First, I wanted to say to some people that have emailed me, that I'll get back to you ASAP. I'm just thinking through a response. It's one thing to know something in your "knower" and another thing to be able to share coherently.
Anyway, yesterday, for once, I was enjoying an afternoon at home. And I happened to glance through the open blinds from across the room and "off in the distance" I saw the New Jerusalem. It was genuinely such a genuine and vivid vision that for a split second I was wondering if I was about to die pretty soon 'cause it was just "over there." I didn't sorta see it. I saw it. It seemed like it was maybe half a mile away in all of it's monstrocity with the demensions given in the Book of Revelation. It was the furtherest thing from my thinking at the time. I was thinking through a website project that I was tinkering with. And I just happened to look outside and....uh....hello!!
Has anyone given any thought as to whether or not it's something that bleeds through to the natural realm from other demensions after the millenium, or if it's literally something that travels over here like an impossibly large space ship or whatever? Is it a spiritual reality that'll be built on this earth with the absolute abundance that grows throughout the millenium? I know that Hebrews says that it's a city whose Builder and Maker is God. But is it that a demensional veil is torn away and we see a city that had pretty much always been there since the resurrection, undisclosed to mortal eyes? Anything inherent in the Greek text or perhaps a relevant Old Testament passage to indicate whether it's like the tabernacle that Moses built, which although built by human hands was an exact replica of the one in heaven? Is it literally a flying city, or as I said, does it bleed through to the natural realm from higher realms so that it sorta suddenly or gradually appears like something from Star Trek with their transporters or whatever?
For a few weeks, I'd been entertaining thoughts of it being something metaphorical and perhaps not a genuinely literal city. And then yesterday happened and my curiosity got stirred about whether or not God's literally going to move something THAT BIG and navigate it carefully past Jupiter, Saturn, etc., or whether it's something that sorta bleeds through to the natural realm and perhaps "descending from heaven" was the best possible language for the 1st century Greek language.
:cloud9: My :2c:....New Jerusalem = city = multiple habitations. Know ye not ye are the temple of the living God? So it is here now, in the realm of Spirit, and since there is no time in the Spirit (as time is the measurement of death and there is no death in His Spirit which is life), then it always has been here, just not perceptible to the human eye unaided by the Spirit.
And, that was truly AWESOME He opened your spiritual eyes to see it! Blessings to you.......
Hi Cardinal,
That's precisely where my thinking had been going for a few weeks, and while that's probably still true, I saw actual gold, colorful gems, etc. I don't know why I hadn't previously put it together about all of the colors with the rainbow promise to the animals. All of the different gems being the expression of that rainbow are probably a fulfillment of Isaiah chapter 54 where He said that He was adding to the meaning of the rainbow that He'd never again have hostility towards mankind. Another way to take the last 3 chapters of Revelation is that He's ransacking the Old Testament of every beautiful truth, principle, and example that He can even remotely milk it of, and then He's burning up the rest that would condemn [or bring/impart condemnation] with unquenchable fire.
:cloud9: I have seen the gems as well. Once I saw 3 stairs, where there literally were 3 stairs leading up to where I had bible studies for 2 years. There was every kind of beautiful gem encased in the treads. The thought that came with this, was that the steps of the righteous are ordered of the Lord.
And the night I was used to lead an elderly Italian born woman to the Lord, I was given a dream/vision of the foundation that was laid in her. It was beautiful, dime size square blue sapphires, laid out in a pattern of sorts like a crossword puzzle. It was not completely filled in solid, and when asking in prayer about what this represented, it came to me that it was the course of her life, sort of her spiritual DNA in a sort of "map". Blessings to all.....
Are we "metaphorical-izing" ourselves right out of contemplating some other wondrous things that may occur?? "IT" points to.....(fill in the blank). Well, stop for a moment and contemplate "IT". (whatever "IT" is that you may be talking about.) Look around at creation.
(http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/NIM/AF422~Tree-Frog-Posters.jpg)
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1059/1345040249_2ece158242.jpg)
I see a God who is saying to us..."Look! Look at what I can do!" :grin: :Sparkletooth:
Creation SCREAMS at us and creation whispers at us... metaphors and parables seen in billions upon billions upon billions of different ways.
Psalm 19:1 -The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth His handywork.
So yes, I believe we are to search for the metaphorical truths...
However, I also know that He delights in our being dazzled and awed. and I so LOVE that about Him... :HeartThrob: The two go hand-in-hand it seems. At least, that has been my reality. When we look at His glorious creation, we should already be falling down at our knees in awe...don't you think? Sometimes I look around... at everything..the patterns, the wonder of it all..from biology to mathematics to chemistry to astronomy and botany and zoology, and I get a little flash of something in my mind. Like this veil will come off and His creation all around us... is going to just explode with so much insight. All around us... He is showing us things. He is showing us HIMSELF. and we trudge along like tiny little ants trying to "get it". Trying to piece things together, strugglig with our little breadcrumbs. Trying to UNDERSTAND and SEE.... and when that veil is lifted... like I said, it will all just EXPLODE into our BEING. It's like His creation is in shades of grey and we can only see so much. When the veil is lifted, creation all around us, will explode into trillions of different colors and we will SEE!
Just think about His creation so far. From the telescope to the microscope:
http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/index.html
Our minds cannot handle how glorious God is...
Now, isn't THAT something?
Our minds.
CANNOT HANDLE.
just how GLORIOUS God is...
We are like little ants..
we think we see so much, but even that "much" is sooooo little.
That thought alone makes me shudder with excitement so much I can barely contain myself. Yes, especially looking around and seeing His creation so far... Seeing just the tip of the iceberg. and that little TIP is already so completely overwhelming. We can't fathom it...
So... metaphorical? yes...of course. Of course.
But so much more. The beauty and wonder of it all is also something to behold.
Let's never lose sight of the fact that He didn't HAVE to make it so beautiful and wonderful..
but He did. :HeartThrob:
Let's cherish it and respect it and appreciate it.
peace,
sparrow
p.s. don't forget to visit the link! :icon_flower:
I was getting ready to read the book of Revelation this evening from Rotherham's translation (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=revelation+1§ion=0&translation=reb&oq=Luke%252024&new=1&nb=lu&ng=24&ncc=24) when the Holy Spirit touched me very deeply with a thought. We know that the book of Revelation was originally addressed to 7 Churches in Asia. There's no disputing that. The only questions have been as to whether it had literal or spiritual fulfillments, if it's fulfillments were exclusively 1st century, or for the near future from then or now, and/or if it has multiple fulfillments, or if it should be taken as explicit Christian allegorical porn whose objective isn't the exposure of human flesh for Christians to see, but the exposure of the nakedness and impotence of wickedness in the presence of the finished work of the Christ.
Here's the part that the Holy Spirit touched me with very deeply: as you read through chapters 2 and 3, those 7 churches DEFINITELY DID NOT have it all together -- from the natural way of looking at things -- with their tolerance of those holding the doctrines of Balaam, of Jezabel, of the Nicolaitans, etc. Some were praised for seeing through false Apostles and false Jews, but others were condemned for fornication, whether literally or in the sense of a book of Hosea reference; there were condemnations for the eating of sacrifices to idols; a condemnation on getting caught up with the wealth that's the natural outcome of the Gospel working in one's life in it's entirety: they were condemned for straying from being rich towards God; there were rebukes for forsaking one's first love, etc.
Whatever the book of Revelation means, and whatever it meant to it's first century audience -- they didn't have to be proficiently walking in spiritual maturity without sinking in their attempt to walk on the water with the Lord [like Peter did] before the Lord could give them such a grand Revelation. They didn't have to have it all together before the Lord would give them such a grand revelation. Paul spoke very strongly to spiritual babies about not being able to show them anything because of their inconsistency in the faith, their wavering in love, and their fluctuating hope because of being caught up with the affairs of this life. Sometimes in reading those comments from Paul in 1Corinthians and elsewhere, it can be a little discouraging when from our own perspective, [so often] if we could just see a few steps further than where we're at, then we'd be able to walk a straighter line with the Lord, or at least have more hope and praise towards the Lord.
When there are seasons of our lives that Christ's Ephesians 4 gifts to us of whatever Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers that He's placed in our lives -- when we're in those seasons that they can't really get through to us because of whatever's going on in our heads, in our lives, in our pains, etc. -- one of the purposes of the book of Revelation is to show us that even when we don't have it all together, He's still able to get through to us in His own way to show us the triumph of Christ over sinners; of Jerusalem over Babylon; of Good over evil. He can still show you exceedingly, abundantly, above, and beyond all that you can ask, think, or imagine according to His power -- even when you feel condemned and as though He'd have absolutely no reason to, because you don't feel like you're even trying with what He's given you thus far. He's not limited by your performance, even in the things that He's able to show you. He's not limited by the strength of your roots. He's still willing and able to show you all kinds of things, even when you're emotionally a total mess!
Jesus is still hearing things from the Father that He fully intends to pass along to you -- inspite of what you just did, or failed to do; should have done, wished you'd done/hadn't done -- whatever! Perhaps like John on the isle of Patmos you've thought that this latest whatever means that your life, ministry, relationships, or whatever are completely over with because of this latest incarceration by your flesh or the natural realm around you. He'll speak to you again. He'll touch you again to where you'll fall under the manifestation of His Presence and Power, and you'll get up on your feet totally refreshed by Jesus, your High Priest. You'll understand the mystery of all of the glory that surrounds Him, that you're called to inherit and walk together with Him in. Perhaps it won't be a Jewish menorah (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2006-25,GGLG:en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=define%3A+menorah&spell=1) that He'll show you, but it'll be the mystery to your own family, to those that you're STILL called to minister to, inspite of feeling like you're in chains and powerless to speak or to be heard.
It says in the Gospel of John that those who believe on Jesus, as the Scriptures have said (about Him, no doubt) then out of their belly would flow rivers of living water, which the Gospel of John goes on to interpret for us as the Holy Spirit's baptism upon our lives. In the book of Isaiah, I believe around the 12th chapter we're assured that with joy you draw water from the well of salvation. Yet here in Revelation 21:3-8 we're told:
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
I know we tend to each be already fairly comfortable with our interpretations, for the most part. But is this passage in Revelation 21 saying that the Lake of Fire isn't something that you're thrown into from the outside, as the imagery of Revelation 20 by itself would seem to indicate, but by contrasting it with the fountain of living water is this saying that the Lake of Fire is synonymous with the condemnation [and wrath] spoken of in the Gospel of John chapters 3 and 5 that would be the portion of unbelievers for the duration of their unbelief?
Is the Lake of Fire nothing more than the agitation that erupts within an unbeliever when [through the preached Word (Mark 16:15-20)] the Spirit of the Lord draws near in convicting the world about sin because they don't believe on Jesus, of righteousness because Jesus is at God's right hand and we don't see Him any more, and of judgment because the prince of this world has been judged?
Do we go from Lake of Fire to fountain of living water, according to the above passage in Revelation 21:3-8 and everything else that you know about the New Testament, the power of the Holy Spirit, and the message of the Universal Restoration in the Scriptures??
Good stuff Martin! Something rings true in my spirit while reading your words. I had very similar thoughts concerning these scriptures latley.
It's starting to make more sense to me that the Lake of Fire is something that happens within you as a response to the Spirit of the Lord drawing near, if your heart isn't right, than to say that it's this big execution pit. When you're heart is right, then from your faith and it's contact with the Holy Spirit – rivers of living water will flow from your innermost being, or rather from your belly as the KJV is actually pretty faithful to the Greek on that point.
Many of us have had terrifying fears before that would arise within us either in response to a dangerous situation or to something stupid that we were seeing in a movie. When fear comes up like that because of wrong information and a wrong heart where our Lord is concerned while He's come into our presence in an extra special way – then where else is there to run from the fear? It will just intensify because you're anticipating the worst from the only one in the entire multiverse that would be capable of doing to you everything that you're fearfully imagining.
That's not to say that He ever would, but enough wrong information, self deception, and fear running wild and you could turn 1200 thread count bed sheets into something frightful in your own mind. A lot of people miss that when they come across Scriptures about the terrors that someone will experience in the Presence of our Lord if their heart isn't right. It's self-inflicted torment for the most part. If your spirit had hair on top of it's head and you turned every single hair completely white with your fear because God approached, that wouldn't be a reflection on Him. That would be your own knees knocking. And I'm not minimizing the torment that could come out of that. A horrendously guilty conscience is an intolerable burden!
The torments of the Lake of Fire are your own conscience boiling like an egg in the Presence of Jesus. The reality is that He wouldn't have to do anything to you except for getting a little closer and if your heart isn't right, you'll scream like an ax murderer is taking his sweet time taking all of your skin off, one dry razor burn after the other. Revelation 21 says that the Lord has made His home among mankind, and some are experiencing that as a fountain of living water, while others are experiencing a very unpleasant burning in the pit of their stomachs over it.
A lot of people look at the fact that the gates of the Holy City will never be closed at any point, but that there are angels at each gate. They think that that's to keep anyone out because outside of the Holy City are all of the people with all of the problems. Outside of the Holy City are the people with unresolved sin and worship issues before our Lord, fear and reluctance issues to come and bow before Him and to yield to all that He would have their lives to be through the power of His Holy Spirit. But how does the book of Revelation end? The Spirit and the Bride say "Come! Whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely!!" In other words, no one has to be a prisoner of a guilty conscience, the rebellion of their past, and the weight of everything that they've become liable for with all that they've done while not being submitted to Jesus Christ.
That burning fear can stop. Those burning memories can lose their sting. That agony over having disappointed both themselves and their Lord Jesus can stop. The only inherent virtue in the fire is when it brings you to the point that you don't want it to burn any more, and you're ready to say "Lord Jesus, not my will, but Yours be done!" Revelation 5:13 and 1Corinthians 15:28 tell us that it's going to happen someday, because according to 1Timothy 2:6 Jesus Christ is still the corresponding ransom for all. That He's the corresponding ransom for all means that they're emphatically His, regardless of what anybody thinks that He will or ought to do with them. He'll show each of them the same grace and patience that He's shown to each of us.
Their burning will stop. Their thirst will be quenched with the Words of Jesus. The torment will stop. All tears will be wiped off of all faces – the Lord's face and the face of every single person that's ever existed or that will ever exist by that time period. Everything's already been taken care of. Everything has already been fixed. All of the problems, globally, are more mental and emotional than any kind of spiritual reality of darkness or anything like that. All things will be clarified and reconciled. The work of Jesus Christ, according to Romans 5, brings justification of life. That's not just talking about personally being made righteous or sanctified or anything like that. That means that there's something that's been released from the Heart of God into the Creation that will ultimately permeate absolutely all of it. It will make all of the previous pain and everything else that we've gone through totally worth it to get to see what we'll each see of wholeness and oneness for all of Creation with our heavenly Father.
Each of us has our part to play in the suffering. Each of us is that quantum event that when we resist a temptation, we've resisted it for all of Creation. When we refuse to walk in the old man, we're creating resistance for each individual in all of Creation to be able to put off the old man and to put on the new man through Jesus Christ. It's all related and we're all connected. Creation has fallen together through Adam and is rising together through Jesus Christ. Each temptation to vary from the pattern of Jesus Christ in our lives completely overcome by the power of our new lives in Jesus Christ is the second hand on the clock leading us towards the New Heavens and New Earth that God has for each and every single one of us. It's not a particular date on a calendar, like 2012, 2042, 2046, or 3010 when Jesus will come back and when the present heavens and earth will be engulfed into the New.
It's every act of rebellion against sin, every act of rebellion against hatred, ever act of rebellion against any word that's not a Word of the Gospel that'll get us there. There are only a certain number of temptations for each of us [to overcome] before Jesus screams the quickening Word and the Holy Spirit does something absolutely miraculous through our bodies that's unspeakable in conforming these vile bodies into the image of His own. Every temptation not overcome doesn't count in the final count. Every temptation not overcome is just one more temptation that'll need to be overcome. Every temptation not overcome won't push that button of life in the machinery of the heaven of heavens, that we're each awaiting the pushing of so that we can get on to the higher level of existence that each of us have been awaiting. We've each known there was something stronger, higher, better, richer, and more pure than this existence that we've been awaiting – whatever our views of the last two chapters of the book of Revelation, whether literal or figurative or somewhere in between.
Each of us has our Cross. All of us are already on it. We've just got to push our own nails out to be able to get off of it and to enjoy the fuller realm of life that Jesus Christ has created for us, both in this world and elsewhere. Each of us have been crucified long enough, but some yield to every emotion and every thought that's not the purity of the Gospel, so they prolong their own crucifixion needlessly. The Holy Spirit is the strength and wisdom within you. He's not a hand that'll pull the nails out for you and peel your butt off of that wood. You're going to have to push. You're going to have to rebel against death. You're going to have to rebel against what's "common." He's waiting on us. We're not waiting on Him. He's done what He's going to do. He's just along for the ride now enjoying the fellowship with each of us. He's [still] saying what He said in John 14:12-15 – "you've seen and heard all that I've done – now top it!"
Has anyone ever noticed that the "Marriage Supper of the Lamb" of Revelation 19 is between Jesus, or the Holy Spirit and the Babylon that received all of it's punishment in the 18th chapter? That's the first time I'd ever seen "what" brought John to his knees in that chapter wanting to worship [and in his case misdirecting it towards the angel] 'cause it did the same thing to me!! Just a few minutes ago, I read the whole book of Revelation from my Concordant Literal and when I got to that part I was like :omg:
I do miss these kinds of discussions . . .ones where they are about the redemptive work of Christ in us rather than the dissecting of a definition . .not that it's not important, it just seems to be so much more beneficial to feed off of the life flowing out of others, like you, when revelation comes to them/you.
I'm in a tough place now with my superiors . . .they have learned of a few of my differences with the denomination and they are not at all happy. There was a bit of a blow up this past weekend as I was attending a pastor's district get-together. I do so enjoy to revelate in the spirit realm, and yet, they see it as heresy . . .my tenure with this particular denomination may be coming to an end . . .I'm waiting for their promised follow-up to investigate more where I am. We're diligently looking for purchasing our own house right now with that in mind.
At any rate, the Babylon you speak of . . .who is it?
For me, it's my carnality, my fleshly ways of thinking. My mind has laid with any ole' belief and rather than remain with the Groom of Truth, she has laid with other men's contrafeit babblings, she has embraced her own version of truth and in doing so, defiled herself . . .only to be redeemed back and returned to her (speaking of my mind still) virgin state. Only in the spirit can one go from a harlot to a virgin. That's just how powerful the blood of the Lamb really is.
How much greater of a joy do we receive by pursuing these revelations as opposed to letting our minds intellect spar with another's! Even though Peter had a living experience with the articles contained within the ark of the tabernacle in the mount of transfiguration . . .Elijah representing Aaron's rod, Moses representing the law, and Christ representing the manna . . .and he immediately wanted to build a platform and sacrifice to each of them, God did not hesitate to inform him, there is only one to which we're to give our offerings of praise and honor to . .it's not to the details of the literal words within the law, it's not to the superficial feelings of spiritual manifestations, but it's to the manna . . to Christ. For "in him" the others are inbedded into.
I worship with you in seeing my Babylon has come to the redemption of Christ.
Quote from: Nathan on September 09, 2008, 03:46:13 PM
I'm in a tough place now with my superiors . . .they have learned of a few of my differences with the denomination and they are not at all happy. There was a bit of a blow up this past weekend as I was attending a pastor's district get-together. I do so enjoy to revelate in the spirit realm, and yet, they see it as heresy . . .my tenure with this particular denomination may be coming to an end . . .
Of course not all churches are the same but the way I see it most would even marry the devil to please everyone. Read generate more cash.
Here in the Netherlands moslims are causing lots and lot of trouble. So a bishop/cardinal suggests we (Christians) shouldn't call God God anymore but allah because that also means god....
That may sound a bit off-topic but it makes me wonder why they hate Christian based UR while we need to bow for pagan allah...
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 09, 2008, 07:41:29 PM
Of course not all churches are the same but the way I see it most would even marry the devil to please everyone. Read generate more cash.
oh my goodness, wabbit! you do have a way with words!
Nathan--
sorry about your situation....I'm praying right now for you and your family to find a peaceful place that you can afford and go to in order to study what you know to be the truth!
Martin--
I am sooo glad you brought this up! Before I comment further about that passage.......I'd really like to ask you a couple of questions first!
1-- who did you THINK was Babylon before?
2-- who did you THINK was being "married" before?
3-- who did you THINK made up the invitation list to the "marriage supper of the Lamb?"
4-- at what point does the marriage supper take place AND WHY?
okay...that's probably enough questions to help you finish that 4th doctorate you've been working on.... :laughing7:
Joyce :)
Quote from: joyful1 on September 10, 2008, 10:31:27 PM
Martin-- I am sooo glad you brought this up! Before I comment further about that passage.......I'd really like to ask you a couple of questions first!
1-- who did you THINK was Babylon before?
2-- who did you THINK was being "married" before?
3-- who did you THINK made up the invitation list to the "marriage supper of the Lamb?"
4-- at what point does the marriage supper take place AND WHY?
7th, but I can accept what seem to be the four or five predominant views on Babylon: Jerusalem, Rome, and literally Babylon, as in Iraq. I can understand the perspective that Nathan was talking about, about coming out of our own Babylon so that we don't receive the punishment that that old nature deserves. Because the prophecy about the fall of Babylon is sooo detailed with details that I've never seen a good allegorization of, then I'm leaning towards an actual physical location. The prophecy even seems to make "Babylon" into a port city. And I'm not sure if Jerusalem, Rome, literal Babylon, this world's system, or any of the other cities that have been conjectured about over the centuries really fits the bill yet, as far as something for a literal fulfillment, either 1938 years ago with the 70AD incidents or in the near future. If you take the book of Revelation both literally, or with some literalism, and as a prophecy of the future in the way that many do, there's supposed to be sooo many catastrophies that are happening leading up to the fulfillment of that, that perhaps the face of the earth is completely redone and cities that aren't port cities today might become port cities in a few years through global warming and whatever else, including areas being blasted to Gehenna or Tartarus with nuclear weapons or supercolliders:-)
In Rabbinical thought, the wedding was always supposed to be between the Messiah and Israel. In Biblical thought, though, the picture seems to be more about the coming of all nations to embrace the Lordship of Jesus and to be discipled by the Church. St. Paul says in Romans chapters 9-11 not to count out Israel 'cause it'll come as well, though it's lagging behind.
As far as who made up the list to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, that would evidently be those that would come of their own free will, according to the principles of the Kingdom, because of the parable in Matthew 22 about going out there and getting them, yet someone still got thrown out because they didn't have the right garment on. Some would try to make it about God's Sovereignty, but God's not the one that made the dude in Matthew 22 show up in his briefs; or his swim suit; or his shorts, T-shirt, and flip flops. The garment indicates to me, discipleship: those that are letting the heavenly Father carry their cross daily of all of their cares, and those that are simply doing what He's telling them to do, and are continuing in the Words of the Gospel, treasuring them up in their mouth and heart, and living their lives accordingly. Because in Revelation 7:13-16 it doesn't say anything about God's Sovereignty until it brings up His Shepherding those that had washed their garments in the Blood of the Lamb. But it does say that they're coming out of great tribulation, which could be analogous to the double punishments that Babylon is getting in Revelation 18. And though you may need to refer to another thread or two on this book of Revelation board to get where I'm coming from, if you hadn't already read them, to me this Marriage Supper of the Lamb passage overlaps with the 7th bowl, the 7th trumpet, the 7th seal, and the 7th letter written to the Churches that Revelation is addressed to. So, a part of the 7th letter in Revelation is the Revelation 3:20 passage where He tells you plainly who dines with Him: those that open the door when He knocks.
So, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb should be taking place daily, but in a special sense in the book of Revelation it's happening for the city that opens the door to Him after coming out of the double punishments of Revelation 18. My difficulty with making the passage the Jerusalem of 70AD is that they did not enter into the Marriage Supper of the Lamb afterwards and between 50% and 70% of them have remained in unbelief ever since. And I can't see that much of a "gap theory" between Revelation chapters 18 and 19 where the outpouring of the Holy Spirit is taking place and the wicked are being slain from their wickedness (Micah 7:19).
If we take these things to be more literal than spiritual, does that not take away from the fact that this book is a revelation of "Jesus Christ"? If we turn this all around and start naming people's and nations in the places of Babylons and natural Jews, it seems to become more about us instead of him.
Jesus is who was, is, and is to come . .the very things John was to write in Revelation one . . . it's not a chronological order of events coming to our generation at all. Not to me anyway. It's about the redemption between God and man through Christ. Babylon, the bottomless pit, the beast, the dragon . .all of these are the speaking of the same being . . .my carnal mind. The mind of man . . . the literal piece has already transpired with the uprooting of Israel's beleif system . .it had to. The levitical order had to be removed as it was just a precurser to the order of Melchezedek.
Quote from: Nathan on September 11, 2008, 06:29:35 PM
If we take these things to be more literal than spiritual, does that not take away from the fact that this book is a revelation of "Jesus Christ"? If we turn this all around and start naming people's and nations in the places of Babylons and natural Jews, it seems to become more about us instead of him.
But if we spiritualize what's already spiritual, aren't we rejecting the statements of Jesus Christ in favor of our own brand of occultism? The book of Revelation is most definitely an order of events coming to our world and perhaps to our generation, or within the next few generations, but it's not stated in chronological order from chapters 1 through 22. (As I've said elsewhere, I'm leaning towards an alignment of the letters in Revelation corresponding with the seals, trumpets, and bowls in numerical order because Revelation 22:6-10 indicates that it's both predictive prophecy and wisdom literature, similar to Hosea's description of itself in it's final verse.) The book of Revelation is about the purification of cities and nations. The book of Hebrews is a twin epistle of Revelation. Perhaps I'll demonstrate that sometime on these boards. Just like Ephesians and Colossians are thought to be twin epistles, although they're not strictly twins in any sense of the word. The book of Hebrews deals with the uprooting of Israel's belief system that was contrary to the Scriptures and the replanting of God's belief system. The book of Revelation is essentially the same thing, but with regards to the nations. And until I've seen the nations belief systems uprooted and God's belief system replanted in the nations, then the book of Revelation cannot yet be said to be fulfilled. As far as personal purification, we have all of St. Paul's epistles for that. We're in no short supply of material to see our own complete comformity to the image of Jesus Christ through the magnifying glass of St. Paul's epistles that pulls down the light from heaven upon our lives as a laser to carve out of the stone of our lives His beautiful image.
Quote from: martincisnerosIf we spiritualize what's already spiritual, aren't we rejecting the statements of Jesus Christ in favor of our own brand of occultism?
Agreed. There seems to be a problem understanding what 'spiritual' actually means. A few here believe that spiritual means abstract idealism or philosophy and yet others here believe that spiritual means 'emotional' and on top of this a few here believe it means both those things.
So what is your definition of spiritual and spiritualization?
Quote from: SOtW on September 11, 2008, 08:00:18 PM
Agreed. There seems to be a problem understanding what 'spiritual' actually means. A few here believe that spiritual means abstract idealism or philosophy and yet others here believe that spiritual means 'emotional' and on top of this a few here believe it means both those things.
So what is your definition of spiritual and spiritualization?
I don't want anything that I ever say to seem like I'd demean applying the Word to our own lives. I wholeheartedly agree with that and teach that everywhere that I go. But I do think that some people take their allegorizations a little too far, particularly when their "types and shadows" lack consistency throughout the Scriptures. When the Word only means something about ourselves and we leave out the nations of the world and God's specific dealings with locations and people in locations (Acts 17) then we've taken a flying leap into the absurd. To me, the Bible is everything that it always was: it addresses the individual; the couple; the family; the city; the region, state, or province; the nation; the nations; and all of Creation.
To me, spirituality would be having all of that balanced in one's understanding, and behaving in God's faith, hope, and love accordingly. To me, an unhealthy spiritualization is looking for allegory when there's clear commandment, statement, intent, and details. Some try to say that the book of Revelation, for example, is nothing but symbolism. Anybody that says that, sincerely hasn't read it very many times and very likely hasn't read all 22 chapters in a really long time. It's a mixture of symbolism with statements, encouragements, pronouncements, and details that if you try to get too weird with them, then you're not spiritual, you're just weird.
I have zero dispute with anyone that believes that Armageddon takes place in the spiritual realm, and a few other actual interpretations work for me as well, until the Holy Spirit clarifies it to me with His understanding of it. But I've seen too many Christians make vague generalizations about different things and then try to say that it's their spiritual interpretation, when it doesn't exhort, edify, encourage, warn, prepare, rebuke, or any of the other things that St. Paul said that the Scriptures were profitable for. It breaks down into the very disputing over words that he forbade! It's just their wittiness at drawing an irrelevant meaning out of the passage that suits them, but wouldn't stand up in a court of law with very many theologians and prophets. I'm not talking about anyone in particular. And I don't have anything specifically in mind as I'm saying this. To me, spirituality is simply walking in the Covenant with Christ, doing what He says to do, and keeping every care cast upon God, according to 1Peter 5:6-7.
We're exhorted to be sober and vigilant in keeping the devil out of our lives, but that's accomplished through what I've just said with doing all that He says and keeping every care cast upon Him. That's the Christian walk to me: doing everything that He says and keeping every care cast upon Him. There is no Christianity without both sides of that equation. Since the New Testament is filled with spiritualizations and allegorizations of the Old Testament, then there's not as much room for doing that with the New Testament as a lot of people imagine. That predominantly belongs with reading the Old Testament and filtering our understanding of the Old Testament through the doctrines of the New Testament.
An insight -- any insight might be true, but does it do the work of an evangelist, a prophet, a teacher, and a pastor when you share it with others? Are others pushed just a little further into being conformed with the image of Jesus Christ by being made aware of that? Insights are wonderful. They're often very helpful with one's own personal walk with the Lord, and they'll often have a direct context for something that you're dealing with. But when it's not an actual life-changing revelation that has clear application to the growth of others, is it really worth sharing, until it's own inherent leavening has matured and seasoned it with practical applications and an actual flow of understanding of the Scriptures, of the Christian walk, and of overcoming every adversary??
Now, if someone were to come and say, "I personally believe that such and such consistently means such and such throughout this particular book of the Bible, these particular books of the Bible, or throughout the whole Bible," then there's more of a basis for judging the revelation, as it says to in the Corinthians letters, and there's more of a chance for the edification, challenging, and Scriptural motivation of every believer when something looks like it's going to have some consistency. But when it's a form of Bible trivia that doesn't really take us anywhere, but is presented and even defended as though it were sacred doctrine when there's no sense of actual doctrine, application, and transformation to it, but is merely someone's favorite thing to read into a Scripture, then that's when I start having some issues with it being dogmatized about when something else was being said or inquired about.
Probably all of us have insights that we've received from the Holy Spirit that we're sitting on until we see where the Lord wants to take that, what relevance it has to the Scriptures and to our lives, and how we can help to set Creation free with it. But real maturity knows the difference between something that can be said that's a genuine baptism with the Holy Spirit to someone else; what'll destroy yokes and remove burdens, and what just contributes to what St. Paul would call the itchy ear syndrome. I've seen far too many things on these boards that are just partial insights that the Holy Spirit hadn't finished fully explaining and giving perspective on that have been used by spiritual babies to take dogmatic stands against areas of sound Christian doctrine.
And when people do that, they're not only thumbing their nose in the face of historic Christian doctrines, but they're aborting the revelation that God was going to give them because they prematurely made a judgment call and wound up getting judged with the same judgment they dished out. So they wind up neither understanding the Christian doctrine in question or where the Holy Spirit was really trying to take them with a particular partial insight because they got into strife and as Mark 4 says, the Word was choked in them and brought no fruit to maturity.
And I know from experience what it's like to have to sit on some insights for years that the Holy Spirit never would take me any further with until more mature seasons of my life when I'd learned sooo much more, and then He'd remind me of what He told me 15 years ago and say "oh and by the way......" and I'd be sooo thankful that that hadn't been my tape of the month those years ago! Because back then I was looking at a sihlouette and not anywhere near as much detail as I thought that I was seeing with such and such a controversial or novel thought. But when other things came into perspective, "BANG!" this other insight finally had a face, supporting doctrine, and the accompanying signs, wonders, miracles, and the richest Presence of God that I'd ever experienced up until then. And those many years ago, I'd written out pages and pages and pages of journaling about such and such that I thought meant something entirely different and reforming to the present face of Christendom.
When all it wound up being was a fresh perspective and a back door way to get me into an area of Biblical doctrine already believed in by tens of millions that I wouldn't have been able to have seen and understood without that oddball insight that was one of the Lord's steps in bridging the gap between my understanding and my ability to accept His Word on something that's still controversial with a lot of people. Real oddball revelations that are from Him have a way of ultimately pulling you in tighter with the rest of the Body of Christ rather than fragmenting you away from them. If every revelation a person is supposedly getting is distancing them further and further from the Body of Christ, then there's reason to question which spirit they're listening to. Doctrinal differences are one thing, but a spirit of suspicion, accusation, and conspiracy against the Body of Christ where the Lord has said that there is no conspiracy (Isaiah 8:12) is of the evil one.
I agree with you on almost everything you said, and the stuff I didn't agree with I don't disagree either, I just don't understand. :P
Okay....Martin--
so now that you've had an "ah-haa" moment....
what is it that you see that may be different than before?
Joyce :)
I have many serious issues with the belief that Revelation is still going to happen. Things like . . .Daniel was told to seal the book because it was things for another day . . .Jesus opened the book . . .John was given an extension of it and at the very end, he's specifically told "not" to seal it because the "time is at hand". Meaning . .to me . .that it had already begun.
If it was only 600 years or so between Daniel and Jesus and Daniel was told to seal it . .then how are we to expect that even though John was told "not" to seal it up, that it's going to happen 2000 years later? it just doesn't fit at all.
Having said that, do not jump to the conclusion in thinking that I am a Preterist . .I am not. But there are things they do claim that I do agree with and this is one of them.
Another piece to this is . . .to whom was it originally written to? It is believed that it was written to a generation of people that was seeing the beginning of the end as far as the religious system goes . .and as far as a nation goes for that matter. So, in that setting, what the traditional belief is . .these guys are litterally running for their lives. They see rape, murder and mutilation of their own family members on a daily basis. They're trying to just survive in caves or where ever they find any hint of safety, and then the word comes . . .John . .the last living disciple who had also been caught and an attempt at boiling him to death miraculously failed, had recieved a revelation from God for the church.
The anticipation building up to the delivery of that message to the churches must have been unimaginable. But the day would finally come and as the priest unrolled the scroll . ..hands shaking as they were so needing a deliverance or at least something they could hang on to that would give them strength to get through such a terrible time . . .and what tradition is wanting me to believe is . . the message to that generation is . . ."Hold on! Because 2000 years from now . . .Jesus is coming!"
It just doesn't fit for me.
Yes, I pursue the spiritual piece. I have thrown myself into this because I understand and appreciate the fact that I'm not to lean on my own understanding . .that my mind is at emnity with God . .that my natrual reasoning just can't comprehend spiritual realities. So, yeah, I most willingly walk away from knowledge and walk into revelation. Because what I've found is, when my mind shuts up, my spirit gets life and in return, that life is then planted in my mind and understanding does come . .but there's an order to it.
The spiritual understanding, in my view, is seeing an intimate connection between Christ and man . . .the redemptive effects of what the cross has accomplished in man . . . relationship between soul and spirit . . and understanding that "I" am spirit and the words are nothing more than words until the Spirit breathes life into them, giving them and I a whole new meaning of truth. The end result, there is no fear, there is no condemnation, there is no attack against another for not seeing the same things, there is only love and acceptance.
As big as God is . . .do we really think we have such a great understanding above another that we can say "I'm right, you're wrong."? It's not about right and wrong, never was . . .it's always been about becoming one.
Quote from: joyful1 on September 11, 2008, 11:12:49 PM
Okay....Martin--
so now that you've had an "ah-haa" moment....
what is it that you see that may be different than before?
Joyce :)
To me, what I started this thread with somewhat weakens the initial impression about the book of Revelation as being a doom/gloom book and it gives it as beautiful of a pedestal to shine from as Isaiah, the Psalms, or Song of Solomon. One surprise for me last night, as I re-read through the whole book of Revelation aloud from my Scarlett's New Testament and then from my Concordant Literal New Testament is that I was better able to see how some people interpret the burning city as Rome. I'm not 100% sure yet that I agree with that being the identity of the mystery babylon of the book of Revelation, but it made more sense last night than it had in quite a few years.
As far as Nathan's questions, the persecutions against Christians weren't that intense prior to 70AD. And it definitely wasn't wide-spread. It was mostly localized stuff until later. A persecution in Jerusalem, or in another city, or in another city, but it wasn't overwhelming until later. Isaiah gave the prophecy of the virgin birth to someone, but it's fullest fulfillment wasn't for over 700 years. God promised Adam that the seed of the woman would bruise the head of the serpent. Would it have been fair to have given Adam such a prophecy with all that he was going through that wasn't to be fulfilled until another 4,000 to 40,000 years? Time is irrelevant with much of Biblical prophecy. God says what He wants to say, when He wants to say it, about events that are either immediate or long-term. The book of Revelation could lack a total fulfillment for another 10,000 years and still have as startling of a series of fulfillments as the Old Testament prophecies had in the first coming of Jesus Christ. It just winds up being in proportion to God's faith and wisdom and however long it takes Him to call things that be not as though they were until all of His objectives and all of the background stage scenery is in place for His prophecies to come to pass on the particular stage that He wants them fulfilled on. When God says something, there's the fact of it happening to the letter, but there's also the part about the mindset of the people that are in the background as it happens, and there's the consequences and ramifications afterwards that God is wanting, as in when some of the historians will point to Christianity having come onto the scene at precisely the right moment because of the Roman roads, the communication network throughout the empire, etc.
My discovery of the last few days put the book of Revelation in my eyes into the same category as the Song of Solomon. The next thing for me to look at/into is that the Apostle John was told to prophesy over languages (Revelation 10:11).
QuoteAs big as God is . . .do we really think we have such a great understanding above another that we can say "I'm right, you're wrong."? It's not about right and wrong, never was . . .it's always been about becoming one.
This is not about "I'm right, you're wrong" it is about what is correct and what is not correct. This is not an issue of another man knowing more or not, but there are those who have much greater understanding compared to another and to deny this is blindness.
Romans 1:18-21- The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, He gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
2 Timothy 2:24-26]
- And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
Here's another look at that passage, sotw....just found an interesting discrepancy :
2 Timothy 2:24-26 (Young's Literal Translation)
24 and a servant of the Lord it behoveth not to strive, but to be gentle unto all, apt to teach, patient under evil,
25 in meekness instructing those opposing -- if perhaps God may give to them repentance to an acknowledging of the truth,
26 and they may awake out of the devil's snare, having been caught by him at his will.
Joyce :)
Quote from: SOtW on September 15, 2008, 06:31:05 AM
There is a famous physicist who wrote a couple books of collider black holes. He invented a machine which can receive information he sends back in time from the future. He actually has the math all sorted out, and is waiting for the information gathered from the collider experiment to finally apply it. It will be pretty cool if he can do it. Although, he says plainly, "Nature abhors a time machine." because the only way time flows is forward.
You can go in any direction in time that space would allow you to go since space and time are interchangeable, and the one is convertable into the other. Space and time are neither created nor destroyed, but just change forms: the one into the other or vice versa. We should have developed time travel at the same time as we developed space travel, but as we developed the ability to work with matter before we learned how to work with energy, it seems as though we've been destined to overcome traveling great distances before we were able to work with time.
The ability to redeem time is a New Testament revelation. Time should never "fly." That's a property of the curse of the law (Deuteronomy 28). God promised both length of days and long life. And even scientifically, as you age you shouldn't grow older. That curse was annihilated at the Cross. There have been studies of people in mental hospitals, where some major trauma happened in their lives with regards to a loved one, and though they'd been in the mental hospital for decades ever since a spouse or boyfriend/girlfriend never came home from the war or from whatever, they stopped aging the day they went into their psychosis, trance, or whatever. Time became our possession the day that Jesus was raised from the dead. "Ages" in the New Testament isn't just a revelation of durations or the goofy idea of dispensations.
Time is a part of our inheritance. And you don't die to inherit an inheritance that's been left to you. Someone else dies. Time isn't just water that's been running out of our hands. It's personal property. And I'm determined not to be the fool that buried the talent and went to the Lake of Fire over it. We're joint-heirs with Christ. Not when we die. From the moment we opened the door and began eating of His Flesh and Blood literally and daily, time became ours. We were conveyed out of the Kingdom, or time demension, of darkness and translated into the Kingdom, or time demension, of the Son of His Love.
Jesus Christ, in His ministry where He has the same orders as Melchezedec had, leads us from the moment that He's seated us at His right hand in our baptism with the Holy Spirit, according to Revelation 19 to where all of the birds of the heavens and the beasts of the field are able to gorge themselves on the time line that has warred against the armies of the Lamb in this world. Time unrestrained by a believer's authority is what tries to war against the Lamb and His armies.
A lot of people have mentioned what they consider to be the "is/was/will be" principle in the Scriptures and the fact that that's a principle unique to Him. But it goes beyond that, because where He's at, that's where we're supposed to be.
Happy is he who is reading and those who are hearing the word of the prophecy, and who are keeping that which is written in it, for the era is near. Revelation 1:3 Concordant Literal New Testament
So often, we've been preoccupied with the fulfilling of events and haven't been paying attention to the different statements of the Scriptures that say that the time is near. Not just the events are near, or their fulfillment, consummation, or whatever. But the era is near. The events get us to the era. They're geographical points in space and time that point us towards the era being near.
The "era" is our inheritance, along with all of the various descriptions and compounds of the ages found in the Scriptures. For Christ's Kingdom to have not been of that world that He spoke to, and yet to have simultaneously been "at hand" means that it was buried in the time demension. He was leading people to a demension of time where they'd neither hunger nor thirst any more, but at the same time He'd jump on their tails and ours if any of us got all preoccupied with the loaves or the details of how the Kingdom realm was manifesting in their midst, because that preoccupation was a thief of time; the time that He was bringing them: the fullness of time, where all things were theirs'. God in the fullness of time sent forth His Son, born of a woman....etc., as it says in Galatians. It wasn't just a calendar date. He had the Holy Spirit without measure:
Holy Spirit without measure = fullness of time.
QuoteThe ability to redeem time is a New Testament revelation. Time should never "fly." That's a property of the curse of the law (Deuteronomy 28). God promised both length of days and long life.
You always have such interesting things to say. I'd like to see more scripture regarding this. I know that Jesus played games with space--disappearing and reappearing--did he also do things with time? I guess Phillip translating to a different city had the effect of 'saving' time in travel.
Back in my eastern philosophy days, I noted that a lot of those fellows played games with time--particularly with slowing it down. So I did that for a while myself. It does seem to work. Helps you to never be late for an appointment. Anyone who has been in an accident or other threatening situation knows that time automatically slows down and you have time to make decisions, if such are possible. Things happen in slow motion, allowing the brain plenty of time to think. So there is clearly a mechanism in the human brain that allows for time to slow down.
My sense right now, however, is that time is speeding up. Many people also say this to me--it's just flying by these days. I think that making an effort to slow it down would be a good thing--give us more time to prepare for or change the future, which, if truth be told, is not looking particularly great to me at the moment--although recently I have been given more hope.
Having Time is always an advantage. Those under time are under bondage.
30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.--Gal 4
26for as often as ye may eat this bread, and this cup may drink, the death of the Lord ye do shew forth -- till he may come; (1Corinthians 11:26 Young's Literal)
26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. (1Corinthians 11:26 KJV)
26Therefore as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye shew forth the Lord's death, till he come. (1Corinthians 11:26 Wesley's New Testament 1755)
We've not been doing that. People have not been seeing the Lord's death 'til He comes when we've had the Bread and the Cup, both through our lack of diligence and our lack of spending enough time with the Scriptures to know what this means, particularly as it regards our redemption and our inheritance of time itself. And I realize that the Greek here can mean to announce, proclaim, or to signify, but it does definitely mean "to show." His crucifixion is literally an ensignia on time itself that we're supposed to show others.
Revelation 10:6 in the KJV indicates an ending of time as we've known it, and the inauguration of a new time line in the verse after it:
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer
While Revelation 10:6 in the Concordant Literal indicates an ending of the time of delay. Too many of our lives have been a time of delay where various parts of the promises of God have been concerned for our lives. But this says that there won't be a suspension any longer of the time line that we should have been on, in favor of the time line we've been on where in various areas of our lives we've just been spinning our wheels:
6 and swears by Him Who is living for the eons of the eons, Who creates heaven and that which is in it, and the earth and that which is in it, and the sea and that which is in it, that there will be no longer a time of delay,
And of course, "eons of eons" in this Concordant Literal translation of Revelation 10:6 has more to do with the vast expanse of the real estate of time that God is living for right now, rather than being any indication of Him living throughout the eons of eons. Where is God? He's living for the eons of eons :Sparkletooth:
Yes, but where is God? He's living for the eons of eons :Sparkletooth:
The eons of eons relate back to His filling all things, according to Ephesians 4:10. Revelation 22:5 says about us:
...And they shall be reigning for the eons of the eons.
We're filling the vast expanse of the eons of the eons with the reign of Christ that we're joint-heirs of. While those that are tormented are tormented for the eons of the eons (Revelation 14:11, 19:3), meaning -- again -- not the duration, but the span of the existance of the real estate of this time line. A part of their torment, since it's related to the "eons of the eons," is the revelation of how the righteous reign with Christ in laying down their lives for one another. It's the sense of regret for having been self absorbed and not having locked on to the burden and yoke of Christ to do things His way.
6 And I perceived another messenger flying in mid-heaven, having an eonian evangel to bring to those situated on the earth, and to every...language..., (Revelation 14:6 Concordant Literal)
A messenger flying in mid-heaven, or in the second heaven, having a Gospel related to the age. What would be an age pertaining to Great News to bring to those situated in every language, other than the lifting of those limitations and of every limitation from their lives through entering into the Blood of the eonian Covenant (Hebrews 13:20)?
Fullness of the Spirit is pretty much the equivalent of saying "eons of eons" in Scripture because of Ephesians 4:10:
10he who went down is the same also who went up far above all the heavens, that He may fill all things -- (Ephesians 4:10 Young's Literal)
The all things that He fills is the "eons of eons," which is where everyone is at. These are the same "eons of eons" throughout which (not "throughout which" in terms of duration but in terms of space) we're to bring glory to Him:
21 be adapting you to every good work to do His will, doing in us what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to Whom be glory for the eons of the eons. Amen! (Hebrews 13:21 Concordant Literal)
And pay attention to the word "Amen" in the 21st verse I've just mentioned because it follows the phrase "eons of eons" at least 2 or 3 times in the book of Revelation when it comes to the Lord's place in the "eons of eons." It's not applied to Him each time He's spoken of in terms of the "eons of eons," though. But that this happens 3 or 4 times in the Scriptures has got to be significant since "Amen" is one of the Names of Jesus in the Bible (Revelation 3:14). "Amen" not only means "so be it!" but according to Revelation 3:14 it's also in the sense of Jesus being the public notary in what's being said between us and the Father. He's the public notary, so of course He's handling the notarized document in the book of Revelation in terms of the scroll that has 7 seals.
OK, Martin--if you could run that by me again...much more slowly...lol...I didn't understand a word of it.
I understand this much:
6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
--Rev 14
You know, I would just like to know when people are going to 'grow up' and start acting like decent human beings instead of the greedy, self absorbed, criminal behavior that seems to come so naturally to the human race. Is there time for that to happen?
A restatement of all that I've said thus far on this thread in slow motion :icon_jokercolor:
26for as often as ye may eat this bread, and this cup may drink, the death of the Lord ye do shew forth -- till he may come; (1Corinthians 11:26 Young's Literal)
For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you do show forth Himself took our infirmities and bare our diseases and by His stripes ye were healed. For as often as ye eat this bread and drink this cup, you do show forth that you know and receive the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor at the Cross, that you through His poverty at the Cross would be made rich. For as often as ye eat this bread and drink this cup, you do show forth that He hath made Him to be sin for us, Who knew no sin, that we would be made the righteousness of God in Him.
In other words, as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you're taking your stand of faith regarding the meaning of everything that He did for you at the Cross, until He comes and Performs it in your life. It's not a matter of doing it until the Second Coming, if by chance that weren't for another thousand years. When you take the Bread and the Cup, you bring Melchezedec on the scene, or the One with the same orders as Melchezedec to bless you as the possessor of heaven and earth. The "until He comes" is more about until He makes all of these things good in your life rather than about an eschatological event. That's the obvious sense, because in this context St. Paul is saying that through not rightly discerning the Bread and Cup many of you are sick and some of you have died. But if we'd judge ourselves, we'd be chastened by the Lord (i.e. in whatever way this situation merits in our lives that there'd be a correction in the course of our lives) so that we wouldn't be judged with the world.
As far as the rest, we're not supposed to be victims of the ages. We're supposed to be guiding the ages as heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ, if so be that we partake of the Bread and Cup that we may also be glorified together with Him. In a special way, Time is the Gospel. The Blessing, the Cross, the resurrection, the Bread, the Cup, and our union with Him are the Gospel, but in a special sense these occur on/at the table of time. The table prepared before us in the presence of our enemies is Time. The ages correspond to every lash on the back of Jesus Christ, and in His Name we're supposed to redeem the time.
God is already out there. Jesus Christ is already out there. They're filling the eons of the eons. To be seated together with Him in heavenly places is to be filling the eons of the eons. The eons of the eons is the place of the negotiation of the surrender of all of our enemies and of their recovery and restoration from all of their crimes. The eons of eons are the stage where we demonstrate all of the wonderful works of God by tongues and interpretation of tongues and by manifestation of mighty works of the Holy Spirit through our lives. We should no longer think of time as a barrier in the same way as people in the 1400s and previously thought of the Atlantic Ocean as a barrier.
The Covenant, according to Scripture, is a Covenant pertaining to time. It's a title deed to our time so that we can redeem the time. The eonian evangel is as much an evangel to Time itself as it is to any other part of the Creation of God, because Time is a created thing. Time has been Mystery Babylon that's been on fire ever since the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Marriage Supper of the Lamb is with all of the different strands of time that we redeem with the message of the Gospel and Christ's authority that He delegated to us after His resurrection. If all power in heaven and on earth, along with all authority, has been given to Him, then it's been given to us as well since we're His joint-heirs. So, we should fast and pray for time and preach to time as to any of the other creatures of God.
Jesus stands at the door of each man's heart and is knocking at the door. The sound of the knock is conveyed or misdirected and unheard through time. Time is the next to the last barrier and the next to the last enemy that must be placed under foot. Nobody should make the mistake of saying that Time is the same thing as death, because a Gospel that's so detailed about the various increments of time that it's speaking to, and that's not afraid to speak of superstring and various quantum mysteries within it's pages, could have easily spoken up if Time itself were the last enemy. Time has been a weeping child since the fall, that's been allowing the devil to victimize the rest of Creation. Death would be greatly hindered if we were holding the reins of time much tighter and determining the strength of the flow of the glory of God through it via the Eonian Evangel that we've been given.
Since the literal Body and Blood of Jesus Christ stand both outside of, and yet permeate all of time and space at the same time, we need to witness to Time via our partaking of the Bread and the Cup to proclaim His death to Time (as well as ours through Him) until He comes to set Time free from it's bondage to the curse. The curse has already been broken from even time itself, but we've not been diligent in our testimony to the entirety of Creation, including to Time himself.
Time is more than water running out of our hands, or something that's passing that we have next to no control over. According to math and science Time and Space are interchangeable. Time is a property of Space. Not just outer space. They used to say that if you traveled far enough, fast enough, that there's the remote possibility of transcending time through the infinite mass that you'd achieve, and for other reasons. So, Time is a type of real estate. That means that the eons references in the Scriptures would have to be interpreted to meaning more than a cosmic stop watch, but would be a type of coordinates for the whole of Creation. If you want to find your great, great, great grandparents, your two choices are heaven or coordinates in time. As there's space for every purpose under heaven, the Scriptures assure us that there's time for every purpose under heaven. Time is a big part of our inheritance. It's one of the talents that we've been given in the parable of the talents.
Thanks, Martin. I'll have to take this one step at a time--the first 'communion.'
14And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.
15And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus.
16And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.
17And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale.
18And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
19And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
21And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself.
22And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,
23That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:
24Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.
--Gen 14
Strange sentence structure:
Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
It almost sounds as if he's calling Abram possessor of heaven and earth....
20And blessed be the most high God,..
Then, Melchizedek blesses God.
:mshock:
7 And without question, the person who has the power to give a blessing is greater than the one who is blessed.
--Hebrews 7 :mshock:
1FOR THIS Melchizedek, king of Salem [and] priest of the Most High God, met Abraham as he returned from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,
2And Abraham gave to him a tenth portion of all [the spoil]. He is primarily, as his name when translated indicates, king of righteousness, and then he is also king of Salem, which means king of peace.
3Without [record of] father or mother or ancestral line, neither with beginning of days nor ending of life, but, resembling the Son of God, he continues to be a priest without interruption and without successor.
4Now observe and consider how great [a personage] this was to whom even Abraham the patriarch gave a tenth [the topmost or the pick of the heap] of the spoils.
5And it is true that those descendants of Levi who are charged with the priestly office are commanded in the Law to take tithes from the people--which means, from their brethren--though these have descended from Abraham.
6But this person who has not their Levitical ancestry received tithes from Abraham [himself] and blessed him who possessed the promises [of God].
7Yet it is beyond all contradiction that it is the lesser person who is blessed by the greater one.
8Furthermore, here [in the Levitical priesthood] tithes are received by men who are subject to death; while there [in the case of Melchizedek], they are received by one of whom it is testified that he lives [perpetually].
9A person might even say that Levi [the father of the priestly tribe] himself, who received tithes (the tenth), paid tithes through Abraham,
10For he was still in the loins of his forefather [Abraham] when Melchizedek met him [Abraham].
11Now if perfection (a perfect fellowship between God and the worshiper) had been attainable by the Levitical priesthood--for under it the people were given the Law--why was it further necessary that there should arise another and different kind of Priest, one after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one appointed after the order and rank of Aaron?
12For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is of necessity an alteration of the law [concerning the priesthood] as well.
13For the One of Whom these things are said belonged [not to the priestly line but] to another tribe, no member of which has officiated at the altar.
14For it is obvious that our Lord sprang from the tribe of Judah, and Moses mentioned nothing about priests in connection with that tribe.
15And this becomes more plainly evident when another Priest arises Who bears the likeness of Melchizedek,
16Who has been constituted a Priest, not on the basis of a bodily legal requirement [an externally imposed command concerning His physical ancestry], but on the basis of the power of an endless and indestructible Life.
17For it is witnessed of Him, You are a Priest forever after the order (with the rank) of Melchizedek.
18So a previous physical regulation and command is cancelled because of its weakness and ineffectiveness and uselessness--
19For the Law never made anything perfect--but instead a better hope is introduced through which we [now] come close to God.
20And it was not without the taking of an oath [that Christ was made Priest],
21For those who formerly became priests received their office without its being confirmed by the taking of an oath by God, but this One was designated and addressed and saluted with an oath, The Lord has sworn and will not regret it or change His mind, You are a Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.
22In keeping with [the oath's greater strength and force], Jesus has become the Guarantee of a better (stronger) agreement [a more excellent and more advantageous covenant].
23[Again, the former successive line of priests] was made up of many, because they were each prevented by death from continuing [perpetually in office];
24But He holds His priesthood unchangeably, because He lives on forever.
25Therefore He is able also to save to the uttermost (completely, perfectly, finally, and for all time and eternity) those who come to God through Him, since He is always living to make petition to God and intercede with Him and intervene for them.
26[Here is] the High Priest [perfectly adapted] to our needs, as was fitting--holy, blameless, unstained by sin, separated from sinners, and exalted higher than the heavens.
27He has no day by day necessity, as [do each of these other] high priests, to offer sacrifice first of all for his own [personal] sins and then for those of the people, because He [met all the requirements] once for all when He brought Himself [as a sacrifice] which He offered up.
28For the Law sets up men in their weakness [frail, sinful, dying human beings] as high priests, but the word of [God's] oath, which [was spoken later] after the institution of the Law, [chooses and appoints as priest One Whose appointment is complete and permanent], a Son Who has been made perfect forever.
--Hebrews 7
John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Abraham is the possessor of heaven and earth. And we're blessed with faithful Abraham, according to Galatians 3, so we sit with Christ in heavenly places. God was both making Abraham heir of heaven and earth out of His own relationship with Abraham, and He was establishing the lineage of the prophets for them to be able to call things that be not as though they were. God was yanking away from the devil by promise, what the devil had stolen from Adam in the Garden of Eden by being a fast talkin' con. I won't get another UFO thread started, but when He was telling Abraham that his seed would be as the stars of heaven, this Melchizedec Blessing seems to take any sense of symbolism out of the comment.
He's been promising us the heavens and the earth every step of the way, according to Psalm 8, other passages, and questionable noncanonical texts that for whatever flaws they have will still draw attention to this level of Blessing, authority, and inheritance. It's the same Blessing that He spoke over Adam and Eve being respoken every step along the way so that it reaches the Last Adam, all of us, and it's consummation in the purposes of God that span all of the ages. Because it's the same Word of the Blessing that became flesh, dwelt among us, and bruised the headship of the Adversary.
Whether we're talking life forms present or past in God's Creation, or life forms yet to be Created, all things are ours because of this Blessing so that we'd become the Blessing and benefit to all of them. All the New Covenant is, is the Abrahamic Covenant with the Mosaic Law having been fulfilled, sin and sacrifices having been taken away, and our having already been redeemed from the curse, according to Galatians 3. And then as I was saying, the dominion over time so that we are the Blessing to all of the families of the earth in turning them away from their sins and building them up in their inheritance, according to the book of Acts.
1O YOU poor and silly and thoughtless and unreflecting and senseless Galatians! Who has fascinated or bewitched or cast a spell over you, unto whom--right before your very eyes--Jesus Christ (the Messiah) was openly and graphically set forth and portrayed as crucified?
2Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the [Holy] Spirit as the result of obeying the Law and doing its works, or was it by hearing [the message of the Gospel] and believing [it]? [Was it from observing a law of rituals or from a message of faith?]
3Are you so foolish and so senseless and so silly? Having begun [your new life spiritually] with the [Holy] Spirit, are you now reaching perfection [by dependence] on the flesh?
4Have you suffered so many things and experienced so much all for nothing (to no purpose)--if it really is to no purpose and in vain?
5Then does He Who supplies you with His marvelous [Holy] Spirit and works powerfully and miraculously among you do so on [the grounds of your doing] what the Law demands, or because of your believing in and adhering to and trusting in and relying on the message that you heard?
6Thus Abraham believed in and adhered to and trusted in and relied on God, and it was reckoned and placed to his account and credited as righteousness (as conformity to the divine will in purpose, thought, and action).
7Know and understand that it is [really] the people [who live] by faith who are [the true] sons of Abraham.
8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify (declare righteous, put in right standing with Himself) the Gentiles in consequence of faith, proclaimed the Gospel [foretelling the glad tidings of a Savior long beforehand] to Abraham in the promise, saying, In you shall all the nations [of the earth] be blessed.
9So then, those who are people of faith are blessed and made happy and favored by God [as partners in fellowship] with the believing and trusting Abraham.
10And all who depend on the Law [who are seeking to be justified by obedience to the Law of rituals] are under a curse and doomed to disappointment and destruction, for it is written in the Scriptures, Cursed (accursed, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment) be everyone who does not continue to abide (live and remain) by all the precepts and commands written in the Book of the Law and to practice them.
11Now it is evident that no person is justified (declared righteous and brought into right standing with God) through the Law, for the Scripture says, The man in right standing with God [the just, the righteous] shall live by and out of faith and he who through and by faith is declared righteous and in right standing with God shall live.
12But the Law does not rest on faith [does not require faith, has nothing to do with faith], for it itself says, He who does them [the things prescribed by the Law] shall live by them [not by faith].(E)
13Christ purchased our freedom [redeeming us] from the curse (doom) of the Law [and its condemnation] by [Himself] becoming a curse for us, for it is written [in the Scriptures], Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree (is crucified);
14To the end that through [their receiving] Christ Jesus, the blessing [promised] to Abraham might come upon the Gentiles, so that we through faith might [all] receive [the realization of] the promise of the [Holy] Spirit.
15To speak in terms of human relations, brethren, [if] even a man makes a last will and testament (a merely human covenant), no one sets it aside or makes it void or adds to it when once it has been drawn up and signed (ratified, confirmed).
16Now the promises (covenants, agreements) were decreed and made to Abraham and his Seed (his Offspring, his Heir). He [God] does not say, And to seeds (descendants, heirs), as if referring to many persons, but, And to your Seed (your Descendant, your Heir), obviously referring to one individual, Who is [none other than] Christ (the Messiah).
17This is my argument: The Law, which began 430 years after the covenant [concerning the coming Messiah], does not and cannot annul the covenant previously established (ratified) by God, so as to abolish the promise and make it void.
18For if the inheritance [of the promise depends on observing] the Law [as these false teachers would like you to believe], it no longer [depends] on the promise; however, God gave it to Abraham [as a free gift solely] by virtue of His promise.
19What then was the purpose of the Law? It was added [later on, after the promise, to disclose and expose to men their guilt] because of transgressions and [to make men more conscious of the sinfulness] of sin; and it was intended to be in effect until the Seed (the Descendant, the Heir) should come, to and concerning Whom the promise had been made. And it [the Law] was arranged and ordained and appointed through the instrumentality of angels [and was given] by the hand (in the person) of a go-between [Moses, an intermediary person between God and man].
20Now a go-between (intermediary) has to do with and implies more than one party [there can be no mediator with just one person]. Yet God is [only] one Person [and He was the sole party in giving that promise to Abraham. But the Law was a contract between two, God and Israel; its validity was dependent on both].
21Is the Law then contrary and opposed to the promises of God? Of course not! For if a Law had been given which could confer [spiritual] life, then righteousness and right standing with God would certainly have come by Law.
22But the Scriptures [picture all mankind as sinners] shut up and imprisoned by sin, so that [the inheritance, blessing] which was promised through faith in Jesus Christ (the Messiah) might be given (released, delivered, and committed) to [all] those who believe [who adhere to and trust in and rely on Him].
23Now before the faith came, we were perpetually guarded under the Law, kept in custody in preparation for the faith that was destined to be revealed (unveiled, disclosed),
24So that the Law served [a][to us Jews] as our trainer [our guardian, our guide to Christ, to lead us] until Christ [came], that we might be justified (declared righteous, put in right standing with God) by and through faith.
25But now that the faith has come, we are no longer under a trainer (the guardian of our childhood).
26For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith.
27For as many [of you] as were baptized into Christ [into a spiritual union and communion with Christ, the Anointed One, the Messiah] have put on (clothed yourselves with) Christ.
28There is [now no distinction] neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if you belong to Christ [are in Him Who is Abraham's Seed], then you are Abraham's offspring and [spiritual] heirs according to promise.
--Galatians 3
wow. The promise came before the law--therefore it is the better covenant, superceding the law. :mshock:
This promise to Abraham IS the law--the greater covenant-- which Jesus fulfills. :mshock:
1O LORD, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
2Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
3When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
4What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
7All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
8The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.
9O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!
--Psalm 8
12For now we are looking in a mirror that gives only a dim (blurred) reflection [of reality as in a riddle or enigma], but then [when perfection comes] we shall see in reality and face to face! Now I know in part (imperfectly), but then I shall know and understand fully and clearly, even in the same manner as I have been fully and clearly known and understood [by God].
--1Cor 13
Quote from: Molly on September 16, 2008, 09:31:13 AM
1O YOU poor and silly and thoughtless and unreflecting and senseless Galatians!
It's odd how I'd have to ban someone from the forum for using the same language on this forum about one or more of it's members if the occasion ever came up, yet St. Paul goes further a chapter or two later and saying "if a little cutting is profitable to the soul, JUST WACK IT OFF COMPLETELY AND REALLY SECURE YOUR NAME BEING IN HEBREWS 11!!" :icon_jokercolor: :dontknow:
But, because of how discussion boards are put together, what their intent is, and what's most fruitful about their existance, it must also be remembered that St. Paul WOULDN'T HAVE DARED to have SCREAMED such things on Mars Hill or in a follow-up letter to them :laughing7:
There has always only been ONE covenant. :banging head:
:mshock:
So until Jesus fulfilled the everlasting covenant with Abraham, we couldn't be close to God because we were shut up under the law.
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
--Hebrews 12
16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
--Hebrews 4
"new" [covenant]
G3501
νέος, νεώτερος
neos neōteros
neh'-os, neh-o'-ter-os
A primary word, including the comparative (second form); "new", that is, (of persons) youthful, or (of things) fresh; figuratively regenerate: - new, young.
OK, I think I'm starting to understand how communion, the cup and bread showing his death [and our death in him]--kicks us into timelessness, because we have already died [with him,] and therefore we have perpetual youth and are (regenerate, fresh, alive) in Christ, the living God, allowing us to come into perfection through relationship with him in the life of the Spirit.
John 6:56
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
--Hebrews 10
But, is this symbolic? Or are we literally changing physically into his flesh--like Roy says, a body you have prepared for me...
In reading other threads, along with this one, it appears that there are so many different opinons on every little Word written in Scripture. There are so many different translations, there are so many different attitudes and conclusions. If ever there was a true mystery, it, to me, would be this . . . how is it that if we are all walking in the same spirit, we can never come to understand Truth as "one" body? It's almost like, because my perception is different, I then, exercise my right to reject others opinions.
A comment was made that it's not about right and wrong, but what is correct and what isn't . . .even THAT doesn't make sense to be because it appears to be saying the same thing.
What if, we've misunderstood our own responsibilities? In one passage, we're told to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling . . .yet in other passages, people often seem to become aggressive in their "corrections" with another because they feel Scripture supports the idea that I'm to police everyone else on their beliefs.
It just seems that there are some who are quick to "correct" others in their understanding, are the same that rebuke another when they themselves come under a correction . . .and in the end, it becomes either a division, an offense, or worse.
Some of these discussions are really rewarding . . . some are frustrating as we beat our heads against each other as we admit our understanding is finite . . . it's limited, but if we really believe that, then how is it that there is so much sparring going on over word definitions and translations?
To me, this is really the reason why I stated that the Bible we have is not the inspired word of God . . .it's merely a translation of it. I have been hit from many different angles against this thought . . not just on the forum, but from other pastors and people. But the more I read from some of your comments . . like the information that Martin puts out about some of the history of what all transpired when the cannon was beginning to take form and how much that was actually translated also was influenced by the biasness of the translators . . .it only reinforces this idea that no matter which Bible I read from . . .currently, the Message Translation is a favorite . .but terrible when doing word studies . .but no matter what Bible I read, it's a translation of the original.
And . . .say we all learned Greek and Hebrew and had the original writings in front of us . . .even this . to me . . .would not guarantee our rightness of things. The Pharisees and Saducees were the most knowledgable men on the earth. The are of one of the elite few that actually did have the original texts . . . and where did it get them? They took that which was to reveal light and truth, and became worse off than those who had no knowledge at all.
I would much rather teach an individual with absolutely no background of religion about the things of the kingdom, than someone who just came through 8 years of college or 20 years of church. Religion blinds us from truth . . . we tend to put ourselves (me included) on pedestals with our knowledge and we love to spar with others so as to show off how much we know about things. If we are truly concerned about the wellbeing of another, then why the stinging rebukes when our words are put into question?
My personal opinion as to why there are so many translations is the same as why there are so many denominations. Even when the King James is the most accepted translation, there are still clashing contrasts between the conclusions of one group against another. And again, to me, it boils down to the Spirit. You can't mix spirit with carnality. You can't explain spiritual truth through natural reasoning.
The kingdom of God does not come through observation, it's within every one of us. It manifests differently in every one of us. And it's purpose is not to bring correctness or rightness. It's purpose . .to me . .is to bring freedom and liberty.
Here are two truths . . .
No matter how accurate your translation is, you could still be blind to what Truth is all about.
and second . .
No matter how "inaccurate" your translation is, Truth can always be seen.
It's not the translation that reveals Truth . .it's the Spirit that inspired it in the first place.
Jesus said his words are "spirit" and life. Life is encouragement, it is optimistic, it is blind to failures and splitting hairs . . . Truth is not cold and hard as stone. It's not unbending. It can very much be illogical. And I also believe it's something to be accepted in faith and not intended to be grasped, controlled, and broken down with human reasoning. It's not knowledge that pleases God . . it's faith. Sure, knowledge plays a role. But what good is knowledge if all I do is use it as a weapon rather than an instrument of worship.
Adam and Eve desired after and acheived knowledge, but all it did for them was reveal their nakedness. Many of our discussions seem to be an attempt to simply uncover, or reveal the nakedness of each other. How does this bring glory? How does this build up the body? Edify one another? What actual good does the Bible have if all I use it for is to tell you how "incorrect" you are?
My knowledge on perpetual motion is limited. But my desire to set the captives free is limitless. The only way I can pursue this is by walking in spiritual truth rather than natural reasoning.
Just a thought is all. Nothing more.
Quotehow is it that if we are all walking in the same spirit, we can never come to understand Truth as "one" body? It's almost like, because my perception is different, I then, exercise my right to reject others opinions.
I think it is because it is the 'living' word. Thus, if you spend a lot of time in the Bible, it is like sitting down with Jesus and having a discussion--but only at the level that you are currently at. So, like you would have a different conversation with a CEO than with a housewife (both of whom have very pressing, but different, problems) or with a ten year old boy and an 85 year old woman (who are at different stages of life), it looks different to people who are at different places in their lives. That's why it often does not work to try to force your views on others, even though we all do it. It's a blessing when we can share what we see with others.
So, if he's bringing us all to perfection within relationship to him--in his own timing--then all that is important is the relationship with him. The real tragedy is those who have no relationship with Christ, but with a pastor who is just serving his own ends of wealth, power, or popularity, or a church that is not about freedom but about control--which is where I think many Christians find themselves.
Absolutely Molly, we are all living toward the same goal, to achieve the same prize, but we are all at different places in our relationships. You can't ask an infant to eat a pickle and you don't expect an adult to eat strained carrots. And in the same light, the adult shouldn't rebuke the child for being a child. You ever go to a senior citizens center with a child? That one child lights up the whole place. There's something about the innocense of a child that sparks life into an adult.
Having twin sons that are 3 1/2, nothing brings life to our house more than when one makes the other go into a belly laugh . .they find the strangest things to amuse them and it's usually involving destruction of something . .but when they get into the laughter mode, it's contagious.
I would think this is the same spiritually. The youth of one should bring life to another. A part of that would be accepting what you're inferring Molly, to realize that you see what you do because that's where you are in God. I can share with you what I see and if you don't see it . .that's perfectly OK. And if you do . .all the better. But not one of us is in the exact same place in Christ as the other. But yet we are of the same body.
Quote from: NathanBut not one of us is in the exact same place in Christ as the other. But yet we are of the same body.
:icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
:goodpost: Molly!
:goodpost: Nathan!
:goodpost: Taffy!
Regardless of the translations we use or teachings that we've acquired, it seems to me that, the Spirit of Truth is able to teach our hearts and minds in the language of love!
The secrets of the Kingdom that Jesus talked about are hidden for a reason
we dig, we sell all that we have, we search, we knock.....
and with the Helper/Comforter/Teacher....
we find!
Joyce :)
:dsunny:
Not much impute to this thread on my part here because most everything has been covered in all the responces from others,
I would like to say that all the various viewpoints posted are coming from the same spirit at individual levels of maturity.
This reminds me of an old saying that has helped me when preplexed and that is that it is better to stand devided in the truth than to stand united in error.
It appears from what I have received about Babylon is that there is an outward form
of unity on the surface, the flesh, but inwardly, the spiritual, mass confusion because of placing theself or other mens leading in the place of God given revelation.
this appears to me to be why the exhortations were given to beware of the leven of the Pharisies
and not Just jewish pharisies but also Christian, Islamic, Jewish or better put yet just plain Religious Pharisies no matter what brand of Religion they name and claim to follow, just as a theocricy is a theocricy no matter of what religion it wields this false spiritual authority from where men sometimes unknowingly though often times knowingly place themselves up as mediator between man and God while scripture tells us there is but ONE MEDIATOR between man and God and that is the man Christ Jesus which we know no more after the flesh but in spirit that is now being poured out upon all flesh, this may cause the spirit of the pharisee to burn in trying usurp the authority or to keep on with holding authority over others for their own short lived profits but as scripture tells us Babylon it is fallen ( and to us now is still falling), thankful all glory goes to God.
Fire Walker
Quote from: fire walker on September 17, 2008, 10:22:09 PM
Not much impute to this thread on my part here because most everything has been covered in all the responces from others,
I would like to say that all the various viewpoints posted are coming from the same spirit at individual levels of maturity.
This reminds me of an old saying that has helped me when preplexed and that is that it is better to stand devided in the truth than to stand united in error.
It appears from what I have received about Babylon is that there is an outward form
of unity on the surface, the flesh, but inwardly, the spiritual, mass confusion because of placing theself or other mens leading in the place of God given revelation.
this sems to be why the exhortations were given to beware of the leven of the Pharisies
and not just jewish pharisies but also Christian, Islamic and Jewish Pharisies where men sometimes unknowingly though sometimes knowingly place themselves up as mediator between man and God while scripture tells us there is but ONE MEDIATOR between man and God and that is the man Christ Jesus which we know no more after the flesh but in spirit that is now being poured out upon all flesh, this may cause pharisies to burn as they try to keep on with holding authority over others but as scripture tells us Babylon it is fallen, thankful all glory goes to God.
Fire Walker
It should be observed that all Pharisees either place themselves between man and God or consider themselves, as in certain religions, Christ himself.
Matthew 16:6
Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees."Pharisees"G5330
Φαρισαῖος
Pharisaiosfar-is-ah'-yos
Of Hebrew origin (compare [H6567]);
a separatist, that is, exclusively religious; a Pharisaean, that is, Jewish sectary: - Pharisee.
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Quote from: Molly on September 17, 2008, 10:34:19 PM
Quote from: fire walker on September 17, 2008, 10:22:09 PM
Not much impute to this thread on my part here because most everything has been covered in all the responces from others,
I would like to say that all the various viewpoints posted are coming from the same spirit at individual levels of maturity.
This reminds me of an old saying that has helped me when preplexed and that is that it is better to stand devided in the truth than to stand united in error.
It appears from what I have received about Babylon is that there is an outward form
of unity on the surface, the flesh, but inwardly, the spiritual, mass confusion because of placing theself or other mens leading in the place of God given revelation.
this sems to be why the exhortations were given to beware of the leven of the Pharisies
and not just jewish pharisies but also Christian, Islamic and Jewish Pharisies where men sometimes unknowingly though sometimes knowingly place themselves up as mediator between man and God while scripture tells us there is but ONE MEDIATOR between man and God and that is the man Christ Jesus which we know no more after the flesh but in spirit that is now being poured out upon all flesh, this may cause pharisies to burn as they try to keep on with holding authority over others but as scripture tells us Babylon it is fallen, thankful all glory goes to God.
Fire Walker
It should be observed that all Pharisees either place themselves between man and God or consider themselves, as in certain religions, Christ himself.
Matthew 16:6
Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
"Pharisees"
G5330
Φαρισαῖος
Pharisaios
far-is-ah'-yos
Of Hebrew origin (compare [H6567]); a separatist, that is, exclusively religious; a Pharisaean, that is, Jewish sectary: - Pharisee.
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Molly,
the message you deliver shines as a light to the point of my post, this placing of someone in authority over others as a mediator between man and God is one of the deceptive means employed by mystery Babylon to hold all who they might
in bondage to the darkness of mens traditions, doctrines and ceremonial religion, the futher one has been sold into Babylon the more the punishment or suffering there is in coming out, unlearning
what has been built on the sand is labor, this is a very hurtful thing, especially for those who have used their false spiritual authority over others for personal gain. Eventualy they also come to the wedding feast as Martin pointed out, even though as by fire, we all pass through the fires some appear to linger longer in these things than others on this side of time under the sun and from what I see this is all things in Gods time and not ours, every man in his own order, we can't change that, speed it up or slow it down because we are his workmanship and not our own. The labor pains of the spiritual birth is much greater for some than others it appears.
Fire Walker
Revelation 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
12000 furlongs = 2200 km or 1377 mile.
AFAIK gravitational forces will force everything larger than a few hundred miles into a sphere.
That would indicate absence of gravitation.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Death and hunger are a form of decay. That would indicate the absence of the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Sun and stars can't burn if there isn't a 2nd law of thermodynamics anymore.
Not even a candle is needed indicating there there are no shadows. But that's against the law of electromagnetism.
So basicly New Jerusalem is only possible without the laws of electromagnetism, gravity and thermodynamics.
I know many of you don't see the verses as a literal city coming down from heaven. I have no problem with that; but I think the verses literal or not have a 'hidden' message about the state of the universe and everything in it.
Inside the city there is light everywhere. But outside the city there is no sun/stars. I can't find the verse, as usual, that reads something like 'cast into utter darkness'. Indeed there would be utter darkness outside the city. Not even fire to give light because that's based on decay/thermodynamics.
Without gravity it's no longer possible to walk etc.
Is teh human body completly changed? Are we spirits?
The laws of physics could still be there and the city simply be upheld by the Word of God, like everything else. The reason for no hunger is because the last couple of chapters of Revelation say that the trees will produce 12 crops of fruit every month. To get a plant to be that fruitful, you're talking about no more carbon-14 and possibly the elimination of ultra violet light as well. Isn't 12 crops of fruit every month a fresh crop about every two and a half days?
The sun, moon, stars, and planets will likely still be there because the last couple of chapters talk about outsiders that'll bring their glory and honor into it and the Spirit and Bride bidding people to come and take of the water of life freely. Outside of the city are some pretty shady characters, according to Revelation 22, so for their benefit and to avoid killing them the way that the ark killed someone in the Old Testament that tried to steady it, the glory of God will likely not extend very far beyond the city although I know that's absolute heresy for the traditional views of the New Earth.
I know that some [without many experiences with the glory of God in Pentecostal settings] would wonder about whether the glory of God [turned up full blast] would still do that to a sinner that touched it (or that level of it) since we're no longer under the ministry of condemnation, but think of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5. Peter's body, in that one chapter in Acts, is a good foreshadowing of how intense the power of God can be on that future city to where people even getting within the distance of him of his shadow were being healed. It's not that God did anything to slap Ananias and Sapphira. That's just simply how pure that He is and His purity is deeply corrosive to any sin being in His Presence. So, the Blood of Jesus had to become our righteousness. But that's not yet the case for those that haven't embraced Him.
We've got examples in North America, Europe, and Asia that cities can get very, very, very big. Just think of one of those modern super cities without sin, without curse, and without religiosity. The prosperity and peace would be almost more than you could stand, if there were a place like that today that you could run to! You said that there would be no electromagnetism. Yet a city that's that big that's emitting that much light and sound, and that has that many transparent metals and jewels would have to be emitting electromagnetism and light on every conceivable spectrum that you could think of as light and sound would pass through that metal and all of those gems. The whole place would have to be behaving like a strobe light. And without electromagnetism you can't have the plants working or any mortals on the planet. What you've probably got is all of the forces of nature being brought to their proper levels so that everything's functioning at the right frequency and everything is complimenting everything else rather than chipping away at everything else as we have in the current eon of imbalance.
Christians within the city will likely be immortals, but that's not 100% certain although that's inferred by many of our theologies with the idea that the immortality of Christians happens before or at the same time as the wicked are being judged by the Lake of Fire judgment. I have no problems with the whole planet having nothing but immortals on it at that time because Jesus found a use for food after His resurrection. But I see hints of mortals still being on the planet at that time, and possibly even coming to the planet from elsewhere. I'm starting to see the New Earth more and more as coming out of the fire in the way that this earth with all of it's corruption came out of Noah's Flood. So, in my understanding of that, I'm not needing for absolute immortality to have already overtaken all Christians by that time period. Again, that messes with everybody's theology, but there's already general agreement between many of us at these boards that there are details in 1Corinthians 15 that aren't necessarily fulfilled in their entirety until long ages into the New Earth.
I'm seriously starting to question whether anyone is immortal on the New Earth besides Christ Jesus. The word "immortality" is conspicuously missing for me in Revelation 20 when the resurrection of the just and unjust is taking place. It's not even fully implied by Romans 8, although some might choke on that until they've had another thorough look at that chapter. Totally kick out the curse and we're at least no longer dealing with the type of mortality that we're dealing with right now. There being no more death to me doesn't necessarily imply nobody dying in the way that people die today. Although I don't believe that anyone or that very many in that day would die from any type of diseases or accidents because the greatest possible healthcare will exist in that day. Death for me in that chapter that you've quoted could easily mean first death and second death; no more mass floods and no more mass cremations; no more Noah's Floods and no more Lakes of Fire.
Just simply getting to where Christ Jesus is physically among us again and to where every single need is met and there's more righteousness on the planet than sin is much more than enough to be content about, if I turned out to be right about that. But total immortality for everyone could still wind up being a few ages beyond that. There's a passage in Isaiah that promises that with the New Earth that the lifespans of people will be the same lifespans that trees have. Trees can live to 8,000 or 10,000 years old. The oldest trees were thought to be close to 5,000 years old, but they've been finding older in recent years that they're shy about telling anyone where they're at for obvious reasons of safety for those trees. Who wouldn't be tempted to have furniture that's older than recorded history?
OOOOOOORRRR . . . .
The earth is restored to it's original state before the fall as it was in the garden and spirit becomes dominant over physical. The New Jerusalem . .it's you. Remember when Paul said we are "grafted in". Spiritually, we are all Jews with renewed minds . . .which makes up a "new" Jerusalem.
12,000 from every tribe . . . in God's pattern, when things are multiplied the number of themselves, it's speaking of entirety and completeness. Remember the Scripture that states that the Holy Spirit was given as "earnest"? A portion of the whole . . .a downpayment . . .it's just a fraction.
How many people were in the upper room when the Holy Spirit was poured out? Why do you suppose it was important that we needed to know it was 120? Unless God has a deeper message there . . .one that is connected to "tithe" of 12,000 maybe? I mean if you think about it . . .if you did this with the US and said we're going to require 12,000 people from each state. . .that wouldn't be an honest assessment because each state is of a different size. You want to take the population in Texas and take the same number from Vermont?
This again, is Jesus establishing a new government in his kingdom. (12, the number for government). And Scripture states that this "kingdom" does not come by observation, it is "within you." You are the New Jerusalem . . .you are a gate of pearl . . .you are used to usher others into the kingdom of Christ. The Sabbath. Not about mental labor, all about spiritual rest.
Quote from: martincisneros on December 04, 2008, 08:09:02 PM
The laws of physics could still be there and the city simply be upheld by the Word of God, like everything else.
Sure. God has the power to do that. No arguing about that. I can't really explain why but I think God doesn't work that way.
Current physics either are present in the whole universe/creation or not at all.
QuoteThe reason for no hunger is because the last couple of chapters of Revelation say that the trees will produce 12 crops of fruit every month. To get a plant to be that fruitful, you're talking about no more carbon-14 and possibly the elimination of ultra violet light as well. Isn't 12 crops of fruit every month a fresh crop about every two and a half days?
That still means people get hungry. Because of the harvests there is no starvation.
If there is no sun the UV will be gone too. That's very unlikely because UV is destructive light. And because the light is so special (Jesus) there is nothing destructive in it. IMO...
Without carbon-14 how can something grow? But we at least seem to agree that nature is changed in a big way. (?)
QuoteThe sun, moon, stars, and planets will likely still be there because the last couple of chapters talk about outsiders that'll bring their glory and honor into it and the Spirit and Bride bidding people to come and take of the water of life freely.
Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
To me personally the above two verses and the ones in my first post show that 'the sky' changes in a big way.
QuoteOutside of the city are some pretty shady characters, according to Revelation 22, so for their benefit and to avoid killing them the way that the ark killed someone in the Old Testament that tried to steady it, the glory of God will likely not extend very far beyond the city although I know that's absolute heresy for the traditional views of the New Earth.
I don't care and would like to know more details on how you think about that.
Can the shady characters go into range of Gods glory and be saved?
It almost sounds like God glory is local. Isn't God just everywhere?
QuoteI know that some [without many experiences with the glory of God in Pentecostal settings] would wonder about whether the glory of God [turned up full blast] would still do that to a sinner that touched it (or that level of it) since we're no longer under the ministry of condemnation, but think of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5. Peter's body, in that one chapter in Acts, is a good foreshadowing of how intense the power of God can be on that future city to where people even getting within the distance of him of his shadow were being healed. It's not that God did anything to slap Ananias and Sapphira. That's just simply how pure that He is and His purity is deeply corrosive to any sin being in His Presence. So, the Blood of Jesus had to become our righteousness. But that's not yet the case for those that haven't embraced Him.
I think this partly answers my question just above. New Jerusalem is during the reign of Jesus, right?
So eventually everyone steps into the light, gets cured from sin and is 'under His feet'.
Is that how I should read it?
QuoteWe've got examples in North America, Europe, and Asia that cities can get very, very, very big.
True. Just ignoring oceans/food/etc even now it's possible to build a city the size of the earth. But the height of the city is a major problem. Besides of graviation it would reach far beyond wher there is air to breath. If you say 'God proves' then the argument just stops :laughing7:
QuoteYou said that there would be no electromagnetism. Yet a city that's that big that's emitting that much light and sound, and that has that many transparent metals and jewels would have to be emitting electromagnetism and light on every conceivable spectrum that you could think of as light and sound would pass through that metal and all of those gems. The whole place would have to be behaving like a strobe light. And without electromagnetism you can't have the plants working or any mortals on the planet. What you've probably got is all of the forces of nature being brought to their proper levels so that everything's functioning at the right frequency and everything is complimenting everything else rather than chipping away at everything else as we have in the current eon of imbalance.
Doesn't electromagnetism mean there is always light, dark, shadow? But the city is 100% filled with light. So no magnetism. You are right that without electromagnetism thing can't 'work'.
I totally agree with that. From that I conclude God changed/removed the laws of physics as we know them right now.
How they become I don't know. I read those verses as giving hints the laws will change. You don't that's clear.
If things grow and be eat them they digest and that's decay. But we personally don't decay (=get older) so at least part of creation knows no more decay. Surely God can repair the decay in our bodies every second. No arguing about that.But I simply feel it doesn't work that way beacuse God created the laws of nature and troughout the Bible He never suspended/bent them. Surely He could have but didn't.
QuoteChristians within the city will likely be immortals,
If they need the harvest of those tree you mentioned they aren't immoratal. If they stop eating they get hungry and eventually die....?
Quotebut that's not 100% certain although that's inferred by many of our theologies with the idea that the immortality of Christians happens before or at the same time as the wicked are being judged by the Lake of Fire judgment.
Is that LoF just everything outside the city?
Or is it something like Sdom and Gommorah? Can't find it right now but there is a verse that seems to say there will be a worldwide 'rain of fire and brimstone like Sodom and Gommorah'
QuoteI'm seriously starting to question whether anyone is immortal on the New Earth besides Christ Jesus. The word "immortality" is conspicuously missing for me in Revelation 20 when the resurrection of the just and unjust is taking place.
As I wrote; if you need to eat you aren't immortal. The ones outside teh city are evil. So there will still be killing going on.
QuoteAlthough I don't believe that anyone or that very many in that day would die from any type of diseases or accidents because the greatest possible healthcare will exist in that day.
I think it isn't possible to get sick because illness is always pain and sorrow. A broken leg isn't deadly but it gives tears that are wiped away...
Quote from: Nathan on December 04, 2008, 08:55:58 PM
OOOOOOORRRR . . . .
The earth is restored to it's original state before the fall as it was in the garden and spirit becomes dominant over physical. The New Jerusalem . .it's you. Remember when Paul said we are "grafted in". Spiritually, we are all Jews with renewed minds . . .which makes up a "new" Jerusalem.
12,000 from every tribe . . . in God's pattern, when things are multiplied the number of themselves, it's speaking of entirety and completeness. Remember the Scripture that states that the Holy Spirit was given as "earnest"? A portion of the whole . . .a downpayment . . .it's just a fraction.
How many people were in the upper room when the Holy Spirit was poured out? Why do you suppose it was important that we needed to know it was 120? Unless God has a deeper message there . . .one that is connected to "tithe" of 12,000 maybe? I mean if you think about it . . .if you did this with the US and said we're going to require 12,000 people from each state. . .that wouldn't be an honest assessment because each state is of a different size. You want to take the population in Texas and take the same number from Vermont?
This again, is Jesus establishing a new government in his kingdom. (12, the number for government). And Scripture states that this "kingdom" does not come by observation, it is "within you." You are the New Jerusalem . . .you are a gate of pearl . . .you are used to usher others into the kingdom of Christ. The Sabbath. Not about mental labor, all about spiritual rest.
Sorta Gets me....
All things MADE new In the NEW C.
New Heart, which is NOW, New MiND which IS NOW, new Tongue which was Given at PENTECOST SO ua could say that too is NOW, MADE straight NOT crooked, ..lots of NEW..but NEW JerusalemIS something we WAIT for.....
Nah.ALL THINGS MAde NEW is ""all things MADE NEW"...TIS NOW, as is the Book of Revelation.....
So you KINGS AND PRIESTS in HIM, welcome to NEW JERUSALEM....you are IT.
:icon_flower:
YES AND AMEN !!! THAT is a Truth I want to walk in CONTINUALLY. :dsunny:
We agree AMEN!! :iagree: :angelharp: :2thumbs:
GOD makes it possible NOW!
Quote from: rosered on December 05, 2008, 02:22:14 AM
We agree AMEN!! :iagree: :angelharp: :2thumbs:
GOD makes it possible NOW!
ya Know sis..we Know Christ talked In Parables to the The Multitude..., for mine twas the MOUNTAIN of Sinai, which was the Problem,.that which was the Shadow of the which IS the REALITY...
Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
SEEMS our friend also HAd a problem with the Impossible ..the RICH MAN( of the LAW)
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
GEE ALL THINGS are possible sis..BUT not with MEN( FLESH)
Mar 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men [it is] impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
the problem with the YOUNG pharisee in Math 9..BUT ITS curable
Hbr 11:6
But without faith [it is]
impossible to please [him]: for
he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. :icon_flower:
Quote from: rosered on December 05, 2008, 02:22:14 AM
We agree AMEN!! :iagree: :angelharp: :2thumbs:
GOD makes it possible NOW!
:laughing7: :icon_king:
9 " Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your King is coming to you;
He is just and having salvation,
Lowly and riding on a donkey,
A colt, the foal of a donkey.
--Zech 9
Behold, thy King cometh unto thee;
Quote from: Molly on December 05, 2008, 02:43:07 AM
Quote from: rosered on December 05, 2008, 02:22:14 AM
We agree AMEN!! :iagree: :angelharp: :2thumbs:
GOD makes it possible NOW!
:laughing7: :icon_king:
9 " Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your King is coming to you;
He is just and having salvation,
Lowly and riding on a donkey,
A colt, the foal of a donkey.
--Zech 9
Indeed Molly, He came to CONQUER, but the Soul Of man,..THE truth WHICH would RISE within.as Paul says
Gal 1:16 To
reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
To reveal is to UN VEIL what WAS already there..but hidden...
1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
--2 Peter 1
Quote from: Molly on December 05, 2008, 03:00:58 AM
1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
--2 Peter 1
Yes Molly , the FULNESS of the Reality Born a NEW , The borning of a NEW DAY,x8...The fulness of HIM IN US
Had a post but it ka blewied ! '' poof'' gone :sigh:
hopefully if God be willing it will come back to remember
Loving this spiritual talk !!
Quote from: Taffy on December 05, 2008, 02:31:17 AM
Quote from: rosered on December 05, 2008, 02:22:14 AM
We agree AMEN!! :iagree: :angelharp: :2thumbs:
GOD makes it possible NOW!
ya Know sis..we Know Christ talked In Parables to the The Multitude..., for mine twas the MOUNTAIN of Sinai, which was the Problem,.that which was the Shadow of the which IS the REALITY...
Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
SEEMS our friend also HAd a problem with the Impossible ..the RICH MAN( of the LAW)
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
GEE ALL THINGS are possible sis..BUT not with MEN( FLESH)
Mar 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men [it is] impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
the problem with the YOUNG pharisee in Math 9..BUT ITS curable
Hbr 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
:icon_flower:
Yes Bro !!!
it is in faith of what God through Jesus Christ can do within us , move mountains [kingdoms] the old and the new
I was reading about Lazurus , whom Jesus loved and come to raise him from the dead after 4 days he stunk
Jhn 11:39 Jesus said, Take YOU away'' the stone.'' Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been [dead] four days.
on the 4th day of creation the moon lesser light /knowledge
that turns to blood / violence and is the Law of moses the ministration of death
but the Lord come and rolled the stone / vailed heart away !
and Larurus being resurrected Lives
and become a child of Light / Knowledge of the DAY
i noted that the
days are shortened for the elects sake the works of light are shortened
why days and not the nights ?
so I thought of What Jesus said here Jhn 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me,
while it is day: the night comes,
when no man can work.As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
and here it is !! the answer I was looking for
And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people;
there shall they be called the children of the living God. Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 9:28
For he will finish the work, and cut [it] short in righteousness:
because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
the burnings/Light of Christ/ seed within our hearts within our hearts ! and not the destruction od sodom and gommorah!!
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 You are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
QuoteRevelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
bro the Knowledge /and love of God is the True Light that needs no sun or stars to rule it ! Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the
unity of the faith, and of the
knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit. Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard [it], do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled
with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
Col 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
Col 1:12
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath
translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the
image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Col 1:17
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. I see it now! WOW!
GREAT MESSAGE!!!
Colossians really jumps out here . .that one verse . . .
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
I think this is the difference between those that claim things in Revelation are yet to happen and those that see it's already happened . . . in order to "see" it as finished, we must first see ourselves as "translated into the kingdom". For the kingdom does not come by observation . . but it's WITHIN. Which is how things are to be read . . .FROM WITHIN. In other words . . .the destruction we assume is for the earth . . .FROM WITHIN I'm seeing it as "my" earth. The flesh profiteth nothing . . .dwelling on the literal thinking isn't where the dominion is. It's the stepping stone on the path to the dominion, but it's not the destination where dominion resides.
May the Kingdom COME where God's will IS DONE.
Quote from: Nathan on December 05, 2008, 05:40:19 PM
GREAT MESSAGE!!!
Colossians really jumps out here . .that one verse . . .
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
I think this is the difference between those that claim things in Revelation are yet to happen and those that see it's already happened . . . in order to "see" it as finished, we must first see ourselves as "translated into the kingdom". For the kingdom does not come by observation . . but it's WITHIN. Which is how things are to be read . . .FROM WITHIN. In other words . . .the destruction we assume is for the earth . . .FROM WITHIN I'm seeing it as "my" earth. The flesh profiteth nothing . . .dwelling on the literal thinking isn't where the dominion is. It's the stepping stone on the path to the dominion, but it's not the destination where dominion resides.
May the Kingdom COME where God's will IS DONE.
"hath translated" us into the kingdom
G3179
μεθίστημι, μεθιστάνω
methistēmi methistanō
meth-is'-tay-mee, -is-tan'-o
From G3326 and G2476; (second form used at 1Co_13:2)
to transfer, that is, carry away, depose or (figuratively) exchange, seduce: - put out, remove, translate, turn away.
That's an incredible word. It has the sense of being carried, being passively taken from one place to another, almost like the popular conception of the 'rapture.'
His kingdom is in the place of eternity but it can be entered now.
We enter into eternal life as soon as we believe.
John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
yous on a Roll sis :thumbsup:..Yehaaa!
so many places to take all this,..but in relation
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
The power of Darkness did have it HOUR( time), I see Darkness being in relation to those who dwelt in the Shadow of It , The Ministry of Death
Luk 22:53 When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.
Luk 22:54 Then took they him, and led [him], and brought him into the high priest's house. And Peter followed afar off .
The message of Death was spoke ,as Is the Message Of Hope and LIFE ,Sorta which do you Taste and EAT THEREFOF
Prov 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue:[/u] and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
Is Not the adversary a LIAR and Murderer , could this also be spoke of those who were called the Children of Such
Is there too ,a relation with those who sat In moses seat , preaching Death,holding thePOWER of Darkness?
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Christ having Come to Destroy that power and the Tongue which Spoke it....mmm, Seems the Richman, the pharisee sorta Understood this too
Luke 6:24 Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and COOL MY TONGUE; for I am tormented in THIS FLAME.
Ever Notice Blessing and Cursing come from the same Tongue, this got nothing to do with foul language, its to do with Scripture...one shouldnt be DOUBLE minded speaking Both Law and Grace,..
To speak DEATH is to SPEAK from the GRAVE.....
James 3:6 the tongue is a FIRE, a world of iniquity:
so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire OF HELL. (ya speak from it)
James 3:5 Even so the TONGUE is a little member, and BOASTETH great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
again who was it WHO boasted such GREAT THINGS, ? Again it speaks of those who PREACHED this ministry of DEATH
Rev 3:17 Because thou SAYEST, I am RICH, and INCREASED with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:[/
tThat Tongue needs destruction, a RE-NEWED BY ALL THINGS being MADE NEW...back to New Jerusalem
Isaih 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and EVERY TONGUE THAT SHALL RISE AGAINST THEE IN JUDGEMENT THOU SHALT CONDEMN.[/u] This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is OF ME, saith the LORD.
we need new eyes of Understanding made SINGLE and surely a New Tongue to SPEAK LIFE!
Zech 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have FOUGHT against Jerusalem; Their FLESH shall """consume away"""" WHILE THEY STAND UPON THEIR FEET, :idea: and THEIR EYES SHALL CONSUME AWAY in their holes, and their TONGUE SHALL CONSUMED AWAY IN THEIR MOUTH.
Back to JAMES, sorta tells a different message to me than maybe we were taught....well scipture is LAW vGrace and Truth, should be No surprise really..
James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man,[/u] and able also to bridle the whole body.
Anyways Rosie..wheres Kim, she could speak pages on this subject,,tis her Thang.. :icon_flower:
Hi Nate ,Molly and me ol matey Taff :cloud9: AMEN!! WOWZA :icon_flower:
I felt the Spirit quicken while reading in this whole tread! and I just love that God is doing this !
my first thoughts when reading translated , I thought of Enoch being translated and than Molly puts up the verse that also come to my mind
Hbr 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. SAME WORDS OF LIFE .... metatithēmi !
Wow people....I agree.........we are in the NOW!
Change is in the NOW!
I believe God Puts the New Jerusalem in us NOW! Spiritually!
I believe it is all Spiritual.......another dimension if you wish.....coming down into your re-newed mind! Can you See the day there will be no more crying in your life...even before you die the 2nd death? Can you be so close to God that you have no pain, and only Happiness. I believe that Job did experience that.............and his trouble began when he started "thinking about it" ......like what would He Do IF. I think his fleshly mind started questioning his faith. Whether he would remain faithful to God if he had things bad as the rest of the people or worse! And His FAith Won.
So even then.....be careful of what you wish for.....because it will come True! I made that mistake last year!
It really is a rapturing of your mind. The spirit "snatches up" your attention and you literally do get "carried away" as things begin to flow into, through, and out of you. From your bellies shall flow rivers of LIVING water . .it brings life to others. It's a fire in you that sparks in others and they begin to glow in the same light which consumes carnal thinking as it transforms us into kingdom-thinking people.
There is an underlying secret in our carnal divide between soul and spirit that may be of interest to some . . .it comes from Goliath, who is the epitomy of the carnal mind. We all know the story . . .the rantings, the threats, intimidations . . .every morning (resurrection, rising of the Son) this guy would set the atmosphere for the rest of their day by challenging them to a fight. Golliath convinced the army of Israel to fight on his terms. No one could beat him on his terms . . .but David was on a whole other plain.
And here's a little secret about your carnality . . .there are boundaries within your carnal nature that your ego doesn't want your mind to know about. Imagine this setting actually being what goes on within man's mind.
1 Samuel 17
1Now the Philistines gathered together their armies to battle, and were gathered together at Shochoh, which belongeth to Judah, and pitched between Shochoh and Azekah, in Ephesdammim. 2And Saul and the men of Israel were gathered together, and pitched by the valley of Elah, and set the battle in array against the Philistines. 3And the Philistines stood on a mountain on the one side, and Israel stood on a mountain on the other side: and there was a valley between them.
On one mountain there is flesh, on the other, there is spirit . . .there is a valley inbetween with a stream flowing between the two. There is this constant enmity going on, a battle between soul and spirit. The Goliath in us puts up this front to intimidate us so not to choose to walk in the spirit. But in those verses, there is a huge key that without the leading of the Spirit, the mind would not pick up on . .and that is the place where my flesh is in. I call it M&M . . .because it's really hard to pronounce Ephesdammim. The definition for this word illuminates the fact that there was no way Golliath was ever going to be able to advance on the army of Israel . . .he couldn't cross the stream . . .Ephesdammim literally means . .the edge of blood. There was a blood line there that the carnal adversary could not cross. David saw this through the spirit.
It was in the spirit that the smooth stones were shaped in . .the stream represents the spirit. David crossed it to advance on Golliath, but Golliath could not cross it to advance on David. You're carnality isn't as powerful as it portrays to be. If we can look at it with spiritual eyes, we'd see that it's nothing but a nuisance at best. But when we see it according to it's own standards . . . then we become overwhelmed by the size of the problem and forgets that we have been given power greater than any intimidating adversary, period. Just gotta remember the bloodline.
Amen and amen Nathan.
Martin wrote.....
The book of Revelation is most definitely an order of events coming to our world......
The question is what is 'our world'? I see it as each person. Each person is a world and there are a myriad of worlds within even these worlds.
cp
I wrote a book about the book of revelation, it wasn't easy, though it's not very long. There's two or three things in the book of revelation which serve as locks, hiding some of the vision from us for a time (as it says in Daniel)..
- the book, it seems to me, is both spiritual and literal.. it's simply apocalypse, the collapse of all things false.. things false simply must fall, they cannot endure forever.. Only God, being Perfect and Perfection, endures, has eternal life withinn himself.. the world man makes and has built, from babel tower (Babble On and On Tower) til it grows to fill the earth - Babylon was the first truly monetary kingdom.. in revelation it is a global economy and system. A global system of man/men/mankind, is bound to grow when man is not depending upon his Creator to solve mankind's problems and challenges.. The word used for babylon, when rendered harlot is the greek word "pornos" meaning "to sell" and alas mankind turns to a great seducing spirit of harlotry to sell it tons of products and luxuries, from fine cloths and ointments to the bodies and souls of men (male and female).. Divorced from God, and built upon untruth(s) babylon can only crash.. in one hour she crashes, in one day she burns (ie. fiery judgment/collapse) and great is the hail/debris of her falling.. the merchants who became rich from her will mourn and the kings of the earth who were in bed with her mourn.. With her harlotry and dazzle she led all the world astray, all seven hills/continents.
- the lesson of apocalypse is being deeply engraved on every heart, mind and psyche as to the knowing of good from evil, which is also Life from death, truth from lie. God is life, itself and perfection, when He endowind thinking ability/choice, a whole new world (or tree) of possibilites 'came to be' for to choose anything other than what God chooses is to become the opposite of Life/God/Perfection.. but since He opened that pandora's box and death/nonlife (rather than merely design robots) he built the rescue into all creation "from the foundation"/beginning of the world/creation.. this learning of good from evil, life from death is an unavoidable journey and lesson.. if there are to be rational creatures that is..
:icon_jokercolor:
Hi. I haven't read all the replies so some one may have said the same things and I am not aware of it. New Jerusalem is stated as being the BRIDE. So is the church, meaning believers who are sanctified. The light of that city, which is who we are going to be when "actually spiritually married" but yet on the earth, is Christ and God. Ie.. the light of the world. But that light, the light that will eventually light all men in the world, is the light of the world. The light of the world is the true mature understanding of the way, the truth, and the life that is God, and also the truth about the things of the world that are not "like God" or are not a witness of HIS SPIRIT.
The dwelling place of God and Christ is to be IN MEN in the world, is it not. As one said above, We are to be the temple of God. It also says that whatever defiles the temple of GOD, God will destroy. So, New Jerusalem as said, is a HOLY dwelling where all the houses are the mature body of Christ as His son in the creation. A "plethora" of houses where the spirit within is clean and the outside is also clean by being the nature of the Spirit of GOD. God destroys all things that are in power and reside in HIS Temple as it says in 1 Corinthians 15. The son, or immaturity, rules until all things are put under His feet. IF there are "enemies" to be put under the feet of the SON, then it has to be here in the world because there is no "enemies" in God's Spirit.
God is love. God is Holy. God is life. Therefore, love is holy and is also everything that life is. It is love in you, rising stronger and stronger with the added wisdom of God becoming known to you and becoming your wisdom too, that destroys all the tares in you and eventually in all, sanctifying the temple FROM WITHIN IT. Make the inside clean first, Jesus said, and the outside will automatically follow. God bypasses the flesh body and nature entirely, and the judgment of God's love indwelling causes us to cease to be in enmity with God any longer.
Jesus destroyed the enmity {in his own flesh} and as we become his flesh more and more maturely we also will have the enmity bound and then cast out and we will be one with and as Jesus Christ, the body of God in the creation who puts all other things into living order by PEACE and RIGHTEOUSNESS. The scripture says that this happens by the pouring out of the Spirit of GOD upon the earth from above. Then righteousness will dwell in the fruitful field {earth} and the RESULT of righteousness will be PEACE. So, righteousness IS always only accomplished by God's righteousness IN PEACE. Any ideas men have about establishing righteousness by revolt, or arms, or rebellion etc. are only their own attempts to establish their own ideas of righteousness and have not subjected OURSLEVES to the righteousness that is OF GOD. Without Peace and holiness no one shall see GOD scripture says.
New Jerusalem is the people of GOD as His son in the creation that are holy and in Peace immovable.
God bless, ken
Hello Glenda. I read your note and agree that scripture is about both Spiritual and literal things. This could also be said to be about things God is going to do and does spiritually within the living creatures and people in the creation, and about things that man does physically in the world motivated by the desires of both good and evil desires from WITHIN him. Man uses life from God to bring forth "evil inventions" as the bible calls them. Man and the other living creatures in the creation can only do any works, either good or evil, because they are alive in the world. The works of man through the desires that exist within him {good "and" evil} using the life God gave to the creation as his ability to do any works at all, bring forth physical manifestations {results} of those desires in man. Man does both good and evil things at various times and for various "spiritual" reasons. Anger and envy and so on are also "spiritual" drives in the sense that if one does an autopsy on a dead person they do not find either the desires {lusts} of the flesh nor the desires and life of GOD in the body of the dead person.
God has said as you know I am sure, that He is going to make the INSIDE {spirit} clean FIRST and then the works of the body will be clean. The body will then be the temple of God in a far more explicit and true manner. God bypasses the flesh body entirely and does not harm the body, and works directly with the spiritual desires in man, removing those that are enmity against God and strengthening and establishing fully those that are of the divine nature and wisdom. God does no physical violence to anyone and those who believe that will begin to live that and those who do not believe it will not believe it because they are not yet able to DO IT. If we believe God does no evil, then we are able to be empowered by God within us to do so. But we must do it by believing it "FIRST" and after we have endured for a while, we will be established and strengthened, as Scripture records we will be. This "is" the day of the Lord when we begin to "see" things {understand correctly} about these things.
There is a quite natural assumption about the carnal mind I believe that causes us to naturally think off line a bit. For instance, the carnal mind is the mind of the spirit that is in the world. In the world we experience both good and evil events either through others or by being included in these events by our physical presence or by those we love having good or evil things happen to them as well as to us. The carnal mind in a believer is a mind set that believes the mind of the world or things and ways of the world are the ways of God also. They believe God will do evil to people at the "end" as His judgment upon them. But the truth is that it is evil that does the evil, not God who is only Good. That is why scripture says that it is our own ways upon us that will correct us and also teach us. But they only teach us well when we have the mind of Christ. Good teaches about good and evil desires and occurrences teach about evil. Evil can not teach one about good and good does not minister about evil. So... we are to minister the Spirit that GIVES life ONLY as being the Spirit that is GOD. Anything that is contrary to God's goodness is a lie and therefore is "of the enmity" that is contrary to God's way\Spirit. As Christians we are asked to remain good only and give good response in ourselves from any evil seen or done in the world, even when done to us. The promise is that we will be strengthened by God within us IF we do so often enough unto doing it eternally.
The mind of Christ STILL knows the things of both good and evil but no longer believes God does the evil to ANYONE. The mind of Christ in us is an understanding that all evil, harmful, death producing works and results are not of the Spirit or nature of God. The mind of Christ is the mind in a believer that is able to separate the tares or things that are not of God in the world and in ourselves from among those that are the ways and desires of God in the world and in ourselves. The knowledge about both remains but is correctly understood in the mind of Christ in a believer and the things we come to know as being ONLY of the flesh desires are kept within the parameters of Jesus Christ while we are in the world. This is the condition of spiritual maturity in Christ in the world that is now entering into our knowledge. We are to be the Spirit if God by and as we obey Christ more and more unto actual Christ likeness. The true spiritual image of GOD is now to be established within us while still in the world in a flesh and blood body. This means we will be like Jesus Christ was in Israel.
The tares or lusts of the flesh will be bound by the Spirit of Christ in us and kept within the limitations allowed for them in the world. We will still have to eat for the needs of the body for instance, but we will no linger allow those type of needful appetites to steal food or money etc. in order to satisfy our bodily needs and desires. We are not to do harm or take advantage of others to obtain what we need physically.
The is how God makes the inside clean and then as we are one with God by being His nature internally, we will keep the outside or body clean, making it walk in obedient loving righteousness that is of God, just like Jesus did in Israel. Go and sin no more he said. At that state, we too will be one with the Father that is in us, Eternal life which is all the attributes of the divine nature and the wisdom of God.
Thank you. Ken