Beast not the AntiChrist

[saintwalee]

As the Beast is a a Satanic kingdom, as apposed to God's Kingdom, I contend that the Anti-Christ is not the Beast, but rather the false prophet.

John had this to say about the anti-christ:

1Jn_2:18  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn_2:22  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn_4:3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn_1:7  For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Joh_1:29  The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Now this Lamb would be a ewe lamb, or a female lamb, as that is the lamb that is sacrificed for the sins of the common people, and it is a lamb that is sacrificed
In Lev. iv. the laws descend finally to the individual. If one of the common people sinned unwittingly (verses 27-32), he was to offer a female goat or a ewe lamb as a sin-offering. The offenses whichdemanded a sin-offering are detailed in Lev. v. 1-6. They are for the most part of a non-moral nature, such as contact with a dead body, with an unclean reptile, or with an unclean discharge from a human being; but two of them have more of a moral character. These latter are (1) cases where a man permits injustice by withholding information (ib. verse 1), and (2) cases of rash though ignorant swearing to that which turns out to be false (ib.  verse 4). A noticeable feature of Lev. iv. and v. is that the expense of the sacrifice is graded according to the dignity or wealth of the offender. Thus in ch. iv. the offering may be a bullock, a he-goat, a she-goat, or a ewe lamb, while in ch. v. it may be a she-goat, a ewe lamb, a turtle-dove, a young pigeon, or the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour (comp. ib. verses 6, 7, 11). Reference: jewishencyclopedia.com

The lamb of Revelation is a male lamb, in apposition of course, to the true lamb, Jesus.
Rev 13:11  And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev_16:13  And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

I can think of one religion (hmm,hmm ... Islam) that acknowledges Jesus as a Great Prophet, but denies He is the Son of God, and who themselves have a Prophet, Muhammad. Of course Islam speaks blasphemies by denying Jesus as the Christ.

And this is also of the False Prophet:
Rev 13:12  And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13  And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14  And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Any thoughts on these. Especially the part where the False Prophet commands everyone to make an image of the beast. From what little I know of Islam, is that they are very stringent on not worshipping idols, even drawing pictures of Muhammad is forbidden.

[marie glen]

hi! :hiya:

I agree the beast (Rev 13:1-10) is not the anti-christ/individual and I'm always a bit surprised when it's not seen there are the two beasts in Rev chapter 13.. Imo, the verse 1-10 beast is a world governing beast/body.. many heads and horns/powers.. Especially the ten (horns, toes, kings, divisions) which rule 'one hour' with the beast, the final hour..

But I think the anti-Christ is 13:11-18, an office which carried out 13:13 (in 1945) same office, imo, will furnish the head of beast 1, finally giving breath/authority to it.. (this head, or beast having expired when it's founder / same office, did not sign on, after all..)

I think of the false prophet (teacher, teaching, which does include a prophecy of mankind once again looking to the stars) as one who "went before" (KJ) and prepared the way, both for world governing and for the harlot (greek-"pornos") or that is to say for western civilization/capitalism going "pornos", which (capitalism) will be devoured (finally) by the ten kings (socialism)..

[[ the false prophet and the world governing beast/body are the two thrown "alive"/active into the LOF at Christ's return. I do not believe these two are individuals but institutions of man active at the time of His return.. thrown into the LOF and to be no more..

Many years ago when I asked the Lord to reveal to me Bible prophecy as concerning our modern day, and the Book of Revelation, the (first) thing which immediately 'came back to me' was a question - "what are the strongest forces at work upon mankind today?" (Emphasis on "today".) And into my mind like a light turning on - man's theory of evolution (as to origins).. the false prophet, pornos, and the trend toward a world governance and peace, plenty and utopia attempted w/o God (who iS life).

The religion/belief in evolution as to origins declares mankind to be the higher power, i.e. "declaring himself to be God.." Also they believe Jesus lived but was only a man, not the Son come in the flesh..

The dream of world peace, I think of as the "dove" - and Islam as the "vulture" (Mt 24, black clad) and carries out the beheadings of Rev 20:4 - imo, the dove will compatriot (and, or harness, make use of) the vulture in order to "remove that which prevents".
                      :Peace2: :smile:

[Seth]

"what are the strongest forces at work upon mankind today?"

I would say its sin in the flesh, personally. I have come to believe that the false prophet and beast are indicative of the forces that work within us all.

[micah7:9]

Ecc 3:18  I said in my heart concerning the matter of the sons of man that God might cleanse them, so as to see that they themselves are beasts.

[Seth]

 :thumbsup:

[saintwalee]

I am in agreement with marie glen about the false prophet being a religious system as well, and that the blasphemy of that system is the theory of evolution, as I had posted in Kingdom of the Beast. This definitely could be the case for the secular society, but could also coincide with Islam. As the Beast is a secular governmental system, the non-religious would have their "faith" in evolution, and at the same time, Islam would continue to worship the false prophet Muhammad. Maybe that is indicative of the two horns of the lamb.

IMO, the final Beast government would come out of Europe as something of a revived Roman empire, but this government will make a covenant with ten kings, who I propose will be a confederation of ten Islam nations. I currently see Germany as the strongest member of the European community, and wouldn't that be something if they were to come back so to speak. It would make the world marvel that the Beast who had a death wound was revived!

Just my thoughts...

[Seth]

I think Revelation is a great test. Who do we point at other than ourselves?

[watchman1706]

Good point Seth. There is no anti-christ personified. This myth is a left over of the catholic jesuit conspiracy of futurism to take the attention away from from the catholic church of the day being labelled as the anti-christ itself. Especially with the protestant eruption throughout europe. It is complete bunk and the beast is just our own carnal natures. Nothing more. Read this.

http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article15_rapture_pt1.html

:banana: :banana: :banana:

[saintwalee]

I agree that the revelation from one aspect reveals our own personal salvation, of the second Adam over the first Adam, through the power of Jesus Christ.

But if we contend that it is about our own salvation, would we be saying that we are Jesus Christ as well and by our own will, overcome sin and death?

Seth's Quote; "I think Revelation is a great test. Who do we point at other than ourselves?"

Maybe I'm missing your point friend.

But I believe there is a literal aspect as well, that will be played out in the theater of Earth.

[eaglesway]

Let those who have ears to hear hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches.

I am He that tries the reins and the hearts.

Behold, I am coming quickly.

Behold I am making all things new.

The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come". Let everyone who thirsts come, drink freely of the water of life.

In the introduction to the vision Jesus is walking among the Lampstands, and measuring them. I see ther a strong correlation to 1 corinthians 3:10-17

10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If any man destroys(phtheirei-wither, ruin) the temple of God, God will destroy(phtheirei) him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

Talk about a test :o)

[Seth]

Seth's Quote; "I think Revelation is a great test. Who do we point at other than ourselves?"

Maybe I'm missing your point friend.

But I believe there is a literal aspect as well, that will be played out in the theater of Earth.

My own view on Revelation is that I doubt there is a literal aspect. For example, if I take Revelation 19, where the one who sits on the white horse strikes down all the earth with the sword in his mouth. Jesus already said that if anyone does not believe in him, he will not judge them, but his words will judge them.

I don't believe that Jesus will literally use a sword to kill people. I believe it's symbolic. In fact, if we are talking about a LITERAL beast, then we can't appeal to symbolism at all, because then, it's not literal anymore.

So the question becomes, what is it symbolic of? One common thread I always see is that nobody thinks it's themselves. It's always the Romans, or the Catholics, or the Protestants, or the Jews, or America, or Russia, and on and on. But one common thread among all the theories is this: it's always someone else.

I can't claim to have the answer, but one thing I do know is that God loves a good surprise. And what if we found out that the beast is within us?

A really good read on this subject can be found here:

- Who is the Beast? by L. Ray Smith
- The Beast Within by L. Ray Smith

[saintwalee]

 :iagree:

In my post, the Kingdom of the Beast, that is what I presented, and some of the replies even quoted some pictures that man is a beast.

Even though I don't think many take Revelation literally, that there is an actual two edged sword coming out of Jesus' mouth, I do think that there will be a physical manifestation of the events on earth and that not the whole of revelation is the battle taking place within each individual.

I also agree with what you say about many always talk about the Beast and anti-Christ as someone else. I think that comes from all the hoopla about the whole rapture thing.

Thanks for the links, I will definitely check those out as well!

[Seth]

Yeah, it's a very mysterious book, and so I may be wrong, and maybe there is a guy somewhere or a government system that the beast represents, so I don't mean to say that other interpretations are wrong. I find them all interesting. But, yeah take a look at those articles, you might find some interesting stuff there.

[sheila]

man,though he be in honour[in the image of God],without understanding is like the beast.

   my people perish through lack of knowledge[of the one true God]

     when I was 17,and anointed of Christ one night/shortly after I first heard of the salvation of all men....

    but rejected it [not hitler etc] a few weeks after that I was given a vision in the night.....a voice told me..

   'get out of bed and go to the bathroom' and I did..then the voice said go to the mirror..I did...then the voice

  said 'look into the mirror" and I did....then the voice siad 'look closer" and I did...I saw in the pupil

of my eye...a young wman running in a feild..as she ran she turned and looked behind her..as if something

was in pursuit of her....I said..'what is he running from?' and a great beast filled the mirror and growled.....


  startled and shook me up bad.......only years later did I realize that He had anointed and tried to teach me

but I was way too carnal and as a beast that could not be taught of Him,at that time.  ) years later,after

walking a really rough road...I found out about the salvation of all men..and was elated over it...so thankful

of it.  no flippant rejection of it,then..



   

[eaglesway]

I was once given a vivid dream in which a great male baboon was chasing me up a dry river bed.

After waking, and meditating upon it, I realized that the Lord was showing me that I had not been walking in the spirit. The river that makes glad the city of God had dried up in me, and I was being spiritually dominated by my flesh, the beast in me, the carnal mind.

[rosered]

Great thread guys all have given   some great insight  and scriptures !

I noticed in Rev 12  Satan  the deceiver,  that old red dragon    was given an adjective  of describing  ''  accusing the brethren  day night  before God'' and being thrown down /cast down

  now the head and tail  in the old describes in Isaiah  9    ...14So the LORD cuts off head and tail from Israel, Both palm branch and bulrush in a single day.DAY /JESUS  /CROSS ]

15The head is the elder and honorable man, And the prophet who teaches falsehood is the tail. 16For those who guide this people are leading them astray; And those who are guided by them are brought to confusion....    Babylon   means confusion by mixing

I am seeing that the honor of men  and wisdom of men  and doctrines of men as  [ beasts /carnal minds ] in the earth our mortal bodies    and sea being the many nations  tongues and languages   where the woman sits   [ woman being the Queen of heaven described in Jeremiah  ,Jer 7:18   The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger    noted the  children gather  the  wood , for the wood , hay and stubble for the kindling  fires the fathers  start by opening their mouths
  the firey little member the tongue   that no man can tame    that sets the course of hell [graves ]  condemnation

     The new covenant      being set   from the moment of the CROSS  OF JESUS CHRIST   ,  thus being the need for the new heavens and earth       that Jesus Christ Himself rules and reigns   , This is the NEW JERUSALEM    Jerusalem = "set ye double peace" [  double Visions of and teaching of  peace  ]That comes down from heaven ...To Gods  glory and honor  and praise !


Rev 12

9And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him


.Rev 8:12   And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
lRev 12:4   And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

I can see that Satans tail is  LIES   drawing the stars of heaven [  Abraham 's blessing    His children  being as plentiful and the stars of heaven and sands of the sea shore ,,,    the stars had LIGHT in them [light of Christ  , but become deceived  by the lies of  satans  tail / false   lies accusing

10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death....


This to me represents the  baptism  of Christ  death that many also must undergo
   as the death of HIS saints , holy ones  chosen for this death and new LIFE here and now
Psalms  116


   1I love the Lord, for he heard my voice;
he heard my cry for mercy.
2Because he turned his ear to me,
I will call on him as long as I live.
3The cords of death entangled me,
the anguish of the grave came over me;
I was overcome by distress and sorrow.
4Then I called on the name of the Lord:
"Lord, save me!"
5The Lord is gracious and righteous;
our God is full of compassion.
6The Lord protects the unwary;
when I was brought low, he saved me.
7Return to your rest, my soul,
for the Lord has been good to you.
8For you, Lord, have delivered me from death,
my eyes from tears,
my feet from stumbling,
9that I may walk before the Lord
in the land of the living.
10I trusted in the Lord when I said,
"I am greatly afflicted";
11in my alarm I said,
"Everyone is a liar."
12What shall I return to the Lord
for all his goodness to me?
13I will lift up the cup of salvation
and call on the name of the Lord.
14I will fulfill my vows to the Lord
in the presence of all his people.
15Precious in the sight of the Lord
is the death of his faithful servants.
16Truly I am your servant, Lord;
I serve you just as my mother did;
you have freed me from my chains.
17I will sacrifice a thank offering to you
and call on the name of the Lord.
18I will fulfill my vows to the Lord
in the presence of all his people,
19in the courts of the house of the Lord—
in your midst, Jerusalem.
Praise the Lord.


Now live for the Lord though Jesus Christ  ! all things are new and being made perfect /complete  by the LIGHT and knowledge of HIS WILL !

[sheila]

yep..EW..mine looked like a big ape too!  on another forum Kingdomtalk..there was a brother on there,Lee,

who also stated,when I shared my dream/vision...the same..a great ape chained to him....that tried to harm

everyone who came near him..of which he would try and beat back into submission.

    Loved your post,Rose.

[marie glen]

"what are the strongest forces at work upon mankind today?"

I would say its sin in the flesh, personally. I have come to believe that the false prophet and beast are indicative of the forces that work within us all.

Are you saying Bible prophecy is only within one's heart? and does not concern the world?

[marie glen]

I am in agreement with marie glen about the false prophet being a religious system as well, and that the blasphemy of that system is the theory of evolution, as I had posted in Kingdom of the Beast. This definitely could be the case for the secular society, but could also coincide with Islam. As the Beast is a secular governmental system, the non-religious would have their "faith" in evolution, and at the same time, Islam would continue to worship the false prophet Muhammad. Maybe that is indicative of the two horns of the lamb.

IMO, the final Beast government would come out of Europe as something of a revived Roman empire, but this government will make a covenant with ten kings, who I propose will be a confederation of ten Islam nations. I currently see Germany as the strongest member of the European community, and wouldn't that be something if they were to come back so to speak. It would make the world marvel that the Beast who had a death wound was revived!

Just my thoughts...

Very interesting! I've come to think of a 'revived' roman empire as an evolved roman empire, also Graeco/Roman,

..notice the bronze (claws) and iron (teeth/columns) of the ten horned beast of Dan 7:19,20 a cross reference of Rev 13:1.. And how Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the giant statue which God gave Daniel the interpretation of, almost all Bible prophecy scholars and buffs alike agree was a series of world empires -

..think gold, silver, bronze, like the olympic medals, then iron.. with bronze being Greek (Graeco) and Iron being Rome

How western civilization sprang from the iron and bronze (or brass as some interpret) with roman courts, senates, architecture, etc, and greek arts, drams, philosophy, etc..

Which I believe will also include Islam as confederate to carry out Rev 20:4d

Also the League of Nations, a world body/beast (beasts in Bible prophecy being governments and empires) expired when its original head did not sign on after all.. but mankind was convinced to rebuild when the fire of 13:13 occurred (13:14)

But also, I have to wonder how many Islamic persons, known and unknown, are in the nations.. I keep seeing the black burkas ("vultures") and who can say, in that day, if a man or woman is within?
So we are a bit in agreement but see it slightly different. :smile:

[marie glen]

I think Revelation is a great test. Who do we point at other than ourselves?

I agree with that.. but as also mankind and what we create and build.. on sand..

I believe the lesson we are (all) learning (good from evil/life from nonlife) is the same lesson and story in every life and also about mankind and all history as a whole..
      :smile:

[marie glen]

Good point Seth. There is no anti-christ personified. This myth is a left over of the catholic jesuit conspiracy of futurism to take the attention away from from the catholic church of the day being labelled as the anti-christ itself. Especially with the protestant eruption throughout europe. It is complete bunk and the beast is just our own carnal natures. Nothing more. Read this.

http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article15_rapture_pt1.html

:banana: :banana: :banana:

I have to wonder why things written out plainly in all the letters of the New Testament would be rewritten as metaphor in the Book of Revelation..

..and then the warning not to take away from the book is written at the end..

...and at the beginning promises a blessing to those who read, hear and heed?
             :Chinscratch:       

[marie glen]

Seth's Quote; "I think Revelation is a great test. Who do we point at other than ourselves?"

Maybe I'm missing your point friend.

But I believe there is a literal aspect as well, that will be played out in the theater of Earth.

My own view on Revelation is that I doubt there is a literal aspect. For example, if I take Revelation 19, where the one who sits on the white horse strikes down all the earth with the sword in his mouth. Jesus already said that if anyone does not believe in him, he will not judge them, but his words will judge them.

I don't believe that Jesus will literally use a sword to kill people. I believe it's symbolic. In fact, if we are talking about a LITERAL beast, then we can't appeal to symbolism at all, because then, it's not literal anymore.

So the question becomes, what is it symbolic of? One common thread I always see is that nobody thinks it's themselves. It's always the Romans, or the Catholics, or the Protestants, or the Jews, or America, or Russia, and on and on. But one common thread among all the theories is this: it's always someone else.

I can't claim to have the answer, but one thing I do know is that God loves a good surprise. And what if we found out that the beast is within us?

A really good read on this subject can be found here:

- Who is the Beast? by L. Ray Smith
- The Beast Within by L. Ray Smith

I believe symbols and metaphor are used in Bible prophecy, but strongly disbelieve that Bible prophecy itself is metaphor

...especially not as metaphor for what is clearly and plainly written in other books of the Bible..

Man's empires are built on sand.. Revelation, the unveiling (to me) seems most logical to be the culmination of history, the 'end' of the story so to speak.. The results and outcome which unveils and clearly shows to all, once and for all eternity, the truth that one cannot wander from God who is Life itself..

Surely to do so has concrete results in the heart, mind and psyche, but also in the world.. Was Israel's carrying away to Babylon metaphor only? Why now is Bible prophecy merely metaphor? (And for things already written!)
    :Chinscratch: (puzzlement :)

[marie glen]

Revelation 1:20 " the.. stars.. are angels.."
        :smile: :hiya:

[Seth]

"what are the strongest forces at work upon mankind today?"

I would say its sin in the flesh, personally. I have come to believe that the false prophet and beast are indicative of the forces that work within us all.

Are you saying Bible prophecy is only within one's heart? and does not concern the world?

I'm just saying what I believe is the strongest force at work in the world. It makes me think about Romans 7.

[Seth]

Surely to do so has concrete results in the heart, mind and psyche, but also in the world.. Was Israel's carrying away to Babylon metaphor only? Why now is Bible prophecy merely metaphor? (And for things already written!)
    :Chinscratch: (puzzlement :)

I actually don't believe that Revelation is written in the typical form as the OT prophecies. Whereas many of the images are from the OT they aren't written the same way. Revelation concerns various images that John saw. What they could mean is anyone's guess according to how they read the book. The prophets level certain specific predictions about Israel, whereas I don't see that kind of thing as much in Revelation. It could very well be that the OT prophecies have been fulfilled outwardly, and revelation is bringing them into the internal realm, spiritually.