The pre-tribulational, pre-millennial, dispensational [time frames and time lapse] overview and methodology of rendering truth from the scriptures is the correct approach for the student of Bible prophecy, but I do not agree with a number of added precepts of the traditional pre-tribulational view of the scriptures currently held by many.
Here they are:
Removal of restraint equated with the removal of the Church at the "rapture"
References to the Church in the Lord's discourse regarding Israel and the time of the end
A 7 year peace agreement between Israel and the nation's enemies
That the confirmation of the covenant of 70 weeks of years is by the "other prince that shall come"
A re-built tribulation temple of the Lord's
Israel's resumption of sacrificial animal worship during the 70th week
A revival of the Roman Empire with its core as the EU
The symbol of the first seal is the "anti-christ"
A European "antichrist"
The pope is the "antichrist"
The "woman" of Revelation 17 and 18 is the RCC
MBG's great city is the Vatican
MBG's great city is the beast's base of operations
Revelation 18:4 is a request to come out of the RCC
Identification of the first beast as a system of government .... or a human
The timing of the initial destruction of MBG's great city placed at the end of the 70th week
The placement of the two witnesses during the first 1,260 days
The 24 elders alone are the "Church"
The great multitude are believers saved during the tribulation period
Insertion of historical events after 33 A.D. and before the 70th week into the prophetic visions
Rome and subsequent historical rulers of the Middle East are in the scope of the visions
Gog is a Russian
Satan is not Gog, and not the one that the Lord's addresses in Ezekiel's vision
The "revealing" of the little horn/beast placed at the middle of the 70th week
Ezekiel's war is extra-70th week, and or not the battle of Armageddon
The creatures described in Revelation 9 are human armies with advanced technology
The removal of the seals are actual time line events of the tribulation period
The primary focus of the visions of the Bible prophets is outside of the Middle East
That specific signs will be observed on the earth before the Lord brings His coming judgment
False predictions made related to the second coming
False assumptions made of current events that are not in the scope of the visions
Speculations made for the purpose of attracting attention
All of these listed have been suggested and imbedded in the traditional 'pre-tribulation' view and require further investigation and refinement in my opinion in order to build an air-tight rendering of correct end time exegesis as the Lord has intended to give.
:cloud9: Hi Stephen, welcome to the board, good to have you here. :happy3:
I would just like to share with you, that you have come on a board where most of the brethren here have been shown the spiritual MESSAGES contained within the letter (Rock smitten to reveal the life of the Spirit). The Word is Spirit, written to our Spirit, and as such cannot be interpreted thru anything but the mind of Christ, which IS Spirit.
As such, the first line of the book of Revelation tells succinctly what it is about, ie. the REVELATION (means to uncover or reveal) of JESUS CHRIST, which John testified took place IN THE TEMPLE.
1Co 6:19 - What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
God the Father was IN Christ, reconciling all men unto Himself, and as Christ is now in His temple (us) made without hands, the revelation of Him in us, is why Christ IN US, is our hope of glory (Col.) and why Romans 8 says that the glory is getting ready to be REVEALED, IN US.
Additionally, the word derived tribulation comes from a Greek word tribulum, that is a tool used to thresh WHEAT (Matt. 13 the good seed of the Kingdom/Christ). So the "tribulation" is the action used by the reapers/angels (word means MESSAGES or messengers with a MESSAGE) to remove the CHAFF off the good Seed, that He might be seen of all men. Blessings....
Cardinal,
"spiritual MESSAGES contained within the letter (Rock smitten to reveal the life of the Spirit). The Word is Spirit, written to our Spirit, and as such cannot be interpreted thru anything but the mind of Christ, which IS Spirit."
>Expand on this statement for me please
>And yes the book of Revelation is the Lord's own revelation
:sigh:
Partly what Card is sharing is the fact that truth comes through relationship to the individual . . .thus, the truth becomes an experience within them. The traditional means of understanding has been through much reading, rendering and indepth studying, teaching, anylizing . . .all with the very equipment Scripture advises us to not rely on . . .which is our natural reasoning and logic.
For me it's the Peter experience . . ."Who do YOU say that I am . . ." in reading that passage, Jesus explicitly states that truth can only come through revelation from the Father . . .flesh and blood has not taught this, only the Father can reveal it to us.
Everything is spiritual. Everything is symbolizing something deeper. Comments have been made here in the past about the idea that you can't spiritualize something that's already spiritual . . . but there was never any clarification as to what the writer percieved to be spiritual in the first place. But for me, to take a word spiritually, is to take it inwardly.
That issue with Peter . . .Jesus FIRST asked "Who do men say that I am . . ." It's a question asking about all the different opinions that others have about Christ . . .but when he turned to Peter and said "who do YOU say that I am" Jesus just took it dimensionally internal with Peter. And the next thing out of Peter's mouth was not the result of much studying, reasoning and debates . .but it was a momumental revelation to a simple man.
Scripture says whatever the reader wants it to say . .even if the reader intends to approach the Word with an open mind, good intentions may be a good place to start, but often times, good intentions can still create more problems than solutions in our lives.
I can say that I read with an open mind . . .but once the discussion takes a turn away from what I think it says . .the mind isn't as open as I convinced myself for it to be.
Bottom line, we're to walk in the spirit . . applying the word to current events isn't spiritual as much as it is literal. When you're applying things to a natural experience, it's still literal. The intent for our hearts is spiritual . .inward. We are the temple 2 Thessalonians speaks of where there is one who stands and defies God, the obomination of desolation . . .Paul words it another way in Romans, he says there the mind is at emnity with God . . .that is where the antichrist is to me . . .it's in our carnal-thinking minds.
Yes, we are to have our minds renewed . .but that again is a spiritual experience, not a schoolastic teaching accompanied with certification to give license to enforce personal convictions on congregations or neighbors.
Just thinking along the lines of the conversation already in progress is all.
But the believer is to study themselves approved
To seek truth from the Lord's Word with His guidance
This works ..... believe it
One should be careful that this approach is not abandon for an open undisciplined, unbiblical, self generated methodology for understanding truth
The Lord's truth cannot be found in any other source except His Word and one needs to seek and focus upon this precept
Otherwise anything is fair game for the return
2Timothy
2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Quote from: Stephen on May 27, 2009, 03:02:22 AM
But the believer is to study themselves approved
To seek truth from the Lord's Word with His guidance
This works ..... believe it
One should be careful that this approach is not abandon for an open undisciplined, unbiblical, self generated methodology for understanding truth
The Lord's truth cannot be found in any other source except His Word and one needs to seek and focus upon this precept
Otherwise anything is fair game for the return
2Timothy
2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
One quick comment on all your Scripts you post . . .it really isn't enlightening when you just post Scripture because I'll still read it in the light from my position with the Father . . .it benefits little really.
As far as the studying to show . . .you do realize that all it's saying is WHEN you study YOU WILL FIND yourself APPROVED. No one here is saying throw out the word . . .all I'm saying is . .there's much more that lies beneath the surface than just a literal translation.
:cloud9: Hello again Stephen.......just a quick note here to share.......
The ones to whom the scriptures were entrusted to, were also given understanding or sort of an "owner's manual" on how to approach what was given to them via the mouth of the Father. The approach is as follows: see if you can spot yours in there.
"The system of hebraic understanding used by all hebrew prophets and scholars was and remains a system that goes by the acronym of PARDES which stands for:
PASHAT/ Literal primary meaning
REMEZ/Hints in the text of something deeper
DRASH/ The added understanding that can only be gleaned by parables, riddles, stories
SOD/ Secrets and mysteries which are mysterious underlying secrets revealed in text
For Jesus said, "The Words that I speak unto you they are Spirit and they are life."
The Spirit world can only be revealed in the Spirit, and the Spirit of YHWH comes in 4 basic measures or levels.
This is why the scripture states that we shall not live (or have HIS life) by bread (literal letter that killeth) alone, but every Word (Spirit breathed revelation) that comes out of the mouth of the Father. The Father is a Spirit, and what comes out of His mouth IS Spirit, and it was this that Jesus said He spoke (only what He HEARD the Father speak).
ALL of the "ways" of study that evolve naturally out of RELATIONSHIP with He who IS Spirit, which was lost to the "Pharisees" of successive generations, is being restored in this generation upon whom the ends of the age have come. Blessings....
Nathan,
"One quick comment on all your Scripts you post . . .it really isn't enlightening when you just post Scripture because I'll still read it in the light from my position with the Father . . .it benefits little really."
>You are really subverting the Lord's Word by your statements
>I post scripture for good reason .... this is a must for the believer in Jesus Christ
>You say don't do it .... a strange thing for a professing christian to exclaim
>And I also post much commentary [I have only just begun] .... and this you will discover if you read my postings on this forum ... whether you agree or not is beside the point ... I just completed a session on a forum with over 7,000 posts
>So what you are telling is presumptuous and not really a fair and equitable assessment
"Hello again Stephen.......just a quick note here to share.......
The ones to whom the scriptures were entrusted to, were also given understanding or sort of an "owner's manual" on how to approach what was given to them via the mouth of the Father. The approach is as follows: see if you can spot yours in there.
"The system of hebraic understanding used by all hebrew prophets and scholars was and remains a system that goes by the acronym of PARDES which stands for:
PASHAT/ Literal primary meaning
REMEZ/Hints in the text of something deeper
DRASH/ The added understanding that can only be gleaned by parables, riddles, stories
SOD/ Secrets and mysteries which are mysterious underlying secrets revealed in text
For Jesus said, "The Words that I speak unto you they are Spirit and they are life."
The Spirit world can only be revealed in the Spirit, and the Spirit of YHWH comes in 4 basic measures or levels.
This is why the scripture states that we shall not live (or have HIS life) by bread (literal letter that killeth) alone, but every Word (Spirit breathed revelation) that comes out of the mouth of the Father. The Father is a Spirit, and what comes out of His mouth IS Spirit, and it was this that Jesus said He spoke (only what He HEARD the Father speak).
ALL of the "ways" of study that evolve naturally out of RELATIONSHIP with He who IS Spirit, which was lost to the "Pharisees" of successive generations, is being restored in this generation upon whom the ends of the age have come. Blessings...."
>I have to tell you that all of this is bordering on gnosticism .... "secrete meanings", "hidden manna", the "letter killeth", etc. .... these are diversionary methods to lead away from truth presented in the scriptures
>For example; "the letter of the law killeth" has nothing to do with the literal method of interpretation of the scriptures .... the letter of the law does kill if one is depending upon it for salvation
>These ideas are employed for the purpose of subverting the gospel and the truth of the scriptures, so I will warn you about the practice
Quote from: Stephen on May 27, 2009, 03:52:20 AM
Nathan,
"One quick comment on all your Scripts you post . . .it really isn't enlightening when you just post Scripture because I'll still read it in the light from my position with the Father . . .it benefits little really."
>You are really subverting the Lord's Word by your statements
>I post scripture for good reason .... this is a must for the believer in Jesus Christ
>You say don't do it .... a strange thing for a professing christian to exclaim
>And I also post much commentary [I have only just begun] .... and this you will discover if you read my postings on this forum ... whether you agree or not is beside the point ... I just completed a session on a forum with over 7,000 posts
>So what you are telling is presumptuous and not really a fair and equitable assessment
Hi Stephen :icon_flower:
Please share and expound on the scriptures you quote , as proof texting is so easily done by all of us,,,, Have ya ever thought there may be hidden depths beneath many of the scriptures ..?Kinda hidden to the natural eye? ..
sorta like.. ya read a passage of scripture for yrs and THEN POW...something just JUMPS right out the BOOK...,like a revelation...one of those LIGHT bulb moments. :icon_flower:
over the seasons ive found this to be very so ,then we seem to take a different veiw to what we may have thought was TRUE for Eons...,
Intellect is useful, but there are some here who will equally say its really worthless come the depths which lay within ...it actually HINDERS .... and there are some very intellectual folk on this board .....just giving you some grounding to what Tent and some of its members are about..pre warned so Im told, is prearmed....
again Blessings To you Stephen :icon_flower:
Taffy :icon_flower:
Hi again Stephen :icon_flower:
Seems Card posted over me,,she lays it out very well , well for mine.
This mystic stuff has come up before , ill find ya the thread if ya wish , because I sense it coming back once more
Blessings :icon_flower:
Taffy
Taffy,
Intellect has nothing to do with the ability to learn the Lord's truth in the scriptures
The sincere desire without motive toward self gain, and with diligence and effort has everything to do with understanding what the Lord will reveal .... but it must always be on His terms
He will withhold nothing from one who seeks His truth without design .... He knows one's motives and will reveal nothing to those who do otherwise .... and even confuse those who do
.... and I can assure you that those who claim to know "hidden manna", "secret" things, and "new" revelations are those who come to deceive and pervert truth
This behavior is no new thing and has been going on since human existence and is presently abounding and growing
False prophets and false teachers are attracting many to follow roads that lead to no where and the Lord has warned about this .... those coming in His name and deceiving many in the process
Quote from: Stephen on May 27, 2009, 04:32:04 AM
Taffy,
Intellect has nothing to do with the ability to learn the Lord's truth in the scriptures
The sincere desire without motive toward self gain, and with diligence and effort has everything to do with understanding what the Lord will reveal .... but it must always be on His terms
He will withhold nothing from one who seeks His truth without design .... He knows one's motives and will reveal nothing to those who do otherwise .... and even confuse those who do
.... and I can assure you that those who claim to know "hidden manna", "secret" things, and "new" revelations are those who come to deceive and pervert truth
This behavior is no new thing and has been going on since human existence and is presently abounding and growing
False prophets and false teachers are attracting many to follow roads that lead to no where and the Lord has warned about this .... those coming in His name and deceiving many in the process
Hi Again Stephen :icon_flower:
For me ,The intellect stays at the literal level , as C points out theres others , which some categorize as Mystic among others.
I must dig out that old thread Stephen, it will add to whats shes already stated . :icon_flower:
There are some at Tent wholl stand their corner with you Stephen and there are those who go about it differently ,but again a word of warning, Tis nothing new you bring here Bud. :icon_flower:
Thanks again :icon_flower:T
Taffy,
I need no warning .... I already know what is going on here
And there is nothing new for sure, the Lord's Word is the same past, present, and future
The "new" things are the talk of those who have discovered the "hidden mystical manna"
This is the gnostic gospel that has been around for centuries dressed up in a new package
Well here ya go Stephen as I sense this coming.. an excerpt of that thread I mentioned, this post always stuck in my mind...
ya right its Not new..went back to the TIME of PAUL... :icon_flower:
hope ya dont mind C.... :icon_flower: your welcome to the link to Stephen ,if you desire...this of course is NOT in direct response to you,,but as we are talking Gnostics, Mystics etc....
.
I don't know what you are basing your information on, but here is what they have always used as a principle for studying scripture. It is well known in Jewish circles, and this particular quote is from a Messianic rabbi.
"The system of hebraic understanding used by all hebrew prophets and scholars was and remains a system that goes by the acronym of PARDES which stands for PASHAT/ Literal primary meaning, REMEZ/Hints in the text of something deeper, DRASH/ The added understanding that can only be gleaned by parables, riddles, stories etc and SOD/ Secrets and mysteries which are mysterious underlying secrets revealed in text."
In addition to that, Paul said though I know ALL MYSTERIES...and there are other scriptures that mention mystery or mysteries. So I consider Paul to be the premiere example of a "mystical Christian", particularly since what He was taught of the mysteries was given to Him by the Spirit of the risen Lord not by the disciples who knew Him after the flesh, nor the imaginations of men, and certainly not by the devil.
Obviously there were Jews who went about establishing their own righteousness and it only got worse after Jesus came on the scene (out of bitterness and jealousy); much of the Talmud (which is not considered scripture) is proof of this. But to call THEM "mystical" is inaccurate, just as calling the other "branch" of them not mystical is also inaccurate, as the OT came through mystical experiences with God which is to say, through the Spirit in various ways.
John the Baptist's father was a levitical priest, and he certainly had a mystical experience with the authority of the Spirit of God, as did the devout man Simeon and the woman Anna in the temple at Jesus's presentation. The OT is full of such experiences, and what you fail to realize is that mystical experiences come with understanding, in all your getting, get understanding. The experience cannot be separated from the Spirit of Truth, because they are one and the same, therefore understanding is automatically present.
Understanding here is not as the carnal mind's understanding of a provable fact, but it itself is an attribute of the Spirit of God and is instantaneously deposited into the believer, as if it was something they had always known , ie. no thinking about it was necessary or even possible prior to receiving it, because it BYPASSES THE CARNAL MIND ALTOGETHER and goes directly into the spirit, and THEN is retrievable by the carnal mind, not the other way around.
Simply put, it is the culmination of union, as between a man/Spirit and his wife/soul = "child"/new LIFE. Just as we are not aware of the exact second of conception in the natural, so too are we unaware of the twinkling of an eye split second that the mystical experience brought understanding, for as soon as it happens, it produced new life. Blessings...
:cloud9: You mean THIS, "mystical" manna? Blessings....
Re 2:17 - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the HIDDEN manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Quote from: Cardinal on May 27, 2009, 05:31:06 AM
:cloud9: You mean THIS, "mystical" manna? Blessings....
Re 2:17 - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the HIDDEN manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
For mine I Hope so :icon_flower:
The Lord Thrice :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
Stephen, I don't believe the following quote is an accurate summary of Biblical Ultimate Reconciliation;
"Your core position is that all humans are saved regardless of what they believe .... "
Though I do believe Jesus is indeed the Savior of the world as scripture says He is, the above is NOT what I believe, so it isn't my "core position".
The core position of UR is EMPHATICALLY the Blood of Jesus Christ that has taken away the sin of the world; that He's the ransom for all men, especially of those that believe; that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance; that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us, and when we ask anything according to His will, we have the petitions we have desired of Him; that if we abide in Him and His Word abides in us, then we shall ask what we will and it shall be done for us; that whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved, as well as:
The Scriptures are clear that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, and is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and for those of the world. To bring this out clearly, I append the following chain of passages from a long series, clearly and closely linked together, claiming for Christ a saving empire co-extensive with the whole universe. The connection is clearly marked, for each passage suggests or contains, the same central idea; and thus forms a link in a continuous chain. This chain commences at Creation, when all things were created by Christ, Who, therefore, as St. Paul implies, reconciles(in fact, recreates) all things unto God(Colossians 1:15-20). Hence His work is the restitution of all things(Acts 3:21); He is Heir of all things(Hebrews 1:2); in Him all nations are to be blessed(Galatians 3:8); for the Father has given Him authority over all flesh, to give to whatsoever was given to Him eternal life(John 17:2); and so all flesh shall see the salvation of God(Luke 3:6). For God, Whose counsel is immutable(Hebrews 6:17), Whose attitude towards His enemies is love unchanging(Luke 6:27-35), will have all men to be saved(ITimothy 2:4); and all to come to repentance(2 Peter 3:9); and has shut all up unto unbelief, in order that he may shew mercy upon all(Romans 11:32); for (out) of Him, as Source, and unto (or into) Him, as End, are all things whatsoever(Romans 11:36); and He has, therefore, put all things into subjection under Christ's feet(Ephesians 1:22). And so we are assured that God will gather into one all things in Christ(Ephesians 1:10); and His grace comes upon all men unto justification of life(Romans 5:18). So Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands(John 13:3), promises by His Cross to draw all men unto Himself(John 12:32). For having, as stated, received all things from the Father(John 3:35), all that was given come to Him; and He loses none(John 6:37-39); but if any stray, goes after that which is lost till He find it(Luke 15:4); and so makes all things new(Revelation 21:5). And thus He comes in order that all men may believe(John 1:17); that the world, through Him, may be saved(John 3:17); His grace brings salvation to all men(Titus 2:11); for He takes away the sin of the world(John 1:29); gives His flesh for it's life(John 6:51); and, because the gifts and calling of God are without repentance(Romans 9:29), He gives life to the world(John 6:33); is the light of the world(John 8:12); is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world(1John 2:2); is the Savior of all men(1Timothy 4:10); destroys the works of the devil, not some of them only(1John 3:8); abolishes death(2Timothy 1:10); is manifest to put away sin(Hebrews 9:26); and thus subduing all things unto Himself(Philippians 3:21; the context clearly shows this subjection to be conformity to Himself); does not forget the dead, but takes the gospel to Hades(1Peter 3:19); of which He holds the keys(Revelation 1:18); for He is the same (Savior) for ever(Hebrews 13:8); thus even the dead are evangelized(1Peter 4:6); Thus all are made alive in Him(1Corinthians 15:22); for Christ finishes, completes His work(John 17:4; 19:30): restores all things(Acts 3:21); and there is no more curse(Revelation 22:2-3); but every knee of things in heaven and earth, and under the earth, bends to Him(Philippians 2:10); for the creation is delivered from the bondage of corruption(Romans 8:21); and every creature joins in the song of praise(Revelation 5:13), and so comes the end when Christ delivers up the Kingdom to God, Who is then All in All(1Corinthians 15:24-28).
As well as:
The verbal pivot on which swings the question, Does the Bible teach the doctrine of Endless Punishment? Is the word Aion and its derivatives and reduplications... It will generally be conceded that the tenet referred to is not contained in the Scriptures if the meaning of endless duration does not reside in the controverted word.(From the preface of "THE GREEK WORD AION -- AIONIOS, TRANSLATED Everlasting -- Eternal IN THE HOLY BIBLE, SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION." Written by: REV. JOHN WESLEY HANSON in 1875.)
Adding just a little bit more to this message from J. W. Hanson's book, just cited, for clarity on this subject, if this is the first time you've been presented this issue:
The oldest lexicographer, Hesychius, (A. D. 400-600,) defines aion thus: "The life of man, the time of life."
At this early date no theologian had yet imported into the word the meaning of endless duration. It retained only the sense it had in the classics, and in the Bible.
Theodoret (A. D. 300-4--) "Aion is not any existing thing, but an interval denoting time, sometimes infinite when spoken of God, sometimes proportioned to the duration of the creation, and sometimes to the life of man."
John of Damascus (A. D. 750,) says, "1, The life of every man is called aion. 3, The whole duration or life of this world is called aion. 4, The life after the resurrection is called 'the aion to come.'"
But in the sixteenth century Phavorinus was compelled to notice an addition, which subsequently to the time of the famous Council of 544 had been grafted on the word. He says: "Aion, time, also life, also habit, or way of life. Aion is also the eternal and endless AS IT SEEMS TO THE THEOLOGIAN." Theologians had succeeded in using the word in the sense of endless, and Phavorinus was forced to recognize their usage of it and his phraseology shows conclusively enough that he attributed to theologians the authorship of that use of the word.
Alluding to this definition, Rev. Ezra S. Goodwin, one of the ripest scholars and profoundest critics, said, "Here I strongly suspect is the true secret brought to light of the origin of the sense of eternity in aion. The theologian first thought he perceived it, or else he placed it there. The theologian keeps it there, now. And the theologian will probably retain it there longer than any one else. Hence it is that those lexicographers who assign eternity as one of the meanings of aion uniformly appeal for proofs to either theological, Hebrew, or Rabbinical Greek, or some species of Greek subsequent to the age of the Seventy, if not subsequent to the age of the Apostles, so far as I can ascertain."
From the sixteenth century onward, the word has been defined as used to denote all lengths of duration from brief to endless.
Macknight: "These words being ambiguous, are always to be understood according to the nature and circumstances to which they are applied." He thinks the words sustain endless punishment, but adds: "At the same time I must be so candid as to acknowledge that the use of these terms, forever, eternal and everlasting, in other passages of Scripture, shows that they who understand these words in a limited sense, when applied to punishment, put no forced interpretation upon them."
But the Blessed Life has not been left dependent on so equivocal a word. The soul's immortal and happy existence is taught in the New Testament, by words that in the Bible are never applied to anything that is of limited duration. They are applied to God and the soul's happy existence only. These words are akataluton, imperishable; amarantos and amarantinos, unfading; aphtharto, immortal, incorruptible; and athanasian, immortality. Let us quote some of the passages in which these words occur:
Heb. vii:15, 16, "And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchizedek there ariseth another priest, who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless (akatalutos, imperishable) life." 1 Pet. i:3, 4, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy, hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, (aphtharton,) and undefiled, and that fadeth not (amaranton) away." 1 Pet. v:4, "And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory thatfadeth not (amarantinos) away." 1 Tim. i:17, "Now unto the King eternal, immortal, (aphtharto,) invisible, the only wise god, be honor and glory forever and ever, Amen." Rom. i:23, "And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man." 1 Cor. ix:25, "Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible." 1 Cor. xv:51-54, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, (aphthartoi,) and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, (aphtharsian,) and this mortal must put on immortality (athanasian). So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, (aphtharsian,) and this mortal shall have put on immortality, (athanasian,) then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." Rom. ii:7, "To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, (aphtharsia,) eternal life." 1 Cor. xv:42, "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption (aphtharsia)." See also verse 50, 2 Tim i:10, "Who brought life and immortality (aphtharsian) to light, through the gospel." 1 Tim. vi:16, "Who only hath immortality (athanasian)."
Now these words are applied to God and the soul's happiness. They are words that in the Bible are never applied to punishment, or to anything perishable. They would have been affixed to punishment had the Bible intended to teach endless punishment. And certainly they show the error of those who declare that the indefinite word aiónion is all the word, or the strongest word in the Bible declarative of the endlessness of the life beyond the grave. A little more study of the subject would prevent such reckless statements and would show that the happy, endless life does not depend at all on the pet word of the partialist critics.
There is but one Greek word beside aiónios rendered everlasting, and applied to punishment, in the New Testament, and that is the word aidios found in Jude 6: "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgement of the great day." This word is found in but one other place in the New Testament, viz. Rom. i:20: "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead."
Now it is admitted that this word among the Greeks had the sense of eternal, and should be understood as having that meaning wherever found, unless by express limitation it is shorn of its proper meaning. It is further admitted that had aidios occurred where aiónios does, there would be no escape from the conclusion that the New Testament teaches Endless Punishment. It is further admitted that the word is here used in the exact sense of aiónios, as is seen in the succeeding verse: "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." That is to say, the "aidios" chains in verse 6 are "even as" durable as the aiónion fire" in verse 7. Which word modifies the other?
1. The construction of the language shows that the latter word limits the former. The aidios chains are even as the aiónion fire. As if one should say "I have been infinitely troubled, I have been vexed for an hour," or "He is an endless talker, he can talk five hours on a stretch." Now while "infinitely" and "endless" convey the sense of unlimited, they are both limited by what follows, as aidios, eternal, is limited by aiónios, indefinitely long.
2. That this is the correct exegesis is evident from still another limitation of the word. "The angels - - - he hath reserved in everlasting chains UNTO the judgement of the great day." Had Jude said that the angels are held in aidios chains, and stopped there, not limiting the word, we should not dare deny that he taught their eternal imprisonment. But when he limits the duration by aiónion and then expressly states that it is only unto a certain date, we understand that the imprisonment will terminate, even though we find applied to it a word that intrinsically signifies eternal duration, and that was used by the Greeks to convey the idea of eternity, and was attached to punishment by the Greek Jews of our Savior's times, to describe endless punishment, in which they were believers.
But observe, while this word aidios was in universal use among the Greek Jews of our Savior's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment, he never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of his disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which his contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? He never employed it. What ground then is there for saying that he adopted the language of his day on this subject? Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, he discipline, resulting in reformation. - end quote
Let me quote something briefly from a scholarly work by Thomas Allin, entitled "Christ Triumphant":
"Let me state the dilemma clearly. Aion either means endless duration (in Scriptural usage) as its necessary, or at least it's ordinary significance, or it does not. If it does, the following difficulties at once arise; 1 - How if it means an endless period can aion have a plural? 2 - How came such phrases to be used as those repeatedly occuring in Scripture, where aion is added to aion, if aion is of itself infinite? 3 - How come such phrases as for the "aion" or aions and beyond? - ton aiona kai ep aiona kai eti: eis tous aionas kai eti. - See (Sept.) Ex. xv. 18; Dan xii. 3; Micah iv. 5. 4 - How is it that we repeatedly read of the end of the aion? - S. Matt. xiii. 39-40-49; xxiv. 3; xxviii. 20; 1Cor. x. 11; Heb. ix. 26. 5 - Finally, if aion be infinite, why is it applied over and over to what is strictly finite? e.g., S. Mark iv. 19; Acts iii. 21; Rom. xii. 2; 1Cor. i. 20, ii. 6, iii. 18, x. 11, &c., &c. But if an aion be not infinite, what right have we to render the adjective aionios (which depends on it's meaning on aion) by the terms "eternal" (when used as the equivalent of "endless") and "everlasting?" Indeed our translators have really done further hurt to those who can only read their English Bible. They have, wholly obscured a very important doctrine, that of "the ages." This when fully understood throws a flood of light on the plan of redemption, and the method of the divine working." - end quote.
Ancient writings, other than the Scriptures, show how aion and aionios were used in the ordinary affairs of that time period. Long ago in Rome, periodic games were held. These were referred to as "secular" games. Herodian, who wrote in Greek about the end of the second century A.D., called these aionios, "eonian," games. In no sense could those games have been eternal.
In 1Enoch 10:10 there is an interesting statement using the Greek words: zoên aionion, "life eonian," or, as in the KJV, "everlasting life" (at John 3:16 and elswhere). The whole sentence in Enoch is, hoti elpizousi zêsai zoên aionion, kai hoti zêsetai hekastos auton etê pentakosia, "For they hope to live an eonian life, and that each one of them will live five hundred years." Here, eonian life is limited to five hundred years!
St. Justin Martyr repeatedly used the word aionios as in the Apol. (p. 57), aionion kolasin ...all ouchi chiliontaetê periodon, "eonian chastening ...but a period, not a thousand years." Or, as some translate the last clause: "but a period of a thousand years only." He limits the eonian chastening to a period of a thousand years, rather than to endlessness.
Josephus shows that aionios did not mean endlessness, for he uses it of the period between the giving of the law to Moses and that of his own writing; to the period of the imprisonment of the tyrant John by the Romans; and to the period during which Herod's temple stood. The temple had already been destroyed by the time Josephus was writing.
Dr. Mangey, a translator of the writings of Philo, says Philo did not use aionios to express endless duration.
Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?"
In the Apostolical Constitutions, a work of the fourth century A.D., it is said, kai touto humin esto nomimon aionion hos tes suntleias to aionos, "And let this be to you an eonian ordinance until the consummation of the eon." Obviously there was no thought in the author's mind of endless time.
In the Iliad and Odyssey Aión occurs thirteen times, as a noun, besides its occurrence as a participle in the sense of hearing, perceiving, understanding. Homer never uses it as signifying eternal duration. Priam to Hector says, "Thyself shall be deprived of pleasant aiónos" (life.) Andromache over dead Hector, "Husband thou hast perished from aiónos" (life or time.)
Pindar gives thirteen instances, such as "A long life produces the four virtues."(Ela de kai tessaras aretas ho makros aión.)
Sophocles nine times. "Endeavor to remain the same in mind as long as you live." Askei toiaute noun di aiónos menein. He also employs makraion five times, as long-enduring. The word long increases the force of aión, which would be impossible if it had the idea of eternity.
Hippocrates. "A human aión is a seven days matter."
Empedocles, An earthly body deprived of happy life, (aiónos.)
Euripides uses the word thirty-two times. I'll quote three instances: "Marriage to those mortals who are well situated is a happy aión." "Every aión of mortals is unstable." "A long aión has many things to say," etc.
From Andrew Jukes's "Restitution of all things" we read:
Every scholar knows that the expressions, "ages," "to the ages," "age of the ages," and "ages of the ages," are unlike anything which occurs in the heathen Greek writers. The reason is, that the inspired writers, and they alone, understood the mystery and purpose of the "ages." They, or at least the Spirit which spake by them, saw that there would be a succession of "ages," a certain number of which constituted another greater "age." It seems to me that when they simply intended a duration of many "ages," they wrote "to the ages." When they had in view a greater and more comprehensive "age," including in it many other subordinate "ages," they wrote "to the age of ages." When they intended the longer "age" alone, without regard to its constituent parts, they wrote "to an aeonial age"; this form of expression being a Hebraism, exactly equivalent to "age of the ages:" like "liberty of glory," for "glorious liberty," (Rom. viii. 21,) and "body of our vileness," for "our vile body." (Phil. iii. 21.) When they intended the several comprehensive "ages" collectively, they wrote "to the ages of ages." Each varying form is used with a distinct purpose and meaning. - end of quote.
Additionally:
Many Lexicon editors derive the word "aidios" from aei, ever, or always: but it very likely has the same etymology as "hades," which they derive from a negative, and idein, "to see;" and therefore it signifies invisible, unseen, or unknown. In Romans 1:20 where it is applied to the power of God, it's translated "unknown" by Scarlett's New Testament from 1798, because we see or know only a very small part of God's power. The word is used in a limited sense by the Greeks. Thucydides has this phrase "othen aidion misthophoran uparchein" from whence he expected a perpetual salary. But this could be only a salary during his life time, therefore the word in Thucydides means a period unknown, though it will certainly end.
Extracts from John Wesley's Explanatory Notes:
Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
That in the dispensation of the fullness of the times — In this last administration of God's fullest grace, which took place when the time appointed was fully come.
He might gather together into one in Christ — Might recapitulate, re-unite, and place in order again under Christ, their common Head.
All things which are in heaven, and on earth — All angels and men, whether living or dead, in the Lord.
2Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
And all these new things are from God, considered under this very notion, as reconciling us - The world, 2Corinthians 5:19, to himself.
2Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Namely — The sum of which is, God - The whole Godhead, but more eminently God the Father.
Was in Christ, reconciling the world — Which was before at enmity with God.
To himself — So taking away that enmity, which could no otherwise be removed than by the blood of the Son of God.
Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
And every creature — In the whole universe, good or bad.
In the heaven, on the earth, under the earth, on the sea — With these four regions of the world, agrees the fourfold word of praise. What is in heaven, says blessing; what is on earth, honour; what is under the earth, glory: what is on the sea, strength; is unto him. This praise from all creatures begins before the opening of the first seal; but it continues from that time to eternity, according to the capacity of each. His enemies must acknowledge his glory; but those in heaven say, Blessed be God and the Lamb. This royal manifesto is, as it were, a proclamation, showing how Christ fulfils all things, and "every knee bows to him," not only on earth, but also in heaven, and under the earth. This book exhausts all things, 1 Corinthians 15:27,28, and is suitable to an heart enlarged as the sand of the sea. It inspires the attentive and intelligent reader with such a magnanimity, that he accounts nothing in this world great; no, not the whole frame of visible nature, compared to the immense greatness of what he is here called to behold, yea, and in part, to inherit. St. John has in view, through the whole following vision, what he has been now describing, namely, the four living creatures, the elders, the angels, and all creatures, looking together at the opening of the seven seals.
1Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
The Son also shall be subject — Shall deliver up the mediatorial kingdom. That the three-one God may be all in all - All things, (consequently all persons,) without any interruption, without the intervention of any creature, without the opposition of any enemy, shall be subordinate to God. All shall say, "My God, and my all." This is the end. Even an inspired apostle can see nothing beyond this.
I believe in free will. I believe that our freedom plays an essential role in the process whereby God, first, brings us into existence as rational and self-aware beings, and second, perfects us as his sons and daughters. But as a universalist, I also accept two additional Pauline claims: (1) that the very same "all" who died in Adam will most assuredly be made alive in Christ (I Corinthians 15:22), and (2) that our destiny "depends not on human will or exertion, but upon God who shows mercy" (Romans 9:16).
So how do I put these seemingly disparate ideas together? Fortunately, Paul himself teaches us exactly how to put them together consistently. For though Paul clearly rejects the idea that we choose freely between different possible eternal destinies, arguing instead that our destiny is wholly a matter of grace, he nonetheless stresses the importance of choice. "Note then," he writes in his letter to the Romans, "the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise, you also will be cut off." So how we encounter God's love in the future, whether we encounter it as kindness or as severity, is indeed, says Paul, up to us--a matter of free choice, if you will. But our ultimate destiny is not up to us, because God's severity, no less than his kindness, is itself a means of his saving grace. In particular, God's severity towards the unbelieving Jews--even his willingness to blind them, to harden their hearts, and to cut them off for a season--is according to Paul but one of the means whereby God will save all of Israel in the end. In Paul's own words, "a hardening has come upon part of Israel . . .. And so all Israel will be saved" (Romans 11:25-26). What our free choices determine, then, is not our eternal destiny, which is secure from the beginning, but the means required to achieve it. For the more tenaciously we cling to our illusions and selfish desires--to the flesh, as Paul calls it--the more severe will be the means and the more painful the process whereby God shatters our illusions, destroys the flesh, and finally separates us from our sin.
A virtue of the Christian religion, as I see it, is that Christians are never permitted to take credit for their own redemption or even for a virtuous character (where such exists). All credit of this kind goes to God. But the Christian religion also stresses the importance of free choice, of choosing this day whom you shall serve. Nor need there be any tension between these two emphases, provided that we regard our free choices as determining not our eternal destiny, but the means of grace available to us. Essential to the whole redemptive process, I am suggesting, is that we exercise our moral freedom--not that we choose rightly rather than wrongly, but that we choose freely one way or the other. We can choose today to live selfishly or unselfishly, faithfully or unfaithfully, obediently or disobediently. But our choices, especially the bad ones, will also have unintended and unforeseen consequences in our lives; as the proverb says, "The human mind plans the way, but the Lord directs the steps" (16:9). A man who commits robbery may set off a chain of events that, contrary to his own intentions, lands him in jail; and a woman who enters into an adulterous affair may discover that, even though her husband remains oblivious to it, the affair has a host of unforeseen and destructive consequences in her life. In fact, our bad choices almost never get us what we really want; that is part of what makes them bad and also one reason why God is able to bring redemptive goods out of them. When we make a mess of our lives and our misery becomes more and more unbearable, the hell we thereby create for ourselves will in the end resolve the very ambiguity and shatter the very illusions that made the bad choices possible in the first place. That is how God works with created rational agents. He permits them to choose in the ambiguous contexts in which they first emerge as self-aware beings, and he then requires them to learn from experience the hard lessons they sometimes need to learn.
My point is that a pattern of bad choices can be just as useful to God in correcting us and in teaching the lessons of love as a pattern of good choices can be. And perhaps that is one reason why Paul at least raises the embarrassing question: "Should we continue in sin in order that grace may abound?" (Romans 6:1). After all, "where sin increased, grace abounded all the more" (Romans 5:20). But Paul's correct answer is also most emphatic: "By no means!" That the pain I experience when I thrust my hand into a flame may serve a beneficial purpose--because it enables me to avoid an even greater injury in the future--hardly entails that I have a good reason to thrust my hand into the flame again and again. And similarly, that the misery and unhappiness that sin brings into a life can serve a redemptive purpose--because it can provide a compelling motive to repent--hardly implies that one has a good reason to keep on sinning and to continue making oneself more and more miserable.
More than a few have charged that universalists operate with an overly sentimental conception of God's love. But no one who actually reads the early Christian universalists, such as Origen or St. Gregory of Nyssa, could possibly come away with that misconception. If anything, the idea that God will in the end destroy sin altogether rests upon a more rigorous conception of God's holy love than does the idea that he will keep sin alive throughout an eternity of hell. For according to the former idea, God will not permit any of us to cling forever to our illusions or to remain forever ignorant of the true nature of our selfish choices. We are free to sin and perhaps even to sin with relative impunity for awhile, but in no way are we free to sin with impunity forever. So unless we first repent of our sin and step into the life that Christ brings to us, God will sooner or later--in the next life, if not in this one--permit our illusions to shatter against the hard rock of reality. In that respect, God's holy love is like a consuming fire (see Hebrews 12:29); it will continue to burn us until it finally purges us of all that is false within us. The more we freely rebel against it and try to defeat it, the more deeply and inexorably it will burn, until every conceivable motive for disobedience is consumed and we are finally transformed from the inside out. And so God will eventually destroy sin in the only way possible short of annihilation: by redeeming the sinners themselves.
:2thumbs:
Quote from: Stephen on May 26, 2009, 07:42:36 PM
The pre-tribulational, pre-millennial, dispensational [time frames and time lapse] overview and methodology of rendering truth from the scriptures is the correct approach for the student of Bible prophecy...
I hope this isn't too obnoxious of me 'cause I believed the exact same three years ago and back, before doing my own studying rather than reading everybody else's materials, but :laugh: :laugh2: :LH: :rolllol: :mrflo:
Two links for you to look at, brother:
95 Thesis Against Dispensationalism (http://www.againstdispensationalism.com/95theses.shtml)
And a short primer on Postmillenialism that, along the way, gives a concise series of propositions on why neither the Amillenial nor the Premillenial positions hold water:
http://www.berith.org/essays/esch (http://www.berith.org/essays/esch)
And UR is the UTTER REFUTATION of gnosticism because gnosticism is still the Pharisaical exclusivity that isn't Biblical exclusivity of only through Christ Jesus, but tries to assert that there's some hidden knowledge through which one may attain personal whatever independent of Christ Jesus our Lord.
Sorry martin, but I see your trip of the UR a primary source of gnosticism with all of its trappings
The only thing I would agree with in the fabrication of UR gnosticism is that the scriptures taken in congruity and with correct understanding do not support eternal punishment .... the rest of the dogma is dangerously false
In fact, never ending "punishment" is extinction .... with no recourse .... ever .... as the scriptures clearly convey
:cloud9: Awesome posts, Martin........ :goodpost: :Urock:
Stephen, I guess I'm confused as to your purpose here at tent. It's clear that you hold none of the same views as the majority here . . . you are already pegging us with labels such as, false teachers, Gnosticism, mystics. You're new here so I presume that you haven't read all the threads over the months to know . . . and I'm not saying this to boast, as far as I'm concerned, religious credentials are little more that a pile of dung, as Paul puts it . . .but just to give you a little more background, I pastor a church . .have been for 7 years . . .and I'm a self-proclaimed heretic . . . I find myself being more boastful over the latter part of that than the former anymore.
I don't disagree that studying the word has many benefits, so long as the reader pursues the revelational end of things rather than embracing the literal and moral and brushing off the spiritual. By embracing the literal and moral, we become rigid in our stands . . .but truthfully, it's not light we're standing in as much as it is our knowledge about light.
Truth changes one's personality in such a way when there is an individual that challenges us with another point of view, even though we may not agree, love supercedes . .and I mean real love, not the claim of love . . . "that" is the nature of Christ. He didn't instill the nature of doctrine in us . . .he instilled the nature of love so that we don't kill each other with our doctrines.
So . .. back to the original thought I started this with . . .why are you here? Are you here to establish your doctrine on the board? Or are you looking for relationship? There's no such thing as having too many friends. But at the same time, a clanging symbol does get a bit annoying after a while.
We are all at different places in our relationship with the Father. We are all working out our own salvation . . .so there is seldom any mass of people anywhere that are in the same room of relationship. Thus far, I disagree with your hardlined doctrines . .but that doesn't take away from the fact that you are not still God's kid. No one is questioning your relationship with the Father.
But I for one do not choose to defend my relationship with the Father by proving to you my doctrine in the Father. I believe in UR . . but if I'm wrong . .. nothing changes . .I still choose to pursue Christ. And I tell others that if they think that because we're all going to end up at the same place in the end of all things, that they can then live however they wish, they are missing the entire point and purpose of the cross.
The purpose of UR for me is not to let people live how ever they choose to live in themselves, but it's to allow me to live freely in Christ. His yoke is "easy" his burden is "light" . . .yet these claims that freedom only comes through much study in the Word . . .where does that leave the illiterate? Are you then saying that only those who can read can be saved?
We understand that this approach of UR is pretty much in the face of traditional thinking . . .but we're also willing to get off the religious bandwagon and find a "personal" relationship with the Father . . .anything else is a corporate relationship . . . I was raised in that . .and it led me to this . .and I'm much more fulfilled in this than I ever was in that.
Blessings.
Nathan,
"why are you here?"
>I could ask you the same question
>I am not judging you, but I do seriously question your current beliefs with regard to the Lord's Word ..... this all christian leaders must do for the sake of those engaged in questionable philosophies that do not line up with the scriptures
>My suggestion to you is that you should return to the Lord's Word and by pass all of the false teachers of pseudo christian movements that have developed ... there are many and they can be very misleading even to the extent of robbing one of their own salvation
>Those you may have been associated with in the past and their related teachings have obviously fallen short of your expectations .... I am aware of most all of them and have spent considerable time convincing members to move away .... primarily those that reflect obvious "cultish" behaviors
>Your current escape refuge is not scriptural for many reasons in my opinion and your continuation on the UR road is not the place to be ... you must deal with this yourself
>Seek the Lord and His truth from scripture alone and He will show it to you if your motives are acceptable to Him and you are willing to spend the time and effort on your part
>My purpose is to bring truth to the lost who doubt the Bible's authenticity and to give support for those who believe in Jesus Christ and need encouragement to stay the coarse
>I might also add that all humans have no excuse to ignore the Creator and to seek Him .... even the deaf dumb and blind .... or the jungle savage
Romans
1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
>He will always make a way for those who seek .... and they will be saved
I am looking foward to your seventh-thousand post.
Luke 9:5 (Young's Literal Translation)
and as many as may not receive you, going forth from that city, even the dust from your feet shake off, for a testimony against them.'
It takes awhile for my feet to get dusty
Quote from: Stephen on May 27, 2009, 07:24:40 PM
>Seek the Lord and His truth from scripture alone and He will show it to you if your motives are acceptable to Him and you are willing to spend the time and effort on your part
Do you assume (most) people are UR followers because they do not read the Bible but the words of man?
Quote>My purpose is to bring truth to the lost who doubt the Bible's authenticity and to give support for those who believe in Jesus Christ and need encouragement to stay the coarse
No more Bible but reading your posts and following your teachings?
I have no problem with the fact that your interpretation of the Bible is different from all (vast majority) on this forum.
Reading your posts I think you are a serious studier of the Bible and your conclusions are honest.
But that last line applies to the vast majority on this forum.
So.... I find it unfair (not to say a bit insulting) to imply that people on this forum are wrong because they don't study the Bible.
Maybe they misunderstood things. But perhaps it's you that misunderstood things.
Just my :2c:
And perhaps it is those you speak of who are in error
Only the Lord knows the score for sure
Salvation and eternity are serious considerations that all humans must deal with
Yes. That's why I wrote:
QuoteMaybe they misunderstood things.
It's just my opinion that a little open minded discussion can be fruitful.
Digging trenches from the start of a discussion usually is sign that neither side will learn anything.
Besides what high blood pressure is perhaps... :laughing7:
"It's just my opinion that a little open minded discussion can be fruitful"
>You should try this
>And one must never compromise the Lord's written Word for any reason
QuoteAnd one must never compromise the Lord's written Word for any reason
Point me to the post where I wrote or implied that.
Romans 14 (King James Version)
1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
16Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
17For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
A wonderful reminder for us all there beloved servant . . .great words.
Stephen . .. sigh . . .you wrote
>My purpose is to bring truth to the lost who doubt the Bible's authenticity and to give support for those who believe in Jesus Christ and need encouragement to stay the coarse
After your 30 years of intense study . . . do you then conclude "you" understand all truth? Is it no longer a possibility with you that perhaps there are other dimensions in Scripture that lead to whole other realms of truth and freedom in Christ?
Your statement of your purpose was very telling . . .you are here to instruct . .you are not here to receive . .and thus our delimma. For me, I see us as created beings that rely on the working body parts of other members . .thus, the reference to submitting one to another . . . yet your purpose seems to be missing that.
Which is more important to you? Doctrine? Or relationship?
Nathan, I've asked that same question twice...interestingly, no answer.
I will say for all those reading who may be wondering why the things of the past couple of days have been allowed to happen. Everyone gets a chance to interact appropriately; information on forum guidelines have been provided. Another mod/admin may see it differently, but as far as I'm concerned, the long bodies of "teaching" posts will begin to be interrupted and deleted down to specific points that can be conversational dialogue. Us mods can arm-wrestle over it behind the scenes :laughing7:...just kidding, we work pretty well together.
The Apostle Paul said we look through a glass darkly. If he felt that way, then I seriously doubt anyone of us posting on the internet see things any differently, holding complete understanding of all God has said.
Things actually appear more reasonable/conversational today. It's OK to see things differently, but that will be communicated appropriately, as the forum guidelines are for all.
James.
Stephen,
I'm one of the ones that ET ALWAYS DID AND STILL makes perfect sense to, [because it's carnal thinking; annihilationism even works with my carnal mind,] but what TOTALLY MATTERS ISN'T what makes sense but what the Scriptures CLEARLY teach, and the Scriptures clearly declare something much more glorious -- the summation of all of Creation in Christ Jesus, and God ultimately being all in all -- rather than all in most or all in some or all in a few -- is the clear teaching of Scripture. I would encourage you to get a book by Dr Harold Lovelace that I wish I'd had my 42 month very thorough investigation of UR because it lists in KJV about 350 passages of Scripture that either support UR or that clearly establish the Scriptural vocabulary that the Bible is emphatically teaching UR. His book is attainable through his website at: http://www.haroldlovelace.com (http://www.haroldlovelace.com)
Quote from: Stephen on May 27, 2009, 02:37:52 PMIn fact, never ending "punishment" is extinction .... with no recourse .... ever .... as the scriptures clearly convey
Annihilationism was actually the perspective of the gnostics who believed that those that didn't attain to this hidden knowledge outside of Christ Jesus would perish utterly, and usually identifies someone as having the other heresies of either the JWs or the 7th Days that deny quite a few cardinal doctrines of the New Testament. For your reconsideration of annihilation, have a look at a brief exchange between Russell Miller and A.E. Knoch at this link:
http://www.geocities.com/kencallen/russell.html (http://www.geocities.com/kencallen/russell.html)
Furthermore, with regards to what you've said:
The opinion of the annihilation of the wicked, which has at different times been held by some, as a refuge from the doctrine of never-ending punishment, is not only opposed to the whole analogy of our regeneration, which shews how death and judgment are the only way of life and deliverance for a fallen creature, but also so directly contradicts what is said of "death" in Scripture, that it is difficult to conceive how it could ever have been accepted by believers. Even before the reason of the Cross is seen, the very letter of Scripture, one might have thought, would have kept men from concluding that the "death," "destruction," and "perishing," of the wicked means their non-existence or annihilation. For what is "death"? What is "destruction"? How are these words invariably used in Holy Scripture?
First, as to "death," are any of the varied deaths, which Scripture speaks of as incident to man, his non-existence or annihilation? Take as examples the deaths referred to by St. Paul , in the sixth, seventh, and eighth chapters of the Epistle to the Romans. We read, (chapt. vi. 7,) "He that is dead is freed from sin." Is this "death," which is freedom from sin, non-existence or annihilation? Again, where the Apostle says, (chapt. vii. 9,) "I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died,"—was this "death," wrought in him by the law, annihilation? Again, where he says, (chapt. viii. 6,) "To be carnally minded is death," is this death non-existence or annihilation? And again, when he says (chapt. viii. 38,) "Neither death nor life shall separate us," is the "death" here referred to annihilation? When Adam died on the day he sinned, (Gen. ii. 17,) was this annihilation? When his body died, and turned to dust, (Gen. v. 5,) was this annihilation? Is our "death in trespasses and sins," (Eph. ii. 1, 2,) annihilation? Is our "death to sin," (Rom. vi. 11,) annihilation? When the "corn of wheat falls into the ground and dies," (S. John xii. 24,) is it annihilated; or is St. Paul right in saying, (1 Cor. xv. 37,) "That which thou sowest is not quickened except it die?" Do not these and similar uses of the word prove beyond all question, that whatever else these deaths may be, not one of them is non-existence or annihilation? On what grounds, I ask, are we to assign a sense to this particular death which confessedly the word "death" has not and cannot have elsewhere? Where is the proof that there is and can be no resurrection from the second death?
The truth is, death for man is simply an end to, and separation from, some given form of life which he has lived in. Death to God is separation from His world of light, by the destruction, through the lie of the serpent, of the divine life of light and love in us. Death to sin, the exact converse of this, is the separation from the world of darkness, by the destruction, through the truth, of the dark life of unbelief and self-love. The death wrought by the law is the end of, and separation from, our fallen carnal life of self-sufficiency; while what is commonly called death, namely the death of the body, is simply our separation from the outward world, in which we live, as partakers of its outward life, while we are in the body.
Once let us see that there are three worlds, each having its own life,--a light world, a dark world, and this outward seen world,--and then what is said in Scripture of the new birth, or of the varied deaths we pass through, becomes at once self-evident. For the only way into any world is by a birth into it, even as the only way out of any world is by a death to it. We have by sin died to God's light-world, to fall into and live in a spirit-world of darkness. We must by the truth, that is by Christ, die to this dark spirit-world, to return to live in God's light-world. The outward birth and death of the body, and its life, have only to do with the outward seen world.
For this reason it is that the word "destruction," as used in Scripture, never means annihilation. Take for instance the words of the xcth Psalm, "Thou turnest man to destruction: again Thou sayest, Come again, ye children of men." Can "destruction" here be annihilation? Is it not rather that dissolution which must take place if fallen creatures are ever to be brought back perfectly to God's kingdom. So again, Job says, (chapt. xix. 10,) "He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone"; and again, (chapt. ix. 22,) "This one thing I said, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked." But does he mean to say that he is brought to non-existence, or that the "perfect" will be so destroyed, that they will exist no longer? So, again, St. Peter says, (2 Ep. iii. 6,) "The world that then was perished." So, again, of the present heavens and earth it is said, (Heb. i. 11, 12,) "They shall perish, . . . and be changed." So, again, both of Israel and Jerusalem it is said, (Deut. xxx. 18; Jer. xii. 17; xv. 6;) that they shall be "destroyed" and "perish." But does any one suppose that therefore they will be annihilated? So, again, as to the expression, "them that perish," sometimes translated "the lost"; (see 2 Cor. iv. 3; 1 Cor. i. 18; 2 Cor. ii. 15;) do we not know that these "lost," though they "perish," still exist, and exist both as "lost" ones and "saved" ones, as text on text will testify abundantly. So as to the righteous, in the well-known passage of Isaiah; (chapt. lvii, 1;) "The righteous "perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart";--is this "perishing" non-existence? So, again, where we read, in Psalm lxxxiii. 16-18, "Fill their faces with shame, that they may seek thy name, O Lord: let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame and perish; that men " (literally " they ," for the word " men " is not in the Original,) "may know that Thou, whose name is Jehovah, art the Most High over all the earth;"—men are to be "confounded for ever and perish, that they may know Jehovah."
So as to the question, "Wilt Thou shew wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise Thee? Shall thy loving-kindness be declared in the grave, or they faithfulness in destruction?"—is the true answer, Yes, or No? Is not the "losing" or "destruction" of our fallen life the only way to a better one? Does not our Lord Himself say more than once, (S. Matt. x. 39; xvi. 25; S. John xii. 25;) that the way to "save our life," or "soul," is to "lose it," or "have it destroyed," in its fallen form, that it may be re-created?
These last words should of themselves settle this question, for in one place, (S. Matt. x. 39,) they occur in immediate connexion (see verse 28,) with those other well-known words, as to "fearing him who can destroy both body and soul in hell," which are constantly quoted by some to prove, as they think, that "destruction" must be non-existence. And yet, in the very closest connexion with these words, our Lord repeats the self-same word, "destroy," (in our Authorized Version translated "lose"—it is the word apollumi, on which some build so much,) to express that death and dissolution of the soul, which, so far from bringing it to non-existence, is the appointed way to save it. Christ saves it, as we have seen, by death; for being fallen into sin, what is needed is "that the body of sin should be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Rom. vi. 6.) The elect, that is the first-fruits, are the living proof of this. A "new man" is created in them, and the "old man" dies and is destroyed, while yet he in whom all this is done remains through all the same person. It may be, and is, a riddle, like "dying, and behold we live: having nothing, and yet possessing all things"; yet it is only the riddle of the Cross, that "by death God destroys him that has the power of death." Therefore, though destruction, like death, may be, and is, a ceasing from some particular form of life which has been lived in by man, yet it is never non-existence absolutely; rather it is the means to bring the fallen creature into a new life, a chaos being ever the necessary condition for a new creation.
As for the argument, founded by some on the word apollumi , that because it is one of the strongest in the Greek language to express destruction, therefore that destruction must be irremediable, the simple answer is, that the question is not whether the destruction is great, but whether God is not still greater, and therefore whether He is not able even out of the destruction to bring forth better things. This at least is certain, that both in the New Testament and in the Classical Greek, the word in question is used of those who though "destroyed" are yet "saved." To the passages already quoted from the New Testament I will only add one more:--"The Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost :" (S. Luke xix. 10.)
Your view lacks comprehensive inclusion Martin .... you are skipping over this biblical fact
Revelation
20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Eternity begins in Chapter 21 .... but all will be held accountable first regarding their position with the Lord .... the wheat [believers] will be gathered into the barn [of eternal life] and the tares [unbelievers] will be burned in His lake of fire and lost forever
:cloud9: Hi Stephen......may I suggest you do a thorough study on the wheat and the tares and ask the LORD to show you? Blessings to you.....
Quote from: Stephen on May 28, 2009, 02:21:14 AM
Your view lacks comprehensive inclusion Martin .... you are skipping over this biblical fact
Revelation
20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Eternity begins in Chapter 21 .... but all will be held accountable first regarding their position with the Lord .... the wheat [believers] will be gathered into the barn [of eternal life] and the tares [unbelievers] will be burned in His lake of fire and lost forever
And your view skips over the biblical fact (among others) that John did not receive the final revelations, Paul did. What is occurring in Revelation is still occurring in time, not eternity.
"may I suggest you do a thorough study on the wheat and the tares and ask the LORD to show you?"
He already has C .... you should post you rendering
:cloud9: I already have :winkgrin: Blessings...
Doc,
"And your view skips over the biblical fact (among others) that John did not receive the final revelations, Paul did. What is occurring in Revelation is still occurring in time, not eternity"
>That's a new twist .... Revelation is the Lord's, not John's [read the first chapter]
..... and the Lord who has has given the final composite of His Word for sure
>The things that are ..... and still are today ..... chapters 1, 2, and 3
>And the things that shall be "hereafter" .... when He intervenes to bring His judgment and wrath of the tribulation period which is next on His schedule for the earth dwellers .... these things begin in chapter 4 and the scene switches back and forth from heaven to the earth as Revelation unfolds
>Then He will seek to destroy all national governments and rule the earth Himself for 1,000 years ..... then the judgment of all of the human dead who have and will refuse Him
....and then eternity
>Revelation presents this time lapse without a doubt
>Events over the past 2,000 years are not recorded in the scope of the prophetic visions
>The time of the end, all of the things written "hereafter", is still pending
C,
"I already have"
>Do it again on this thread so I can see it
Quote from: Stephen on May 28, 2009, 03:17:59 AM
Doc,
"And your view skips over the biblical fact (among others) that John did not receive the final revelations, Paul did. What is occurring in Revelation is still occurring in time, not eternity"
>That's a new twist .... Revelation is the Lord's, not John's [read the first chapter]
..... and the Lord who has has given the final composite of His Word fore sure
>The things that are ..... and still are today ..... chapters 1, 2, and 3
>And the things that shall be "hereafter" .... when He intervenes to bring His judgment and wrath of the tribulation period which is next on His schedule for the earth dwellers .... these things begin in chapter 4 and the scene switches back and forth from heaven to the earth as Revelation unfolds
>Then He will seek to destroy all national governments and rule the earth Himself for 1,000 years ..... then the judgment of all of the human dead who have and will refuse Him
....and then eternity
>Revelation presents this time lapse without a doubt
>Events over the past 2,000 years are not recorded in the scope of the prophetic visions
>The time of the end, all of the things written "hereafter", is still pending
How about not putting words in my mouth? John
received the revelation (from Christ, whose revelation it was), it wasn't "his" revelation, nor did I say it was.
As for the rest, that's your interpretation of it.
Quote from: Stephen on May 28, 2009, 03:04:17 AM
"may I suggest you do a thorough study on the wheat and the tares and ask the LORD to show you?"
He already has C .... you should post you rendering
Actually, that's one of the most studied, preached, taught passages in UR circles for centuries. :winkgrin: Don't prematurely dismiss any book you find any recommendation to on these boards. Read Elhanan Winchester's "The Universal Restoration" as well, available usually from http://www.abebooks.com (http://www.abebooks.com) and from google's book section. But I've had
four or five complaints already that you're being a bit too abusive, so you're on thin ice around here, though I'll fairly review every single post you've made for someone just taking you [and your different perspective] that way rather than taking anyone's word for it. Different perspective is abundantly welcomed, and there's no such thing as a stupid question around here. However, different spirits are never tolerated if you're not representing the Spirit of the Everlasting Gospel.
Quote from: Doc on May 28, 2009, 03:26:22 AM
[As for the rest, that's your interpretation of it.
Hallelujah, Doc, thanks for the reminder that what we have is our view, how we see it, how we understand it, in our opinion, what we believe. We see through a glass darkly, that's why sharing, give-and-take is so important. :thumbsup:. God just may change my view on some things tomorrow...it'll be a lot easier for me if He doesn't have to knock me off my pedestal first.
Good, Martin. Discussion, not lecture please.
I've reviewed his previous posts and haven't seen anything the least bit inappropriate thus far with the spirit in which Stephen is sharing. It's mostly all stuff that I believed during the 80s and 90s -- practically word for word in some areas, until he goes annihilationist on us and teeters on the abusive about things he's very obviously never read enough of the forum or of the main website to more carefully consider. He's preaching doctrines of men, but not the Scriptures, but as long as he's presenting the Scriptures themselves as he understands them, he has a right to his posts. Although, as I said, most of what he shares has already been refuted on these very boards 75 times. Annoying, but not abusive thus far, so hopefully nobody else will message me about him 'cause I'm keeping the boards as a place of open dialogue and anyone that's just too annoyed to engage him, simply ignore him. However, show me genuine abusiveness on his part and the matter's already settled. But if I banned folks over a difference of opinion, there'd be probably two people on these boards, so...
I agree, as long as it's discussion (which it has been more of the past 24 hours) versus large bodies of lecturing/teaching, much being blatantly contrary to Gary's teaching and expectations.
I very much agree that holding views that are different and discussing them is one thing, and can be a good thing, if done appropriately. However, I personally stick with what was decided some time back, that large bodies of teaching should not be against Gary's. I've seen you abstain yourself from doing that, and I think we should hold all to the same standard. I certainly don't agree with everything everyone else on here believes, nor probably Gary, or J. Preston Eby, etc., etc. But I believe a level of respect is expected. Discussion vs. large bodies of teaching...that's how I see it, anywhooo.....my :2c:.
P.S. And for ALL OF US, I continue to remind and encourage we present as "in my opinion/as I understand it", etc. Much different than that, and it can come across as someone being a "know-it-all" or setting themselves up as an "expert" above others; and personally, I'm highly more likely to skip over those posts and/or take what they say with a grain of salt. :coffee2:
Quote from: jabcat on May 28, 2009, 04:45:54 AM
I agree, as long as it's discussion (which it has been more of the past 24 hours) versus large bodies of lecturing/teaching, much being blatantly contrary to Gary's teaching and expectations.
I very much agree that holding views that are different and discussing them is one thing, and can be a good thing, if done appropriately. However, I personally stick with what was decided some time back, that large bodies of teaching should not be against Gary's. I've seen you abstain yourself from doing that, and I think we should hold all to the same standard. I certainly don't agree with everything everyone else on here believes, nor probably Gary, or J. Preston Eby, etc., etc. But I believe a level of respect is expected. Discussion vs. large bodies of teaching...that's how I see it, anywhooo.....my :2c:.
You're right. We'll just keep an eye on things and participate when we have the liberty of the Holy Spirit and when our flesh wouldn't be in the way.
:tease: Oh, wrong one...try this one :thumbsup:. :laughing7:
Sounds good...just messin' around there :happy3:
Quote from: jabcat on May 28, 2009, 04:59:19 AM
:tease: Oh, wrong one...try this one :thumbsup:. :laughing7:
As long as things are light-hearted and aren't a personal crusade, but are being governed by the best of one's understanding of the Word and the Anointing on their lives, flowing from a very rich prayer life, I have zero problems with it. I've had the Lord correct me more than once through my own preaching, so that's why my attitude is to always let folks share 'cause if the Holy Spirit is in there somewhere, He can do wonders in the heart while someone's sharing their best understanding of the Word at the time. It was through my own preaching that I came into Postmillenialism WAY BEFORE I'd ever even heard of it. I'd never run across it before, but boy, I sure did start googling about the book of Revelation and seeing what was online of info on various perspectives 'cause I wasn't sure if God had given me something unique that no one else had ever seen before, as He's done a time or two on other matters I can't discuss here, but could provide an avalanche of Scripture on, or whether it was just new to me. And come to find out, I'd simply believed the dispensational premillenialist view out of having genuinely been exposed to nothing else, and because I erroneously believed such cookie cutting of Scripture, arbitrarily changing definitions to fit a theory, such as "this generation" as one example of many, gap theories that were nonexistent in the Scriptures between the resurrections and other things, etc. I was much more shaken by my move into Postmillenialism than my move into UR, so I totally understand if Stephen were to have an [off of the boards] cussing fit over some of the stuff around here. Had it not come to me in such a supernatural way, I might still be on the Left Behind publishing gravy train. When I believed most of what Stephen believes, my attitude was the same as now of genuinely believing that I believed all of the Scriptures at face value. I can relate, believe me.
Quote from: martincisneros on May 28, 2009, 05:10:59 AM
I've had the Lord correct me more than once through my own preaching, so that's why my attitude is to always let folks share 'cause if the Holy Spirit is in there somewhere, He can do wonders in the heart while someone's sharing their best understanding of the Word at the time. It was through my own preaching that I came into Postmillenialism WAY BEFORE I'd ever even heard of it.
:cloud9: That's very true, Martin........ :thumbsup:
You're right, that's often how we learn...by sharing...either hearing ourself or someone else. I was thinking earlier regarding the sharing as "IMO" thing...I think you're right, it's mosly the spirit/attitude, not if I necessarily preface my remarks with that every time. Also, a little thought along these lines...God may show me/teach me some things differently tomorrow. It will be a lot easier for me if He doesn't have to knock me off my pedestal first :laughing7:. And boy, have I ever been knocked off my (self-made) pedestal before!
Yeah, it's just easier to stay humble. You're more believable that way, if by chance you ever did have a change in perspective. 'Cause then you'll want to run out and tell everyone of your altered views and your absolute rejoicing in the Lord for the bigger picture, only to find faces looking at you as though "but you were just as sure about what you were saying before, how do you know you're even remotely right now??" A lack of humility always needlessly hardens the hearts of others who hear someone lacking in that humility. And then when you've really got a rushing mighty wind and tongues of fire upon your head, then it takes so much longer and harder to get through -- as St. Paul learned the painfully, tearful hard way with trying to deal with Israel after his altered views of the Cross and Resurrection. But if people know you doubt your own infallibility but are simply walking in the light you have at the time, then they'll ALWAYS listen, and your current hearers will often follow you through the transition, even if it winds up being "eventually." 'Cause they'll know, if you were grounded in humility that could only come from Christ and baring His yoke, that you weren't looking for something so far out when He did open your eyes.
Revelation 3:14-22 (New King James Version)
The Lukewarm Church
14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans[a] write,
'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."'
Quote from: Beloved Servant on May 28, 2009, 05:37:47 AM
Revelation 3:14-22 (New King James Version)
The Lukewarm Church
14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans[a] write,
'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."'
Amen! :Sparkletooth:
Quote from: martincisneros on May 28, 2009, 04:39:15 AM
But if I banned folks over a difference of opinion, there'd be probably two people on these boards, so...
I'd ban myself, 'cause I got several differences of opinion in my brain pan. One that I've accepted as a paradox for some years, absolutely contradictory truths! which I will not elaborate on now, is;
Nobody's getting by with anything.
Everybody's getting by with everything.
yeah, even Hitler is saved!
Martin,
I have studied all of these views and am convinced that the pre-millennial/dispensational approach is the correct one
However, I do not agree with a number of precepts currently held by some who follow this line of interpretation
Quote from: jabcat on May 28, 2009, 04:45:54 AM
I agree, as long as it's discussion (which it has been more of the past 24 hours) versus large bodies of lecturing/teaching, much being blatantly contrary to Gary's teaching and expectations.
I very much agree that holding views that are different and discussing them is one thing, and can be a good thing, if done appropriately. However, I personally stick with what was decided some time back, that large bodies of teaching should not be against Gary's. I've seen you abstain yourself from doing that, and I think we should hold all to the same standard. I certainly don't agree with everything everyone else on here believes, nor probably Gary, or J. Preston Eby, etc., etc. But I believe a level of respect is expected. Discussion vs. large bodies of teaching...that's how I see it, anywhooo.....my :2c:.
P.S. And for ALL OF US, I continue to remind and encourage we present as "in my opinion/as I understand it", etc. Much different than that, and it can come across as someone being a "know-it-all" or setting themselves up as an "expert" above others; and personally, I'm highly more likely to skip over those posts and/or take what they say with a grain of salt. :coffee2:
What you're saying is part of what concerns me: "
discussion (which it has been more of the past 24 hours) versus
large bodies of lecturing/teaching, much being blatantly contrary to Gary's teaching and expectations."
I hope Stephen is diverted from coming across this camp-site, despising the people here along with what they're supposed to think like without ever getting to know them or what they actually believe, and deciding to make it his own publishing venue, heedlessly littering the grounds with the same handbills that we used to hand out...other people come here and we care what they find. This is "a forum: a public place or medium for discussion." When someone makes it their own blogspace they're violating the fellowship around the Lord, His words, and our lives that this place for discussion represents. I've never met Gary or knowingly interacted with him. I admire him in many ways; but, I say that because it can be misrepresented, how we are inter-related. Most of us seem to have come through a very sanctifying experience, setting us apart from anyone else as God made us to know things, how wrong and apostate much called church is and specially that Jesus really is the Savior of All! Few of us here could be conned into following even a very good man. We've been too much dealt with personally by the
kurios, the ultimate authority! The utter nonsense and weirdness of those that think people at tentmaker forum are a cult reveals how out of touch with reality some who put themselves up as judges of their neighbor are.
As far as you're saying "it can come across as someone being a "know-it-all" or setting themselves up as an "expert" above others" I think we recognize we can actually know some truth that others don't and they don't recognize either their error or our truth. Trying to enlighten them can have the effect of driving them farther away into deeper darkness.
John 3:19-21 (CLV)...
19 Now this is the judging: that the light has come into the world, and men love the darkness rather than the light, for their acts were wicked.
20 For everyone who is committing bad things is hating the light and is not coming to the light, lest his acts may be exposed.
21 Now he who is doing the truth is coming to the light that his acts may be made manifest, for they have been wrought in God.
The answer to my frustration, which Stephen only represents as a type, a thing that the passage of time proves is my condition too, is that the veil between the holy and the holiest was inwrought with cherebim throughout. We are told in Hebrews that rent veil is His flesh. His flesh both reveals and hides. We are His body, His flesh and bones (cp., Ep 5:30) There is something in the flesh nature, many faced, representing the
bios, the animal natures with burning sWORD working in every direction to keep the flesh man out, preventing its obtaining access to the tree of
zoe life. It is all by grace alone...
We are now given the wisdom to eat of the other tree.
"We are now given the wisdom to eat of the other tree"
Which one do you eat?
What I find a little disheartening with these conversations is the claim is that things are just being shared out as the person sees them, but yet things get condemning when others share the fact that they see things differently. It's greatly why I backed away for a while. If we truly have the nature of Christ in us like we "think" we have, then why is there so much contention between one another?
Stephen, we hold nothing against you personally, but you seem to be a bit prickly in your delivery and responses . . . were you really expecting to join the forum thinking that we're all going to convert? I personally already have converted "from" the position you're in "to" the position I'm in and in my current place, Scripture has come alive in ways I've never imagined. It's not through much study and learning . . . all though I've been down that road as well . .but it's through a personal experience. You can quote all the Scriptures you want . . .it's as Willie mentioned before, you're not bringing anything new to the table. Same goes for your demeanor, your responses are not new either.
It's great that you put your views out there for everyone else to consider, it's just that this board is not really representive of your views. You don't seem to be open at all to the rest of us as much as you feel we should be open to you. There's no condemnation here, just my observance is all. I don't want to war with you over these matters.
There are different dimensions of understanding here . . .much of your views are embracing a spiritual truth being applied to a natural event . . .when we're really to be walking in the spirit in all things . . .see everything spiritually . .or in other words, take everything inwardly. The earth dwellers you commented on earlier . . .I don't want to be an earth dweller because that's not my original state where I was created. I am a spirit . . .and it's there where I choose to see these passages you keep throwing out there as your proof. We're not to walk in proof, we're to walk in faith . . .faith and proof are at opposite ends of the spectrum and so are our perspectives.
You've said more than once we'll just and to agree to disagree and move on . . .which sounds fine on paper but truth be told, the reason why we disagree is because we are reading the Scriptures on different plains . . .so no matter what the topic, we're always going to be at odds . . .which again, brings me back to my original question . . .which is more important? Doctrine? Or relationship?
Impossible to have one without the other martin
willieH: Hey "Phen"... :happy3:
Your best buddy is back! :friendstu:
Quote from: Stephen on May 28, 2009, 02:21:14 AM
Eternity begins in Chapter 21 .... but all will be held accountable first regarding their position with the Lord .... the wheat [believers] will be gathered into the barn [of eternal life] and the tares [unbelievers] will be burned in His lake of fire and lost forever
So...
CHRIST, according to you, FAILED in the mission that
YHVH (who holds the FOREKNOWLEDGE of that entire mission) gave Him to accomplish:
John 3:16 ---
God SO LOVED, the WORLD, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in Him should not perish but have everlasting life...and... reiterated by
CHRIST while HE was here:
Luke 19:10 ---
For the Son of man came to SEEK and to SAVE, that which was LOST.(1) WHEAT can only become WHEAT by the work of GOD in that one... Otherwise,
(2) The WHEAT is making ITSELF -- WHEAT... and GOD is exempt from the process...
(apparently you pick option #2 here)
GOD is IMPARTIAL to men... (there are at least 10 references which state this), so if indeed GOD makes the WHEAT -- WHEAT... (which He does), then He is obligated by that (Scripturally repeated) IMPARTIALITY to make ALL -- WHEAT!
Also, in your vision of the process, ...you name FUTILITY and FOOLISHNESS in
YHVH God... for sending His SON on a mission which HE KNEW beforehand, could and
WOULD NOT be accomplished. :rolleye:
As well as compromising the WILL of
YHVH --
2 Peter 3:9, in that He SENT His SON, ...NOT to condemn --
John 3:17, yet you have BOTH enacting CONDEMNATION... by destroying LIVES which
YHVH created...
NEGATIVITY is the paramount indicator in your "teaching" message Phen... and is sorrowfully DEVOID of any semblance of the
GOSPEL (which IS the COMMANDED mission of men called by Him)
Matt 28:19-20 -- Mark 16:15... For the
GOSPEL as I have already pointed out, is STRICTLY and COMPLETELY ...
GOOD NEWS... [Euaggelion #G2098 -- Euaggelizo #G2097]
Thus far, you have presented
nothing that can be remotely construed as
GOOD NEWS... and worse, you are so hardened in the self-exaltation of your "teachings" and "knowledge", ...that you are not even slightly concerned with the dire elements of this
BAD NEWS message you bring...
You deliver with the COLD and calculated intent to instill FEAR... instead of showing your belief in a COMPASSIONATE and WARM presentation... that might SAVE men, from that which you (mistakenly) believe is a FIRE that DESTROYS... :sigh:
Pitiful... :pitiful:
...willieH :cloud9:
"that whosoever BELIEVETH in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"
>Those who reject Him will perish for sure .... one needs to make sure that they are not on this list
Hebrews
10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Jude
1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
Quote from: Stephen on May 29, 2009, 02:34:08 AM
"that whosoever BELIEVETH in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"
>Those who reject Him will perish for sure .... one needs to make sure that they are not on this list
Hebrews
10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Jude
1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
And who gives the belief? We can do nothing of ourselves.
Interesting that before you edited, you said it was a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God, not the living God as you later corrected. Shows the true colors of what you really believe about Father.
"And who gives the belief? We can do nothing of ourselves."
>It is also a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God
>Diligently seek the Lord and His truth .... and He will save you
>If you chose otherwise, He will reject you .... you will be accountable to Him for your choice
>This choice you must make
Romans
1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools
Revelation
16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Quote from: Stephen on May 29, 2009, 02:52:36 AM
>It is also a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God
>Diligently seek the Lord and His truth .... and He will save you
>If you chose otherwise, He will reject you .... you will be accountable to Him for your choice
>This choice you must make
Oh yeah, that's right, we can save ourselves... :pointlaugh: :pitiful:
What you've written here is an assertion that you cannot prove by scripture.
The first sentence is not even scripture, it's Jonathan Edwards.
Here's truth for you:
No one can come to the Father unless the Son draws (drags) him, and no one can come to the Son unless the Father draws (drags) him.
This leaves us with what choice?
You are a self-righteous and arrogant Pharisee, and if I get banned for saying it, so be it.
John
16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me
Before a person can intelligently believe in Christ, he has to be aware of the guilt of his sin. He also must face the fact that God is righteous and that He judges sin. This is further defined in verse 9, "in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me." An unsaved person needs to realize that while he is a sinner, as all men are sinners, this constitutes only a part of his condemnation before God. The one sin that prevents him from entering into grace and favor with God is the sin of unbelief.
willieH: Hi Phen... :happy3:
Quote from: Doc"And who gives the belief? We can do nothing of ourselves."
Amen Doc... here "phen" is found
ADDING to Scripture, in his last-ditch effort to keep his head above the water, defiling the instruction given that we NOT ADD to the
WORD of our Father:
Quote from: Stephen on May 29, 2009, 02:52:36 AMIt is also a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God
Heb 10:31 -- ...a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the
LIVING GOD...
Because "Phen" preaches FEAR, he SUBTRACTED the word "
LIVING", and ADDED the word "
ANGRY", in order to facilitate his doctrine of FEAR... which is BAD NEWS...
GOD is not ANGRY with us... HE
LOVES the
WORLD... He gave His SON for the WORLD because of that INFINITE and NEVER ENDING
LOVE...
We are ALL in the hand of the POTTER --
Jer 18:4 -- Rom 9:20 and we are
FEARFULLY made!
Psalm 139:14-15 -- I will praise thee for I am
FEARFULLY and
WONDERFULLY made: MARVELOUS are thy works, and that my sould knoweth right well... my SUBSTANCE was not hid from thee... I was made IN SECRET, and curiously WROUGHT in the LOWEST parts of THE EARTH
Quote from: Stephen on May 29, 2009, 02:52:36 AMDiligently seek the Lord and His truth .... and He will save you
More CONTRARY advice... I will tell you again "phen", you shall continue to be EXPOSED -- BY the SCRIPTURES -- the longer you are here...
You preach of "working your way" into His GRACE... "diligently SEEK the Lord [and because of this you deduce]: He will save you"
He will SAVE YOU whether you SEEK Him or not... for the SHEPHERD is the one SEEKING the SHEEP... and MEN cannot "seek" of themselves... GOD does the DRAWING [greek=DRAGGING] --
John 6:44 -- John 12:32Luke 19:10 -- the SHEPHERD does the "seeking"
Rom 3:10-11 -- Psalms 14:1-3 -- As it is WRITTEN: There is
NONE "righteous" no,
NOT ONE [not even "phen"]... There is NONE that
UNDERSTANDETH [again, not even "phen"] there is
NONE that
SEEKETH after GOD [and again, not even "phen"]
Quote from: Stephen on May 29, 2009, 02:52:36 AMIf you chose otherwise, He will reject you .... you will be accountable to Him for your choice
Where is this stated other than in YOUR WORDS "phen"? We ALL shall give ACCOUNT, but GOD shall not
REJECT anyone... He is our SAVIOR... and LOVES us ALL... [yes, even "phen"]
2 Cor 5:19-20 -- What part of
NOT IMPUTING do you not understand, oh "understanding one"? -- What part of
RECONCILING the WORLD do you not understand, oh "understanding one"?
Quote from: Stephen on May 29, 2009, 02:52:36 AMThis choice you must make
Sorry, but no one can make a "choice" which he/she is
UNABLE to make:
John 6:44 & 65 -- What part of "no MAN ...
CAN..." what part of "
NO MAN -- CAN" do you not understand, oh "understanding one"?
Your quote of Romans below, only serves the agenda of the
TRUTH, not YOUR agenda of FEAR...
No one is able to
BELIEVE, until
CHRIST AUTHORS that faith --
Heb 12:2Might I address these verses a bit... Will you then
BELIEVE -- "phen"?
RomansQuote from: Stephen on May 29, 2009, 02:52:36 AM1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Phil 2:10-11 EVERY KNEE shall bow and
EVERY tongue CONFESS... What part of EVERY do you not understand, oh "understanding one"?
Quote from: Stephen on May 29, 2009, 02:52:36 AM1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
The JUST are "JUST", because GOD has MADE them such -- How did YOU become "just" -- "phen"? Of yourself? Did YOU put YOU in
CHRIST?
Acts 2:47 --- GOD adds [the "just"] to the church, they don't "add" themselves...
Quote from: Stephen on May 29, 2009, 02:52:36 AM1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 5:6 Ungodliness? ALL are UNGODLY, for that is who
CHRIST died for "phen"... and His wrath IS come against us for THIS is the Lake of FIRE... not as you literally observe...
Quote from: Stephen on May 29, 2009, 02:52:36 AM1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Those to whom GOD has lifted the veil, are those to whom God has SHOWN Himself unto... ISRAEL is blind in part (mostly) --
Rom 11:25 -- that the Gentiles can fully come in... and that the LAST (Gentiles) be FIRST and the FIRST be LAST (Jews) to know the SAVIOR --
Rom 11:26 -- ALL ISRAEL shall be SAVED... even though MOST of ISRAEL has gone to the grave in UNBELIEF... that UNBELIEF is concluded by GOD upon ALL --
Rom 11:32 -- and only THOSE to whom He REVEALS Himself, shall that veil be lifted.
Quote from: Stephen on May 29, 2009, 02:52:36 AM1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
No man has an excuse... for an excuse would excuse bad behavior... would excuse EVIL, SIN... But the POTTER mars the clay amidst His hand --
Jer 18:4 -- and shapes the clay according to HIS pleasure and purpose, and the CLAY has no SAY-SO in the matter, especially an EXCUSE or an OBJECTION to its journey --
Rom 9:20-21Quote from: Stephen on May 29, 2009, 02:52:36 AM1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
This is speaking of the RELIGIOUS, such as yourself, "phen" which are myriad... and which are called DECEIVERS --
Matt 24:5 -- and MANY is their number, not few... such as you find at TENTMAKER... MANY is the number they DECIEVE...
Quote from: Stephen on May 29, 2009, 02:52:36 AM1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools
Just told you who they are, and what they do...
I will address your Revelation quotes in the next post... and though you shall foolishly object to those comments... you will continue to be EXPOSED while you are here...
And it shall be VIA the Scriptures that your nakedness is revealed... :Book:
...willieH :cloud9:
WH,
Your intransigence is showing in your behavior and speech
A very poor representative of your preterism
One who lacks confidence in what they present and believe always has to belittle and convey disrespect toward those who think differently .... and then one becomes defensive .... and then offensive
The believer who is confident and unshaken in their faith in the Lord never has to do this
Seek the Lord and His truth and He will save you .... it is you that must choose to ask for His forgiveness, repent of your sin, and then to accept His offer of your salvation by His grace through faith in His ability and willingness to save you
There is no other way
willieH: Hi "phen" :winkgrin:
You propose to know prophecy, and are ignorant of even the simplest of SPIRITUAL matters... Failing to even KNOW the
GOSPEL and what it IS, let alone take its
GOOD NEWS to the WORLD...
Instead you opt for the NATURAL observations of Scripture which any ATHIEST concludes... proclaiming yourself
LEARNED, ...and have become so steeped and absorbed in your folly that you cannot
see what is right before your eyes...
Why did you LEAVE OUT your CARNAL vision of the HOLY SYMBOLISM in the Book of the REVEALING of the
CHRIST? You post VAST amounts of Scripture and expect that you notation of verses, somehow impresses others?
Why did you not comment on these verses, oh "learned one"? Well... Maybe I'll give you an old musician's take so at least the readers shall have some vision of what these verses potentially mean, even though YOU abstained from expressing that meaning... Cat gotchertongue? :dontknow:
First, CHRONOLOGY is not appicable to this book for CHRONOLOGY is the method of FINITE observation... and this book is DEDICATED to the REVEALING of the ETERNAL WORD of GOD,
JESUS CHRIST...
To
BEGIN with The REVELATION of
JESUS CHRIST, has nothing to do with predicting the
END...
The book plainly identifies itself in its introductory verse... saying that it is
SIGNIFIED (communication via SIGNS), and it discloses that the
subject of the book is BOTH, simulataneously THE BEGINNING ...and... THE END... even though the
subject of the book has NO BEGINNING or END...
This is where most readers of this writing, go in the ditch... for they will take its words and equate it to the NATURAL... and define it by TIME and both Beginnings and Endings... NEITHER are appicable to
CHRIST... He, however
IS the Beginning and Ending of ALL THINGS which HAVE these boundaries...
ALL things BEGIN in Him -- ALL things END in Him...
I will be first to admit that this book is deep and that I have not complete observation of its contents... but let's take a look at the verses you proposed but abstained from giving insight (maybe because you have none - eh?)
Since I have done some recent study on this portion, I will comment on it, and await your vision of Revelation 16 (that is if you are able to do other than just TYPE verses):
RevelationQuote from: Stephen on May 29, 2009, 02:52:36 AM
20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Ahh... the GWT... how big is it "phen"? Where is it? Do you know? Where does a King's THRONE sit? here's a few hints:
1 Cor 6:19 -- It sits in HIS TEMPLE...
Acts 7:48 -- God does not dwell in TEMPLES made by hands. Heaven is His Throne... and so "where" is Heaven, Phen?
1 Cor 3:16 -- Hmmm it is "where" He dwells is it not? How can He sit on a "throne" and dwell elsewhere? :Chinscratch:
Quote from: Stephen on May 29, 2009, 02:52:36 AM20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Doya know what the "books" are "phen" or how they are "opened"?
We are the books Phen... Our LIVES lived before the watching EYE of
YHVH God --
Psalms 139:8 -- in whom we LIVE and MOVE and have our BEING --
Acts 17:28What were "written in the books"? Our lives are FOREKNOWN... they do not have to transpire in TIME in order to be available to
YHVH! ALL your days were "written" before you took your first breath... and you cannot do or say ANYTHING that is not already WRITTEN of you in the "book" of your life...
ALL you do is foreordained... including this interaction between us... If you could recognize even an iota of what I am telling you, it will CHANGE your life... but that CHANGE is already written to, if indeed it were to take place... :laughing7:
GOD JUDGES the things which are written in your BOOK... be they good or evil... and they are ALL made subject to
FIRE (as they are lived) --
1 Cor 3:11-15Quote from: Stephen on May 29, 2009, 02:52:36 AM20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
DEATH and HELL coughed up those within them eh? Is that what you see "Phen"? That some get a "coffee break" from HELL for a few seconds to get JUDGED? Then get thrown back into the FIRE? Tell me you know more than this, bro...
Just so happens, that DEATH and HADES which is the GRAVE (translated "hell" in many english translations)... release ALL that are within their "gates"...
These 2 are the partnership of the state of DEATH... Death is in the HOUSE of the GRAVE, and ALL those in the house of the GRAVE are DEAD...
Quote from: Stephen on May 29, 2009, 02:52:36 AM20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Here is where it gets really interesting... Sentences can be restructured without changing meaning, but restructuring can and often does give greater insight... I am a novelist and songwriter as well as a musician, and as a "word" man, have become very aware of this method...
example: An ISLAND is a body of LAND surrounded by water...
restructured: A body of LAND surrounded by water is an ISLAND.
Keep in mind there is NO PUNCTUATION, verse or chapter designations in the original languages...
If one reads
Rev 20:14 and reverses the order of the facts... it reveals what is being said... This is the 2nd death: death and hell (the grave) were cast into the Lake of FIRE. This does not change the meaning of the verse, but it does reveal what is occuring within it... for when it is RE-REVERSED its meaning can be seen.
That the casting of DEATH and the GRAVE into the Lake of FIRE is the 2nd Death...
The GRAVE and DEATH are pivotal portions of THIS LIFE in this TIME realm... TIME works with EVIL which produces SIN which sends us to DEATH...
The next verse it the icing on the cake:
Quote from: Stephen on May 29, 2009, 02:52:36 AM20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
It is APPOINTED for men to DIE, then the JUDGMENT... Well what DEATH is DIED before the JUDGMENT? For there are TWO deaths... what is the FIRST DEATH "Phen"?
CHRIST noted LIVING, breathing men as DEAD:
Matt 8:22 -- Luke 9:60 -- Let the DEAD bury their DEAD... The Scripture notes that IN ADAM all DIE -- there is no avoiding this, it is GOD's decree, so we are destined to DIE before we are BORN... BLOTTED OUT of the BOOK of LIFE... and CAST into the LAKE of FIRE to
MEET that APPOINTMENT...
So each (which is ALL) unconverted soul is born DEAD in this life...
We are all CAST into this life... We do not "choose" this, it is GIVEN to be so by GOD!
We make NO CALLS and have NO CHOICE as to
(1) What era we are born
(2) what family we are born to
(3) what City, State, Country or neighborhood
(4) whether we are male or female
(5) what spiritual influences we will be subjected to
(6) what teachers, schools and friends, we will be influenced by
(7) what talents or lack thereof we will have
(8) what our race will be
(9) what we shall look like (pretty, ugly, or pretty ugly :laughing7:)
(10) how tall or short we shall be
(11) what our mental capabilities will be
(12) color of eyes, hair --
GOD makes these decisions. We are dealt the cards of life, and play them according to HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE of them...
ALL of these things contribute to our "choices" in life... we are completely affected by each and every thing on this list... and can and DO, affect our spiritual destiny.
This section of Revelation is speaking of ALL MEN being subject to
FIRE --
Mark 9:49 -- and SALTED (preserved by it) --
1 Cor 3:15 -- We LIVE and MOVE and have our BEING within GOD --
Acts 17:28 -- subject to the
FIRE that HE IS... Consuming that which is WRITTEN in the books -- and preserving the
CHRIST that is thereby revealed in each of us... in some much, in other little, but in ALL is found the SAVING presence of the Savior...
No "armaggedon" -- No "war" in the LITERAL terms, fought with guns & missiles... :mnah: That is the MOVIES... that is SCIENCE FICTION... the REAL war is that which YOU and I, face each day...
A SPIRITUAL and SYMBOLIC war which is recalled by Paul --
Rom 7:23 -- and the place of
FIRE in which the GOLD of
CHRIST was TRIED --
Rev 3:18FIRE comes in many forms other than physical fire... there is fire in passion, pain, mental agony, loss, anger... yet those observing it in the
WORD, confine it to PHYSICAL TORMENTING FIRE... failing to recognize that which is SPIRITUAL within their carnality and confinement to the flesh... and they "see" accordingly
...willieH :cloud9:
willieH: Hi Phen... :icon_king:
You are UNREPENTENT for falisfying the
WORD of God -- proposing Him ANGRY where it is not stated... you WILL give account... doesn't matter to me. It is in God's hands...That is your affair with Him, you WILL face Him...
You are quite wrong about me... If anything I am very confident in my beliefs... and like yourself, have been immersed in the WORD for 33+ years...
The biggest difference between us is the message we are compelled to bring... I bring His LOVE and call you a SON of GOD... You on the other hand wish me to worry about and FEAR the one who LOVES ME MOST... Please!
The words that God has given me to EXPOSE you and your LIES... has gotten under your skin, your conscience seared with the hot iron of His
WORD... yet you are far to prideful to give in at this point.
You preach FEAR
not the
GOSPEL... and as promised, you shall know me to be a continual thorn in your side as long as you continue to post your carnal
LIES on Tentmaker...
peace... :Peace:
...willieH :cloud9:
Matthew 7:20 (New King James Version)
Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Good posts Willi.
" For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth." Romans 8;29,30,33
Quote from: martincisneros on May 28, 2009, 05:34:10 AM
Yeah, it's just easier to stay humble. You're more believable that way, if by chance you ever did have a change in perspective. 'Cause then you'll want to run out and tell everyone of your altered views and your absolute rejoicing in the Lord for the bigger picture, only to find faces looking at you as though "but you were just as sure about what you were saying before, how do you know you're even remotely right now??" A lack of humility always needlessly hardens the hearts of others who hear someone lacking in that humility. And then when you've really got a rushing mighty wind and tongues of fire upon your head, then it takes so much longer and harder to get through -- as St. Paul learned the painfully, tearful hard way with trying to deal with Israel after his altered views of the Cross and Resurrection. But if people know you doubt your own infallibility but are simply walking in the light you have at the time, then they'll ALWAYS listen, and your current hearers will often follow you through the transition, even if it winds up being "eventually." 'Cause they'll know, if you were grounded in humility that could only come from Christ and baring His yoke, that you weren't looking for something so far out when He did open your eyes.
Good thoughts, good reasons to stay humble.
willieH: >hi Phen<
As I said... the
WORD shall reveal your
LIES... which are present in EVERY post you have made (that I have read - not that I am at all inclined, to read them all!)
I am going to Scripturally address a few of your points below to display the FALLACY within them:
Quote from: Stephen on May 29, 2009, 05:43:52 AM
WH,
Your intransigence is showing in your behavior and speech
:laugh: ..."intransigence"? :pointlaugh: Your INABILITY to communicate is SHOWING, "phen"... :laughing7:
Quote from: Stephen on May 29, 2009, 05:43:52 AMA very poor representative of your preterism
I have not stated that I am a "preterist"... it is YOU which have need of such labels... only further displaying that you know nothing of me...
Quote from: Stephen on May 29, 2009, 05:43:52 AMOne who lacks confidence in what they present and believe always has to belittle and convey disrespect toward those who think differently .... and then one becomes defensive .... and then offensive
Want a little "cheese" with that "WHINE", Phen? :JCThink:
Just as the Pharisees took offense at
CHRIST's words, ...As the bearer of
DARKNESS, you take
offense to the LIGHT when it shines your way... :sigh:
Calling the EXPOSURE of your
LIES as "
disrespect"... I have no RESPECT for
LIES... and freely admit it... :dontknow:
Quote from: Stephen on May 29, 2009, 05:43:52 AMThe believer who is confident and unshaken in their faith in the Lord never has to do this
Again... there is nothing that YOU, in your empty presentations that has even remotely given the slightest "shudder" or "reconsideration" to that which I believe... :Sparkletooth:
There is absolutely NO FRUIT in your posts... only the vague, overcomplicated and FEARFULLY presented distraction of the "end" coupled with the absence of the
GOOD NEWS that you are COMMANDED as a representative of the Savior, to present...
Calling the
GOOD NEWS [UR], ..."another Gospel"... and presenting nothing but ELEMENTS of ...FEARING an END to an ANGRY GOD... which is contrary to the content and makeup of LOVE which claims nothing of the sort --
1 Cor 13 -- 1 John 4:18The
GOSPEL is
PEACE --
Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15 -- Col 1:20 -- and,
GOD is of
PEACE --
Rom 15:33 -- Heb 13:20 -- Phil 4:9 -- 1 Thess 5:23Quote from: Stephen on May 29, 2009, 05:43:52 AMSeek the Lord and His truth and He will save you .... it is you that must choose to ask for His forgiveness, repent of your sin
You know not the Father, or you would
KNOW that "REPENTENCE" comes forth from His leading, not some "illumination" emergent from yourself --
Rom 2:4Furthermore, in all your "learning" you have failed to LEARN, ...HOW...
FORGIVENESS actually, ...works! :mshock:
It is via YOUR FORGIVENESS of OTHERS that FORGIVENESS is obtained BY YOU --
Matt 6:14-15 --1 John 4:20 -- Thinking your "religiousness" is that which obtains the favor of FORGIVENESS from God... WHINING at Him, begging Him for it... Instead of
PRACTICING that which you
SEEK...
Quote from: Stephen on May 29, 2009, 05:43:52 AMand then to accept His offer of your salvation by His grace through faith in His ability and willingness to save you
Where is it stated that I have to "
accept" His "
offer"? He does not "offer" SALVATION! He is the AUTHOR
of it... It is EXCLUSIVELY accomplished BY HIM, completely ASIDE from the work or action of ANY MAN
Eph 2:8-9 -- do you
BOAST of your SALVATION to me "Phen"? Assuming that I have NOT found it? How brash and uninformatively speculative of you!
As if YOU did something to gain it? And if in fact, ...YOU did something to GAIN it... then YOU are your OWN SAVIOR, are you not? :dunno:
You type many Scriptures daily, without understanding of ANY of them... so sad! :pitiful:
Quote from: Stephen on May 29, 2009, 05:43:52 AMThere is no other way
The only
WAY to Salvation is via
CHRIST not via "phen" and his recommendations --
John 14:6No one here @ Tentmaker is "shaken" in their faith... You know nothing of the membership here, especially me (I can and WILL speak for myself)... Do you know anything of me other than that which I have revealed to you?
What is my favorite food?
Where was I born?
What musical performers are my favorites?
How tall am I?
What church was I brought up in?
How early do I rise usually?
What is my ancestry?
What day is my wedding anniversary?
Lets face it "phen"... your "knowledge" of me, is -- ah, ...NOTHING! ...however GOD knows the answers to ALL these and more... which is WHY He noted we should not JUDGE... and it should be left to Him alone!
You instruct me to "seek the Lord" when I have already revealed to you that I have been doing so for 33+ years? Are you somewhat slow? Do you have trouble actually READING and COMPREHENDING the English language? :laughing7:
This post is nothing more than additional nonsense and ILLOGICAL assumptions presented by the (un)"learned one", ...Unable to answer ANY challenge, ...UN--REPENTENT for ADDING to the
WORD of GOD, :sigh: ...Ineffective in observation, ...Literally carnal in vision, ...sleeping instead of waking, :snor:
...willieH :mpardon: