Wondering

[pilgrim1]

Here is a challenge for ya.

People are taken out fo hell and the sea in the great white throne judgement, they see God.

But afterward the verse says in rev 22, the "unbelieving shall take part in the lake of fire"

So if someone does what Thomas does at the greatwhitethrone room, does that mean, they are saved there and then?

If that is the case why wouldn't everybody get saved at that point?

Maybe they will.

Why would anybody not take that option?

All christians know the answer to that, so I can only assume that the question is rhetorical.

Going back to Thomas, Molly's point IMO was perfectly valid. The point being that Thomas did not believe until he had seen and touched Christ. Upon this, Christ still accepted him. So what faith did Thomas require? No more than those who see Christ post-mortem.

But more importantly, I believe that some here seem to be limiting what 'faith' is. Replace that word with 'trust' and a trust so profound that it implies total surrender and complete reliance on.
In that case, those who have already died can still choose to 'have faith' ie to surrender their all to the One they see before them, or they can try to resist. No problem.

[Nathan]

Here is a challenge for ya.

People are taken out fo hell and the sea in the great white throne judgement, they see God.

But afterward the verse says in rev 22, the "unbelieving shall take part in the lake of fire"

So if someone does what Thomas does at the greatwhitethrone room, does that mean, they are saved there and then?

If that is the case why wouldn't everybody get saved at that point?

Maybe they will.

Why would anybody not take that option?

All christians know the answer to that, so I can only assume that the question is rhetorical.

Going back to Thomas, Molly's point IMO was perfectly valid. The point being that Thomas did not believe until he had seen and touched Christ. Upon this, Christ still accepted him. So what faith did Thomas require? No more than those who see Christ post-mortem.

But more importantly, I believe that some here seem to be limiting what 'faith' is. Replace that word with 'trust' and a trust so profound that it implies total surrender and complete reliance on.
In that case, those who have already died can still choose to 'have faith' ie to surrender their all to the One they see before them, or they can try to resist. No problem.

I think the fact that Thomas had doubt would also explain why the most intimate things were only offered to Peter, James and John while the other nine disciples were not included.  Just because we're followers of Christ doesn't mean we're receptive to the deeper things.  We may say we "want" them, but as God knows our hearts, he also knows that as we're led by our heads (when it "should" be by our hearts) that we'll reject what's intended to be seen by our hearts.  Only those who were the closest to Jesus, were those who saw the most . . .not that they understood it all, but it was never about knowledge, it was always about birthing truth into, and out of the heart.

As for the great white throne . . .where is it?  Is it going to be a literal court where there's a literal white bench behind which God the Father sits?  Or is this a SPIRITUAL experience???  And if it IS a spiritual experience, do we go by the same principles in the spiritual realm that we do here on earth?  Or is what we think is the least of importance here, actually the greatest importance there?  What we say is first and foremost here, is actually last there?

Reverse the logic.  In this realm, if you have a clean guy standing next to a dirty guy and you have them shake hands . . .does the clean guy make the dirty guy clean?  Or does the dirty guy make the clean guy dirty?  Take the same question to  a spiritual place . . . you will have an opposite answer.

The GREAT WHITE throne does not become dirty as dirty people approach it . . .the dirty people do not encounter the GREAT WHITE throne and walk away with no effect.  The GREAT WHITE judgment throne is one that purifies all who approach it.  If you're name is not in the book of LIFE you are thrown into the lake of fire THAT PURIFIES so that you name BECOMES positioned in the book of life. 

Look . . .the same thing that Peter revealed when Jesus rebuked him is happening all over again.  Jesus message changed direction the day Peter's name was changed. 

Matthew 16
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.  20Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.  21From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 22Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.  23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Jesus told them he was going to Jerusalem to die and be resurrected and all Peter heard was that Jesus was going to die.  Where did he get that from?  Jesus jumped all over the fact that when Peter received his first revelation from God of who Jesus was, that it couldn't come by way of flesh and blood . . .it couldn't come through the teachings, the reasoning and logic of men.  And then when Peter tried to keep Jesus from fulfilling his purpose he (Peter) became an ADVERSARY (satan) to God's whole plan.  Because he savored things that be of men . . .he relied on reasoning and logic over personal revelation.

This Great White Throne that the traditional church sees, is about death . .same as Peter, they can't seem to get past the death in order to see it's all actually about resurrection.  Jesus didn't just come to die, he came to give us resurrection, but before he could do that, he first had to die.  Those who's names are not in the book of life can't see resurrection, so they are throne "into" the all consuming fire not for the purpose of death to the individual, but for the purpose that resurrection can come to them.

In the kingdom principle, you take a clean guy who connects with a dirty guy, that which is clean has power over that which isn't.  So it's the dirty guy that becomes clean . . .anyone who approaches the throne of God BECOMES transformed . . .if they don't, then that would mean their filth is greater than his purity . . .

Which then leads to the challenge of those who revert to Job when trying to defend the idea that satan is a literal spirit entity.  "If" that were to be true, then there's no way evil could approach purity and NOT be affected by the presence of Purity unless evil is stronger.  Anyone here think the devil has more power than God?  If we think Satan is the satan tradition claims he is, how can he approach God and not be transformed?

Unless that is the same as the "Lazarus and the Rich Man" parable in that it was never intended to become a platform to see hell as a literal place anymore than satan is a literal evil spirit nemisis agains God . . .challenging I know and if you reject this, totally understand, not here to condemn or enforce . . .just clarifyin what I'm seein . . . .

[Beth]

Which then leads to the challenge of those who revert to Job when trying to defend the idea that satan is a literal spirit entity.  "If" that were to be true, then there's no way evil could approach purity and NOT be affected by the presence of Purity unless evil is stronger.  Anyone here think the devil has more power than God?  If we think Satan is the satan tradition claims he is, how can he approach God and not be transformed?

Interesting thoughts Nathan.  I'm wondering how you understand Job?  I have considered in the past that the "sons of God" who came to present themselves were perhaps Job's peers perhaps at the Sabbath or a Feast Day... and that God was looking into their hearts.

[micah7:9]

Very well said Nathan :bigGrin: :thumbsup:

[Taffy]

Here is a challenge for ya.

People are taken out fo hell and the sea in the great white throne judgement, they see God.

But afterward the verse says in rev 22, the "unbelieving shall take part in the lake of fire"

So if someone does what Thomas does at the greatwhitethrone room, does that mean, they are saved there and then?

If that is the case why wouldn't everybody get saved at that point?

Maybe they will.

Why would anybody not take that option?

All christians know the answer to that, so I can only assume that the question is rhetorical.

Going back to Thomas, Molly's point IMO was perfectly valid. The point being that Thomas did not believe until he had seen and touched Christ. Upon this, Christ still accepted him. So what faith did Thomas require? No more than those who see Christ post-mortem.

But more importantly, I believe that some here seem to be limiting what 'faith' is. Replace that word with 'trust' and a trust so profound that it implies total surrender and complete reliance on.
In that case, those who have already died can still choose to 'have faith' ie to surrender their all to the One they see before them, or they can try to resist. No problem.

I think the fact that Thomas had doubt would also explain why the most intimate things were only offered to Peter, James and John while the other nine disciples were not included.  Just because we're followers of Christ doesn't mean we're receptive to the deeper things.  We may say we "want" them, but as God knows our hearts, he also knows that as we're led by our heads (when it "should" be by our hearts) that we'll reject what's intended to be seen by our hearts.  Only those who were the closest to Jesus, were those who saw the most . . .not that they understood it all, but it was never about knowledge, it was always about birthing truth into, and out of the heart.

As for the great white throne . . .where is it?  Is it going to be a literal court where there's a literal white bench behind which God the Father sits?  Or is this a SPIRITUAL experience???  And if it IS a spiritual experience, do we go by the same principles in the spiritual realm that we do here on earth?  Or is what we think is the least of importance here, actually the greatest importance there?  What we say is first and foremost here, is actually last there?

Reverse the logic.  In this realm, if you have a clean guy standing next to a dirty guy and you have them shake hands . . .does the clean guy make the dirty guy clean?  Or does the dirty guy make the clean guy dirty?  Take the same question to  a spiritual place . . . you will have an opposite answer.

The GREAT WHITE throne does not become dirty as dirty people approach it . . .the dirty people do not encounter the GREAT WHITE throne and walk away with no effect.  The GREAT WHITE judgment throne is one that purifies all who approach it.  If you're name is not in the book of LIFE you are thrown into the lake of fire THAT PURIFIES so that you name BECOMES positioned in the book of life. 

Look . . .the same thing that Peter revealed when Jesus rebuked him is happening all over again.  Jesus message changed direction the day Peter's name was changed. 

Matthew 16
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.  20Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.  21From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 22Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.  23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Jesus told them he was going to Jerusalem to die and be resurrected and all Peter heard was that Jesus was going to die.  Where did he get that from?  Jesus jumped all over the fact that when Peter received his first revelation from God of who Jesus was, that it couldn't come by way of flesh and blood . . .it couldn't come through the teachings, the reasoning and logic of men.  And then when Peter tried to keep Jesus from fulfilling his purpose he (Peter) became an ADVERSARY (satan) to God's whole plan.  Because he savored things that be of men . . .he relied on reasoning and logic over personal revelation.

This Great White Throne that the traditional church sees, is about death . .same as Peter, they can't seem to get past the death in order to see it's all actually about resurrection.  Jesus didn't just come to die, he came to give us resurrection, but before he could do that, he first had to die.  Those who's names are not in the book of life can't see resurrection, so they are throne "into" the all consuming fire not for the purpose of death to the individual, but for the purpose that resurrection can come to them.

In the kingdom principle, you take a clean guy who connects with a dirty guy, that which is clean has power over that which isn't.  So it's the dirty guy that becomes clean . . .anyone who approaches the throne of God BECOMES transformed . . .if they don't, then that would mean their filth is greater than his purity . . .

Which then leads to the challenge of those who revert to Job when trying to defend the idea that satan is a literal spirit entity.  "If" that were to be true, then there's no way evil could approach purity and NOT be affected by the presence of Purity unless evil is stronger.  Anyone here think the devil has more power than God?  If we think Satan is the satan tradition claims he is, how can he approach God and not be transformed?

Unless that is the same as the "Lazarus and the Rich Man" parable in that it was never intended to become a platform to see hell as a literal place anymore than satan is a literal evil spirit nemisis agains God . . .challenging I know and if you reject this, totally understand, not here to condemn or enforce . . .just clarifyin what I'm seein . . . .

:icon_flower:
for quite for so many yrs Ive seen Revelation as the LAW v Grace and Truth - and Not Unlike the Mysteries in Genesis- so many hidden pitures of the Cross -ALAS the MIND tends to think laterally  always pursuing something NEW where indeed its  reptition  t :icon_flower:-

Blessings Bro- always enjoy what  your given to sharebro :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

Not sure where this is going to go . . .I just pulled up Job and a few things jump out right off the bat . . .see if you can see.

2 He had seven sons and three daughters, 3 and he owned seven thousand sheep, three thousand camels, five hundred yoke of oxen and five hundred donkeys, and had a large number of servants. He was the greatest man among all the people of the East.

I've always said that the Bible is primarily a book spiritual seed consisting of three things, signs, patterns and timetables.  There are specific reasons why the author is being so specific with numbers and elements (gold, silver, straw, etc.) directions, colors . .on and on.  first thing here for me is seven sons.  The son is the one who receives the inheritance.  Seven is the number of completion or fulness..  But not to get too far out with that . . .seven sons, three daughters.  Total?  10.  Next SEVEN thousand sheep, THREE thousand camels . .total? 10.  Lastly, FIVE hundred yoke of oxen and FIVE hundred donkeys . . .equals??  TEN. . . .this is the opening of Job's experience and the platform on which his story unfolds is being established in tens . . .ten for me is connected to law.  I think what's going on with this story is a breaking of Old Covenant law in that Job wasn't living according to traditional thinking . . .his friends were, but he was totally walking in faith.

And the very last word on this gives another sign . . .Job was the greatest man OF THE EAST . . .east is the sign of resurrection . . .this story, when you read it from this perspective, you will find a man who was stripped of everything earthly and yet nothing could touch his true nature that continued to burn inwardly which we see at the death of his old life, a new life resurrected from the ashes of the old . .. it's not about who satan is, it's about the resurrection of God in man.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: :thumbsup: