Tentmaker Forum

Discussions Relating to Universal Reconciliation => Book of Revelation => Topic started by: SPOKENFOR on June 20, 2009, 09:37:43 AM

Title: 144,000?
Post by: SPOKENFOR on June 20, 2009, 09:37:43 AM
Who do you believe this number of people is? Is this a literal number, or is it saying something totally different. Can someone enlighten me. I have my thoughts on it, but I want to hear what others know. I am not near as intelligent in many matters concerning scripture, though I am coming along.
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: WhiteWings on June 20, 2009, 09:46:05 AM
Maybe you find (part of) your answer http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=5994.0 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=5994.0)
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: SPOKENFOR on June 20, 2009, 09:48:14 AM
Thanks, I will check it out.
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: SPOKENFOR on June 20, 2009, 09:49:05 AM
WhiteWings,

The link is saying it is off limits to me or missing..
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: WhiteWings on June 20, 2009, 09:53:28 AM
100% sure the thread is there.
There have been configuration errors/bugs before on the forum.
I leave this one for the crew to answer.
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: SPOKENFOR on June 20, 2009, 09:55:26 AM
Ok, no prob. I will try it again.
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: Molly on June 20, 2009, 09:58:50 AM
Oh --I think it's off limits to you because it is in the members section.

You must need more posts!  Then you will be able to access it. :icon_king:
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: WhiteWings on June 20, 2009, 10:01:56 AM
Thought of that too Molly. But how many 50?
SF you are only a few replies away from 50. Shoulda be an easy task...
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: SPOKENFOR on June 20, 2009, 10:05:15 AM
lol! Oh ok, well I better do what I do best and TALK......lol! Thanks.....
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: WhiteWings on June 20, 2009, 10:23:33 AM
Martin,

This kinda question pops up quite regurlary.
Perhaps a little more info?


So instead of:
QuoteMember's Lounge
Discuss absolutely anything here.

QuoteMember's Lounge
Discuss absolutely anything here. (50 posts required)
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: SPOKENFOR on June 20, 2009, 10:26:44 AM
(Ok, I think that will be about 50 posts now.. :banana:.on to some good reading :Book: :Book:)
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: WhiteWings on June 20, 2009, 10:31:48 AM
WhiteWings 1:1  Spam thouself approved, a newbie should not be ashamed. :winkgrin:
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: SPOKENFOR on June 20, 2009, 10:44:02 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 20, 2009, 10:31:48 AM
WhiteWings 1:1  Spam thouself approved, a newbie should not be ashamed. :winkgrin:

LOL! I love that. :laugh:..too cute....and I am soooo not ashamed...... :happy3:
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: SPOKENFOR on June 20, 2009, 10:45:05 AM
WW,

What do you think about my other thread regarding the judgment?
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: jabcat on June 20, 2009, 10:54:11 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 20, 2009, 10:23:33 AM
Martin,

This kinda question pops up quite regurlary.
Perhaps a little more info?


So instead of:
QuoteMember's Lounge
Discuss absolutely anything here.

QuoteMember's Lounge
Discuss absolutely anything here. (50 posts required)

Martin and I have chatted about that.  The 50 posts is right, but really, we can't discuss absolutely anything there.  Maybe also it could be "absolutely anything within forum guidelines...50 posts required".   :dontknow:
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: WhiteWings on June 20, 2009, 10:56:20 AM
Link plz...

/edit

Link plz SpokenFor.....
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: jabcat on June 20, 2009, 10:59:08 AM
Man, are there a bunch of different ideas on the OP!  I personally am not sure (and I'm not sure if anyone else is either...maybe they think they are  :laughing7:).  The JW's think it's an actual # of JW's, some think it's a certain group of Jews, some don't think it's necessarily a literal EXACT # (including J. Preston Eby who I like a lot) and some think it's totally some sort of "spiritual" message.  

I think I'm not that smart  :prankster:.
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: WhiteWings on June 20, 2009, 11:10:33 AM
Quote from: jabcat on June 20, 2009, 11:02:14 AM
I'm just saying that along with your suggestion, IMO, it should also clarify that not really absolutely anthing can be discussed...I just don't think that's real accurate, and is a holdover from before Martin took over.  I bet I could start 50 topics on there tonight that wouldn't make it past tomorrow  :mshock:.

Often "Chat about what doesn't fit in other sections" is used.
Adding things like within forum guidelines. No spam. No hate. No arms deals. Etc is kinda useless IMO.
People who don't understand that, don't understand it on purpose.

Personally I wonder why there are those restrictions (on the forums largest section)
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: jabcat on June 20, 2009, 11:21:44 AM
Don't you think it gives mods something concrete to act on?  That being said, there is a statement somewhere about "the forum will be moderated at moderator's discretion", or something like that...I take that to mean basically whatever Martin and the Mods (good band name  :drummer:) decide doesn't fit Gary's vision can be axed. 

It's probably no big deal, but IMO, just saying "discuss absolutely anything" is contradictory and opens the door to what really can't occur.  (It was a holdover from before Martin took over.)  Just my  :2c:. 

So 144,000 who/what everybody?  I also looked back at your thread on this WW.  Doesn't look like we've decided yet.   :mblush:
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: jabcat on June 20, 2009, 11:22:56 AM
P.S., yeah the "chat about what doesn't fit in other sections" makes good sense to me  :thumbsup:.  I think on Martin's list of things to be worried about though, this one ain't exactly keeping him up nights  :bigGrin:.
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: WhiteWings on June 20, 2009, 11:35:26 AM
Quote from: jabcat on June 20, 2009, 11:21:44 AM
Don't you think it gives mods something concrete to act on?
All who regged had to press "I've read and agree" button.
Surely most didn't even read it but that doesn't matter for the modding.

Besides of that only ETs are here to mess up things.
And they are the ones that know best that "Discuss all things" actually means discuss a few things :laughing7:

My point is this.
This forum has an easy going attitude. Mentioning rules in about every place makes it feel like a prison.
I think the easy going attitude is more important to preserve than pointing out guidelines.
Maybe my my opinion on this would be different if this forum was a war zone. But it isn't.
:2c:
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: jabcat on June 20, 2009, 11:43:21 AM
No prisons here..."who the Son sets free is free indeed"  :angel4: (what an ugly angel).
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: SPOKENFOR on June 21, 2009, 02:21:10 AM
Amen, free indeed :bgdance: :bgdance:
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: sheila on June 22, 2009, 06:58:54 PM


  these are the doves...of which it is said...who are these that

fly[Isaih 60;8] along like clouds,like doves to their nest.


   They are the wave breast offering portrayed in the 

  Aaronic preisthood[which is a copy of the spiritual heavenly

reality].The Glory of Zion speaks of the Light of the Lord on

them. They are sealed with His seal and SOS bespeaks this as

my dove..my perfect one..being unique...the only daughter of

her Mother[Jerusalem above]  No lie was found in their mouths.

   Their spiritual words were not defiled with women[of earthly

understandings per se..but virginal from above] You must be

born again of a virgin..born from above in pure truth and not be

a partaker of the adulterous spiritual fornication with Babylyon

and the kings of the earth. NO LIE WAS FOUND IN THEIR

MOUTHS.

   The virgins of heaven must 'bear' us...they are the ROYAL

BREASTS SPIRITUALLY SPEAKING THAT WE ARE TO BE NURSED

AT. Also for this reason John the Baptist saw the Holy spirit in

bodily form as a dove descend upon and remain on Jesus.

   The NEW SONG is the wedding supper of the Lord...when

  these doves speak truth  the following consequences is

Babylons fall,[with all her adulterous spiritual lies]


   Their sealing results in the truth of a great multitude in White

   robes.ALL Following this work of the spirit the seventh seal is

opened. There is silence in heaven for about a half an hour.

   Psalms 56 a superlative of the silent dove.....

  .... all day long they twist my WORDS.....the Hour of

    Judgement approaches.....the trumpet blasts signify the

   TRUE JUDGEMENTS OF GOD[ and we know that it results in

the people learning righteousness[all saved] which bespeaks of

God's full harvest[all mankind]

   The end of God's wrath approaches....as He pours it out

and shows His judgements of the spiritual ugliness of those

who have the understanding of a beast[under Babylon's

influence] Those who, with lies turned what should have been

water of life to blood/death to those who belived in Him

   The SUN"S LIGHT[Jesus/TRUTH/GRACE] Scorches people with

fire[flaming sword out of His mouth[Rev 2;16] Repent or I will

come and war with you with the sword of my mouth.

   The throne of the beast[carnal understanding] is thrown into

darkness[get away from me you workers of iniquity,I don't

know you!

    Three kings,three unclean expressions[lies about God and

   evil not Holy spirit,speak lies to  gather kings of whole world

to fight against truth.

   Last bowl poured out upon power of prince of the air

[prince /kings of this world, kings that fornicate with Babylon]


   this working of His plagues on Babylon results in her fall..

  she loses her position of spiritual authority over the beleivers

and the beleiver is delivered from her grasp...the Lamb

overcomes...He is the LORD OF LORDS and KING of Kings

   The invitaion is extended...all mankind is saved and is invited

to sup on truth..the truth that is not adulterated with spiritual

lies and whoredoms.

   They will each partake in their own order, as God calls them.

   Jesus rides on in victory conquering all enemies...the armies

of heaven are with Him[they are His wavebreast portion...

the women proclaiming the Goodnews are a great army


   How will we overcome this world? BY TRUTH.....the BLOOD OF

THE LAMB IS TRUTH[these words I speak to you are spirit and

truth]

   Lies will come up..even after the abyssing[shutting of the

mouth of the liar with truth of all mankind saved]Satan released

to  gather opposition to the truth spoken.


   Rev 21;17  He measured its wall and it was 144 cubits thick

  that Holy city come down from heaven is a sanctuary of TRUTH

EVEN THE WALLS OF SALVATION OF TRUTH IN WHICH WE LIVE

AND DWELL WITH GOD AND CHRIST.

  Outside are the lies and those who practise them

   Ths Spirit and the Bride say COME! Whoever is thirsty,

  let him come,and whoever wishes,let him take the free gift of

the water of life[truth of all mankinds salvation and God's love

for them]

   Come BUY WITHOUT MONEY...why pay for bread that is not

bread?.....no-one could buy or sell without  the mark of the

beast....go to those who sell[oil] and buy it.


   The true bread from heaven is free...a gift of grace....

   carnal beastly understanding and lies say you must buy

through your own works and wages..but that is not bread/or

truth.

   BUY TRUTH..AND SELL IT NOT

   BELEIVE IT..AND DON"T EXCHANGE IT FOR A LIE

   
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: Cardinal on June 22, 2009, 08:29:46 PM
 :cloud9: MAGNIFICENT........Blessings.....
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: martincisneros on June 22, 2009, 08:42:11 PM
Quote from: jabcat on June 20, 2009, 11:43:21 AM
No prisons here..."who the Son sets free is free indeed"  :angel4: (what an ugly angel).
That particular angel is for people on Mars since in the book of Acts they gave the implication that some angels might actually look like us, when Peter was delivered of prison and the people at the house that he went to didn't believe it was him knocking at the door.
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: jabcat on June 23, 2009, 05:47:45 AM
OK, maybe that explains it.  You're right about Peter.

However, you may not know how much that little sucker looks like one of my old bosses.   :mpardon:
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: Doug on July 09, 2009, 03:03:54 AM
In the description of the sealing of the 144,000 in Revelation 7:4-8, John lists the names of the tribes in an order that was not the order of birth. In the ordering of the names of the tribes there is a hidden psalm for the bride of Christ, which is the Church, that consists of believers of all nations. It could read something like this:

I will praise the LORD, (Judah)
Surely the LORD hath looked upon my affliction, (Reuben)
He has granted me good fortune, (Gad)
Happy am I, (Asher)
With great wrestlings have I wrestled, (Naphtali)
But God will make me forget all my toil, (Manasseh)
The LORD hath heard me, (Simeon)
He has joined Himself to me, (Levi)
He has purchased me, (Issachar)
He will dwell with me always, (Zebulun)
The LORD shall add more children to me, (Joseph)
By the son of His right hand. (Benjamin)

The tribe of Dan is missing. Dan means "judgment." The implication of the omission of his name, I suggest, is that those included in the 144,000 will escape the judgment. This supports their identification with the church.

Doug
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: Cardinal on July 09, 2009, 03:35:41 AM
 :cloud9: Just wondering where you got the meaning for "Reuben".......I've always seen it as, "Behold, a son". Blessings.....
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: Doug on July 09, 2009, 03:58:45 AM


Quote from: Cardinal

Just wondering where you got the meaning for "Reuben".......I've always seen it as, "Behold, a son". Blessings.....



Genesis 29:32
And Leah conceived, and bare a son, and she called his name Reuben: for she said, Surely the LORD hath looked upon my affliction; now therefore my husband will love me.

Doug
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: Beloved Servant on July 09, 2009, 04:05:08 AM
It sits well with my spirit the 144 is the complete (12x12) government of God.
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: Cardinal on July 09, 2009, 04:10:45 AM
 :cloud9: Mine, too......
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: Doug on July 09, 2009, 03:07:07 PM
Revelation 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Since the 144,000 are described as "the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb" they can be identified with the church, consisting of both Old Testament and New Testament saints, of all nations. This is "the city of the living God," the heavenly Jerusalem, called the bride of the Lamb in Revelation 21:9.

Hebrews 12:22-24
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

James referred to Christians as the "firstfruits of his creatures."

James 1:18
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Jesus was "the firstborn from the dead" [Colossians 1:18] and so he is the first of the firstfruits:

1 Corinthians 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Paul described the Church at Corinth as a "chaste virgin" who is "espoused to one husband" who is Christ. He refers to a spiritual virginity, as the context shows. He was talking about Christians being faithful to the truth, and not being led astray by false teachers.

2 Corinthians 11:2-3
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
   
Those whose minds become "corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ" are no longer virgins, in the spiritual sense that Paul implies here, which is what John refers to when he says the 144,000 saints are "virgins" in Revelation 14:4.

The 144,000 are the ones who are "sealed" and have the spirit of God. The seal of God teaches us to depart from iniquity:

2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Doug
Title: Re: 144,000?
Post by: Doug on July 09, 2009, 07:01:59 PM
The following discussion is about the verses that precede the account of the sealing of the 144,000 in Revelation 7.

Revelation 7:1-3
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

The four winds are thought to be angels, or spirits, who are subject to the angels responsible for sealing God's elect.
   
James Burton Coffman's Commentary says:
Quote

Plummer understood this whole chapter as the logical answer to the closing words of Rev. 6, "Who shall be able to stand?" thus connecting Rev. 7 with the final judgment scene there related.  This is correct and has the effect of applying Rev. 7, not to some specific event of history, but to the whole earthly probation of the saints. "The sealing extends throughout the whole New Testament era."  Here is the prophetic equivalent of Jesus' promise to be with his church "even unto the end of the world" (Matthew 28:20), and of Paul's, "all things work together for good to them that are called according to his purpose" (Romans 8:25). The immense comfort of persecuted saints in such glorious promises is exactly the comfort graphically pictured in these two magnificent visions of Rev. 7.


http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=007

The earth and the sea are probably symbolic of those who are not among the servants of God who are sealed. This is seen in the following scriptures.

Isaiah 57:20
But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.

Revelation 8:13
And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Those who dwell in heaven, are the saints who are sealed; the woman in heaven, clothed with the sun, in Rev. 12:1 represents the church. The sun with which she is clothed represents the gospel, the "great light" that was preached by Jesus, Matthew 4:13-17.

In Revelation 7:2, the sealing angel comes from the east, or the sunrising, as the sun represents the gospel, and is what clothes the woman in Revelation 12:1.

On the day of Pentecost when the disciples received the holy Spirit, Peter referred to a prophecy of Joel, that said "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."  (Acts 2:20-21)

The sun would be turned to darkness, the prophet Joel said, and this was fulfilled in the early centuries of the Christian era by the introduction into the church of pagan philosophy, including Plato's doctrine of an immortal soul, and the pagan superstition of the unending infernal torment of unbelievers. Theologians merged those false teachings with the teachings of the apostles in the New Testament. These beliefs obscured the light of the gospel, turning the "sun" to darkness, and fulfilling the prophcey of Joel, but the truth has begun to dawn in the minds of some, as Peter said, when he exhorted us to give heed to prophecy:

2 Peter 1:19
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

This "day star" Peter refers to is the gospel, the truth of which is like the sun rising in our hearts, like the day dawning, after a long, and very dark night.

Doug