Today's Israel "became" a nation in 1948.
Question is, was this as prophesied by the OT prophets, or not?
A Better Covenant:
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
The New Covenant People:
Act 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
Act 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
But what about the return from Exile?
All of those prophesies were fulfilled when the Jews returned from Babylon to Jerusalem and build the second temple.
See this article: http://www.revearljackson.com/uploads/3/2/2/5/322557/bible_reasons_why_the_modern_nation_of_israel_is_not_gods_chosen_people.pdf
(The reverend does not profess UR, but His scripture on the return from exile is pretty extensive)
What does Jesus have to say about the return of Israel into the "promised land"? :search:
Are these a God fearing people? Have they repented? Are they at peace with their neighbors?
But what about Revelations 11? John was to measure the temple (which he never does), and their are the two witnesses. This would indicate that activity is happening in Jerusalem (spiritually called Sodom and Egypt) but there is no indication that this is the restoration of Jesus' Kingdom - that is to happen later.
The old covenant has been done away with. The Jews are no longer a chosen race. God's chosen people are Abraham's children of faith. The new Jerusalem is not build by hands, but by God.
IMO, the Jews around the World are being deceived and the stage is being set for their false Messiah.
Walk around Zion, go round about her, consider the towers thereof.
Mark ye well her bulwarks and consider her palaces
That you may tell it to the generation to come(Psalm 48)
Looking at more secular things (but all things tie in, one way or another, with God's Word), the people of this so-called return from exile were never really in exile at all! To be in exile, as in the exile of Israel & Judah, you must be a Shemite, a Hebrew, and an Israelite. No other groups qualify. In the case of the eastern European Jews (~90% of Jewry), the Ashkenazic Jews have been proven by history and genetics to be descendants of Japheth, being a branch of the Turkic peoples. Specifically, they are descendants of the nation of the Kazars, who once had an empire in the Ukraine area. It is all a scam and a deception. Further, if we use the Revelation as a guide, having found Jews who are not (really) Jews, that is to say, members of the tribe of Judah, then we have found the Synagogue of Satan.
Good point Laz
:iagree: Laz
I have read a few articles regarding that as well. Apparently the synagogue of Satan is still at work. :eek:
An informative short article about recent dna testing of jews and where they came from.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CFIQFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.texemarrs.com%2F042013%2Fjews_not_descendants_of_abraham.htm&ei=v5DKU8TVDc36oASlzQI&usg=AFQjCNFV-aSmTkwdbEvZK63h3lCNuigMlg
Thanks for the link to the DNA article.
That is from Tex Mars' website. In looking at the content of his website and everything that is for sale, it appears that he is profiting from end times mania! :eek:
In Romans 9, Paul applies the Hosea 2 prophecy to Gentiles following his Romans 2 teaching that Israelites are those who have the Spirit. The Hosea 2 prophecy is about Israel returning to the land. This suggests to me that the prophecies about Israel's return are signifying the creation of the "Israel of God" the church. That kind of teaching got Paul in a lot of trouble with his brothers according to the flesh. It's hard medicine after all.
More info about that here http://mercifultruth.com/links-promisedland.html
Quote from: saintwalee on July 19, 2014, 05:47:28 PM
:iagree: Laz
I have read a few articles regarding that as well. Apparently the synagogue of Satan is still at work. :eek:
Yes, and it appears that we are all Palestinians now.
Quote from: Seth on July 19, 2014, 09:31:51 PM
In Romans 9, Paul applies the Hosea 2 prophecy to Gentiles following his Romans 2 teaching that Israelites are those who have the Spirit. The Hosea 2 prophecy is about Israel returning to the land. This suggests to me that the prophecies about Israel's return are signifying the creation of the "Israel of God" the church. That kind of teaching got Paul in a lot of trouble with his brothers according to the flesh. It's hard medicine after all.
More info about that here http://mercifultruth.com/links-promisedland.html
:iagree:
This came to mind today as well:
Dan_9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Mat_18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. Jesus could have said, "always forgive"; but he said "...seventy times seven". Did the Jews recognize this from Daniel's prophecy? Jesus again is stating multiple things within the context of his words; in this telling the Jews that they were given 490 years to turn from their wicked ways and turn back to God and live righteously.
That is interesting. Could be.
For me " Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven" is an infinite number, but that's just me. :HeartThrob:
I've always understood it that way myself too. But there might be a connection, something that Christ is suggesting with his usage of the numbers.
Quote from: Seth on July 20, 2014, 12:19:12 AM
I've always understood it that way myself too. But there might be a connection, something that Christ is suggesting with his usage of the numbers.
Hi Seth , I have been reading all the posts for a couple of days now
and just love what everyone brings out !! :thumbsup:
I also wonder about the 70X7 that Jesus used
and thought of 70 years being all the days of our earthly life perhaps ? when 7 in the old Hebrew , being a cardinal number its root name is Sheba , meaning to swear an oath to swear, adjure verb formal
urge or request (someone) solemnly or earnestly to do something.
"I adjure you to tell me the truth"
(Qal) sworn (participle)
(Niphal)
to swear, take an oath
to swear (of Jehovah by Himself)
to curse
(Hiphil)
to cause to take an oath
to adjure
seven (cardinal number)
as ordinal number
in combination
Psalms 90
The years of our life are seventy, or even by reason of strength eighty; yet their span is but toil and trouble; they are soon gone, and we fly away.
Just doing some searching and found some of this interesting
Maybe Jesus was telling us to be able to commit what He asks to show mercy and act upon it always forgiving
so many 7's in Revelation as well
7 being a prime or complete number
it really makes me wonder :Chinscratch:
Nice insight Rosered:
I can see that as well, and with what micah7:9 posted, it could be that until 7 lifetimes, one should forgive! (I'm not inferring reincarnation here).
I don't think I've ever had to forgive anyone even a handful of times in my life, so even 7x70 leaves a lot of forgiving!
Quote from: saintwalee on July 20, 2014, 02:55:06 AM
Nice insight Rosered:
I can see that as well, and with what micah7:9 posted, it could be that until 7 lifetimes, one should forgive! (I'm not inferring reincarnation here).
I don't think I've ever had to forgive anyone even a handful of times in my life, so even 7x70 leaves a lot of forgiving!
Hi Saintwalee ,
For me, I don't believe in reincarnation either
But more of 70 being a lifetime and 7 being perpetual , example '' like times & seasons'' history over and over again but in a circle/repeat of motion ..
I forgive but its usually after prayers and consideration :Peace2:
Quote from: rosered on July 20, 2014, 01:19:23 AM
I also wonder about the 70X7 that Jesus used
and thought of 70 years being all the days of our earthly life perhaps ?
70x7 = 70 weeks (of Daniel)
They didn't give their land rest on the during 70 Sabbath years. God forgave them but finally they had to pay back with 490 years in exile (70x7)
unhuh...just like man's 70' years involved in 'sin works'..and not resting in Jesus Christ.[freedom from sin]
a great Jubilee..and returning unto their inheritance on the Great Sabbath/Jubilee/500th...........
we have the pentecost [50] token at present..the promise of that Great Jubilee and return unto our inheritance
of which our inheritance is God the Father and Jesus Christ..to always dwell with them.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2014, 01:34:38 PM
Quote from: rosered on July 20, 2014, 01:19:23 AM
I also wonder about the 70X7 that Jesus used
and thought of 70 years being all the days of our earthly life perhaps ?
70x7 = 70 weeks (of Daniel)
They didn't give their land rest on the during 70 Sabbath years. God forgave them but finally they had to pay back with 490 years in exile (70x7)
490 years in exile?
Quote from: saintwalee on July 20, 2014, 06:03:27 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2014, 01:34:38 PM
Quote from: rosered on July 20, 2014, 01:19:23 AM
I also wonder about the 70X7 that Jesus used
and thought of 70 years being all the days of our earthly life perhaps ?
70x7 = 70 weeks (of Daniel)
They didn't give their land rest on the during 70 Sabbath years. God forgave them but finally they had to pay back with 490 years in exile (70x7)
490 years in exile?
I love this , thanks to all for making me think /change of mind/heart in a path /direction of clarity
first in Adam 930 years and all in Adam death 70 years = 1000 years in Adam all die , the days of our flesh is vanity led into captivity ,,,
death being the last enemy /mortal decay, loss , we are set free in Christ the LIFE and Spirit of the HOLY GOD ! :HeartThrob:
Quote from: saintwalee on July 20, 2014, 06:03:27 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2014, 01:34:38 PM
Quote from: rosered on July 20, 2014, 01:19:23 AM
I also wonder about the 70X7 that Jesus used
and thought of 70 years being all the days of our earthly life perhaps ?
70x7 = 70 weeks (of Daniel)
They didn't give their land rest on the during 70 Sabbath years. God forgave them but finally they had to pay back with 490 years in exile (70x7)
490 years in exile?
That's obviously very wrong :doh: :footmouth:
A more correct explanation is that Israel didn't keep Sabbath years during a period of 490 years. That's 70 Sabbath cycles. A Sabbath is every 7th year.
Because they didn't keep 70 Sabbaths they were sent into exile for 70 years.
http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/a-different-490-years/
http://www.markbeast.com/70jubilees/norest.htm
http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/the-secrets-of-time/msg121678/#msg121678
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2014, 07:46:29 PM
Quote from: saintwalee on July 20, 2014, 06:03:27 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2014, 01:34:38 PM
Quote from: rosered on July 20, 2014, 01:19:23 AM
I also wonder about the 70X7 that Jesus used
and thought of 70 years being all the days of our earthly life perhaps ?
70x7 = 70 weeks (of Daniel)
They didn't give their land rest on the during 70 Sabbath years. God forgave them but finally they had to pay back with 490 years in exile (70x7)
490 years in exile?
That's obviously very wrong :doh: :footmouth:
A more correct explanation is that Israel didn't keep Sabbath years during a period of 490 years. That's 70 Sabbath cycles. A Sabbath is every 7th year.
Because they didn't keep 70 Sabbaths they were sent into exile for 70 years.
http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/a-different-490-years/
http://www.markbeast.com/70jubilees/norest.htm
http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/the-secrets-of-time/msg121678/#msg121678
:thumbsup: entering His rest A Sabbath-Rest for the People of God
1 Therefore, s
ince the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.
2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.
3
Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
"So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "
And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world.
4For somewhere he has spoken
about the seventh day in these words: "On the seventh day God rested from all his works."
5And again in the passage above he says,
"They shall never enter my rest."6Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience,
7God again set a certain day, calling it "Today." This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts."
8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have
spoken later about another day.
9There remains, then,
a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from their works,e just as God did from his.
11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
12For t
he word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow;
it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13
Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Jesus the Great High Priest
14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven,f Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.
15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.
16
Let us then approach God's throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
Hi Rosered:
I just wanted to pull a verse out of your post and examine that:
5And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest."
This could be used against the UR thought. There are other scriptures as well that appear that the unrighteous will not receive everlasting life.
So how can this be reconciled?
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
So I think "They" means everyone, our sinful fleshly nature.
In summary by Paul:
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Amen to that!
Jesus told Jerusalem "you will not see me again until you say `blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD"
it is of course God's design that Israel fell away so the gentile nations would be brought in
"and what shall they're being brought in be? but life from the dead, is so be their falling away has made us rich" (very poorly paraphrased, sorry!)
"when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies.."
"and they gathered to armegeddom.."
"Those who bless Israel will be blessed and those who curse Israel will be cursed.."
"I will gather the nations.. in the valley of decision.."
"all Israel will be saved.."
Also at teh end of rev 12, which begins with the mantle of truth being upon Israel's shoulders.. then it is Christianity and its tow major (for the most part) migrations of the faith.. then at the end of the chapter.. the focus is back upon Israel, who have the commandments of God and (by then? see 1st verse above) also the testimony of Jesus"... all according to God's plan..
Israel as microcosm.. the world fell away, but it was God's design that it occurred.. gotta run!
Everything regarding Israel is fulfilled in Christ. The reason that the members of the Church are Jews is because Israel is God's firstborn Son. To be in Israel is to be in Christ.
Quote from: Seth on July 21, 2014, 09:17:33 PM
Everything regarding Israel is fulfilled in Christ. The reason that the members of the Church are Jews is because Israel is God's firstborn Son. To be in Israel is to be in Christ.
Not quite following that Seth, but it did make me think :scratchhead:
National Israel was "born" out of God's oath to Abraham, so I suppose Israel could be looked at as God's only begotten son (as a nation), as no other nation in the world was "chosen" by God.
But that "birth" was definitely by God's promise to Abraham, as Israel clearly was rebellious from the beginning until the end (70 AD), not deserving in any form or fashion to being righteous before God.
Was Israel "born" to take the wrath of God, instead of the nations of the world at large? Is national Israel the scapegoat?
Like Christ, will national Israel rise up the third day? I think very much so. As Paul states in Romans 11, national Israel will be restored:
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? National Israel is a representation of our personal lives; we are rebellious but God will restore us.
Is today's nation of Israel that promised in scripture? I seriously don't think so. I think that the true restoration happens upon Christ's return. It will be His doing, not man's.
The new Testament definitely speaks of the judgement of the nations; the separating of the sheep and goat nations. Yes, we are Jews inwardly by faith and have the promise of the New Covenant, but as peoples, tongues and nations, they are to be judged and either destroyed or brought into the kingdom age as well. My :2c:
Check it out:
Matthew 2:13-15
An angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. "Get up," he said, "take (Jesus) and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him." So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, They stayed there until King Herod died. So the words the Lord had spoken through the prophet came true. He had said, "I chose to bring my son out of Egypt."
Here is the prophecy:
Hosea 11:1-2
The LORD continues,"When Israel was a young nation, I loved them. I chose to bring my son out of Egypt. But the more I called out to Israel, the further they went away from me. They brought sacrifices to the statues of the gods that were named after Baal. And they burned incense to them.
Exodus 4:22-23
Then (Moses) say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.'"
To be in Christ is to be in God's firstborn Son, to be in Israel. For a Jew is not one outwardly according to circumcision the flesh, but according to the circumcision of the Spirit.
I have more info about this here: http://mercifultruth.com/links-promisedland.html
:gimmefive: I thought you would have some scripture for that!
It could be difficult to see Israel as God's first born son, as to the history of Jacob, being the second born (but loved by God) and being so deceitful his whole life.
Oh the mysteries that are there-in!
I think that has to do with the shadow vs realization difference. Even in that particular prophecy, you can see its a lamentation by God of how Israel went further away from God. Israel was a nation God was not pleased with very often, but his son he was well pleased with. So Jacob was deceptive but his actions were a shadow of how God would choose his elect, and that it would not be based on nautural heritage, as with Easau. For the last shall be first and the first shall be last.
Quote from: saintwalee on July 21, 2014, 01:29:51 AM
Hi Rosered:
I just wanted to pull a verse out of your post and examine that:
5And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest."
This could be used against the UR thought. There are other scriptures as well that appear that the unrighteous will not receive everlasting life.
So how can this be reconciled?
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
So I think "They" means everyone, our sinful fleshly nature.
In summary by Paul:
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Amen to that!
Hi saintwaleee , good point and scriptures !!! and believe its those that never enter his rest are those still struggling with the flesh and no flesh pleases God and
NEVER enter His rest .
But those dwelling on the things above and being led of the Holy Spirit is what receives the things of God though faith believing Gods Word /Son
HI Rose, good post :thumbsup:
I just want to add that if I remember correctly, the text "they shall never enter my rest" is mistranslated. It should be "they shall not enter my rest." The words "not" and "never" are vastly different. When Jerusalem was overrun for 70 years, the Israelites did not repent...until the 70 years were up.
Quote from: Seth on July 22, 2014, 06:22:03 PM
HI Rose, good post :thumbsup:
I just want to add that if I remember correctly, the text "they shall never enter my rest" is mistranslated. It should be "they shall not enter my rest." The words "not" and "never" are vastly different. When Jerusalem was overrun for 70 years, the Israelites did not repent...until the 70 years were up.
Thanks Seth ! much appreciated , sure enjoy your posts!! You are right , its ''not enter '' I was being a little dramatic I reckin :banana: lol
They shall never enter my rest as long as they is stubborn and wont listen to my Voice :banana:
Quote from: eaglesway on July 23, 2014, 06:53:46 PM
They shall never enter my rest as long as they is stubborn and wont listen to my Voice :banana:
Yes indeed , and those hardened for our benefit in Gods plan :thumbsup:
romans 11 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, :icon_flower: