. He recently
released his six-part video series: Credit as a Public Utility: the
Solution to the Economic Crisis.
*The phrase permanent siege is from Thomas Pynchons novel Against
the Day. Set at the end of the 19th Century, the novel describes the
dynamics and strategy of the future totalitarian regimes of the
approaching 20th centuryi.e., a state of permanent siege.
Disclaimer: The views expressed in this article are the sole
responsibility of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of
the Centre for Research on Globalization. The contents of this article
are of sole responsibility of the author(s). The Centre for Research
on Globalization will not be responsible or liable for any inaccurate
or incorrect statements contained in this article.
To become a Member of Global Research
The CRG grants permission to cross-post original Global Research
articles on community internet sites as long as the text & title are
not modified. The source and the author's copyright must be displayed.
For publication of Global Research articles in print or other forms
including commercial internet sites, contact: crgedi...@yahoo.com
Copyright Richard Cook, showcase.bestcyrano.org/, 2009
http://www.globalresearch.ca/PrintArticle.php?articleId=13309
He said there would be wars and reports of wars,and to not be
disturbed.Wars in physical realm and wars in spiritual realm.
A lot of these churches act like terrorists...bombing clinics...
etc..both 'supposedly'christians as well as muslims.
Jerusalem sure had their 'rebels' against Roman rule in their
time also.
IT IS WRITTEN;....that the beast will turn on the harlot...
and utterly devastate her. I beleive this is what we are seeing
fulfilled at this time.....she's not taking it very well,she's enjoyed
her influence and prestige.
Thus, GET OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE