I remember a funny story. In the Divine Comedy by Dante, he finally makes it to heaven. Shortly upon his arrival a saint comes up to him and Dante asks the saint a question. He asks him what the truth is about the "free will/election" debate. Dante assumes that once in heaven all the various things that we debate on this side of the veil of be answered.
The saint tells him, that the saints are still working on that one. :dontknow:
So I wonder, do you believe that the things we debate or disagree on here, will be settled on the 'other side?" or not?
Will we still be debating these issues "over there?"
If you believe that the debate will continue after we leave this world, why? :dontknow:
If you do not believe that the debate will continue after we leave this world, why? :dontknow:
Hans
I think many things will be answered; simply because you see/experience them.
But I don't think we know everything so there are things to learn. And learning often comes with discussing
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 08, 2011, 11:00:27 AM
I think many things will be answered; simply because you see/experience them.
But I don't think we know everything so there are things to learn. And learning often comes with discussing
No doubt, the grand drama of eternity past is a lot to download, and there will always be a lot to learn, but I mean some of the more simple stuff that we discuss on this earth.
For example, the free will/election debate, the OSAS debate, the all saved or some saved debate. Will we continue on those easy items, or will those answers come pretty quick upon arrival over there? If so why, if not why?
I think we will pretty much know the answers to the questions you mentioned then.
CHB
Quote from: Hansc on February 08, 2011, 11:09:56 AM
For example, the free will/election debate, the OSAS debate, the all saved or some saved debate. Will we continue on those easy items, or will those answers come pretty quick upon arrival over there? If so why, if not why?
It will be answered very quickly. If you for example think muslims won't be in heaven and after a while you meet more and more of them you have your answer :winkgrin:
Or just ask Jesus. I'm sure He'll clarify any question.
For me, we are still living in "flat-land" mentality wondering if Columbus ever landed on the bottom of the world since his voyage fell off the eddge. Our abiility to perceive what will or won't go on in heaven while were still planted in this earh, is everything but accurate. It's limited, flawed, twisted, blinded, deceived, misunderstood, on and on.
What I do think will happen is, Jesus' prayer will be fully manifested in that we will all finally become "one" with the Father as he is one with the Son. I used to think every person will immediately know every "thing" there is to know about everything. But now, not so much. It's not that I don't think everyone will know everything . . .I just think that no one will really care what they do or don't know because everyone will be so engaged with the Father and Son in us that everything else merely fails to compare in glory and importance.
I hope so, learning is a pleasurable experience, I think perhaps that when we arrive with God, that will have access to the universal libary of God and have the capacity to understand them, it doesn't mean though, that we instantly know everything, just that everything is provided for us to explore and learn.
:2c:
I think that all believers at salvation are sealed upon their heart with the seal of God, which is the pledge, seal. promise (2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:13,14) that all He has promised will come to pass; the Spirit in our heart which cries "abba Father!" is that seal and proof we are saved (Romans 8:15,16); the seal of His ownership.
I believe there is a second seal upon believers, which will be the "seal on the forehead". It is spoken of in Revelation 7:3, that 144,000 of the tribes of Israel will be sealed.. There's something about 144,000 and 12 being the square root of 144, that makes this number an endless sort of number (I understood this at one time :laughing7:). All believers Paul wrote (in Romans) "are grafted into the House of Israel" (Revelation 12:5,6). This strongly suggests all believers will also receive this second sealing, which is upon the forehead. Our hearts are sealed at salvation, and our forehead or minds are sealed (unto Him) also.
And what else can this seal upon the forehead be, but 100% clarity, at least of the elemental things of truth, doctrine and Bible which we do not fully understand at this time. Everything upon Earth is like tapestries. And they are weaved with true and false threads. Threads of light and threads of dark. Truth and lies. But the sWord of the Spirit, the Word of God - "thy word is truth" - (the tip of the sWord of Truth) is able to divide truth from lie, thread from thread. [Ephesians 6:17; Hebrews 4:12]
..."at his appearing, we shall be like him for we shall see him as he truly is" 1 John 3:2.
:2c:
..To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ... Jude 1:1
White Wings
QuoteIt will be answered very quickly. If you for example think Muslims won't be in heaven and after a while you meet more and more of them you have your answer
On the one hand, I think we will learn various things throughout eternity.
But like the Muslim response many of those questions will be answered pretty quickly. We will know and experience it.
Stuff like the belief that the streets are paved with gold. Over here, we could argue about it, some may claim that they really are gold pavers, others may argue that those bricks of gold are just metaphors. However, once over there if you just get a pick and dig up a street you could pretty well settle the issue of gold bricks.
I think it also works like that with other things and not just bricks.
in case you haven't noticed we not only 'wonder' here, we also 'wander'. :laughing7: sometimes we even get back on topic, such as with your last post. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Hansc on February 09, 2011, 10:23:53 AM
White Wings
QuoteIt will be answered very quickly. If you for example think Muslims won't be in heaven and after a while you meet more and more of them you have your answer
On the one hand, I think we will learn various things throughout eternity.
But like the Muslim response many of those questions will be answered pretty quickly. We will know and experience it.
Stuff like the belief that the streets are paved with gold. Over here, we could argue about it, some may claim that they really are gold pavers, others may argue that those bricks of gold are just metaphors. However, once over there if you just get a pick and dig up a street you could pretty well settle the issue of gold bricks.
I think it also works like that with other things and not just bricks.
Actually, I think that's a bit of a misunderstanding about the golden streets . . .Scripture never mentions "streets". It states "street". One river in the garden of Eden, one river flowing from the throne in Revelation . . .and one street of gold. I think they point to the same source . . .everything leads back to the Father.
Nathan said:
QuoteScripture never mentions "streets". It states "street". One river in the garden of Eden, one river flowing from the throne in Revelation . . .and one street of gold.
Could it be one straight street or one street with many connected branches, so many avenues but all interlocked? We could debate that here, but once on the other side, we will see and experience and the issue will be settled.
We will know if it is one straight street or one street with many branches but still counted as one street. Or even if there are bricks of gold, or one solid mass of gold.
On this side, we have to buy into an interpretive narrative presentation.
On this side, we have to take these matters by faith.
On the other side we will know.
On the other side we will not have to take it by faith, because we will see and experience whether there are Muslims there, or bricks of gold, or one solid straight street.
If we will not need to take these things by faith over there, because we can see and experience.
Then how is a person who rejected Christ on this side to take Christ by faith on the other side when seeing and experience become irrefutable? How is that possible?
Hans have you seen the threads regarding faith of Jesus vs in Jesus? Another mistranslation leading people to believe that we have any choice to make. Im sorry i cant provide reference right now maybe the others can chime in. Im on vacation and only have my iphone and its hard enough to follow threads let alone research
Then how is a person who rejected Christ on this side to take Christ by faith on the other side when seeing and experience become irrefutable? How is that possible?
What Christ are they rejecting? I think most if not all, are rejecting someone's "image" of Christ rather than the true Christ. I also think that as we continue to try to see "over there" from "over here" it'll only lead to more hard to answer questions. Yet I believe that we've been given the ability to "see" over there "from" over here as we enter into a relationship of intimacy with the Father through Christ.
"over there" is God's atmosphere. I can't get into his atmosphere without first going through the one and only gate leading into it. Just as carnal death in me now, leads to abundant life in this realm here and now, so also does natural death leads into spiritual life. The thing most churches seem to not understand is WHENEVER any person has an encounter with the Father, that person is transformed.
This is why I see the great white throne judgment as a place where dirt is removed and only the pure remains. Which is not saying bad people are destroyed and good people remain. It's saying the dirt in ALL people is burned away so that only purity remains. God is a consuming fire, anyone who approaches him become purified by him, plain and simple.
Gonna throw you a curve here, but many also embrace satan as an evil, spiritual entity. And they beleive that as Job SEEMS to portray, satan could approach God and not be affected by being in the presence of God. I can't accept that. It's saying that God's presence isn't strong enough to overcome evil and that's just not the case. At any rate . . .bottom line is, experiencng the great white throne will purify the heart of man, not destroy or eternally torment him. Remember, where there is sin, grace abounds even more.
If the GWT was a place of destruction of men, where is the grace then applied if it's to abound even more than the sin in man?
Hi HansC,
Just thought I would interject here...
Quote from: Hansc on February 10, 2011, 09:38:16 AM
Nathan said:
QuoteScripture never mentions "streets". It states "street". One river in the garden of Eden, one river flowing from the throne in Revelation . . .and one street of gold.
Could it be one straight street or one street with many connected branches, so many avenues but all interlocked? We could debate that here, but once on the other side, we will see and experience and the issue will be settled.
We will know if it is one straight street or one street with many branches but still counted as one street. Or even if there are bricks of gold, or one solid mass of gold.
On this side, we have to buy into an interpretive narrative presentation.
On this side, we have to take these matters by faith.
On the other side we will know.
On the other side we will not have to take it by faith, because we will see and experience whether there are Muslims there, or bricks of gold, or one solid straight street.
You are right in that we won't really know until we get there. But we can make some pretty good guesses. And it is based on our beliefs and faith.
IMHO it pretty much has to be symbolic. A street is physical. Gold is physical. But the physical will pass away for the spiritual.
Quote
If we will not need to take these things by faith over there, because we can see and experience.
Then how is a person who rejected Christ on this side to take Christ by faith on the other side when seeing and experience become irrefutable? How is that possible?
I guess who's to say everything will be revealed
all at once? We don't know exactly what anyone will experience when they awake "on the other side". What will be the first thing you see when you open your eyes after the resurrection? What is the judgment? What is the lake of fire? When does everyone bow and confess and swear allegiance to Christ? When does every creature praise God's name? These things are sure to happen, but when, for how long - what will be revealed at each stage? What specifically will happen in each stage?
"each in their own order" is a key phrase here - everyone is made alive, but each in their own order. Not at the same time.
Lets hypothesize a bit further here.
God is making all people in His image. His image is Love - patient, kind, not delighting in evil, faithful, always hoping, always protecting, persevering, never failing. So faith is part of that (being faithful, always hoping). These are the attributes of love - which is what God is.
Lets look at some of these attributes. For example: "Always protecting" - by necessity, in order for us to be made in God's image - in order to understand how to always protect - there must be something we need protecting from. This means
by necessity there must be some evil in the world that we need to be protected from
so that we learn how to protect. Likewise in order to learn how to not delight in evil -
evil must exist at least temporarily. If it did not, we could not learn how
to not delight in it.
Now because of these two goals: learning how to always protect and how to not delight in evil (which is part of God's plan to make us in His image), it practically necessitates that there be much evil in this world and it also necessitates that many people in this world will not actually learn these things
before they die.
However:
God's plan is still to make all people in His image! Since this cannot happen for everyone before they die (as far as we can see) - it must happen after they are resurrected.
Which now brings me back to the question you were raising. How can people learn faith after they have died? Well if we stick with the hypothesis that God is making us in His image - then we can be rest assured that
everyone will learn faith. I can imagine a thousand different scenarios in which that could be achieved. Collectively I could call this the judgment they go through, or symbolically a 'lake of fire' experience. Specifically, just hypothesizing, perhaps people are resurrected into a place where they need to learn faith in order to come to God. Perhaps they are resurrected but not everything is revealed yet. This could be accomplished through many different means, much in the same way it is accomplished in this life.
I guess the larger point here is that God has a plan, and God is using methods, causes, and means to bring that plan to fruition, and that plan does not necessarily stop at our physical death. Certainly it does not because we know all are resurrected. And certainly judgment is a large part of that plan.
It's an interesting question . . .faith on the other side . . .I'm not sure it'll be necessary. Faith is what allows us to "see" the other side from "this" side. What I see in faith on this side are things that are already accomplished on the other side. But when we pass over to the other side, there's really no need for faith because for one, the invisible becomes visible and two, the Spiritual realm is the finished state of life . . .everything is complete and finished.
I would venture to say that faith is only applicable for those who live in this realm. For me, faith is seeing the finished works of the Father's will in the spiritual realm, to be applied into this natural realm.
Quote from: Nathan on February 10, 2011, 09:08:33 PM
It's an interesting question . . .faith on the other side . . .I'm not sure it'll be necessary. Faith is what allows us to "see" the other side from "this" side. What I see in faith on this side are things that are already accomplished on the other side. But when we pass over to the other side, there's really no need for faith because for one, the invisible becomes visible and two, the Spiritual realm is the finished state of life . . .everything is complete and finished.
I would venture to say that faith is only applicable for those who live in this realm. For me, faith is seeing the finished works of the Father's will in the spiritual realm, to be applied into this natural realm.
Yes I think you may be right. I mean, when God is finally "all in all" - then we will all know that we will enjoy peace and love forever. Faith, hope, and love: but the greatest is love.
Also what redhotmagma says ties into it, I can't remember the thread as well, but I've seen it discussed before:
faith
of Christ
vs.
faith
in Christ
Faith is a gift - its not of ourselves. Romans 3:3 comes to mind:
Romans 3:3 What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God's faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar.
Romans is such a wonderful book. From there we go on, learn that none are righteous - through Adam all were made sinners, but through Christ all will be made righteous. God makes vessels of honor and dishonor for His purposes. But its summed up in Romans 11.
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 3:3 What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God's faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar.
We just went through this last night in Genesis with Abram and Sarai. God made the covenant with Abraham that he would multiply his seed to be greater numbers than the sands of the sea . . .but then Abraham went and took matters in his own hands and accepted Sarai's offering of her handmaid. (Same as Eve offering Adam the fruit of knowledge . .it just 'seemed" like a logical thing to do . . .logic=reason=knowledge) And as soon as she conceived the seed, rather than bonding as a family, she became divided against Sarai and Abram let Sarai judge her harshly . . so much so that she left the house.
Then it gets interesting . . .now that Abrams seed is in her, the covenant God made with Abraham, now applies to Hagar. Not because of the deed, but because of the seed. The covenant is in the seed. Even though Abraham adulterated his relationship with Sarai, the seed still carried the covenant. We have the seed of life in us, even though we may totally mess up the plan God has for us in our lives, he still honors the covenant in the seed within us.
Quote from: Nathan on February 10, 2011, 09:08:33 PM
It's an interesting question . . .faith on the other side . . .I'm not sure it'll be necessary. Faith is what allows us to "see" the other side from "this" side. What I see in faith on this side are things that are already accomplished on the other side. But when we pass over to the other side, there's really no need for faith because for one, the invisible becomes visible and two, the Spiritual realm is the finished state of life . . .everything is complete and finished.
I would venture to say that faith is only applicable for those who live in this realm. For me, faith is seeing the finished works of the Father's will in the spiritual realm, to be applied into this natural realm.
That's how I see it too, and that is what creates the conundrum.
How are those who have been blotted out and are now on the 'other side' and now "see and experience" supposed to utilize faith to get back into the Book of Life? :dontknow:
Quote from: Hansc on February 11, 2011, 10:24:06 AM
Quote from: Nathan on February 10, 2011, 09:08:33 PM
It's an interesting question . . .faith on the other side . . .I'm not sure it'll be necessary. Faith is what allows us to "see" the other side from "this" side. What I see in faith on this side are things that are already accomplished on the other side. But when we pass over to the other side, there's really no need for faith because for one, the invisible becomes visible and two, the Spiritual realm is the finished state of life . . .everything is complete and finished.
I would venture to say that faith is only applicable for those who live in this realm. For me, faith is seeing the finished works of the Father's will in the spiritual realm, to be applied into this natural realm.
That's how I see it too, and that is what creates the conundrum.
How are those who have been blotted out and are now on the 'other side' and now "see and experience" supposed to utilize faith to get back into the Book of Life? :dontknow:
Same way Thomas did, Hans.
John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "
Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Or, are you blotting out Thomas, too?
I don't believe any of us have faith unless and until it's given to us by God. It's His gift, not something we can conjure up or act on within ourselves. Otherwise, we could boast. (Most of us do or have, even though we have no right). Thomas is a good example alright. In another way, so is Paul. Jesus found him, Saul wasn't looking for Jesus. He was looking for some more Christians to kill. God had other plans, and gave Saul exactly what he needed to become that vessel fit for service. It was Paul's "turn" (I Cor. 15:23).
I believe only a few are given this faith to believe unto salvation now. The rest later. The Lake of Fire comes into "play" (our God's a consuming fire), some few/some many stripes, bringing to repentance when every knee bows, every tongue confesses. Millions have never heard of Jesus on this side of the grave, and there's no Biblical support for "salvation by innocence", so....
Blessings.
John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Nobody sees Jesus in this life. So doesn't that verse makes a strong case for after death repentance/conversion?
I was thinking about the Thomas/seeing/not seeing situation.
Without looking, does it say anywhere that those who do see and believe are somehow discounted, or just that those who believe without seeing are blessed (especially, not exclusively)?
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 11, 2011, 10:53:02 AM
John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Nobody sees Jesus in this life. So doesn't that verse makes a strong case for after death repentance/conversion?
I'd say so.
Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.It would be pretty hard not to do that if he were standing right in front of you.
Quote from: jabcat on February 11, 2011, 11:00:26 AM
I was thinking about the Thomas/seeing/not seeing situation.
Without looking, does it say anywhere that those who do see and believe are somehow discounted, or just that those who believe without seeing are blessed (especially, not exclusively)?
For me the verse strongly states believing without seeing gives blessings. Pehaps being part of the millenium Kingdom?
But most importantly; it doesn't mean that those that only believe when they see are doomed. Jesus was very friendly to Thomas. No indication at all Thomas would suffer for eternity.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 11, 2011, 11:14:29 AM
Quote from: jabcat on February 11, 2011, 11:00:26 AM
I was thinking about the Thomas/seeing/not seeing situation.
Without looking, does it say anywhere that those who do see and believe are somehow discounted, or just that those who believe without seeing are blessed (especially, not exclusively)?
For me the verse strongly states believing without seeing gives blessings. Pehaps being part of the millenium Kingdom?
But most importantly; it doesn't mean that those that only believe when they see are doomed. Jesus was very friendly to Thomas. No indication at all Thomas would suffer for eternity.
1 Tim 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
Those who believe are blessed now, because they realize what is happening. That is how they are 'especially' saved. This is related to them being in the Kingdom. Yet all are still saved.
IMHO the blessing is related to the fruits of the spirit: the peace, joy & love we can feel knowing God will ultimately have all men to be saved.
Quote from: legoman on February 11, 2011, 03:13:32 PMIMHO the blessing is related to the fruits of the spirit: the peace, joy & love we can feel knowing God will ultimately have all men to be saved.
Mmmm, I don't think that's true.
Some ET really seem to like the idea of torture. Atheists are at piece too because they don't believe in ET either.
That that's a lot of happy people that don't believe in salvation of all.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 11, 2011, 03:18:59 PM
Quote from: legoman on February 11, 2011, 03:13:32 PMIMHO the blessing is related to the fruits of the spirit: the peace, joy & love we can feel knowing God will ultimately have all men to be saved.
Mmmm, I don't think that's true.
Some ET really seem to like the idea of torture. Atheists are at piece too because they don't believe in ET either.
That that's a lot of happy people that don't believe in salvation of all.
But I don't think that is true peace - do you? Being at peace with the idea of your grandmother burning forever would seem to indicate a hard heart, not a peaceful heart. :dontknow:
Accepting that its "ok" that your grandmother is burning forever - is that love? :dontknow:
Love always protects.
Love never gives up.
JMHO
Atheists, a huge group of people, don't believe in hell. So they are at peace.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 11, 2011, 04:59:02 PM
Atheists, a huge group of people, don't believe in hell. So they are at peace.
Yes, that is peace. Agreed.
However they also (effectively) believe in annihilation.
Not as peaceful as believing all will be at peace forever.
Dunno. Depends if they are scared of death...
Many Christians fear death too. Even if they think they/others are saved.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 11, 2011, 05:31:44 PM
Dunno. Depends if they are scared of death...
Many Christians fear death too. Even if they think they/others are saved.
That is just a general fear of the unknown, which admittedly is what death is (unknown). This is because of the mythology surrounding it - nothingness vs. eternal torture vs. eternal rock concerts & chocolate. None of these is really "peaceful".
Christian or not, many do not have peace if they still fear death.
If we have faith and hope that all will be restored and brought together in harmony, IMHO I can't think of anything that brings more peace. I suppose some will always say that the only true peace we could have is if they didn't exist, or no one existed. But they are not seeing what God will do IMHO.
Where can I sign for an eternal rock concert? :thumbsup:
To the question:
How are those who have been blotted out and are now on the 'other side' and now "see and experience" supposed to utilize faith to get back into the Book of Life?
Molly answered:
QuoteSame way Thomas did, Hans.
So you are suggesting that Thomas was blotted out of the Book of Life, went to the 'other side' and then utilized faith to get back in? To me, this answer, does not address the actual question asked.
I'm beginning to wonder...what exactly is the "Book of Life"? Sure, I hear it is the record of those who are saved, but I think that perhaps, such a significant artifact in the Heavenlies held by God himself would surely be more than a mere ledger of guests "on the list".
Honestly, I really think that's what we're all trying to figure out. Lots of opinions, some evidence, some assumptions/extrapolations, but I've not seen everything in clarity (for myself) yet.
Quote from: Hansc on February 12, 2011, 02:47:27 AM
To the question:
How are those who have been blotted out and are now on the 'other side' and now "see and experience" supposed to utilize faith to get back into the Book of Life?
Molly answered:
QuoteSame way Thomas did, Hans.
So you are suggesting that Thomas was blotted out of the Book of Life, went to the 'other side' and then utilized faith to get back in? To me, this answer, does not address the actual question asked.
No. I'm suggesting your theory is wrong. Thomas didn't believe until he saw, yet there is no reason to believe he was 'blotted.' He does get the somewhat notorious nickname of 'Doubter,' though. :icon_king:
Frankly, I didn't believe as an adult until I saw, either. Faith is just another way of 'seeing' things. We are blessed to be given that sight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzdwwX3_SI4
Biblically speaking, not very many people at all would have believed Jesus if not for seeing his miracles, and the miracle of his life.
Quote from: Lefein on February 12, 2011, 02:55:51 AM
I'm beginning to wonder...what exactly is the "Book of Life"? Sure, I hear it is the record of those who are saved, but I think that perhaps, such a significant artifact in the Heavenlies held by God himself would surely be more than a mere ledger of guests "on the list".
There is another thread here where the Book of Life is the primary focus. Check it out.
Molly
QuoteThomas . . . there is no reason to believe he was 'blotted.'
That's my point, you cannot compare him to someone who has, which your answer assumed.
QuoteI didn't believe as an adult until I saw,
Are you saying you have been blotted out, gone to the other side and "seen and experienced?" That is the focus of the question.
The question was and is:
How can someone who has been blotted out and gone to the other side, seen and experienced what is 'over there', then use faith to get back in the Book of Life? That's the question.
Quote from: Lefein on February 12, 2011, 03:59:19 AM
Biblically speaking, not very many people at all would have believed Jesus if not for seeing his miracles, and the miracle of his life.
During the last two thousand years the overwhelming mass of people who have believed in Jesus have never seen Him, on this side of the veil.
Quote from: Hansc on February 12, 2011, 08:50:32 AM
Quote from: Lefein on February 12, 2011, 03:59:19 AM
Biblically speaking, not very many people at all would have believed Jesus if not for seeing his miracles, and the miracle of his life.
During the last two thousand years the overwhelming mass of people who have believed in Jesus have never seen Him, on this side of the veil.
That's correct.
YLTJohn 2029 Jesus saith to him, `Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed; happy those not having seen, and having believed.
The verse mentions two groups of believers. The red group is the group you mentioned.
But what about the blue group? Is there only one person (Thomas) in that group?
Imo, Jesus wasn't just speaking to Thomas. The verse is a teaching for whole mankind.
Then what exactly was that 'blue teaching'?
Personally I think Jesus was not pronouncing doom on Thomas.
Jesus called Thomas a believer.
YLTActs 1631 and they said, `Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved--thou and thy house;'
So everyone that believes is saved. Thomas didn't even believe by seeing. He needed to touch Him to believe.
But right now we can only believe without seeing, hearing or touching. --> Our first opportunity so to speak.
But when we can believe because we touch like Thomas? -> Our second opportunity.
I think that happens at the "every knee shall bow" event...
BTW the other apostles were not real believers either. They traveled 3 years with Jesus. They saw many miracles. And still they didn't believe He would be resurrected. Not even the women who reported it were believed.
Thomas needed seeing and touching. The others needed seeing. Far more as we have right now. But they are all saved.
Here is a challenge for ya.
People are taken out fo hell and the sea in the great white throne judgement, they see God.
But afterward the verse says in rev 22, the "unbelieving shall take part in the lake of fire"
So if someone does what Thomas does at the greatwhitethrone room, does that mean, they are saved there and then?
whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.. Rom. 10:13
IMO, it's an incorrect assumption this must occur in this age. Millions are never even given that opportunity in this age - not their turn yet.
...every tongue confesses, all nations blessed, the earth will be filled with the glory of the Lord, no more pain, no more tears, no more death - it all precludes ED or ET in my limited view. If not, seems to me just the opposite of the above promises in the scriptures would be true. :2c:
Quote from: thinktank on February 13, 2011, 01:54:23 AM
Here is a challenge for ya.
People are taken out fo hell and the sea in the great white throne judgement, they see God.
But afterward the verse says in rev 22, the "unbelieving shall take part in the lake of fire"
So if someone does what Thomas does at the greatwhitethrone room, does that mean, they are saved there and then?
If that is the case why wouldn't everybody get saved at that point? Why would anybody not take that option?
Quote from: Hansc on February 13, 2011, 12:20:27 PM
Quote from: thinktank on February 13, 2011, 01:54:23 AM
Here is a challenge for ya.
People are taken out fo hell and the sea in the great white throne judgement, they see God.
But afterward the verse says in rev 22, the "unbelieving shall take part in the lake of fire"
So if someone does what Thomas does at the greatwhitethrone room, does that mean, they are saved there and then?
If that is the case why wouldn't everybody get saved at that point? Why would anybody not take that option?
49 for every one with fire shall be salted, and every sacrifice with salt shall be salted.
And who is bearing the day of his coming? And who is standing in his appearing? For he is as fire of a refiner, And as soap of a fuller.
All are saved but still filth won't enter heaven. Some purification must take place.
Quote from: Hansc on February 13, 2011, 12:20:27 PM
Quote from: thinktank on February 13, 2011, 01:54:23 AM
Here is a challenge for ya.
People are taken out fo hell and the sea in the great white throne judgement, they see God.
But afterward the verse says in rev 22, the "unbelieving shall take part in the lake of fire"
So if someone does what Thomas does at the greatwhitethrone room, does that mean, they are saved there and then?
If that is the case why wouldn't everybody get saved at that point? Why would anybody not take that option?
Its not necessarily about 'taking the option' but instead its about 'going through the process'.
Like WW said, everyone will be salted with fire.
All are judged in fire.
Judgment is for refinement and teaching righteousness.
All will be made righteous through Christ.
Its not an option. :Sparkletooth:
Quote from: jabcat on February 13, 2011, 02:06:05 AM
whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.. Rom. 10:13
IMO, it's an incorrect assumption this must occur in this age. Millions are never even given that opportunity in this age - not their turn yet.
...every tongue confesses,
In this life. After death is judgement
Quoteall nations blessed,
By having the opportunity to turn to Jesus.
Quotethe earth will be filled with the glory of the Lord, no more pain, no more tears, no more death
For those that turned to Him. Hell is not on earth but in the sun's core...
There is always a way to twist things :winkgrin:
Quote from: Hansc on February 12, 2011, 08:47:51 AM
Molly
QuoteThomas . . . there is no reason to believe he was 'blotted.'
That's my point, you cannot compare him to someone who has, which your answer assumed.
QuoteI didn't believe as an adult until I saw,
Are you saying you have been blotted out, gone to the other side and "seen and experienced?" That is the focus of the question.
The question was and is:
How can someone who has been blotted out and gone to the other side, seen and experienced what is 'over there', then use faith to get back in the Book of Life? That's the question.
If they call upon the lords name, and belive he can save them, then he will come to find his lost sheep.
Perhaps hades is not under the earth as such, but is deemed, under as in lower realms of existence compared to heaven. So if they are lost in space somehwhere, they can call upon Jesus and be saved.
Perhaps that's why Jesus said to the pharisees
John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins."
Quote from: Hansc on February 13, 2011, 12:20:27 PM
Quote from: thinktank on February 13, 2011, 01:54:23 AM
Here is a challenge for ya.
People are taken out fo hell and the sea in the great white throne judgement, they see God.
But afterward the verse says in rev 22, the "unbelieving shall take part in the lake of fire"
So if someone does what Thomas does at the greatwhitethrone room, does that mean, they are saved there and then?
If that is the case why wouldn't everybody get saved at that point?
Maybe they will.
QuoteWhy would anybody not take that option?
All christians know the answer to that, so I can only assume that the question is rhetorical.
Going back to Thomas, Molly's point IMO was perfectly valid. The point being that Thomas did not believe until he had seen and touched Christ. Upon this, Christ still accepted him. So what faith did Thomas require? No more than those who see Christ post-mortem.
But more importantly, I believe that some here seem to be limiting what 'faith' is. Replace that word with 'trust' and a trust so profound that it implies total surrender and complete reliance on.
In that case, those who have already died can still choose to 'have faith' ie to surrender their all to the One they see before them, or they can try to resist. No problem.
Quote from: pilgrim1 on February 14, 2011, 03:53:51 PM
Quote from: Hansc on February 13, 2011, 12:20:27 PM
Quote from: thinktank on February 13, 2011, 01:54:23 AM
Here is a challenge for ya.
People are taken out fo hell and the sea in the great white throne judgement, they see God.
But afterward the verse says in rev 22, the "unbelieving shall take part in the lake of fire"
So if someone does what Thomas does at the greatwhitethrone room, does that mean, they are saved there and then?
If that is the case why wouldn't everybody get saved at that point?
Maybe they will.
QuoteWhy would anybody not take that option?
All christians know the answer to that, so I can only assume that the question is rhetorical.
Going back to Thomas, Molly's point IMO was perfectly valid. The point being that Thomas did not believe until he had seen and touched Christ. Upon this, Christ still accepted him. So what faith did Thomas require? No more than those who see Christ post-mortem.
But more importantly, I believe that some here seem to be limiting what 'faith' is. Replace that word with 'trust' and a trust so profound that it implies total surrender and complete reliance on.
In that case, those who have already died can still choose to 'have faith' ie to surrender their all to the One they see before them, or they can try to resist. No problem.
I think the fact that Thomas had doubt would also explain why the most intimate things were only offered to Peter, James and John while the other nine disciples were not included. Just because we're followers of Christ doesn't mean we're receptive to the deeper things. We may say we "want" them, but as God knows our hearts, he also knows that as we're led by our heads (when it "should" be by our hearts) that we'll reject what's intended to be seen by our hearts. Only those who were the closest to Jesus, were those who saw the most . . .not that they understood it all, but it was never about knowledge, it was always about birthing truth into, and out of the heart.
As for the great white throne . . .where is it? Is it going to be a literal court where there's a literal white bench behind which God the Father sits? Or is this a SPIRITUAL experience??? And if it IS a spiritual experience, do we go by the same principles in the spiritual realm that we do here on earth? Or is what we think is the least of importance here, actually the greatest importance there? What we say is first and foremost here, is actually last there?
Reverse the logic. In this realm, if you have a clean guy standing next to a dirty guy and you have them shake hands . . .does the clean guy make the dirty guy clean? Or does the dirty guy make the clean guy dirty? Take the same question to a spiritual place . . . you will have an opposite answer.
The GREAT WHITE throne does not become dirty as dirty people approach it . . .the dirty people do not encounter the GREAT WHITE throne and walk away with no effect. The GREAT WHITE judgment throne is one that purifies all who approach it. If you're name is not in the book of LIFE you are thrown into the lake of fire THAT PURIFIES so that you name BECOMES positioned in the book of life.
Look . . .the same thing that Peter revealed when Jesus rebuked him is happening all over again. Jesus message changed direction the day Peter's name was changed.
Matthew 16
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 20Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 22Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me:
for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Jesus told them he was going to Jerusalem to die and be resurrected and all Peter heard was that Jesus was going to die. Where did he get that from? Jesus jumped all over the fact that when Peter received his first revelation from God of who Jesus was, that it couldn't come by way of flesh and blood . . .it couldn't come through the teachings, the reasoning and logic of men. And then when Peter tried to keep Jesus from fulfilling his purpose he (Peter) became an ADVERSARY (satan) to God's whole plan. Because he savored things that be of men . . .he relied on reasoning and logic over personal revelation.
This Great White Throne that the traditional church sees, is about death . .same as Peter, they can't seem to get past the death in order to see it's all actually about resurrection. Jesus didn't just come to die, he came to give us resurrection, but before he could do that, he first had to die. Those who's names are not in the book of life can't see resurrection, so they are throne "into" the all consuming fire not for the purpose of death to the individual, but for the purpose that resurrection can come to them.
In the kingdom principle, you take a clean guy who connects with a dirty guy, that which is clean has power over that which isn't. So it's the dirty guy that becomes clean . . .anyone who approaches the throne of God BECOMES transformed . . .if they don't, then that would mean their filth is greater than his purity . . .
Which then leads to the challenge of those who revert to Job when trying to defend the idea that satan is a literal spirit entity. "If" that were to be true, then there's no way evil could approach purity and NOT be affected by the presence of Purity unless evil is stronger. Anyone here think the devil has more power than God? If we think Satan is the satan tradition claims he is, how can he approach God and not be transformed?
Unless that is the same as the "Lazarus and the Rich Man" parable in that it was never intended to become a platform to see hell as a literal place anymore than satan is a literal evil spirit nemisis agains God . . .challenging I know and if you reject this, totally understand, not here to condemn or enforce . . .just clarifyin what I'm seein . . . .
QuoteWhich then leads to the challenge of those who revert to Job when trying to defend the idea that satan is a literal spirit entity. "If" that were to be true, then there's no way evil could approach purity and NOT be affected by the presence of Purity unless evil is stronger. Anyone here think the devil has more power than God? If we think Satan is the satan tradition claims he is, how can he approach God and not be transformed?
Interesting thoughts Nathan. I'm wondering how you understand Job? I have considered in the past that the "sons of God" who came to present themselves were perhaps Job's peers perhaps at the Sabbath or a Feast Day... and that God was looking into their hearts.
Very well said Nathan :bigGrin: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Nathan on February 14, 2011, 10:04:53 PM
Quote from: pilgrim1 on February 14, 2011, 03:53:51 PM
Quote from: Hansc on February 13, 2011, 12:20:27 PM
Quote from: thinktank on February 13, 2011, 01:54:23 AM
Here is a challenge for ya.
People are taken out fo hell and the sea in the great white throne judgement, they see God.
But afterward the verse says in rev 22, the "unbelieving shall take part in the lake of fire"
So if someone does what Thomas does at the greatwhitethrone room, does that mean, they are saved there and then?
If that is the case why wouldn't everybody get saved at that point?
Maybe they will.
QuoteWhy would anybody not take that option?
All christians know the answer to that, so I can only assume that the question is rhetorical.
Going back to Thomas, Molly's point IMO was perfectly valid. The point being that Thomas did not believe until he had seen and touched Christ. Upon this, Christ still accepted him. So what faith did Thomas require? No more than those who see Christ post-mortem.
But more importantly, I believe that some here seem to be limiting what 'faith' is. Replace that word with 'trust' and a trust so profound that it implies total surrender and complete reliance on.
In that case, those who have already died can still choose to 'have faith' ie to surrender their all to the One they see before them, or they can try to resist. No problem.
I think the fact that Thomas had doubt would also explain why the most intimate things were only offered to Peter, James and John while the other nine disciples were not included. Just because we're followers of Christ doesn't mean we're receptive to the deeper things. We may say we "want" them, but as God knows our hearts, he also knows that as we're led by our heads (when it "should" be by our hearts) that we'll reject what's intended to be seen by our hearts. Only those who were the closest to Jesus, were those who saw the most . . .not that they understood it all, but it was never about knowledge, it was always about birthing truth into, and out of the heart.
As for the great white throne . . .where is it? Is it going to be a literal court where there's a literal white bench behind which God the Father sits? Or is this a SPIRITUAL experience??? And if it IS a spiritual experience, do we go by the same principles in the spiritual realm that we do here on earth? Or is what we think is the least of importance here, actually the greatest importance there? What we say is first and foremost here, is actually last there?
Reverse the logic. In this realm, if you have a clean guy standing next to a dirty guy and you have them shake hands . . .does the clean guy make the dirty guy clean? Or does the dirty guy make the clean guy dirty? Take the same question to a spiritual place . . . you will have an opposite answer.
The GREAT WHITE throne does not become dirty as dirty people approach it . . .the dirty people do not encounter the GREAT WHITE throne and walk away with no effect. The GREAT WHITE judgment throne is one that purifies all who approach it. If you're name is not in the book of LIFE you are thrown into the lake of fire THAT PURIFIES so that you name BECOMES positioned in the book of life.
Look . . .the same thing that Peter revealed when Jesus rebuked him is happening all over again. Jesus message changed direction the day Peter's name was changed.
Matthew 16
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 20Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. 21From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 22Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Jesus told them he was going to Jerusalem to die and be resurrected and all Peter heard was that Jesus was going to die. Where did he get that from? Jesus jumped all over the fact that when Peter received his first revelation from God of who Jesus was, that it couldn't come by way of flesh and blood . . .it couldn't come through the teachings, the reasoning and logic of men. And then when Peter tried to keep Jesus from fulfilling his purpose he (Peter) became an ADVERSARY (satan) to God's whole plan. Because he savored things that be of men . . .he relied on reasoning and logic over personal revelation.
This Great White Throne that the traditional church sees, is about death . .same as Peter, they can't seem to get past the death in order to see it's all actually about resurrection. Jesus didn't just come to die, he came to give us resurrection, but before he could do that, he first had to die. Those who's names are not in the book of life can't see resurrection, so they are throne "into" the all consuming fire not for the purpose of death to the individual, but for the purpose that resurrection can come to them.
In the kingdom principle, you take a clean guy who connects with a dirty guy, that which is clean has power over that which isn't. So it's the dirty guy that becomes clean . . .anyone who approaches the throne of God BECOMES transformed . . .if they don't, then that would mean their filth is greater than his purity . . .
Which then leads to the challenge of those who revert to Job when trying to defend the idea that satan is a literal spirit entity. "If" that were to be true, then there's no way evil could approach purity and NOT be affected by the presence of Purity unless evil is stronger. Anyone here think the devil has more power than God? If we think Satan is the satan tradition claims he is, how can he approach God and not be transformed?
Unless that is the same as the "Lazarus and the Rich Man" parable in that it was never intended to become a platform to see hell as a literal place anymore than satan is a literal evil spirit nemisis agains God . . .challenging I know and if you reject this, totally understand, not here to condemn or enforce . . .just clarifyin what I'm seein . . . .
:icon_flower:
for quite for so many yrs Ive seen Revelation as the LAW v Grace and Truth - and Not Unlike the Mysteries in Genesis- so many hidden pitures of the Cross -ALAS the MIND tends to think laterally always pursuing something NEW where indeed its reptition t :icon_flower:-
Blessings Bro- always enjoy what your given to sharebro :icon_flower:
Not sure where this is going to go . . .I just pulled up Job and a few things jump out right off the bat . . .see if you can see.
2 He had seven sons and three daughters, 3 and he owned seven thousand sheep, three thousand camels, five hundred yoke of oxen and five hundred donkeys, and had a large number of servants. He was the greatest man among all the people of the East.
I've always said that the Bible is primarily a book spiritual seed consisting of three things, signs, patterns and timetables. There are specific reasons why the author is being so specific with numbers and elements (gold, silver, straw, etc.) directions, colors . .on and on. first thing here for me is seven sons. The son is the one who receives the inheritance. Seven is the number of completion or fulness.. But not to get too far out with that . . .seven sons, three daughters. Total? 10. Next SEVEN thousand sheep, THREE thousand camels . .total? 10. Lastly, FIVE hundred yoke of oxen and FIVE hundred donkeys . . .equals?? TEN. . . .this is the opening of Job's experience and the platform on which his story unfolds is being established in tens . . .ten for me is connected to law. I think what's going on with this story is a breaking of Old Covenant law in that Job wasn't living according to traditional thinking . . .his friends were, but he was totally walking in faith.
And the very last word on this gives another sign . . .Job was the greatest man OF THE EAST . . .east is the sign of resurrection . . .this story, when you read it from this perspective, you will find a man who was stripped of everything earthly and yet nothing could touch his true nature that continued to burn inwardly which we see at the death of his old life, a new life resurrected from the ashes of the old . .. it's not about who satan is, it's about the resurrection of God in man.
:cloud9: :thumbsup: