Millenial Views

[Jerm]

Just curious about other people's views.  What End Times view do you hold to?  Dispensational Premillenialism, Historical Premillenialism, Amillenialism, Postmillenialism?  (If I forgot an -ism, I apologize)

[jabcat]

Panism...it'll all pan out in the end.  Just kidding Jerm, good question...the times they are a'changing.

[Doc]

I suppose you'd call me a 'partial' preterist with postmillenial leanings.

I used to be premil (pre-trib rapture) dispensationalist. (Mostly because that's what I was raised with.) :thumbdown:

[Doc]

Panism...it'll all pan out in the end.  Just kidding Jerm, good question...the times they are a'changing.

Heh. Reminds me of my Grandfather who used to say "pan-tribulationist; however it pans out".

[sparrow]

My views:

NO clue.

I do think that evil has to play out to the end and exhaust itself.
evil is weak. Love is powerful.
Love is the MOST powerful.
Love conquers all.

LOVE conquers ALL.

However evil ends up exhausting itself...
I just kinda don't care.
It's something that has to happen.
So it can never become an issue ever again for all eternity.

hmmm. Maybe that didn't answer your question.

I guess I'm a Panist. :)

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Jab, I'm with you!  :laughing7: Personally, I could never bring myself to study any of those "views", so truthfully I don't even know what they mean exactly.  :mblush:

God showed me within 6 months of being saved that there was no rapture (as it's being taught anyway), that tribulation comes from a word that is a threshing instrument (threshing the chaff off the good seed in us), and that hell was separation from God (and so many in hell walking around in shoe leather), so that kinda eliminated any study of things associated with specific literal earthly "timing" for me. My  :2c: Blessings....

[martincisneros]

I'm an Absolute Postmillenialist, which differs from regular Postmillenialism in that I genuinely believe that absolutely every individual on the planet will be a Christian before Jesus returns.  I don't believe in a final apostacy.  I believe that's a misreading of Revelation 20.  Perhaps there will be several generations on earth where everyone is a Christian.  I challenged the traditional view of a final apostacy in Revelation 20 on this thread:

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3697.0

and as you can see, as of when I'm posting the link, there were no challenges to what I'd posted on that matter.  That's the only passage that many try to prove something like that from, other than something from St. Paul's writings that's obviously either talking about the apostacy of Israel or of the Church when it went into the St. Augustinian system. 

Many Postmillenialists would likely lean in the direction of what I've said about it, [usually particularly if they have a UR bottomline,] if they ever had time to really look into it.  But it's an issue that many Postmillenialists don't really have the motivation to really look into just simply 'cause they're full of relief already that Christianity will become the rule rather than the exception in real recorded and mortal history.  There's not a lot to base a final apostacy on, unless you want to take some of the Old Testament references to Israel's apostacy that way, but those obviously have other historical contexts with their Old Testament times of apostacy and with where they've been at since the first century.

Scholars from the past and present that have gone there with me about absolutely everyone on the planet coming to Christ before the resurrection, though not necessarily UR folks by any stretch, would include B. B. Warfield, H.A.W. Meyer, Loraine Boettner, and R. J. Rushdoony.  I haven't looked into these claims, but wikipedia has an article that mentions that John Calvin's exposition of the Lord's Prayer goes here with me on this, and that Charles Spurgeon delivered a sermon one time that also emphatically went here with the Absolute Postmillenialism, but that normally his sermons stayed with premillenialism.  It doesn't mention the particular sermon, which is irritating 'cause I'd love to read it.

[sparrow]

:cloud9: Jab, I'm with you!  :laughing7: Personally, I could never bring myself to study any of those "views", so truthfully I don't even know what they mean exactly.  :mblush:

God showed me within 6 months of being saved that there was no rapture (as it's being taught anyway), that tribulation comes from a word that is a threshing instrument (threshing the chaff off the good seed in us), and that hell was separation from God (and so many in hell walking around in shoe leather), so that kinda eliminated any study of things associated with specific literal earthly "timing" for me. My  :2c: Blessings....

That's almost precisely how it was with me!
Very similar path as far as this is concerned.

:icon_flower:

[martincisneros]

I've wanted to start a brand new thread on this, but haven't gotten around to it yet, as to why these subjects have an element of deep importance.  I still intend to do that thread "someday," but in the meantime want to try to develop a thought or two that would eventually be a part of that thread:

Number 1: it's a part of the testimony that God has given of His Son, so if we totally blow it off and refuse to spend time with the Holy Spirit on this for Him to open this up to us....

Number 2: few things build our hopes and guide our actions like our view of the future that we can have.  People that don't believe that the world can ever be anything except kindling for the Lord to torch the cosmos with, generally won't be as actively involved in making a difference in other people's lives, or they'll more easily slip into depression over doing so 'cause they have no vision of anything mattering in this life.

Number 3: much of our morality is determined by our view of the future.  If it's all going to hell anyway, then we view it to be okay to trash this planet rather than to have genuine motivation for recycling, environmental preservation, etc.  I've never known a pessimillenialist (i.e. premillenialist or amillenialist) to be all of that excited about the latest means of protecting animals, the environment, our usage of extraterrestrial resources, etc.  That's not to say that a pessimillenialist wouldn't have compassion towards the suffering of creatures on our planet, but it'll honestly lack at least real hope if not strength and motivation as well.  Space exploration and anything else related to preparing for the future of human life becomes vanity of vanities if people genuinely believe that God is against the cosmos and is only in favor of separating them from it to Himself with no long term blessing/benefit to the Creation coming out of that.  Much heart, emotional, and mental sickness comes from deferring one's hopes to another world.  Proverbs said it would happen, so no surprises there.  So, much of premillenialism is gnostic by denying the physical world as being inherently good, but plagued with evil and suffering that we're supposed to be a part of vanquishing from the earth.  And gnosticism has historically been forbidden by Scripture and by the best of Christian theologians for 20 centuries on these principles because it does lead to much emotional illness, immorality towards Creation, and other problems.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: My  :2c:. I have a view of the future. I just don't have a pre, post, ect., labeled "millinielist view". The "millennium" ie. 1000 year (s) the "scholars"  with these labels intact write about, is not a time period, but a PERSON, which is why all their rhapsodizing about what is going to happen when, in regards to that person, is pure conjecture on their part, because they still think they're talking about a time period.

That, and the fact that He said no man would know the hour, for the express purpose of keeping the carnal mind from corrupting the Spirit breathed Word, thus keeping it from manifesting/resurrecting up out of us, because He will not give His glory unto another (image).

If He's in us, then WHERE is He is coming FROM, and how does that relate to ANYTHING outside of ourselves as if IT is the catalyst, such as (their favorite), what is going on in a patch of land in the middle east? They have the cart before the horse as usual, not knowing the lesson of Nebuchadnezzar, that HEAVEN (Spirit) rules in the affairs of men.

That means that what is going on outside of us (as Christ takes over His temple COMPLETELY), is a direct result of what going's on INSIDE of us, NOT the other way around, as the wheat (Him inside) and the tares (darkness outside) are raised up together. This is why He said things outside would grow darker as the day of His coming, neared.

The 7th day, which correlates to the Son, was no part darkness, not because there was none there, but because it had been swallowed up of light/Spirit, just like the tablets of the law that ministered condemnation/death to the hearer, were covered over by ark of the covenant. Christ IS that day, as the pattern in the tabernacle shows (10 X 10 X 10 = 1000) and of HIS COMING shall NO MAN know the time or the hour.

I know it's hard not to look at the natural right now but we must press in as never before
looking to the author and finisher of our faith to finish what He has begun in us, that He might come quickly and take over His temple. Blessings...

[sparrow]

Number 2: few things build our hopes and guide our actions like our view of the future that we can have.  People that don't believe that the world can ever be anything except kindling for the Lord to torch the cosmos with, generally won't be as actively involved in making a difference in other people's lives, or they'll more easily slip into depression over doing so 'cause they have no vision of anything mattering in this life.

I see where you are coming from, but the opposite it also true.

Number 3: much of our morality is determined by our view of the future.  If it's all going to hell anyway, then we view it to be okay to trash this planet rather than to have genuine motivation for recycling, environmental preservation, etc.  I've never known a pessimillenialist (i.e. premillenialist or amillenialist) to be all of that excited about the latest means of protecting animals, the environment, our usage of extraterrestrial resources, etc.  That's not to say that a pessimillenialist wouldn't have compassion towards the suffering of creatures on our planet, but it'll honestly lack at least real hope if not strength and motivation as well.  Space exploration and anything else related to preparing for the future of human life becomes vanity of vanities if people genuinely believe that God is against the cosmos and is only in favor of separating them from it to Himself with no long term blessing/benefit to the Creation coming out of that.  Much heart, emotional, and mental sickness comes from deferring one's hopes to another world.   Proverbs said it would happen, so no surprises there. 

Again, I understand where you are coming from but believe that the opposite is true as well.

To the bolded:

I've DEFINITELY had the opposite reaction!  My goodness! I think my fabulous hope being deferred to another world has only made me more hungry for it in THIS world and living in that other world... NOW! as much as I can. Living in that other world NOW (as much as one can) means changing what is around you.  :icon_flower:

[Molly]

The "millennium" ie. 1000 year (s) the "scholars"  with these labels intact write about, is not a time period, but a PERSON, which is why all their rhapsodizing about what is going to happen when, in regards to that person, is pure conjecture on their part, because they still think they're talking about a time period.

Interesting, that never occurred to me before.  I'm not sure how to even process it.  Would this mean that the 144,000 is also a person?

]That means that what is going on outside of us (as Christ takes over His temple COMPLETELY), is a direct result of what going's on INSIDE of us, NOT the other way around, as the wheat (Him inside) and the tares (darkness outside) are raised up together. This is why He said things outside would grow darker as the day of His coming, neared.

I don't understand what you are saying here.  If we have more light inside, shouldn't there also be more light outside?

Much heart, emotional, and mental sickness comes from deferring one's hopes to another world.   Proverbs said it would happen, so no surprises there. 

Martin, can you give me the scripture from Proverbs that says this?  Thanks.  I love what you are preaching these days.

[Cardinal]

I think my fabulous hope being deferred to another world has only made me more hungry for it in THIS world and living in that other world... NOW! as much as I can. Living in that other world NOW (as much as one can) means changing what is around you.  :icon_flower:

:cloud9:  :thumbsup:

[Cardinal]

The "millennium" ie. 1000 year (s) the "scholars"  with these labels intact write about, is not a time period, but a PERSON, which is why all their rhapsodizing about what is going to happen when, in regards to that person, is pure conjecture on their part, because they still think they're talking about a time period.

Interesting, that never occurred to me before.  I'm not sure how to even process it.  Would this mean that the 144,000 is also a person?

:cloud9: I touched on this in another post recently, but for the life of me I don't know what thread it's in. It's rather lengthy. I'll check on the thread for you and add it here.

]That means that what is going on outside of us (as Christ takes over His temple COMPLETELY), is a direct result of what going's on INSIDE of us, NOT the other way around, as the wheat (Him inside) and the tares (darkness outside) are raised up together. This is why He said things outside would grow darker as the day of His coming, neared.

I don't understand what you are saying here.  If we have more light inside, shouldn't there also be more light outside?

:cloud9: From what He has shown me, everything will continue on with the darkness getting darker outside UNTIL He comes in the fullness in a body of people, the 144,000, which is not a set number either, but a "measurement" of Him in a people who are called by His name. Blessings...

[jabcat]

:cloud9: Jab, I'm with you!  :laughing7: Personally, I could never bring myself to study any of those "views", so truthfully I don't even know what they mean exactly.  :mblush:

God showed me within 6 months of being saved that there was no rapture (as it's being taught anyway), that tribulation comes from a word that is a threshing instrument (threshing the chaff off the good seed in us), and that hell was separation from God (and so many in hell walking around in shoe leather), so that kinda eliminated any study of things associated with specific literal earthly "timing" for me. My  :2c: Blessings....

That's almost precisely how it was with me!
Very similar path as far as this is concerned.

:icon_flower:

:thumbsup:  Good spirit on this thread...good posts from many.  I'm being blessed by you guys sharing.  God's blessing, James.

[Nathan]

Just a real quick note here . . .I see the 144,000 as a person as well . . .it is the corporate bride for me . . . it is not all people, but those that are manifesting the glory of God through themselves . .which can only come about through RELATIONSHIP with him.

Gotta go.

[martincisneros]

Martin, can you give me the scripture from Proverbs that says this?  Thanks.  I love what you are preaching these days.

I don't have a Bible handy, but I believe it's Proverbs 13:12 that hope defered makes the spirit horribly sick, but when a dynamic passion comes it's a tree of life.

[Molly]

12Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life.

--Prov 13